Guest guest Posted October 29, 2009 Report Share Posted October 29, 2009 Dear shri RAjji, Perhaps what you are looking for is availble in the files section of parvasudhar2065 ,please go through some criteria avaible there.Coordinatve system is the only vedic system is one of the files there on the subject. thank you, Hari Malla , " jyotishi " <raj wrote: > > Dear Kaul ji, > You have categorically and critically claimed that we are celebrating festivals on the wrong dates or in other words, the dates chosen for our festivals (by the panchanga makers - including the govt of india) do not follow the criteria available in our ancient texts for determining the dates for each festival. > > I think we should have an open mind to review whether and to what extent we are adhering to the criteria given in the ancient texts. In order to do this, we need to first identify those criteria. > > Kaulji, I would like to request you to kindly make a post (or direct me to a post) where we can identify the criteria for ascertaining the dates for the major festivals of India. > > I would like to invite some of the scholars (and panchanga experts) to comment on these criteria and also delve on how far have we moved away from these criteria (rightly or wrongly). > > Just one thing, lets keep 'Vedic Astrologer' and 'Rashis' out of this discussion as these are highly charged words!! > > regards, > raj > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2009 Report Share Posted November 2, 2009 Dear Rajji, There are Hindu festivals which require both the Sidereal calendar and the Seasonal (Tropical) calendar. For example the Harvest festival, which is observed by different communities, is a season-based festival as the agriculture depends on the Monsoon. which in turn is seasonal. If ceratin seasonal festivals are not being properly observed on the basis of season then one has every right to protest. However there are many festivals which depend on the Sidereal calendar. For example the Ram-Navami is to be observed on the Shukla-Navami day in the month of Chaitra. Valmiki Ramayana clearly mentions the month of Chaitra. It may be true that some portions of the Balakanda and the Uttarakanda could have been modified by Valmiki at a later date to project Lord Rama as God or it could even be that some other rishi could have added these two kandas to the Ramayana later on. Whatever may be the case one has to rely on the data given in the Ramayana. We cannot rely on other data if that goes against that data given in the Ramayaana. Some people may think that we have to observe the Ram-Navami in the month of Madhu as some later day texts have mentioned the month of madhu as the birth-month of Lord Rama. It could have been so at the time of Lord Rama but the seasonal months go on changing due to precession. That shows that we have to stick to what has been given in the Valmiki Ramayana only. We have also to keep in mind that according to the Rigveda. the Moon is the maker of the month. Both the Purnimanta and the Amanta months are there in the Veda. The Lunar and Soli-Lunar months are Purnimanta and Amanta and these are based on the Purnima and Amavashya in the Nakshtras . I have shown in one of the earlier mails in the group that when Lord Rama was born the the Month was Chaitra and the Sun was around 183 degrees in the Chitra nakshatra and this points to the Purnimanta Chaitra month. Now let us take another case. The Kartika Vrata in month of Kartika is observed by the pious Hindus.The Kartika month is holy to the Hindus and it considered to be the month of Mother Radha. Tulsi pujan is also done in this month. Simalarly the Shravana month is observed by the Shiva bhaktas. Another example is the Ashadha Ekadashi, which is observed in the month of Ashadha. In the Bhagavad Gita Lord Krishna told about the month of Margashirsha. The Uttarakhanda of the Padma purana tells us about the importance of all these months, which are sidereal. It will go against the very basis of Hindu festivals if the Sidereal calendar is abolished. I think the Hindus being tolerant are tolerating this campaign of some people to abolish the sidereal calendar. but before people turn violent we have to see that this anti-Hindu campaign stops.. I am not against the Seasonal calendar. I feel that if it is possible let us accommodate the Seasonal calendar alongside the regular Sidereal calendar. Nobody in proper frame of mind can think of abolishing the Sidereal calendar. If there is opposition to the existence of Sidereal calendar then we should better forget about accommodating the seasonal calendar. Regards, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya --- On Mon, 11/2/09, jyotishi <raj wrote: jyotishi <raj Re: Hindu festivals Monday, November 2, 2009, 7:53 PM thank you. I will respond shortly. regards, raj , " jyotirved " <jyotirved@. ..> wrote: > > Dear Raj ji, > > Many thanks for your post regarding the above topic. > > I am really glad that a jyotishi also is taking interest in calendar reform! > > > <You have categorically and critically claimed that we are celebrating > festivals on the wrong dates or in other words, the dates chosen for our > festivals (by the panchanga makers - including the govt of india) do not > follow the criteria available in our ancient texts for determining the dates > for each festival. > > > You are absolutely right. These days we are celebrating all our festivals > neither as per the Vedas, nor Puranas nor sidhantas, and surprisingly, not > even as per Primary School level geography but only as per the whims and > fancies of some " almighties " like Lahiriwalas and Ramanawalas and so on. I > have made quite a few representations to all those who matter, including the > President of India, New Delhi; Postional Astronomy Centre and the India > Meteorological Department (publishers of Rashtriya Panchanga) etc. etc. in > this regard, as will be clear from the papers in the files section of > Hinducalendar forum. > The calendar reform has been a process of evolution for me personally on the > lines of the Vedas and the Puranas. To start with, I was totally enamoured > of Grahalghava etc. Makar Sankrantis and other festivals, and believe it or > not, it was through predictive astrology--- nirayana, with > Lahiri/Grahalaghava ayanamsha, of course!----that I started delving deep > into calendar reform! It was an inadvertent wake-up call for me, since when > I found quite a few predictions not coming true because of one ayanamsha, I > experimented with other ayanamshas, and finally delved deep into sidhantas > and the Puranas! > > From a perusal of all those puranas and sidhantas, I concluded that it was > the " Tropical zodiac " (Sayana Rashichakra) that was being followed by all > of them for festivals and by implication, the Pauranic and sidhantic > authorities must have been following it even for astrological predictions! > I therefore started a crusade for Tropical Zodiac i.e. Sayana Rashichakra, > presuming that since that was the basis of Pauranic festivals, it must be > the basis of not only Vedic festivals but even the real Vedic astrology. > That crusade lasted for a considerable period through my Panchangas and > surprisingly, I even made quite a few correct predictions on the basis of > Sayana Rashichakra and secondary progressions etc. For one of those > predictions, I was awarded NOSTRADAMUS Award by His Holiness of Kanchi > Kamakoti, Swami Jayendra Saraswati, at Kanchi, (and not at Delhi!). My to > and fro expenses of air-fair and stay at a five-star hotel in Chennai etc. > etc. apart from a cheque for Rs. 11000/- as back as 1995, also were borne > by Express Star Teller Magazine, who had started that award. That > strengthened my view that Tropical astrology was the real Vedic astrology, > which it is not, as we shall see shortly! > > Since " the greatest Vedic astrologer of the twentieth century " viz. Dr. B. > V. Raman etc. called the nirayana astrology as Vedic, I was intrigued as to > how could the Vedic Rashis be different from the Paurnic and sidhantic! I, > therefore, went through all the Vedas and the Vedanga Jyotisha etc. with a > tooth comb! > > As is common knowledge by now, there were/are absolutely no Mesha, Vrisha > etc. Rashis in the Vedas! So to call them sayana or nirayana was just > meaningless and tacking at the air! > > In my panchangas, I had been clubbing Ashvini, Bharni etc. nakshatras also > with Sayana Rashichakra since that was what was done by the Hindu > astrologers on the basis of the Surya Sidhanta. That very practice of > Ashvini etc. nakshatras being clubbed with Sayana rashis continued to be > followed at the time of Alberuni i.e. eleventh century in India. But a > member of Indiaarchaeology forum, Shri Paul Kekai Manansala, drew my > attention to the fact that Tropical Rashis could never be clubbed with > Ashvini, Bharni etc. nakshatras! > > That set me thinking again as to how the Puranas had talked of a sayana > rashichakra and also nakshatras, in one and the same breath, whereas the > Vedas talked about the nakshatras times without number but did not mention, > much less link them, with any Mesha etc. rashis, which were conspicuous by > their absence from the same! There was yet another dichotomy: The year as > per the Vedanga Jyotisha started from Uttarayana but the nakshatras started > from Kritiika as against Ashvini (as is happening these days) or Dhanishtha > where the Uttarayana was located then! > > It dawned on me much later in the day that nakshatras had nothing to do with > Madhu, Madhava etc. months---the real Vedic months instead of Mesha, Vrisha > etc. rashis---since the latter were/are seasonal and immune to the effects > of precession of equinoxes! Thus if the Vernal Equinox was the Vasanta > Sampat i.e when the day was equal to night in 10000 BCE, it will remain so > in 10000 AD as well, when the day will be equal to night again, irrespective > of the fact that if the VE was in nakshatra " A " (the first nakshatra of the > nakshatra chakra) in 10000 BCE, it may be in nakshatra " Z " (the last > nakshatra of that very nakshatra chakra) in 10000 AD, but Vernal Equinox > would continue to be Vasanta Sampat i.e., when day is equal to night! > Similarly, if Madhu was the first month of Vasanta Ritu (the month before > the VE) in 10000 BCE, it will be the first month of that very Vasanta Ritu > in 10000 AD as well, since the Vasanta Ritu (Spring season) will always > start a month prior to the Vernal Equinox, unaffected by precession of > equinoxes! > > It means that it is only Mesha, Vrisha etc. rashis that are creating the > confusion of so called sayana and nirayana and so on whereas there are no > such confusions and dichotomies in the Vedas or the Vedic months, much less > the Vedic seasons! > > In fact, the Vedic calendar is the most scientific and the most wonderful as > well beautiful calendar the world could ever have! It is unlike all the > other calendars the