Signs in Mundane Astrology

[Guest guest]

Dave Monroe wrote on the NCGR Forum:

 

" I for one, feel that Tropical signs work nicely in Political/Mundane

charting, are somewhat applicable in natal charts (although I can work

without them) and are not needed in solar return and daily charts. That's

my view at this time. I would be interested in the views of others

relative to these areas of practice. "

 

Hi Dave,

 

I've been monitoring this particular discussion on the NCGR Forum, but for

personal reasons including time constraints I don't post there. I also like

to see the conversation flowing nicely without input from a staunch

sidereal user. I found your statement above intriguing, and wonder if you

could possibly give us an example or two of how you see tropical signs

" working nicely " in political and mundane charting? After all, it's the

nuts and bolts of practical application that give us reasons for using

signs in one zodiac or the other.

 

Thanks,

Therese

[Guest guest]

Therese, I'm engaged in two astrological projects at the moment --- the final

editing phase of my book, and a total revamp and re-filing of all my chart files

over the past 20 years. It seems that I looked into terrorism a while back,

using the last Saturn-Pluto conjunction. That pairing seemed appropriate to

terrorism. Using the conjunction time I did located S/R and PSSR charts for the

bombing of the world trade center, the 911 attack, the Spanish train bombing,

the attack on the USS Cole --- they all seemed to be appropriate when using my

methods. I'll have to see if I can come across these charts. In any case, if

you don't here from me on this issue by the holidays, please remind me --- it

should be a fun exercise.

 

Dave

[Guest guest]

At 01:53 AM 11/29/2009 +0000, you wrote:

>Therese, I'm engaged in two astrological projects at the moment --- the

>final editing phase of my book, and a total revamp and re-filing of all my

>chart files over the past 20 years.

 

Now that's something I should be doing myself--re-filing and organizing

charts. I think I'll enlist the help of my daughter during the Christmas

vacation break. She has a lot more stamina than I have.

 

>[DM] It seems that I looked into terrorism a while back, using the last

>Saturn-Pluto conjunction. That pairing seemed appropriate to

>terrorism. Using the conjunction time I did located S/R and PSSR charts

>for the bombing of the world trade center, the 911 attack, the Spanish

>train bombing, the attack on the USS Cole --- they all seemed to be

>appropriate when using my methods.

 

Hmmm....I don't see any mention of zodiac signs! And you've already said

you don't consider signs in solar returns and progressed charts. So I

remain puzzled....until such time as we might discuss mundane events on

this forum. As I recall, the significant terrorist attacks began after

Pluto entered sidereal Scorpio, whose lord is Mars. Somewhere I have a file

of Pluto into Scorpio events.

 

Same as you--I have other projects going, and I'm sitting on 40 years of

research and supporting event data, magazines. web printouts, etc.

You name it. But there's no doubt that the current financial fiascoes

began after Pluto entered sidereal Sagittarius ruled by Jupiter--whose

mundane significance is Big Money.

 

Of course tropical astrologers are conveniently forgetting to notice that

the world financial crisis began well before Pluto entered Capricorn while

pointing to this sign as the keynote of the financial collapse. Saturn,

lord of Capricorn....Saturn, planet of the common working man and having

nothing at all to do with greedy banks, wall street or financial mismanagement.

 

I'd stake my life on the fact that no one can make a case for the tropical

zodiac based on significant mundane events.

 

So....until later, Happy Holiday Season!

 

Therese

[Guest guest]

The world went flat last year as Pluto in the signs contacted

00*Cap00'00 " in January and June and November in 2008. Lehman Bros fell

mid-September. It doesn't get more exemplary than that.

