Guest guest Posted September 2, 2007 Report Share Posted September 2, 2007 Have you heard about this? http://planetwavesweekly.com/dadatemp/1832374392.html This piece is from Eric Francis, a tropical astrologer, who attended NCGR conference last March. Robert Schmidt was lecturing there and he talked to Francis about Thema Mundi, the World Horoscope. I think there's several of them, but one of them has all the seven planets placed in the 16th degree in their own domiciles and Cancer is the first whole sign house. This is not a real horoscope but it was a teaching device in Hellenistic astrology. Basically the idea is the same than in modern " Astrological Alphabet " - Aries = 1st house = Mars; Taurus = 2nd house = Venus etc., that's been spreaded mainly I think through the Faculty school in London, because one of the founders of that school, Margaret Hone, was a strong advocator of that idea, but not its inventor, though. But now the 1st house is not Aries, but Cancer, the 2nd house is Leo, the 3rd is Virgo etc. I think this is sidereally an intriguing idea: 1st house - Cancer, most of it belonging to tropical Leo (me, me me!) 2nd house - Leo, most of it belonging to tropical Virgo (practicality, resources, available energy) 3rd house - Virgo, most of it belonging to tropical Libra (social relations, neighbours, siblings, communication, negotiation) 4th house - Libra, most of it belonging to tropical Scorpio (deep issues, past experiences, emotional imprints, mother) 5th house - Scorpio, most of it belonging to tropical Sagittarius (gambling, children, playing, having fun, sex) 6th house - Sagittarius, most of it belonging to tropical Capricorn (practicality, methods, rules) 7th house - Capricorn, most of it belongin to tropical Aquarius (I can't say anything to this except quote Chris Brennan in his fine artcile " Apocalyptical Beliefs in 20th Century Astrology " http://www.astrologicalconsultingservices.com/articles/essays/apocalyptic%20beli\ efs.html : ---- " [Nick] Campion points out that even the supposed nature of the sign Aquarius is essentially a fabrication, initially carried out by Alan Leo in order fit the ideal that had been created The supposed features of the Aquarian Age attributed to the sign Aquarius are therefore modern, and probably date back no earlier than the 1890's. Indeed they were probably adapted from existing millenarian thought. That is, the supposed psychological attributes of the modern sign were based neither on empirical observation nor ancient tradition but on Alan Leo's reasoning of what the ideal Aquarian ought to be like, based in his equation of the sign with the coming spiritual New Age. Even the significations of the planets Saturn and/or Uranus which are said to rule the sign of Aquarius are either sugarcoated, or ignored completely, along with other traditional notions of the sign of Aquarius such as it position in the 8th house of death in the mythical horoscope of the world the Thema Mundi. " ) ----- 8th house - Aquarius, most of it belonging to tropical Pisces (vulnerability, addictions) 9th house - Pisces, most of it belonging to tropical Aries (adventures, foreign countries) 10th house - Aries, most of belonging to tropical Taurus (luxury, high positions) 11th house - Taurus, most of it belonging to tropical Gemini (relations again, friends, hopes and dreams) 12th house - Gemini, most of it belonging to tropical Cancer (confinement, isolation, sensitivity, protecting oneself) Best, Sari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 3, 2007 Report Share Posted September 3, 2007 If he'd just get back to putting out his damn little books... As a Saturn-Pluto-ASC-Sun Schmidt doesn't exactly embrace the new. And likes hard seating in lecture halls too. Dark*Star ______________________________ Sari M wrote: > Have you heard about this? > > http://planetwavesweekly.com/dadatemp/1832374392.html > > This piece is from Eric Francis, a tropical astrologer, who attended > NCGR > conference last March. Robert Schmidt was lecturing there and he > talked to > Francis about Thema Mundi, the World Horoscope. I think there's > several of > them, but one of them has all the seven planets placed in the 16th > degree in > their own domiciles and Cancer is the first whole sign house. This is > not a > real horoscope but it was a teaching device in Hellenistic astrology. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 3, 2007 Report Share Posted September 3, 2007 At 05:28 PM 9/2/07 -0700, Dark*Star wrote: > >If he'd just get back to putting out his damn little books... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Schmidt is working on two big ones, but due to his ultra perfectionist nature, he keeps revising to infinity. Project Hindsight has had my $72 deposit since January. Sari, I'll comment on your message soon. It's the Labor Day holiday here in America, and I have house guests. Therese Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 2007 Report Share Posted September 4, 2007 A natural horoscope, equivalent to the Thema Mundi (or very close to it, depending on assumptions re ayanamsha value) could be found on or about 15 August 312 (JD=1835242 approx.) Probably this is the only instance in the past 2500 years... far rarer than " grand conjunctions " of all seven traditional planets, but it does occur in the real world. It would be interesting to see whether there are more spectacular recurrences of the " Thema Mundi " earlier than 500 BCE or when it might next recur. , " Sari M " <gerdapp wrote: > > Have