Guest guest Posted November 1, 2009 Report Share Posted November 1, 2009 Dear Sreenadhji,I think Lagna also means time. Also see the derived words like Samlagna, whch has absolutely no direct connection with Rashi. Lagna shows the connection between the birth time with the Sun's rising in a particular Rashi. That is why when the time of the birth coincides with the Sun's rising in a particular Rashi that rashi becomes the lagna. This way by using the term lagna one can distinguish between the Rashi in which the Moon can stay for about two and a half days and the Rashi where the Sun can stay for only two hours, in the geocentric model and the latter came to be called lagna, ie location of the Sun in a Rashi at the time of birth. To my mind the Balakanda uses the Lagna and Abhudite Ravau as synonymous.Similarly kindly consider that the word Hora could have come from combined word for day (Ahah) and night (Ratra) ie Ahoratra. Lagna is also connected with Hora as an indicator of the time (Lagna) of the day (ahoratra) in which the birth time is recorded. The length of Ahoratra is equal to about half of that of the stay of the Moon in a rashi.As regards the possibility of the origin of the Agama culture in the central asia the eminent Sanskrit scholar and linguist, Prof. Sukumar Sen studied the origin of the Kubjika Tantra in that light and found the possibility of some connection with the Sakas but kindly remember that sakas originated in India, if you see the ancient epics.However I am open to see your complete interpretion of Lord Rama's and Bharata's birth and that of the twins with your alternative interpretation of the term lagna, using the relevant verses of the Balakanda.Regards,Sunil K. Bhattacharjya--- On Sat, 10/31/09, sreesog <sreesog wrote:sreesog <sreesog Re: Laksmana's lagna Date: Saturday, October 31, 2009, 1:48 AM Dear Sunil Bhattacharjya ji, NUMEROUS ancient texts use the word "Lagna" to mean SIGN only and NOT to mean Ascendant. Thus possibly from a historical perspective the original meaning of the word 'Lagna' was Sign and NOT ascendant. The meaning 'Ascendant' must have been ascribed to this word later only. Or in other word the meaning of the word 'Lagna' as ascendant is an abbreviation of the word 'Udaya Lagna' (Rising sign). Thus as per ancient terminology - Lagna = Sign Udaya Lagna = Rising sign or Ascendant Using the word simply 'Lagna' to refer to Ascendant must be a later day development in the history of astrology. Even today many people and books use the word Lagna to refer to Signs. i.e. The original meaning of the word 'Lagna' is NOT lost yet, and Lagna actually means SIGN. Hora is another word that underwent such a meaning confusion. Brihat Jataka states - "Horeti lagnam, bhavanasya chartham" (The word 'Hora' has two meanings - Sign, and half of sign). Please note that even in that quote the word Lagna is used to mean Sign and NOT ascendent. Astrology is also known as 'Hora Sastra' (Ancient knowledge branch - advice - that deals with Signs). Ofcourse the words Hora and Drekkana must have a history older than or as old as that of Signs. Rasi (Signs) = 12 part division of zodiac (This word could have originated in anywhere - possibly in some Agama culture in central asia) Hora = 24 part division of zodiac (could have originated in greek; the original indian word must have been something else; anyway the meaning of this word was different for greeks and indians) Drekkana = 36 part division of zodiac (could have originated in Egypt; the original indian word could have been something else; anyway the meaning of this word is same for all cultures) Please note that I am NOT saying that the concept of Hora (half of sign) or Drekkana (1/3rd of sign) originated outside India, but just pointing to the fact that these words could have an outside indian connection. The better Sanskrit words for them could have been - * Dwi-bhaga = 1/2th of sign * Tri-bhaga = 1/3rd of sign Or considering that it is the word "Amsa" that is associated with Chaturtha-amsa, Panchama-amsa, Navama-amsa etc, the other words that could have been used were - * Dwi-amsa = 1/2th of sign * Tri-amsa = 1/3rd of sign But true, no such use are seen anywhere in any ancient available astrological texts. This possibly points to the fact that these words "Hora" and "Drekkana" are much much older than those texts itself, and finds its origin and dates back to the pre-historic period of origin of astrology. Anyway, coming back to the use of the word "Lagna" in Valmiki Ramayana, I am of the opinion that, Valmiki uses the word "Lagna" just to mean "Sign" and NOT Ascendant. Valmiki must had been using this word in its then prevailing original meaning (i.e. Sign) and NOT in the modern meaning that we ascribe to it - i.e. Asc. I hope this could be helpful. Love and regards, Sreenadh