 

Charles Carter, leading almost every other prominent English astrologer

declared Hitler would not attack England because 'Mr Hitler' was a man

of peace. The astrologers based this on the Aries Ingress at London

1939. Fritz Brunhuebner's book on Pluto had come out in the early 30's

but we don't know if they used it --one degree from exactly rising here

so I'll exclude it. The answer is really in the exactitude of the 0*

placements. Carter was so embarrassed he fled ingresses looking for

better methods and we began to hear about subsumption. His tropical

solar hardly more that a month old shows this profoundly. He wasn't the

same afterwards.

 

Dark*Star

 

================================================

 

Therese Hamilton wrote:

>

>

> But there's no doubt that the current financial fiascoes

> began after Pluto entered sidereal Sagittarius ruled by Jupiter--whose

> mundane significance is Big Money.

>

> Of course tropical astrologers are conveniently forgetting to notice that

> the world financial crisis began well before Pluto entered Capricorn

> while

> pointing to this sign as the keynote of the financial collapse. Saturn,

> lord of Capricorn....Saturn, planet of the common working man and having

> nothing at all to do with greedy banks, wall street or financial

> mismanagement.

>

> I'd stake my life on the fact that no one can make a case for the

> tropical

> zodiac based on significant mundane events.

>

[Guest guest]

Therese, you've just made an important point! You said, " But there's no doubt

that the current financial fiascoes began after Pluto entered sidereal

Sagittarius ruled by Jupiter--whose mundane significance is Big Money. "

 

My personal inclination is to treat the sidereal (small " s " ) as a

place/force/idea-construct (borrowing from Jane Robert's SETH material) which

represents initial actions that are not part of the larger society and culture,

but which emerge relative to the symbolism of the tropical zodiac framework ---

ie, Pluto into/at tropical Capricorn where the " fit hits the shan " (to mix my

words) in a manner in which the mundane/political world gets totally involved.

 

This is probably why the cyclic charts work so well. No matter what zodiac

measuring tool you use, that event is " that event " at that time, and it

represents its own fiducial point from which one can cast a Sidereal S/R or a

precession-corrected S/R and see the sidereal or universal-intelligence concept

and then the mundane or political results.

 

Dave

[Guest guest]

At 01:42 PM 11/29/2009 +0000, you wrote:

>Therese, you've just made an important point! You said, " But there's no

>doubt that the current financial fiascoes began after Pluto entered

>sidereal Sagittarius ruled by Jupiter--whose mundane significance is Big

>Money. "

>

>My personal inclination is to treat the sidereal (small " s " ) as a

>place/force/idea-construct (borrowing from Jane Robert's SETH material)

>which represents initial actions that are not part of the larger society

>and culture, but which emerge relative to the symbolism of the tropical

>zodiac framework --- ie, Pluto into/at tropical Capricorn where the " fit

>hits the shan " (to mix my words) in a manner in which the

>mundane/political world gets totally involved.

---------

 

Dave, let's see if I understand what you're saying: Do you mean that

initial actions/causes not visible to the public happen in the sidereal

sign cycle, but then are not part of " everyman's " life until a tropical

sign kicks in due to a planetary transit into that sign? In this case,

Pluto into tropical Capricorn. I want to be very clear on your thoughts

before replying to your post.

 

We still have not posted a theory as to why financial havoc would happen

during a Pluto transit in a Saturn ruled sign rather than a sign ruled by

Jupiter.

 

Thanks,

Therese

[Guest guest]

Therese, these " thoughts " are prompted by several seemingly random and separated

coincidences. The intent is to find a possible explanation as to why both the

TZ and SZ adherents see their approach as valid, as well as my scattered

observations of what works and what doesn't.

 

Again, let us frame " sidereal " as star-based and not as " Sidereal " which, for

me, has too much baggage to explain or to include in my discussions.

 

Jim Eshelman, after much discussion, ended up by stating that the universe is,

essentially, sentient and offers a " universal mind " approach to " causing " the

meaning of the signs. These are my words but his explanation is somewhat along

these lines and is recorded on his site, Solunars.

