Solar Returns

[Guest guest]

Hello You Two:

 

Thank you both for the many and informative postings I've read from each

of you on various groups over a long period of time. I do not post too

much, but having you both here on a topic of great interest to me - well

you've forced me to give up my 'lurker' status.

 

Do either of you know why a precessed tropical SolRet comes out with

different angles than a sidereal SolRet? I just cannot wrap my mind

around there being three possible Solar Returns.

 

Warmly, John

========================

 

Dark Star wrote:

>

>

> Therese,

>

> Fagan-Allen never said tropical returns were invalid. They just showed

> the sidereal were more efficient. Marc Penfield the same, hence his

> book, " Solar Returns in Your Face " pushing the precessed tropical which

> included an introduction by a siderealist.

>

> I work TZ & SZ everyday and the historical and seasonal Grand Old Zodiac

> (TZ) shows up wonderfully well. Its returns are sometimes better than SZ

> ~ Like the TZ solars for the assassination of Mussolini and his mistress

> Claretta Petacci on 4/28/45. BM: 7/29/1883 1:10:15 am UT Dovia, Italy.

> CP: 2/28/1912 10:15 am CST Roma, in which you can see the bullets

> killing those two in the angular Mars-Uranus hogging the angles. But

> their sidereals are diffuse...just handmaidens (in this example) in the

> consideration of the whole.

>

> Summers are equally good for everything from turning the pages of comic

> books with jammy fingers to parcing Kant. Your lovely Libra New Moon is

> also deep dark Scorpio.

>

> Sidereally & Tropically Yours,

>

> Dark*Star

> _____________________________

>

> Therese Hamilton wrote:

>

> > At 01:05 AM 5/21/08 -0700, Dark*Star wrote:

> >

> > > >Ciro Discepolo in his _Transits and Solar Returns_ after looking at

> >

> > > many thousands of charts over thirty years reports the 11th as the

> > house

> > > of death. He does go on and on.

> > >

> > > [Therese asked:] What house system does he use??

> > >

> > >[D*S replied:]

> > >I doubt that in his curiously written and tightly packed 530 pgs.

> > that

> > >he would even consider giving us the answer to that question. But in

> > >roughly plotting out a few of his100 maps it would appear Placidian.

> > >Already on page 14 he tells us about the 8th house and jail. I also

> > >doubt that sidereal appears anywhere either. The English translation

> > is

> > >colorful. I think it will reward my entire summer.

> > ----------------------------

> >

> > What is this?? Another astrological tome of many thousands of words

> > built

> > upon a foundation of sand strictly for our entertainment during long,

> > hot

> > (or cold) summers??? No house system mentioned?? No sidereal

> > perspective--meaning from the Fagan-Allen point of view he's using

> > invalid

> > solar returns??

> >

> > Therese

>

[Guest guest]

Hello John,

 

An example might be Geo. Bush's birthday next month, with the

Moon-Mars-Saturn conjunction...its IC in partile conjunction with his

natal Mars...that no one is talking about.

 

Sidereal & _Precessed Tropical Solar Return

7/06/08 4:41:39 am EDT New Haven CT.

 

Tropical Solar Return

7/05/08 6:42:34 am EDT New Haven CT.

 

This is only the 'what.' The 'why' requires astronomy.

 

Best,

 

Dark*Star

_______________________________

 

 

 

" Dr. John D. Andre " wrote:

 

> Do either of you know why a precessed tropical SolRet comes out with

> different angles than a sidereal SolRet? I just cannot wrap my mind

> around there being three possible Solar Returns.

>

> Warmly, John

>

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Many thanks for this..!!!

 

I just ran 3 BiWheels:

a). Tropical

b). Precessed Tropical

c). Sidereal

I am getting the 4:42 AM on the 6th of July on " a " & " b " , but I am not

getting N-Mars partile conjunct the Ret-IC. The closest I can see is

the N-Mars being 3 degrees off the Ret-IC. I am using Kepler, and its

math has never failed me. I have checked it against Solar Fire (which I

am not too skilled at using, yet). Both programs agree.

 

Please help me to see what I am missing. If you are correct - Tecumseh

will be VERY happy.

 

Warmly, John

======================

 

Dark Star wrote:

>

>

> Hello John,

>

> An example might be Geo. Bush's birthday next month, with the

> Moon-Mars-Saturn conjunction...its IC in partile conjunction with his

> natal Mars...that no one is talking about.

>

> Sidereal & _Precessed Tropical Solar Return

> 7/06/08 4:41:39 am EDT New Haven CT.

>

> Tropical Solar Return

> 7/05/08 6:42:34 am EDT New Haven CT.

>

> This is only the 'what.' The 'why' requires astronomy.

>

> Best,

>

> Dark*Star

> _______________________________

>

> " Dr. John D. Andre " wrote:

>

> > Do either of you know why a precessed tropical SolRet comes out with

> > different angles than a sidereal SolRet? I just cannot wrap my mind

> > around there being three possible Solar Returns.

> >

> > Warmly, John

>

[Guest guest]

At 03:06 PM 5/28/08 -0700, Dark*Starwrote:

>

>Hello John,

>

>An example might be Geo. Bush's birthday next month, with the

>Moon-Mars-Saturn conjunction...its IC in partile conjunction with his

>natal Mars...that no one is talking about.

>

>Sidereal & _Precessed Tropical Solar Return

>7/06/08 4:41:39 am EDT New Haven CT.

 

>Tropical Solar Return

>7/05/08 6:42:34 am EDT New Haven CT.

-----

 

Wrong terminology, D*S. It should be:

 

Sidereal & *precession corrected* tropical SR: 7/06/08 4:41:39 am

(Type 1 Solar Return)

 

and

 

Tropical (precessed) SR: 7/05/08 6:42:34 am

(Type 2 Solar Return)

 

Therese

[Guest guest]

John,

 

Let's straighten this out.