you heard about this? > > http://planetwavesweekly.com/dadatemp/1832374392.html > > This piece is from Eric Francis, a tropical astrologer, who attended NCGR > conference last March. Robert Schmidt was lecturing there and he talked to > Francis about Thema Mundi, the World Horoscope. I think there's several of > them, but one of them has all the seven planets placed in the 16th degree in > their own domiciles and Cancer is the first whole sign house. This is not a > real horoscope but it was a teaching device in Hellenistic astrology. > > Basically the idea is the same than in modern " Astrological Alphabet " - > Aries = 1st house = Mars; Taurus = 2nd house = Venus etc., that's been > spreaded mainly I think through the Faculty school in London, because one of > the founders of that school, Margaret Hone, was a strong advocator of that > idea, but not its inventor, though. But now the 1st house is not Aries, but > Cancer, the 2nd house is Leo, the 3rd is Virgo etc. > > I think this is sidereally an intriguing idea: > > 1st house - Cancer, most of it belonging to tropical Leo (me, me me!) > 2nd house - Leo, most of it belonging to tropical Virgo (practicality, > resources, available energy) > 3rd house - Virgo, most of it belonging to tropical Libra (social relations, > neighbours, siblings, communication, negotiation) > 4th house - Libra, most of it belonging to tropical Scorpio (deep issues, > past experiences, emotional imprints, mother) > 5th house - Scorpio, most of it belonging to tropical Sagittarius (gambling, > children, playing, having fun, sex) > 6th house - Sagittarius, most of it belonging to tropical Capricorn > (practicality, methods, rules) > 7th house - Capricorn, most of it belongin to tropical Aquarius (I can't say > anything to this except quote Chris Brennan in his fine artcile > " Apocalyptical Beliefs in 20th Century Astrology " > http://www.astrologicalconsultingservices.com/articles/essays/ apocalyptic%20beliefs.html : > > -- -- > " [Nick] Campion points out that even the supposed nature of the sign > Aquarius is essentially a fabrication, initially carried out by Alan Leo in > order fit the ideal that had been created > > The supposed features of the Aquarian Age attributed to the sign Aquarius > are therefore modern, and probably date back no earlier than the 1890's. > Indeed they were probably adapted from existing millenarian thought. That > is, the supposed psychological attributes of the modern sign were based > neither on empirical observation nor ancient tradition but on Alan Leo's > reasoning of what the ideal Aquarian ought to be like, based in his equation > of the sign with the coming spiritual New Age. > > Even the significations of the planets Saturn and/or Uranus which are said > to rule the sign of Aquarius are either sugarcoated, or ignored completely, > along with other traditional notions of the sign of Aquarius such as it > position in the 8th house of death in the mythical horoscope of the world > the Thema Mundi. " ) > -- --- > 8th house - Aquarius, most of it belonging to tropical Pisces > (vulnerability, addictions) > 9th house - Pisces, most of it belonging to tropical Aries (adventures, > foreign countries) > 10th house - Aries, most of belonging to tropical Taurus (luxury, high > positions) > 11th house - Taurus, most of it belonging to tropical Gemini (relations > again, friends, hopes and dreams) > 12th house - Gemini, most of it belonging to tropical Cancer (confinement, > isolation, sensitivity, protecting oneself) > > Best, Sari > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 2007 Report Share Posted September 4, 2007 Julie wrote: >A natural horoscope, equivalent to the Thema Mundi (or very close to > it, depending on assumptions re ayanamsha value) could be found on or > about 15 August 312 (JD=1835242 approx.) Probably this is the only > instance in the past 2500 years... far rarer than " grand > conjunctions " of all seven traditional planets, but it does occur in > the real world. It would be interesting to see whether there are more > spectacular recurrences of the " Thema Mundi " earlier than 500 BCE or > when it might next recur. Sari: That's interesting. I think that Schmidt says this is not a real horoscope, but only a symbolic one, but why not search? The year 312 horosope might be a nominee; I made a search with Solar Fire from 3000BC to 0 AD with all the planets in their adequate signs with Lahiri ayanamsa, but found nothing. So it would seem that the 312 horoscope might be the best candidate so far... but probably it's not so much about finding the date, but about a symbolical idea... Best, Sari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 2007 Report Share Posted September 5, 2007 Dear Julie and Sari ! Great stuff! Do you know the origin of the " Thema Mundi " horoscope; could it be that it is based on this date or is it earlier? I'm asking this because of the accuracy of this concrete radix, I mean look at the aspects ! They're describing how astrology actually works! Note that this is a diurnal chart as opposed to the original " Thema Mundi " -chart, and that Capricorn is on the Asc. and the Moon and Cancer is on the Desc. A true discovery, Wonderful ! Yours, Peter Kecskés from Hungary --- Sari M <gerdapp wrote: > > Julie wrote: > > >A natural horoscope, equivalent to the Thema Mundi > (or very close to > > it, depending on assumptions re ayanamsha value) > could be found on or > > about 15 August 312 (JD=1835242 approx.) Probably > this is the only > > instance in the past 