Guest guest Posted September 11, 2005 Report Share Posted September 11, 2005 At 07:28 AM 9/11/05 -0000, fimtinnegan wrote: >But the main point, again: Jupiter precisely on the western horizon at >the moment of your ingress chart for New Orleans: ... or at least explaining via some contradictory factor or different interpretation of Jupiter? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I presume you mean the eastern horizon? Have you forgotten the significance of Jupiter in Donald Bradley's research on heavy rainfall? Have your fogotten that Jupiter himself was 'Sender of rains,' Jupiter Pluvialis. During times of draught rain making ceremonies were dedicated to Jupiter. A city has died. Mars-Uranus in the extreme. Jupiter-Venus on either side of the ascendant, both in signs detrimental to themsleves. Very, very wet. It might be helpful to study a bit of Hellenistic astrology from recent translated texts. Sad to say some siderealists are ignoring the golden precepts being unearthed, material Fagan and Bradley themselves would find tremendously exciting. Yes, the ecliptic is my frame of reference as it was in ancient times. (Some of your first post was a bit obscure due to your writing style.) Therese Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 12, 2005 Report Share Posted September 12, 2005 Therese -- Sorry, I cast the chart for PM -- my eyes were playing tricks on me (thought it said " AM, " and then I just looked at the chart). I apologize for the mistake. Now I see you use non-equal house division, as is logical. I am curious about your reference to Bradley. Wasn't he using a different fiducial than you are? If so, why would you reference his conclusions about Jupiter? Weren't they based on ingresses? Or is my memory (like my eyesight) failing me? Any fiducial is OK with me. Again, though, a chart with Moon/Venus/Jupiter as the most angular planets does not strike me as the portent of the greatest natural disaster in America in recent (or distant) memory. And I have serious doubts about yods with the ascendant, ascendant lords, and aspects to the moon's nodes. Hierarchically, I can't imagine such twice- thrice- or infinitely-removed indicators to be very useful. I'll repeat: standard, old fashioned, mom'n'pop secondary progression shows transiting Saturn in conjunction to the New Orleans Midheaven, with an orb of one minute (0.02 degrees), for the Boyd USA chart at the moment the hurricane hit land. I really can't imagine anything more impressive, astrologically. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 12, 2005 Report Share Posted September 12, 2005 At 09:34 AM 9/12/05 -0000, fimtinnegan wrote: >Now I see you use non-equal house division, as is logical. Actually I use an equal division with the cusp as the center of the house. This is from India, and in Hellenistic times was used to judge the strength of a planet in relation to the ascendant. >I am curious about your reference to Bradley. Wasn't he using a >different fiducial than you are? If so, why would you reference his >conclusions about Jupiter? Bradley pointed out that Jupiter correlated with heavy rainfall. Yes, he did use a different ayanamsa, but the fact remains: Jupiter correlates with rainfall. The recent translations of Hellenistic (Greek) texts are bringing to light how important the myths of the gods are in understanding the planets. They are not only psychological. Mundane-weather astrology often links to these old myths (as Neptune is the earthshaker and Jupiter had to do with the abundance of water and sometimes storms). Venus is also very wet. The psychological benefic/malefic concepts don't apply in weather or natural event astrology. As for yods, if you go to my website, you will see that they are extremely common in charts of catastrophes. There are a group of earthquake charts that can be studied there. Also there's a close tie-in between the quake solar ingress charts and the quake itself. Especially the Moon is a timer. (As when the ingress Moon had moved from the IC/nadir to the MC/zenith at the time of the innundation for the Gulf Coast.) http://users.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm The fact that various kinds of progressions work doesn't invalidate ingress charts that work. Astrology is multi-faceted as are astrologers. Therese Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 13, 2005 Report Share Posted September 13, 2005 Therese, Well, this is interesting as usual but I find the Lahiri ingress into Leo far more compelling (Aug 16, 2005 12.27.13 CDT) : Asc 16Libra34 Mars 16Aries34 IC 20Capricorn33 Neptune 22Capricorn03 To me, that says death and violence from water more clearly than anything in the Krishnamurti chart. You couldn't have imagined a better chart for what has transpired there. Lahirily yours, Christopher ps: of course one ingress does not an ayanamsha make. - " therese hamilton " <eastwest Monday, September 12, 2005 8:11 AM Re: Leo Krishnamurti Ingress > At 09:34 AM 9/12/05 -0000, fimtinnegan wrote: > > >Now I see you use non-equal house division, as is logical. > > Actually I use an equal division with the cusp as the center of the house. > This is from India, and in Hellenistic times was used to judge the strength > of a planet in relation to the ascendant. > > >I am curious about your reference to Bradley. Wasn't he using a > >different fiducial than you are? If so, why would you reference his > >conclusions about Jupiter? > > Bradley pointed out that Jupiter correlated with heavy rainfall. Yes, he > did use a different ayanamsa, but the fact remains: Jupiter correlates with > rainfall. The recent translations of Hellenistic (Greek) texts are bringing > to light how important the myths of the gods are in understanding the > planets. They are not only psychological. Mundane-weather astrology often > links to these old myths (as Neptune is the earthshaker and Jupiter had to > do with the abundance of water and sometimes storms). Venus is also very > wet. The psychological benefic/malefic concepts don't apply in weather or > natural event astrology. > > As for yods, if you go to my website, you will see that they are extremely > common in charts of catastrophes. There are a group of earthquake charts > that can be studied there. Also there's a close tie-in between the quake > solar ingress charts and the quake itself. Especially the Moon is a timer. > (As when the ingress Moon had moved from the IC/nadir to the MC/zenith at > the time of the innundation for the Gulf Coast.) > > http://users.