ancient_indian_ astrology, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote: > > Dear Gopal Krishna Goyelji, > > I was thinking over the meaning of the verse mentioning the birth of the twins as to why the word "Kuleera" was used even though the word "Karkata" was used to describe the Lagna of Lord Rama and also why the wording "Abhyudite ravau" was used in place of using the word "Lagna" straightway. It appears that to avoid repeation of the same word/ wording the author used alternate equivalent expressions to tell us about thye birth of the twins. This shows that the author was concerned about the beauty of the expressions and a repeatition could have affected the beauty. Yes. Laksmana was born when the sun was rising in Kuleera ie in the Karkata Lagna. This means the twins were born one day after the birth of Lord Rama and that too in the afternoon. > > Regards, > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 1, 2009 Report Share Posted November 1, 2009 Pranams,M/s Sreenadhji,Sunil Bhattacharjya ji ,One of the earlier Tamil text says Lagna and Soorya are one and the same.The "Lagna" in horoscope is a point at a given moment of time caused by Soorya on account of the daily rotation(rotation:turning on its axis)of our Earth.The Sun in a horoscope is the Soorya's position at a given moment of time on account of the Earth's Revolution(revolution: moving in a circular course causing 12 months).Regards/Dhananjayan--- On Sun, 1/11/09, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya wrote:Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjyaRe: Re: Laksmana's lagna Date: Sunday, 1 November, 2009, 3:53 AM Dear Sreenadhji,I think Lagna also means time. Also see the derived words like Samlagna, whch has absolutely no direct connection with Rashi. Lagna shows the connection between the birth time with the Sun's rising in a particular Rashi. That is why when the time of the birth coincides with the Sun's rising in a particular Rashi that rashi becomes the lagna. This way by using the term lagna one can distinguish between the Rashi in which the Moon can stay for about two and a half days and the Rashi where the Sun can stay for only two hours, in the geocentric model and the latter came to be called lagna, ie location of the Sun in a Rashi at the time of birth. To my mind the Balakanda uses the Lagna and Abhudite Ravau as synonymous.Similarly kindly consider that the word Hora could have come from combined word for day (Ahah) and night (Ratra) ie Ahoratra. Lagna is also connected with Hora as an indicator of the time (Lagna) of the day (ahoratra) in which the birth time is recorded. The length of Ahoratra is equal to about half of that of the stay of the Moon in a rashi.As regards the possibility of the origin of the Agama culture in the central asia the eminent Sanskrit scholar and linguist, Prof. Sukumar Sen studied the origin of the Kubjika Tantra in that light and found the possibility of some connection with the Sakas but kindly remember that sakas originated in India, if you see the ancient epics.However I am open to see your complete interpretion of Lord Rama's and Bharata's birth and that of the twins with your alternative interpretation of the term lagna, using the relevant verses of the Balakanda.Regards,Sunil K. Bhattacharjya--- On Sat, 10/31/09, sreesog <sreesog > wrote:sreesog <sreesog >[ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Laksmana's lagnaancient_indian_ astrologySaturday, October 31, 2009, 1:48 AM Dear Sunil Bhattacharjya ji, NUMEROUS ancient texts use the word "Lagna" to mean SIGN only and NOT to mean Ascendant. Thus possibly from a historical perspective the original meaning of the word 'Lagna' was Sign and NOT ascendant. The meaning 'Ascendant' must have been ascribed to this word later only. Or in other word the meaning of the word 'Lagna' as ascendant is an abbreviation of the word 'Udaya Lagna' (Rising sign). Thus as per ancient terminology - Lagna = Sign Udaya Lagna = Rising sign or Ascendant Using the word simply 'Lagna' to refer to Ascendant must be a later day development in the history of astrology. Even today many people and books use the word Lagna to refer to Signs. i.e. The original meaning of the word 'Lagna' is NOT lost yet, and Lagna actually means SIGN. Hora is another word that underwent such a meaning confusion. Brihat Jataka states - "Horeti lagnam, bhavanasya chartham" (The word 'Hora' has two meanings - Sign, and half of sign). Please note that even in that quote the word Lagna is used to mean Sign and NOT ascendent. Astrology is also known as 'Hora Sastra' (Ancient knowledge branch - advice - that deals with Signs). Ofcourse the words Hora and Drekkana must have a history older than or as old as that of Signs. Rasi (Signs) = 12 part division of zodiac (This word could have originated