2500 years... far rarer than > " grand > > conjunctions " of all seven traditional planets, > but it does occur in > > the real world. It would be interesting to see > whether there are more > > spectacular recurrences of the " Thema Mundi " > earlier than 500 BCE or > > when it might next recur. > > Sari: > > That's interesting. I think that Schmidt says this > is not a real horoscope, > but only a symbolic one, but why not search? The > year 312 horosope might be > a nominee; I made a search with Solar Fire from > 3000BC to 0 AD with all the > planets in their adequate signs with Lahiri > ayanamsa, but found nothing. So > it would seem that the 312 horoscope might be the > best candidate so far... > but probably it's not so much about finding the > date, but about a symbolical > idea... > > Best, Sari > > ______________________________\ ____ Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Travel. http://travel./ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 7, 2007 Report Share Posted September 7, 2007 At 10:24 PM 9/3/07 -0000, Julia wrote: >A natural horoscope, equivalent to the Thema Mundi (or very close to >it, depending on assumptions re ayanamsha value) could be found on or >about 15 August 312 (JD=1835242 approx.) Probably this is the only >instance in the past 2500 years... far rarer than " grand >conjunctions " of all seven traditional planets, but it does occur in >the real world. It would be interesting to see whether there are more >spectacular recurrences of the " Thema Mundi " earlier than 500 BCE or >when it might next recur. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Very good, Julia! I ran the chart in Solar Fire, and according to that program around 10:30 a.m. in Alexandria, Egypt all the planets were in their own signs except...There's no way I can see that we can have the Moon in Cancer and Mars in Scorpio. Mars has just inched into Sagittarius by a few minutes, and the Moon has just gone into Cancer. (Sidereal-Krishnamurti) If we back up the time to get Mars in Scorpio, then the Moon goes back to Gemini. Perhaps the Moon calculations aren't exact for a time that far back. I don't know. The tropical and sidereal charts are very close with the Lahiri/Krishnamuti ayanamsas. Sari, I still have to reply to your post--soon, I hope. Therese Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 7, 2007 Report Share Posted September 7, 2007 At 01:44 PM 9/2/07 +0300, Sari wrote: >Have you heard about this? > >http://planetwavesweekly.com/dadatemp/1832374392.html > >This piece is from Eric Francis, a tropical astrologer, who attended NCGR >conference last March. Robert Schmidt was lecturing there and he talked to >Francis about Thema Mundi, the World Horoscope... > >Basically the idea is the same than in modern " Astrological Alphabet " - >Aries = 1st house = Mars; Taurus = 2nd house = Venus etc., that's been >spread mainly I think through the Faculty school in London, because one of >the founders of that school, Margaret Hone, was a strong advocator of that >idea, but not its inventor, though. But now the 1st house is not Aries, but >Cancer, the 2nd house is Leo, the 3rd is Virgo etc. > >I think this is sidereally an intriguing idea: > >1st house - Cancer, most of it belonging to tropical Leo (me, me me!) >2nd house - Leo, most of it belonging to tropical Virgo (practicali >resources, available energy)...(etc.) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Hi Sari, In order to keep this post short, I haven't copied your entire post, but anyone can check it out on the forum on September 2. The problem with the idea of symbolically reassigning signs to houses is that the houses and signs were never supposed to be synonomous. This is an idea that came about in modern times, popularized in the United States by Zip Dobyns' " Twelve Letter Alphabet. " But as Deborah Houlding points out in THE HOUSES: TEMPLES OF THE SKY, a sign is not a house and a house is not a sign. For example she says, " The notion that Taurus governs finance is a modern idea derived from the sign's identification with the 2nd house, not the other way around. " (pp xi, xii) So the first house traditionally ruled Life, Body, Spirit, Character, the station to which we are born. These have no particular relationship either to Aries (head, face) or to Cancer (Thema Mundi). It's only an accident of modern astrology that signs and houses have come to be considered as roughly identical. The meanings of houses have shifted a great deal from ancient times, the major shift happening when Alan Leo (1860-1917) began publishing Sun sign astrology. Instead of emphasizing the symbolism of the planets, he invented meanings for the Sun in signs of the zodiac. Eventually signs began to be associated with houses of the horoscope. Deborah Houlding's book is, in my opinion, a book that every astrologer should own and study. ($25 on Amazon) Then we have to go back and completely re-evaluate what the houses mean and how to use them astrologically. Therese Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 8, 2007 Report Share Posted September 8, 2007 Hi Therese, you wrote: > The problem with the idea of symbolically reassigning signs to houses is > that the houses and signs were never supposed to be synonomous. This is an > idea that came about in modern times, popularized in the United States by > Zip Dobyns' " Twelve Letter Alphabet. " But as Deborah Houlding points out > in > THE HOUSES: TEMPLES OF THE SKY, a sign is not a house and a house is not a > sign. For example