world over! It is directly linked to the four cardinal > points viz. the two equinoxes and two solstices and to the resulting Madhu, > Madhava etc. months. It is to those very Madhu, Madhava months to which the > synodic months are pegged! Thus the real Vedic synodic (what most people > call lunar) months are also immune to precession, since they are directly > linked to seasonal solar months! Thus if the lunar Vasanti Navratra > started with the first New Moon (Amanta---Shukla pratipat) after the month > of Madhu in 10000 BCE, it will start similarly in 10000 AD also, i.e., the > first New Moon after the month of Madhu---you may as well say the last new > Moon before the Vernal Equinox----will be the start of the lunar > Vasanti-Navratra- cum-Chaitra in 10000 AD also just as it was so in 10000 BC. > That will be the first month of Vasanta Ritu therefore in 10000 AD, as it > was in 10000 BCE. > > Thus when we say that Bhagwan Ram was born on Chaitra Shukla Navmi in > Vasanta Ritu, it was thus Shukla_navmi of the first lunar month of Vasanta > Ritu---the last New Moon before the Vernal Equinox---known as the month of > Madhu in the Vedanga Jyotisha---where there is no confusion of any Mesha, > Vrisha etc. rashis nor the so called sayana or nirayana etc. cacophony! > > This was a revelation to me that the Vedas were really without Mesha etc. > Rashis and that is why the Vedic calendar is the most scientific and a > durable one! If you peruse the history of Vedic calendar, it is only after > the introduction of Mehsa, Vrisha etc. rashis through the Surya Sidhanta of > Maya the mlechha that things have gone helter-skelter! We have become > completely delinked from the Madhu, Madhaa etc. months and the four cardinal > points and got hooked to Mesha, Vrisha etc. Rashis about which nobody knows > as to which rashi starts from where, if at all it starts from any point! > > Since I could not find any Mesha, Vrisha etc. rashis in the Vedas and the > Vedanga Jyotisha etc., I was just mad with rage as to how the Vedic seers > had been so negligent as not to talk about them at all, as all the > astrologers the world over had been dinning it into my ears that Mesha, > Vrisha etc. rashis were astronomical twelve equal divisions of the zodiac, > which in itself was " rock solid " ! > > I had therefore to delve deeper into astronomical works as well so as to see > as to what had gone wrong and where about the Vedic lore as to why the Seers > had not talked about Mesha, Vrisha etc. Rashis and Mangal, Shanie etc. > planets, when the whole world had been talking about the same over the last > at least two thousand years! > > To my surprise, I found that the Vedic seers were more advanced than all the > astronomers the world over put together a few thousand years back! > Astronomically, zodiac (the famous Rashichakra/ bhachakra of the sidhantas > and Puranas and jyotishis!) is nothing but " an imaginary belt of the heavens > centering on the ecliptic, within which are the apparent paths of the sun, > moon and principal planets " . Zodiac is actually a Greek word which in > itself means a " circle of animals " . It was actually divided into many more > parts---all of them unequal----than twelve and each part was known as a > constellation by Greek astronomers. Prominent among those constellations > were Aries, Taurus etc. thirteen (including Ophuchius) Greek > constellations- ---none equal to one another. These constellations are > supposed to have resembled some figures in the past e.g. a cluster of > millions and billions of stars is supposed to have resembled a Ram in the > hoary past by Babylonian astrologers, and yet another part resembled a Bull > and so on. That is why they named those portions as Aries, Taurus and so > on. Even those constellations no longer resemble those figures these days, > because of the Proper Motion of stars, but somehow, IAU is sill calling > those constellations by those very names. > > Those very unequal constellations were used by Greco-Chaldean astrologers > for astrological predictions, under the impression that since those " groups " > contained stars they were affecting every Tom, Dick and Harry through > " divine entities " like Mars, Jupiter, Saturn etc. etc. Instead of > considering the actual unequal imaginary constellations even for > predictions, they just divided the already imaginary zodiac into twelve > imaginary divisions, and called each division by the original name of Aries, > Taurus etc. Thus you will not find any astrological sign Aries, Taurus etc. > corresponding at all with the exact constellation of that very name e.g. > Astrological sign Aries is away by light years from the constellation Aries > and astrological sign Taurus is away by Light years from the constellation > Taurus and so on! Still jyotishis claim to be making correct predictions > from those very imaginary " equal animals " (Rashis) of imaginary " unequal > animals " (constellations) of a still more imaginary circle named zodiac > which extends about nine/ten degrees above and below of yet another > imaginary circle known as Ecliptic! My God! It is real imagination run > riot! > > NATURALLY, THE VEDIC SEERS WERE REAL SCIENTISTS NOT TO HAVE THOUGHT OF SUCH > IMAGINARY " TWELVE EQUAL ANIMAL DIVISIONS " OF " UNEQUAL ANIMALS " ! > > Anyway, coming back to our Vedic calendar, it was the same imaginary circle > of imaginary twelve imaginary animals that Maya the mlechha thrust on us and > we got dislodged completely from Madhu, Madhava etc. months and the real > Vedic nakshtras like Krittika, Mrigasira etc. > > Thus, if we really want to streamline our Vedic calendar and put it back on > the real Vedic track, we have to completely eliminate Mesha, Vrisha etc. > rashis from our vocabulary, just as the Vedic seers had done it, and delink > nakshatras completely from not only the non-existent rashis but even Madhu, > Madhava etc. months to which they were never linked, in the first place. > > If because of our infatuation with predictive gimmicks, we are unable to > forget Mesha, Vrisha etc. Rashis, then we must at the best or even at the > worst use the so called Sayana Rashis for the real Vedic months like Mina > for Madhu, Mesha for Madhava and so on, since that is what all the Puranas > and sidhantas have done. > > That way we can at least claim that we are celebrating our festivals in > accordance with the Puranas if not the Vedas! Nakshatras have to be > completely delinked from Rashis, whether sayana or nirayana, and after a > thorough debate, they may be pegged to the Junction Stars, if it is found > that they have really anything to do with their namesake nakshatra divisions > of the Vedas. If the scholars decide that the name-sake Junction stars also > were thrust by Maya the mlechha on us on the basis of Hipparchus' Star > catalogue or some other source and they have nothing to do with the Vedic > nakshatras, we may as well shun them and find some other way to decide the > Vedic nakshatras. > > The beauty of the Vedic calendar lies in the fact that it combines both the > lunar (synodic) and the solar months and years and pegs them to the natural > phenomenon of seasons. > > For example, the Muslim calendar is based purely on synodic months, and > since a synodic twelve month cycle is always short by about eleven days from > a solar year, that is why we find Muslim festivals receding back every year > by 11 days! Thus, if Id-uz-Zuha was (say) on December 31 in 1990, it would > have been on December 20 in 1991, on December 9 in 1992, November 29 in 1993 > and so on, with the result that after a period of about 33 years, it may be > back on December 31 in around 2023! Thus none of the festivals of Hejira > calendar remains stable! > > On the other hand, a Vedic Vasanti Navratra always starts with the first New > Moon after the start of Vasanta Ritu, since the " shortfall " of eleven days > in a lunar cycle of twelve months vis-à-vis a solar year is compensated by > an adhika-masa every 32/33 solar months. This adhika masa concept is in > fact found in the ancient most work viz. the Rigveda " Veda maso dhrita vrato > dwadasha prajavatah, veda ya upajayate " (Rigveda 1/25/8) i.e. " Varuna > knows the twelve months, it also knows the thirteenth (adhika) month " . > > If on the other hand, we peg the Hindu calendar to so called Lahiri or Raman > or Muladhara etc. Rashichakra, we are faced with a peculiar situation! We > are not following either Islamic calendar of a pure synodic months, nor are > we following the real Vedic calendar pegged to seasons! It is not even the > Pauranic calendar as that is aligned with sayana rashis! Nor is it a > geographical calendar, since that is dependent on the two Vishuvas and > Ayanasa! We are just between two stools---and have fallen to the ground > already! We are not celebrating Vasanta Navratras with the start of the > Vasanta Ritu, but after one month of that ritu is already over! WE are not > celebrating Sharadiya Navratras with the start of Sharad ritu but after one > month of that ritu is already over. If we continue to follow this pattern, > a day will come when we will celebrate Vasanti Navratras in Sharad Ritu and > vice-versa! > > If at all we have to hug any Makar or Mehsa or karkata etc. Sankrantis, we > must choose the lesser of two evils and embrace pauranic and sidhanti Makar, > Mesha etc. Sankrantis, which are all so called Sayana--- and shun Lahiri etc > Sankrantis. > > < I would like to request you to kindly make a post (or direct me to a post) > where we can identify the criteria for ascertaining the dates for the major > festivals of India.> > > I find that is not open to uploading files. Nor does it store > any attachments. I would request you to change this orientation so that > documents can be uploaded in the files section. That way, instead of > repeating everything in individual posts, it would be easier for me to give > the members all the information that is already stored in the files section > of Hinducalendar forum. As an alternative, since you are already a member > of the Hinducalendar forum, you can upload any file you want to from that > forum to jyotishgoup. Personally, I would recommend " koshur6.doc " , > BVB6.doc; rashi5.doc., npj3.doc, BVB5.doc, PAC3.doc, shankar1.doc etc. etc. > Kindly take time out to go through them and see it for yourself as to what > progress, if any, has already been made in the direction of calendar reform. > > <I would like to invite some of the scholars (and panchanga experts) to > comment on these criteria and also delve on how far have we moved away from > these criteria (rightly or wrongly).> > > You are most welcome to invite any scholar etc. to comment on these criteria > since that is what I actually want and that is why I am posting my mails on > every forum. I am posting separately " raman.doc " which will give you an > idea about the efforts that I have been making in this direction. > > < Just one thing, lets keep 'Vedic Astrologer' and 'Rashis' out of this > discussion as these are highly charged words!!