Guest guest Posted March 5, 2009 Report Share Posted March 5, 2009 Hi Sari and all, Sari, I'm not sure if anyone but the two of us is following this conversation, but I've been re-reading some of the Project Hindsight translations on zodiac sign. (How useful a photographic memory would be! I have to keep reviewing the material to remember it all.) Anyway, it's interesting that although Ptolemy didn't assign elements to the triplicities, many later writers did--but not all of them. Paulus Alexandrinus (c 378 C.E.) gave the elements to the trigons in this way: Aries, Taurus, Gemini = Air (The change of the spring season is completed.) Cancer, Leo, Virgo = Fire (The change of the summer season is completed.) Libra, Scropio, Sag = Earth (The change of the fall season is completed.) Capricorn, Aquarius, Pisces = Water (The change of the winter season is completed.) (Paulus Alexandrinus, Introductory Matters, translated by Robert Schmidt, The Golden Hind Press, 1993, pp. 2-4) Paulus gave us a useful summary of late Hellenistic astrology according to Project Hindsight notes, so we know that there wasn't total agreement among astrologers as to characteristics of the trigons. Then the second interesting note involves Vittius Valens' sign descriptions. This caught my eye because I had noted that if Aristotle's qualities can be assigned to the trigons, then the Gemini trigon has been called 'masculine' by everyone, but " Cold " is " active and feminine. " (For clarity on this point, please see my article on the Lost Zodiac site, " Part 5: More on Polarity and the Trigons. " Anyway, for Gemini, Libra, and Aquarius, Valens dutifully classes these signs as " Masculine, " but then he calls each of them " effeminate " according to Schmidt's translation.(The Anthology, Book 1, pp. 2-4) Valens doesn't use that term for any of the other zodiac signs. " Effeminate " of course means " having feminine qualities such as softness. " [That's from the dictionary.] According to Aristotle, the feminine quality relates to women's characteristics such as softness and emotionality. I thought this was interesting on the part of Valens. Of course, he gives no explanation of why " effeminate " is assigned to the Gemini trigon. So I like the possible explanation that the term applies to the trigon that may in fact be Aristotle's " Cold. " I'm going to amend my article to include this Valens note. Best, Therese Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2009 Report Share Posted March 6, 2009 Therese wrote: Then the second interesting note involves Vittius Valens' sign descriptions. Sari: There are a lot of highly interesting points in Valens' sign descriptions from the sidereal point of view. I don't have the Project Hindsight translations, but I have the sign descriptions by Valens in a separate file. Aries is among other things (I'm taking the attributes differing most from the modern tropical descriptions): - good - changeable - civic - servile; Taurus is - bony - versed in a handicraft; Gemini is - effeminate - capable in matters of household management - prudent - initiates in occult matters; Cancer is - public - popular - civil - fond of repute - theatrical - cheerful - fond of pleasure and entertaining - those who do not remain with one activity or two for long, who end up wandering and sojourning abroad; Leo is - irascible - hating work - despising flattery; Libra is - good and just, though malicious - desirous of the goods of others - [about] those who lose what they have first acquired and those who have their ups and downs - [about] those who live irregularly; Sagittarius is - enigmatical - authoritative - kingly - critical - lover of reputation - notable; Capricorn is - destructive - licentious - servile - a sign for stone-cutters and farmers - bad - good and simple at exposition - full of care - fond of laughter - of those who make bad mistakes - fickle - mischievous - liar - shameful; Aquarius is - effeminate - unchangeable - bad - cause of troubles through struggle or of burdens and working in hard materials - pertaining to those who practice handicrafts - malicious and hater of his own family - deceitful - treacherous - [about] those who conceal everything - misanthropist - accuser - betrayer of opinion and truth - begrudging - concerned with trifles; Pisces is - full of eruptions - restless - rough - sociable - a cause of wandering - erotic - licentious - prolific - popular. Best, Sari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2009 Report Share Posted March 6, 2009 What happened to Virgo and Scorpio? ....Bettina _____ On Behalf Of Sari M Friday, March 06, 2009 6:15 AM Re: Two Intresting Trigon Notes Therese wrote: Then the second interesting