Guest guest Posted October 21, 2009 Report Share Posted October 21, 2009 Dear All, The following is a message I posted in on Mon Jun 11, 2007 6:19 pm. Many of my opinions expressed in that message already changed, but many remain intact. I am forwarding it here since it is informative. Please don't try to crucify me for some of my already changed opinions expressed in that mail - but only take the positive info from it (and leave out the negative). Love and regards, Sreenadh , " Sreenadh " <sreesog wrote: Dear Chandrasekhar ji, Even though I may state that the currently available BPHS is incomplete, I have no doubt in stating that it is a very valuable resource and contains mostly the original slokas of Parasara itself. There was an argument about the same in vedic astrology forum between me and Mohan Jyotishi (possibly Mr Koul), which you too might find useful, and relevent to the context of our discussion. In the debate I was supporting BPHS and Mohan ji questioning its originality. Love, Sreenadh Re: condemning the bible of astrology - Mohan Jyotishi vedic astrology , " Sreenadh " <sreelid@> wrote: Dear Mohan ji, 1) In one of your mails you said that: > There is no manuscript available anywhere in any >library of the world about any BPHS. I will share my knowledge about the details of BPHS manuscripts available in one of the Mss Library in Tamilnadu. There are 2 Mss of P_Hora in Grantha Lipi (Palm leaf) available in Sarsvathi Mahal Library with the commentary of Govinda svamin. The Vyakhya is named Prakatartha dipikam and has 2 parts - Purvartha and Utharartha. Of that only the Mss of Utharartha is available in S_Mahal. Catalog no. 11498 & 11499 (Palm leaf) The Mss is incomplete and the number of Granthas (slokas) contained in the text is 2970. I have the catalog of astrology works Mss available in S_Mahal, which also quotes the starting and ending lines of this Palm leaf Mss. There are 2 more Mss ascribed to Parasara - Purva parasaryam and Vridha Parasarya - available in S_Mahal. I would humbly request you not to make such assertions ('no manuscript available anywhere in any library of the world about any BPHS' etc) without referring at least the catalogs of eminent Mss Libraries. 2) You said that: >Surya Sidhanta itself admits unabashedly that it was >propagated by some " Maya " , which is a Greek name! How you came to know that " Maya " is a Greek name?!! Please clarify. >Babylon was the main cradle of astrology >about 4000 BCE and it was from there that the Greeks >inherited it! About how many Greek books on astrology you know about? That also before Ptolemy? Can you name some of the Greek books that deals with astrology? Please clarify. Except that rubbish constant based (learn the 19 year system of Babylonians) 19 year system what else is there which they can offer? Will you clarify. You speak about " post-Grecho- Chaldean system of astrology coming to India " . Can you speak about any Greek, Chaldean, Babilonian book on astrology? We would be much interested. Please give quotes of the same. We would love to learn greek/Chaldean/Babilonian tounge, if it is for the sake of astrology!! 3) Another question is how you came to know that Parasara of 3000 BC wrote BPHS? BPHS is written by a sage of Parasara Kula who lived around 1400 BC. A quote from the Parasara Samhitha proves this fact. (If you are interested I will supply the sloka) 4) How can anybody say that Parasara followed SuryaSidhanta calculations? Parasara Sidhanta was there - and if and only if we know about astronomy it contained we could say that Parasara followed Suryasidhantha. SuryaSidhanta is an authentic work, and is followed by the astrologers of the Arsha Kulam. i.e. Skanda Hora, Vasishta hora, Kousika Hora, Sounaka hora etc. (By the way I have collected more than 1500 slokas from these lost books from the references available here and there in several authentic works. So please don't try to argue that such texts never existed or the like... If I compile a text containing all those slokas in a well arranged and systematic manner, can you discard all that huge effort with the single simple statement that - " it is a text originated in the 21st centaury " , when the benefits and application of even that part lost wisdom shine like a bright star?) Please remember, the lost knowledge and the number of lost classics can exceed the number of authentic works available today! Be scholarly, compassionate and appreciative towards that Himalayan works. As far as I know 'Skanda Hora' is the first book on predictive astrology and the other books of Arsha Kula are the descendants of it. But except stating that study of the available slokas of Rishi horas reveals this fact, I cannot say anything about the period at which Skanda Hora originated. It is also known as 'Jyothishmathi Upanishad'. As per the reference given by Kaikulangara, each chapter of Skanda Hora ends with the statement 'Skandopanjche Adharva khile Jyothishmathyam upanishadi', meaning 'in the Upanishad called Jyothishmathi by Skanda which is part of Adharva Veda'. Hope this will arouse the interest and enthusiasm of many on the subject. [A Wow to the Keralite tradition of astrology. Here we heard about and aware of the thousands of slokas from Skanda Hora, Brihal prajapathyam, Vasishta Hora, Kousika Hora, Sounaka Hora, Kasyapa Hora, Sooryaruna Samvadam (Sury Jathakam), Narada Samhitha, Garga Hora, Lomasa Samhita, Bhrigu Soothram, Vishnugupta Hora and many more. But never heard about others speaking about them in detail. Except in old books like HoraRethnam (Balabhadra - 10th century), Jathaka_Sara_deepika (Narasimha Daivajna - 17th century), Brihat_Daivanja_Renjana of North India. Accept the fact that many old literary treasures (at least many -thousands of-slokas) are still preserved by the scholars of South India. I would request all to dive deep in to the Mss available in different Mss libraries all over India. A through study of the subject will reveal many more unexplored facts. Even it may cause us to drop our entire perspective on the current day astrology and look in to them in a new light. (the conflict between the use of Vargas and D-charts comes to my mind). Dear Mohan ji, this para is not intended for you, but for the other scholars who are really