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm > > The fact that various kinds of progressions work doesn't invalidate ingress > charts that work. Astrology is multi-faceted as are astrologers. > > Therese > > > > > " How can Pluto be in Sagittarius when it's so close to Antares? " ----- > > Post message: > Subscribe: - > Un: - > List owner: -owner > > Shortcut URL to this page: > / > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 13, 2005 Report Share Posted September 13, 2005 Rainy Jupiter, or JJUPITER PLUVIUS as he was known to the Romans. _________________________________ therese hamilton wrote: > Bradley pointed out that Jupiter correlated with heavy rainfall. Yes, he > did use a different ayanamsa, but the fact remains: Jupiter correlates with > rainfall. The recent translations of Hellenistic (Greek) texts are bringing > to light how important the myths of the gods are in understanding the > planets. They are not only psychological. Mundane-weather astrology often > links to these old myths (as Neptune is the earthshaker and Jupiter had to > do with the abundance of water and sometimes storms). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 13, 2005 Report Share Posted September 13, 2005 Hi Chris, Yes, the Lahiri does show nicely here but falls apart in the Cyril-Donald Lunar Ingress of Gemini the day before, 8/28 which gives rainy Jjupiter on the degree of the 4th with Ketu. The 1st & 10th Mars/Saturn = Moon 0 Gemini. Moon opposite Pluto on cusps which I like to see for floods...having pushed out early by one. There is solace to be found in most any ayanamsa. Any fool for Djwhal Khul? Dark*Star ________________________________ Christopher Kevill wrote: > Therese, > > Well, this is interesting as usual but I find the Lahiri ingress into Leo > far more compelling (Aug 16, 2005 12.27.13 CDT) : > > Asc 16Libra34 Mars 16Aries34 > > IC 20Capricorn33 Neptune 22Capricorn03 > > To me, that says death and violence from water more clearly than anything in > the Krishnamurti chart. You couldn't have imagined a better chart for what > has transpired there. > > Lahirily yours, > Christopher > > ps: of course one ingress does not an ayanamsha make. > > - > " therese hamilton " <eastwest > > Monday, September 12, 2005 8:11 AM > Re: Leo Krishnamurti Ingress > > > At 09:34 AM 9/12/05 -0000, fimtinnegan wrote: > > > > >Now I see you use non-equal house division, as is logical. > > > > Actually I use an equal division with the cusp as the center of the house. > > This is from India, and in Hellenistic times was used to judge the > strength > > of a planet in relation to the ascendant. > > > > >I am curious about your reference to Bradley. Wasn't he using a > > >different fiducial than you are? If so, why would you reference his > > >conclusions about Jupiter? > > > > Bradley pointed out that Jupiter correlated with heavy rainfall. Yes, he > > did use a different ayanamsa, but the fact remains: Jupiter correlates > with > > rainfall. The recent translations of Hellenistic (Greek) texts are > bringing > > to light how important the myths of the gods are in understanding the > > planets. They are not only psychological. Mundane-weather astrology often > > links to these old myths (as Neptune is the earthshaker and Jupiter had to > > do with the abundance of water and sometimes storms). Venus is also very > > wet. The psychological benefic/malefic concepts don't apply in weather or > > natural event astrology. > > > > As for yods, if you go to my website, you will see that they are extremely > > common in charts of catastrophes. There are a group of earthquake charts > > that can be studied there. Also there's a close tie-in between the quake > > solar ingress charts and the quake itself. Especially the Moon is a timer. > > (As when the ingress Moon had moved from the IC/nadir to the MC/zenith at > > the time of the innundation for the Gulf Coast.) > > > > http://users.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm > > > > The fact that various kinds of progressions work doesn't invalidate > ingress > > charts that work. Astrology is multi-faceted as are astrologers. > > > > Therese > > > > > > > > > > " How can Pluto be in Sagittarius when it's so close to Antares? " ----- > > > > Post message: > > Subscribe: - > > Un: - > > List owner: -owner > > > > Shortcut URL to this page: > > / > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 13, 2005 Report Share Posted September 13, 2005 Hey DS, Geocentric position, I presume? Plus, who is going to look at the bloody things every three days? The high frequency of the astronomical event doesn't match the singularity of the flooding. Chris - " Dark Star " <pansophia Tuesday, September 13, 2005 12:20 AM Re: Re: Leo Krishnamurti Ingress > > Hi Chris, > > Yes, the Lahiri does show nicely here but falls apart in the Cyril-Donald Lunar > Ingress of Gemini the day before, 8/28 which gives rainy Jjupiter on the degree > of the 4th with Ketu. The 1st & 10th Mars/Saturn = Moon 0 Gemini. Moon opposite > Pluto on cusps which I like to see for floods...having pushed out early by one. > There is solace to be found in most any ayanamsa. Any fool for Djwhal Khul? > > Dark*Star > ________________________________ > > Christopher Kevill wrote: > > > Therese, > > > > Well, this is interesting as usual but I find the Lahiri ingress into Leo > > far more compelling (Aug 16, 