note involves Vittius Valens' sign descriptions. Sari: There are a lot of highly interesting points in Valens' sign descriptions from the sidereal point of view. I don't have the Project Hindsight translations, but I have the sign descriptions by Valens in a separate file. Aries is among other things (I'm taking the attributes differing most from the modern tropical descriptions): - good - changeable - civic - servile; Taurus is - bony - versed in a handicraft; Gemini is - effeminate - capable in matters of household management - prudent - initiates in occult matters; Cancer is - public - popular - civil - fond of repute - theatrical - cheerful - fond of pleasure and entertaining - those who do not remain with one activity or two for long, who end up wandering and sojourning abroad; Leo is - irascible - hating work - despising flattery; Libra is - good and just, though malicious - desirous of the goods of others - [about] those who lose what they have first acquired and those who have their ups and downs - [about] those who live irregularly; Sagittarius is - enigmatical - authoritative - kingly - critical - lover of reputation - notable; Capricorn is - destructive - licentious - servile - a sign for stone-cutters and farmers - bad - good and simple at exposition - full of care - fond of laughter - of those who make bad mistakes - fickle - mischievous - liar - shameful; Aquarius is - effeminate - unchangeable - bad - cause of troubles through struggle or of burdens and working in hard materials - pertaining to those who practice handicrafts - malicious and hater of his own family - deceitful - treacherous - [about] those who conceal everything - misanthropist - accuser - betrayer of opinion and truth - begrudging - concerned with trifles; Pisces is - full of eruptions - restless - rough - sociable - a cause of wandering - erotic - licentious - prolific - popular. Best, Sari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2009 Report Share Posted March 6, 2009 At 07:46 AM 3/6/09 -0700, Bettina wrote: >What happened to Virgo and Scorpio? Hi Bettina and Sari, Sari, thanks for posting some of Valens' sign traits. We know that Valens was a practicing astrologer who travled a great deal. One gets the impression from reading what he says about signs that he talked to a lot of astrologers (each having his own opinion and observations), and then combined it all together in a book, probably adding some of his own thoughts. Valens sounds to me like some tropical books of today: a sort of free-flowing stream of consciousness, some of it of dubious value. But Valens is valuable in sorting out the sources of traits (in theory, anyway). Valens also has a lot of seasonal and constellation/star influences, co-risings, etc. in his descriptions. For example, of Aries he says, " Aries is watery, full of thunder, hail...[it] has 19 bright stars, and it has 13 bright stars through the belt...[etc.] " It seems that back then astrologers had no more discrimination than they have today! Of course everything had to be hand written, and any editing and changes would have been very difficult. So maybe Valens made lists as he traveled, and left his notes as is. I've been taking notes from Manilius, whose sign descrptions are totally different than Valens--checking to see if they sound reasonable. There were only two authors we have prior to Ptolemy: Dorotheus, who says nothing about signs except that there are trigons and their rulers, and Manilius, who sounds very different than astrologers after Ptolemy. When it all boils down to the basics, it's up to us moderns to determine meanings associataed with signs. Best, Therese Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2009 Report Share Posted March 6, 2009 I love the descriptions of some of the signs as " bad " . What does " bad " mean? Oh, yes, and they just happen to be the signs ruled by Saturn! .....Bettina _____ On Behalf Of Therese Hamilton Friday, March 06, 2009 9:56 AM RE: Two Intresting Trigon Notes At 07:46 AM 3/6/09 -0700, Bettina wrote: >What happened to Virgo and Scorpio? Hi Bettina and Sari, Sari, thanks for posting some of Valens' sign traits. We know that Valens was a practicing astrologer who travled a great deal. One gets the impression from reading what he says about signs that he talked to a lot of astrologers (each having his own opinion and observations), and then combined it all together in a book, probably adding some of his own thoughts. Valens sounds to me like some tropical books of today: a sort of free-flowing stream of consciousness, some of it of dubious value. But Valens is valuable in sorting out the sources of traits (in theory, anyway). Valens also has a lot of seasonal and constellation/star influences, co-risings, etc. in his descriptions. For example, of Aries he says, " Aries is watery, full of thunder, hail...