> > > There is a saying in Hindi, " main to kambal ko chhod raha hoon, lekin kambal > mujhe nahin chhod raa hai " . The story goes like this: Some one mistook a > drowning bear for a woolen blanket of black colour and he jumped to collect > that blanket. The bear, like a drowning man catching at a straw, caught > hold of the savoir and would not leave him. A friend of the savoir from the > river-bank shouted, " Why don't you let the blanket go? " and pat came the > reply from the " man who mistook the bear for blanket, " I am trying to let > the `blanket' go, but it is not allowing me to go " . It is a similar story > with " Vedic astrology " and rashis vis-à-vis calendar reform. > > It is on record that over the last at least three centuries efforts have > been going on to put the " dismantled " Vedic calendar back on the track. > This is evident from S. B. Dikshit's " Bharatiya Jyotisha Shastra " . Similar > panchanga standardization committees were held in Varanasi, Ujjain etc. etc. > so much so that the Shankaracharya of Dwarka, more than a hundred years > back, even issued an aadesha patra that all the festivals should be > celebrated on the basis of sayana rashichakra. That aadesha patra also is > in Hinducalenar forum. The last such committee was the " Saha calendar > reform committee " appointed by the GOI in 1953. Unfortunately for India, > the net result of all such committees has been a fall back upon the same > Grahalaghava ayanamsha, which late N. C. Lahiri cunningly manipulated by his > devious methods by pegging it to an imaginary point that was conjunct the > Vernal Equinox of 285 AD that was supposed to be opposite the Spica star > then! It was actually a backdoor entry for Grahlaghava ayanamsha simply > because Lahiri's Indian Ephemeris (English) and his Vishudha Sidhanti > Panjika (Bangla) would not sell if he had switched over to zero ayanamsha or > even Revati Ayanamsha, as was suggested by all the stalwarts! > > This sabotage of the recommendations of the Saha Calenar Reform Committee > will be clear from PAC3.doc in the files section of Hinducalendar forum! > > As such, it is a humble request to all the jyotishis, whether they call > themselves Vedic or non-Vedic or even anti-Vedic, that they may use whatever > ayanamsha or whatever system of prediction they choose for making correct > predictions or patri melapak etc. etc., but they must leave calendar reform > alone and not thrust the " almighty " Lahiri or Muladhara etc. Rashichakra > down the throat of every Hindu. That is also a request to the Government of > India. > > Anybody who can do such a Herculean task will really be the messiah of the > real Vedic calendar. > > With regards, > > A K Kaul > > > > > > , " jyotishi " <raj@> wrote: > > > > Dear Kaul ji, > > You have categorically and critically claimed that we are celebrating > festivals on the wrong dates or in other words, the dates chosen for our > festivals (by the panchanga makers - including the govt of india) do not > follow the criteria available in our ancient texts for determining the dates > for each festival. > > > > I think we should have an open mind to review whether and to what extent > we are adhering to the criteria given in the ancient texts. In order to do > this, we need to first identify those criteria. > > > > Kaulji, I would like to request you to kindly make a post (or direct me to > a post) where we can identify the criteria for ascertaining the dates for > the major festivals of India. > > > > I would like to invite some of the scholars (and panchanga experts) to > comment on these criteria and also delve on how far have we moved away from > these criteria (rightly or wrongly). > > > > Just one thing, lets keep 'Vedic Astrologer' and 'Rashis' out of this > discussion as these are highly charged words!! > > > > regards, > > raj > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2009 Report Share Posted November 3, 2009 thank you. I will respond shortly. regards, raj , " jyotirved " <jyotirved wrote: > > Dear Raj ji, > > Many thanks for your post regarding the above topic. > > I am really glad that a jyotishi also is taking interest in calendar reform! > > > <You have categorically and critically claimed that we are celebrating > festivals on the wrong dates or in other words, the dates chosen for our > festivals (by the panchanga makers - including the govt of india) do not > follow the criteria available in our ancient texts for determining the dates > for each festival. > > > You are absolutely right. These days we are celebrating all our festivals > neither as per the Vedas, nor Puranas nor sidhantas, and surprisingly, not > even as per Primary School level geography but only as per the whims and > fancies of some " almighties " like Lahiriwalas and Ramanawalas and so on. I > have made quite a few representations to all those who matter, including the > President of India, New Delhi; Postional Astronomy Centre and the India > Meteorological Department (publishers of Rashtriya Panchanga) etc. etc. in > this regard, as will be clear from the papers in the files section of > Hinducalendar forum. > The calendar reform has been a process of evolution for me personally on the > lines of the Vedas and the Puranas. To start with, I was totally enamoured > of Grahalghava etc. Makar Sankrantis and other festivals, and believe it or > not, it was through predictive astrology---nirayana, with > Lahiri/Grahalaghava ayanamsha, of course!----that I started delving deep > into calendar reform! It was an inadvertent wake-up call for me, since when > I found quite a few predictions not coming true because of one ayanamsha, I > experimented with other ayanamshas, and finally delved deep into sidhantas > and the Puranas! > > From a perusal of all those puranas and sidhantas, I concluded that it was > the " Tropical zodiac " (Sayana Rashichakra) that was being followed by all > of them for festivals and by implication, the Pauranic and sidhantic > authorities must have been following it even for astrological predictions! > I therefore started a crusade for Tropical Zodiac i.e. Sayana Rashichakra, > presuming that since that was the basis of Pauranic festivals, it must be > the basis of not only Vedic festivals but even the real Vedic astrology. > That crusade lasted for a considerable period through my Panchangas and > surprisingly, I even made quite a few correct predictions on the basis of > Sayana Rashichakra and secondary progressions etc. For one of those > predictions, I was awarded NOSTRADAMUS Award by His Holiness of Kanchi > Kamakoti, Swami Jayendra Saraswati, at Kanchi, (and not at Delhi!). My to > and fro expenses of air-fair and stay at a five-star hotel in Chennai etc. > etc. apart from a cheque for Rs. 11000/- as back as 1995, also were borne > by Express Star Teller Magazine, who had started that award. That > strengthened my view that Tropical astrology was the real Vedic astrology, > which it is not, as we shall see shortly! > > Since " the greatest Vedic astrologer of the twentieth century " viz. Dr. B. > V. Raman etc. called the nirayana astrology as Vedic, I was intrigued as to > how could the Vedic Rashis be different from the Paurnic and sidhantic! I, > therefore, went through all the Vedas and the Vedanga Jyotisha etc. with a > tooth comb! > > As is common knowledge by now, there were/are absolutely no Mesha, Vrisha > etc. Rashis in the Vedas! So to call them sayana or nirayana was just > meaningless and tacking at the air! > > In my panchangas, I had been clubbing Ashvini, Bharni etc. nakshatras also > with Sayana Rashichakra since that was what was done by the Hindu > astrologers on the basis of the Surya Sidhanta. That very practice of > Ashvini etc. nakshatras being clubbed with Sayana rashis continued to be > followed at the time of Alberuni i.e. eleventh century in India. But a > member of Indiaarchaeology forum, Shri Paul Kekai Manansala, drew my > attention to the fact that Tropical Rashis could never be clubbed with > Ashvini, Bharni etc. nakshatras! > > That set me thinking again as to how the Puranas had talked of a sayana > rashichakra and also nakshatras, in one and the same breath, whereas the > Vedas talked about the nakshatras times without number but did not mention, > much less link them, with any Mesha etc. rashis, which were conspicuous by > their absence from the same! There was yet another dichotomy: The year as > per the Vedanga Jyotisha started from Uttarayana but the nakshatras started > from Kritiika as against Ashvini (as is happening these days) or Dhanishtha > where the Uttarayana was located then! > > It dawned on me much later in the day that nakshatras had nothing to do with > Madhu, Madhava etc. months---the real Vedic months instead of Mesha, Vrisha > etc. rashis---since the latter were/are seasonal and immune to the effects > of precession of equinoxes! Thus if the Vernal Equinox was the Vasanta > Sampat i.e when the day was equal to night in 10000 BCE, it will remain so > in 10000 AD as well, when the day will be equal to night again, irrespective > of the fact that if the VE was in nakshatra " A " (the first nakshatra of the > nakshatra chakra) in 10000 BCE, it may be in nakshatra " Z " (the last > nakshatra of that very nakshatra chakra) in 10000 AD, but Vernal Equinox > would continue to be Vasanta Sampat i.e., when day is equal to night! > Similarly, if Madhu was the first month of Vasanta Ritu (the month before > the VE) in 10000 BCE, it will be the first month of that very Vasanta Ritu > in 10000 AD as well, since the Vasanta Ritu (Spring season) will always > start a month prior to the Vernal Equinox, unaffected by precession of > equinoxes! > > It means that it is only Mesha, Vrisha etc. rashis that are creating the > confusion of so called sayana and nirayana and so on whereas there are no > such confusions and dichotomies in the Vedas or the Vedic months, much less > the Vedic seasons! > > In fact, the Vedic calendar is the most scientific and the most wonderful as > well beautiful calendar the world could ever have! It is unlike all the > other calendars the world over! It is directly linked to the four cardinal > points viz. the two equinoxes and two solstices and to the resulting Madhu, > Madhava etc. months. It is to those very Madhu, Madhava months to which the > synodic months are pegged! Thus the real Vedic synodic (what most people > call lunar) months are also immune to precession, since they are directly > linked to seasonal solar months! Thus if the lunar Vasanti Navratra > started with the first New Moon (Amanta---Shukla pratipat) after the month > of Madhu in 10000 BCE, it will start similarly in 10000 AD also, i.e., the > first New Moon after the month of Madhu---you may as well say the last new > Moon before the Vernal Equinox----will be the start of the lunar > Vasanti-Navratra-cum-Chaitra