Guest guest Posted February 25, 2008 Report Share Posted February 25, 2008 At 12:29 PM 2/25/08 -0500, Chris wrote: >I would look at 6th for enemies/opponents. 7th is for partners although >I realize many astrologers read the 7th this way. I agree that the a.m >chart gets a boost from this reading of powerful husband from the 7th. Hi Chris, I just checked out your site. It's very informative and nicely done. Thanks. Haven't gone to the whole site yet as I don't have much time until later today. About the 7th and opponents--I'm not dogmatic about that, and am mainly following what others have said. But Hitler had all those planets in the 7th, and he certainly emphasized 'opponents.' >I guess we choose to see the Moon differently. Moon is strong in my >books because it sits on the 5th equal house cusp. I completely agree with that since I consider equal cusps very important--always have since the 70s. Yes, Moon is strong in position, but weak in zodiacal placement. A mixture. But since the Moon isn't on a lunar mansion cusp, perhaps the zodical weakness doesn't matter so much. >Right [Hillary's 2008 Solar Return] seems less than inspired. > >Although the 8.00 am chart makes more sense to me, I also like to make >allowances for this birth time uncertainty by focusing more upon more >day-specific chart factors. Same goes for Obama since his time isn't >certain either. So while I think a competent astrologer should be able >to decide which chart is correct, I also think that competent >astrologers should be able to predict winners without knowing the birth >time. This I disagree with since I place maximum emphasis on house lords. But kudos to those who try to predict without knowing the ascendant. >It's harder to do, but I think a lot of what works in astrology >is probably quite basic in terms of planets' natural significations... This is another area of disagreement since in Jyotish the ascendant and house lords are all important. Modern tropical astrology definitely emphasizes natural significations whereas Jyotish and Morin emphasize the relationship of houses to the ascendant. My question is, " Does modern tropical astrology emphasize natural significators because house lords and dispositors no longer work, since they were born in the sidereal zodiac? " > Transits and progressions and return >charts all provide clues about what the likely outcome will be even if >the birth time is unknown. In my experience return charts provide facts rather than clues. They can't be calculated without a correct birth hour. I can't speak for progressions since I don't use them. >Hillary has that P3 Venus station she's >riding right now. It's opposite Pluto admittedly (not good) but trine >Neptune (very good). But with the 8:02 a.m. chart Neptune is the 6th lord and in the 12th. So I wonder how that station could be good. I believe I remember, however (don't have time to check) that Richard Houck linked stationary P3s to political victory. >That's overall a good pattern and should confer >favour to her in my view. I also note that Bill Clinton had the exact >same configuration in his P4 chart in January 1992 when he was gearing >up for the primaries. These stations may last several months or rather >they become effective within a 3-5 month window depending on other chart >factors. Obama has a P4 Mars station in March (how appropriate!). >Generally this is a negative indicator by virtue of Mars' natural >significations. It could become positive if it were involved in some >larger planetary pattern with soft angles and benefics but as far as I >can see, it isn't. That's another clue that Obama is heading for tough >times. >>[Therese] Neptune has a dissolving influence in political affairs. >[Chris] You're probably right about Neptune here but it may represent events >that arise after she wins. Just look at the next inauguration chart. >The solar return is in effect until Oct 09. I think Uranus to her 8.00 >a.m. Moon is a hugely energizing influence that is largely positive >given her situation. I will look at this later today in light of the solar return and add comments. >Agree that the TOB issues means that astrologers won't have to worry >about their mistakes (do they ever though?) Still, I think it will be >a cop-out since we should be able to know outcomes of people born on >different days even without known birth times. I believe this is more a western view than a Jyotish view because of the emphasis in Jyotish on the ascendant and house lords. I absolutely don't attempt predictions without a birth time. So for the time being I'm going with the AM chart for Hillary and the 1:06 PM chart for Obama. Thanks for the discussion--will get back to the Uranus-Moon later. Therese Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 25, 2008 Report Share Posted February 25, 2008 Hi Therese Therese Hamilton wrote: > > At 12:29 PM 2/25/08 -0500, Chris wrote: > > >I would look at 6th for enemies/opponents. 