Traditional astrology in Europe

[Guest guest]

Hi Shiv,

 

you wrote:

 

But seems like you are pretty deep into Jyotish. I take it that you use

Jyotish as your primary technique and not tropical techniques applied on a

sidereal zodiac.

>

> May I ask how long you been doing this.

 

Sari:

 

I'm actually not so deep in Jyotish than I'm in Arabic/medieval astrology

done sidereally. When talking about sidereal astrology, nothing has made the

pieces to fall into their places for me personally than the revelation that

at least some of the Arabs were using sidereal tables and making their

conclusions according to sidereal charts so, that it might not be

" forbidden " after all to use medieval astrology (which I love most) on the

sidereal zodiac (which I love as well). I know one astrologer in Sweden,

Sanskrit specialist Martin Gansten, who thinks in the same way, we've been

in correspondence. There's two astrologers in Finland besides me who are

interested in traditional/medieval astrology, but they're both tropicalists.

Still they're both my friends.

 

Shiv wrote:

 

Looks like sidereal astro is on the rise in US. But Europe for some

unexplainable reasons seems to be getting more people practicing Jyotish.

Maybe its because there were some cultural exchanges between Europe and

India in middle and earlier ages. There was Prof. Max Muller. and a strong

German connection. I have heard at least till some years back there was a

Sanskrit news Bulletin broadcast there on radio for one. Apparently there

are many Germans doing research on Sanskrit too. I see sites sprouting

suddenly in many European languages. But the European folks seem to be doing

pure Jyotish unlike the many in US who do western sidereal/jyotish combo.

Wonder why that is.

 

Sari:

 

This is an interesting subject and I hope I can put my thoughts in words.

From my perspective (which is limited), the US is definitely the center of

Western jyotish. But American jyotish has got a lot of influence from modern

tropical astrology, they have often adopted the sign interpretations right

from modern tropical books etc. That's not a good thing, IMO. In Europe

there's interest in traditional Western astrology, and a noteworthy thing is

that especially people in Eastern European countries seem to be interested

in traditional techinques, both Indian and Western.

 

You mentioned the cultural exhanges between Europe in India - I've thought

about this from a cultural/religious perspective. I belong to the Greek

Catholic minority in Finland because my father's family is from Carelia, the

part of Eastern Finland that's belonged more or less to Russia for much of

history. I'm not very religious, but that upbringing and certain

" ancestorial imprinting " has still left an impact on me. Most of the people

here in Finland are protestants.

 

When I started to study jyotish, I noticed that in some regards Orthodox

christianity is closer to Hinduism than Protestantism! Protestantism is

" modern " way of thinking, these Eastern philosophies (be it Eastern

Christianity or Eastern Hinduism) are clearly more traditional and

unchanging, and they both admit a certain mysterical world view. You don't

need to explain everything with science. Though not all the people in West

are protestants (far from that!), there's certain cultural influence that is

in some regards unavoidable. So, is it only coincidence that traditional

astrology is especially strong in Serbia, which is predominantly an Orthodox

country? Also in Russia there is a lot of interest in jyotish, and K.N. Rao

has praised his visits there, how spiritual the people are etc.

 

The New Age beliefs have not got such a strong foothold in Europe than in

the US. Of course we have New Age (it seems that for some reason that genre

especially strong in Denmark), but it's not such a big business than there.

Maybe we are a bit more " fatalistic " and so in general the doomful

traditional interpretations don't scare us so easily.

 

These are just my personal thoughts and they may be biased.

 

Best, Sari

[Guest guest]

Hi Therese,

 

you wrote:

 

Eventually I think we'll end up with one comprehensive astrology whose

building blocks come from varying systems. Let's hope that one astrology is

sidereal.

 

Sari:

 

That's my heartfelt hope too.

 

Best, Sari

[Guest guest]

At 10:55 AM 3/22/08 +0200, Sari wrote:

>

>I'm actually not so deep in Jyotish than I'm in Arabic/medieval astrology

>done sidereally. When talking about sidereal astrology, nothing has made the

>pieces to fall into their places for me personally than the revelation that

>at least some of the Arabs were using sidereal tables and making their

>conclusions according to sidereal charts...

 

Sari,

 

Another book I have (photocopy) that is strictly sidereal is THE

ASTROLOGICAL HISTORY OF MESHA'ALLAH (translated by Kennedy and Pingree).

This book deals with the great Jupiter-Saturn conjunctions through history.

Mesha'Allah was born in 572 CE.

 

Your post replying to Shiv about astrology/culture in Europe was very

interesting. The 'when' of tropical/sidereal astrology through history

becomes more and more of an adventure.

 

It's true that here in America Jyotish is becoming very mixed with western

concepts which I don't think is a good thing. This is happening because

most western Jyotish astrologers began their studies and practice as

tropical astrologers. It would be all right if this astrology had a new

name, but I don't think it should be called Jyotish or Vedic. Eventually I

think we'll end up with one comprehensive astrology whose building blocks

come from varying systems. Let's hope that one astrology is sidereal.

 

Thanks,

Therese

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the wonderful insights Sari.

Yes the more well known side of Hinduism surely resembles catholicism

in terms of ceremonies, practices etc. Although there is this not so

well known side that relates to Vedanta. But then by its very

intrinsic beliefs Vedanta becomes non sectarian and

universal,therefore it can't be called Hindu to begin with. But it

certainly had been developed in India. Vivekananda had made it more

well known in his visits to US and Europe a century ago.

 

It was interesting to note about European's relatively better

acceptance of 'fatalism'. I had never thought of that before. That

connection between Russia and India: that's something to think about.

