Guest guest Posted November 29, 2008 Report Share Posted November 29, 2008 Dear Varun ji, Working out a 35 year cycle will not be of any use unless it's phal (result)is also available. Does the Lal Kitab describe the phal of the dasha and the antar dasha for this 35 year cycle ? For example mercury has a dasha period of two years, and within this dasha period moon, mars and jupiter will have their antar dasha of equal amounts. Now how would one find out the result of the moon's antar within the mercury dasha under this 35 year cycle of Lal Kitab. Sincerely, H S Gill , " varun_trvd " <varun_trvd wrote: > > Respected Gill Saheb > > Well let's have a look at the 'grah ka daura' system. The premises of > the solution are that: > > [a] which ever grah reaches the 1st house first will be taken as the > operating planet from that year onwards for the 35 year dasha cycle. > > in case there are more than one grah reaching the throne [ 1st > house ] then the grah starting the dasha will be decided according to > the sequence of planets laid down for the 35 year dasha cycle. For > example if both venus and the Saturn reach the first house then it is > the venus which will be taken as the operating planet because the > venus has a precedence over Saturn in the sequence. > > [c] If a planet reaches the 1st house in the 3rd year then the > initial two years of the native will be supposed to be under the > dasha of the planet preceding that reached planet in the sequence. > > Now let us take up an example horoscope and see what happens : > > Horoscope : > > Fourth house : Saturn, rahu > Fifth house : moon, mercury, venus > Sixth house : sun , mars, jupiter > Tenth house : ketu > > [ a common vedic astrology partial kal amrit / kal sarp horoscope] > > Saturn and rahu will be the first planets to reach the 1st house in > the 4th year. Since the Saturn has precedence over rahu in the 35 > year dasha cycle, therefore it will be the Saturn which will be > assumed to operate from the 4th year till the 9th year. Then Rahu > will take over for 6 years till the 15th year and then Ketu and so > on. > > So far so good; no problem. > > Now let us work out the operating planets from birth till the 4th > year before the Saturn takes over. > The preceding planet to the Saturn in the 35 year dasha cycle is > mercury. Now let us see whether mercury will be operative or not. If > you notice mercury is a dormant planet ‘soya hua grah’. Now how can > mercury be an operating planet if he himself is not awakened? > Let us move to the next one preceding the mercury and that one is > Mars. Unfortunately mars too is dormant. You will notice that we will > have to move down all the way to Ketu because all the planets in > between are dormant. > Therefore ketu will be the operating planet for the 1st, 2nd and the > 3rd year of the native. > > Thus the 35 year cycle of the native based on ‘grah ka daura’ > solution will look like this : > > Ketu : 1 to 3 > Saturn : 4 to 9 > Rahu : 10 to 15 > Ketu : 16 to 18 > Jupiter : 19 to 24 > > And so on…. > > Did you notice the anomaly? > > When we say that it is a 35 year cycle, it implies that a planet will > repeat itself only after the cycle of 35 years is complete. In the > above cycle for the native Ketu repeats itself much before the cycle > is completed. Secondly the sequence had to be altered, instead of > mercury preceding the Saturn, it is the ketu operating before Saturn. > > Therefore the grah ka daura solution can be used only if you are > prepared to accept that : > > [ a ] a planet can become operative in the 35year dasha cycle even > though it is dormant or soya hua for all other purposes in the > horoscope and has yet to awaken. > > [ b ] That the sanctity of the term cycle [ chakra ] has no meaning > or is not relevant as far as the 35 year dasha is concerned and a > planet can become operative even if the cycle is not complete. > Remember the Lal Kitab talks about quite a few cycles in various > other contexts. > > Others might accept these two. At least we do not accept them. We > would prefer to continue with the 35 year dasha system drawn on the > principles of conventional Vinshottari dasha system which is not only > shatra sammat but yields satisfactory results. > > Every one according to his own experience and rationality. > > Regards, > > Varun Trivedi > > > > > , " gill_hs2005 " > <gill_hs2005@> wrote: > > > > Dear Varun ji, > > > > There is yet another alternative suggested. The 35 year dasha > chakra > > to begin with the planet which starts its daura first i.e. the > planet > > which first reaches the throne or the 1st house. Your take on it. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > H S Gill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " varun_trvd " > > <varun_trvd@> wrote: > > > > > > Respected Umesh ji, > > > > > > We have a few reservations about this ‘janma samay’ solution. If > we > > > accept that then all births taking place at night [ specially > dark > > > nights ] or on cloudy days will have Saturn as the starting > planet. > > > We may not have so many cloudy days in India but in the higher > > > latitudes cloudy days are very common. There would be a practical > > > difficulty too in finding out whether it was cloudy or not on the > > day > > > the native was born. > > > > > > If we accept the ‘janma samay’ theory then more than half the > > > population will start it’s 35 year dasha with Saturn. This, to > us, > > > does not sound logical. > > > > > > The same will be true if we accept the janma din as the starting > > > point. In that case no body will start his dasha with Rahu or > Ketu. > > > That again doesn’t sound logical. > > > > > > Therefore we would like to go by the logical method of working > out > > > the 35 year dasha system of the Lal Kitab on the same basis as > > > Vinshottari dasha is worked out. > > > > > > With great regards and respect, > > > > > > Varun Trivedi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Umesh Sharma " > > > <mudit982001@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Respected Varun ji, > > > > > > > > Sir, in case of " 35 sala Chakkar " My observation is below > > > > > > > > Pt. Ji wrote in:- > > > > > > > > Aarmaan no. 113 A, Chapter: " EK DIN KA HAAL " > > > > LK-Edition-1940 " > > > > > > > > 1. Har Ek Vyakati Ki Kismat Ka Haal " Janam Samay Ke Grah " se > > > > shuru hota hey. > > > > > > > > Chapter " PAHLE SAPTAH MAIN " > > > > > > > > K. TAKHAT KE MAALIK GRAHON KE LIYE: ( Yani Varshaphal vali > Talika) > > > > > > > > " JANAM SAMAY KA GRAH SABSE PAHLE SHURU HONE VALA GINEGAIN " > > > > Uskey baad Lalkitab page no. 7(Pt. Ji ne yah havala 1939 vali > > kitab > > > ka > > > > diya hey jismain unhoney grahon ka kraram (Sequence) di hey) > par > > > diye > > > > huey karram se baki grahon ko likhaingey. > > > > > > > > I try to explain this method with below example > > > > > > > > Date of Birth: 15-09-1985 Time:-15:20 Day: Sunday Place: Delhi > > > > > > > > Janam Din Ka Grah- Surya > > > > > > > > Janam Samay ka Grah- Venus > > > > > > > > Now The sequence Start from > > > > > > > > Venus 3yrs +Jupiter 6yrs+Sun 2yrs+Moon 1yrs+ Venus 3yrs+Mars > > > 6yrs+Merc > > > > 2yrs+Shani 6yrs+Rahu 6yrs+Ketu 3yrs=Total-59yra. The First > cucle > > of > > > > 35th year is running upto 38th years. Iind cycle Start from its > > own > > > > sequence that is start with Jupiter. > > > > > > > > In this contest you can read: " 35 SAALA CHAKKAR " in 1952 Edition > > > > : Pt. Ji wrote " Grahon ka 35 saala chakkar aur Insaan ki Umar > ka > > 35 > > > > saala chakkar do alag alag batain hain. " > > > > > > > > In this regard pt. Ji given a example in this chapter in which > > pt. > > > Ji > > > > wrote about this " Ki eska pehla grah brahaspati ki bajay Shani > > > shuru ho > > > > aur Janamdin ki bajay 7vain saal se shuru ho. Ab tamam grah 35 > > saal > > > main > > > > hi apna daura poora kar lengey. Jab aakhiri grah ka aakhiri din > > > hoga us > > > > vakat Insaan ki Umar 35 saal ka daura jama 6 saal, yaani kul > umar > > 41 > > > > saal hey aur doosra chakkar janamDin valley grah ki doosri > chaal > > > hogi. > > > > > > > > I am not claim that I am right but my understanding is this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Umesh Sharma > > > > > > > > , " varun_trvd " > > > > <varun_trvd@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Respected Gill saheb, > > > > > > > > > > Any thing explained maladroitly [ clumsily ] is far better > than > > > > > explained patently wrongly. We are not surprised at the > comment > > > > > because any thing to do with Jyotish Ganit would appear > clumsy [ > > > > > maladroit ] to those who have never studied it. Any way a > > > > > mathematical solution is any day better than any other > solution > > > > > because it is objective and logical. > > > > > > > > > > As you have informed, a question has already been raised as > to > > > which > > > > > planet will have its daura during the years prior to when a > > planet > > > > > comes to the 1st house. > > > > > > > > > > The other question which would also need attention is what > > > happens if > > > > > there are four planets getting to the 1st house instead of one > > > > > planet. In that case will the planet of daura be decided > through > > > > > drawing of lots? {sic}. > > > > > > > > > > Suppose we have mercury, venus, Saturn, and rahu in the 3rd > > house > > > > > and all of them move to the 1st house [ varshphal kundali] in > > the > > > 3rd > > > > > year, then which of these will be taken as a planet of > daura ; > > > and on > > > > > what grounds? To say that a qayam