Tropical Taurus Test Chart Report

[Guest guest]

At 12:19 AM 8/31/06 -0400, Don wrote:

>Tropical Test Chart

>April 23, 1974

>7:11 AM

>Oakland, California

>www.AstrologyResearch.net

 

Don, I'm going to choose what is most true or false about this man, and

ignore the rest. Otherwise my post would be so long that no one would read it.

 

>Chapter 1: How You Approach Life and How You Appear To Others

>

>Taurus Rising:

>

> You have a sensible and realistic outlook on life and your two feet

are always planted firmly on the ground...Others often see you as a rock of

strength, solid, reliable, dependable, and constant.

 

Yes (I'll call him Gerald) has all of these traits. But question: Is Venus

like this? Is the Moon? Where do these traits come from? O.K., tropical

astrology would say he fixidity of Taurus. Sidereal astrologers would say a

good Mars, the planet of successful and determinded sportmen like Tiger Woods.

 

>Though you have a gentle, even soft, appearance...

 

No, a very masculine appearance, though considered handsome in the usual

masculine way. As a child Gerald had the round lunar face, but this turned

to rugged handsomeness in later years. He's not like Orlando Bloom, whose

handsomeness is more feminine. Or Johnny Depp who can also look very feminine.

 

>> When you have a purpose, you are extremely fixed, immovable, and

bull-headed about it. Your obstinacy is often infuriating to others...

 

Determined but not stubborn. This is an overstatement one often sees in

Tropical texts. The rest of this paragraph is too flowery and many-worded

to reply to.

 

>...You are also a great lover of beauty and your tastes are basically

conventional or classic - not modern.

 

This is sort of hypothetical and built on word-spin. What are conventional

or classic tastes? In what area? Lover of beauty? Gerald's practical nature

overshadows this. His wardrobe is simple, plain and geared toward his work.

(Which I'm not mentioning on-line because I like to use this chart on astro

forums. No one has yet guessed his line of work.)

 

>Moon Conjunct Asc.:

>

> You are impressionable, sympathetic, and responsive to the emotional

tone and atmosphere around you. You harmonize, blend, and adapt yourself to

other people.

 

No, Gerald is a total individual and mostly into his own view. He isn't

much interested in or aware of 'emotional tone' as far as I can make out.

He lives very much inside himself--which I might point out, is very

Plutonian. (Siderealists place Pluto with Aries if it goes with any sign at

all.) Gerald definitely does not adapt to other people, though he'll try to

adapt to his wife's wishes. They work well together. (Gerald has 7th house

lord, Venus, exactly sextile his Moon.)

 

>>Often you are rather quiet, just listening and feeling.

 

Nope, quiet and into his own thoughts. Once I asked him what he was

thinking so quietly, and he said he was planning new inroads in his work.

He did not even know who was in the room. If he's quiet, he's planning for

his work. It was always like this.

 

>Chapter 2: The Inner You: Your Real Motivation

>

>Sun in Taurus:

>

> You are a steadfast and patient soul, capable of tremendous devotion,

dedication, endurance, and constancy. The ability to follow through and

stick with things is one of your greatest assets.

 

This is true, following through with determination is one of Gerald's

strong traits. But what has this to do with Venus or the Moon? The steady

Sun is exalted in sidereal Aries, and the Sun's traits also show through in

this sign.

 

>>You have a very practical nature and want to see concrete, tangible

results for your efforts,

 

Very true, and can we remember that Mars is the most practical planet of

all, and Venus and the Moon two of the least practical?

 

And you are not one for spinning wild dreams that are unlikely to come into

fruition. Most of your " wild dreams " have to do with material achievements,

well-being, and security, for you have a great love of the physical world

and you want to experience and enjoy it to the full.

 

The physical world...practicality...yes. Mars is the most physical planet

of all. But the Moon on the ascendant should open the mind to imagination

and the ability to plan--dreams. Does he report mention this?

 

>>In fact, you can be enormously lazy at times and have a tendency to

overindulge in good food and other earthly pleasures.

 

No, Gerald is interested in keeping busy and staying in physical shape.

Eats when necessary, not into 'earthly pleasures.' He has a good, steady

marriage, The two work together.

 

>You also love the beauty of the natural world and probably prefer a serene

country setting rather than an urban life style.

 

Lives in the city where he has the opportunito to pursue the work he

enjoys. Enjoys city life and sometimes travels to San Francisco for 'time

out' or to visit friends. Likes camping, also, however. I expect in later

years he might enjoy country living.