I had met some Russians once they were very much into Bollywood movies

.. Never understood why that is, but is fascinating!

 

It's interesting that both you and Therese think mixing Jyotish and

western tropical is not good. I for one started in astrology here in

US and my first few years were spent in tropical. I suppose it does

offer a more liberal take on things which is perhaps good along with

the emphasis on free will etc. I admire that sense of Freedom.But

eventually the sidereal has helped me more personally.

 

I think a part of this fatalism in jyotish comes from India's deep and

total acceptance of reincarnation as a fact. That sets it apart as the

total picture is not the charts of just this life but those before and

after. So it makes the scenario a bit out of control and hence the

increased emphasis on astrology as a potent tool to understand the

journey of a particular soul. In case you are interested there is this

chart called shastya amsa. the 60th harmonic. They usually call it

D-60.( the sixtieth varga or Divisional chart). It relates to past

lives. Probably you already know it. I have been amazed to find some

deep connections between people's D 60's and their present life natal

and D9 charts. It can even tell you the past life death reasons and

situations etc. ( the third house from the AL in that chart).

 

BTW speaking of Arabs there were some major Arab Scholars ( I believe

one name as Ibn-Batuta) who visited India and exchanged notes on

Mathematics, geometry etc. I am sure this was a two way process.

Discovery of zero by Indians added to Arabs knowledge of maths.The

algebra actually was named on the mathematician called Al- Zebran.

In India there was this highly developed mathematics which was taught

in Sutras , short formulae that made calculations incredibly simple

and fast.I have tried them myself but they need to be practiced as a

whole system and not cherry picking style. E.g. Shakuntala Devi who

beat a super computer to do lengthy calculations uses those. These

were actually used,perhaps developed to calculate for astrology. It

will be interesting to find proofs of some connections between Arab

and Indian astrology in terms of exchange of knowledge. Let us know if

you find something:))

 

Cheers

Shiv

 

 

 

, " Sari M " <gerdapp wrote:

>

> Hi Shiv,

>

> you wrote:

>

> But seems like you are pretty deep into Jyotish. I take it that you use

> Jyotish as your primary technique and not tropical techniques

applied on a

> sidereal zodiac.

> >

> > May I ask how long you been doing this.

>

> Sari:

>

> I'm actually not so deep in Jyotish than I'm in Arabic/medieval

astrology

> done sidereally. When talking about sidereal astrology, nothing has

made the

> pieces to fall into their places for me personally than the

revelation that

> at least some of the Arabs were using sidereal tables and making their

> conclusions according to sidereal charts so, that it might not be

> " forbidden " after all to use medieval astrology (which I love most)

on the

> sidereal zodiac (which I love as well). I know one astrologer in

Sweden,

> Sanskrit specialist Martin Gansten, who thinks in the same way,

we've been

> in correspondence. There's two astrologers in Finland besides me who

are

> interested in traditional/medieval astrology, but they're both

tropicalists.

> Still they're both my friends.

>

> Shiv wrote:

>

> Looks like sidereal astro is on the rise in US. But Europe for some

> unexplainable reasons seems to be getting more people practicing

Jyotish.

> Maybe its because there were some cultural exchanges between Europe and

> India in middle and earlier ages. There was Prof. Max Muller. and a

strong

> German connection. I have heard at least till some years back there

was a

> Sanskrit news Bulletin broadcast there on radio for one. Apparently

there

> are many Germans doing research on Sanskrit too. I see sites sprouting

> suddenly in many European languages. But the European folks seem to

be doing

> pure Jyotish unlike the many in US who do western sidereal/jyotish

combo.

> Wonder why that is.

>

> Sari:

>

> This is an interesting subject and I hope I can put my thoughts in

words.

> From my perspective (which is limited), the US is definitely the

center of

> Western jyotish. But American jyotish has got a lot of influence

from modern

> tropical astrology, they have often adopted the sign interpretations

right

> from modern tropical books etc. That's not a good thing, IMO. In Europe

> there's interest in traditional Western astrology, and a noteworthy

thing is

> that especially people in Eastern European countries seem to be

interested

> in traditional techinques, both Indian and Western.

>

> You mentioned the cultural exhanges between Europe in India - I've

thought

> about this from a cultural/religious perspective. I belong to the Greek

> Catholic minority in Finland because my father's family is from

Carelia, the

> part of Eastern Finland that's belonged more or less to Russia for

much of

> history. I'm not very religious, but that upbringing and certain

> " ancestorial imprinting " has still left an impact on me. Most of the

people

> here in Finland are protestants.

>

> When I started to study jyotish, I noticed that in some regards

Orthodox

> christianity is closer to Hinduism than Protestantism! Protestantism is

> " modern " way of thinking, these Eastern philosophies (be it Eastern

> Christianity or Eastern Hinduism) are clearly more traditional and

> unchanging, and they both admit a certain mysterical world view. You

don't

> need to explain everything with science. Though not all the people

in West

> are protestants (far from that!), there's certain cultural influence

that is

> in some regards unavoidable. So, is it only coincidence that

traditional

> astrology is especially strong in Serbia, which is predominantly an

Orthodox

> country? Also in Russia there is a lot of interest in jyotish, and

K.N. Rao

> has praised his visits there, how spiritual the people are etc.

>

> The New Age beliefs have not got such a strong foothold in Europe

than in

> the US. Of course we have New Age (it seems that for some reason

that genre

> especially strong in Denmark), but it's not such a big business than

there.

> Maybe we are a bit more " fatalistic " and so in general the doomful

> traditional interpretations don't scare us so easily.

>

> These are just my personal thoughts and they may be biased.

>

> Best, Sari

>