2005 12.27.13 CDT) : > > > > Asc 16Libra34 Mars 16Aries34 > > > > IC 20Capricorn33 Neptune 22Capricorn03 > > > > To me, that says death and violence from water more clearly than anything in > > the Krishnamurti chart. You couldn't have imagined a better chart for what > > has transpired there. > > > > Lahirily yours, > > Christopher > > > > ps: of course one ingress does not an ayanamsha make. > > > > - > > " therese hamilton " <eastwest > > > > Monday, September 12, 2005 8:11 AM > > Re: Leo Krishnamurti Ingress > > > > > At 09:34 AM 9/12/05 -0000, fimtinnegan wrote: > > > > > > >Now I see you use non-equal house division, as is logical. > > > > > > Actually I use an equal division with the cusp as the center of the house. > > > This is from India, and in Hellenistic times was used to judge the > > strength > > > of a planet in relation to the ascendant. > > > > > > >I am curious about your reference to Bradley. Wasn't he using a > > > >different fiducial than you are? If so, why would you reference his > > > >conclusions about Jupiter? > > > > > > Bradley pointed out that Jupiter correlated with heavy rainfall. Yes, he > > > did use a different ayanamsa, but the fact remains: Jupiter correlates > > with > > > rainfall. The recent translations of Hellenistic (Greek) texts are > > bringing > > > to light how important the myths of the gods are in understanding the > > > planets. They are not only psychological. Mundane-weather astrology often > > > links to these old myths (as Neptune is the earthshaker and Jupiter had to > > > do with the abundance of water and sometimes storms). Venus is also very > > > wet. The psychological benefic/malefic concepts don't apply in weather or > > > natural event astrology. > > > > > > As for yods, if you go to my website, you will see that they are extremely > > > common in charts of catastrophes. There are a group of earthquake charts > > > that can be studied there. Also there's a close tie-in between the quake > > > solar ingress charts and the quake itself. Especially the Moon is a timer. > > > (As when the ingress Moon had moved from the IC/nadir to the MC/zenith at > > > the time of the innundation for the Gulf Coast.) > > > > > > http://users.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm > > > > > > The fact that various kinds of progressions work doesn't invalidate > > ingress > > > charts that work. Astrology is multi-faceted as are astrologers. > > > > > > Therese > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " How can Pluto be in Sagittarius when it's so close to Antares? " ----- > > > > > > Post message: > > > Subscribe: - > > > Un: - > > > List owner: -owner > > > > > > Shortcut URL to this page: > > > / > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2005 Report Share Posted September 14, 2005 Hello Therese, Sorry about this dumb post. I had failed to read yours completely before throwing your very words back at you. I think I'm trigger happy because of that astro weather group that wants dry conditions from Jupiter on the New Moon angles. The MC degree is so useful in ritualistic work. Rain has been made, a drought broken with Jupiter there in the SLR. When its antithesis Saturn was there the cloudy heavens were opened up for viewing the full duration of the 1991 Mexican total eclipse of the Sun.. Dark*Star ________________________________ Dark Star wrote: > Rainy Jupiter, or JJUPITER PLUVIUS as he was known to the Romans. > _________________________________ > > therese hamilton wrote: > > > Bradley pointed out that Jupiter correlated with heavy rainfall. Yes, he > > did use a different ayanamsa, but the fact remains: Jupiter correlates with > > rainfall. The recent translations of Hellenistic (Greek) texts are bringing > > to light how important the myths of the gods are in understanding the > > planets. They are not only psychological. Mundane-weather astrology often > > links to these old myths (as Neptune is the earthshaker and Jupiter had to > > do with the abundance of water and sometimes storms). > > > " How can Pluto be in Sagittarius when it's so close to Antares? " ----- > > Post message: > Subscribe: - > Un: - > List owner: -owner > > Shortcut URL to this page: > / > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2005 Report Share Posted September 14, 2005 Therese -- " >I am curious about your reference to Bradley. Wasn't he using a >different fiducial than you are? If so, why would you reference his >conclusions about Jupiter? Bradley pointed out that Jupiter correlated with heavy rainfall. Yes, he did use a different ayanamsa, but the fact remains: Jupiter correlates with rainfall. " No, I'm saying that Bradley's conclusions about Jupiter were specifically rooted in the ingresses he studied. Again, my memory may be wrong, but I think his rainfall studies were based on ingresses. Thus, if one uses a different fiducial, one cannot cite Bradley's Jupiter/rainfall correlation. Of course, other authorities or experiences could be cited, but not Bradley. His own Jupiter/rainfall correlation is irrelevant unless you accept his fiducial. In any case, regardless of fiducials, I doubt ingress charts are useful for mundane astrology. They aren't " radical " or related to a " radical " -- they're merely the transit of the sun to a point in the ecliptic, abstracted from any underlying radical chart. (At best, they might be described as a solar return to a point that exists either independently of the existence of the sun, or to a point the sun held in some master chart cast for a million or billion BCE; for Lahiri, they are twelfth-harmonic transits -- of all things -- to the ecliptical projection of the position of Spica . . . of all things.) In the hierarchy of charts, it seems to me that ingresses would be completely subordinate to a great many other charts, and perhaps be all but useless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2005 Report Share Posted September 14, 2005 O Canada! I