With SolarFire you don't get this?

 

15Leo19 Mars-Bush natal

15Leo50 IC -Bush SSR

 

John Milton Tabor was an astrologer of the first water. He was a US born

ex-pat living in Brazil. He had degrees in history and rectification was

his forte. One day several years ago he thanked us all round, announcing

on the list that he had just one post to send to D*S and then would have

to leave the list immediately not to return. No reason given. I didn't

know what he was trying to tell me as we hadn't his chart. We found out

after that he had died hours later. All this by way of his rectification

for ~

 

Chief Tecumseh

March 9, 1768

0:41:30 am LMT

Piqua, Ohio

 

Regards,

 

Dark*Star

____________________________

 

" Dr. John D. Andre " wrote:

 

> Many thanks for this..!!!

>

> I just ran 3 BiWheels:

> a). Tropical

> b). Precessed Tropical

> c). Sidereal

> I am getting the 4:42 AM on the 6th of July on " a " & " b " , but I am not

>

> getting N-Mars partile conjunct the Ret-IC. The closest I can see is

> the N-Mars being 3 degrees off the Ret-IC. I am using Kepler, and its

> math has never failed me. I have checked it against Solar Fire (which

> I

> am not too skilled at using, yet). Both programs agree.

>

> Please help me to see what I am missing. If you are correct - Tecumseh

>

> will be VERY happy.

>

> Warmly, John

> ======================

>

>

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

At 09:23 PM 5/28/08 -0700, D*S wrote:

>

>John,

>

>Let's straighten this out.

>With SolarFire you don't get this?

>

>15Leo19 Mars-Bush natal

>15Leo50 IC -Bush SSR

-------------------------

>

> " Dr. John D. Andre " wrote:

>

>> I am getting the 4:42 AM on the 6th of July on " a " & " b " , but I am not

>>

>> getting N-Mars partile conjunct the Ret-IC. The closest I can see is

>> the N-Mars being 3 degrees off the Ret-IC. I am using Kepler, and its

>> math has never failed me. I have checked it against Solar Fire (which

>> I

>> am not too skilled at using, yet). Both programs agree.

>>

>> Please help me to see what I am missing. If you are correct - Tecumseh

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

John, it looks like Dark*Star computed the SR for Bush's birthplace, and

you used Washington DC??

 

For New Haven I get: Natal Mars 16 Leo 18

SR IC 16 Leo 49

 

For Washington: Natal Mars 16 Leo 18

SR IC 12 Leo 26

 

(Krishnamurti) Orbs would be the same for any ayanamsa or the precession

corrected tropical chart.

 

Therese

 

Therese

[Guest guest]

Hello Therese:

 

That clears it up. I made an assumption to relocate the chart (I always

do). It's that old " ass/u/me " deal, I guess.

 

I have to ask you two, how much residual influence do you see from the

natal birth place bleeding through onto the lives of people who have

moved from their birth place many years before?

 

Warmly, John

==========================================

Therese Hamilton wrote:

>

> At 09:23 PM 5/28/08 -0700, D*S wrote:

> >

> >John,

> >

> >Let's straighten this out.

> >With SolarFire you don't get this?

> >

> >15Leo19 Mars-Bush natal

> >15Leo50 IC -Bush SSR

> -------------------------

> >

> > " Dr. John D. Andre " wrote:

> >

> >> I am getting the 4:42 AM on the 6th of July on " a " & " b " , but I am not

> >>

> >> getting N-Mars partile conjunct the Ret-IC. The closest I can see is

> >> the N-Mars being 3 degrees off the Ret-IC. I am using Kepler, and its

> >> math has never failed me. I have checked it against Solar Fire (which

> >> I

> >> am not too skilled at using, yet). Both programs agree.

> >>

> >> Please help me to see what I am missing. If you are correct - Tecumseh

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

>

> John, it looks like Dark*Star computed the SR for Bush's birthplace, and

> you used Washington DC??

>

> For New Haven I get: Natal Mars 16 Leo 18

> SR IC 16 Leo 49

>

> For Washington: Natal Mars 16 Leo 18

> SR IC 12 Leo 26

>

> (Krishnamurti) Orbs would be the same for any ayanamsa or the precession

> corrected tropical chart.

>

> Therese

>

> Therese

>

>

[Guest guest]

At 03:07 AM 5/29/08 -0400, John wrote:

 

>I have to ask you two, how much residual influence do you see from the

>natal birth place bleeding through onto the lives of people who have

>moved from their birth place many years before?

------------------------

 

I don't put a lot of faith into the usual re-location charts--the ones

where map lines are used. When I read the entire solar return, I use the

birth place location. But if I set up the SR chart for a new location, I

only look at the planets that actually fall close to the angles. I don't

relate them to houses.

 

If the natal chart is re-located to a new residence, any planets closely

conjoined to the angles or closely aspecting the angles (major aspect) seem

to come to the fore. For example in the location where I was born I have an

angular Venus. That's where I studied and taught art, and met and married

my husband. I also had a lot of family connections (Venus).

 

When I moved to California where my Mercury-Uranus is the only strong natal

configuration, I've had an almost purely Mercurial life spending most of my

time with astrology--earned two university degrees--a lot of astrological

study and research as well as communication. But natal Venus remained

active with marriage and children and preferring to work from home. (Edgar

Cayce connects Venus to the home rather than the Moon which may be why the

Gauquelins didn't find Venus connected to any professions.)

 

The little research I've done with those map lines didn't seem conclusive

to me. Using those lines Venus isn't in a strong position in my birth

place. As I remember, I think it's out in the ocean somewhere.

 

Therese