in anywhere - possibly in some Agama culture in central asia) Hora = 24 part division of zodiac (could have originated in greek; the original indian word must have been something else; anyway the meaning of this word was different for greeks and indians) Drekkana = 36 part division of zodiac (could have originated in Egypt; the original indian word could have been something else; anyway the meaning of this word is same for all cultures) Please note that I am NOT saying that the concept of Hora (half of sign) or Drekkana (1/3rd of sign) originated outside India, but just pointing to the fact that these words could have an outside indian connection. The better Sanskrit words for them could have been - * Dwi-bhaga = 1/2th of sign * Tri-bhaga = 1/3rd of sign Or considering that it is the word "Amsa" that is associated with Chaturtha-amsa, Panchama-amsa, Navama-amsa etc, the other words that could have been used were - * Dwi-amsa = 1/2th of sign * Tri-amsa = 1/3rd of sign But true, no such use are seen anywhere in any ancient available astrological texts. This possibly points to the fact that these words "Hora" and "Drekkana" are much much older than those texts itself, and finds its origin and dates back to the pre-historic period of origin of astrology. Anyway, coming back to the use of the word "Lagna" in Valmiki Ramayana, I am of the opinion that, Valmiki uses the word "Lagna" just to mean "Sign" and NOT Ascendant. Valmiki must had been using this word in its then prevailing original meaning (i.e. Sign) and NOT in the modern meaning that we ascribe to it - i.e. Asc. I hope this could be helpful. Love and regards, Sreenadh ancient_indian_ astrology, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote: > > Dear Gopal Krishna Goyelji, > > I was thinking over the meaning of the verse mentioning the birth of the twins as to why the word "Kuleera" was used even though the word "Karkata" was used to describe the Lagna of Lord Rama and also why the wording "Abhyudite ravau" was used in place of using the word "Lagna" straightway. It appears that to avoid repeation of the same word/ wording the author used alternate equivalent expressions to tell us about thye birth of the twins. This shows that the author was concerned about the beauty of the expressions and a repeatition could have affected the beauty. Yes. Laksmana was born when the sun was rising in Kuleera ie in the Karkata Lagna. This means the twins were born one day after the birth of Lord Rama and that too in the afternoon. > > Regards, > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya New Email names for you! 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Guest guest Posted November 1, 2009 Report Share Posted November 1, 2009 --- On Sun, 1/11/09, Dhananjayan Brahma <abhanaya wrote:Dhananjayan Brahma <abhanayaRe: Re: Laksmana's lagna Date: Sunday, 1 November, 2009, 7:37 AM Pranams,M/s Sreenadhji,Sunil Bhattacharjya ji ,One of the earlier Tamil text says Lagna and Soorya are one and the same.The "Lagna" in horoscope is a point at a given moment of time caused by Soorya on account of the daily rotation(rotation:turning on its axis)of our Earth.The Sun in a horoscope is the Soorya's position at a given moment of time on account of the Earth's Revolution(revoluti on: moving in a circular course causing 12 months).Regards/Dhananjayan--- On Sun, 1/11/09, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya @> wrote:Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya @>Re: [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Laksmana's lagnaancient_indian_ astrologySunday, 1 November, 2009, 3:53 AM Dear Sreenadhji,I think Lagna also means time. Also see the derived words like Samlagna, whch has absolutely no direct connection with Rashi. Lagna shows the connection between the birth time with the Sun's rising in a particular Rashi. That is why when the time of the birth coincides with the Sun's rising in a particular Rashi that rashi becomes the lagna. This way by using the term lagna one can distinguish between the Rashi in which the Moon can stay for about two and a half days and the Rashi where the Sun can stay for only two hours, in the geocentric model and the latter came to be called lagna, ie location of the Sun in a Rashi at the time of birth. To my mind the Balakanda uses the Lagna and Abhudite Ravau as synonymous.Similarly kindly consider that the word Hora could have come from combined word for day (Ahah) and night (Ratra) ie Ahoratra. Lagna is also connected with Hora as an indicator of the time (Lagna) of the day (ahoratra) in which the birth time is recorded. The length of Ahoratra is equal to about half of that of the stay of the Moon in a rashi.As regards the possibility of the origin of the Agama culture in the central asia the eminent Sanskrit scholar and