Guest guest Posted November 21, 2003 Report Share Posted November 21, 2003 Therese, An easy way to do the Novien... Have the machine do the navamsa and add a trine to all positions. Fagan is only one book on the shelf. Happily a big fat groaning book that buckles the shelf, but still just one. Dark Star (* - Therese Hamilton wrote: > At 01:54 PM 11/19/03 -0800, Juan wrote: > > > >My Suggestion is to erect a Novienic Chart for > >yourself to better understand your " self " and your > > " sign " ... If you don't know how to do that, send me > >the degree and minute of your Moon's position and I > >will inform you what your Moon's Novenic position is. > > I think some people on this list perhaps don't know what a novien chart is. > Cyril Fagan believed that the 9th harmonic chart should begin with Taurus > rather than Aries. He called this chart the 'novien.' In India the navamsa > chart is used. Both these words mean '9th harmonic,' that is, the zodiac is > divided into nine smaller zodiacs. Each zodiac sign contains nine smaller > signs. Each of these small signs is 3 degrees 20 minutes in length. > > Using the navamsa chart it's very important which planets in the navamsa > cross over to natal planets. For example, a person may appear to be very > Martian, but Mars does not seem to be strong in the natal chart. In this > case the navamsa postion of Mars is likely to cross over to the natal Moon > or the natal ascendant. Each navamsa sign is like a little bell that rings > to the same tone as the larger natal sign. > > As far as I know Fagan paid the most attention to the Moon's novien sign. > This will be different than the Moon's navamsa sign. The two > interpretations won't agree with each other. Fagan's diciples don't accept > the navamsa chart and Jyotish astrologers don't look at the novien chart. > > Though Fagan invented the novien, it has not been used very much. In > contrast, the navamsa has been used in India for two thousand years. > > >Libra is an " air " sign and as such demonstrates a > > " mental persona " . Whereas a water sign would emphasize > >emotion etc.... the elements contribute to > >understanding signs... > > Juan, this surprised me because Fagan ridiculed any kind of sign categories > such as the element names being given to the triads or triplicities. Did he > change his mind as he grew older? If the 'air' signs are mental in the > Tropoical zodiac, how can they be the same in the sidereal zodiac?? Please > explain. > > > We are all students and we are all teachers, whether > >we are conscious or not in our actions... > > True!! That's what makes astrology such a universal language. We are all > constantly learning from each other. > > Therese > > > " How can Pluto be in Sagittarius when it's so close to Antares? " ----- > > Post message: > Subscribe: - > Un: - > List owner: -owner > > Shortcut URL to this page: > / > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2003 Report Share Posted November 21, 2003 --- Therese Hamilton <eastwest wrote: > At 01:54 PM 11/19/03 -0800, Juan wrote: > > > >My Suggestion is to erect a Novienic Chart for > >yourself to better understand your " self " and your > > " sign " ... If you don't know how to do that, send me > >the degree and minute of your Moon's position and I > >will inform you what your Moon's Novienic position > is. > > I think some people on this list perhaps don't know > what a novien chart is. Theresa... I believe if the people on this list want to know what a novien chart is (and what Fagan had to say about them) that they read what he wrote on the subject. Your interpretation lacks his perspective of rationale and detailed information. For those who are interested I suggest reading " Primer of Sidereal Astrology " . > Cyril Fagan believed that the 9th harmonic chart > should begin with Taurus > rather than Aries. He called this chart the > 'novien.' In India the navamsa > chart is used. Both these words mean '9th harmonic,' > that is, the zodiac is > divided into nine smaller zodiacs. Each zodiac sign > contains nine smaller > signs. Each of these small signs is 3 degrees 20 > minutes in length. > > Using the navamsa chart it's very important which > planets in the navamsa > cross over to natal planets. For example, a person > may appear to be very > Martian, but Mars does not seem to be strong in the > natal chart. In this > case the navamsa postion of Mars is likely to cross > over to the natal Moon > or the natal ascendant. Each navamsa sign is like a > little bell that rings > to the same tone as the larger natal sign. > > As far as I know Fagan paid the most attention to > the Moon's novien sign. > This will be different than the Moon's navamsa sign. > The two > interpretations won't agree with each other. Fagan's > diciples don't accept > the navamsa chart and Jyotish astrologers don't look > at the novien chart. > Therese... Its apparent that you are biased in your opinion and that you favor the navamsa chart to a novien. Have you ever worked with noviens? Can you demonstrate how the navamsa chart is superior to the novien? Your inference that one must be a disciple of Fagan suggests that Siderealists consider him a " God " . That's very presumptuous on your part. > Though Fagan invented the novien, it has not been > used very much. In > contrast, the navamsa has been used in India for two > thousand years. > Such is enlightenment... Practiced daily and not only by Indians.... Open your heart and you to may see the light.... > >Libra is an " air " sign and as such demonstrates a > > " mental persona " . Whereas a water sign would > emphasize > >emotion etc.... the elements contribute to > >understanding signs... > > Juan, this surprised me because Fagan ridiculed any > kind of sign categories > such as the element names being given to the triads > or triplicities. Did he > change his mind as he grew older? If the 'air' signs > are mental in the > Tropoical zodiac, how can they be the same in the > sidereal zodiac?? Please > explain. > Theresa... Fagan did not ridicule every kind of sign category. Suggest you read some Carl Stahl and re-read Fagan... When he got on his bully pulpit he did a lot of ridicule... He authored a great deal of perspective as well. If the air signs are mental in the Tropical Zodiac why can't they be the same in the Sidereal? Keep in mind that the construction or rationale of any sign requires observation and the integration of symbolism. The signs are changing their meaning. Its happening within the Tropical as well..... and... besides... you have my opinion... what more does any of us have? The Idea of attempting to define an individuals " sun sign " (which happens to be in a background house) when a planet or the moon of a different sign embraces the ascendant is way difficult. Any planet or light, with its inherent energies on an angle has the potential of demonstrating its " sign " better than anything else. > > We are all students and we are all teachers, > whether > >we are conscious or not in our actions... > > True!! That's what makes astrology such a universal > language. We are all > constantly learning from each other. > > Therese > Hopefully you learned something! Juan > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2003 Report Share Posted November 21, 2003 At 01:16 AM 11/21/03 -0800, Juan wrote: >I believe if the people on this list want to know what >a novien chart is (and what Fagan had to say about >them) that they read what he wrote on the subject... For those who are interested >I suggest reading " Primer of Sidereal Astrology " . ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Is that book still in print? I have a 1971 edition-spiral bound. The novien isn't mentioned, and the primer is full of math, which today's astrologers have no patience with. We now bow down to the mighty computer. There is very little on natal interpretaion in the Primer. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Therese... Its apparent that you are biased in your >opinion and that you favor the navamsa chart to a >novien. Have you ever worked with noviens? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Yes, I have. How much have you worked with the Lahiri ayanamsa and the navamsa chart?? I worked with the sidereal system and novien in the 70s or early 80s. Hey--I hung out with Ken Bowser, Bert Fannin and other mighty sidereal ones from that era who lived in and around San Francisco. They paid me the supreme honor of visiting at my house. We had many stimulating discussions. This is where I learned sidereal astrology. This is when I made the change from the Tropical zodiac. I ended up rejecting the novien in favor of the navamsa. And I found that the Lahiri ayanamsa gave better results than the Fagan value. I began writing articles for the sidereal magazines in the 70s. I've been around for awhile, getting to be an old crone actually. But we need brand new research projects because that was in the pre-computer days and we couldn't work with hundreds of horoscopes as we can today. A few horoscopes don't prove anything at all. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Can you >demonstrate how the navamsa chart is superior to the >novien? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I can demonstrate that it works in a particular way. But rather than argue it's best to give actual horoscope examples we can all learn and benefit from. Why don't we try that? Fagan talked about the actual signs having specific meanings. This is true to some extent with the navamsa, but equally important is the sign overlap between natal and navamsa charts and planets conjunct the navamsa Moon. There are certain havamsa patterns in the horoscopes of politicians, painters, Gay men, lesbians, computer programmers and so forth. I have some really good painter-politican examples, but can't post them right now because a list member is trying to sort out the two kinds of charts as a test experiment. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Your inference that one must be a disciple of >Fagan suggests that Siderealists consider him a " God " . >That's very presumptuous on your part. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I believe that you read that into my posts. I don't believe I indicated anything along those lines. I have said that I myself don't regard Cyril Fagan as the end authority on the sidereal zodiac. I believe his view was only one view, and, as I see it, it was sometimes not based on common sense and fact. This is largely because some of the recent translations of Mesoptamian texts weren't available when Fagan was alive. He had to draw his own conclusions based on what was available to him. For example, because the old lunar houses began with the Pleiades, Fagan concluded that the Hindu zodiac once began with Taurus. Thus, he began the noviens from Taurus. (Fagan is definitely off on a tangent in " Beginning of the Hindu Zodiac " in ASTROLOGICAL ORIGINS.) Then elsewhere he decided that the zodiac began with Libra because the Egyptian symbol for Libra resembled the sunrise--or actually represented the sunrise. I forget which. (Someone can enlighten me on exactly what Fagan said about Libra and the zodiac.) Fagan was brilliant in his way. But sometimes he was wrong. What I observe on this list is that newer members as well as myself demonstrate some knowledge of different astrological systems. And we ask questions. But the died-in-the-wool followers of the Fagan school don't seem to be able to see into the other systems. Juan, aren't you sure your system is the best one? Isn't that why this list was started in the first place, to let astrologers know about the Western sidereal system of astrology? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Open your heart and you to may see the >light.... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Juan, why don't we move from theory to fact?? Let's take the novien and navmasa positions of some well known people and talk about how they operate in the chart.... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Fagan did not ridicule every kind of sign category. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ In a day or two I'll post here an article a list member recently sent me authored by Fagan on this topic. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >If the air signs are mental in the Tropical Zodiac why >can't they be the same in the Sidereal? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Because if a specific zone of the zodiac has a specific vibration or meaning, two opposing interpretations can't exist together. It would be like oil and water occupying the same space. Can't be done. Well, maybe a physicist could make it happen somehow. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >The signs are changing their meaning. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Can you give an example of how one of the zodiacal signs is changing its meaning? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ... you have my opinion... what more does any of us have? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ We now have many thousands of timed horoscopes at our fingertips to research. This has just happened in the last few years with the Rodden AstroDatabank. We also have the internet where discussions like this can take plance. None of this existed a few decades ago. None of this existed when Cyril Fagan was alive. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >The Idea of attempting to define an individuals " sun >sign " (which happens to be in a background house) when >a planet or the moon of a different sign embraces the >ascendant is way difficult. Any planet or light, with >its inherent energies on an angle has the potential of >demonstrating its " sign " better than anything else. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ This will be true from outside observation. But each person will probably be internally able to feel his sun or moon energies no matter where these are in the horoscope. There are facets of the western sidereal system that I totally agree with, such as the timing of solar and lunar return charts and the importance of the foreground with the cusp as the center of the foreground areas--Although I use an equal 12 fold division of the zodiac to define the foreground. So let's get on to discussions of actual horoscopes rather than waste time trying to decide who is 'right' and who has prejudices against various astrological tenets. Blessings, Therese Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2003 Report Share Posted November 22, 2003 --- Therese Hamilton <eastwest wrote: > At 01:16 AM 11/21/03 -0800, Juan wrote: > >I believe if the people on this list want to know > what > >a novien chart is (and what Fagan had to say about > >them) that they read what he wrote on the > subject... > For those who are interested > >I suggest reading " Primer of Sidereal Astrology " . > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Is that book still in print? I doubt it... What can be done to revive old publications? It is in my copy on page 111....Its copyrighted 1971 but not spiral bound. I have a 1971 > edition-spiral bound. The novien > isn't mentioned, and the primer is full of math, > which today's astrologers > have no patience with. We now bow down to the mighty > computer. There is > very little on natal interpretation in the Primer. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > >Therese... Its apparent that you are biased in your > >opinion and that you favor the navamsa chart to a > >novien. Have you ever worked with noviens? > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Yes, I have. How much have you worked with the > Lahiri ayanamsa and the > navamsa chart?? > Never had the interest or need to evaluate the navamsa chart very much. Evaluated various systems such as Lahiri years ago and decided the Fagan-Bradley worked better. I found the difference rather insignificant while working within a Western Sidereal format. The navamsa charts that were demonstrated to me by individuals who were considered knowledgeable were not impressive. A " western " sidereal chart is an English/Irish friendly format and inherently more logical and less of a stretch. > I worked with the sidereal system and novien in the > 70s or early 80s. > Hey--I hung out with Ken Bowser, Bert Fannin and > other mighty sidereal ones > from that era who lived in and around San Francisco. LOL... I'm sure they will appreciate your feelings that they are among the " mighty sidereal ones " . Bert.. if you're alive and reading this let us know what you think about novienic charts... If my memory serves me correctly neither Bowser or Fannin were big fans of the novienic charts... Mike Viele is the only Siderealist that I know of that has done a considerable amount of research on novienic charts. Mike is currently in India so I don't know if he can share his knowledge with us. I will tell you from my experience that a novienic chart is similar to an additional layer of psychological perspective. Sort of like peeling back skin on an onion. The charts I have been doing lately demonstrate their profound significance. > They paid me the > supreme honor of visiting at my house. That was brazen of you.... We had many > stimulating discussions. If they recall the stimulating conversations get them to join this group. We could use a few siderealists here.... > This is where I learned sidereal astrology. This is > when I made the change > from the Tropical zodiac. > > I ended up rejecting the novien in favor of the > navamsa. And I found that > the Lahiri ayanamsa gave better results than the > Fagan value. In other words you began doing vedic/joystick charts instead of continuing with sidereal charts.... I began > writing articles for the sidereal magazines in the > 70s. I've been around > for awhile, getting to be an old crone actually. > yea... bet you were a fritzi devotee at one time... Wasn't that her name... Had that metaphysical store on Mason St. I think... so long ago... Did I tell you that I did readings on Haight st. in the sixties... Sidereal of course... I was revolutionary in those days... > But we need brand new research projects because that > was in the > pre-computer days and we couldn't work with hundreds > of horoscopes as we > can today. A few horoscopes don't prove anything at > all. > get busy..... > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >Can you > >demonstrate how the navamsa chart is superior to > the > >novien? > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > I can demonstrate that it works in a particular way. Everything works in a " particular way " ... You implied when you wrote in an earlier post that a navamsa was superior to a novienic chart. Now it seems that you only want to describe how it works instead of why its a superior application. > But rather than argue > it's best to give actual horoscope examples we can > all learn and benefit > from. Why don't we try that? > ???????? > Fagan talked about the actual signs having specific > meanings. This is true > to some extent with the navamsa, but equally > important is the sign overlap > between natal and navamsa charts and planets > conjunct the navamsa Moon. > There are certain havamsa patterns in the horoscopes > of politicians, > painters, Gay men, lesbians, computer programmers > and so forth. I have some > really good painter-politican examples, but can't > post them right now > because a list member is trying to sort out the two > kinds of charts as a > test experiment. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Therese... Not interested... painter-politican example? Show me one chart where the navamsa is superior to the novienic. > > >Your inference that one must be a disciple of > >Fagan suggests that Siderealists consider him a > " God " . > >That's very presumptuous on your part. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > I believe that you read that into my posts. I don't > believe I indicated > anything along those lines. Call me sensitive... you wrote " disciples of Fagan " When I read " disciples " there is a suggestion being forwarded by the author... Consiciously or not. The intention is obvious. > myself don't regard Cyril > Fagan as the end authority on the sidereal zodiac. I > believe his view was > only one view, and, as I see it, it was sometimes > not based on common sense > and fact. I think its clear that you don't consider his contributions significant or very important. You don't use his system and consider some of his work illogical and not factual. I for one would like to know what you mean by his view lacking common sense and facts? This is largely because some of the recent > translations of > Mesoptamian texts weren't available when Fagan was > alive. He had to draw > his own conclusions based on what was available to > him. > What are you referring to? What texts? What are the discepancies? > For example, because the old lunar houses began with > the Pleiades, Fagan > concluded that the Hindu zodiac once began with > Taurus. Thus, he began the > noviens from Taurus. (Fagan is definitely off on a > tangent in " Beginning of > the Hindu Zodiac " in ASTROLOGICAL ORIGINS.) Then > elsewhere he decided that > the zodiac began with Libra because the Egyptian > symbol for Libra resembled > the sunrise--or actually represented the sunrise. I > forget which. (Someone > can enlighten me on exactly what Fagan said about > Libra and the zodiac.) > So... your contention is that he was not consistent and rushed to erroneous conclusions ... And this is because he says that the Hindu's originally began their zodiac with Taurus and the Egyptians with Libra... What would you expect from two different civilizations? You're saying you have evidence to the contrary? On the other hand he was a pioneer in developing the modern day astrologer. His work more than anyone else drove students to investigate historical realities. He questioned and because he did, he entertained many concepts. I'm not confused by discrepancies which may exist in his work... I am fortunate for his contributions. He has given me much to understand who I am and where I'm headed. Taurus is a logical beginning point. Did the Babylonians have the constellation of Aires in their version of the Zodiac? Did the original Hindu zodiac commence with the Nakshtra Krittika? Why was Aires significant for the Egyptians? I don't have a copy of Fagan's Astrological Origins or I would look up your reference to Libra. I will tell you that prior to the Greeks the 12 houses of the Mundoscope operated with Libra or Akhet(Egyptian for sunrise) at the Ascendant. > Fagan was brilliant in his way. But sometimes he was > wrong. > How was he wrong? FYI: I don't agree