sun square moon / sideral humours

[Guest guest]

Felicia wrote:

 

> No matter tropical or sidereal and regardless of the signs or houses for

> that matter, I have a Sun and Mars that square my Moon.

>

> From my own experience, and with my learning from evolutionary astrology,

> this means that just by being myself and taking the actions that feel

> fitting for me will inevitably go against my happiness and desired

> outcomes.

>

> From the tropical side, Sun and Mars in Aries means I am supposed to be

> assertive, brass, bold, maybe courageous :-) but that would make my Cancer

> moon feel insecure and unhappy.

 

Sari:

 

It would mean that your soul, that is the Sun in Pisces, a passionate,

emotional, dramatic, optimistic and idealistic soul; and your mind and

needs, the Moon in Gemini, are in conflict. Your soul would want full and

powerful self-expression, but that makes your sensitive Gemini Moon to feel

insecure, to fear that others would not like you. So the interpretation

doesn't differ from tropical (Aries/Cancer) very much. Patrice gave a very

good description of a Gemini Moon when he wrote about sensitivity and the

ability to listen others.

 

Therese wrote:

 

Sari, this is tropoical, through and through! The sangune, warm, moist etc.

categories belong only to the tropical system. They were never used

sidereally as far as I know. Sidereal signs aren't fire, earth, air and

water. Ptolemy gave the signs hot, cold, wet and dry categories when the

zodiac was still sidereal, and these don't have the same meanings as the

elements.

 

Sari:

 

We cannot be so sure about that (and we probably shouldn't base anything on

Ptolemy, the father of tropical astrology). The origin on the definions of

the elements (water is wet and cold, air is wet and hot etc.) come from

Aristotle in 4th century BC, as you can see in Greenbaum's " Temperament,

Astrology's Forgotten Key " , page 11. Then Greenbaum tells us, how Vettius

Valens from the 2nd century was the first astrologer who assigned elements

to the triplicities (Greenbaum, page 21). Antiochus of Athens, also from the

2nd century, as well assigns elements to the triplicities. And finally Abu

Mashar (787-866) has the whole system defined with elements, their qualities

and triplicities (page 24).

 

Now the question is: were these early astrologers tropicalists? When you say

that the traditional humours connected to the four elements is thoroughly

tropical astrology, you're basically saying that it's the tropical zodiac

that is fixed and unchanging, and the sidereal is the moving one where

definitions change with time - and that's probably something that none of us

on this list would accept. Vettius Valens defined his zodiac according to

fixed stars, as we can see from Anthology, translated and published by

Project Hindsight, and what's more interesting, many of his sign

descriptions sound a bit odd to an average modern tropical astrologer:

Geminis who are effeminate, capable in household matters and ones who

receive trust; Cancers who are public, popular, theatrical and fond of

repute and who end up sojourning abroad; Pisces that is full of eruptions,

rough, restless, sociable, erotic and licentious. It really sounds like

Valens is talking about sidereal signs, not tropical.

 

I mentioned Abu Mashar, and he writes about Virgo:

" As for Venus, it humiliates itself in Virgo, but it agrees with this sign

owing to the feminine nature and besides almost everybody knows that Virgo

means dancing, singing harmonies, lyres and other musical instruments and

the search for marriage, all the things which are typical of Venus. "

http://www.cieloeterra.it/eng/eng.testi.metafore/eng.metafore.html

 

Dancing, harmonies singing, lyre playing and marraige seeking Virgo -

remember that this is from an astrologer who said that earth is a cold and

dry and melancholic element, and air is hot and moist and sanguine!

 

Best, Sari

[Guest guest]

Hi Sari,

 

For you, the ask of tropicalism origin :

 

http://astrologie.eklablog.com/article-18032-91616-pourquoi-les-signes-du-zodiaq\

ue-ne-correspondent-ils-plus-aux-constel.html

 

Abu Yahia Al Batriq is the inventor of tropical astrology in 772,

nether Ptolemy... Tropicalism is an islamic astrology... Sidereal is a

scientific astrology.

[Guest guest]

At 02:08 PM 3/20/08 -0000, Patrice wrote:

>Hi Sari,

>

>For you, the ask of tropicalism origin :

>

>http://astrologie.eklablog.com/article-18032-91616-pourquoi-les-signes-du-z

odiaque-ne-correspondent-ils-plus-aux-constel.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

Patrice, all well and good for these links, but we cannot read French!!

 

Therese