should have mentioned that the lunar ingresses are for the timing of events already promised by the big charts -- Solar Capricorn Ingress enlarged upon by the Aries and Cancer. The tropical showed very well also. In that Gemini lunar under question...Moon on the XIIth. cusp opposite Pluto speaks to me as flood because of personal natal imprinting. It might at least whisper to anyone else. For the first warning of flood, go to the Solar Libra of last October to see Moon-Pluto Xth., ASC = Uranus/Neptune and the chockfull VIIIth. house. This chart wants lots of dead people. No astrologer would have seen this unless he lived there or had client inquiry as reason to do the work. The only astro forecasting of the area I saw failed to see it coming using new moons. Dark*Star ________________________________ Christopher Kevill wrote: > Hey DS, > > Geocentric position, I presume? Plus, who is going to look at the bloody > things every three days? The high frequency of the astronomical event > doesn't match the singularity of the flooding. > > Chris > > - > " Dark Star " <pansophia > > Tuesday, September 13, 2005 12:20 AM > Re: Re: Leo Krishnamurti Ingress > > > > > Hi Chris, > > > > Yes, the Lahiri does show nicely here but falls apart in the Cyril-Donald > Lunar > > Ingress of Gemini the day before, 8/28 which gives rainy Jjupiter on the > degree > > of the 4th with Ketu. The 1st & 10th Mars/Saturn = Moon 0 Gemini. Moon > opposite > > Pluto on cusps which I like to see for floods...having pushed out early by > one. > > There is solace to be found in most any ayanamsa. Any fool for Djwhal > Khul? > > > > Dark*Star > > ________________________________ > > > > Christopher Kevill wrote: > > > > > Therese, > > > > > > Well, this is interesting as usual but I find the Lahiri ingress into > Leo > > > far more compelling (Aug 16, 2005 12.27.13 CDT) : > > > > > > Asc 16Libra34 Mars 16Aries34 > > > > > > IC 20Capricorn33 Neptune 22Capricorn03 > > > > > > To me, that says death and violence from water more clearly than > anything in > > > the Krishnamurti chart. You couldn't have imagined a better chart for > what > > > has transpired there. > > > > > > Lahirily yours, > > > Christopher > > > > > > ps: of course one ingress does not an ayanamsha make. > > > > > > - > > > " therese hamilton " <eastwest > > > > > > Monday, September 12, 2005 8:11 AM > > > Re: Leo Krishnamurti Ingress > > > > > > > At 09:34 AM 9/12/05 -0000, fimtinnegan wrote: > > > > > > > > >Now I see you use non-equal house division, as is logical. > > > > > > > > Actually I use an equal division with the cusp as the center of the > house. > > > > This is from India, and in Hellenistic times was used to judge the > > > strength > > > > of a planet in relation to the ascendant. > > > > > > > > >I am curious about your reference to Bradley. Wasn't he using a > > > > >different fiducial than you are? If so, why would you reference his > > > > >conclusions about Jupiter? > > > > > > > > Bradley pointed out that Jupiter correlated with heavy rainfall. Yes, > he > > > > did use a different ayanamsa, but the fact remains: Jupiter correlates > > > with > > > > rainfall. The recent translations of Hellenistic (Greek) texts are > > > bringing > > > > to light how important the myths of the gods are in understanding the > > > > planets. They are not only psychological. Mundane-weather astrology > often > > > > links to these old myths (as Neptune is the earthshaker and Jupiter > had to > > > > do with the abundance of water and sometimes storms). Venus is also > very > > > > wet. The psychological benefic/malefic concepts don't apply in weather > or > > > > natural event astrology. > > > > > > > > As for yods, if you go to my website, you will see that they are > extremely > > > > common in charts of catastrophes. There are a group of earthquake > charts > > > > that can be studied there. Also there's a close tie-in between the > quake > > > > solar ingress charts and the quake itself. Especially the Moon is a > timer. > > > > (As when the ingress Moon had moved from the IC/nadir to the MC/zenith > at > > > > the time of the innundation for the Gulf Coast.) > > > > > > > > http://users.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm > > > > > > > > The fact that various kinds of progressions work doesn't invalidate > > > ingress > > > > charts that work. Astrology is multi-faceted as are astrologers. > > > > > > > > Therese > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " How can Pluto be in Sagittarius when it's so close to Antares? " ----- > > > > > > > > Post message: > > > > Subscribe: - > > > > Un: - > > > > List owner: -owner > > > > > > > > Shortcut URL to this page: > > > > / > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2005 Report Share Posted September 14, 2005 Mr. DS - I'm afraid I don't see the reason why the previous Libra ingress would be important for anything that occurred in Aug the following year. You're dining at the Ingress Buffet here, no? I also don't see the Cap tropical ingress as showing anything interesting. No big afflictions there and not much water either. By comparison, the Lahiri Capsolar is loaded -- Saturn opposes Sun within 3 minutes and the nodes are on the mc/ic within a degree. Moon is in the 8th square by Mars within one degree. Mercury and Venus conjoin on the exact degree of the equal 6th house cusp. Not a happy chart. Not huge in the water department, but then again, Cancer rises so we may have to be content with that: rising water levels!. It seems more logical to me that if we're using ingresses, use either the Capsolar or the Aries solar for an annual type perspective and then narrow it down to the sign ingress of the month involved (or the month to come, if we're on the ball enough to actually be predictive astrologers). I agree that these locality based ingress charts are near useless for prediction, as you say, unless you're living in NO and look at them as a matter of