Khuda humko aisi khudai na de

[Guest guest]

On a lighter side, may I request someone, if he/she remembers the famous gazal....khuda humko aisi khudai na de, ke apne siva koi aur dikhai na de..." then he/she may please forward a link or text of the gazal, I am attending a party of "khudoos" people tomorrow, I can present them with this.

 

regards,

 

Mouji--- On Thu, 10/8/09, sreesog <sreesog wrote:

sreesog <sreesog Re: Base principles and Schools of astrology Date: Thursday, October 8, 2009, 11:40 PM

 

Dear Manoj ji, It is today that I got some time to sit in a relaxed mood and answer this mail - please forgive the delay.

 

1) Question:

What are the english words for Soumya and Subha? (They are different!) What is your defenition for these words? Answer (Manoj ji): A soumya and shubha are not the same planets. Soumya grahas may or may not become shubha grahas because it would depend on the horoscope. A papa can also be a shubha graha. I had not disagreed to your use of the word but only had said that English language does not necessarily convey the real meaning at times.

Review:

The questions were technical ones about terminology used and not general ones. Even though the above answer will seem correct from an average perspective – from the traditional perspective the above answer is wrong. Correct definition of these terms as per Brihat Jataka is given below –

Subha: Jupiter, Venus, strong Moon, Mercury placed alone or with benefics (i.e. not along with malefics) Soumya: Moon, Mercury, Jupiter, Venus

Please note that whether Moon has strength (Pakshabala) is not considered here to determine whether Moon is soumya or not. Moon and Mercury are always Soumya. But Moon will not be called Subha if it does not have strength (Pakshabala) and Mercury will not be called Subha if it is placed along with malefics. Words are subtle and their meanings differ when used in technical sense in astrology. Refer to quotes such as Reference: "Ksheenenwarka maheepatarka sutaya papaH" etc for clarification. I will provide the definition of other two related words also for clarification. Papa (opposite of Subha) : Mars, Saturn, Sun, Weak Moon (without Pakshabala), Mercury placed along with malefics.. (most scholars add Rahu and Ketu also into this list)

Agneya (opposite of Soumya): Sun, Mars, Saturn, Rahu Ketu. Please note that Weak Moon and Mercury placed along with malefics can become papa, but they can never be Agneya; because Moon and Mercury are soumya planets.

2) Question:

Is it that Asubha and Papa mean the same or are they diffenet? If yes, how?

Answer (Manoj ji):

This question is not answered by Manoj ji. Review:

Asubha and Papa mean the same – there is no difference.

3) Question:

What is the Sanskrit word that you will use for 'functional benefic'?

Answer (Manoj ji):

A functional benefic would be called "tatkalik shubha"

Review:

The above answer is completely wrong. If we have to translate "tatkalik subha" we should better translate it as "temporary benefic" and not "functional benefic". What is it that we mean when we use the words "functional benefic" or "functional malefics"? If a natural benefic is the lord of 6-8-12 we used to call it "functional malefic" – right? What is the special term used to call the lords of 6-8-12 ? Those houses are "Dustanas" (malefic houses) and the lords of those houses are called "Dusthanadhipa" (lords of malefic houses). Thus it is better to translate "functional malefic" as "dusthanadhipa" and not `tatkalika subha". Similarly "functional benefic" is "Susthanadhipa" (lord of benefic houses). It is wrong to use the word "tatkalik subha" for one more reason. What is the definition for the word "tatakalik subha" or "tatkalik mitra"? If any planet is placed in one house, then the other planets placed near to it in 2nd, 3rd, 4th house on one side and 12th, 11th, 10th on the other side are the those planets become temporary relative (one giving beneficial result) to the current planet. Similarly the planets placed on the other 6 signs opposite to it become (or considered as) "tatkalik satru" or "tatkalic papa" (temporary malefic).

4) Question

What is the Sanskrit word that you will use for 'functional malefic'?

Answer (Manoj ji):

a functional benefic would be called "tatkalik ashubha"

Review:

Due to reasons clarified above, this answer is also wrong. Functional malefic should be better translated as "Susthanadhipa" and there is no standard terminology in use such as "tatkalic subha or tatkalic asubha" (check any astrology text). The terms that are in use are "tatkalik bandhu" (temporary relative) and "tatkalic satru" (temporary enemy) which are calculated in an entirely different way (i.e. without considering benefic or malefic houses or the strength of planets). But if we want to be exact, then the truth is that there is no exact English translation IN USE for the word "Dusthanadhipa" (lord of 6-8-12 houses) or Susthanadhipa (lord of houses other than 6-8-12) or the words such as "Tatakalik bandhu" (temporary relative) or "Tatkalik satru" (temporary enemy). Similarly there are no exact translation for the English words "functional benefic" or

"functional malefic" in Sanskrit. Language is for communication – and if we are able to convey the intend that is enough. Whether it is McCauley's English or ignorant Sanskrit is irrelevant. // some how the mail was giving out a message that please don't try to mess with me//

Good that you are sensate enough. The egotic use of the word "McCauley's English" irritated me so much and my mail was a natural response to that. // English does not convey the real meaning of the words. Essence is when you understand the meaning being conveyed a sentence or a word in its proper form.//

Yes, there you seem to understand and we agree with each other. // You say you wish to "test" my knowledge of Sanskrit before you start communicating in those words. Its your wish, please go ahead.//

Testing was not my purpose - but that was a purposeful egotic statement made by me with an intention. My intention was positive due to the following reasons –

 

I wanted to discuss this subject in detail

I wanted to show you the logical pitfall (related to such assumptions) .