she says, " The notion that Taurus governs finance is a > modern idea derived from the sign's identification with the 2nd house, not > the other way around. " (pp xi, xii) Sari: I printed the older version of Houlding's houses book when it was online, so I've read it a few times and I know that the usual " Twelve Letter Alphabet " is a swear-word among traditional astrologers. But now I'm wondering if you ever read the article by Francis. He paraphrases Schmidt there as follows: " The Hellenistic scholars who write about it refer to it as a teaching device, so it seems likely to be a hypothetical chart, that is, a construction rather than a chart for an event, but one with placements that have occurred many times in history. What Schmidt and Black have deduced from their research is that this seems to be a chart that is the foundation for the system of Hellenistic astrology, which in turn gave us the astrology we now have. In other words, rather than being a chart that was put together based on the rules of the Hellenistic system, it is the key to our astrology, something of an original document from which those rules were deduced. Of course, nobody can say for sure and the literature is not clear on this particular point. The chart exists and was used, and we now have access to it. Yesterday in a phone conversation, Schmidt likened his perception that the chart is the source of astrology rather than the other way around, to seeing a film of a cup breaking, played backwards. Imagine that's all you had, the reverse film. If you watched the film, you would need to speculate about all the possible forces that were pushing the various bits together to shape them in the form of the cup, then assume there was some way they were mysteriously sticking together. You might wonder what intelligence orchestrated the shards arranging themselves as a cup. If you start with a cup, watch it break, and then watch it come back together, it makes a lot more sense. On this logic, it makes sense to presume the Thema Mundi is a starting point rather than a destination or logical conclusion of the Hellenistic principles. " http://planetwavesweekly.com/dadatemp/1832374392.html Note how Schmidt says: " this seems to be a chart that is the foundation for the system of Hellenistic astrology, which in turn gave us the astrology we now have. " " Something of an original document from which those rules were deduced. " Which rules are they talking about? The original meanings of houses possibly? Schmidt thinks this is a very important symbolic chart, it has a meaning and we should learn something from it. What else could it be, if not about the symbolical relationship between the 1st house and Cancer? If you have any ideas, I would be happy to hear about them. Best, Sari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 8, 2007 Report Share Posted September 8, 2007 Hi Sari, Thanks for your reply. Yes, I did read the article by Francis, and I remember the quotes you put in your post. I'm glad you included the quotes so others can read what he said. Yes, I remember that Francis said that Schmidt said something about the Thema Mundi being the foundation of Hellenistic astrology. But until he elaborates on this, we don't know exactly what he meant. It may not refer to houses at all, but it probably does refer to the dual rulerships of the signs by planets and the order of the signs. Since signs and houses may/may not be the same, the Thema Mundi could refer to sign and ruler structure, but not to houses as such. We'll have to wait and see what Schmidt has to say since the article you quoted is already second hand from Schmidt. He's supposed to be finishing up two books that deal extensively with Hellenistic astrology. The first one is an overview, and the second one is the first in a series of books on Hellenistic authors for astrologers. One thing about the glyphs we now use for our sign symbols: There's no doubt that they were drawn to correlate with parts of the body: Aries=eyebrows and nose; Taurus=chin, throat; Gemini=shoulders and arms; Cancer=breast (and so on). These glyphs were probably rather late in the making. I'm sure they weren't used in Hellenistic times. Therese At 03:41 PM 9/8/07 +0300, you wrote: >I printed the older version of Houlding's houses book when it was online, so >I've read it a few times and I know that the usual " Twelve Letter Alphabet " >is a swear-word among traditional astrologers. But now I'm wondering if you >ever read the article by Francis. He paraphrases Schmidt there as follows: > > " The Hellenistic scholars who write about it refer to it as a teaching >device, so it seems likely to be a hypothetical chart, that is, a >construction rather than a chart for an event, but one with placements that >have occurred many times in history. What Schmidt and Black have deduced >from their research is that this seems to be a chart that is the foundation >for the system of Hellenistic astrology, which in turn gave us the astrology >we now have... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 8, 2007 Report Share Posted September 8, 2007 At 03:41 PM 9/8/07 +0300, Sari wrote: > >I printed the older version of Houlding's houses book [Temples of the Sky] when it was online, so I've read it a few times and I know that the usual " Twelve Letter Alphabet " >is a swear-word among traditional astrologers. Hi Sari, I believe the newly revised book printed in 2006 is much more extensive than what Deborah Houlding had on-line. I also had printed out material from her site, but it's incomplete compared to the book. But maybe she had added more sometime after I downloaded material from her site. The book is 168 pages. But you're right! The Twelve-Letter Alphabet is a swear word for traditional astrologers. Therese Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 9, 2007 Report Share Posted September 9, 2007 Yes, that's what I saw with the programs I used: at the point where the moon enters cancer, mars is a fraction of a degree into Sagittarius. One could rationalize that the first part of Sagittarius there, containing Shaula (Mula /lambda scorpii) continues the martian influence based on the navamsa ruler, but it's rather out on a limb. For what it's worth, I found reference to an ayanamsa value proposed by a Nepalese astronomer, Dr. Keshav Ram Joshi, which places Arcturus (Swati / alpha bootis) about three minutes into Libra. That assumption has the Sidereal and Tropical zodiacs matching in mid- August of 262, nearly fifty years to the day before the event on 15 August 312. With that ayanamsa value (or Fagan-Bradley, for that matter) then on the latter date, there is a span of time when all seven planets are in their own signs, around the time when the moon in cancer makes exact opposition to Saturn in Capricorn. The Keshav Ram Joshi ayanamsa for J2000.0 would be 24º10'35 " . I don't know what his basis was for determining that. Maybe the age of Pisces had a 50-year gestation period. You know me though --- I love to experiment with speculative ideas, in the case that something interesting might show itself. " Still looking around for my Mercury Dasa ... may have misplaced it " - Julia , therese hamilton <eastwest wrote: > > At 10:24 PM 9/3/07 -0000, Julia wrote: > >A natural horoscope, equivalent to the Thema Mundi (or very close to > >it, depending on assumptions re ayanamsha value) could be found on or > >about 15 August 312 (JD=1835242 approx.) Probably this is the only > >instance in the past 2500 years... far rarer than " grand > >conjunctions " of all seven traditional planets, but it does occur in > >the real world. It would be interesting to see whether there are more > >spectacular recurrences of the " Thema Mundi " earlier than 500 BCE or > >when it might next recur. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Very good, Julia! I ran the chart in Solar Fire, and according to that > program around 10:30 a.m. in Alexandria, Egypt all the planets were in > their own signs except...There's no way I can see that we can have the Moon > in Cancer and Mars in Scorpio. Mars has just inched into Sagittarius by a > few minutes, and the Moon has just gone into Cancer. > (Sidereal-Krishnamurti) If we back up the time to get Mars in Scorpio, then > the Moon goes back to Gemini. > > Perhaps the Moon calculations aren't exact for a time that far back. I > don't know. > > The tropical and sidereal charts are very close with the Lahiri/ Krishnamuti > ayanamsas. > > Sari, I still have to reply to your post--soon, I hope. > > Therese > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 9, 2007 Report Share Posted September 9, 2007 Hi Therese, you wrote: > We'll have to wait and see what Schmidt has to say since the article you > quoted is already second hand from Schmidt. He's supposed to be finishing > up two books that deal extensively with Hellenistic astrology. The first > one is an overview, and the second one is the first in a series of books > on > Hellenistic authors for astrologers. Sari: I'm waiting for them too. We'll be wiser then. You wrote: > > One thing about the glyphs we now use for our sign symbols: There's no > doubt that they were drawn to correlate with parts of the body: > Aries=eyebrows and nose; Taurus=chin, throat; Gemini=shoulders and arms; > Cancer=breast (and so on). These glyphs were probably rather late in the > making. I'm sure they weren't used in Hellenistic times. Sari: That's interesting, I didn't know that; but do you have a reference for this or have you found it by yourself? How about Aquarius and Pisces for example - how does the glyph for Aquarius correlate with ankles? You're right that Houlding's new edition is more comprehensive than the one that was online. I should purchase that sometime. Thanks for you response, best, Sari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 9, 2007 Report Share Posted September 9, 2007 At 08:56 AM 9/9/07 +0300, Sari wrote: >>[Therese] One thing about the glyphs we now use for our sign symbols: There's no >> doubt that they were drawn to correlate with parts of the body: >> Aries=eyebrows and nose; Taurus=chin, throat; Gemini=shoulders and arms; >> Cancer=breast (and so on). These glyphs were probably rather late in the >> making. I'm sure they weren't used in Hellenistic times. > >Sari: > >That's interesting, I didn't know that; but do you have a reference for this >or have you found it by yourself? I first read about the symbol correlation to parts of the body in the 60s or 70s in Ellen McCaffery's GRAPHIC ASTROLOGY. But Deborah Houlding says that the single sign to house correlation seems to be the houses with parts of the body for medical astrology. (This is a pattern for the natural signs aligned with the houses.) >[sari] How about Aquarius and Pisces for >example - how does the glyph for Aquarius correlate with ankles? Aquarius is the rise and fall of the ankles when the person is walking. Pisces is the two feet: when walking or running when one foot goes backward, the other goes forward like two fishes in the constellation of Pisces