course. They have to show up for the capital city or they're no damn good at all. The Lahiri Capsolar for DC doesn't show much at all, for example. Mind you, the Lahiri Aries solar (Jan 13 2005 2.38 pm Washington, DC) is a thing of beauty: Mars conjunct Neptune within ten minutes exactly squaring the MC within 20 minutes. And there's your favourite Moon-Pluto opposition within a degree. And of course Cancer rises. But I know you won't care about any of this because Lahiri is the anti-Christ. signed, Nanook of the North - " Dark Star " <pansophia Wednesday, September 14, 2005 12:11 PM Re: Re: Leo Krishnamurti Ingress > > O Canada! > > I should have mentioned that the lunar ingresses are for the timing of events > already promised by the big charts -- Solar Capricorn Ingress enlarged upon by > the Aries and Cancer. The tropical showed very well also. In that Gemini lunar > under question...Moon on the XIIth. cusp opposite Pluto speaks to me as flood > because of personal natal imprinting. It might at least whisper to anyone else. > For the first warning of flood, go to the Solar Libra of last October to see > Moon-Pluto Xth., ASC = Uranus/Neptune and the chockfull VIIIth. house. This > chart wants lots of dead people. No astrologer would have seen this unless he > lived there or had client inquiry as reason to do the work. The only astro > forecasting of the area I saw failed to see it coming using new moons. > > Dark*Star > ________________________________ > > Christopher Kevill wrote: > > > Hey DS, > > > > Geocentric position, I presume? Plus, who is going to look at the bloody > > things every three days? The high frequency of the astronomical event > > doesn't match the singularity of the flooding. > > > > Chris > > > > - > > " Dark Star " <pansophia > > > > Tuesday, September 13, 2005 12:20 AM > > Re: Re: Leo Krishnamurti Ingress > > > > > > > > Hi Chris, > > > > > > Yes, the Lahiri does show nicely here but falls apart in the Cyril-Donald > > Lunar > > > Ingress of Gemini the day before, 8/28 which gives rainy Jjupiter on the > > degree > > > of the 4th with Ketu. The 1st & 10th Mars/Saturn = Moon 0 Gemini. Moon > > opposite > > > Pluto on cusps which I like to see for floods...having pushed out early by > > one. > > > There is solace to be found in most any ayanamsa. Any fool for Djwhal > > Khul? > > > > > > Dark*Star > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > Christopher Kevill wrote: > > > > > > > Therese, > > > > > > > > Well, this is interesting as usual but I find the Lahiri ingress into > > Leo > > > > far more compelling (Aug 16, 2005 12.27.13 CDT) : > > > > > > > > Asc 16Libra34 Mars 16Aries34 > > > > > > > > IC 20Capricorn33 Neptune 22Capricorn03 > > > > > > > > To me, that says death and violence from water more clearly than > > anything in > > > > the Krishnamurti chart. You couldn't have imagined a better chart for > > what > > > > has transpired there. > > > > > > > > Lahirily yours, > > > > Christopher > > > > > > > > ps: of course one ingress does not an ayanamsha make. > > > > > > > > - > > > > " therese hamilton " <eastwest > > > > > > > > Monday, September 12, 2005 8:11 AM > > > > Re: Leo Krishnamurti Ingress > > > > > > > > > At 09:34 AM 9/12/05 -0000, fimtinnegan wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >Now I see you use non-equal house division, as is logical. > > > > > > > > > > Actually I use an equal division with the cusp as the center of the > > house. > > > > > This is from India, and in Hellenistic times was used to judge the > > > > strength > > > > > of a planet in relation to the ascendant. > > > > > > > > > > >I am curious about your reference to Bradley. Wasn't he using a > > > > > >different fiducial than you are? If so, why would you reference his > > > > > >conclusions about Jupiter? > > > > > > > > > > Bradley pointed out that Jupiter correlated with heavy rainfall. Yes, > > he > > > > > did use a different ayanamsa, but the fact remains: Jupiter correlates > > > > with > > > > > rainfall. The recent translations of Hellenistic (Greek) texts are > > > > bringing > > > > > to light how important the myths of the gods are in understanding the > > > > > planets. They are not only psychological. Mundane-weather astrology > > often > > > > > links to these old myths (as Neptune is the earthshaker and Jupiter > > had to > > > > > do with the abundance of water and sometimes storms). Venus is also > > very > > > > > wet. The psychological benefic/malefic concepts don't apply in weather > > or > > > > > natural event astrology. > > > > > > > > > > As for yods, if you go to my website, you will see that they are > > extremely > > > > > common in charts of catastrophes. There are a group of earthquake > > charts > > > > > that can be studied there. Also there's a close tie-in between the > > quake > > > > > solar ingress charts and the quake itself. Especially the Moon is a > > timer. > > > > > (As when the ingress Moon had moved from the IC/nadir to the MC/zenith > > at > > > > > the time of the innundation for the Gulf Coast.) > > > > > > > > > > http://users.