in 10000 AD also just as it was so in 10000 BC. > That will be the first month of Vasanta Ritu therefore in 10000 AD, as it > was in 10000 BCE. > > Thus when we say that Bhagwan Ram was born on Chaitra Shukla Navmi in > Vasanta Ritu, it was thus Shukla_navmi of the first lunar month of Vasanta > Ritu---the last New Moon before the Vernal Equinox---known as the month of > Madhu in the Vedanga Jyotisha---where there is no confusion of any Mesha, > Vrisha etc. rashis nor the so called sayana or nirayana etc. cacophony! > > This was a revelation to me that the Vedas were really without Mesha etc. > Rashis and that is why the Vedic calendar is the most scientific and a > durable one! If you peruse the history of Vedic calendar, it is only after > the introduction of Mehsa, Vrisha etc. rashis through the Surya Sidhanta of > Maya the mlechha that things have gone helter-skelter! We have become > completely delinked from the Madhu, Madhaa etc. months and the four cardinal > points and got hooked to Mesha, Vrisha etc. Rashis about which nobody knows > as to which rashi starts from where, if at all it starts from any point! > > Since I could not find any Mesha, Vrisha etc. rashis in the Vedas and the > Vedanga Jyotisha etc., I was just mad with rage as to how the Vedic seers > had been so negligent as not to talk about them at all, as all the > astrologers the world over had been dinning it into my ears that Mesha, > Vrisha etc. rashis were astronomical twelve equal divisions of the zodiac, > which in itself was " rock solid " ! > > I had therefore to delve deeper into astronomical works as well so as to see > as to what had gone wrong and where about the Vedic lore as to why the Seers > had not talked about Mesha, Vrisha etc. Rashis and Mangal, Shanie etc. > planets, when the whole world had been talking about the same over the last > at least two thousand years! > > To my surprise, I found that the Vedic seers were more advanced than all the > astronomers the world over put together a few thousand years back! > Astronomically, zodiac (the famous Rashichakra/bhachakra of the sidhantas > and Puranas and jyotishis!) is nothing but " an imaginary belt of the heavens > centering on the ecliptic, within which are the apparent paths of the sun, > moon and principal planets " . Zodiac is actually a Greek word which in > itself means a " circle of animals " . It was actually divided into many more > parts---all of them unequal----than twelve and each part was known as a > constellation by Greek astronomers. Prominent among those constellations > were Aries, Taurus etc. thirteen (including Ophuchius) Greek > constellations----none equal to one another. These constellations are > supposed to have resembled some figures in the past e.g. a cluster of > millions and billions of stars is supposed to have resembled a Ram in the > hoary past by Babylonian astrologers, and yet another part resembled a Bull > and so on. That is why they named those portions as Aries, Taurus and so > on. Even those constellations no longer resemble those figures these days, > because of the Proper Motion of stars, but somehow, IAU is sill calling > those constellations by those very names. > > Those very unequal constellations were used by Greco-Chaldean astrologers > for astrological predictions, under the impression that since those " groups " > contained stars they were affecting every Tom, Dick and Harry through > " divine entities " like Mars, Jupiter, Saturn etc. etc. Instead of > considering the actual unequal imaginary constellations even for > predictions, they just divided the already imaginary zodiac into twelve > imaginary divisions, and called each division by the original name of Aries, > Taurus etc. Thus you will not find any astrological sign Aries, Taurus etc. > corresponding at all with the exact constellation of that very name e.g. > Astrological sign Aries is away by light years from the constellation Aries > and astrological sign Taurus is away by Light years from the constellation > Taurus and so on! Still jyotishis claim to be making correct predictions > from those very imaginary " equal animals " (Rashis) of imaginary " unequal > animals " (constellations) of a still more imaginary circle named zodiac > which extends about nine/ten degrees above and below of yet another > imaginary circle known as Ecliptic! My God! It is real imagination run > riot! > > NATURALLY, THE VEDIC SEERS WERE REAL SCIENTISTS NOT TO HAVE THOUGHT OF SUCH > IMAGINARY " TWELVE EQUAL ANIMAL DIVISIONS " OF " UNEQUAL ANIMALS " ! > > Anyway, coming back to our Vedic calendar, it was the same imaginary circle > of imaginary twelve imaginary animals that Maya the mlechha thrust on us and > we got dislodged completely from Madhu, Madhava etc. months and the real > Vedic nakshtras like Krittika, Mrigasira etc. > > Thus, if we really want to streamline our Vedic calendar and put it back on > the real Vedic track, we have to completely eliminate Mesha, Vrisha etc. > rashis from our vocabulary, just as the Vedic seers had done it, and delink > nakshatras completely from not only the non-existent rashis but even Madhu, > Madhava etc. months to which they were never linked, in the first place. > > If because of our infatuation with predictive gimmicks, we are unable to > forget Mesha, Vrisha etc. Rashis, then we must at the best or even at the > worst use the so called Sayana Rashis for the real Vedic months like Mina > for Madhu, Mesha for Madhava and so on, since that is what all the Puranas > and sidhantas have done. > > That way we can at least claim that we are celebrating our festivals in > accordance with the Puranas if not the Vedas! Nakshatras have to be > completely delinked from Rashis, whether sayana or nirayana, and after a > thorough debate, they may be pegged to the Junction Stars, if it is found > that they have really anything to do with their namesake nakshatra divisions > of the Vedas. If the scholars decide that the name-sake Junction stars also > were thrust by Maya the mlechha on us on the basis of Hipparchus' Star > catalogue or some other source and they have nothing to do with the Vedic > nakshatras, we may as well shun them and find some other way to decide the > Vedic nakshatras. > > The beauty of the Vedic calendar lies in the fact that it combines both the > lunar (synodic) and the solar months and years and pegs them to the natural > phenomenon of seasons. > > For example, the Muslim calendar is based purely on synodic months, and > since a synodic twelve month cycle is always short by about eleven days from > a solar year, that is why we find Muslim festivals receding back every year > by 11 days! Thus, if Id-uz-Zuha was (say) on December 31 in 1990, it would > have been on December 20 in 1991, on December 9 in 1992, November 29 in 1993 > and so on, with the result that after a period of about 33 years, it may be > back on December 31 in around 2023! Thus none of the festivals of Hejira > calendar remains stable! > > On the other hand, a Vedic Vasanti Navratra always starts with the first New > Moon after the start of Vasanta Ritu, since the " shortfall " of eleven days > in a lunar cycle of twelve months vis-à-vis a solar year is compensated by > an adhika-masa every 32/33 solar months. This adhika masa concept is in > fact found in the ancient most work viz. the Rigveda " Veda maso dhrita vrato > dwadasha prajavatah, veda ya upajayate " (Rigveda 1/25/8) i.e. " Varuna > knows the twelve months, it also knows the thirteenth (adhika) month " . > > If on the other hand, we peg the Hindu calendar to so called Lahiri or Raman > or Muladhara etc. Rashichakra, we are faced with a peculiar situation! We > are not following either Islamic calendar of a pure synodic months, nor are > we following the real Vedic calendar pegged to seasons! It is not even the > Pauranic calendar as that is aligned with sayana rashis! Nor is it a > geographical calendar, since that is dependent on the two Vishuvas and > Ayanasa! We are just between two stools---and have fallen to the ground > already! We are not celebrating Vasanta Navratras with the start of the > Vasanta Ritu, but after one month of that ritu is already over! WE are not > celebrating Sharadiya Navratras with the start of Sharad ritu but after one > month of that ritu is already over. If we continue to follow this pattern, > a day will come when we will celebrate Vasanti Navratras in Sharad Ritu and > vice-versa! > > If at all we have to hug any Makar or Mehsa or karkata etc. Sankrantis, we > must choose the lesser of two evils and embrace pauranic and sidhanti Makar, > Mesha etc. Sankrantis, which are all so called Sayana--- and shun Lahiri etc > Sankrantis. > > < I would like to request you to kindly make a post (or direct me to a post) > where we can identify the criteria for ascertaining the dates for the major > festivals of India.> > > I find that is not open to uploading files. Nor does it store > any attachments. I would request you to change this orientation so that > documents can be uploaded in the files section. That way, instead of > repeating everything in individual posts, it would be easier for me to give > the members all the information that is already stored in the files section > of Hinducalendar forum. As an alternative, since you are already a member > of the Hinducalendar forum, you can upload any file you want to from that > forum to jyotishgoup. Personally, I would recommend " koshur6.doc " , > BVB6.doc; rashi5.doc., npj3.doc, BVB5.doc, PAC3.doc, shankar1.doc etc. etc. > Kindly take time out to go through them and see it for yourself as to what > progress, if any, has already been made in the direction of calendar reform. > > <I would like to invite some of the scholars (and panchanga experts) to > comment on these criteria and also delve on how far have we moved away from > these criteria (rightly or wrongly).> > > You are most welcome to invite any scholar etc. to comment on these criteria > since that is what I actually want and that is why I am posting my mails on > every forum. I am posting separately " raman.doc " which will give you an > idea about the efforts that I have been making in this direction. > > < Just one thing, lets keep 'Vedic Astrologer' and 'Rashis' out of this > discussion as these are highly charged words!!