grah out of these four will > > be > > > the > > > > > one to start the daura will be very naïve and might invite > > further > > > > > questions. > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > Varun Trivedi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " gill_hs2005 " > > > > > gill_hs2005@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Sir, > > > > > > > > > > > > Is it possible that the start of 35 year cycle could be > taken > > to > > > > > begin > > > > > > with the planet which reaches the 1st house? I mean to say > > that > > > if > > > > > the > > > > > > first two houses are unoccupied and the third house has a > > planet > > > > > which > > > > > > will ascend the throne during the 3rd year in the varsh phal > > > > > kundali, > > > > > > then should we take that planet as the starting point? > > > > > > > > > > > > A question has already been raised as to which planet will > be > > > taken > > > > > to > > > > > > operate in daura for the initial two years. > > > > > > > > > > > > Incidentally, the procedure given for working out the 35 > year > > > cycle > > > > > in > > > > > > the file section of the group has been described as a > > > > ‘maladroit’ > > > > > > attempt. > > > > > > > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > > > > > > > > > H S Gill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2008 Report Share Posted November 30, 2008 Respected Gill saheb, You are right that working out a dasha and antar dasha would be futile unless you have the results [ phal ] for them ; you should know what the antardasha of moon would mean within the dasha of mercury. The Lal Kitab does not describe the results [ phal ] of the dasha or the antardasha for the 35 year dasha cycle. Unlike the results for Vinshottari dasha, antar dasha, and the pratyantar dasha for which enormous amount of literature is available, there is no literature available for the results of the Lal Kitab 35 year dasha system. The reason, as we believe, for not giving the results for the 35 year Lal Kitab dasha could be that the dasha had to be worked out like a vinshottari dasha and the results of the vinshottari dasha would be applicable. At least we follow this procedure because the literature available for Vinshottari dasha phal is so exhaustive and enormous that it serves our purpose. As for others, we do not know where they find the dasha phal from; the dasha phal which would be applicable to the Lal Kitab dasha system worked out differently from the vinshottari dasha system. Once again, each according to his own experience; and each according to his own reason. Regards, Varun Trivedi , " gill_hs2005 " <gill_hs2005 wrote: > > Dear Varun ji, > > Working out a 35 year cycle will not be of any use unless it's phal > (result)is also available. Does the Lal Kitab describe the phal of > the dasha and the antar dasha for this 35 year cycle ? For example > mercury has a dasha period of two years, and within this dasha period > moon, mars and jupiter will have their antar dasha of equal amounts. > Now how would one find out the result of the moon's antar within the > mercury dasha under this 35 year cycle of Lal Kitab. > > Sincerely, > > H S Gill > > > , " varun_trvd " > <varun_trvd@> wrote: > > > > Respected Gill Saheb > > > > Well let's have a look at the 'grah ka daura' system. The premises > of > > the solution are that: > > > > [a] which ever grah reaches the 1st house first will be taken as > the > > operating planet from that year onwards for the 35 year dasha cycle. > > > > in case there are more than one grah reaching the throne [ 1st > > house ] then the grah starting the dasha will be decided according > to > > the sequence of planets laid down for the 35 year dasha cycle. For > > example if both venus and the Saturn reach the first house then it > is > > the venus which will be taken as the operating planet because the > > venus has a precedence over Saturn in the sequence. > > > > [c] If a planet reaches the 1st house in the 3rd year then the > > initial two years of the native will be supposed to be under the > > dasha of the planet preceding that reached planet in the sequence. > > > > Now let us take up an example horoscope and see what happens : > > > > Horoscope : > > > > Fourth house : Saturn, rahu > > Fifth house : moon, mercury, venus > > Sixth house : sun , mars, jupiter > > Tenth house : ketu > > > > [ a common vedic astrology partial kal amrit / kal sarp horoscope] > > > > Saturn and rahu will be the first planets to reach the 1st house in > > the 4th year. Since the Saturn has precedence over rahu in the 35 > > year dasha cycle, therefore it will be the Saturn which will be > > assumed to operate from the 4th year till the 9th year. Then Rahu > > will take over for 6 years till the 15th year and then Ketu and so > > on. > > > > So far so good; no problem. > > > > Now let us work out the operating planets from birth till the 4th > > year before the Saturn takes over. > > The preceding planet to the Saturn in the 35 year dasha cycle is > > mercury. Now let us see whether mercury will be operative or not. > If > > you notice mercury is a dormant planet ‘soya hua grah’. Now how can > > mercury be an operating planet if he himself is not awakened? > > Let us move to the next one preceding the mercury and that one is > > Mars. Unfortunately mars too is dormant. You will notice that we > will > > have to move down all the way to Ketu because all the planets in > > between are dormant. > > Therefore ketu will be the operating planet for the 1st, 2nd and > the > > 3rd year of the native. > > > > Thus the 35 year cycle of the native based on ‘grah ka daura’ > > solution will look like this : > > > > Ketu : 1 to 3 > > Saturn : 4 to 9 > > Rahu : 10 to 15 > > Ketu : 16 to 18 > > Jupiter : 19 to 24 > > > > And so on…. > > > > Did you notice the anomaly? > > > > When we say that it is a 35 year cycle, it implies that a planet > will > > repeat itself only after the cycle of 35 years is complete. In the > > above cycle for the native Ketu repeats itself much before the > cycle > > is completed. Secondly the sequence had to be altered, instead of > > mercury preceding the Saturn, it is the ketu operating before > Saturn. > > > > Therefore the grah ka daura solution can be used only if you are > > prepared to accept that : > > > > [ a ] a planet can become operative in the 35year dasha cycle even > > though it is dormant or soya hua for all other purposes in the > > horoscope and has yet to awaken. > > > > [ b ] That the sanctity of the term cycle [ chakra ] has no meaning > > or is not relevant as far as the 35 year dasha is concerned and a > > planet can become operative even if the cycle is not complete. > > Remember the Lal Kitab talks about quite a few cycles in various > > other contexts. > > > > Others might accept these two. At least we do not accept them. We > > would prefer to continue with the 35 year dasha system drawn on the > > principles of conventional Vinshottari dasha system which is not > only > > shatra sammat but yields satisfactory results. > > > > Every one according to his own experience and rationality. > > > > Regards, > > > > Varun Trivedi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " gill_hs2005 " > > <gill_hs2005@> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Varun ji, > > > > > > There is yet another alternative suggested. The 35 year dasha > > chakra > > > to begin with the planet which starts its daura first i.e. the > > planet > > > which first reaches the throne or the 1st house. Your take on it. > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > > > H S Gill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " varun_trvd " > > > <varun_trvd@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Respected Umesh ji, > > > > > > > > We have a few reservations about this ‘janma samay’ solution. > If > > we > > > > accept that then all births taking place at night [ specially > > dark > > > > nights ] or on cloudy days will have Saturn as the starting > > planet. > > > > We may not have so many cloudy days in India but in the higher > > > > latitudes cloudy days are very common. There would be a > practical > > > > difficulty too in finding out whether it was cloudy or not on > the > > > day > > > > the native was born. > > > > > > > > If we accept the ‘janma samay’ theory then more than half the > > > > population will start it’s 35 year dasha with Saturn. This, to > > us, > > > > does not sound logical. > > > > > > > > The same will be true if we accept the janma din as the > starting > > > > point. In that case no body will start his dasha with Rahu or > > Ketu. > > > > That again doesn’t sound logical. > > > > > > > > Therefore we would like to go by the logical method of working > > out > > > > the 35 year dasha system of the Lal Kitab on the same basis as > > > > Vinshottari dasha is worked out. > > > > > > > > With great regards and respect, > > > > > > > > Varun Trivedi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Umesh Sharma " > > > > <mudit982001@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Respected Varun ji, > > > > > > > > > > Sir, in case of " 35 sala Chakkar " My observation is below > > > > > > > > > > Pt. Ji wrote in:- > > > > > > > > > > Aarmaan no. 113 A, Chapter: " EK DIN KA HAAL " > > > > > LK-Edition-1940 " > > > > > > > > > > 1. Har Ek Vyakati Ki Kismat Ka Haal " Janam Samay Ke Grah " > se > > > > > shuru hota hey. > > > > > > > > > > Chapter " PAHLE SAPTAH MAIN " > > > > > > > > > > K. TAKHAT KE MAALIK GRAHON KE LIYE: ( Yani Varshaphal vali > > Talika) > > > > > > > > > > " JANAM SAMAY