interested in predictive astrology] 5) Again you says: >Venkateshwar Press, Mumbai, edition/version of " Brihat >Parashari " is much older than Sita Ram Jha's---by >about a hundred years and it has been referred to by >S. B. Dikshit in his " Bhaatiya Jyotish " in 1890 AD. >He has proved it there with all the logic and >reasoning that the so called original Parashari was >not available anywhere since he had not been able to >find it anywhere in any library or market in spite of >his best efforts! I can only feel companionate about such searches! If even I could locate some manuscripts of the same in eminent Mss Lib., what else can I do? 6) In your words: >Alberuni's India also does not refer to any Parashari >though that work refers to every prominent work on >astronomy and astrology like Brihat Jataka, Brihat >Samhita, Khandkhadyaka etc. etc. Did Alberuni mentioned about Skanda-Vasishta-Kousika Horas? How you came to think that a traveler was a complete authority on such subjects? You mean - 'What ever Alberuni not mentioned was non- existent'!! It is an absurd argument!! 7) In your words: >I had asked the honorable members of this forum >that we must delve deeper into the fact as to how the >term " Vedic astrology " was coined since this term did >not exist till at least about mid-fifties of the last >century. I would humbly suggest you to do the same, Since Narada Samhita, Kasyapa hora, Garga Hora etc explicitly state that Astrology is Vedanga. 8) By the way one curious fact comes to my mind. The mathematical calculation system using shells (Kavadi kriya) is present in Kerala for the past hundreds of years, and we use it in plenty in our daily astrological calculations. But no book on the subject was written till date. If I write one on the same today - will you say that Kavadi kriya originated in this 21st centaury and that Kerala people never knew about computers and the like even this 21st centaury?!! Every Sastra is collected and compiled by the people of later generations and amendments and misinterpretations where natural, in that era of hand written palm leaf manuscripts. Please be sincere and scholarly in approaching such subjects. 9) In your words: >There are no Rasis in the Vedas nor in the Vedanga Jyotisha or Atharva Jyotishs >nor Paitamaha sidhanta or Paulisha or Romaka Sidhanta either! Dear friend I won't call Vedanga Jyothisha an authentic text, as it was written by a student of Lagadha Muni with the name Suchi probably in the 14th centaury BC. Don't put so much weight on that text. It is just a compilation of a later date. 10) In your words: > All I am saying is that in the Vedas there are no Rashis but > a seasonal year has been referred to times without > number. Thus when there is no sidereal year in the > Vedas, how can there be any so called nirayana rashichakra! I hope my previous mail had made it clear, by providing proper arguments and evidence, for the fact that the concept of Sidereal zodiac existed in Vedic period. Please read it, and see that your above basic argument itself is baseless. 11) You said: > If someone calls himself a Vedic Hindu and knows the > Vedas actually, he would certainly not to > predictive astrology You argue as if you have a through understanding of Vedas, but even then think that Vedic Rishis where fool enough to follow a Zodiac with Stella tar mentions (Nakshatras) whose boundaries undergo constant modification!! Your absurd understanding of Vedic astrology can never be correct, as the Vedas clearly mentions about the movement of equinox through the fixed stellar mentions, which is possible only with reference to a fixed sidereal zodiac. Don't pour your ignorance on the subject of the difference between the concept of Sidereal Zodiac and Calendar phenomena (Such as Sayana and Nirayana) on the head of Rishis. Can you point out a single reference in Vedas calling a Nakshatra a star or vise versa? They know about the fundamental concept better than you do. Vedas contain prayers and as is there is no need to include predictive astrology in them. But still you can see the glimpses of the fact that predictive astrology existed in those days. For eg Adharva Veda says: " Jyeshtakhnam jatho vichirthoryamasya moolabarhanath paripahyanem " (Adharva vedam) Which means the person born in Jyeshta Nakshatra will cause the death of his elder brother and that the family of the person born in Moola Nakshatra will be ruined. If it is not enough I will quote another instance from Adharva Veda. It says: " Udayagatham Bhagavathi vichirthou nama tarake Tri khethriyasya munchathamadhamam pasamuthamam " Which means now Moola Nakshatra is rising. Let this save us from the cutaneous diseases like tuberculosis and Leprosy. Let it destroy the root of these diseases it self. [There are many other prayers in Vedas, especially Adharva Veda, that proves the existence of predictive astrology in Vedic period. I will quote them in due course.] I will ask you another simple question. Can't you see that Muhoortha becomes important only when the existence and importance of predictive astrology is accepted? If not ask other astrologers, or any learned person who has some know how of such subjects. 12) I will give you more evidence about the arguments that are in support of these " Vedic Jyothishis " in the following mails. But as a last note I should tell one more thing to you: I am not a person who believes in the single origin theory of astrology from Vedas alone. There are 4 main cultural sources in India. 