> > > There is a saying in Hindi, " main to kambal ko chhod raha hoon, lekin kambal > mujhe nahin chhod raa hai " . The story goes like this: Some one mistook a > drowning bear for a woolen blanket of black colour and he jumped to collect > that blanket. The bear, like a drowning man catching at a straw, caught > hold of the savoir and would not leave him. A friend of the savoir from the > river-bank shouted, " Why don't you let the blanket go? " and pat came the > reply from the " man who mistook the bear for blanket, " I am trying to let > the `blanket' go, but it is not allowing me to go " . It is a similar story > with " Vedic astrology " and rashis vis-à-vis calendar reform. > > It is on record that over the last at least three centuries efforts have > been going on to put the " dismantled " Vedic calendar back on the track. > This is evident from S. B. Dikshit's " Bharatiya Jyotisha Shastra " . Similar > panchanga standardization committees were held in Varanasi, Ujjain etc. etc. > so much so that the Shankaracharya of Dwarka, more than a hundred years > back, even issued an aadesha patra that all the festivals should be > celebrated on the basis of sayana rashichakra. That aadesha patra also is > in Hinducalenar forum. The last such committee was the " Saha calendar > reform committee " appointed by the GOI in 1953. Unfortunately for India, > the net result of all such committees has been a fall back upon the same > Grahalaghava ayanamsha, which late N. C. Lahiri cunningly manipulated by his > devious methods by pegging it to an imaginary point that was conjunct the > Vernal Equinox of 285 AD that was supposed to be opposite the Spica star > then! It was actually a backdoor entry for Grahlaghava ayanamsha simply > because Lahiri's Indian Ephemeris (English) and his Vishudha Sidhanti > Panjika (Bangla) would not sell if he had switched over to zero ayanamsha or > even Revati Ayanamsha, as was suggested by all the stalwarts! > > This sabotage of the recommendations of the Saha Calenar Reform Committee > will be clear from PAC3.doc in the files section of Hinducalendar forum! > > As such, it is a humble request to all the jyotishis, whether they call > themselves Vedic or non-Vedic or even anti-Vedic, that they may use whatever > ayanamsha or whatever system of prediction they choose for making correct > predictions or patri melapak etc. etc., but they must leave calendar reform > alone and not thrust the " almighty " Lahiri or Muladhara etc. Rashichakra > down the throat of every Hindu. That is also a request to the Government of > India. > > Anybody who can do such a Herculean task will really be the messiah of the > real Vedic calendar. > > With regards, > > A K Kaul > > > > > > , " jyotishi " <raj@> wrote: > > > > Dear Kaul ji, > > You have categorically and critically claimed that we are celebrating > festivals on the wrong dates or in other words, the dates chosen for our > festivals (by the panchanga makers - including the govt of india) do not > follow the criteria available in our ancient texts for determining the dates > for each festival. > > > > I think we should have an open mind to review whether and to what extent > we are adhering to the criteria given in the ancient texts. In order to do > this, we need to first identify those criteria. > > > > Kaulji, I would like to request you to kindly make a post (or direct me to > a post) where we can identify the criteria for ascertaining the dates for > the major festivals of India. > > > > I would like to invite some of the scholars (and panchanga experts) to > comment on these criteria and also delve on how far have we moved away from > these criteria (rightly or wrongly). > > > > Just one thing, lets keep 'Vedic Astrologer' and 'Rashis' out of this > discussion as these are highly charged words!! > > > > regards, > > raj > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2009 Report Share Posted November 3, 2009 Dear Rajji, There are Hindu festivals which require both the Sidereal calendar and the Seasonal (Tropical) calendar. For example the Harvest festival, which is observed by different communities, is a season-based festival as the agriculture depends on the Monsoon. which in turn is seasonal. If ceratin seasonal festivals are not being properly observed on the basis of season then one has every right to protest. However there are many festivals which depend on the Sidereal calendar. For example the Ram-Navami is to be observed on the Shukla-Navami day in the month of Chaitra. Valmiki Ramayana clearly mentions the month of Chaitra. It may be true that some portions of the Balakanda and the Uttarakanda could have been modified by Valmiki at a later date to project Lord Rama as God or it could even be that some other rishi could have added these two kandas to the Ramayana later on. Whatever may be the case one has to rely on the data given in the Ramayana. We cannot rely on other data if that goes against that data given in the Ramayaana. Some people may think that we have to observe the Ram-Navami in the month of Madhu as some later day texts have mentioned the month of madhu as the birth-month of Lord Rama. It could have been so at the time of Lord Rama but the seasonal months go on changing due to precession. That shows that we have to stick to what has been given in the Valmiki Ramayana only. We have also to keep in mind that according to the Rigveda. the Moon is the maker of the month. Both the Purnimanta and the Amanta months are there in the Veda. The Lunar and Soli-Lunar months are Purnimanta and Amanta and these are based on the Purnima and Amavashya in the Nakshtras . I have shown in one of the earlier mails in the group that when Lord Rama was born the the Month was Chaitra and the Sun was around 183 degrees in the Chitra nakshatra and this points to the Purnimanta Chaitra month. Now let us take another case. The Kartika Vrata in month of Kartika is observed by the pious Hindus.The Kartika month is holy to the Hindus and it considered to be the month of Mother Radha. Tulsi pujan is also done in this month. Simalarly the Shravana month is observed by the Shiva bhaktas. Another example is the Ashadha Ekadashi, which is observed in the month of Ashadha. In the Bhagavad Gita Lord Krishna told about the month of Margashirsha. The Uttarakhanda of the Padma purana tells us about the importance of all these months, which are sidereal. It will go against the very basis of Hindu festivals if the Sidereal calendar is abolished. I think the Hindus being tolerant are tolerating this campaign of some people to abolish the sidereal calendar. but before people turn violent we have to see that this anti-Hindu campaign stops.. I am not against the Seasonal calendar. I feel that if it is possible let us accommodate the Seasonal calendar alongside the regular Sidereal calendar. Nobody in proper frame of mind can think of abolishing the Sidereal calendar. If there is opposition to the existence of Sidereal calendar then we should better forget about accommodating the seasonal calendar. Regards, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya --- On Mon, 11/2/09, jyotishi <raj wrote: jyotishi <raj Re: Hindu festivals Monday, November 2, 2009, 7:53 PM thank you. I will respond shortly. regards, raj , " jyotirved " <jyotirved@. ..> wrote: > > Dear Raj ji, > > Many thanks for your post regarding the above topic. > > I am really glad that a jyotishi also is taking interest in calendar reform! > > > <You have categorically and critically claimed that we are celebrating > festivals on the wrong dates or in other words, the dates chosen for our > festivals (by the panchanga makers - including the govt of india) do not > follow the criteria available in our ancient texts for determining the dates > for each festival. > > > You are absolutely right. These days we are celebrating all our festivals > neither as per the Vedas, nor Puranas nor sidhantas, and surprisingly, not > even as per Primary School level geography but only as per the whims and > fancies of some " almighties " like Lahiriwalas and Ramanawalas and so on. I > have made quite a few representations to all those who matter, including the > President of India, New Delhi; Postional Astronomy Centre and the India > Meteorological Department (publishers of Rashtriya Panchanga) etc. etc. in > this regard, as will be clear from the papers in the files section of > Hinducalendar forum. > The calendar reform has been a process of evolution for me personally on the > lines of the Vedas and the Puranas. To start with, I was totally enamoured > of Grahalghava etc. Makar Sankrantis and other festivals, and believe it or > not, it was through predictive astrology--- nirayana, with > Lahiri/Grahalaghava ayanamsha, of course!----that I started delving deep > into calendar reform! It was an inadvertent wake-up call for me, since when > I found quite a few predictions not coming true because of one ayanamsha, I > experimented with other ayanamshas, and finally delved deep into sidhantas > and the Puranas! > > From a perusal of all those puranas and sidhantas, I concluded that it was > the " Tropical zodiac " (Sayana Rashichakra) that was being followed by all > of them for festivals and by implication, the Pauranic and sidhantic > authorities must have been following it even for astrological predictions! > I therefore started a crusade for Tropical Zodiac i.e. Sayana Rashichakra, > presuming that since that was the basis of Pauranic festivals, it must be > the basis of not only Vedic festivals but even the real Vedic astrology. > That crusade lasted for a considerable period through my Panchangas and > surprisingly, I even made quite a few correct predictions on the basis of > Sayana Rashichakra and secondary progressions etc. For one of those > predictions, I was awarded NOSTRADAMUS Award by His Holiness of Kanchi > Kamakoti, Swami Jayendra Saraswati, at Kanchi, (and not at Delhi!). My to > and fro expenses of air-fair and stay at a five-star hotel in Chennai etc. > etc. apart from a cheque for Rs. 11000/- as back as 1995, also were borne > by Express Star Teller Magazine, who had started that award. That > strengthened my view that Tropical astrology was the real Vedic astrology, > which it is not, as we shall see shortly! > > Since " the greatest Vedic astrologer of the twentieth century " viz. Dr. B. > V. Raman etc. called the nirayana astrology as Vedic, I was intrigued as to > how could the Vedic Rashis be different from the Paurnic and sidhantic! I, > therefore, went through all the Vedas and the Vedanga Jyotisha etc. with a > tooth comb! > > As is common knowledge by now, there were/are absolutely no Mesha, Vrisha > etc. Rashis in the Vedas! So to call them sayana or nirayana was just > meaningless and tacking at the air! > > In my panchangas, I had been clubbing Ashvini, Bharni etc. nakshatras also > with Sayana Rashichakra since that was what was done by the Hindu > astrologers on the basis of the Surya Sidhanta. That very practice of > Ashvini etc. nakshatras being clubbed with Sayana rashis continued to be > followed at the time of Alberuni i.e. eleventh century in India. But a > member of Indiaarchaeology forum, Shri Paul Kekai Manansala, drew my > attention to the fact that Tropical Rashis could never be clubbed with > Ashvini, Bharni etc. nakshatras! > > That set me thinking again as to how the Puranas had talked of a sayana > rashichakra and also nakshatras, in one and the same breath, whereas the > Vedas talked about the nakshatras times without number but did not mention, > much less link them, with any Mesha etc. rashis, which