7th is for partners although > >I realize many astrologers read the 7th this way. I agree that the a.m > >chart gets a boost from this reading of powerful husband from the 7th. > > Hi Chris, > > I just checked out your site. It's very informative and nicely done. > Thanks. Haven't gone to the whole site yet as I don't have much time until > later today. > Thanks. > > About the 7th and opponents--I'm not dogmatic about that, and am mainly > following what others have said. But Hitler had all those planets in the > 7th, and he certainly emphasized 'opponents.' > > >I guess we choose to see the Moon differently. Moon is strong in my > >books because it sits on the 5th equal house cusp. > > I completely agree with that since I consider equal cusps very > important--always have since the 70s. Yes, Moon is strong in position, but > weak in zodiacal placement. A mixture. But since the Moon isn't on a lunar > mansion cusp, perhaps the zodical weakness doesn't matter so much. > Could be. I guess I don't put that much value on where a planet falls in a sign. > >Right [Hillary's 2008 Solar Return] seems less than inspired. > > > >Although the 8.00 am chart makes more sense to me, I also like to make > >allowances for this birth time uncertainty by focusing more upon more > >day-specific chart factors. Same goes for Obama since his time isn't > >certain either. So while I think a competent astrologer should be able > >to decide which chart is correct, I also think that competent > >astrologers should be able to predict winners without knowing the birth > >time. > > This I disagree with since I place maximum emphasis on house lords. But > kudos to those who try to predict without knowing the ascendant. > > > >It's harder to do, but I think a lot of what works in astrology > >is probably quite basic in terms of planets' natural significations... > > This is another area of disagreement since in Jyotish the ascendant and > house lords are all important. Modern tropical astrology definitely > emphasizes natural significations whereas Jyotish and Morin emphasize the > relationship of houses to the ascendant. My question is, " Does modern > tropical astrology emphasize natural significators because house lords and > dispositors no longer work, since they were born in the sidereal zodiac? " > Yes, it likely is a more western view. When Indian astrologers don't know the TOB, they will likely cast a prasna chart in order to work with one. Also, the Moon and Sun as 1st house is another way of simulating the lordships. If we're being really skeptical about birth times, then we can't use Hillary's Moon as lagna. The Sun would have to suffice. > > > Transits and progressions and return > >charts all provide clues about what the likely outcome will be even if > >the birth time is unknown. > > In my experience return charts provide facts rather than clues. They can't > be calculated without a correct birth hour. I can't speak for progressions > since I don't use them. > To me, clues are facts, but just ones that are probabilistic. Just as we can't put our trust in a single transit to explain an outcome. I often use solar return charts without a birth time. > >Hillary has that P3 Venus station she's > >riding right now. It's opposite Pluto admittedly (not good) but trine > >Neptune (very good). > > But with the 8:02 a.m. chart Neptune is the 6th lord and in the 12th. So I > wonder how that station could be good. I believe I remember, however > (don't > have time to check) that Richard Houck linked stationary P3s to political > victory. > Because it's a favourable/soft aspect. I don't think rulerships count for much here. To make matters really interesting, Hillary has a P3 Neptune station in Oct. Generally, this isn't a good thing but it will be trine the Venus which to me is a boost. Still there's an ambivalence there by virtue of Neptune's natural quality. Yes, Houck saw that progressed stations were useful clues to seeing political victory. Pluto and Jupiter were the best, but how they were arranged in the chart also mattered. A Saturn station can usually spell loss or defeat but in a soft aspect with another planet it gives strength. > > >That's overall a good pattern and should confer > >favour to her in my view. I also note that Bill Clinton had the exact > >same configuration in his P4 chart in January 1992 when he was gearing > >up for the primaries. These stations may last several months or rather > >they become effective within a 3-5 month window depending on other chart > >factors. Obama has a P4 Mars station in March (how appropriate!). > >Generally this is a negative indicator by virtue of Mars' natural > >significations. It could become positive if it were involved in some > >larger planetary pattern with soft angles and benefics but as far as I > >can see, it isn't. That's another clue that Obama is heading for tough > >times. > > >>[Therese] Neptune has a dissolving influence in political affairs. > > >[Chris] You're