Solar Returns: Birth or Locale Chart?

[Guest guest]

Hi everyone,

 

Western sidereal astrologers have always said that the solar return chart

for the current residence is the one to use. I have always remained

undecided. We have a perfect test for the locale question of solar returns

in the current California Recall election. Arnold Schwarzenegger was born

in Austria, very far away from Sacrmento, the capital of California.

 

The solar returns for this year show very different angular planets for

Austria and California. Below I'm posting an exchange regarding the birth

place/locale question from the Political board. Would a few sidereal

astrologers like to give their prediction of the outcome of this election?

 

Therese

 

Arnold Schwarzenegger, July 30, 1947, 4:10 a.m. Graz, Austria (Republican

leading candidate)

 

Cruz Bustamante, January 4, 1953, 17:11, Dinuba, California (Democratic

leading candidate)

 

Date of Election: October 7, 2003

 

 

Steven Stuckey <shastra@p...>

Sat Sep 13, 2003 4:37 pm

Re: The California Recall Election

 

Hi Steve,

 

Let's get into this a little more, as I agree that Arnold has some good

aspects going for him, and I've been undecided for a long time about the

birth place return vs the locale return. India uses the birth place solar

return. You wrote:

 

Therese:

Using the sidereal technique of emphasizing angular planets, these two

malefics do not speak well for a victory for Arnold. (Mars-Saturn angular

in Sacramento solar return chart)

 

Steve:

I also agree this chart doesn't look good. A re-located chart for Los Angeles

(current residence) gives same degree rising as Sacramento and places Mars

about 6 * off the MC. The natal Moon appears exactly on the 7th cusp of

this chart, placing him prominently in the spotlight, while opposed

closely by solar Saturn. This doesn't speak well for gaining support from

the female population and he loses favor in general from

the public. 'Opposed by Democrats' might be another way of looking at this

combination.

 

On the other hand.....the Solar for birthplace looks quite good, with Venus

very close to the MC along with the Sun.

 

Therese:

Yes, the Austrian solar return looks good--and when I first saw that chart

on the ADB site I predicted that Arnold's chances were very good. I

remember thinking that if the election were in Arnold's birth town, he

would be hard to beat.

 

But there are two questions about this chart: You are using house rulers.

What about the fact that the Sun, which is conjunct the M.C. is the 12th

house lord, and it's opposed by Neptune? Also the ascendant of the birth

place return is at least in the vicinity of natal Neptune, 15 degrees away?

Too far to count?

 

Steve:

I've had better results using the birthplace for return charts--but I do

look at both.

 

Therese:

I find this encouraging because I like the idea of giving priority to the

birth place chart.

 

Steve:

Virgo is rising (last degree by Lahiri) and ruler Mercury is in conjunction

to Jupiter in Leo (also conjunct king maker, Regulus).

 

Therese:

Mercury is also the 10th equal house ruler. If house lords work--well

Regulus would tell the story.

 

What about the fact that Jupiter is the ruler of the 7th house, the

opposition? (Solar returns get very messy when house rulers are used.) I

suppose these two planets close together could simply show the two

candidates fighting for each other's space?

 

The last degree of Virgo is conjunct the bright benefic Spica. That was one

reason I saw a potential victory for Arnold.

 

Steve:

Ruler of the MC is the Moon in Cancer sextile to ascendant and also conjunct

Jupiter. A slight adjustment of 3 minutes on Arnold's birth time would give

Libra rising for the birthplace Solar and would be equally good IMO. The

transits to the Solar return for election day shows Venus having just

crossed over the rising degree and squared the MC while sextile Mercury,

lord of ascendant. Transiting Merc is also giving a nice sextile to the

solar Venus/MC.

 

Parallax corrected lunar return for Austria, shows Jupiter at the MC, and Moon

in close trine to MC. Non parallax return for Austria shows Sun at the

degree of MC and Pluto about5* from conjunction to ascendant. Jupiter also

squares Asc. Both look positive for Arnold.

 

Therese:

With the Sun conjunct the M.C., we have the square from Saturn. The Sun is

applying to Saturn by 4 degrees. So should we consider the Sun alone or the

fact that the Sun is angular squared by Saturn? Angular Pluto-Jupiter

though--that looks like a winning combination.

 

Steve:

I definitely agree Bustamante has a lot going for him at election time.

 

On the other hand I think the Mars station on Sept 27th exactly on natal Venus

will cause trouble. I expect signification's of Venus to be harmed,

possibly causing him to loose a certain amount of his popular appeal

 

I don't think his Solar is indicative of winning the election however. Lord of

the 10th, Saturn, is in quincunx to ascendant lord Mars. On election day,

the nodes are transiting Mars, ruler of the ascendant--an eclipsing of power?

 

Therese:

If you use house rulerships, I have to agree with you. This is one of those

conditions in solar returns that I haven't decided on. It seems, Steve,

that you don't do much with crossing the solar return chart with the natal

chart?

 

As I think I pointed out in my previous post, Cruz does have the trine of

the Sun to the solar ascendant (how important are trines?) And Jupiter is

close to the nadir aspecting a 10th house Moon. What doesn't look so good

is the partile square of Mars to the Moon, unless it simply indicates the

election competition. Then we have the fact that the solar ascendant is

conjunct Cruz' natal Jupiter, 10th lord.

 

Questions about return charts:

(1) House rulers: As you pointed out, the 10th lord in Cruz' solar chart is

very weak. But Jupiter, the natal 10th lord, is strong. Which is more

important?? If you consider the 10th lord Mars in Cruz' election lunar,

it's a loser in the 8th house with Uranus.

 

(2) Angular planets in the lunar return: Jupiter in the first in Arnold's

Sacramento chart looks positive. But...Did you notice that the Sun in this

chart falls in the degree of his natal Neptune-- but natal Neptune rules

the 10th. Also, the Sun is neither angular nor does it aspect an angle.

Here again the birthplace lunar looks better with the Sun on the M.C.

(though squared by Saturn) and Jupiter in 10 square the ascendant. I'd say

that these two lunars present different results for the election. So this

election can help to answer the question: birth locale or relocation locale?

 

If we take Cruz' lunar (Thank God we don't have the location problem!), we

have the Jupiter- Moon-Mercury conjunction aspecting the MC/IC lunar axis,

but Saturn sextiles these planets from the 12th Just taking the lunar

returns alone without considering the interaction with the natal chart,

Arnold's lunar looks better.

 

Then we have the ENNEAD chart, which Jim Eshelman described in his

INTERPRETING SOLAR AND LUNAR RETURNS. This is the 40 day chart, which Jim

claims is starkly descriptive. Both Cruz and Arnold have angular

Saturns--Arnold has Saturn just above the Ascendant (birth locale) and Cruz

has it conjunct the IC. But Arnold has Mercury and Venus conjunct the IC.

I'd vote for Arnold on this one.

 

Steve:

Despite the preponderance of positive hits for Bustamante, I'm predicting

Schwarzenegger to win a close race.

 

Therese:

If we stay with the birth locale charts for Arnold, he has the best angular

planets. The Sacramento charts are much weaker. What makes precise

prediction somewhat difficult is that Arnold and Cruz have their Moons in

close trine to each other. Thus, transiting Jupiter is conjoining one and

trine the other. The outcome of Election 2000 could have been predicted (at

least in India) by the benefic aspect of Jupiter to GW's Moon--because the

Moon rising chart is considered almost as important as the Ascendant chart.

 

California with a Republican governor!!! I cannot imagine it. Who will

start the next recall?!! Will the majority of citizens, tired to death of

boring politicians, put a blustery actor in office?

 

Hoping against hope,

Therese