linguist, Prof. Sukumar Sen studied the origin of the Kubjika Tantra in that light and found the possibility of some connection with the Sakas but kindly remember that sakas originated in India, if you see the ancient epics.However I am open to see your complete interpretion of Lord Rama's and Bharata's birth and that of the twins with your alternative interpretation of the term lagna, using the relevant verses of the Balakanda.Regards,Sunil K. Bhattacharjya--- On Sat, 10/31/09, sreesog <sreesog > wrote:sreesog <sreesog >[ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Laksmana's lagnaancient_indian_ astrologySaturday, October 31, 2009, 1:48 AM Dear Sunil Bhattacharjya ji, NUMEROUS ancient texts use the word "Lagna" to mean SIGN only and NOT to mean Ascendant. Thus possibly from a historical perspective the original meaning of the word 'Lagna' was Sign and NOT ascendant. The meaning 'Ascendant' must have been ascribed to this word later only. Or in other word the meaning of the word 'Lagna' as ascendant is an abbreviation of the word 'Udaya Lagna' (Rising sign). Thus as per ancient terminology - Lagna = Sign Udaya Lagna = Rising sign or Ascendant Using the word simply 'Lagna' to refer to Ascendant must be a later day development in the history of astrology. Even today many people and books use the word Lagna to refer to Signs. i.e. The original meaning of the word 'Lagna' is NOT lost yet, and Lagna actually means SIGN. Hora is another word that underwent such a meaning confusion. Brihat Jataka states - "Horeti lagnam, bhavanasya chartham" (The word 'Hora' has two meanings - Sign, and half of sign). Please note that even in that quote the word Lagna is used to mean Sign and NOT ascendent. Astrology is also known as 'Hora Sastra' (Ancient knowledge branch - advice - that deals with Signs). Ofcourse the words Hora and Drekkana must have a history older than or as old as that of Signs. Rasi (Signs) = 12 part division of zodiac (This word could have originated in anywhere - possibly in some Agama culture in central asia) Hora = 24 part division of zodiac (could have originated in greek; the original indian word must have been something else; anyway the meaning of this word was different for greeks and indians) Drekkana = 36 part division of zodiac (could have originated in Egypt; the original indian word could have been something else; anyway the meaning of this word is same for all cultures) Please note that I am NOT saying that the concept of Hora (half of sign) or Drekkana (1/3rd of sign) originated outside India, but just pointing to the fact that these words could have an outside indian connection. The better Sanskrit words for them could have been - * Dwi-bhaga = 1/2th of sign * Tri-bhaga = 1/3rd of sign Or considering that it is the word "Amsa" that is associated with Chaturtha-amsa, Panchama-amsa, Navama-amsa etc, the other words that could have been used were - * Dwi-amsa = 1/2th of sign * Tri-amsa = 1/3rd of sign But true, no such use are seen anywhere in any ancient available astrological texts. This possibly points to the fact that these words "Hora" and "Drekkana" are much much older than those texts itself, and finds its origin and dates back to the pre-historic period of origin of astrology. Anyway, coming back to the use of the word "Lagna" in Valmiki Ramayana, I am of the opinion that, Valmiki uses the word "Lagna" just to mean "Sign" and NOT Ascendant. Valmiki must had been using this word in its then prevailing original meaning (i.e. Sign) and NOT in the modern meaning that we ascribe to it - i.e. Asc. I hope this could be helpful. Love and regards, Sreenadh ancient_indian_ astrology, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote: > > Dear Gopal Krishna Goyelji, > > I was thinking over the meaning of the verse mentioning the birth of the twins as to why the word "Kuleera" was used even though the word "Karkata" was used to describe the Lagna of Lord Rama and also why the wording "Abhyudite ravau" was used in place of using the word "Lagna" straightway. It appears that to avoid repeation of the same word/ wording the author used alternate equivalent expressions to tell us about thye birth of the twins. This shows that the author was concerned about the beauty of the expressions and a repeatition could have affected the beauty. Yes. Laksmana was born when the sun was rising in Kuleera ie in the Karkata Lagna. This means the twins were born one day after the birth of Lord Rama and that too in the afternoon. > > Regards, > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya New Email names for you! 