probably right about Neptune here but it may represent > events > >that arise after she wins. Just look at the next inauguration chart. > >The solar return is in effect until Oct 09. I think Uranus to her 8.00 > >a.m. Moon is a hugely energizing influence that is largely positive > >given her situation. > > I will look at this later today in light of the solar return and add > comments. > > >Agree that the TOB issues means that astrologers won't have to worry > >about their mistakes (do they ever though?) Still, I think it will be > >a cop-out since we should be able to know outcomes of people born on > >different days even without known birth times. > > I believe this is more a western view than a Jyotish view because of the > emphasis in Jyotish on the ascendant and house lords. I absolutely don't > attempt predictions without a birth time. So for the time being I'm going > with the AM chart for Hillary and the 1:06 PM chart for Obama. > OK. It's fun to work without birth times. Give it a try. A bit like being stranded out in the wilderness with just a pack of matches. You have learn how to live by your wits alone. Chris > > Thanks for the discussion--will get back to the Uranus-Moon later. > > Therese > > > ------ > > > > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.1/1297 - Release 2/25/08 9:22 AM > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 26, 2008 Report Share Posted February 26, 2008 At 12:29 PM 2/25/08 -0500, Chris wrote: >Obama has a P4 Mars station in March (how appropriate!). Chris, do you mean P3...or am I missing a P4 shortcut that I don't know about since I don't use progressions? >Generally this is a negative indicator by virtue of Mars' natural >significations. It could become positive if it were involved in some >larger planetary pattern with soft angles and benefics but as far as I >can see, it isn't. That's another clue that Obama is heading for tough >times. In his present solar return, natal Moon is at the zenith and receives a close conjuction from SR Mars. The Part of Fortune is also up there at the zenith/MC. (They're in the same degree.) Thus far, this strong Mars hasn't hurt him, but then it's the 9th lord in the solar return. (...as the discussion goes on without a verified birth time!) >... Just look at the next inauguration chart. >The solar return is in effect until Oct 09. I think Uranus to her 8.00 >a.m. Moon is a hugely energizing influence that is largely positive >given her situation. I have the inauguration chart. Do you mean that you are emphasizing the Venus-Uranus conjunction opposite Saturn in the inauguration chart and relating it to Hillary's Moon being transited by Uranus? Saturn is massively important in the inaugural chart because it disposits the 10th house stellium. And of course, this does tie in with Hillary's Moon. In Obama's SR, Mars, the ascendant lord, is in the degree of that Saturn in Leo. His SR Moon is opposite the inaugural Moon. Regarding Hillary's Moon, in a case where the Moon is so important, I look at the fixed stars. Her A.M. Moon is conjunct two stars in Pegasus, Markab (alpha) and Sadalbari (mu). Pegasus is linked to the legend of Perseus and Bellerophon, and is associated with either the ability to rise above difficulties or the danger of overreaching oneself. (Bhellerophon did not reach Olympus.) >>[Therese] But with the 8:02 a.m. chart Neptune is the 6th lord and in the 12th. So I >> wonder how that station could be good. > >[Chris] Because it's a favourable/soft aspect. I don't think rulerships count >for much here. To make matters really interesting, Hillary has a P3 >Neptune station in Oct. Generally, this isn't a good thing but it will >be trine the Venus which to me is a boost. Still there's an >ambivalence there by virtue of Neptune's natural quality...A Saturn station can usually spell loss or defeat but in a soft aspect with another planet it gives strength. So you're giving aspect type priority over house rulerships which I consider to be more important. This is a western view as opposed to a Jyotish view. >...It's fun to work without birth times. Give it a try. A bit like >being stranded out in the wilderness with just a pack of matches. You >have to learn how to live by your wits alone. Not fun for me, I'm afraid. I'm hoplessly wedded to the importance of the ascendant and ascendant lord plus the equal house cusps. I'm into math rather than living by one's wits. Mostly I don't have time to try to survive in the wilderness--I mean why be stranded when you can have the security of the ascendant? No ascendant? Then it's up to those who love the wilderness. But what is interesting is that we'll be able to test these theories in the coming months. Let's see what works out--natural significators or rulerships in questonable birth charts. Whoever is chosen does need a VP running mate... Therese Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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