1) Sidhu-Saraswathy civilization 2) Vedic civilization 3) Tantric civilization 4) Draveedian civilization The first 3 of them had supplied in abundance for the development of predictive astrology in India. Of them I value the gifts of the Tantric literature the most. Dive deep into the subject of astrology (and history) and it will become clear to you, why it is so. But I respect the gifts of Vedic civilization to this subject, and is sure that Sidereal Zodiac and predictive astrology existed in Vedic period, from the abundance of evidence provided by Vedas itself. Before trying to pour water on the efforts of those great men (who were sincere to knowledge they acquired), we should try to study the subject in deep, and avoid logical flaws in arguments. By the way, Dear Mohan Ji, I appreciate your efforts on the subject and the real scholarly question put forward by you, which stirred the interest and enthusiasm of many in the subject. If somebody is irritated by such a discussion, it is there trouble and go on with your search and study. With out questioning the established notions, we cannot reach the correct conclusion, and have a correct understanding of the real situation. I respect your efforts. You are supposed to be in the cave of the lions, and you proved that most of them are just paper lions! But beware of the real lions who are causally looking at such arguments with a lazy view, who have much arguments and proofs in store, and who could clearly see the logical errors in your arguments! (There are many of them, just be cautious!) In short my main request to you would be: 'Please avoid logical flaws in arguments and go on fearlessly'. Another request is: Don't go by the secondary references as far as possible. Try to directly search, collect, and study those ancient slokas and study them with an uncorrupted impartial mind. You will see the truth of it. Also remember that there is a vast unexplored resource of 'Grandha Lipi' manuscripts available in South India, and that there might be several original texts in Indian regional scripts available in the Mss libraries of India and abroad. Remember that even 'Pancha Sidhantika' is available to us today only because of the fact that a copy of it was available in the German libraries - Thanks to David Pingree!! Forgive me if you felt that my words were rude at some statements in the above mail. I don't have time to modify it. " Chitrani sakam divi rochanani sareesripani bhuvane jevani Turmisam samatimischamano ahani geerbhiH saparyami nakam " (Adharva Veda) Meaning: Many bright stars are there in the sky. Looking from the earth we feel that they are moving. I worship them with the Mantra prayers. Because I love the holy intellect and knowledge they provide us with. With love and regards, Sreenadh Araha Astrological Research Center Orkkatteri, Vadakara, Kozhikkode Dist, Kerala, India Ph: 9349426091 email: sreelid@ vedic astrology , Mohan Jyotishi <jyotishi231@y ....> wrote: > > > Dear Mr. Sreenadh, > It is a pleasure to see the logical reasoning behind > your presetation. It is the real way of an academic > discussion! > > Now my answers: > I must make it very clear at the outset that these > discussions are to thrash out the points whether there > is predictive astrology in the Vedas or not, and it > has nothing to do with what Mohan or Sreenadh thinks! > Either there is predictive astrology in them or there > is not---that is the point of discussion. > > Now about BPHS: > I have all the three editions of BPHS avaialble in > Northern India viz the original Sitaram Jha edition, > the Nirnay Sagar Press Edition and the English > translation edition. > > But before discussing their merits or demerits, let us > discuss Brihat Jatakam and Brihat Samhita first: > > 1. Varahamihira has not said anywhere that he is > following any Vedic system of predictions. This is a > point worth pondering over sicne every scholar in the > earlier ages harked to the Vedas for thier guidance > and enlightenment of a subject if the Vedas had any > thing to do with that subject. > > 2. Varahamihira has paid fulsome tributes to Yavanas > whom he himself calls mlechhas to the extent that he > wants them to be worshipped like Rishis! He is very > catagorical that " this (jyotish shastra of predictive > astrology as well as calculations) is established in > them (the Yavanas) thoroughly " . in Chapter seven, > verse 1, he has listed his predecessor astrologers as > " Maya, Yavana, Manitha " then in the same verse he > says " Shakti Purvair " . From this, it is evident that > there was a glut of Greek astrologers prior to > Varahamihira and the meaning of this verse is clear > that they were all predecessors to " Shakti " i.e. > Parashara! It also means that Varahamihira is not > referring to Sage Parashara since Varahamihira should > have known that if Veda-Vyasa was supposed to have > existed in Dwapara Yuga, his father could not have > succeeded him after the advent of Greeks into India! > Even if we take it as a " grammatical error " or an > " oversight " on the part of Varahamihira, why did he > not make the verse start from Parashara and then > extoll Maya, Yavana and Manitha and so on! You do not > list a person last of all if you have respect for him > but on the other hand you pay tribute to him before > anybody else! It is thus clear that Varahamihira was > more indebted to " Maya, Yavana and Manitha " than to > Parashara! > > Thus it is possible that there might have been some > work by some " Shakti-Parashara " who could have been of > Parashara gotra or with Parashara sirname, but it > certainly could not have been the Sage Parashara, the > way Varahamihira has shown disrespect to him and > extolled Yavanas! Varahamihira has referred to quite > a few other astroloers also like Garga, Satyacharya, > Vishnugupta and Jeevsharma etc. but nobody is certain > as to what works they had compiled and how independent > of Greek influence they were. > > 3. If this " Parashari " was not available at the time > of Bhatotpala, it means it was not a prominent work > even at that time, much less the " bible " of > astrologers as otherwise it certainly could not have > gone underground! > Bhatotpala also has made it very clear that Yavana > Jataka was avialable in his time! > > 4. The second most surprising question is that if > Parashari had been of sage Parashara and if there had > been predictive astrology in the same way it is being > presented these days in the name of Parashari, > Varahamihira would certainly not have referred to > Mesha, Vrisha etc. Rahsis by their Greek names like > Kriya, Taburi,Jituma,Kulira,Leya, Pathona, Juka, > Karupa, Tauksika, Akokara,Hrdroga,Antyabhya! > Similarly, Dreshkan, Panphar, Apoklima, kendra etc. > etc. are all Greek words. Thus if any Indian system > of astrology was prevailing at the time of > Varahamihira, why did he have to take recourse to all > these Greek words? > > And as everybody knows, these very yogas and words > like apoklima etc. appear in almost all the versions > of