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Guest guest Posted November 2, 2009 Report Share Posted November 2, 2009 Dear Sunil Bhattachajya ji, As I could understand on the basis of our discussions and my independent study of verses in Valmiki Ramayana of Gita press edition : 1. Lord Rama was born in Rising ascending sign of Cancer with Moon ( in Punarvasu ) and Jupiter. Sun should be either in Aries or Pisces Signs.One can not be sure as scriptures are not clear about the counting of Lunar tithis in that era . (I do not know up to what extent you agree with the placement of Sun in Lord's nativity.). It is puranic injunction that all incarnations of Lord Vishnu should have Moon in rising sign as a rule. 2 " Abhyudite ravau " is understood by me that after SUN-RISE NEXT day after the birth of Lord Shri Rama and qualify all the three brothers. 3, a.Consequently , Bharat was born after Sun rise , in the morning hours , in rising sign Pisces with SUN.And in Pushya makshatra. 3b. If " Abhyudite ravau " is only applicable to Lakshaman and Shatrughan. in that case Bharat was born before Sun -rise in Brahama Mahurta in Pisces Lagna , Sun may be in Lagna or 2H. 4. As you say that Lakshamana was born next day in NOON ,The placement of Sun will be in same sign as in Lord Rama's chart, as Sun moves only one degree in one day.Under these circumstances , the word " Kuleera " can only mean that both the twins were born in Cancer Lagna with Jupiter and Moon ( in Aslesha nakshtra.). 5 The words " Kuleera " and " Abhyudite ravau " are two be considered seperately and pointing out different aspects at birth time. Regards, G. K. Goel sunil_bhattacharjya Sat, 31 Oct 2009 01:17:03 -0700 Laksmana's lagna Dear Gopal Krishna Goyelji, I was thinking over the meaning of the verse mentioning the birth of the twins as to why the word " Kuleera " was used even though the word " Karkata " was used to describe the Lagna of Lord Rama and also why the wording " Abhyudite ravau " was used in place of using the word " Lagna " straightway. It appears that to avoid repeation of the same word/ wording the author used alternate equivalent expressions to tell us about thye birth of the twins. This shows that the author was concerned about the beauty of the expressions and a repeatition could have affected the beauty. Yes. Laksmana was born when the sun was rising in Kuleera ie in the Karkata Lagna. This means the twins were born one day after the birth of Lord Rama and that too in the afternoon. Regards, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya --- On Fri, 10/30/09, gopal krishna goel <g.k.goel wrote: gopal krishna goel <g.k.goel RE: Re: Mal Masa why bad for muhurtha ? Friday, October 30, 2009, 5:35 AM Dear Sreenadh ji , You may be right. As far as Adhi and Ksheya Lunar month there is no difference of opinion. Adhu lunar month occur after a cycle of 65 Paksha's and Ksheya Lunar month occur with a cycle of 19th and 141th cycle of years. As regard Mala solar months ,these months occur twice every year when Sun transits Sagittarius and Pisces Sidereal signs . I am at least not aware the definition of Mala solar month given by you. Regards, G. K. Goel ancient_indian_ astrology sreesog Fri, 30 Oct 2009 12:03:40 +0000 [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Mal Masa why bad for muhurtha ? Dear Goel ji and all, As per my current understanding - * The words Adhi-masa (extra month), Mala-masa (impure month), Ksheya-masa (decayed month) mean different things. 1) Adhi masa (extra month) ------------ --------- ----- Extra lunar month. Tithi or Nakshtra based Lunar months and the Lunar year would be always small compared to the solar year. To adjust the difference and make them tune with each other usually an extra Lunar month is considered. This extra lunar month is termed `adhi masa' (extra month). 2) Mala masa (impure month) ------------ --------- ------ Corrupted solar month. If start of more than one lunar month occurs with in a single solar month, then that solar month would be treated as impure month (mala masa). 3) Ksheya masa (decayed month) ------------ --------- --------- Decayed lunar month. When there are two Solar Samkrantis in one lunar month than the lunar month is known as Kshya Maas (Decayed Month). Adhi-masa (extra month) and Ksheya masa (decayed month) are concepts related to lunar month where as mala masa (impure month) is originally a concept related to solar months. But the whole original meaning of these possibly got confused later and people started using these words in an interchanging manner which started causing a lot of confusion. This is my current understanding, but I could be right or wrong on this; and I am ready to change my views based on further inputs. Love and regards, Sreenadh ancient_indian_ astrology, gopal krishna goel <g.k.goel@.. .