with his chart for Christ... I can't get the Bija rate to work for me, yet logically I think it should(Why does that make me think of Chicago Bob?). I'm not crazy about the Ocktotopus house system but I don't think he(Fagan) did either by the time he died. > What I observe on this list is that newer members as > well as myself > demonstrate some knowledge of different astrological > systems. Are you saying that siderealists don't have a knowledge of different astrological systems? this is silly... And we ask > questions. But the died-in-the-wool followers of the > Fagan school don't > seem to be able to see into the other systems. Imagine.... individuals different than yourself. Your perception of died-in-the-wool followers of the Fagan school is jaded... You refer to us as though we are lemmings... We consider ourselves siderealists and this is a siderealist group. We are not into navamsa charts and we are not into lahiri... We avoid arguing the tenets of these ideas because to us they are not worth the exercise. We are not here to gather converts, so we are not engaged in shaping minds to become siderealists. I don't know of another group more generous to share what they have learned. None of the siderealists here have to prove anything. Juan, > aren't you sure your > system is the best one? Isn't that why this list was > started in the first > place, to let astrologers know about the Western > sidereal system of astrology? > > I don't know why this list was started. I came afterword's. Kevin's comments in the introduction should answer your question. If you want to know something about Western Sidereal Astrology you just have to ask. Understand that not everyone wants to pursue it the way you do. I'm not interested in evaluating hundreds of charts... I like financial applications.. Jack likes sports and gambling applications.. Bert is a hedonist and Chris is an artist... My presumption is that Dark*Star is a comedian though we have not been properly introduced. Would you believe that Jesus Christ was a Gemini? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > Open your heart and you to may see the > >light.... > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Juan, why don't we move from theory to fact?? Let's > take the novien and > navmasa positions of some well known people and talk > about how they operate > in the chart.... > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > That is a sterling suggestion...... I suggest that we do Dubya... Do you agree? Transiting Pluto is about to conjunct his Novenic Moon and ASCendant. I'll dubya check but I think thats correct. > >Fagan did not ridicule every kind of sign category. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > In a day or two I'll post here an article a list > member recently sent me > authored by Fagan on this topic. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Why couldn't they list it themselves? anyways your point is? > >If the air signs are mental in the Tropical Zodiac > why > >can't they be the same in the Sidereal? > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Because if a specific zone of the zodiac has a > specific vibration or > meaning, two opposing interpretations can't exist > together. It would be > like oil and water occupying the same space. Can't > be done. Well, maybe a > physicist could make it happen somehow. Guess it would depend on which zodiac you are using? Am I to presume that you utilize both zodiacs at once? > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > >The signs are changing their meaning. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Can you give an example of how one of the zodiacal > signs is changing its > meaning? > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Actually... I've already given you too much to chew on. Besides I thought you knew that already. > .. you have my opinion... what more does any of us > have? > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > We now have many thousands of timed horoscopes at > our fingertips to > research. This has just happened in the last few > years with the Rodden > AstroDatabank. We also have the internet where > discussions like this can > take plance. None of this existed a few decades ago. > None of this existed > when Cyril Fagan was alive. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ What's your point? > > >The Idea of attempting to define an individuals > " sun > >sign " (which happens to be in a background house) > when > >a planet or the moon of a different sign embraces > the > >ascendant is way difficult. Any planet or light, > with > >its inherent energies on an angle has the potential > of > >demonstrating its " sign " better than anything else. > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > This will be true from outside observation. That was the position I was taking ... One of an observer... But each > person will probably > be internally able to feel his sun or moon energies > no matter where these > are in the horoscope. ...... yea, probably... > > There are facets of the western sidereal system that > I totally agree with, > such as the timing of solar and lunar return charts > and the importance of > the foreground with the cusp as the center of the > foreground > areas--Although I use an equal 12 fold division of > the zodiac to define the > foreground. > Thats it?.... How do you calculate solar or lunar returns? Do you calcualte PSSR? Quotidians? lunar phase returns? Capsolar? Mundoscope? > So let's get on to discussions of actual horoscopes > rather than waste time > trying to decide who is 'right' and who has > prejudices against various > astrological tenets. > Too bad you didn't start your e-mail with the above sentence of awareness. You would have saved us both a lot of grief. > Blessings, > Therese > > > " How can Pluto be in Sagittarius when it's so close > to Antares? " ----- \ How close is it? Juan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2003 Report Share Posted November 23, 2003 On 22 Nov 2003 at 4:20, Juan Oliver wrote: > --- Therese Hamilton <eastwest wrote: > > At 01:16 AM 11/21/03 -0800, Juan wrote: > > >I believe if the people on this list want to know > > what > > >a novien chart is (and what Fagan had to say about > > >them) that they read what he wrote on the > > subject... > > For those who are interested > > >I suggest reading " Primer of Sidereal Astrology " . > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > Is that book still in print? > > I doubt it... > What can be done to revive old publications? > It is in my copy on page 111....Its copyrighted 1971 > but not spiral bound. > Yes it still is in print in a new edition. My student got a copy. Look up the title on the internet. I do not have the print information at hand, but will ask him when he gets back. Bert > > I have a 1971 > > edition-spiral bound. The novien > > isn't mentioned, and the primer is full of math, > > which today's astrologers > > have no patience with. We now bow down to the mighty > > computer. There is > > very little on natal interpretation in the Primer. > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > >Therese... Its apparent that you are biased in your > > >opinion and that you favor the navamsa chart to a > > >novien. Have you ever worked with noviens? > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > Yes, I have. How much have you worked with the > > Lahiri ayanamsa and the > > navamsa chart?? > > > > Never had the interest or need to evaluate the navamsa > chart very much. Evaluated various systems such as > Lahiri years ago and