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm > > > > > > > > > > The fact that various kinds of progressions work doesn't invalidate > > > > ingress > > > > > charts that work. Astrology is multi-faceted as are astrologers. > > > > > > > > > > Therese > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " How can Pluto be in Sagittarius when it's so close to Antares? " ----- > > > > > > > > > > Post message: > > > > > Subscribe: - > > > > > Un: - > > > > > List owner: -owner > > > > > > > > > > Shortcut URL to this page: > > > > > / > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2005 Report Share Posted September 14, 2005 It is the solar eclipses and ingresses that rule. All the charts we do fall on their knees in fealty before them, I should think. You don't find the horror and devastation of 9/11 in the NYC Solar Cancer Ingress of June 17, 2001?? This chart wants lots of dead people too...Ketu on the VIIIth. placidian cusp 45 Midheaven. Dark*Star ________________________________ fimtinnegan wrote: > In any case, regardless of fiducials, I doubt ingress charts are useful > for mundane astrology. They aren't " radical " or related to > a " radical " -- they're merely the transit of the sun to a point in the > ecliptic, abstracted from any underlying radical chart. (At best, they > might be described as a solar return to a point that exists either > independently of the existence of the sun, or to a point the sun held > in some master chart cast for a million or billion BCE; for Lahiri, > they are twelfth-harmonic transits -- of all things -- to the > ecliptical projection of the position of Spica . . . of all things.) > In the hierarchy of charts, it seems to me that ingresses would be > completely subordinate to a great many other charts, and perhaps be all > but useless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2005 Report Share Posted September 15, 2005 At 10:22 PM 9/13/05 -0700, Dark*Star wrote: > >Hello Therese, > >Sorry about this dumb post. I had failed to read yours completely before throwing >your very words back at you. I think I'm trigger happy because of that astro >weather group that wants dry conditions from Jupiter on the New Moon angles. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ No problem, D*S. We live in crazy times. Therese Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2005 Report Share Posted September 15, 2005 At 07:45 AM 9/14/05 -0000, fimtinnegan wrote: >In the hierarchy of charts, it seems to me that ingresses would be >completely subordinate to a great many other charts, and perhaps be all >but useless. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ To each his own, fimtinnegan. Perhaps a dedicated ingress user will want to argue your point. For myself, my time is too valuable and too limited to argue about a technique that I've seen prove itself many times over. Sincerely, Therese Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2005 Report Share Posted September 15, 2005 Hallo Chris, I was compelled to use the Libra Ingress because that's where I found the genesis of Katrina. Though tired and tattered by now at the end of its run, it could still send up two Annlunars speak worthy to the occasion...Aug.14 and Sept.10. In the tropical Cap Solar I liked: Sun-Pluto-Vulcan at ASC: Sun/Saturn = MC: Moon-Node square Saturn : : lottsa dead people. That's an absolutely sterling example you've presented in the Lahiri and it damn well better work...didn't the Indian government spend a million dollars in 1950 looking for it? You have used it very impressively for some years now. Lahiri is your snug harbor. I gave up chasing ayanamsas when Mohan Koparkar once asked me...didn't I know that every village in India had its own. One zodiac's water is another zodiac's fire. There is your buffet. Dark*Star _________________________________ Christopher Kevill wrote: > Mr. DS - > > I'm afraid I don't see the reason why the previous Libra ingress would be > important for anything that occurred in Aug the following year. You're > dining at the Ingress Buffet here, no? > > I also don't see the Cap tropical ingress as showing anything interesting. > No big afflictions there and not much water either. > > By comparison, the Lahiri Capsolar is loaded -- Saturn opposes Sun within 3 > minutes and the nodes are on the mc/ic within a degree. Moon is in the 8th > square by Mars within one degree. Mercury and Venus conjoin on the exact > degree of the equal 6th house cusp. Not a happy chart. > > Not huge in the water department, but then again, Cancer rises so we may > have to be content with that: rising water levels!. > > It seems more logical to me that if we're using ingresses, use either the > Capsolar or the Aries solar for an annual type perspective and then narrow > it down to the sign ingress of the month involved (or the month to come, if > we're on the ball enough to actually be predictive astrologers). > > I agree that these locality based ingress charts are near useless for > prediction, as you say, unless you're living in NO and look at them as a > matter of course. They have to show up for the capital city or they're no > damn good at all. > > The Lahiri Capsolar for DC doesn't show much at all, for example. Mind > you, the Lahiri Aries solar (Jan 13 2005 2.38 pm Washington, DC) is a thing > of beauty: Mars conjunct Neptune within ten minutes exactly squaring the MC > within 20 minutes. And there's your favourite Moon-Pluto opposition within > a degree. And of course Cancer rises. > > But I know you won't care about any of this because Lahiri is the > anti-Christ. > > signed, > Nanook of the North > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2005 Report Share Posted September 15, 2005 Dear DS On the tropical Capsolar: if you have to resort to midpoints without any normal placements, then you're in trouble. Sorry, annulars are what exactly? It's not that I'm a card-carrying member of the Lahiri glee club. I use it out of laziness mostly. To be honest, I don't use ingresses at all. After looking at some of these juicy hits though, I may be changing my mind. Maybe my point is that all sorts of ayanamshas can work here. Why just limit yourself to one the way most astrologers seem to? I like the idea of Buzz/Bradley and the phone number ayanamsha. In the end, it will be the astrologer who consistently predicts from their fave ayanamsha who will change the dynamics of this interminable round of pushmepullyu. Chris ps. Funny you mention Vulcan, your namesake. Last night (on Sept 14th of all days) there was an astronomer on Coast to coast am discussing the likelihood of the existence of the Sun's binary dark star twin, named Vulcan apparently. - " Dark Star " <pansophia Thursday, September 15, 2005 12:56 PM Re: Re: Leo Krishnamurti Ingress > > Hallo Chris, > > I was