> wrote: > > > > Dear Friends, > The Mala Masa is calculated as per following rule: > > > > When there are two Solar Samkrantis > in one lunar month than the lunar month > is known as Kshya Maas (Decayed Month). > Kshya Maas is always Paush, Maagh or Margsheersh only and it happens to occur > either in 19th or in 141st years cycle. > Kshya or Mala Masa are always lunar months. The solar months are not > designated as either Adhik or Mala Months. > Regards, > G. K. Goel > > > ancient_indian_ astrology > sreesog > Fri, 30 Oct 2009 05:02:12 +0000 > [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Mal Masa why bad for muhurtha ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Vijay ji, > > ========== > > Adhimasa and Mala masa > > ------------ --------- - > > (From the article 'Vedic Month Names' written by me, that is present in www.nas trology.com website) > > > > Another general concept of importance is Adhimasa (extra month) and Malamasa (impure month). They don't mean the same. Extra month is always connected with Lunar months and Malamasa with Solar months. > > > > Extra Month (Adhi masa): Tithi or Nakshtra based Lunar months and the Lunar year would be always small compared to the solar year. To adjust the difference and make them tune with each other usually an extra Lunar month is considered. This extra lunar month is termed `adhi masa' (extra month). > > > > Impure Month (mala masa): If start of more than one lunar month occurs with in a single solar month, then that solar month would be treated as impure month (mala masa). For example in Amanta system (month start with Sukla paksha pradipada, i.e. with first day after new moon), if two Amavasi (no moon or new moon) occur with in a single solar month, then that solar month would be considered as impure. In Pournamanta system (month start with krishna paksha pradipada, i.e. with first day after full moon) if two Paurnami (full moon) occur with in a single solar month, then that solar month would be considered as impure (mala masa). > > > > Please note that we would be speaking about extra month (Adhimasa) only in case of Lunar months and impure month (Malamasa) only in case of Solar months. > > ============ ========= ========= = > > Malamasa (impure month) gets its impurity from the uncertainty of result it causes. i.e. Since we are not sure about the result that should be attributed to Malamasa (as per astrological predictive system), and since it violates the perfectionist perspective of mathematics and thus induces fear and uncertainty in us regarding the result, it is treated as impure. > > This is the very reason for not suggesting muhurta during malamasa. > > Love and regards, > > Sreenadh > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, " vijay.goel " <goyalvj@> wrote: > > > > > > Respected Members, > > > > > > When Sun transit in the rasi owing to jupiter in Dhanu and Meena, it is said Mal Masa. > > > > > > Any auspicious muhurtha in this two month period is avoided. > > > Why, what are its implications ? > > > To what extent we should observe this and any parihara for it ? > > > > > > Just a curiosity as this period is now approaching and people have very less muhurtha in this year Panchanga. > > > > > > Thankyou, > > > Regards, > > > Vijay Goel > > > Jaipur. 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Guest guest Posted November 3, 2009 Report Share Posted November 3, 2009 Dear Sunil Bhattacharjya ji, //However I am open to see your complete interpretion of Lord Rama's and Bharata's birth and that of the twins with your alternative interpretation of the term lagna, using the relevant verses of the Balakanda.// You can search the archive with the words " Horoscope of Rama " to get my complete interpretation that is available in group achieves. Love and regards, Sreenadh , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya wrote: > > Dear Sreenadhji, > > I think Lagna also means time. Also see the derived words like Samlagna, whch has absolutely no direct connection with Rashi. Lagna shows the connection between the birth time with the Sun's rising in a particular Rashi. That is why when the time of the birth coincides with the Sun's rising in a particular Rashi that rashi becomes the lagna. This way by using the term lagna one can distinguish between the Rashi in which the Moon can stay for about two and a half days and the Rashi where the Sun can stay for only two hours, in the geocentric model and the latter came to be called lagna, ie location of the Sun in a Rashi at the time of birth. To my mind the Balakanda uses the Lagna and Abhudite Ravau as synonymous. > > Similarly kindly consider that the word Hora could have come from combined word for day (Ahah) and night (Ratra) ie Ahoratra. Lagna is also connected with Hora as an indicator of the time (Lagna) of the day (ahoratra) in which the birth time is recorded. The length of Ahoratra is equal to about half of that of the stay of the Moon in a rashi. > > As regards the possibility of the origin of the Agama culture in the central asia