are pointed in different directions. Then that complicated glyph for Capricorn is a pictograph of the knees. >[sari] You're >right that Houlding's new edition is more comprehensive than the one that >was online. I should purchase that sometime. One interesting topic that she discusses that I don't remember seeing on her site is the correlation of some house meanings with the joys of the planets in houses. So she calls the 3rd (Moon)/9th (Sun) polarity the Queen and King, and then discusses how this concept can be expanded to house meanings. Therese Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 9, 2007 Report Share Posted September 9, 2007 At 01:22 AM 9/9/07 -0000, Julia wrote: >Yes, that's what I saw with the programs I used: at the point where >the moon enters cancer, mars is a fraction of a degree into >Sagittarius. One could rationalize that the first part of Sagittarius >there, containing Shaula (Mula /lambda scorpii) continues the martian >influence based on the navamsa ruler, but it's rather out on a limb. Actually, not so far out on a limb since back in Hellenisitc times when horoscopic astrology was born the sidereal zodiac was somewhat inexact. From Mesopotamia the beginnings of signs were measured from the stars, and these measurements weren't always exactly 30 degrees from each other. The Martian influence is definitely there. Anyway the Thema Mundi chart was supposed to be very, very old, probably long before our current measurements of the zodiac. >For what it's worth, I found reference to an ayanamsa value proposed >by a Nepalese astronomer, Dr. Keshav Ram Joshi, which places Arcturus >(Swati / alpha bootis) about three minutes into Libra. That >assumption has the Sidereal and Tropical zodiacs matching in mid- >August of 262, nearly fifty years to the day before the event on 15 >August 312. With that ayanamsa value (or Fagan-Bradley, for that >matter) then on the latter date, there is a span of time when all >seven planets are in their own signs, around the time when the moon >in cancer makes exact opposition to Saturn in Capricorn. With the different ayanamsa values you're unearthing, Julia, we're still in the ballpark for a 'true' sidereal zodiac within a relatively short span of years. I can't think of a better way to test the value than using the sign sub-divisions--the varga charts of India. > I love to >experiment with speculative ideas, in the case that something >interesting might show itself. " Still looking around for my Mercury >Dasa ... may have misplaced it " Well, this is Mercurial research you're doing right now--except that you were doing it before Mercury dasa began as well. Mercury's period is l-o-n-g. It might take a while for the dasa to settle in. Or the dasa might only bring specific events promised by individual solar returns. Looking back over my Mercury dasa, events transpired during that time period that hadn't happened before in my life--and hopefully won't happen again! But my over all life pattern remained about the same. The difference was in the type of periodic events within that period. Therese Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 17, 2007 Report Share Posted October 17, 2007 Hi Therese, I just stumbled across this topic: > At 10:24 PM 9/3/07 -0000, Julia wrote: > >A natural horoscope, equivalent to the Thema Mundi (or very close to > >it, depending on assumptions re ayanamsha value) could be found on or > >about 15 August 312 (JD=1835242 approx.) Probably this is the only > >instance in the past 2500 years... far rarer than " grand > >conjunctions " of all seven traditional planets, but it does occur in > >the real world. It would be interesting to see whether there are more > >spectacular recurrences of the " Thema Mundi " earlier than 500 BCE or > >when it might next recur. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ If the Galactic Center (0 Sag) ayanamsa is used (the one I use) one can get the following for Sun through Saturn in their signs. 17 Aug 312 AD Julian Calendar Time: 02:31:00 AM TZ: LMT Lat.: 31N12 Long: 029E54 Alexandria Delta T: 0 seconds ASC: 106°34'08 " 103°11'58 " MC: 003°41'15 " 000°19'05 " JDN: 1835244.521806 LST: 00h13m30.7799s RAMC: 003°22'41.6989 " JED: 1835244.521806 True Obliquity: 23°39'31.6796 " dpsi: 00°00'00.9103 " deps: 00°00'09.1816 " Eq.T.: -01m55.89s Geocentric Sidereal Apparent Coordinates of Date Ayanamsa: Galactic Center SVP: 26°37'49.91 " Ayan: -03°22'10.09 " Long.(degrees) Long.(zodiac) Latitude Sun 140°21'19.51 " 20Le21'19.51 " 00°00'00.08 " Moon 109°20'25.99 " 19Cn20'25.99 " 04°46'58.17 " Mercury 166°37'33.15 " 16Vi37'33.15 " -02°56'18.46 " Venus 180°00'02.79 " 00Li00'02.79 " -00°08'30.26 " Mars 238°00'46.55 " 28Sc00'46.55 " -02°55'53.11 " Jupiter 263°41'52.43 " R 23Sg41'52.43 " R -00°21'42.48 " Saturn 273°42'35.85 " R 03Cp42'35.85 " R -00°07'05.94 " Uranus 259°51'01.77 " R 19Sg51'01.77 " R -00°16'23.55 " Neptune 189°28'00.98 " 09Li28'00.98 " 01°51'42.98 " Pluto 305°25'14.19 " R 05Aq25'14.19 " R -11°54'05.29 " ASC 103°11'57.77 " 13Cn11'57.77 " 00°00'00.00 " MC 000°19'04.63 " 00Ar19'04.63 " 00°00'00.00 " True Node 356°26'56.50 " R 26Pi26'56.50 " R 00°00'00.00 " One can also jiggle the dates using DeLuce and get a similar result. Regards, Buz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 17, 2007 Report Share Posted October 17, 2007 Thanks for this, Buz. I hope Julia sees your post and will give you a reply. Therese At 03:27 PM 10/17/07 -0000, Buz Overbeck wrote: >...I just stumbled across this topic: > >> At 10:24 PM 9/3/07 -0000, Julia wrote: >> >A natural horoscope, equivalent to the Thema Mundi (or very close to >> >it, depending on assumptions re ayanamsha value) could be found on or >> >about 15 August 312 (JD=1835242 approx.) Probably this is the only >> >instance in the past 2500 years... far rarer than " grand >> >conjunctions " of all seven traditional planets, but it does occur in >> >the real world. It would be interesting to see whether there are more >> >spectacular recurrences of the " Thema Mundi " earlier than 500 BCE or >> >when it might next recur. >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >If the Galactic Center (0 Sag) ayanamsa is used (the one I use) one >can get the following for Sun through Saturn in their signs. > > 17 Aug 312 AD Julian Calendar > Time: 02:31:00 AM > TZ: LMT > Lat.: 31N12 > Long: 029E54 Alexandria > Delta T: 0 seconds > ASC: 106°34'08 " 103°11'58 " > MC: 003°41'15 " 000°19'05 " > > JDN: 1835244.521806 LST: 00h13m30.7799s RAMC: 003°22'41.6989 " > JED: 1835244.521806 True Obliquity: 23°39'31.6796 " > dpsi: 00°00'00.9103 " deps: 00°00'09.1816 " Eq.T.: -01m55.89s > > > > Geocentric Sidereal Apparent Coordinates of Date > Ayanamsa: Galactic Center > SVP: 26°37'49.91 " Ayan: -03°22'10.09 " > > Long.(degrees) Long.(zodiac) Latitude > Sun 140°21'19.51 " 20Le21'19.51 " 00°00'00.08 " > Moon 109°20'25.99 " 19Cn20'25.99 " 04°46'58.17 " > Mercury 166°37'33.15 " 16Vi37'33.15 " -02°56'18.46 " > Venus 180°00'02.79 " 00Li00'02.79 " -00°08'30.26 " > Mars 238°00'46.55 " 28Sc00'46.55 " -02°55'53.11 " > Jupiter 263°41'52.43 " R 23Sg41'52.43 " R -00°21'42.48 " > Saturn 273°42'35.85 " R 03Cp42'35.85 " R -00°07'05.94 " > Uranus 259°51'01.77 " R 19Sg51'01.77 " R -00°16'23.55 " > Neptune 189°28'00.98 " 09Li28'00.98 " 01°51'42.98 " > Pluto 305°25'14.19 " R 05Aq25'14.19 " R -11°54'05.29 " > ASC 103°11'57.77 " 13Cn11'57.77 " 00°00'00.00 " > MC 000°19'04.63 " 00Ar19'04.63 " 00°00'00.00 " > True Node 356°26'56.50 " R 26Pi26'56.50 " R 00°00'00.00 " > >One can also jiggle the dates using DeLuce and get a similar result. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 18, 2007 Report Share Posted October 18, 2007 Hi Buz and others, I think that is quite impressive. Best, Sari - " Buz Overbeck " <buz.overbeck Wednesday, October 17, 2007 6:27 PM Re: Thema Mundi Hi Therese, I just stumbled across this topic: > At 10:24 PM 9/3/07 -0000, Julia wrote: > >A natural horoscope, equivalent to the Thema Mundi (or very close to > >it, depending on assumptions re ayanamsha value) could be found on or > >about 15 August 312 (JD=1835242 approx.) Probably this is the only > >instance in the past 2500 years... far rarer than " grand > >conjunctions " of all seven traditional planets, but it does occur in > >the real world. It would be interesting to see whether there are more > >spectacular recurrences of the " Thema Mundi " earlier than 500 BCE or > >when it might next recur. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ If the Galactic Center (0 Sag) ayanamsa is used (the one I use) one can get the following for Sun through Saturn in their signs. 17 Aug 312 AD Julian Calendar Time: 02:31:00 AM TZ: LMT Lat.: 31N12 Long: 029E54 Alexandria Delta T: 0 seconds ASC: 106°34'08 " 103°11'58 " MC: 003°41'15 " 000°19'05 " JDN: 1835244.521806 LST: 00h13m30.7799s RAMC: 003°22'41.6989 " JED: 1835244.521806 True Obliquity: 23°39'31.6796 " dpsi: 00°00'00.9103 " deps: 00°00'09.1816 " Eq.T.: -01m55.89s Geocentric Sidereal Apparent Coordinates of Date Ayanamsa: Galactic Center SVP: 26°37'49.91 " Ayan: -03°22'10.09 " Long.(degrees) Long.(zodiac) Latitude Sun 140°21'19.51 " 20Le21'19.51 " 00°00'00.08 " Moon 109°20'25.99 " 19Cn20'25.99 " 04°46'58.17 " Mercury 166°37'33.15 " 16Vi37'33.15 " -02°56'18.46 " Venus 180°00'02.79 " 00Li00'02.79 " -00°08'30.26 " Mars 238°00'46.55 " 28Sc00'46.55 " -02°55'53.11 " Jupiter 263°41'52.43 " R 23Sg41'52.43 " R -00°21'42.48 " Saturn 273°42'35.85 " R 03Cp42'35.85 " R -00°07'05.94 " Uranus 259°51'01.77 " R 19Sg51'01.77 " R -00°16'23.55 " Neptune 189°28'00.98 " 09Li28'00.98 " 01°51'42.98 " Pluto 305°25'14.19 " R 05Aq25'14.19 " R -11°54'05.29 " ASC 103°11'57.77 " 13Cn11'57.77 " 00°00'00.00 " MC 000°19'04.63 " 00Ar19'04.63 " 00°00'00.00 " True Node 356°26'56.50 " R 26Pi26'56.50 " R 00°00'00.00 " One can also jiggle the dates using DeLuce and get a similar result. Regards, Buz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2007 Report Share Posted November 22, 2007 Hi Buz, Cool name. I guess I am still on the Astrology board and getting emails from it. Are you a Vedic Astrologer? Are you into stock market Astrology at all? Or investment Astrology? I had just learned about Vedic Astrology (at the end of my very very painful Ketu Dasa). I look at people completely differently now. When they seem stuck or doing something good or bad that seems totally unlike something from before - I always wonder which Dasa they are experiencing. I guess we live in some pretty interesting times! Happy Thanksgiving (if you are in the States) otherwise - have a great day. Kate Buz Overbeck <buz.overbeck wrote: Hi Therese, I just stumbled across this topic: > At 10:24 PM 9/3/07 -0000, Julia wrote: > >A natural horoscope, equivalent to the Thema Mundi (or very close to > >it, depending on assumptions re ayanamsha value) could be found on or > >about 15 August 312 (JD=1835242 approx.) Probably this is the only > >instance in the past 2500 years... far rarer than " grand > >conjunctions " of all seven traditional planets, but it does occur in > >the real world. It would be interesting to see whether there are more > >spectacular recurrences of the " Thema Mundi " earlier than 500 BCE or > >when it might next recur. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ If the Galactic Center (0 Sag) ayanamsa is used (the one I use) one can get the following for Sun through Saturn in their signs. 17 Aug 312 AD Julian Calendar Time: 02:31:00 AM TZ: LMT Lat.: 31N12 Long: 029E54 Alexandria Delta T: 0 seconds ASC: 106°34'08 " 103°11'58 " MC: 003°41'15 " 000°19'05 " JDN: 1835244.521806 LST: 00h13m30.7799s RAMC: 003°22'41.6989 " JED: 1835244.521806 True Obliquity: 23°39'31.6796 " dpsi: 00°00'00.9103 " deps: 00°00'09.1816 " Eq.T.: -01m55.89s Geocentric Sidereal Apparent Coordinates of Date Ayanamsa: Galactic Center SVP: 26°37'49.91 " Ayan: -03°22'10.09 " Long.(degrees) Long.(zodiac) Latitude Sun 140°21'19.51 " 20Le21'19.51 " 00°00'00.08 " Moon 109°20'25.99 " 19Cn20'25.99 " 04°46'58.17 " Mercury 166°37'33.15 " 16Vi37'33.15 " -02°56'18.46 " Venus 180°00'02.79 " 00Li00'02.79 " -00°08'30.26 " Mars 238°00'46.55 " 28Sc00'46.55 " -02°55'53.11 " Jupiter 263°41'52.43 " R 23Sg41'52.43 " R -00°21'42.48 " Saturn 273°42'35.85 " R 03Cp42'35.85 " R -00°07'05.94 " Uranus 259°51'01.77 " R 19Sg51'01.77 " R -00°16'23.55 " Neptune 189°28'00.98 " 09Li28'00.98 " 01°51'42.98 " Pluto 305°25'14.19 " R 05Aq25'14.19 " R -11°54'05.29 " ASC 103°11'57.77 " 13Cn11'57.77 " 00°00'00.00 " MC 000°19'04.63 " 00Ar19'04.63 " 00°00'00.00 " True Node 356°26'56.50 " R 26Pi26'56.50 " R 00°00'00.00 " One can also jiggle the dates using DeLuce and get a similar result. Regards, Buz Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Mail. See how. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2007 Report Share Posted November 23, 2007 , kate mccrew <kate_mccrew wrote: Hi Kate, nice to hear from you. I'm not officially a " vedic astrologer " although I've been working with it for a couple of years now. I'm finding the Dasa (vimshottari) system very helpful when trying to analyze periods that don't fall neatly within the Solar/Lunar time frame (yearly or monthly cycles). I haven't worked with financial astrology but there are a few out there that seem to have good success with it. Arch Crawford is very well known on Wall Street and has a great record of pinpointing market movements. I believe he also has a astro/financial newsletter that's available. Google him for more information and, if you find something that works, please let me know! I am in the US so thanks for the holiday wishes. I'll send the same back to you and your family. Best, Buz > > Hi Buz, > > Cool name. I guess I am still on the Astrology board and getting emails from it. Are you a Vedic Astrologer? Are you into stock market Astrology at all? Or investment Astrology? > > I had just learned about Vedic Astrology (at the end of my very very painful Ketu Dasa). I look at people completely differently now. When they seem stuck or doing something good or bad that seems totally unlike something from before - I always wonder which Dasa they are experiencing. > > I guess we live in some pretty interesting times! > > Happy Thanksgiving (if you are in the States) otherwise - have a great day. > > Kate > > Buz Overbeck <buz.overbeck wrote: Hi Therese, I just stumbled across this topic: > > > At 10:24 PM 9/3/07 -0000, Julia wrote: > > >A natural horoscope, equivalent to the Thema Mundi (or very close to > > >it, depending on assumptions re ayanamsha value) could be found on or > > >about 15 August 312 (JD=1835242 approx.) Probably this is the only > > >instance in the past 2500 years... far rarer than " grand > > >conjunctions " of all seven traditional planets, but it does occur in > > >the real world. It would be interesting to see whether there are more > > >spectacular recurrences of the " Thema Mundi " earlier than 500 BCE or > > >when it might next recur. > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > If the Galactic Center (0 Sag) ayanamsa is used (the one I use) one > can get the following for Sun through Saturn in their signs. > > 17 Aug 312 AD Julian Calendar > Time: 02:31:00 AM > TZ: LMT > Lat.: 31N12 > Long: 029E54 Alexandria > Delta T: 0 seconds > ASC: 106°34'08 " 103°11'58 " > MC: 003°41'15 " 000°19'05 " > > JDN: 1835244.521806 LST: 00h13m30.7799s RAMC: 003°22'41.6989 " > JED: 1835244.521806 True Obliquity: 23°39'31.6796 " > dpsi: 00°00'00.9103 " deps: 00°00'09.1816 " Eq.T.: -01m55.89s > > Geocentric Sidereal Apparent Coordinates of Date > Ayanamsa: Galactic Center > SVP: 26°37'49.91 " Ayan: -03°22'10.09 " > > Long.(degrees) Long.(zodiac) Latitude > Sun 140°21'19.51 " 20Le21'19.51 " 00°00'00.08 " > Moon 109°20'25.99 " 19Cn20'25.99 " 04°46'58.17 " > Mercury 166°37'33.15 " 16Vi37'33.15 " -02°56'18.46 " > Venus 180°00'02.79 " 00Li00'02.79 " -00°08'30.26 " > Mars 238°00'46.55 " 28Sc00'46.55 " -02°55'53.11 " > Jupiter 263°41'52.43 " R 23Sg41'52.43 " R -00°21'42.48 " > Saturn 273°42'35.85 " R 03Cp42'35.85 " R -00°07'05.94 " > Uranus 259°51'01.77 " R 19Sg51'01.77 " R -00°16'23.55 " > Neptune 189°28'00.98 " 09Li28'00.98 " 01°51'42.98 " > Pluto 305°25'14.19 " R 05Aq25'14.19 " R -11°54'05.29 " > ASC 103°11'57.77 " 13Cn11'57.77 " 00°00'00.00 " > MC 000°19'04.63 " 00Ar19'04.63 " 00°00'00.00 " > True Node 356°26'56.50 " R 26Pi26'56.50 " R 00°00'00.00 " > > One can also jiggle the dates using DeLuce and get a similar result. > > Regards, > > Buz > Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Mail. See how. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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