compelled to use the Libra Ingress because that's where I found the > genesis of Katrina. Though tired and tattered by now at the end of its run, it > could still send up two Annlunars speak worthy to the occasion...Aug.14 and > Sept.10. > > In the tropical Cap Solar I liked: Sun-Pluto-Vulcan at ASC: Sun/Saturn = MC: > Moon-Node square Saturn : : lottsa dead people. > > That's an absolutely sterling example you've presented in the Lahiri and it damn > well better work...didn't the Indian government spend a million dollars in 1950 > looking for it? You have used it very impressively for some years now. Lahiri is > your snug harbor. I gave up chasing ayanamsas when Mohan Koparkar once asked > me...didn't I know that every village in India had its own. > > One zodiac's water is another zodiac's fire. There is your buffet. > > Dark*Star > _________________________________ > > Christopher Kevill wrote: > > > Mr. DS - > > > > I'm afraid I don't see the reason why the previous Libra ingress would be > > important for anything that occurred in Aug the following year. You're > > dining at the Ingress Buffet here, no? > > > > I also don't see the Cap tropical ingress as showing anything interesting. > > No big afflictions there and not much water either. > > > > By comparison, the Lahiri Capsolar is loaded -- Saturn opposes Sun within 3 > > minutes and the nodes are on the mc/ic within a degree. Moon is in the 8th > > square by Mars within one degree. Mercury and Venus conjoin on the exact > > degree of the equal 6th house cusp. Not a happy chart. > > > > Not huge in the water department, but then again, Cancer rises so we may > > have to be content with that: rising water levels!. > > > > It seems more logical to me that if we're using ingresses, use either the > > Capsolar or the Aries solar for an annual type perspective and then narrow > > it down to the sign ingress of the month involved (or the month to come, if > > we're on the ball enough to actually be predictive astrologers). > > > > I agree that these locality based ingress charts are near useless for > > prediction, as you say, unless you're living in NO and look at them as a > > matter of course. They have to show up for the capital city or they're no > > damn good at all. > > > > The Lahiri Capsolar for DC doesn't show much at all, for example. Mind > > you, the Lahiri Aries solar (Jan 13 2005 2.38 pm Washington, DC) is a thing > > of beauty: Mars conjunct Neptune within ten minutes exactly squaring the MC > > within 20 minutes. And there's your favourite Moon-Pluto opposition within > > a degree. And of course Cancer rises. > > > > But I know you won't care about any of this because Lahiri is the > > anti-Christ. > > > > signed, > > Nanook of the North > " How can Pluto be in Sagittarius when it's so close to Antares? " ----- > > Post message: > Subscribe: - > Un: - > List owner: -owner > > Shortcut URL to this page: > / > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2005 Report Share Posted September 16, 2005 Christolph...because I know you love Quebec... I only use mid/points after milking the obvious angular planets and then only visual or felt ones, never the dial. Now don't be so dismissive of those handsome little fellows. First let's spell it correctly. Annlunars are the lunar returns every month spun off the solar return Moon. Yes, the little buggers have quarties. Buzz is proving a heretic to the Gospel ///// Already you're infected! D.S. Christopher Kevill wrote: > Dear DS > > On the tropical Capsolar: if you have to resort to midpoints without any > normal placements, then you're in trouble. > > Sorry, annulars are what exactly? > > It's not that I'm a card-carrying member of the Lahiri glee club. I use it > out of laziness mostly. To be honest, I don't use ingresses at all. After > looking at some of these juicy hits though, I may be changing my mind. > > Maybe my point is that all sorts of ayanamshas can work here. Why just > limit yourself to one the way most astrologers seem to? I like the idea of > Buzz/Bradley and the phone number ayanamsha. > > In the end, it will be the astrologer who consistently predicts from their > fave ayanamsha who will change the dynamics of this interminable round of > pushmepullyu. > > Chris > ps. Funny you mention Vulcan, your namesake. Last night (on Sept 14th of > all days) there was an astronomer on Coast to coast am discussing the > likelihood of the existence of the Sun's binary dark star twin, named Vulcan > apparently. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2005 Report Share Posted September 16, 2005 DS, Thanks for the refresher on annlunars. I still can't get too enthused about the midpoints esp in this particular chart and especially when other aya. charts are that much clearer. But we all have our weaknesses. Mine to stark, shouting angular planets, yours to handsome little halfsums. Chris ps Quebeckers are not diaspora from Upper Thuringia. - " Dark Star " <pansophia Thursday, September 15, 2005 3:38 PM Re: Re: Leo Krishnamurti Ingress > > Christolph...because I know you love Quebec... > > I only use mid/points after milking the obvious angular planets and then only > visual or felt ones, never the dial. Now don't be so dismissive of those > handsome little fellows. First let's spell it correctly. Annlunars are the lunar > returns every month spun off the solar return Moon. Yes, the little buggers have > quarties. Buzz is proving a heretic to the Gospel ///// Already you're > infected! > > D.S. > > Christopher Kevill wrote: > > > Dear DS > > > > On the tropical Capsolar: if you have to resort to midpoints without any > > normal placements, then you're in trouble. > > > > Sorry, annulars are what exactly? > > > > It's not that I'm a card-carrying member of the Lahiri glee club. I use it > > out of laziness mostly. To be honest, I don't use ingresses at all. After > > looking at some of these juicy hits though, I may be changing my mind. > > > > Maybe