Parashari available in the market today! > 5. We find Vimshottari Dasha in all the versions of > BPHS and surprisingly it is conspicuous by its absence > in Varahamihira's works! Nor has he referred to any > ohter system of Dasha-bhuktis of Parashara having been > prevailing at his time. He has referred to Jivsharma > etc. for calculating Ayurdaya but nowehere to > Parashara! > > Thus a question arises that if simple ways of > delineating results by Vimshottari or Ashtottari or > Yogini etc. had been enunciated by Parashara prior to > Varahamihira, why did the latter not take them as it > is and why did he have to give elaborate and > cumbersome calculatons for calculating the same? > > It is clear from these facts that the BHPS we are > having today is not even a ghostly version of the > original " Parashari " . > > 6. Alberuni has devoted a lot of attention to Indian > astrology and astronomy but he has just made a passing > reference to Parashara's astrological work. Though > whenever Alberuni has referred to Sage parashara, he > has qualified his statment with words like " Parashara, > the father of Veda Vyasa " but in the case of > Parashara's book on astrology, he has not done > anything like that! > > 7. Varahamihira in his Brihat Samhita, chapter 11,has > clubbed Parshara with " Gargi, Asit,Devala and several > others " which means that the astrologer Parashara did > not wield any respectful position as compared to > others. If it had been the sage Parashara who had > written Parashari, it could never been have that > disrpesct for him. Besides, in the Samhita, > Varahamihira appears to be referring to Parshara > Samhita, which was also available at Bhatotpala's > time. > > 8. This is what the English translator of current BPHS > has said on page 11: > " After scrutinizing critcally the four manuscripts > (viz. Venkateshwara Press, 2 Sitaram Jha edition, 3 > Devachandra Jha edition and Hindi translation of > Ganesha Datta " ... Then on the same page he says, > " Other versions that I have come across are: 1. Tamil > translation by C.G. Rajan - for only 36 chapters, > without Sanskrit verses > 2. English trnslation by N. N. K.Rao for only 25 > chapters without Sanskrit slokas " . > It measn he also was not aware of any other edition > either on palm leaves or in any other form available > in any library. > Now that you say there is a manuscript available in > Sarsswati Library of Tamil Nadu, I suggest that those > interested in the real BPHS should approach that > library and have it published/printed without delay. > This will give every reader/astrologer a chance to see > the oldest available BPHS. I donot know as to if any > carbon dating etc. of that manuscript has been done, > but being a seeker after truth and facts, I would > request you personally to approach the concerned > people/authorities to do so. It will be a great > service not only to astrologers but even to > non-astrologer scholars since we must ferret out the > facts as early as possible. > Dhanyavad. > Mohan Jyotishi > PS I am sorry I had mis-spelt your name in my earlier > posting. > > > vedic astrology , " Sreenadh " > > <sreelid> wrote: > > > > Dear Mohan, > > It is right that Bhattolpala says that he heard > > about Parasara > > Hora and Parasara Samhita but never seen it. But > > Bhattolpala had > > Parasara Samhita with him! Just because Bhattolpala > > hadn't seen the > > text, should we conclude that Parasara Hora was > > non-existent at that > > time? > > > > [1) Statement 1: Bhattolpala (7th century) never > > saw Parasara Hora. > > 2) Statement 2: Parasara Hora could be > > non-existent at that time. > > 3) Wrong conclusion: Since Bhattolpala hadn't seen > > Parasara > > Hora, 'None' living in the same period heard or seen > > about the text > > and that the text was non-existent at that time. > > Your argument rests on a single premise, and then > > tries to > > generalize that " As Bhattolpala hadn't seen Parasara > > Hora then that > > text was non-extistent at that time. " It is a > > logical error!! Please > > try to see the fact.] > > > > Acharya Balabhadra of 10th Centuary and Kikulangara > > (The scholar > > who wrote Hridyapadha vyakhya of Varahahora. > > Hridyapadha amply > > quotes from Rishi Horas) qotes many slokas from > > Parasara Hora, and > > most of them are available in present day BPH. Can't > > you see that > > this text was available in India even from ancient > > times?! If you > > are not convinced about the existence of manuscript > > and palm leaf > > scripts of BPH in Indian libraries, go to Sarswathi > > Mahal library of > > Tamilnadu, where 2 copies of the palm leaf > > manuscript is still > > available. I can provide you the catalog number all > > the other > > relevant details. It might be possible that there is > > many 'prekshiptha slokas' in BPH available to us > > today, and that the > > text is not in its original form. But don't say that > > BPH was a non- > > existent text or that none of the slokas are > > original. From the > > ancient reference (By Balabhadra and Kikulangara) it > > is pretty clear > > that the BPH available today contains most of the > > slokas qoted by > > these uncorrepted scholers. > > As far as the question 'Whether nirayana astrology > > Vedic/Non- > > vedic?' please see my previous detailed mail on the > > subject, which > > was written as an answer to Koul. > > Love, > > Sreenadh --- End forwarded message --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 21, 2009 Report Share Posted October 21, 2009 Dear Sreenadh Bhai, What are we friends for ? Who will crucify you with lions around you ? ..........as long as you do not do something which is known as a dridha paap karma, you will always have us around you.. A Dridha karma just reminding you means raping a abla naari, or murdering ones Guru, or such...