[it] has 19 bright stars, and it has 13 bright stars through the belt...[etc.] " It seems that back then astrologers had no more discrimination than they have today! Of course everything had to be hand written, and any editing and changes would have been very difficult. So maybe Valens made lists as he traveled, and left his notes as is. I've been taking notes from Manilius, whose sign descrptions are totally different than Valens--checking to see if they sound reasonable. There were only two authors we have prior to Ptolemy: Dorotheus, who says nothing about signs except that there are trigons and their rulers, and Manilius, who sounds very different than astrologers after Ptolemy. When it all boils down to the basics, it's up to us moderns to determine meanings associataed with signs. Best, Therese Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 2009 Report Share Posted March 7, 2009 Hi Bettina, there were no traits that would have differed significantly from the current descriptions. Especially the Scorpio part by Valens is quite negative. Here're the whole descriptions from The Anthology by Vettius Valens: VIRGO Virgo is the house of Hermes, feminine, winged, human in form, fastidious, set in the shape of Justice, bicorporeal, barren, pertaining to freedman, unfruitful, descending, earthy, common, semi-vocal and mute, corporeal, incomplete, changeable, pertaining to those who practice a handicraft, dual-natured. Those who are so born are good, modest, involved with the mysteries, full of care, those who lead a diverse life, managers of the property of others, faithful, good at domestic affairs, writers, those who are supported by speeches and calculations, hypocritical, curious, initiates into occult matters, those who spend their initial resources but prosper in middle age. SCORPIO Scorpio is the house of Mars, feminine, solid, watery, prolific, destructive, descending, mute, slavish, unchangeable, cause of foul smells, subtractive of one's belongings, a place for eclipses, diverse. Those so born are treacherous, knavish, rapacious, murderous, traitors, unchangeable, those who are liable to have their belongings taken away, secretive plotters, thieves, perjured, desirous of the things of others, privy to murders or sorcery or malicious doings, haters of their own families. ----- The temperament descriptions by Randy Rolfe I mentioned earlier have a surprisingly lot of similarities to the element descriptions of B. V. Raman offered in " How to Judge a Horoscope, vol. 1 " in the Fifth House chapter. Raman used a sidereal zodiac for all his life. In these texts Raman explores situations where a certain element is on the 5th house cusp signifying mental charasteristics. When using the Whole Sign houses, the element on the 5th cusp is the same as on the Ascendant, and the Ascendant is probably the most important single factor when considering one's temperament. First the fire element by B. V. Raman: " Rasis or fiery signs (Aries, Leo and Sagittarius) have reference to the fifth house, the native cannot be corrupt unless the horoscope has other unfavourable attributes. The native possesses vivid idiosyncracies. He takes everything in the world seriously and possesses a sense of importance. In excess, this independence of spirit, characteristic of this tatwa, can be offensive in relation to other people. (---) When not afflicted, the person faces life with courage and the mind voyages through the strange seas of thought alone. Unless the Moon is away from this combination, emotion is life to the person. His marked trait would be that he can forgive almost anything excepting a fool. The quality of stupidity makes him indignant. However, there exist softer and milder types of the same central character. A literary writer, in whom this element is strong, excels in developing an idea. The mind travels too far afield. There is little sequence of ideas or sense of structure and the general effect is illogical. (---) Summing up, a fiery sign on the fifth house gives that ardent, fiery quality which inspires and invigorates one with the energy to act.