were conspicuous by > their absence from the same! There was yet another dichotomy: The year as > per the Vedanga Jyotisha started from Uttarayana but the nakshatras started > from Kritiika as against Ashvini (as is happening these days) or Dhanishtha > where the Uttarayana was located then! > > It dawned on me much later in the day that nakshatras had nothing to do with > Madhu, Madhava etc. months---the real Vedic months instead of Mesha, Vrisha > etc. rashis---since the latter were/are seasonal and immune to the effects > of precession of equinoxes! Thus if the Vernal Equinox was the Vasanta > Sampat i.e when the day was equal to night in 10000 BCE, it will remain so > in 10000 AD as well, when the day will be equal to night again, irrespective > of the fact that if the VE was in nakshatra " A " (the first nakshatra of the > nakshatra chakra) in 10000 BCE, it may be in nakshatra " Z " (the last > nakshatra of that very nakshatra chakra) in 10000 AD, but Vernal Equinox > would continue to be Vasanta Sampat i.e., when day is equal to night! > Similarly, if Madhu was the first month of Vasanta Ritu (the month before > the VE) in 10000 BCE, it will be the first month of that very Vasanta Ritu > in 10000 AD as well, since the Vasanta Ritu (Spring season) will always > start a month prior to the Vernal Equinox, unaffected by precession of > equinoxes! > > It means that it is only Mesha, Vrisha etc. rashis that are creating the > confusion of so called sayana and nirayana and so on whereas there are no > such confusions and dichotomies in the Vedas or the Vedic months, much less > the Vedic seasons! > > In fact, the Vedic calendar is the most scientific and the most wonderful as > well beautiful calendar the world could ever have! It is unlike all the > other calendars the world over! It is directly linked to the four cardinal > points viz. the two equinoxes and two solstices and to the resulting Madhu, > Madhava etc. months. It is to those very Madhu, Madhava months to which the > synodic months are pegged! Thus the real Vedic synodic (what most people > call lunar) months are also immune to precession, since they are directly > linked to seasonal solar months! Thus if the lunar Vasanti Navratra > started with the first New Moon (Amanta---Shukla pratipat) after the month > of Madhu in 10000 BCE, it will start similarly in 10000 AD also, i.e., the > first New Moon after the month of Madhu---you may as well say the last new > Moon before the Vernal Equinox----will be the start of the lunar > Vasanti-Navratra- cum-Chaitra in 10000 AD also just as it was so in 10000 BC. > That will be the first month of Vasanta Ritu therefore in 10000 AD, as it > was in 10000 BCE. > > Thus when we say that Bhagwan Ram was born on Chaitra Shukla Navmi in > Vasanta Ritu, it was thus Shukla_navmi of the first lunar month of Vasanta > Ritu---the last New Moon before the Vernal Equinox---known as the month of > Madhu in the Vedanga Jyotisha---where there is no confusion of any Mesha, > Vrisha etc. rashis nor the so called sayana or nirayana etc. cacophony! > > This was a revelation to me that the Vedas were really without Mesha etc. > Rashis and that is why the Vedic calendar is the most scientific and a > durable one! If you peruse the history of Vedic calendar, it is only after > the introduction of Mehsa, Vrisha etc. rashis through the Surya Sidhanta of > Maya the mlechha that things have gone helter-skelter! We have become > completely delinked from the Madhu, Madhaa etc. months and the four cardinal > points and got hooked to Mesha, Vrisha etc. Rashis about which nobody knows > as to which rashi starts from where, if at all it starts from any point! > > Since I could not find any Mesha, Vrisha etc. rashis in the Vedas and the > Vedanga Jyotisha etc., I was just mad with rage as to how the Vedic seers > had been so negligent as not to talk about them at all, as all the > astrologers the world over had been dinning it into my ears that Mesha, > Vrisha etc. rashis were astronomical twelve equal divisions of the zodiac, > which in itself was " rock solid " ! > > I had therefore to delve deeper into astronomical works as well so as to see > as to what had gone wrong and where about the Vedic lore as to why the Seers > had not talked about Mesha, Vrisha etc. Rashis and Mangal, Shanie etc. > planets, when the whole world had been talking about the same over the last > at least two thousand years! > > To my surprise, I found that the Vedic seers were more advanced than all the > astronomers the world over put together a few thousand years back! > Astronomically, zodiac (the famous Rashichakra/ bhachakra of the sidhantas > and Puranas and jyotishis!) is nothing but " an imaginary belt of the heavens > centering on the ecliptic, within which are the apparent paths of the sun, > moon and principal planets " . Zodiac is actually a Greek word which in > itself means a " circle of animals " . It was actually divided into many more > parts---all of them unequal----than twelve and each part was known as a > constellation by Greek astronomers. Prominent among those constellations > were Aries, Taurus etc. thirteen (including Ophuchius) Greek > constellations- ---none equal to one another. These constellations are > supposed to have resembled some figures in the past e.g. a cluster of > millions and billions of stars is supposed to have resembled a Ram in the > hoary past by Babylonian astrologers, and yet another part resembled a Bull > and so on. That is why they named those portions as Aries, Taurus and so > on. Even those constellations no longer resemble those figures these days, > because of the Proper Motion of stars, but somehow, IAU is sill calling > those constellations by those very names. > > Those very unequal constellations were used by Greco-Chaldean astrologers > for astrological predictions, under the impression that since those " groups " > contained stars they were affecting every Tom, Dick and Harry through > " divine entities " like Mars, Jupiter, Saturn etc. etc. Instead of > considering the actual unequal imaginary constellations even for > predictions, they just divided the already imaginary zodiac into twelve > imaginary divisions, and called each division by the original name of Aries, > Taurus etc. Thus you will not find any astrological sign Aries, Taurus etc. > corresponding at all with the exact constellation of that very name e.g. > Astrological sign Aries is away by light years from the constellation Aries > and astrological sign Taurus is away by Light years from the constellation > Taurus and so on! Still jyotishis claim to be making correct predictions > from those very imaginary " equal animals " (Rashis) of imaginary " unequal > animals " (constellations) of a still more imaginary circle named zodiac > which extends about nine/ten degrees above and below of yet another > imaginary circle known as Ecliptic! My God! It is real imagination run > riot! > > NATURALLY, THE VEDIC SEERS WERE REAL SCIENTISTS NOT TO HAVE THOUGHT OF SUCH > IMAGINARY " TWELVE EQUAL ANIMAL DIVISIONS " OF " UNEQUAL ANIMALS " ! > > Anyway, coming back to our Vedic calendar, it was the same imaginary circle > of imaginary twelve imaginary animals that Maya the mlechha thrust on us and > we got dislodged completely from Madhu, Madhava etc. months and the real > Vedic nakshtras like Krittika, Mrigasira etc. > > Thus, if we really want to streamline our Vedic calendar and put it back on > the real Vedic track, we have to completely eliminate Mesha, Vrisha etc. > rashis from our vocabulary, just as the Vedic seers had done it, and delink > nakshatras completely from not only the non-existent rashis but even Madhu, > Madhava etc. months to which they were never linked, in the first place. > > If because of our infatuation with predictive gimmicks, we are unable to > forget Mesha, Vrisha etc. Rashis, then we must at the best or even at the > worst use the so called Sayana Rashis for the real Vedic months like Mina > for Madhu, Mesha for Madhava and so on, since that is what all the Puranas > and sidhantas have done. > > That way we can at least claim that we are celebrating our festivals in > accordance with the Puranas if not the Vedas! Nakshatras have to be > completely delinked from Rashis, whether sayana or nirayana, and after a > thorough debate, they may be pegged to the Junction Stars, if it is found > that they have really anything to do with their namesake nakshatra divisions > of the Vedas. If the scholars decide that the name-sake Junction stars also > were thrust by Maya the mlechha on us on the basis of Hipparchus' Star > catalogue or some other source and they have nothing to do with the Vedic > nakshatras, we may as well shun them and find some other way to decide the > Vedic nakshatras. > > The beauty of the Vedic calendar lies in the fact that it combines both the > lunar (synodic) and the solar months and years and pegs them to the natural > phenomenon of seasons. > > For example, the Muslim calendar is based purely on synodic months, and > since a synodic twelve month cycle is always short by about eleven days from > a solar year, that is why we find Muslim festivals receding back every year > by 11 days! Thus, if Id-uz-Zuha was (say) on December 31 in 1990, it would > have been on December 20 in 1991, on December 9 in 1992, November 29 in 1993 > and so on, with the result that after a period of about 33 years, it may be > back on December 31 in around 2023! Thus none of the festivals of Hejira > calendar remains stable! > > On the other hand, a Vedic Vasanti Navratra always starts with the first New > Moon after the start of Vasanta Ritu, since the " shortfall " of eleven days > in a lunar cycle of twelve months vis-à-vis a solar year is compensated by > an adhika-masa every 32/33 solar months. This adhika masa concept is in > fact found in the ancient most work viz. the Rigveda " Veda maso dhrita vrato > dwadasha prajavatah, veda ya upajayate " (Rigveda 1/25/8) i.e. " Varuna > knows the twelve months, it also knows the thirteenth (adhika) month " . > > If on the other hand, we peg the Hindu calendar to so called Lahiri or Raman > or Muladhara etc. Rashichakra, we are faced with a peculiar situation! We > are not following either Islamic calendar of a pure synodic months, nor are > we following the real Vedic calendar pegged to seasons! It is not even the > Pauranic calendar as that is aligned with sayana rashis! Nor is it a > geographical calendar, since that is dependent on the two Vishuvas and > Ayanasa! We are just between two stools---and have fallen to the ground > already! We are not celebrating Vasanta Navratras with the start of the > Vasanta Ritu, but after one month of that ritu is already over! WE are not > celebrating Sharadiya Navratras with the start of Sharad ritu but after one > month of that ritu is already over. If we continue to follow this pattern, > a day will come when we will celebrate Vasanti Navratras in Sharad Ritu and > vice-versa! > > If at all we have to hug any Makar or Mehsa or karkata etc. Sankrantis, we > must choose the lesser of two evils and embrace pauranic and sidhanti Makar, > Mesha etc. Sankrantis, which are all so called Sayana--- and shun Lahiri etc > Sankrantis. > > < I would like to request you to kindly make a post (or direct me to a post) > where we can identify the criteria for ascertaining the dates for the major > festivals of India.