(And you are too nice a guy to do these.. ) By the way I am missing Shri Sunil Nairji. best wishes, Bhaskar. , " sreesog " <sreesog wrote: > > Dear All, > The following is a message I posted in on Mon Jun 11, 2007 6:19 pm. Many of my opinions expressed in that message already changed, but many remain intact. I am forwarding it here since it is informative. Please don't try to crucify me for some of my already changed opinions expressed in that mail - but only take the positive info from it (and leave out the negative). > Love and regards, > Sreenadh > > , " Sreenadh " sreesog@ wrote: > > Dear Chandrasekhar ji, > Even though I may state that the currently available BPHS is > incomplete, I have no doubt in stating that it is a very valuable > resource and contains mostly the original slokas of Parasara itself. > There was an argument about the same in vedic astrology forum between > me and Mohan Jyotishi (possibly Mr Koul), which you too might find > useful, and relevent to the context of our discussion. In the debate > I was supporting BPHS and Mohan ji questioning its originality. > Love, > Sreenadh > > Re: condemning the bible of astrology - Mohan Jyotishi > vedic astrology , " Sreenadh " <sreelid@> > wrote: > > Dear Mohan ji, > 1) In one of your mails you said that: > > There is no manuscript available anywhere in any > >library of the world about any BPHS. > I will share my knowledge about the details of BPHS manuscripts > available in one of the Mss Library in Tamilnadu. > There are 2 Mss of P_Hora in Grantha Lipi (Palm > leaf) available in Sarsvathi Mahal Library with the > commentary of Govinda svamin. The Vyakhya is named > Prakatartha dipikam and has 2 parts - Purvartha and > Utharartha. Of that only the Mss of Utharartha is > available in S_Mahal. > Catalog no. 11498 & 11499 (Palm leaf) > The Mss is incomplete and the number of Granthas > (slokas) contained in the text is 2970. > I have the catalog of astrology works Mss available > in S_Mahal, which also quotes the starting and ending > lines of this Palm leaf Mss. > There are 2 more Mss ascribed to Parasara - Purva > parasaryam and Vridha Parasarya - available in > S_Mahal. > I would humbly request you not to make such > assertions ('no manuscript available anywhere in any > library of the world about any BPHS' etc) without > referring at least the catalogs of eminent Mss > Libraries. > > 2) You said that: > >Surya Sidhanta itself admits unabashedly that it was > >propagated by some " Maya " , which is a Greek name! > How you came to know that " Maya " is a Greek name?!! Please clarify. > >Babylon was the main cradle of astrology > >about 4000 BCE and it was from there that the Greeks > >inherited it! > About how many Greek books on astrology you know about? That also > before Ptolemy? Can you name some of the Greek books that deals with > astrology? Please clarify. Except that rubbish constant based (learn > the 19 year system of Babylonians) 19 year system what else is there > which they can offer? Will you clarify. You speak about " post-Grecho- > Chaldean system of astrology coming to India " . Can you speak about > any > Greek, Chaldean, Babilonian book on astrology? We would be much > interested. Please give quotes of the same. We would love to learn > greek/Chaldean/Babilonian tounge, if it is for the sake of astrology!! > > 3) Another question is how you came to know that Parasara of 3000 BC > wrote BPHS? BPHS is written by a sage of Parasara Kula who lived > around 1400 BC. A quote from the Parasara Samhitha proves this fact. > (If you are interested I will supply the sloka) > > 4) How can anybody say that Parasara followed SuryaSidhanta > calculations? Parasara Sidhanta was there - and if and only if we > know > about astronomy it contained we could say that Parasara followed > Suryasidhantha. SuryaSidhanta is an authentic work, and is followed > by > the astrologers of the Arsha Kulam. i.e. Skanda Hora, Vasishta hora, > Kousika Hora, Sounaka hora etc. (By the way I have collected more > than > 1500 slokas from these lost books from the references available here > and there in several authentic works. So please don't try to argue > that such texts never existed or the like... If I compile a text > containing all those slokas in a well arranged and systematic manner, > can you discard all that huge effort with the single simple statement > that - " it is a text originated in the 21st centaury " , when the > benefits and application of even that part lost wisdom shine like a > bright star?) Please remember, the lost knowledge and the number of > lost classics can exceed the number of authentic works available > today! Be scholarly, compassionate and appreciative towards that > Himalayan works. As far as I know 'Skanda Hora' is the first book on > predictive astrology and the other books of Arsha Kula are the > descendants of it. But except stating that study of the available > slokas of Rishi horas reveals this fact, I cannot say anything about > the period at which Skanda Hora originated. It is also known as > 'Jyothishmathi Upanishad'. As per the reference given by > Kaikulangara, > each chapter of Skanda Hora ends with the statement 'Skandopanjche > Adharva khile Jyothishmathyam upanishadi', meaning 'in the Upanishad > called Jyothishmathi by Skanda which is part of Adharva Veda'. Hope > this will arouse the interest and enthusiasm of many on the subject. > [A Wow to the Keralite tradition of astrology. Here we heard about > and aware of the thousands of slokas from Skanda Hora, Brihal > prajapathyam, Vasishta Hora, Kousika Hora, Sounaka Hora, Kasyapa > Hora, > Sooryaruna Samvadam (Sury Jathakam), Narada Samhitha, Garga Hora, > Lomasa Samhita, Bhrigu Soothram, Vishnugupta Hora and many more. But > never heard about others speaking about them in detail. Except in old > books like HoraRethnam (Balabhadra - 10th century), > Jathaka_Sara_deepika (Narasimha Daivajna - 17th century), > Brihat_Daivanja_Renjana of North India. Accept the fact that many old > literary treasures (at least many -thousands of-slokas) are still > preserved by the scholars of South India. I would request all to dive > deep in to the Mss available in different Mss libraries all over > India. A through study of the subject will reveal many more > unexplored > facts. Even it may cause us to drop our entire perspective on the > current day astrology and look in to them in a new light. (the > conflict between the use of Vargas and D-charts comes to my mind). > Dear Mohan ji, this para is not intended for you, but for the other > scholars who are really interested in predictive astrology] > > 5) Again you says: > >Venkateshwar Press, Mumbai, edition/version of " Brihat > >Parashari " is much older than Sita Ram Jha's---by > >about a hundred years and it has been referred to by > >S. B. Dikshit in his " Bhaatiya Jyotish " in 1890 AD. > >He has proved it there with all the logic and > >reasoning that the so called original Parashari was > >not available anywhere since he had not been able to > >find it anywhere in any library or market in spite of > >his best efforts! > I can only feel companionate about such searches! If even I could > locate some manuscripts of the same in eminent Mss Lib., what else > can > I do? > > 6) In your words: > >Alberuni's India also does not refer to any Parashari > >though that work refers to every prominent work on > >astronomy and astrology like Brihat Jataka, Brihat > >Samhita, Khandkhadyaka etc. etc. > Did Alberuni mentioned about Skanda-Vasishta-Kousika Horas? How you > came to think that a traveler was a complete authority on such > subjects? You mean - 'What ever Alberuni not mentioned was non- > existent'!! It is an absurd argument!! > > 7) In your words: > >I had asked the honorable members of this forum > >that we must delve deeper into the fact as to how the > >term " Vedic astrology " was coined since this term did > >not exist till at least about mid-fifties of the last > >century. > I would humbly suggest you to do the same, Since Narada Samhita, > Kasyapa hora, Garga Hora etc explicitly state that Astrology is > Vedanga. > > 8) By the way one curious fact comes to my mind. The mathematical > calculation system using shells (Kavadi kriya) is present in Kerala > for the past hundreds of years, and we use it in plenty in our daily > astrological calculations. But no book on the subject was written > till > date. If I write one on the same today - will you say that Kavadi > kriya originated in this 21st centaury and that Kerala people never > knew about computers and the like even this 21st centaury?!! Every > Sastra is collected and compiled by the people of later generations > and amendments and misinterpretations where natural, in that era of > hand written palm leaf manuscripts. Please be sincere and scholarly > in > approaching such subjects. > > 9) In your words: > >There are no Rasis in the Vedas nor in the Vedanga Jyotisha or > Atharva Jyotishs > >nor Paitamaha sidhanta or Paulisha or Romaka Sidhanta either! > Dear friend I won't call Vedanga Jyothisha an authentic text, as it > was written by a student of Lagadha Muni with the name Suchi probably > in the 14th centaury BC. Don't put so much weight on that text. It is > just a compilation of a later date. > > 10) In your words: > > All I am saying is that in the Vedas there are no Rashis but > > a seasonal year has been referred to times without > > number. Thus when there is no sidereal year in the > > Vedas, how can there be any so called nirayana rashichakra! > I hope my previous mail had made it clear, by providing proper > arguments and evidence, for the fact that the concept of Sidereal > zodiac existed in Vedic period. Please read it, and see that your > above basic argument itself is baseless. > > 11) You said: > > If someone calls himself a Vedic Hindu and knows the > > Vedas actually, he would certainly not to > > predictive astrology > You argue as if you have a through understanding of Vedas, but even > then think that Vedic Rishis where fool enough to follow a Zodiac > with > Stella tar mentions (Nakshatras) whose boundaries undergo constant > modification!! Your absurd understanding of Vedic astrology can never > be correct, as the Vedas clearly mentions about the movement of > equinox through the fixed stellar mentions, which is possible only > with reference to a fixed sidereal zodiac. Don't pour your ignorance > on the subject of the difference between the concept of Sidereal > Zodiac and Calendar phenomena (Such as Sayana and Nirayana) on the > head of Rishis. Can you point out a single reference in Vedas calling > a Nakshatra a star or vise versa? They know about the fundamental > concept better than you do. Vedas contain prayers and as is there is > no need to include predictive astrology in them. But still you can > see > the glimpses of the fact that predictive astrology existed in those > days. For eg Adharva Veda says: > " Jyeshtakhnam jatho vichirthoryamasya moolabarhanath paripahyanem " > (Adharva vedam) > Which means the person born in Jyeshta Nakshatra will cause the > death > of his elder brother and that the family of the person born in Moola > Nakshatra will be ruined. > If it is not enough I will quote another instance from Adharva Veda. > It says: > " Udayagatham Bhagavathi vichirthou nama tarake > Tri khethriyasya munchathamadhamam pasamuthamam " > Which means now Moola Nakshatra is rising. Let this save us from the > cutaneous diseases like tuberculosis and Leprosy. Let it destroy the > root of these diseases it self. > [There are many other prayers in Vedas, especially Adharva Veda, > that > proves the existence of predictive astrology in Vedic period. I will > quote them in due course.] > I will ask you another simple question. Can't you see that Muhoortha > becomes important only when the existence and importance of > predictive > astrology is accepted? If not ask other astrologers, or any learned > person who has some know how of such subjects. > > > 12) I will give you more evidence about the arguments that are in > support of these " Vedic Jyothishis " in the following mails. But as a > last note I should tell one more thing to you: > I am not a person who believes in the single origin theory of > astrology from Vedas alone. There are 4 main cultural sources in > India. > 1) Sidhu-Saraswathy civilization > 2) Vedic civilization > 3) Tantric civilization > 4) Draveedian civilization > The first 3 of them had supplied in abundance for the development of > predictive astrology in India. Of them I value the gifts of the > Tantric literature the most. Dive deep into the subject of astrology > (and history) and it will become clear to you, why it is so. But I > respect the gifts of Vedic civilization to this subject, and is sure > that Sidereal Zodiac and predictive astrology existed in Vedic > period, > from the abundance of evidence provided by Vedas itself. > Before trying to pour water on the efforts of those great men (who > were sincere to knowledge they acquired), we should try to study the > subject in deep, and avoid logical flaws in arguments. > By the way, Dear Mohan Ji, I appreciate your efforts on the subject > and the real scholarly question put forward by you, which stirred the > interest and enthusiasm of many in the subject. If somebody is > irritated by such a discussion, it is there trouble and go on with > your search and study. With out questioning the established notions, > we cannot reach the correct conclusion, and have a correct > understanding of the real situation. I respect your efforts. > You are supposed to be in the cave of the lions, and you proved > that > most of them are just paper lions! But beware of the real lions who > are causally looking at such arguments with a lazy view, who have > much > arguments and proofs in store, and who could clearly see the logical > errors in your arguments! (There are many of them, just be cautious!) > In short my main request to you would be: 'Please avoid logical > flaws in arguments and go on fearlessly'. > Another request is: Don't go by the secondary references as far as > possible. Try to directly search, collect, and study those ancient > slokas and study them with an uncorrupted impartial mind. You will > see > the truth of it. > Also remember that there is a vast unexplored resource of 'Grandha > Lipi' manuscripts available in South India, and that there might be > several original texts in Indian regional scripts available in the > Mss > libraries of India and abroad. Remember that even 'Pancha Sidhantika' > is available to us today only because of the fact that a copy of it > was available in the German libraries - Thanks to David Pingree!! > Forgive me if you felt that my words were rude at some statements in > the above mail. I don't have time to modify it. > " Chitrani sakam divi rochanani sareesripani bhuvane jevani > Turmisam samatimischamano ahani geerbhiH saparyami nakam " (Adharva > Veda) > Meaning: Many bright stars are there in the sky. Looking from the > earth we feel that they are moving. I worship them with the Mantra > prayers. Because I love the holy intellect and knowledge they provide > us with. > > With love and regards, > > Sreenadh > Araha Astrological Research Center > Orkkatteri, Vadakara, > Kozhikkode Dist, Kerala, India > Ph: 9349426091 > email: sreelid@ > vedic astrology , Mohan Jyotishi jyotishi231@y > ...> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Mr. Sreenadh, > > It is a pleasure to see the logical reasoning behind > > your presetation. It is the real way of an academic > > discussion! > > > > Now my answers: > > I must make it very clear at the outset that these > > discussions are to thrash out the points whether there > > is predictive astrology in the Vedas or not, and it > > has nothing to do with what Mohan or Sreenadh thinks! > > Either there is predictive astrology in them or there > > is not---that is the point of discussion. > > > > Now about BPHS: > > I have all the three editions of BPHS avaialble in > > Northern India viz the original Sitaram Jha edition, > > the Nirnay Sagar Press Edition and the English > > translation edition. > > > > But before discussing their merits or demerits, let us > > discuss Brihat Jatakam and Brihat Samhita first: > > > > 1. Varahamihira has not said anywhere that he is > > following any Vedic system of predictions. This is a > > point worth pondering over sicne every scholar in the > > earlier ages harked to the Vedas for thier guidance > > and enlightenment of a subject if the Vedas had any > > thing to do with that subject. > > > > 2. Varahamihira has paid fulsome tributes to Yavanas > > whom he himself calls mlechhas to the extent that he > > wants them to be worshipped like Rishis! He is very > > catagorical that " this (jyotish shastra of predictive > > astrology as well as calculations) is established in > > them (the Yavanas) thoroughly " . in Chapter seven, > > verse 1, he has listed his predecessor astrologers as > > " Maya, Yavana, Manitha " then in the same verse he > > says " Shakti Purvair " . From this, it is evident that > > there was a glut of Greek astrologers prior to > > Varahamihira and the meaning of this verse is clear > > that they were all predecessors to " Shakti " i.e. > > Parashara! It also means that Varahamihira is not > > referring to Sage Parashara since Varahamihira should > > have known that if Veda-Vyasa was supposed to have > > existed in Dwapara Yuga, his father could not have > > succeeded him after the advent of Greeks into India! > > Even if we take it as a " grammatical error " or an > > " oversight " on the part of Varahamihira, why did he > > not make the verse start from Parashara and then > > extoll Maya, Yavana and Manitha and so on! You do not > > list a person last of all if you have respect for him > > but on the other hand you pay tribute to him before > > anybody else! It is thus clear that Varahamihira was > > more indebted to " Maya, Yavana and Manitha " than to > > Parashara! > > > > Thus it is possible that there might have been some > > work by some " Shakti-Parashara " who could have been of > > Parashara gotra or with Parashara sirname, but it > > certainly could not have been the Sage Parashara, the > > way Varahamihira has shown disrespect to him and > > extolled Yavanas! Varahamihira has referred to quite > > a few other astroloers also like Garga, Satyacharya, > > Vishnugupta and Jeevsharma etc. but nobody is certain > > as to what works they had compiled and how independent > > of Greek influence they were. > > > > 3. If this " Parashari " was not available at the time > > of Bhatotpala, it means it was not a prominent work > > even at that time, much less the " bible " of > > astrologers as otherwise it certainly could not have > > gone underground! > > Bhatotpala also has made it very clear that Yavana > > Jataka was avialable in his time! > > > > 4. The second most surprising question is that if > > Parashari had been of sage Parashara and if there had > > been predictive astrology in the same way it is being > > presented these days in the name of Parashari, > > Varahamihira would certainly not have referred to > > Mesha, Vrisha etc. Rahsis by their Greek names like > > Kriya, Taburi,Jituma,Kulira,Leya, Pathona, Juka, > > Karupa, Tauksika, Akokara,Hrdroga,Antyabhya! > > Similarly, Dreshkan, Panphar, Apoklima, kendra etc. > > etc. are all Greek words. Thus if any Indian system > > of astrology was prevailing at the time of > > Varahamihira, why did he have to take recourse to all > > these Greek words? > > > > And as everybody knows, these very yogas and words > > like apoklima etc. appear in almost all the versions > > of Parashari available in the market today! > > 5. We find Vimshottari Dasha in all the versions of > > BPHS and surprisingly it is conspicuous by its absence > > in Varahamihira's works! Nor has he referred to any > > ohter system of Dasha-bhuktis of Parashara having been > > prevailing at his time. He has referred to Jivsharma > > etc. for calculating Ayurdaya but nowehere to > > Parashara! > > > > Thus a question arises that if simple ways of > > delineating results by Vimshottari or Ashtottari or > > Yogini etc. had been enunciated by Parashara prior to > > Varahamihira, why did the latter not take them as it > > is and why did he have to give elaborate and > > cumbersome calculatons for calculating the same? > > > > It is clear from these facts that the BHPS we are > > having today is not even a ghostly version of the > > original " Parashari " . > > > > 6. Alberuni has devoted a lot of attention to Indian > > astrology and astronomy but he has just made a passing > > reference to Parashara's astrological work. Though > > whenever Alberuni has referred to Sage parashara, he > > has qualified his statment with words like " Parashara, > > the father of Veda Vyasa " but in the case of > > Parashara's book on astrology, he has not done > > anything like that! > > > > 7. Varahamihira in his Brihat Samhita, chapter 11,has > > clubbed Parshara with " Gargi, Asit,Devala and several > > others " which means that the astrologer Parashara did > > not wield any respectful position as compared to > > others. If it had been the sage Parashara who had > > written Parashari, it could never been have that > > disrpesct for him. Besides, in the Samhita, > > Varahamihira appears to be referring to Parshara > > Samhita, which was also available at Bhatotpala's > > time. > > > > 8. This is what the English translator of current BPHS > > has said on page 11: > > " After scrutinizing critcally the four manuscripts > > (viz. Venkateshwara Press, 2 Sitaram Jha edition, 3 > > Devachandra Jha edition and Hindi translation of > > Ganesha Datta " ... Then on the same page he says, > > " Other versions that I have come across are: 1. Tamil > > translation by C.G. Rajan - for only 36 chapters, > > without Sanskrit verses > > 2. English trnslation by N. N. K.Rao for only 25 > > chapters without Sanskrit slokas " . > > It measn he also was not aware of any other edition > > either on palm leaves or in any other form available > > in any library. > > Now that you say there is a manuscript available in > > Sarsswati Library of Tamil Nadu, I suggest that those > > interested in the real BPHS should approach that > > library and have it published/printed without delay. > > This will give every reader/astrologer a chance to see > > the oldest available BPHS. I donot know as to if any > > carbon dating etc. of that manuscript has been done, > > but being a seeker after truth and facts, I would > > request you personally to approach the concerned > > people/authorities to do so. It will be a great > > service not only to astrologers but even to > > non-astrologer scholars since we must ferret out the > > facts as early as possible. > > Dhanyavad. > > Mohan Jyotishi > > PS I am sorry I had mis-spelt your name in my earlier > > posting. > > > > > vedic astrology , " Sreenadh " > > > sreelid wrote: > > > > > > Dear Mohan, > > > It is right that Bhattolpala says that he heard > > > about Parasara > > > Hora and Parasara Samhita but never seen it. But > > > Bhattolpala had > > > Parasara Samhita with him! Just because Bhattolpala > > > hadn't seen the > > > text, should we conclude that Parasara Hora was > > > non-existent at that > > > time? > > > > > > [1) Statement 1: Bhattolpala (7th century) never > > > saw Parasara Hora. > > > 2) Statement 2: Parasara Hora could be > > > non-existent at that time. > > > 3) Wrong conclusion: Since Bhattolpala hadn't seen > > > Parasara > > > Hora, 'None' living in the same period heard or seen > > > about the text > > > and that the text was non-existent at that time. > > > Your argument rests on a single premise, and then > > > tries to > > > generalize that " As Bhattolpala hadn't seen Parasara > > > Hora then that > > > text was non-extistent at that time. " It is a > > > logical error!! Please > > > try to see the fact.] > > > > > > Acharya Balabhadra of 10th Centuary and Kikulangara > > > (The scholar > > > who wrote Hridyapadha vyakhya of Varahahora. > > > Hridyapadha amply > > > quotes from Rishi Horas) qotes many slokas from > > > Parasara Hora, and > > > most of them are available in present day BPH. Can't > > > you see that > > > this text was available in India even from ancient > > > times?! If you > > > are not convinced about the existence of manuscript > > > and palm leaf > > > scripts of BPH in Indian libraries, go to Sarswathi > > > Mahal library of > > > Tamilnadu, where 2 copies of the palm leaf > > > manuscript is still > > > available. I can provide you the catalog number all > > > the other > > > relevant details. It might be possible that there is > > > many 'prekshiptha slokas' in BPH available to us > > > today, and that the > > > text is not in its original form. But don't say that > > > BPH was a non- > > > existent text or that none of the slokas are > > > original. From the > > > ancient reference (By Balabhadra and Kikulangara) it > > > is pretty clear > > > that the BPH available today contains most of the > > > slokas qoted by > > > these uncorrepted scholers. > > > As far as the question 'Whether nirayana astrology > > > Vedic/Non- > > > vedic?' please see my previous detailed mail on the > > > subject, which > > > was written as an answer to Koul. > > > Love, > > > Sreenadh > > --- End forwarded message --- > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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