´It is dynamic and forceful, aspiring and inspiring. It saves one from being sunk in the inner seas of emotion or lost in the ailly heights of abstract thought. " Then Randy Rolfe about the Choleric humor: " The choleric humor corresponds to fire. It is bright like the sun. The choleric woman or man is a person of vision and intuition. She makes decisions with a laser-like assessment and definitive answer, from the gut, with total confidence. She is slow to anger because few things can distract her from her goal, but her anger is swift and decisive if it erupts. She has no time for ambiguity. She can burn you up in her forward motion without even realizing it. She is a person of action - she gets things done. She feels a strong responsibility of leadership and competes aggressively to be the best. She likes to see things to comprehend them and grasps ideas quickly. " Then the Earth element by Raman: " If the Uhutatwa Rasis or earthly signs (Taurus, Capricorn and Virgo) are in the 5th house, the person will possess a retentive memory, imagination and deep feeling. He has an attraction for hidden things. He is difficult to deal with as he is elusive, trifle, impish, stubborn and somewhat peevish. (---) The earthy element makes the person take a mystical view of physical life. This element is intuitional and psychic. Another fundamental quality is retrospection and exquisite sensibility often elevated to a mystical belief in an inner life within the forms and objects of nature. Criticism and censure closely allied to active kindness and helpfulness, obstinacy, a certain irritability, closeness over money and jealousy, in love, are some of the important characteristics of this group. " And the Melacholic temperament by Randy Rolfe: " The melancholic humor corresponds to the earth. It is the most grounded of the humors. The melancholic woman or man can vary tremendously from being very earthy in language or humor or dress to being flighty, mobile, and highly poetic and expressive. Nature has huge impact on the melancholic. She is much like mercury, one of the thickest liquid elements, that goes up and down dramatically with the atmospheric pressure. Melancholics are in fact very sensitive to weather changes. She can swing from very playful and social to withdrawn and solitary. She can anger very quickly and will often hold onto a grudge for some time. She makes decisions either on a whim or very deliberately, and either way can doubt her decisions later because of her changeability and her fervent desire to be grounded in the truth. The most famous melancholic in all of literature would be Shakespeare's Hamlet. He is passionate, changeable, a superb actor, self-deprecating, creative, quick-witted, artistic, and athletic. He is also haunted by skepticism, indecision, melancholy, a desire to escape, and mercurial highs and lows. " The Air element by Raman: The Vayutatwa Rasis (airy signs), viz., Gemini; Libra and Aquarius on the 5th house, give rise to an altogether different emotional set-up. The Vayutatva element is concerned with conduct rather than motive, with action rather than thought or feeling. One characteristic of a person born under this set-up is his liking for the ordinary and familiar - the insignificant things in life, humble everyday people and simple annals of the poor. (---) Usually shrewd and far-seeing, one born with a Vayutatwa Rasi in the fifth house is an innate philosopher. However much disturbed, he has the capacity to remain calm and settle into poise. In general outlook the philosophy is that of determinism and the work is often shadowed by a dark sense of fate. The past is looked upon and valued chiefly as a fact and not as a cherished memory. He observes tradition and convention. He upholds existing laws and conditions in religion and philosophy. At its very highest it becomes a grave acceptance of some power ordering human lives, a submission to the inevitable and to a noble resignation to the outworking of universal laws. The virtues of this group are discipline and restraint, its ideals obedience and sobriety. (---) Summing up, one born with a Vayvtatwa Rasi on the 5th possesses the commonsense necessary to rule the world: He is awake to realities. He has his own virtues and qualities which no other elements can give. He makes us realise that facts are facts which we must face and accept - not run away from or try to distort. The Sanguine temperament by Randy Rolfe: " The sanguine humor corresponds to the air. It is the humor of communication, passion, relatedness. It is sometimes called wind or breath, since air as a substance was not even known until several hundred years ago. But the ancients knew that the blood was very responsive to the breath. The sanguine man can be accused of being a windbag, or full of hot air, because he or she is so driven to talk, persuade, interact, communicate. He angers slowly and forgives quickly, because he craves relationships. He makes decisions based on the effects on all present and rarely reconsiders. He loves promoting get-togethers and attending events and is often one of the last to leave. He likes meeting new people and seldom feels the