 

As a long time reader of Jane Robert's books, I'm taken by her views and

statements on behalf of Seth that the universe is an " Idea Construct " and that

thought leads to energy and energy leads to physical matter/experience/events.

 

Thirdly, we have to deal with the ancient, mythic development of the original

signs in terms of how they were interpreted THEN and the reliance upon certain

stars as having individual influences that could be, and were, used by

astrologers.

 

The fact that the two zodiacs happened to coincide in 221 AD is irrelevant to

the discussion except that that discussion has led to a definition of a

measuring framework for those ancient signs.

 

WHAT NOW FLOWS FROM THE ABOVE is a far-fetched concept that cyclic conjunctions

(and perhaps quadratures) of outer planet pairings may define the meaning of

developments using the sidereal framework. These developments might be conceived

as the universe's seed concepts or ideas which develop an energy as others pick

up on them and later lead to that idea-energy showing up in our world as

decisions, policies, and actions taken by small groups that have some influence

on the larger world. We can use the Sidereal framework to define those symbolic

interpretations.

 

Those same outer planet conjunctions, quadratures and aspect patterns that were

seen in the Sidereal view are also present in the Tropical view at the same

time. The only thing that is different is when those planets that participated

in the conjunctions, etc. move into new tropical signs and exhibit their

symbolism through those tropical signs. The tropical signs can be taken as

cultural and representative of the wider world's experiences.

 

So, in one sense (following these trains of thought) what happens in space

happens simultaneously no matter what zodiac we use to frame our views of

planetary activity relative to a location/house orientation. However, we all

recognize that conjunctions (and some other aspect combinations) don't seem to

happen predictably with the observed aspect's happening. What is symbolized by

the planets in the sidereal framework might be seen when further aspects happen

in terms of the tropical/cultural framework.

 

So, we have a sidereal early warning or definition of what will emerge and what

underlying purpose it will play in our world. Then we have the con-current and

later views of how it will play out in the open cultural world.

 

All of this seems to me to be a most interesting hypothesis, and it may lead

directly or very indirectly to something useful. At least it seems to be more

than anyone else has postulated. This is about all I have time for right now.

I've got lots and lots of filing and a very big editing task covering the next

few weeks. Dave

[Guest guest]

At 10:36 PM 11/29/2009 +0000, Dave Monroe wrote:

>(...)As a long time reader of Jane Robert's books, I'm taken by her views

>and statements on behalf of Seth that the universe is an " Idea Construct "

>and that thought leads to energy and energy leads to physical

>matter/experience/events...

 

>WHAT NOW FLOWS FROM THE ABOVE is a far-fetched concept that cyclic

>conjunctions (and perhaps quadratures) of outer planet pairings may define

>the meaning of developments using the sidereal framework. These

>developments might be conceived as the universe's seed concepts or ideas

>which develop an energy as others pick up on them and later lead to that

>idea-energy showing up in our world as decisions, policies, and actions

>taken by small groups that have some influence on the larger world. We

>can use the Sidereal framework to define those symbolic interpretations.

>

>Those same outer planet conjunctions, quadratures and aspect patterns that

>were seen in the Sidereal view are also present in the Tropical view at

>the same time. The only thing that is different is when those planets

>that participated in the conjunctions, etc. move into new tropical signs

>and exhibit their symbolism through those tropical signs. The tropical

>signs can be taken as cultural and representative of the wider world's

>experiences.

-----------------

 

Dave, I was hoping for a concise reply, but you gave much more that that. I

know you have priorities now that aren't part of this discussion. So

attempting to summarize what you are saying:

------

The sidereal reflects seed thought tendencies that only manifest as the

wider world's experiences when the planets under consideration enter

tropical signs. (Since sidereal signs always begin earlier than their

underlying tropical signs.)