the eminent Sanskrit scholar and linguist, Prof. Sukumar Sen studied the origin of the Kubjika Tantra in that light and found the possibility of some connection with the Sakas but kindly remember that sakas originated in India, if you see the ancient epics. > > However I am open to see your complete interpretion of Lord Rama's and > Bharata's birth and that of the twins with your alternative > interpretation of the term lagna, using the relevant verses of the Balakanda. > > Regards, > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > --- On Sat, 10/31/09, sreesog <sreesog wrote: > > sreesog <sreesog > Re: Laksmana's lagna > > Saturday, October 31, 2009, 1:48 AM > > > > > > Dear Sunil Bhattacharjya ji, > > NUMEROUS ancient texts use the word " Lagna " to mean SIGN only and NOT to mean Ascendant. Thus possibly from a historical perspective the original meaning of the word 'Lagna' was Sign and NOT ascendant. The meaning 'Ascendant' must have been ascribed to this word later only. Or in other word the meaning of the word 'Lagna' as ascendant is an abbreviation of the word 'Udaya Lagna' (Rising sign). Thus as per ancient terminology - > > Lagna = Sign > > Udaya Lagna = Rising sign or Ascendant > > Using the word simply 'Lagna' to refer to Ascendant must be a later day development in the history of astrology. Even today many people and books use the word Lagna to refer to Signs. i.e. The original meaning of the word 'Lagna' is NOT lost yet, and Lagna actually means SIGN. > > Hora is another word that underwent such a meaning confusion. Brihat Jataka states - " Horeti lagnam, bhavanasya chartham " (The word 'Hora' has two meanings - Sign, and half of sign). > > Please note that even in that quote the word Lagna is used to mean Sign and NOT ascendent. Astrology is also known as 'Hora Sastra' (Ancient knowledge branch - advice - that deals with Signs). Ofcourse the words Hora and Drekkana must have a history older than or as old as that of Signs. > > Rasi (Signs) = 12 part division of zodiac (This word could have originated in anywhere - possibly in some Agama culture in central asia) > > Hora = 24 part division of zodiac (could have originated in greek; the original indian word must have been something else; anyway the meaning of this word was different for greeks and indians) > > Drekkana = 36 part division of zodiac (could have originated in Egypt; the original indian word could have been something else; anyway the meaning of this word is same for all cultures) > > Please note that I am NOT saying that the concept of Hora (half of sign) or Drekkana (1/3rd of sign) originated outside India, but just pointing to the fact that these words could have an outside indian connection. The better Sanskrit words for them could have been - > > * Dwi-bhaga = 1/2th of sign > > * Tri-bhaga = 1/3rd of sign > > Or considering that it is the word " Amsa " that is associated with Chaturtha-amsa, Panchama-amsa, Navama-amsa etc, the other words that could have been used were - > > * Dwi-amsa = 1/2th of sign > > * Tri-amsa = 1/3rd of sign > > But true, no such use are seen anywhere in any ancient available astrological texts. This possibly points to the fact that these words " Hora " and " Drekkana " are much much older than those texts itself, and finds its origin and dates back to the pre-historic period of origin of astrology. > > Anyway, coming back to the use of the word " Lagna " in Valmiki Ramayana, I am of the opinion that, Valmiki uses the word " Lagna " just to mean " Sign " and NOT Ascendant. Valmiki must had been using this word in its then prevailing original meaning (i.e. Sign) and NOT in the modern meaning that we ascribe to it - i.e. Asc. > > I hope this could be helpful. > > Love and regards, > > Sreenadh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2009 Report Share Posted November 3, 2009 Dear Sreenadhji,Thanks and regards,Sunil K. Bhattacharjya--- On Mon, 11/2/09, sreesog <sreesog wrote:sreesog <sreesog Re: Laksmana's lagna Date: Monday, November 2, 2009, 11:48 PM Dear Sunil Bhattacharjya ji, //However I am open to see your complete interpretion of Lord Rama's and Bharata's birth and that of the twins with your alternative interpretation of the term lagna, using the relevant verses of the Balakanda.