decided the Fagan-Bradley worked > better. I found the difference rather insignificant > while working within a Western Sidereal format. The > navamsa charts that were demonstrated to me by > individuals who were considered knowledgeable were not > impressive. A " western " sidereal chart is an > English/Irish friendly format and inherently more > logical and less of a stretch. > > > I worked with the sidereal system and novien in the > > 70s or early 80s. > > Hey--I hung out with Ken Bowser, Bert Fannin and > > other mighty sidereal ones > > from that era who lived in and around San Francisco. > > LOL... I'm sure they will appreciate your feelings > that they are among the " mighty sidereal ones " . > > Bert.. if you're alive and reading this let us know > what you think about novienic charts... If my memory > serves me correctly neither Bowser or Fannin were big > fans of the novienic charts... Mike Viele is the only > Siderealist that I know of that has done a > considerable amount of research on novienic charts. > Mike is currently in India so I don't know if he can > share his knowledge with us. I will tell you from my > experience that a novienic chart is similar to an > additional layer of psychological perspective. Sort of > like peeling back skin on an onion. The charts I have > been doing lately demonstrate their profound > significance. > > > They paid me the > > supreme honor of visiting at my house. > > That was brazen of you.... > > We had many > > stimulating discussions. > > If they recall the stimulating conversations get them > to join this group. We could use a few siderealists > here.... > > > This is where I learned sidereal astrology. This is > > when I made the change > > from the Tropical zodiac. > > > > I ended up rejecting the novien in favor of the > > navamsa. And I found that > > the Lahiri ayanamsa gave better results than the > > Fagan value. > > In other words you began doing vedic/joystick charts > instead of continuing with sidereal charts.... > > I began > > writing articles for the sidereal magazines in the > > 70s. I've been around > > for awhile, getting to be an old crone actually. > > > > yea... bet you were a fritzi devotee at one time... > Wasn't that her name... Had that metaphysical store on > Mason St. I think... so long ago... > Did I tell you that I did readings on Haight st. in > the sixties... Sidereal of course... I was > revolutionary in those days... > > > But we need brand new research projects because that > > was in the > > pre-computer days and we couldn't work with hundreds > > of horoscopes as we > > can today. A few horoscopes don't prove anything at > > all. > > > > get busy..... > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > >Can you > > >demonstrate how the navamsa chart is superior to > > the > > >novien? > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > I can demonstrate that it works in a particular way. > > Everything works in a " particular way " ... > > You implied when you wrote in an earlier post that a > navamsa was superior to a novienic chart. Now it seems > that you only want to describe how it works instead of > why its a superior application. > > > > But rather than argue > > it's best to give actual horoscope examples we can > > all learn and benefit > > from. Why don't we try that? > > > > ???????? > > > > Fagan talked about the actual signs having specific > > meanings. This is true > > to some extent with the navamsa, but equally > > important is the sign overlap > > between natal and navamsa charts and planets > > conjunct the navamsa Moon. > > There are certain havamsa patterns in the horoscopes > > of politicians, > > painters, Gay men, lesbians, computer programmers > > and so forth. I have some > > really good painter-politican examples, but can't > > post them right now > > because a list member is trying to sort out the two > > kinds of charts as a > > test experiment. > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Therese... Not interested... > painter-politican example? > Show me one chart where the navamsa is superior to the > novienic. > > > > >Your inference that one must be a disciple of > > >Fagan suggests that Siderealists consider him a > > " God " . > > >That's very presumptuous on your part. > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > I believe that you read that into my posts. I don't > > believe I indicated > > anything along those lines. > > > Call me sensitive... you wrote " disciples of Fagan " > When I read " disciples " there is a suggestion being > forwarded by the author... Consiciously or not. > The intention is obvious. > > > > myself don't regard Cyril > > Fagan as the end authority on the sidereal zodiac. I > > believe his view was > > only one view, and, as I see it, it was sometimes > > not based on common sense > > and fact. > > I think its clear that you don't consider his > contributions significant or very important. > You don't use his system and consider some of his work > illogical and not factual. I for one would like to > know what you mean by his view lacking common sense > and facts? > > > This is largely because some of the recent > > translations of > > Mesoptamian texts weren't available when Fagan was > > alive. He had to draw > > his own conclusions based on what was available to > > him. > > > > What are you referring to? What texts? > What are the discepancies? > > > > For example, because the old lunar houses began with > > the Pleiades, Fagan > > concluded that the Hindu zodiac once began with > > Taurus. Thus, he began the > > noviens from Taurus. (Fagan is definitely off on a > > tangent in " Beginning of > > the Hindu Zodiac " in ASTROLOGICAL ORIGINS.) Then > > elsewhere he decided that > > the zodiac began with Libra because the Egyptian > > symbol for Libra resembled > > the sunrise--or actually represented the sunrise. I > > forget which. (Someone > > can enlighten me on exactly what Fagan said about > > Libra and the zodiac.) > > > > So... your contention is that he was not consistent > and rushed to erroneous conclusions ... And this is > because he says that the Hindu's originally began > their zodiac with Taurus and the Egyptians with > Libra... What would you expect from two different > civilizations? You're saying you have evidence to the > contrary? > On the other hand he was a pioneer in developing the > modern day astrologer. His work more than anyone else > drove students to investigate historical realities. > He questioned and because he did, he entertained many > concepts. I'm not confused by discrepancies which may > exist in his work... I am fortunate for his > contributions. He has given me much to understand who > I am and where I'm headed. > > Taurus is a logical beginning point. Did the > Babylonians have the constellation of Aires in their > version of the Zodiac? Did the original Hindu zodiac > commence with the Nakshtra Krittika? Why was Aires > significant for the Egyptians? > > > I don't have a copy of Fagan's Astrological Origins or > I would look up your reference to Libra. I will tell > you that prior to the Greeks the 12 houses of the > Mundoscope operated with Libra or Akhet(Egyptian for > sunrise) at the Ascendant. > Fagan was brilliant in his way. But sometimes he was > > wrong. > > > > How was he wrong? > FYI: I don't agree with his chart for Christ... > I can't get the Bija rate to work for me, yet > logically I think it should(Why does that make me > think of Chicago Bob?). I'm not crazy about the > Ocktotopus house system but I don't think he(Fagan) > did either by the time he died. > > > > > What I