 

>> At heart your needs are simple and you are easy to please...

 

This entire paragraph is one of those wordy ones that I can't follow. So

I'll continue to pick out only the statements that ring a bell for Gerald,

pro or con.

 

>You have three major faults: one is your bull-headed obstinacy.

 

Gerald isn't obstinate, only determined. This is an example of Tropical

over-kill.

 

>The second is your unwillingness to deviate from your safe, predictable

routine.

 

Another example of Tropical over-kill. Gerald will go off on a new path if

he notices a door is closing. This recently happened when he took a side

road to a newer career option.

 

>>And the third is your tendency to always insist upon realism and

undervalue the imaginative, speculative, and fanciful - in other words, you

lack the ability to play with ideas and possibilities, to open your mind to

the new.

 

This is a statement that belongs with the planets rather than a sign of the

zodiac. This is an example of an extreme statement that will set vulnerable

readers into a tailspin.

 

>Sun in 12th house:

>

> You tend to get involved in the helping professions or in activities

where your efforts are hidden, behind the scenes, unacknowledged, or

unknown to the public. Asserting yourself or getting up in front of an

audience may be exceedingly uncomfortable for you.

 

Absolutely untrue, all of it. Why is this in the report when both G.W. and

Bill Clinton have 12th house suns????

 

I'm not going to go through the planetary aspects and positions since they

are cookbook delineations and the same for both tropical and sidereal. Now

I'll go to the sidereal Aries post.

 

You will be getting the idea that I absolutely hate these computer reports,

and you would be right.

 

Therese

[Guest guest]

Therese,

That was some terrfic discussion there.

Millions go by these reports when the truth needs more scrutiny.

The world needs to know more of these tropical-sidereal

interrelationships. I am curious if you have ever thought about

writing a book on these same lines. I am sure many would love to know

that.

So if I understood correctly, sidereal aries is not that macho guy in

the bar fight. Its more like an internally focused strength that

depicts Aries more clearly?

 

From your other posts:

1. Saturn is not about focus if it is in ascendant or even if it is

anywhere else? That's the first time I heard that. Typical

capricornian description (both sidereal and tropical) is that they are

about one thing and that is focus. And finish everything that they

start. Have you seen cases real cases where that view of Cayce is

borne out to be true ?

 

Since in that same post you mention moon is casual therefore not

reliable as far as practicality goes, so the opposite sign, that is

capricorn, ruled by Saturn should be the realiable one, one would assume.

 

Or is it that you consider capricorn reliable but not Saturn itself,

in the sense of completing things that were started.

 

2. About navamsa and natal, what's the best possible ( hopefully

free!)software where one can make concetric circles chart, that is

natal inside, navamsa outside or vice versa.

I have wanted in that fashion for myself for a long time.

 

3. It was also interesting to note that some siderealists consider

Pluto as a ruler of Aries and not Scorpio.

 

4. Role of Jupiter in sidereal Pisces being somewhat tropical Aries

like. Pisces sure are not flimsy. DEniro I belive has Pisces in 10th

house. He plays gangstas with conviction all the time. Brando had

pisces stellium too. I suspect Copolla also has Pisces Sun.From his

interviews he doesn't appear a very rash type, but he fought many

battles with studios. George Lucas the tropical Taurean is a sidereal

aries, which does come across as went his own way right from the

beginning and wanted to have total control over his creative ambitions.

 

best,

Bliss

[Guest guest]

At 06:08 PM 9/1/06 -0000, Bliss wrote:

>Therese,

>That was some terrfic discussion there.

 

Thank you, Bliss!

 

>Millions go by these reports when the truth needs more scrutiny.

>The world needs to know more of these tropical-sidereal

>interrelationships. I am curious if you have ever thought about

>writing a book on these same lines. I am sure many would love to know

>that.

 

I did write a zodiac sign book back in the mid-80s, and sent it to Weiser

in New York. It also included material on the lunar mansions and how the

mansions tone different areas of the signs. Weiser wanted me to re-do some

of the book and include more mansion material. The book had been done on a

typwriter, I had children at home, and the re-write was never finished.

Right now I'm putting exerpts from the book on my web site--rewritten

somewhat to include modern discoveries. I do hope to publish a paper

edition sometime. Finding enough concentrated time is the problem. Maybe

this winter I can get it all on the computer. I know material can be

scanned, but there are a million little details to change from the typed copy.

