Guest guest Posted November 22, 2003 Report Share Posted November 22, 2003 At 04:20 AM 11/22/03 -0800, Juan wrote: >--- Therese Hamilton <eastwest wrote: >> At 01:16 AM 11/21/03 -0800, Juan wrote: >> >I believe if the people on this list want to know >> what >> >a novien chart is (and what Fagan had to say about >> >them) that they read what he wrote on the >> subject... >> For those who are interested >> >I suggest reading " Primer of Sidereal Astrology " . >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> >> Is that book still in print? > >I doubt it... >What can be done to revive old publications? >It is in my copy on page 111....Its copyrighted 1971 >but not spiral bound. Hmmmm...So we can't tell people to read it. My version is almost unreadable because of the manual typewriter type and poor copy quality. Yes--I checked. My page 111 is the same, but the novien isn't in the index. Looking through this book highlights the difference between Stahl and Fagan. Fagan tended to rant and rave, whereas in his Beginner's Manual, Stahl simply and clearly states the facts as he sees them. >Never had the interest or need to evaluate the navamsa >chart very much. Evaluated various systems such as >Lahiri years ago and decided the Fagan-Bradley worked >better. As far as I can see, it's very difficult to determine if one ayanamsa works better except for the navamsa chart. I've studied that chart with groups of similar charts such as computer programmers, homosexuality, etc. there are certain near constant configurations in the navamsa which would be thrown off if the navamsa was changed to the novien and the Fagan ayanamsa. I found the difference rather insignificant >while working within a Western Sidereal format. This is true. The difference would be almost nil. >The >navamsa charts that were demonstrated to me by >individuals who were considered knowledgeable were not >impressive. Jyotish astrologers don't really know much about using the navamsa chart. For one thing they don't consider degrees, which I have found to be very important, so it's no wonder you weren't convinced. The navamsa is also terrific to use between charts of individuals. All you have to do is compare a few devoted, long term relationships with unhappy broken ones...that is, observe the contacts between natal and navamsa charts. A " western " sidereal chart is an >English/Irish friendly format and inherently more >logical and less of a stretch. If you're talking about the circular format, I completely agree. Otherwise, I'm not sure what you mean....? (I have always refused to use the square chart format. It's anti-intuitive especially when it comes to planets on the angles. >... I will tell you from my >experience that a novienic chart is similar to an >additional layer of psychological perspective. Sort of >like peeling back skin on an onion. The charts I have >been doing lately demonstrate their profound >significance. I have found hard aspects to the Moon in the navmasa profoundly significant. On the Rodden site when they describe a person's psychology, it's always **right there** in the navamsa aspects of planets to the Moon. These aspects will be the same in the navamsa or novien--to a certain extent depending on the natal degrees. When I say 'novien,' I'm referring to calculations based on the use of the Fagan ayanamsa-novien from Taurus. The navamsa refers to the Lahiri ayanamsa-counted from Aries. Fagan did blunder in relation to the zodiac once beginning from Taurus. This is evident from recent translations of Mesopotamian texts. So to be historically correct, the 9th harmonic should be counted from Aries. In my experience what matters in the navamsa chart is the planet associated with the sign. That's about it as far as signs go. Hard aspects, especially to the Moon matter a lot. >If they recall the stimulating conversations get them >to join this group. We could use a few siderealists >here.... Ken doesn't participate on the discussion lists. I think he's extremely busy with clients and other aspects of life. Bert shows up here sometimes. Rick Ostrander has left us for lighter realms. >In other words you began doing vedic/joystick charts >instead of continuing with sidereal charts.... I changed the ayanamsa I was using and switiched to the navamsa. However, I kept many of the sidereal tenets such as reading the return charts (don't progress them, though--too much math for me). >yea... bet you were a fritzi devotee at one time... >Wasn't that her name... Had that metaphysical store on >Mason St. I think... so long ago... >Did I tell you that I did readings on Haight st. in >the sixties... Sidereal of course... I was >revolutionary in those days... Hey, no, you didn't mention this! Yes, I knew Fritzi. I did readings at Shamballa bookstore on Telegraph Avenue in Berkeley--they were Tropical readings and that's when I had very graphic dreams about what kind of S...t I was doing! I think I was a psych student at U.C. Berkeley at the time. I also had a dream telling me to look 'east' to complete the sidereal picture. There were a lot of little square windows within a larger plate glass window facing east. I later interpreted those little windows as the navamsa segments of the zodiac. >get busy..... I've been busy and have tons of files and studies that need to be organized and published, at least on the internet. And I'm not getting any younger. >Everything works in a " particular way " ... >You implied when you wrote in an earlier post that a >navamsa was superior to a novienic chart. Now it seems >that you only want to describe how it works instead of >why its a superior application. The best way to answer