my point is that all sorts of ayanamshas can work here. Why just > > limit yourself to one the way most astrologers seem to? I like the idea of > > Buzz/Bradley and the phone number ayanamsha. > > > > In the end, it will be the astrologer who consistently predicts from their > > fave ayanamsha who will change the dynamics of this interminable round of > > pushmepullyu. > > > > Chris > > ps. Funny you mention Vulcan, your namesake. Last night (on Sept 14th of > > all days) there was an astronomer on Coast to coast am discussing the > > likelihood of the existence of the Sun's binary dark star twin, named Vulcan > > apparently. > " How can Pluto be in Sagittarius when it's so close to Antares? " ----- > > Post message: > Subscribe: - > Un: - > List owner: -owner > > Shortcut URL to this page: > / > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2005 Report Share Posted September 18, 2005 , " fimtinnegan " <kh1100@n...> wrote: <snip> > In any case, regardless of fiducials, I doubt ingress charts are useful > for mundane astrology. They aren't " radical " or related to > a " radical " -- they're merely the transit of the sun to a point in the > ecliptic, abstracted from any underlying radical chart. (At best, they > might be described as a solar return to a point that exists either > independently of the existence of the sun, or to a point the sun held > in some master chart cast for a million or billion BCE... Bradley held (and I think I agree with him) that the Sidereal Zodiac exists in some real, physical sense. Ingresses of the Sun are to real, structural elements in space (perhaps just " local space " in the vicinity of the Sun). Claudius Ptolemy held the reverse opinion of your hierarchical scheme. He wrote that individual horoscopes are completely subordinate to the overall actions of mundane events. (He used new/Full Moons and eclipses, specifically.) Of course, one is always free to have one's own opinion on this. -Derek Kinsolving Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2005 Report Share Posted September 20, 2005 >Derek Kinsolving wrote: > Bradley held (and I think I agree with him) that the Sidereal Zodiac > exists in some real, physical sense. Ingresses of the Sun are to > real, structural elements in space (perhaps just " local space " in > the vicinity of the Sun). > > Claudius Ptolemy held the reverse opinion of your hierarchical > scheme. He wrote that individual horoscopes are completely > subordinate to the overall actions of mundane events. (He used > new/Full Moons and eclipses, specifically.) > > Of course, one is always free to have one's own opinion on this. > > > -Derek Kinsolving Derek -- I appreciate your reference to Ptolemy. No doubt many others could be added to the list of those who sought generally applicable charts and found, or settled upon, ingresses and/or lunations. I can't get over my sense that ingresses and lunations -- and especially eclipses, which are merely lunations near the nodes -- are " default " attempts to discover charts unrelated to events. (By " events, " I include events that are imperceptible, as is certainly the case for many unknown but extraordinary charts.) These defaults are the best we can do -- which is not to say that they are otherwise of value, though indeed they might be. Astrologers would like to find mundane charts that are generally applicable. Many such charts could be imagined (say, the chart for the moment a planet turns retrograde, though that wouldn't be any more impressive to me in theory). The best guess we've made is the lunation; the second-best is the ingress. The only way to judge charts is in comparison to other charts. Ingresses and lunations just haven't been impressive enough to me, RELATIVE to how impressive other charts -- charts rooted in radical charts -- can be. (Radical charts can't be very impressive in themselves; they can only be impressive in regard to the charts rooted in them.) As you point out, ingresses may actually be " events. " Maybe they are. I still don't find them impressive (practically), or worthy of any precedence (theoretically) among conceivable mundane charts. I'd like to, and in the past I have done so, for the sake of being open- minded in doing anecdotal research. And I praise Bradley in general. Still, that doesn't change my conclusions on this topic. But you're right in reminding me that my statements were too broad. They were more provocative than persuasive. The provocation, more plainly stated, is this: Are ingresses (or lunations, depending on the astrologer) really to be included in any list of " first principles " of astrology? If so, why? Had Bradley lived to an old age, I suspect he would have continued his research . . . and discovered that the accumulating data caused his fiducial-proving ingress data to regress to the mean, signifying nothing. (Of course, the same can't be said of Gauquelin. But as weird as Gauquelin's research is, it's not as weird as casting charts for sidereal ingresses and tabulating angularity relative to weather extremes or natural disasters. Astrologers should consider such things; and -- as I suggested -- the best I can do, open-mindedly, is consider an analogy bewteen ingresses and returns ... which are very weird, too, but overwhelmingly impressive, relative to other charts.) Thanks, KH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2005 Report Share Posted September 20, 2005 whoops -- I wrote: " Radical charts can't be very impressive in themselves; they can only be impressive in regard to the charts rooted in them. " I was referring to charts of themselves, not in the aggregate (which is Gauquelin's territory). By " impressive, " I mean that sense of " WOW! " inspired by returns and progressions, which are so specific relative to the life-long or ages-long generality of natal or other radical charts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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