// How often have we seen that people do pick up theoretical knowledge whereas they completely lack the practical knowledge of astrology. If I remember, I had given particulars of a chart in one of the mails about 3 or 4 days back but am yet to see any stalwart responding to it.// We are all busy with our own life and it is some part of our spare time that we all spend here. Don't assume that every one (including me) here will read every mail or that everyone will waste their time to answer some chart you posted. For example I never saw that chart or read that mail, or even if I did, I will not be interested in wasting time for that - if not that is something that specially interests me. It is not to attend challenges or to satisfy others that I am present in this forum – but to learn and share knowledge – the little bit I have, that too only in my spare time. I share some of my knowledge with others (they can take it or leave it), and I receive and learn from others; I am no teacher to anyone and don't want to be. I am neither challenger nor receiver – even the question answers are not challenge responses but only knowledge sharing sessions. Occasionally when I feel

like participating in blind chart quizzes or chart readings, then I do, and anyone can check the achieves to verify the same. Me either reaching the correct conclusions or failing to reach the correct conclusion is also no wonder – because I am just like you, not with much difference (and NOT a teacher here, but one friend who would quarrel with you all with a positive intention and sincerity)

// Soumya and Shubha, Ashubha and Papa. Ashubha grahas need to be seen in a chart whereas papa are defined as papa in astrological texts.//

Ha..Ha…Manoj ji, stop this confusion – that is enough trying! J //And by the way, do you think, this combination of natural and functional helps, if so, then please show me a case using them, perhaps it may help in learning it further. //

Of course they are useful in practical astrology and in understanding the quotes provided in ancient astrological classics correctly. The clear understanding of these terms helped the authors of those texts much in codifying those texts using a clear and correct technical terminology. That itself is their primary purpose and benefit. //And kindly elucidate on where was I lacking in understanding the terms.//

I hope I have already did the same.

Note: I know that you are elderly and reputed astrologer – I have full respect towards you. This is just a friendly discussion that should become beneficial to all, so please don't let the ego raise. Love and regards,

Sreenadhancient_indian_ astrology, Manoj Kumar <mouji99

Dear Sreenadh ji,

 

Yes this mail is pending discussion.

 

A soumya and shubha are not the same planets. Soumya grahas may or may not become shubha grahas because it would depend on the horoscope. A papa can also be a shubha graha. I had not disagreed to your use of the word but only had said that english language does not necessarily convey the real meaning at times. * What is the Sanskrit word that you will use for 'functional benefic' that you are using so regularly?

So regularly. Am I writing so regularly? But if the mail is addressed in the tenor that it is then a functional benefic would be called "tatkalik shubha" * What is the Sanskrit word that you will use for 'functional malefic' that you are using so regularly? So regularly. Am I writing so regularly? But if the mail is addressed in the tenor that it is then a functional benefic would be called "tatkalik ashubha"* Similarly what are special Sanskrit words to be used for 'natural benefic' or 'natural malefic'? "Naisargik subha and naisargik papa" * What are the english words for Soumya and Subha? (They are diffent!) What is your defenition for these words? * Is it that Asubha and Papa mean the same or are they diffenet? If yes, how?

Somehow the mail was giving out a message that please dont try to mess with me whereas the purpose of my writing that mail was something different. English does not convey the real meaning of the words. Essence is when you understand the meaning being conveyed a sentence or a word in its proper form. You say you wish to "test" my knowledge of Sanskrit before you start communicating in those words. Its your wish, please go ahead.

 

How often have we seen that people do pick up theoretical knowledge whereas they completely lack the practical knowledge of astrology. If I remember, I had given particulars of a chart in one of the mails about 3 or 4 days back but am yet to see any stalwart responding to it.

 

Soumya and Shubha, Ashubha and Papa. Ashubha grahas need to be seen in a chart whereas papa are defined as papa in astrological texts. And by the way, do you think, this combination of natural and functional helps, if so, then please show me a case using them, perhaps it may help in learning it further.

 

And kindly elucidate on where was I lacking in understanding the terms.

 

regards,

Mouji> --- On Thu, 9/24/09, sreesog sreesog wrote:

Re: Base principles and Schools of astrology Dear Manoj Kumar ji, This mail is still pending to be answered by you. A discussion could become much informative. Love and regards,Sreenadhancient_indian_ astrology, "sreesog" <sreesog wrote:Dear Manoj Kumar ji, Agreed that I am using the word 'benefic' for Subha and 'malefic' for Papa. But if you disagree to that, then you will have to tell me several new words. For example - * What is the Sanskrit word that you will use for 'functional benefic' that you are using so regularly? * What is the Sanskrit word that you will use for 'functional malefic' that you are using so regularly? * Similarly what are special Sanskrit words to be used for 'natural

benefic' or 'natural malefic'? I am well comfortable with such Sanskrit terms and so would ask you ask - * How will you differentiate between (using english words) Agneya graha and Papa? Please give the defenition for both of them as clearly differentiating between them (they are different!) * What are the english words for Soumya and Subha? (They are diffent!) What is your defenition for these words? * Is it that Asubha and Papa mean the same or are they diffenet? If yes, how? If you like the use of Sanskrit words better than the english words in common use, then no issues - BUT use them with understanding! Let me ensure that you understands those sanskrit words better than Mckauley's english - then I will use them. Otherwise that too willnot be intelligible. So let us try from the basics itself! What do you say? Love and regards,Sreenadh> --- In

ancient_indian_ astrology, Manoj Kumar> mouji99@ wrote:> >> > Classics have called them Shubha and Paapa. It is Mckauley's english> which makes them benefic or a malefic whereas in practice you find that> there no outright benefic and no outright malefic and so only both are> required for a normal living, just like a horoscope having 6 shubha and> 6 paapa houses or bhavas.> > Doesnt a Shubha bhava becomes "ashubha" bhava also in chart when> studied in totality.> > regards,> > Mouji