need to be alone. " Comment: Raman's Air and the Sanguine temperament is the couple that differs most from each other. Recently I've been systematically going through my friends, colleagues, etc. with the Janus program and its temperament module, which can also be used sidereally. The Sanguine temperament gives the oddest results. But those people fit finely with Raman's description of Air! My husband clearly has a sanguine temperament according to his sidereal horoscope, and he doesn't fit with Rolfe's description of sanguine people very well, but Raman's text above hits the nail exactly. Could it be that the sanguine description is somewhat changed over the centuries? The Water element by Raman: " If the fifth house falls in a Jalatatwa Rasi (Cancer, Scorpio and Pisces), it indicates an attitude of mind where balance is the dominant element. The person will possess an impartiality of outlook, a kindly tolerance and a philosophy of moderation, poise and a sense of proportion. There is also a certain amount of satire and a mixture of jest and earnest. The mental disposition is one of quieter but more persistent effort. (---) The person will be uncompromising, exacting, fault-finding. Yet he can display keen judgment and power of imparital criticism. The wisdom of the serpent lies concealed. Tenacity is one of his chief characteristics. He will display sympathy, persistence, emotion and be somewhat self-possessed and self-reliant. " The Phlegmatic temperament by Randy Rolfe: " The phlegmatic humor corresponds to water. It flows. The phlegmatic man does whatever needs to be done. He takes hold of tasks and completes them reliably and consistently. Even the most tedious work gives hint satisfaction when it is done well. He learns crafts and skills quickly, carefully, and masterfully. Dedication, devotion, and helping people or a cause have great value to him. Loyalty and family are deep motivations. Solutions to problems through attention to detail and group effort give him great pride. He angers easily but forgives easily. He loves to relax after work, laugh, and play with family and friends. He is friendly, cheerful, sometimes shy. He is flexible, very accepting of those around him, but immovable when basic values are at stake. " Conclusion: The non-astrological temperament descriptions by Randy Rolfe don't bear much resemblance to the modern astrological descriptions of elements, but they have a lot in common with how B. V. Raman saw the elements from his sidereal viewpoint. Best, Sari - " Bettina " <chiria Friday, March 06, 2009 4:46 PM RE: Two Intresting Trigon Notes What happened to Virgo and Scorpio? ....Bettina Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 2009 Report Share Posted March 7, 2009 Thanks, Sari. Not terribly flattering, particularly to Scorpio! ....Bettina _____ On Behalf Of Sari M Saturday, March 07, 2009 12:48 AM Re: Two Intresting Trigon Notes Hi Bettina, there were no traits that would have differed significantly from the current descriptions. Especially the Scorpio part by Valens is quite negative. Here're the whole descriptions from The Anthology by Vettius Valens: VIRGO Virgo is the house of Hermes, feminine, winged, human in form, fastidious, set in the shape of Justice, bicorporeal, barren, pertaining to freedman, unfruitful, descending, earthy, common, semi-vocal and mute, corporeal, incomplete, changeable, pertaining to those who practice a handicraft, dual-natured. Those who are so born are good, modest, involved with the mysteries, full of care, those who lead a diverse life, managers of the property of others, faithful, good at domestic affairs, writers, those who are supported by speeches and calculations, hypocritical, curious, initiates into occult matters, those who spend their initial resources but prosper in middle age. SCORPIO Scorpio is the house of Mars, feminine, solid, watery, prolific, destructive, descending, mute, slavish, unchangeable, cause of foul smells, subtractive of one's belongings, a place for eclipses, diverse. Those so born are treacherous, knavish, rapacious, murderous, traitors, unchangeable, those who are liable to have their belongings taken away, secretive plotters, thieves, perjured, desirous of the things of others, privy to murders or sorcery or malicious doings, haters of their own families. ------------------------- The temperament descriptions by Randy Rolfe I mentioned earlier have a surprisingly lot of similarities to the element descriptions of B. V. Raman offered in " How to Judge a Horoscope, vol. 1 " in the Fifth House chapter. Raman used a sidereal zodiac for all his life. In these texts Raman explores situations where a certain element is on the 5th house cusp