observe on this list is that newer members as > > well as myself > > demonstrate some knowledge of different astrological > > systems. > > Are you saying that siderealists don't have a > knowledge of different astrological systems? this is > silly... > > And we ask > > questions. But the died-in-the-wool followers of the > > Fagan school don't > > seem to be able to see into the other systems. > > Imagine.... individuals different than yourself. > Your perception of died-in-the-wool followers of the > Fagan school is jaded... You refer to us as though we > are lemmings... > We consider ourselves siderealists and this is a > siderealist group. We are not into navamsa charts and > we are not into lahiri... We avoid arguing the tenets > of these ideas because to us they are not worth the > exercise. We are not here to gather converts, so we > are not engaged in shaping minds to become > siderealists. I don't know of another group more > generous to share what they have learned. > > None of the siderealists here have to prove anything. > > > Juan, > > aren't you sure your > > system is the best one? Isn't that why this list was > > started in the first > > place, to let astrologers know about the Western > > sidereal system of astrology? > > > > > > I don't know why this list was started. I came > afterword's. Kevin's comments in the introduction > should answer your question. > If you want to know something about Western Sidereal > Astrology you just have to ask. Understand that not > everyone wants to pursue it the way you do. > I'm not interested in evaluating hundreds of charts... > I like financial applications.. Jack likes sports and > gambling applications.. Bert is a hedonist and Chris > is an artist... My presumption is that Dark*Star is a > comedian though we have not been properly introduced. > > Would you believe that Jesus Christ was a Gemini? > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > > Open your heart and you to may see the > > >light.... > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > Juan, why don't we move from theory to fact?? Let's > > take the novien and > > navmasa positions of some well known people and talk > > about how they operate > > in the chart.... > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > That is a sterling suggestion...... > > I suggest that we do Dubya... > Do you agree? > Transiting Pluto is about to conjunct his Novenic Moon > and ASCendant. I'll dubya check but I think thats > correct. > > > >Fagan did not ridicule every kind of sign category. > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > In a day or two I'll post here an article a list > > member recently sent me > > authored by Fagan on this topic. > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Why couldn't they list it themselves? > anyways your point is? > > > > >If the air signs are mental in the Tropical Zodiac > > why > > >can't they be the same in the Sidereal? > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > Because if a specific zone of the zodiac has a > > specific vibration or > > meaning, two opposing interpretations can't exist > > together. It would be > > like oil and water occupying the same space. Can't > > be done. Well, maybe a > > physicist could make it happen somehow. > > > Guess it would depend on which zodiac you are using? > Am I to presume that you utilize both zodiacs at once? > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > >The signs are changing their meaning. > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > Can you give an example of how one of the zodiacal > > signs is changing its > > meaning? > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > Actually... I've already given you too much to chew > on. > Besides I thought you knew that already. > > > > > .. you have my opinion... what more does any of us > > have? > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > We now have many thousands of timed horoscopes at > > our fingertips to > > research. This has just happened in the last few > > years with the Rodden > > AstroDatabank. We also have the internet where > > discussions like this can > > take plance. None of this existed a few decades ago. > > None of this existed > > when Cyril Fagan was alive. > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > What's your point? > > > > > > >The Idea of attempting to define an individuals > > " sun > > >sign " (which happens to be in a background house) > > when > > >a planet or the moon of a different sign embraces > > the > > >ascendant is way difficult. Any planet or light, > > with > > >its inherent energies on an angle has the potential > > of > > >demonstrating its " sign " better than anything else. > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > This will be true from outside observation. > > > That was the position I was taking ... > One of an observer... > > > > But each > > person will probably > > be internally able to feel his sun or moon energies > > no matter where these > > are in the horoscope. > > > ..... yea, probably... > > > > > There are facets of the western sidereal system that > > I totally agree with, > > such as the timing of solar and lunar return charts > > and the importance of > > the foreground with the cusp as the center of the > > foreground > > areas--Although I use an equal 12 fold division of > > the zodiac to define the > > foreground. > > > > Thats it?.... How do you calculate solar or lunar > returns? Do you calcualte PSSR? Quotidians? > lunar phase returns? Capsolar? Mundoscope? > > > So let's get on to discussions of actual horoscopes > > rather than waste time > > trying to decide who is 'right' and who has > > prejudices against various > > astrological tenets. > > > > Too bad you didn't start your e-mail with the above > sentence of awareness. You would have saved us both a > lot of grief. > > > > > Blessings, > > Therese > > > > > > " How can Pluto be in Sagittarius when it's so close > > to Antares? " ----- > \ > > > How close is it? > > Juan > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2003 Report Share Posted November 23, 2003 Bert... Thanks... I look forward to getting getting that info.. Any other " books of merit " available in print? Juan --- Bert Fannin <bwfannin wrote: > On 22 Nov 2003 at 4:20, Juan Oliver wrote: > > > --- Therese Hamilton <eastwest > wrote: > > > At 01:16 AM 11/21/03 -0800, Juan wrote: > > > >I believe if the people on this list want to > know > > > what > > > >a novien chart is (and what Fagan had to say > about > > > >them) that they read what he wrote on the > > > subject... > > > For those who are interested > > > >I suggest reading " Primer of Sidereal > Astrology " . > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > > > Is that book still in print? > > > > I doubt it... > > What can be done to revive old publications? > > It is in my copy on page 111....Its copyrighted > 1971 > > but not spiral bound. > > > > Yes it still is in print in a new edition. My > student got a copy. Look up the title > on the internet. I do not have the print > information at hand, but will ask him when he > gets back. > > Bert > > > > > > I have a 1971 > > > edition-spiral bound. The novien > > > isn't mentioned, and the primer is full of math, > > > which today's astrologers > > > have no patience with. We now bow down to the > mighty > > > computer. There is > > > very little on natal interpretation in the > Primer. > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > > > >Therese... Its apparent that you are biased in > your > > > >opinion and that you favor the navamsa chart