> > > I find that is not open to uploading files. Nor does it store > any attachments. I would request you to change this orientation so that > documents can be uploaded in the files section. That way, instead of > repeating everything in individual posts, it would be easier for me to give > the members all the information that is already stored in the files section > of Hinducalendar forum. As an alternative, since you are already a member > of the Hinducalendar forum, you can upload any file you want to from that > forum to jyotishgoup. Personally, I would recommend " koshur6.doc " , > BVB6.doc; rashi5.doc., npj3.doc, BVB5.doc, PAC3.doc, shankar1.doc etc. etc. > Kindly take time out to go through them and see it for yourself as to what > progress, if any, has already been made in the direction of calendar reform. > > <I would like to invite some of the scholars (and panchanga experts) to > comment on these criteria and also delve on how far have we moved away from > these criteria (rightly or wrongly).> > > You are most welcome to invite any scholar etc. to comment on these criteria > since that is what I actually want and that is why I am posting my mails on > every forum. I am posting separately " raman.doc " which will give you an > idea about the efforts that I have been making in this direction. > > < Just one thing, lets keep 'Vedic Astrologer' and 'Rashis' out of this > discussion as these are highly charged words!!> > > There is a saying in Hindi, " main to kambal ko chhod raha hoon, lekin kambal > mujhe nahin chhod raa hai " . The story goes like this: Some one mistook a > drowning bear for a woolen blanket of black colour and he jumped to collect > that blanket. The bear, like a drowning man catching at a straw, caught > hold of the savoir and would not leave him. A friend of the savoir from the > river-bank shouted, " Why don't you let the blanket go? " and pat came the > reply from the " man who mistook the bear for blanket, " I am trying to let > the `blanket' go, but it is not allowing me to go " . It is a similar story > with " Vedic astrology " and rashis vis-à-vis calendar reform. > > It is on record that over the last at least three centuries efforts have > been going on to put the " dismantled " Vedic calendar back on the track. > This is evident from S. B. Dikshit's " Bharatiya Jyotisha Shastra " . Similar > panchanga standardization committees were held in Varanasi, Ujjain etc. etc. > so much so that the Shankaracharya of Dwarka, more than a hundred years > back, even issued an aadesha patra that all the festivals should be > celebrated on the basis of sayana rashichakra. That aadesha patra also is > in Hinducalenar forum. The last such committee was the " Saha calendar > reform committee " appointed by the GOI in 1953. Unfortunately for India, > the net result of all such committees has been a fall back upon the same > Grahalaghava ayanamsha, which late N. C. Lahiri cunningly manipulated by his > devious methods by pegging it to an imaginary point that was conjunct the > Vernal Equinox of 285 AD that was supposed to be opposite the Spica star > then! It was actually a backdoor entry for Grahlaghava ayanamsha simply > because Lahiri's Indian Ephemeris (English) and his Vishudha Sidhanti > Panjika (Bangla) would not sell if he had switched over to zero ayanamsha or > even Revati Ayanamsha, as was suggested by all the stalwarts! > > This sabotage of the recommendations of the Saha Calenar Reform Committee > will be clear from PAC3.doc in the files section of Hinducalendar forum! > > As such, it is a humble request to all the jyotishis, whether they call > themselves Vedic or non-Vedic or even anti-Vedic, that they may use whatever > ayanamsha or whatever system of prediction they choose for making correct > predictions or patri melapak etc. etc., but they must leave calendar reform > alone and not thrust the " almighty " Lahiri or Muladhara etc. Rashichakra > down the throat of every Hindu. That is also a request to the Government of > India. > > Anybody who can do such a Herculean task will really be the messiah of the > real Vedic calendar. > > With regards, > > A K Kaul > > > > > > , " jyotishi " <raj@> wrote: > > > > Dear Kaul ji, > > You have categorically and critically claimed that we are celebrating > festivals on the wrong dates or in other words, the dates chosen for our > festivals (by the panchanga makers - including the govt of india) do not > follow the criteria available in our ancient texts for determining the dates > for each festival. > > > > I think we should have an open mind to review whether and to what extent > we are adhering to the criteria given in the ancient texts. In order to do > this, we need to first identify those criteria. > > > > Kaulji, I would like to request you to kindly make a post (or direct me to > a post) where we can identify the criteria for ascertaining the dates for > the major festivals of India. > > > > I would like to invite some of the scholars (and panchanga experts) to > comment on these criteria and also delve on how far have we moved away from > these criteria (rightly or wrongly). > > > > Just one thing, lets keep 'Vedic Astrologer' and 'Rashis' out of this > discussion as these are highly charged words!! > > > > regards, > > raj > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2009 Report Share Posted November 3, 2009 Thanks for the heads up. I am in the process of compiling the 'criteria' for celebrating all the major festivals of India (Hindu & Jain) so that we can objectively see which criterion is met and which is not for each festival. The criteria would include season, panchanga and cultural references. To me the issue does not seem to be seasonal v/s sidereal calendar (which also means Sayana v/s Nirayana). This has more to do with Assumptions made by various reform committees, ancient and modern texts that may or may not hold true today. warm regards, raj , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya wrote: > > Dear Rajji, > > There are Hindu festivals which require both the Sidereal calendar and the Seasonal (Tropical) calendar. For example the Harvest festival, which is observed by different communities, is a season-based festival as the agriculture depends on the Monsoon. which in turn is seasonal. If ceratin seasonal festivals are not being properly observed on the basis of season then one has every right to protest. > > However there are many festivals which depend on the Sidereal calendar. For example the Ram-Navami is to be observed on the Shukla-Navami day in the month of Chaitra. Valmiki Ramayana clearly mentions the month of Chaitra. It may be true that some portions of the Balakanda and the Uttarakanda could have been modified by Valmiki at a later date to project Lord Rama as God or it could even be that some other rishi could have added these two kandas to the Ramayana later on. Whatever may be the case one has to rely on the data given in the Ramayana. We cannot rely on other data if that goes against that data given in the Ramayaana. Some people may think that we have to observe the Ram-Navami in the month of Madhu as some later day texts have mentioned the month of madhu as the birth-month of Lord Rama. It could have been so at the time of Lord Rama but the seasonal months go on changing due to precession. That shows that we have to stick to what has > been given in the Valmiki Ramayana only. We have also to keep in mind that according to the Rigveda. the Moon is the maker of the month. Both the Purnimanta and the Amanta months are there in the Veda. The Lunar and Soli-Lunar months are Purnimanta and Amanta and these are based on the Purnima and Amavashya in the Nakshtras . I have shown in one of the earlier mails in the group that when Lord Rama was born the the Month was Chaitra and the Sun was around 183 degrees in the Chitra nakshatra and this points to the Purnimanta Chaitra month. > > Now let us take another case. The Kartika Vrata in month of Kartika is observed by the pious Hindus.The Kartika month is holy to the Hindus and it considered to be the month of Mother Radha. Tulsi pujan is also done in this month. Simalarly the Shravana month is observed by the Shiva bhaktas. Another example is the Ashadha Ekadashi, which is observed in the month of Ashadha. In the Bhagavad Gita Lord Krishna told about the month of Margashirsha. The Uttarakhanda of the Padma purana tells us about the importance of all these months, which are sidereal. It will go against the very basis of Hindu festivals if the Sidereal calendar is abolished. I think the Hindus being tolerant are tolerating this campaign of some people to abolish the sidereal calendar. but before people turn violent we have to see that this anti-Hindu campaign stops.. > > I am not against the Seasonal calendar. I feel that if it is possible let us accommodate the Seasonal calendar alongside the regular Sidereal calendar. Nobody in proper frame of mind can think of abolishing the Sidereal calendar. If there is opposition to the existence of Sidereal calendar then we should better forget about accommodating the seasonal calendar. > > Regards, > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > --- On Mon, 11/2/09, jyotishi <raj wrote: > > jyotishi <raj > Re: Hindu festivals > > Monday, November 2, 2009, 7:53 PM > > > > > > thank you. I will respond shortly. > > > > regards, > > raj > > > > , " jyotirved " <jyotirved@ ..> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Raj ji, > > > > > > Many thanks for your post regarding the above topic. > > > > > > I am really glad that a jyotishi also is taking interest in calendar reform! > > > > > > > > > <You have categorically and critically claimed that we are celebrating > > > festivals on the wrong dates or in other words, the dates chosen for our > > > festivals (by the panchanga makers - including the govt of india) do not > > > follow the criteria available in our ancient texts for determining the dates > > > for each festival. > > > > > > > You are absolutely right. These days we are celebrating all our festivals > > > neither as per the Vedas, nor Puranas nor sidhantas, and surprisingly, not > > > even as per Primary School level geography but only as per the whims and > > > fancies of some " almighties " like Lahiriwalas and Ramanawalas and so on. I > > > have made quite a few representations to all those who matter, including the > > > President of India, New Delhi; Postional Astronomy Centre and the India > > > Meteorological Department (publishers of Rashtriya Panchanga) etc. etc. in > > > this regard, as will be clear from the papers in the files section of > > > Hinducalendar forum. > > > The calendar reform has been a process of evolution for me personally on the > > > lines of the Vedas and the Puranas. To start with, I was totally enamoured > > > of Grahalghava etc. Makar Sankrantis and other festivals, and believe it or > > > not, it was through predictive astrology--- nirayana, with > > > Lahiri/Grahalaghava ayanamsha, of course!