signifying mental charasteristics. When using the Whole Sign houses, the element on the 5th cusp is the same as on the Ascendant, and the Ascendant is probably the most important single factor when considering one's temperament. First the fire element by B. V. Raman: " Rasis or fiery signs (Aries, Leo and Sagittarius) have reference to the fifth house, the native cannot be corrupt unless the horoscope has other unfavourable attributes. The native possesses vivid idiosyncracies. He takes everything in the world seriously and possesses a sense of importance. In excess, this independence of spirit, characteristic of this tatwa, can be offensive in relation to other people. (---) When not afflicted, the person faces life with courage and the mind voyages through the strange seas of thought alone. Unless the Moon is away from this combination, emotion is life to the person. His marked trait would be that he can forgive almost anything excepting a fool. The quality of stupidity makes him indignant. However, there exist softer and milder types of the same central character. A literary writer, in whom this element is strong, excels in developing an idea. The mind travels too far afield. There is little sequence of ideas or sense of structure and the general effect is illogical. (---) Summing up, a fiery sign on the fifth house gives that ardent, fiery quality which inspires and invigorates one with the energy to act.´It is dynamic and forceful, aspiring and inspiring. It saves one from being sunk in the inner seas of emotion or lost in the ailly heights of abstract thought. " Then Randy Rolfe about the Choleric humor: " The choleric humor corresponds to fire. It is bright like the sun. The choleric woman or man is a person of vision and intuition. She makes decisions with a laser-like assessment and definitive answer, from the gut, with total confidence. She is slow to anger because few things can distract her from her goal, but her anger is swift and decisive if it erupts. She has no time for ambiguity. She can burn you up in her forward motion without even realizing it. She is a person of action - she gets things done. She feels a strong responsibility of leadership and competes aggressively to be the best. She likes to see things to comprehend them and grasps ideas quickly. " Then the Earth element by Raman: " If the Uhutatwa Rasis or earthly signs (Taurus, Capricorn and Virgo) are in the 5th house, the person will possess a retentive memory, imagination and deep feeling. He has an attraction for hidden things. He is difficult to deal with as he is elusive, trifle, impish, stubborn and somewhat peevish. (---) The earthy element makes the person take a mystical view of physical life. This element is intuitional and psychic. Another fundamental quality is retrospection and exquisite sensibility often elevated to a mystical belief in an inner life within the forms and objects of nature. Criticism and censure closely allied to active kindness and helpfulness, obstinacy, a certain irritability, closeness over money and jealousy, in love, are some of the important characteristics of this group. " And the Melacholic temperament by Randy Rolfe: " The melancholic humor corresponds to the earth. It is the most grounded of the humors. The melancholic woman or man can vary tremendously from being very earthy in language or humor or dress to being flighty, mobile, and highly poetic and expressive. Nature has huge impact on the melancholic. She is much like mercury, one of the thickest liquid elements, that goes up and down dramatically with the atmospheric pressure. Melancholics are in fact very sensitive to weather changes. She can swing from very playful and social to withdrawn and solitary. She can anger very quickly and will often hold onto a grudge for some time. She makes decisions either on a whim or very deliberately, and either way can doubt her decisions later because of her changeability and her fervent desire to be grounded in the truth. The most famous melancholic in all of literature would be Shakespeare's Hamlet. He is passionate, changeable, a superb actor, self-deprecating, creative, quick-witted, artistic, and athletic. He is also haunted by skepticism, indecision, melancholy, a desire to escape, and mercurial highs and lows. " The Air element by Raman: The Vayutatwa Rasis (airy signs), viz., Gemini; Libra and Aquarius on the 5th house, give rise to an altogether different emotional set-up. The Vayutatva element is concerned with conduct rather than motive, with action rather than thought or feeling. One characteristic of a person born under this set-up is his liking for the ordinary and familiar - the insignificant things in life, humble everyday