this is to post some applications of the navamsa chart. There are many and in any one area the application is consistent. I'd personally like to see some consistent applications of the novien chart. Maybe we agree on using aspects to the Moon? >painter-politican example? >Show me one chart where the navamsa is superior to the >novienic. Can you give me your definition of superior?? I'm talking about consistency across groups of horoscopes which share similar traits or abilities. >Call me sensitive... you wrote " disciples of Fagan " >When I read " disciples " there is a suggestion being >forwarded by the author... Consiciously or not. >The intention is obvious. Well, aren't siderealists disciples--that is, followers--of Fagan? Don't they base their system on his research and discoveries? Perhaps it would be more accurate to say, " Followers of Fagan's discoveries? " >I think its clear that you don't consider his >contributions significant or very important. >You don't use his system and consider some of his work >illogical and not factual. I for one would like to >know what you mean by his view lacking common sense >and facts? Oh my! (I'm sounding like an old lady here!!) You are jumping to so many conclusions!! I consider Fagan's re-discovery of the sidereal zodiac very significant for the west. It's pretty difficult to adopt India's system with all the raja yoga talk and Sanskrit terminology to the west. Fagan turned on the light to the zodiac in the west. I do follow Fagan's discoveries on solar and lunar return charts. I do note angular planets and aspects to angular planets. I also emphasize the importance of the moon. (End of Part 1; to be continued) Blessings, Therese Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2003 Report Share Posted November 24, 2003 --- Therese Hamilton <eastwest wrote: > > Hmmmm...So we can't tell people to read it. Why would you say that? Yes--I > checked. My page 111 is the same, but the novien > isn't in the index. Sorry can't help you... > Looking through this book highlights the difference > between Stahl and > Fagan. Fagan tended to rant and rave, whereas in his > Beginner's Manual, > Stahl simply and clearly states the facts as he sees > them. > > >Never had the interest or need to evaluate the > navamsa > >chart very much. Evaluated various systems such as > >Lahiri years ago and decided the Fagan-Bradley > worked > >better. > > As far as I can see, it's very difficult to > determine if one ayanamsa works > better except for the navamsa chart. I've studied > that chart with groups of > similar charts such as computer programmers, > homosexuality, etc. there are > certain near constant configurations in the navamsa > which would be thrown > off if the navamsa was changed to the novien and the > Fagan ayanamsa. > I'm happy for you... Glad you connect with it... I don't know how one comes up with " certain near constant configurations " when the difference is signage and not a matter of aspect. > > >The > >navamsa charts that were demonstrated to me by > >individuals who were considered knowledgeable were > not > >impressive. > > Jyotish astrologers don't really know much about > using the navamsa chart. > For one thing they don't consider degrees, which I > have found to be very > important, so it's no wonder you weren't convinced. So if the joysticks aren't into it... Who is besides yourself? > >... I will tell you from my > >experience that a novienic chart is similar to an > >additional layer of psychological perspective. Sort > of > >like peeling back skin on an onion. The charts I > have > >been doing lately demonstrate their profound > >significance. > > I have found hard aspects to the Moon in the navmasa > profoundly > significant. I would imagind so... if it was placed on the ascendant. > Fagan did blunder in relation to the zodiac once > beginning from Taurus. Let me remind you that on this point we disagree. > This is evident from recent translations of > Mesopotamian texts. What does info from Mesopotamian texts have to do with navamsa charts? So to be > historically correct, Sorry... don't think you are... wish you were but don't think so... the 9th harmonic should be > counted from Aries. In my > experience what matters in the navamsa chart is the > planet associated with > the sign. That's about it as far as signs go. Hard > aspects, especially to > the Moon matter a lot. > So again.... its all about signs... Sort of like Tropical perspective versus the Sidereal... > >If they recall the stimulating conversations get > them > >to join this group. We could use a few siderealists > >here.... > > >yea... bet you were a fritzi devotee at one time... > >Wasn't that her name... Had that metaphysical store > on > >Mason St. I think... so long ago... > >Did I tell you that I did readings on Haight st. in > >the sixties... Sidereal of course... I was > >revolutionary in those days... > > Hey, no, you didn't mention this! Yes, I knew > Fritzi. I did readings at > Shamballa bookstore on Telegraph Avenue in > Berkeley--they were Tropical > readings and that's when I had very graphic dreams > about what kind of S...t > I was doing! I think I was a psych student at U.C. > Berkeley at the time. I > also had a dream telling me to look 'east' to > complete the sidereal > picture. There were a lot of little square windows > within a larger plate > glass window facing east. I later interpreted those > little windows as the > navamsa segments of the zodiac. > you must have been on drugs.... > Blessings, > Therese After the smoke passes... Juan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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