// You can search the archive with the words "Horoscope of Rama" to get my complete interpretation that is available in group achieves. Love and regards, Sreenadh ancient_indian_ astrology, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote: > > Dear Sreenadhji, > > I think Lagna also means time. Also see the derived words like Samlagna, whch has absolutely no direct connection with Rashi. Lagna shows the connection between the birth time with the Sun's rising in a particular Rashi. That is why when the time of the birth coincides with the Sun's rising in a particular Rashi that rashi becomes the lagna. This way by using the term lagna one can distinguish between the Rashi in which the Moon can stay for about two and a half days and the Rashi where the Sun can stay for only two hours, in the geocentric model and the latter came to be called lagna, ie location of the Sun in a Rashi at the time of birth. To my mind the Balakanda uses the Lagna and Abhudite Ravau as synonymous. > > Similarly kindly consider that the word Hora could have come from combined word for day (Ahah) and night (Ratra) ie Ahoratra. Lagna is also connected with Hora as an indicator of the time (Lagna) of the day (ahoratra) in which the birth time is recorded. The length of Ahoratra is equal to about half of that of the stay of the Moon in a rashi. > > As regards the possibility of the origin of the Agama culture in the central asia the eminent Sanskrit scholar and linguist, Prof. Sukumar Sen studied the origin of the Kubjika Tantra in that light and found the possibility of some connection with the Sakas but kindly remember that sakas originated in India, if you see the ancient epics. > > However I am open to see your complete interpretion of Lord Rama's and > Bharata's birth and that of the twins with your alternative > interpretation of the term lagna, using the relevant verses of the Balakanda. > > Regards, > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > --- On Sat, 10/31/09, sreesog <sreesog > wrote: > > sreesog <sreesog > > [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Laksmana's lagna > ancient_indian_ astrology > Saturday, October 31, 2009, 1:48 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Sunil Bhattacharjya ji, > > NUMEROUS ancient texts use the word "Lagna" to mean SIGN only and NOT to mean Ascendant. Thus possibly from a historical perspective the original meaning of the word 'Lagna' was Sign and NOT ascendant. The meaning 'Ascendant' must have been ascribed to this word later only. Or in other word the meaning of the word 'Lagna' as ascendant is an abbreviation of the word 'Udaya Lagna' (Rising sign). Thus as per ancient terminology - > > Lagna = Sign > > Udaya Lagna = Rising sign or Ascendant > > Using the word simply 'Lagna' to refer to Ascendant must be a later day development in the history of astrology. Even today many people and books use the word Lagna to refer to Signs. i.e. The original meaning of the word 'Lagna' is NOT lost yet, and Lagna actually means SIGN. > > Hora is another word that underwent such a meaning confusion. Brihat Jataka states - "Horeti lagnam, bhavanasya chartham" (The word 'Hora' has two meanings - Sign, and half of sign). > > Please note that even in that quote the word Lagna is used to mean Sign and NOT ascendent. Astrology is also known as 'Hora Sastra' (Ancient knowledge branch - advice - that deals with Signs). Ofcourse the words Hora and Drekkana must have a history older than or as old as that of Signs. > > Rasi (Signs) = 12 part division of zodiac (This word could have originated in anywhere - possibly in some Agama culture in central asia) > > Hora = 24 part division of zodiac (could have originated in greek; the original indian word must have been something else; anyway the meaning of this word was different for greeks and indians) > > Drekkana = 36 part division of zodiac (could have originated in Egypt; the original indian word could have been something else; anyway the meaning of this word is same for all cultures) > > Please note that I am NOT saying that the concept of Hora (half of sign) or Drekkana (1/3rd of sign) originated outside India, but just pointing to the fact that these words could have an outside indian connection. The better Sanskrit words for them could have been - > > * Dwi-bhaga = 1/2th of sign > > * Tri-bhaga = 1/3rd of sign > > Or considering that it is the word "Amsa" that is associated with Chaturtha-amsa, Panchama-amsa, Navama-amsa etc, the other words that could have been used were - > > * Dwi-amsa = 1/2th of sign > > * Tri-amsa = 1/3rd of sign > > But true, no such use are seen anywhere in any ancient available astrological texts. This possibly points to the fact that these words "Hora" and "Drekkana" are much much older than those texts itself, and finds its origin and dates back to the pre-historic period of origin of astrology. > > Anyway, coming back to the use of the word "Lagna" in Valmiki Ramayana, I am of the opinion that, Valmiki uses the word "Lagna" just to mean "Sign" and NOT Ascendant. Valmiki must had been using this word in its then prevailing original meaning (i.e. Sign) and NOT in the modern meaning that we ascribe to it - i.e. Asc. > > I hope this could be helpful. > > Love and regards, > > Sreenadh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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