-------

 

Dave, to convince me you're going to have to present research on this, and

I know that has to wait until your present projects are completed. In the

meantime, and noting Dark Star's commentary on Lehman Bros, I'd like to

post a time line of events from the time Pluto entered sidereal

Sagittarius. To avoid personal bias in listing events, I've simply lifted a

time line from the internet.

 

Pluto permanently entered sidereal Sagittarius in December of 2005.

Pluto permanently entered tropical Capricorn in November of 2008 (three

years later).

 

So what happened during this three year gap? Below we see that Lehman

Brothers was only one domino of many that began to fall in 2006 with the

seeds being planted long before that. We can perhaps say that the seeds of

inequity began to sprout in the public's experience with the sudden housing

decline in 2006. This time period correlates with Pluto's entry in sidereal

Sagittarius.

------------------------

http://www.economicsofcrisis.com/economics_of_crisis/timeline.htm

" 2004-04. The SEC lifts leveraging restrictions.

[see site for previous dates and details of the build-up. The entry above

is the last before 2006 on this particular time line.]

-------------------------

" 2006. Home prices began a rapid decline. This occurred because as

mortgage loan terms changed and interest rates rose, families were no

longer able to afford their homes. The homes went into foreclosure and the

excess supply of homes put downward pressure on home prices. Subprime

mortgage borrowers had been given loans that would increase in interest

rates after an initial period of very low interest rates.

 

Spread of the crisis:

 

" 2007, 02. More than 25 subprime lending firms declare bankruptcy in

February and March, while the largest subprime lender, New Century,

declares bankruptcy in April. This occurs due to increasing defaults on

subprime loans. As interest rates on subprime loans adjusted upwards,

families could not afford to pay the increased payments, and were not able

to refinance their homes because their home value had declined.

 

" 2007, 07. Bear Stearns announces major losses in two of its hedge

funds. This was due to investments in asset-backed securities, which Bear

Stearns pioneered. As subprime loans failed, the asset-backed securities

that were based on the subprime loans also started to fail.

 

" 2007, 08. Global hedge funds and banks reveal major exposure to subprime

problems through holdings of mortgage-backed securities. As it turns out,

many, many banks worldwide held these asset-backed securities based on

subprime loans.

 

" 2007, 09-13. Northern Rock receives emergency funding from the Bank of

England, after which depositors make a run on the bank. Northern Rock

faced a big problem as liquidity was cut off after the subprime crisis

began, and the mortgage lender could not receive loans from institutional

lenders. This was a signal that there was a real liquidity crisis, or

shortage in funding from other banking and investment institutions. [Pluto

at 26 tropical Sag; sidereal 2.5 Sag]

 

" 2008, 01-21. Global stock markets suffer largest fall since September 11,

2001. This was due to fears that the proposed stimulus package in the US

would not be enough to prevent a large recession. The scope of the

financial crisis was just beginning to be revealed. [Pluto at 29+ tropical

Sagittarius, sidereal 5 Sag]

 

" 2008, 01-24. National Association of Realtors shows 2007 had the largest

drop in home sales in 25 years. Excess supply of home inventory places

significant downward pressure on prices, and as foreclosures increased,

people were forced to leave their homes because they could not repay their

loans. Thus there were more and more homes for sale. [Pluto at 29+ trop

Sag/sid 6 Sag]

 

" 2008, 03-14. Bear Stearns is purchased for $2 a share by JPMorgan

Chase. A year earlier share prices had been $170 per share. The problems

were caused by overexposure to the subprime mortgage crisis. JP Morgan

Chase was prodded to purchase Bear Stearns by the US government, since Bear

was on the brink of collapse. [**Pluto at 1 trop Cap; This is the first

timeline entry with Pluto in tropical Capricorn**]

 

" 2008, 09-7. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac are taken over by the US

government. This was because they owned more than $5 trillion of mortgage

backed securities. They therefore had a huge exposure to potential losses

in this market. US taxpayers would be responsible for propping up these

institutions where they needed financial support. It also brought both

Fannie Mae, which was created by Congress during the Great Depression to

help with home ownership, and Freddie Mac, created in 1970 as a competitor

to Fannie Mae, back into the fold of the government after a multi-decade

attempt at privatization.