 

>So if I understood correctly, sidereal aries is not that macho guy in

>the bar fight. Its more like an internally focused strength that

>depicts Aries more clearly?

 

That's right, Aries expresses the energy of an inward directed Mars while

Scorpio (that, is tropical Sagittarius) expresses the outer, more physical

energy of Mars. It's like this with all the planetary lords. Each of the

five planets has an 'inner' sign and an 'outer' sidereal sign. These are

the old day and night signs that have been there since Hellenistic times.

 

>From your other posts:

>1. Saturn is not about focus if it is in ascendant or even if it is

>anywhere else? That's the first time I heard that.

 

Edgar Cayce clued me in on this many years ago. Look at the astrological

history of Saturn. Saturn ruled the lowly worker and slaves, and it takes a

lot of concentraton to make it to a position of power and status. The

normal worker...well, look at the sad plight of the Blacks in New Orleans.

They are getting little help from the Jupiter people in power. They are

leading a Saturnian life right now.

 

However, Saturn can get obsessively occupied with some little detail, which

is not the same as focusing on a climb. Venessa mentioned how she was more

or less compulsive in cleaning the carpet. This is because while Jupiter is

broad, Saturn is narrow. Thus, the narrow focus. Everyone will know if a

person climbs to the top of the political ladder (Jupiter), but will the

world know if Venessa is the greatest carpet cleaner around?

 

>Typical

>capricornian description (both sidereal and tropical) is that they are

>about one thing and that is focus.

 

Forget the sidereal! Tropical Capricorn is Sidereal Sagittarius ruled by

Jupiter. Focus and the climb to the top--that's Jupiter. Tropical signs

have really messed up our understanding of Jupiter and Saturn. Now tropical

astrologers say that Saturn is ambitious. Nothing could be further from the

truth. Jupiter was king go the Gods. Jupiter is power and prestige. Jupiter

along with Mars is ambition.

 

>...And finish everything that they start.

 

That is sidereal Sagittarius.

 

>Have you seen cases real cases where that view of Cayce is

>borne out to be true ?

 

Well, we have Venessa here on this forum. One of my best friends has Saturn

on the ascendant, and she doesn't lead a focused life. She's very casual

and comfortable to be with, but I'd have trouble living with her as I like

to concentrate my energy. A friend here in town has the Moon with Saturn,

and she is the most unfocused person I have ever met. Totally scattered.

For 6 weeks she's been trying to decide what refrigerator to buy: " I don't

need a frig. " " I only need a freezer. " " I only need a frig, no freezer. "

" I'll buy that one...no, I'll buy this one. " " Hmmm....maybe I'll go to

another city to see if I can get a better deal on a frig. " Her whole life

is like that.

 

>Since in that same post you mention moon is casual therefore not

>reliable as far as practicality goes, so the opposite sign, that is

>capricorn, ruled by Saturn should be the realiable one, one would assume.

 

Not necessarily since opposite signs have some traits in common. However,

we're not talking about signs when it comes to focus and reliability.

That's the planets--Jupiter and perhaps Mars as well. Also the Sun can

focus its energy.

 

>Or is it that you consider capricorn reliable but not Saturn itself...

 

Reliability, a core trait, belongs to the planets, not the signs. Venessa

has the Moon with her chart lord, the Sun, so she will exhibit lunar

traits. But she also has Neptune with navamsa Mercury. I think it must be

diffiuclt for her to keep her mind 'on the ground, so to speak.

 

>2. About navamsa and natal, what's the best possible ( hopefully

>free!)software where one can make concetric circles chart, that is

>natal inside, navamsa outside or vice versa.

>I have wanted in that fashion for myself for a long time.

 

I'm sorry, I don't have information on free software that might do

bi-wheels. I use Solar Fire, but my Vedic program won't do a bi-wheel,

though it prints a nice navamsa chart. Mostly, however, I don't use

bi-wheels. I just put the natal and navamsa charts on the same page. Then I

note the degree on the navamsa ascendant and check to see if any natal

planets in any sign are near that degree. I do the reverse with the natal

chart. But I guess a bi-wheel would make the line-up task easier.

 

>3. It was also interesting to note that some siderealists consider

>Pluto as a ruler of Aries and not Scorpio.

 

It follows a rulership pattern. Aquarius us the first sign on the lunar

(night) side of the zodiac, so we have Aqu-Uranus; Pisces-Neptune; Then

it's Aries-Pluto and perhaps Taurus-Xena, then one more planet to go for

Gemini. Sidereal Gemini already expresses traits of the myths of Apollo.