people and simple annals of the poor. (---) Usually shrewd and far-seeing, one born with a Vayutatwa Rasi in the fifth house is an innate philosopher. However much disturbed, he has the capacity to remain calm and settle into poise. In general outlook the philosophy is that of determinism and the work is often shadowed by a dark sense of fate. The past is looked upon and valued chiefly as a fact and not as a cherished memory. He observes tradition and convention. He upholds existing laws and conditions in religion and philosophy. At its very highest it becomes a grave acceptance of some power ordering human lives, a submission to the inevitable and to a noble resignation to the outworking of universal laws. The virtues of this group are discipline and restraint, its ideals obedience and sobriety. (---) Summing up, one born with a Vayvtatwa Rasi on the 5th possesses the commonsense necessary to rule the world: He is awake to realities. He has his own virtues and qualities which no other elements can give. He makes us realise that facts are facts which we must face and accept - not run away from or try to distort. The Sanguine temperament by Randy Rolfe: " The sanguine humor corresponds to the air. It is the humor of communication, passion, relatedness. It is sometimes called wind or breath, since air as a substance was not even known until several hundred years ago. But the ancients knew that the blood was very responsive to the breath. The sanguine man can be accused of being a windbag, or full of hot air, because he or she is so driven to talk, persuade, interact, communicate. He angers slowly and forgives quickly, because he craves relationships. He makes decisions based on the effects on all present and rarely reconsiders. He loves promoting get-togethers and attending events and is often one of the last to leave. He likes meeting new people and seldom feels the need to be alone. " Comment: Raman's Air and the Sanguine temperament is the couple that differs most from each other. Recently I've been systematically going through my friends, colleagues, etc. with the Janus program and its temperament module, which can also be used sidereally. The Sanguine temperament gives the oddest results. But those people fit finely with Raman's description of Air! My husband clearly has a sanguine temperament according to his sidereal horoscope, and he doesn't fit with Rolfe's description of sanguine people very well, but Raman's text above hits the nail exactly. Could it be that the sanguine description is somewhat changed over the centuries? The Water element by Raman: " If the fifth house falls in a Jalatatwa Rasi (Cancer, Scorpio and Pisces), it indicates an attitude of mind where balance is the dominant element. The person will possess an impartiality of outlook, a kindly tolerance and a philosophy of moderation, poise and a sense of proportion. There is also a certain amount of satire and a mixture of jest and earnest. The mental disposition is one of quieter but more persistent effort. (---) The person will be uncompromising, exacting, fault-finding. Yet he can display keen judgment and power of imparital criticism. The wisdom of the serpent lies concealed. Tenacity is one of his chief characteristics. He will display sympathy, persistence, emotion and be somewhat self-possessed and self-reliant. " The Phlegmatic temperament by Randy Rolfe: " The phlegmatic humor corresponds to water. It flows. The phlegmatic man does whatever needs to be done. He takes hold of tasks and completes them reliably and consistently. Even the most tedious work gives hint satisfaction when it is done well. He learns crafts and skills quickly, carefully, and masterfully. Dedication, devotion, and helping people or a cause have great value to him. Loyalty and family are deep motivations. Solutions to problems through attention to detail and group effort give him great pride. He angers easily but forgives easily. He loves to relax after work, laugh, and play with family and friends. He is friendly, cheerful, sometimes shy. He is flexible, very accepting of those around him, but immovable when basic values are at stake. " Conclusion: The non-astrological temperament descriptions by Randy Rolfe don't bear much resemblance to the modern astrological descriptions of elements, but they have a lot in common with how B. V. Raman saw the elements from his sidereal viewpoint. Best, Sari - " Bettina " <chiria (AT) npgcable (DOT) <chiria%40npgcable.com> com> <@ <%40> > Friday, March 06, 2009 4:46 PM RE: Two Intresting Trigon Notes What happened to Virgo and Scorpio? ....Bettina Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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