[**Pluto has retrograded back to 28 tropical Sag**]

 

" 2008, 09-15. Lehman Brothers files for bankruptcy protection. Lehman had

incurred billions of dollars in losses due to the mortgage crisis, and

could not find a buyer. The US government also chose not to bail it out as

an example to other institutions that they were not necessarily going to be

bailed out by the government. This was later seen as a mistake on the part

of the US government, since it created problems throughout the financial

system. [**Pluto at 28.5 tropical Sag**]

 

" 2008, 09-16. US government bails out AIG...[The site above continues the

timeline.]

 

[All during the continued September 08 crisis, Pluto remains in tropical

Sagittarius. Containment of the crisis (according to the time line) began

in October of 2008. Pluto is still in tropical Sag. In late November 2008

in the middle of containment moves Pluto finally enters tropical Capricorn.

From then on we have the even alignment of Pluto is sidereal Sag/tropical Cap.

-------

 

I suppose what I'm attempting to show is that there is no clean break in

events when Pluto enters tropical Capricorn, but there was a definite shift

shortly after Pluto went into sidereal Sagittarius. There are no financial

timeline entries between April of 2004 and 2006 when it became apparent

that the housing market was in serious trouble due to subprime loans made

by irresponsible banks. Thus, the concept of build-up in the sidereal and

manifestation in the tropical (planetary entry into a sign) doesn't apply.

 

For sometime now Dave has been asking astrologers for a basis for sidereal

signs. Should not the planet said to rule a sign have some input into the

equation? in the case of Pluto into sidereal Sagittarius, we have a clear

and concise picture of financial teetering and collapse that's affecting

the world. I don't think that any astrologer would claim that Saturn is the

planet of world finance.

 

This crisis didn't come into the public consciousness until 2006. Pluto

entered sidereal Sagittarius in December of 2005. Jupiter has always been

associated with Sagittarius. We are also seeing mega financial scandals

(downfalls) of the worst players in the world of finance. The emphasis has

shifted from fear of terrorism (sidereal Scorpio) to financial panic and loss.

 

Therese

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

, " dadsnook2000 " <dadsnook wrote:

>

>

> Thirdly, we have to deal with the ancient, mythic development of the original

signs in terms of how they were interpreted THEN and the reliance upon certain

stars as having individual influences that could be, and were, used by

astrologers.

>

I quote from " Babylonian horoscopes " : " Omens based upon the appearances of fixed

stars are known from Enuma Anu Enlil, but no mention is made of fixed star

phases in the horoscopes. The references to stars in horoscopes are confined to

the use of the ecliptical stars as a set of observational reference points. "

Also early Hellenistic sidereal astrologers apparently did not even have a

fiducial star, and their astronomical methods came straight from Chaldea (unlike

Fagan's Egyptian theory).

 

> The fact that the two zodiacs happened to coincide in 221 AD is irrelevant to

the discussion except that that discussion has led to a definition of a

measuring framework for those ancient signs.

>

The astronomical operation involved substraction from the tropical positions. If

the zodiacs then happen to roughly coincide (I don't use Fagan-Bradley) and

there is person of scientific bent who is probably not an astrologer himself and

maybe with a critical/reforming attitude towards astrology in general it's a

short step from there to do away with the substraction and instead give stars

interpretational meanings independently of signs.

[Guest guest]

Hello to cjjohans,

I didn't mean to imply the use of " phase relationships " with fixed stars in any

way --- I can't conceive of any useful way of following that train of thought.

As far as the use of specific fixed stars as a separate usage from any zodiac,

that can be done with Riyal software which provides Phillip Sedgwick's deep

space phenomena listing relative to any chart or zodiac used with that chart.

Dave