 

Let's see what the great astronomers finally name Xena, even though at

present they say that Xena isn't a planet. Xena should be Persephone. Even

some astronomers said that because Xena's orbit goes inside Pluto's orbit.

But Persehpone is an asteroid. They should re-name that little asteroid so

Xena can be Persephone.

 

>4. Role of Jupiter in sidereal Pisces being somewhat tropical Aries

>like. Pisces sure are not flimsy. DEniro I belive has Pisces in 10th

>house. He plays gangstas with conviction all the time. Brando had

>pisces stellium too.

 

The infamous Jim Jones (People's Temple) had an angular sidereal Pisces

stellium that included the Moon. One important trait of sidereal Pisces

that no one has noted in Tropical Aries is duality. It's an extremely dual

sign. There may be two sides to the personality that change from black to

white in an instant, or the person may have multiple careers at the same

time, or there may be the hidden side of a criminal who seems totally

normal on the street. Cyril Fagan gave sidereal Pisces a bad score, and

linked it to criminal behavior.

 

>George Lucas the tropical Taurean is a sidereal

>aries, which does come across as went his own way right from the

>beginning and wanted to have total control over his creative ambitions.

 

Yes, and the theme of his movies--STAR WARS (Mars)! How can anyone believe

that Lucas was ruled by Venus? And Lucas is so much into the Mars-ruled

masculine toys in his special effects laboratory. If astrologers would only

open their eyes, they would see no evidence at all for a Tropical zodiac.

 

.....Sorry about the over-statement, but to me it's so totally obvious, and

I used the Tropical zodiac for 10 years. I specialize in the Tropical signs

because the traits fit the preceding sidereal signs so well in relation to

the ruling planets. Thank you, Tropical astrologers, for your many years of

observation!! You found our signs for us.

 

Therese

[Guest guest]

Therese wrote:

 

>>Though you have a gentle, even soft, appearance...

>

> No, a very masculine appearance, though considered handsome in the usual

> masculine way. As a child Gerald had the round lunar face, but this turned

> to rugged handsomeness in later years. He's not like Orlando Bloom, whose

> handsomeness is more feminine. Or Johnny Depp who can also look very

> feminine.

 

Sari:

 

Hello Therese and others,

 

these comments about a computer reading were very enlightning. Above is a

good example of how it really goes: sometimes the tropical traits of the

next sign fit perfectly to the previous sidereal sign, but not always. The

fact is that the tropical descriptions are such a confused mix of

traditional sign descriptions, elements, ruling planets, real life

observations etc. that one must pick wheat from husk by hand.

 

So I don't recommed applying tropical descriptions to the previous sidereal

signs straigh ahead, as we can see from these computer readings. Neither

tropical nor sidereal reading hits the mark. We Western siderealists should

do the painful work of making a fresh start and defining the sidereal signs

in modern terms using rulers, studying what the elements might mean on the

sidereal zodiac etc.

 

Therese wrote:

 

> He lives very much inside himself--which I might point out, is very

> Plutonian. (Siderealists place Pluto with Aries if it goes with any sign

> at

> all.) Gerald definitely does not adapt to other people, though he'll try

> to

> adapt to his wife's wishes. They work well together. (Gerald has 7th house

> lord, Venus, exactly sextile his Moon.)

>

>>>Often you are rather quiet, just listening and feeling.

>

> Nope, quiet and into his own thoughts. Once I asked him what he was

> thinking so quietly, and he said he was planning new inroads in his work.

> He did not even know who was in the room. If he's quiet, he's planning for

> his work. It was always like this.

 

Sari:

 

Because I've started to use less and less outer planets, I would put these

traits mainly to the Moon on the ascendant. The Moon is among other things

about the inner world, shutting down to one's environment, falling into

one's thoughts and in this case, because the Moon is in Aries, this inner

world is masculine and Martian by nature. As you pointed out, Mars is

written all over on this horoscope. Additionally, it's extremely strong in

shadbala points. And it' in close conjuction to the meticulous, technically

oriented Saturn (descripted by Gauquelin)! In theoretical, airy, masculine

Gemini ruled by Mercury!

 

Sorry to make a sissy post reading, but I think this was a very interesting

exercise. I think this is something we should discuss about - real charts

about people one of us knows.

 

Regards, Sari