KA GRAH SABSE PAHLE SHURU HONE VALA GINEGAIN " > > > > > Uskey baad Lalkitab page no. 7(Pt. Ji ne yah havala 1939 vali > > > kitab > > > > ka > > > > > diya hey jismain unhoney grahon ka kraram (Sequence) di hey) > > par > > > > diye > > > > > huey karram se baki grahon ko likhaingey. > > > > > > > > > > I try to explain this method with below example > > > > > > > > > > Date of Birth: 15-09-1985 Time:-15:20 Day: Sunday Place: > Delhi > > > > > > > > > > Janam Din Ka Grah- Surya > > > > > > > > > > Janam Samay ka Grah- Venus > > > > > > > > > > Now The sequence Start from > > > > > > > > > > Venus 3yrs +Jupiter 6yrs+Sun 2yrs+Moon 1yrs+ Venus 3yrs+Mars > > > > 6yrs+Merc > > > > > 2yrs+Shani 6yrs+Rahu 6yrs+Ketu 3yrs=Total-59yra. The First > > cucle > > > of > > > > > 35th year is running upto 38th years. Iind cycle Start from > its > > > own > > > > > sequence that is start with Jupiter. > > > > > > > > > > In this contest you can read: " 35 SAALA CHAKKAR " in 1952 > Edition > > > > > : Pt. Ji wrote " Grahon ka 35 saala chakkar aur Insaan ki > Umar > > ka > > > 35 > > > > > saala chakkar do alag alag batain hain. " > > > > > > > > > > In this regard pt. Ji given a example in this chapter in > which > > > pt. > > > > Ji > > > > > wrote about this " Ki eska pehla grah brahaspati ki bajay > Shani > > > > shuru ho > > > > > aur Janamdin ki bajay 7vain saal se shuru ho. Ab tamam grah > 35 > > > saal > > > > main > > > > > hi apna daura poora kar lengey. Jab aakhiri grah ka aakhiri > din > > > > hoga us > > > > > vakat Insaan ki Umar 35 saal ka daura jama 6 saal, yaani kul > > umar > > > 41 > > > > > saal hey aur doosra chakkar janamDin valley grah ki doosri > > chaal > > > > hogi. > > > > > > > > > > I am not claim that I am right but my understanding is this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Umesh Sharma > > > > > > > > > > , " varun_trvd " > > > > > <varun_trvd@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Respected Gill saheb, > > > > > > > > > > > > Any thing explained maladroitly [ clumsily ] is far better > > than > > > > > > explained patently wrongly. We are not surprised at the > > comment > > > > > > because any thing to do with Jyotish Ganit would appear > > clumsy [ > > > > > > maladroit ] to those who have never studied it. Any way a > > > > > > mathematical solution is any day better than any other > > solution > > > > > > because it is objective and logical. > > > > > > > > > > > > As you have informed, a question has already been raised as > > to > > > > which > > > > > > planet will have its daura during the years prior to when a > > > planet > > > > > > comes to the 1st house. > > > > > > > > > > > > The other question which would also need attention is what > > > > happens if > > > > > > there are four planets getting to the 1st house instead of > one > > > > > > planet. In that case will the planet of daura be decided > > through > > > > > > drawing of lots? {sic}. > > > > > > > > > > > > Suppose we have mercury, venus, Saturn, and rahu in the 3rd > > > house > > > > > > and all of them move to the 1st house [ varshphal kundali] > in > > > the > > > > 3rd > > > > > > year, then which of these will be taken as a planet of > > daura ; > > > > and on > > > > > > what grounds? To say that a qayam grah out of these four > will > > > be > > > > the > > > > > > one to start the daura will be very naïve and might invite > > > further > > > > > > questions. > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > Varun Trivedi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " gill_hs2005 " > > > > > > gill_hs2005@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sir, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Is it possible that the start of 35 year cycle could be > > taken > > > to > > > > > > begin > > > > > > > with the planet which reaches the 1st house? I mean to > say > > > that > > > > if > > > > > > the > > > > > > > first two houses are unoccupied and the third house has a > > > planet > > > > > > which > > > > > > > will ascend the throne during the 3rd year in the varsh > phal > > > > > > kundali, > > > > > > > then should we take that planet as the starting point? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A question has already been raised as to which planet > will > > be > > > > taken > > > > > > to > > > > > > > operate in daura for the initial two years. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Incidentally, the procedure given for working out the 35 > > year > > > > cycle > > > > > > in > > > > > > > the file section of the group has been described as a > > > > > ‘maladroit’ > > > > > > > attempt. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > H S Gill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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