to > a > > > >novien. Have you ever worked with noviens? > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > > > Yes, I have. How much have you worked with the > > > Lahiri ayanamsa and the > > > navamsa chart?? > > > > > > > Never had the interest or need to evaluate the > navamsa > > chart very much. Evaluated various systems such as > > Lahiri years ago and decided the Fagan-Bradley > worked > > better. I found the difference rather > insignificant > > while working within a Western Sidereal format. > The > > navamsa charts that were demonstrated to me by > > individuals who were considered knowledgeable were > not > > impressive. A " western " sidereal chart is an > > English/Irish friendly format and inherently more > > logical and less of a stretch. > > > > > I worked with the sidereal system and novien in > the > > > 70s or early 80s. > > > Hey--I hung out with Ken Bowser, Bert Fannin and > > > other mighty sidereal ones > > > from that era who lived in and around San > Francisco. > > > > LOL... I'm sure they will appreciate your feelings > > that they are among the " mighty sidereal ones " . > > > > Bert.. if you're alive and reading this let us > know > > what you think about novienic charts... If my > memory > > serves me correctly neither Bowser or Fannin were > big > > fans of the novienic charts... Mike Viele is the > only > > Siderealist that I know of that has done a > > considerable amount of research on novienic > charts. > > Mike is currently in India so I don't know if he > can > > share his knowledge with us. I will tell you from > my > > experience that a novienic chart is similar to an > > additional layer of psychological perspective. > Sort of > > like peeling back skin on an onion. The charts I > have > > been doing lately demonstrate their profound > > significance. > > > > > They paid me the > > > supreme honor of visiting at my house. > > > > That was brazen of you.... > > > > We had many > > > stimulating discussions. > > > > If they recall the stimulating conversations get > them > > to join this group. We could use a few > siderealists > > here.... > > > > > This is where I learned sidereal astrology. This > is > > > when I made the change > > > from the Tropical zodiac. > > > > > > I ended up rejecting the novien in favor of the > > > navamsa. And I found that > > > the Lahiri ayanamsa gave better results than the > > > Fagan value. > > > > In other words you began doing vedic/joystick > charts > > instead of continuing with sidereal charts.... > > > > I began > > > writing articles for the sidereal magazines in > the > > > 70s. I've been around > > > for awhile, getting to be an old crone actually. > > > > > > > yea... bet you were a fritzi devotee at one > time... > > Wasn't that her name... Had that metaphysical > store on > > Mason St. I think... so long ago... > > Did I tell you that I did readings on Haight st. > in > > the sixties... Sidereal of course... I was > > revolutionary in those days... > > > > > But we need brand new research projects because > that > > > was in the > > > pre-computer days and we couldn't work with > hundreds > > > of horoscopes as we > > > can today. A few horoscopes don't prove anything > at > > > all. > > > > > > > get busy..... > > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > > >Can you > > > >demonstrate how the navamsa chart is superior > to > > > the > > > >novien? > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > > > I can demonstrate that it works in a particular > way. > > > > Everything works in a " particular way " ... > > > > You implied when you wrote in an earlier post that > a > > navamsa was superior to a novienic chart. Now it > seems > > that you only want to describe how it works > instead of > > why its a superior application. > > > > > > > But rather than argue > > > it's best to give actual horoscope examples we > can > > > all learn and benefit > > > from. Why don't we try that? > > > > > > > ???????? > > > > > > > Fagan talked about the actual signs having > specific > > > meanings. This is true > > > to some extent with the navamsa, but equally > > > important is the sign overlap > > > between natal and navamsa charts and planets > > > conjunct the navamsa Moon. > > > There are certain havamsa patterns in the > horoscopes > > > of politicians, > > > painters, Gay men, lesbians, computer > programmers > > > and so forth. I have some > > > really good painter-politican examples, but > can't > > > post them right now > > > because a list member is trying to sort out the > two > > > kinds of charts as a > > > test experiment. > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > Therese... Not interested... > > painter-politican example? > > Show me one chart where the navamsa is superior to > the > > novienic. > > > > > > >Your inference that one must be a disciple of > > > >Fagan suggests that Siderealists consider him a > > > " God " . > > > >That's very presumptuous on your part. > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > > > I believe that you read that into my posts. I > don't > > > believe I indicated > > > anything along those lines. > > > > > > Call me sensitive... you wrote " disciples of > Fagan " > > When I read " disciples " there is a suggestion > being > > forwarded by the author... Consiciously or not. > > The intention is obvious. > > > > > > > myself don't regard Cyril > > > Fagan as the end authority on the sidereal > zodiac. I > > > believe his view was > > > only one view, and, as I see it, it was > sometimes > > > not based on common sense > > > and fact. > > > > I think its clear that you don't consider his > > contributions significant or very important. > > You don't use his system and consider some of his > work > > illogical and not factual. I for one would like to > > know what you mean by his view lacking common > sense > > and facts? > > > > > > This is largely because some of the recent > > > translations of > > > Mesoptamian texts weren't available when Fagan > was > > > alive. He had to draw > > > his own conclusions based on what was available > to > > > him. > > > > > > > What are you referring to? What texts? > > What are the discepancies? > > > > > > > For example, because the old lunar houses began > with > > > the Pleiades, Fagan > > > concluded that the Hindu zodiac once began with > > > Taurus. Thus, he began the > > > noviens from Taurus. (Fagan is definitely off on > a > > > tangent in " Beginning of > > > the Hindu Zodiac " in ASTROLOGICAL ORIGINS.) Then > > > elsewhere he decided that > > > the zodiac began with Libra because the Egyptian > > > symbol for Libra resembled > > > the sunrise--or actually represented the > sunrise. I > > > forget which. (Someone > > > can enlighten me on exactly what Fagan said > about > > > Libra and the zodiac.) > > > > > > > So... your contention is that he was not > consistent > > and rushed to erroneous conclusions ... And this > is > > because he says that the Hindu's originally began > > their zodiac with Taurus and the Egyptians with > > Libra... What would you expect from two different > > civilizations? You're saying you have evidence to > the > > contrary? > > On the other hand he was a pioneer in developing > the > > modern day astrologer. His work more than anyone > else > > drove students to investigate historical > realities. > > He questioned and because he did, he entertained > many > > concepts. I'm not confused by discrepancies which > may > > exist in his work... I am fortunate for his > > contributions. He has given me much to understand > who > > I am and where I'm headed. > > > > Taurus is a logical beginning point. Did the > > Babylonians have the constellation of Aires in > their > > version of the Zodiac? Did the original Hindu > zodiac > > commence with the Nakshtra Krittika? Why was Aires > > significant for the Egyptians? > > > > > > I don't have a copy of Fagan's Astrological > Origins or > > I would look up your reference to Libra. I will > tell > > you that prior to the Greeks the 12 houses of the > > Mundoscope operated with Libra or Akhet(Egyptian > for > > sunrise) at the Ascendant. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fagan was brilliant in his way. But sometimes he > was > > > wrong. > > > > > > > How was he wrong? > > FYI: I don't agree with his chart for Christ... > > I can't get the Bija rate to work for me, yet > > logically I think it should(Why does that make me > > think of Chicago Bob?). I'm not crazy about the > > Ocktotopus house system but I don't think > he(Fagan) > > did either by the time he died. > > > > > > > > > What I observe on this list is that newer > members as > > > well as myself > > > demonstrate some knowledge of different > astrological > > > systems. > > > > Are you saying that siderealists don't have a > > knowledge of different astrological systems? this > is > > silly... > > > > And we ask > > > questions. But the died-in-the-wool followers of > the > > > Fagan school don't > > > seem to be able to see into the other systems. > > > > Imagine.... individuals different than yourself. > > Your perception of died-in-the-wool followers of > the > > Fagan school is jaded... You refer to us as though > we > > are lemmings... > > We consider ourselves siderealists and this is a > > siderealist group. We are not into navamsa charts > and > > we are not into lahiri... We avoid arguing the > tenets > > of these ideas because to us they are not worth > the > > exercise. We are not here to gather converts, so > we > > are not engaged in shaping minds to become > > siderealists. I don't know of another group more > > generous to share what they have learned. > > > > None of the siderealists here have to prove > anything. > > > > > > Juan, > > > aren't you sure your > > > system is the best one? Isn't that why this list > was > > > started in the first > > > place, to let astrologers know about the Western > > > sidereal system of astrology? > > > > > > > > > > I don't know why this list was started. I came > > afterword's. Kevin's comments in the introduction > > should answer your question. > > If you want to know something about Western > Sidereal > > Astrology you just have to ask. Understand that > not > > everyone wants to pursue it the way you do. > > I'm not interested in evaluating hundreds of > charts... > > I like financial applications.. Jack likes sports > and > > gambling applications.. Bert is a hedonist and > Chris > > is an artist... My presumption is that Dark*Star > is a > > comedian though we have not been properly > introduced. > > > > Would you believe that Jesus Christ was a Gemini? > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > > > > Open your heart and you to may see the > > > >light.... > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > > > Juan, why don't we move from theory to fact?? > Let's > > > take the novien and > > > navmasa positions of some well known people and > talk > > > about how they operate > > > in the chart.... > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > > > > That is a sterling suggestion...... > > > > I suggest that we do Dubya... > > Do you agree? > > Transiting Pluto is about to conjunct his Novenic > Moon > > and ASCendant. I'll dubya check but I think thats > > correct. > > > > > >Fagan did not ridicule every kind of sign > category. > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > > > In a day or two I'll post here an article a list > > > member recently sent me > > > authored by Fagan on this topic. > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > Why couldn't they list it themselves? > > anyways your point is? > > > > > > > >If the air signs are mental in the Tropical > Zodiac > > > why > > > >can't they be the same in the Sidereal? > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > > > Because if a specific zone of the zodiac has a > > > specific vibration or > > > meaning, two opposing interpretations can't > exist > > > together. It would be > > > like oil and water occupying the same space. > Can't > > > be done. Well, maybe a > > > physicist could make it happen somehow. > > > > > > Guess it would depend on which zodiac you are > using? > > Am I to presume that you utilize both zodiacs at > once? > > > > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > > > >The signs are changing their meaning. > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > > > Can you give an example of how one of the > zodiacal > > > signs is changing its > > > meaning? > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > > > > Actually... I've already given you too much to > chew > > on. > > Besides I thought you knew that already. > > > > > > > > > .. you have my opinion... what more does any of > us > > > have? > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > > > We now have many thousands of timed horoscopes > at > > > our fingertips to > > > research. This has just happened in the last few > > > years with the Rodden > > > AstroDatabank. We also have the internet where > > > discussions like this can > > > take plance. None of this existed a few decades > ago. > > > None of this existed > > > when Cyril Fagan was alive. > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > What's your point? > > > > > > > > > > >The Idea of attempting to define an individuals > > > " sun > > > >sign " (which happens to be in a background > house) > > > when > > > >a planet or the moon of a different sign > embraces > > > the > > > >ascendant is way difficult. Any planet or > light, > > > with > > > >its inherent energies on an angle has the > potential > > > of > > > >demonstrating its " sign " better than anything > else. > > > > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > > > This will be true from outside observation. > > > > > > That was the position I was taking ... > > One of an observer... > > > > > > > > But each > > > person will probably > > > be internally able to feel his sun or moon > energies > > > no matter where these > > > are in the horoscope. > > > > > > ..... yea, probably... > > > > > > > > There are facets of the western sidereal system > that > > > I totally agree with, > > > such as the timing of solar and lunar return > charts > > > and the importance of > > > the foreground with the cusp as the center of > the > > > foreground > > > areas--Although I use an equal 12 fold division > of > > > the zodiac to define the > > > foreground. > > > > > > > Thats it?.... How do you calculate solar or lunar > > returns? Do you calcualte PSSR? Quotidians? > > lunar phase returns? Capsolar? Mundoscope? > > > > > So let's get on to discussions of actual > horoscopes > > > rather than waste time > > > trying to decide who is 'right' and who has > > > prejudices against various > > > astrological tenets. > > > > > > > Too bad you didn't start your e-mail with the > above > > sentence of awareness. You would have saved us > both a > > lot of grief. > > > > > > > > > Blessings, > > > Therese > > > > > > > > > " How can Pluto be in Sagittarius when it's so > close > > > to Antares? " ----- > > \ > > > > > > How close is it? > > > > Juan > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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