----that I started delving deep > > > into calendar reform! It was an inadvertent wake-up call for me, since when > > > I found quite a few predictions not coming true because of one ayanamsha, I > > > experimented with other ayanamshas, and finally delved deep into sidhantas > > > and the Puranas! > > > > > > From a perusal of all those puranas and sidhantas, I concluded that it was > > > the " Tropical zodiac " (Sayana Rashichakra) that was being followed by all > > > of them for festivals and by implication, the Pauranic and sidhantic > > > authorities must have been following it even for astrological predictions! > > > I therefore started a crusade for Tropical Zodiac i.e. Sayana Rashichakra, > > > presuming that since that was the basis of Pauranic festivals, it must be > > > the basis of not only Vedic festivals but even the real Vedic astrology. > > > That crusade lasted for a considerable period through my Panchangas and > > > surprisingly, I even made quite a few correct predictions on the basis of > > > Sayana Rashichakra and secondary progressions etc. For one of those > > > predictions, I was awarded NOSTRADAMUS Award by His Holiness of Kanchi > > > Kamakoti, Swami Jayendra Saraswati, at Kanchi, (and not at Delhi!). My to > > > and fro expenses of air-fair and stay at a five-star hotel in Chennai etc. > > > etc. apart from a cheque for Rs. 11000/- as back as 1995, also were borne > > > by Express Star Teller Magazine, who had started that award. That > > > strengthened my view that Tropical astrology was the real Vedic astrology, > > > which it is not, as we shall see shortly! > > > > > > Since " the greatest Vedic astrologer of the twentieth century " viz. Dr. B. > > > V. Raman etc. called the nirayana astrology as Vedic, I was intrigued as to > > > how could the Vedic Rashis be different from the Paurnic and sidhantic! I, > > > therefore, went through all the Vedas and the Vedanga Jyotisha etc. with a > > > tooth comb! > > > > > > As is common knowledge by now, there were/are absolutely no Mesha, Vrisha > > > etc. Rashis in the Vedas! So to call them sayana or nirayana was just > > > meaningless and tacking at the air! > > > > > > In my panchangas, I had been clubbing Ashvini, Bharni etc. nakshatras also > > > with Sayana Rashichakra since that was what was done by the Hindu > > > astrologers on the basis of the Surya Sidhanta. That very practice of > > > Ashvini etc. nakshatras being clubbed with Sayana rashis continued to be > > > followed at the time of Alberuni i.e. eleventh century in India. But a > > > member of Indiaarchaeology forum, Shri Paul Kekai Manansala, drew my > > > attention to the fact that Tropical Rashis could never be clubbed with > > > Ashvini, Bharni etc. nakshatras! > > > > > > That set me thinking again as to how the Puranas had talked of a sayana > > > rashichakra and also nakshatras, in one and the same breath, whereas the > > > Vedas talked about the nakshatras times without number but did not mention, > > > much less link them, with any Mesha etc. rashis, which were conspicuous by > > > their absence from the same! There was yet another dichotomy: The year as > > > per the Vedanga Jyotisha started from Uttarayana but the nakshatras started > > > from Kritiika as against Ashvini (as is happening these days) or Dhanishtha > > > where the Uttarayana was located then! > > > > > > It dawned on me much later in the day that nakshatras had nothing to do with > > > Madhu, Madhava etc. months---the real Vedic months instead of Mesha, Vrisha > > > etc. rashis---since the latter were/are seasonal and immune to the effects > > > of precession of equinoxes! Thus if the Vernal Equinox was the Vasanta > > > Sampat i.e when the day was equal to night in 10000 BCE, it will remain so > > > in 10000 AD as well, when the day will be equal to night again, irrespective > > > of the fact that if the VE was in nakshatra " A " (the first nakshatra of the > > > nakshatra chakra) in 10000 BCE, it may be in nakshatra " Z " (the last > > > nakshatra of that very nakshatra chakra) in 10000 AD, but Vernal Equinox > > > would continue to be Vasanta Sampat i.e., when day is equal to night! > > > Similarly, if Madhu was the first month of Vasanta Ritu (the month before > > > the VE) in 10000 BCE, it will be the first month of that very Vasanta Ritu > > > in 10000 AD as well, since the Vasanta Ritu (Spring season) will always > > > start a month prior to the Vernal Equinox, unaffected by precession of > > > equinoxes! > > > > > > It means that it is only Mesha, Vrisha etc. rashis that are creating the > > > confusion of so called sayana and nirayana and so on whereas there are no > > > such confusions and dichotomies in the Vedas or the Vedic months, much less > > > the Vedic seasons! > > > > > > In fact, the Vedic calendar is the most scientific and the most wonderful as > > > well beautiful calendar the world could ever have! It is unlike all the > > > other calendars the world over! It is directly linked to the four cardinal > > > points viz. the two equinoxes and two solstices and to the resulting Madhu, > > > Madhava etc. months. It is to those very Madhu, Madhava months to which the > > > synodic months are pegged! Thus the real Vedic synodic (what most people > > > call lunar) months are also immune to precession, since they are directly > > > linked to seasonal solar months! Thus if the lunar Vasanti Navratra > > > started with the first New Moon (Amanta---Shukla pratipat) after the month > > > of Madhu in 10000 BCE, it will start similarly in 10000 AD also, i.e., the > > > first New Moon after the month of Madhu---you may as well say the last new > > > Moon before the Vernal Equinox----will be the start of the lunar > > > Vasanti-Navratra- cum-Chaitra in 10000 AD also just as it was so in 10000 BC. > > > That will be the first month of Vasanta Ritu therefore in 10000 AD, as it > > > was in 10000 BCE. > > > > > > Thus when we say that Bhagwan Ram was born on Chaitra Shukla Navmi in > > > Vasanta Ritu, it was thus Shukla_navmi of the first lunar month of Vasanta > > > Ritu---the last New Moon before the Vernal Equinox---known as the month of > > > Madhu in the Vedanga Jyotisha---where there is no confusion of any Mesha, > > > Vrisha etc. rashis nor the so called sayana or nirayana etc. cacophony! > > > > > > This was a revelation to me that the Vedas were really without Mesha etc. > > > Rashis and that is why the Vedic calendar is the most scientific and a > > > durable one! If you peruse the history of Vedic calendar, it is only after > > > the introduction of Mehsa, Vrisha etc. rashis through the Surya Sidhanta of > > > Maya the mlechha that things have gone helter-skelter! We have become > > > completely delinked from the Madhu, Madhaa etc. months and the four cardinal > > > points and got hooked to Mesha, Vrisha etc. Rashis about which nobody knows > > > as to which rashi starts from where, if at all it starts from any point! > > > > > > Since I could not find any Mesha, Vrisha etc. rashis in the Vedas and the > > > Vedanga Jyotisha etc., I was just mad with rage as to how the Vedic seers > > > had been so negligent as not to talk about them at all, as all the > > > astrologers the world over had been dinning it into my ears that Mesha, > > > Vrisha etc. rashis were astronomical twelve equal divisions of the zodiac, > > > which in itself was " rock solid " ! > > > > > > I had therefore to delve deeper into astronomical works as well so as to see > > > as to what had gone wrong and where about the Vedic lore as to why the Seers > > > had not talked about Mesha, Vrisha etc. Rashis and Mangal, Shanie etc. > > > planets, when the whole world had been talking about the same over the last > > > at least two thousand years! > > > > > > To my surprise, I found that the Vedic seers were more advanced than all the > > > astronomers the world over put together a few thousand years back! > > > Astronomically, zodiac (the famous Rashichakra/ bhachakra of the sidhantas > > > and Puranas and jyotishis!) is nothing but " an imaginary belt of the heavens > > > centering on the ecliptic, within which are the apparent paths of the sun, > > > moon and principal planets " . Zodiac is actually a Greek word which in > > > itself means a " circle of animals " . It was actually divided into many more > > > parts---all of them unequal----than twelve and each part was known as a > > > constellation by Greek astronomers. Prominent among those constellations > > > were Aries, Taurus etc. thirteen (including Ophuchius) Greek > > > constellations- ---none equal to one another. These constellations are > > > supposed to have resembled some figures in the past e.g. a cluster of > > > millions and billions of stars is supposed to have resembled a Ram in the > > > hoary past by Babylonian astrologers, and yet another part resembled a Bull > > > and so on. That is why they named those portions as Aries, Taurus and so > > > on. Even those constellations no longer resemble those figures these days, > > > because of the Proper Motion of stars, but somehow, IAU is sill calling > > > those constellations by those very names. > > > > > > Those very unequal constellations were used by Greco-Chaldean astrologers > > > for astrological predictions, under the impression that since those " groups " > > > contained stars they were affecting every Tom, Dick and Harry through > > > " divine entities " like Mars, Jupiter, Saturn etc. etc. Instead of > > > considering the actual unequal imaginary constellations even for > > > predictions, they just divided the already imaginary zodiac into twelve > > > imaginary divisions, and called each division by the original name of Aries, > > > Taurus etc. Thus you will not find any astrological sign Aries, Taurus etc. > > > corresponding at all with the exact constellation of that very name e.g. > > > Astrological sign Aries is away by light years from the constellation Aries > > > and astrological sign Taurus is away by Light years from the constellation > > > Taurus and so on! Still jyotishis claim to be making correct predictions > > > from those very imaginary " equal animals " (Rashis) of imaginary " unequal > > > animals " (constellations) of a still more imaginary circle named zodiac > > > which extends about nine/ten degrees above and below of yet another > > > imaginary circle known as Ecliptic! My God! It is real imagination run > > > riot! > > > > > > NATURALLY, THE VEDIC SEERS WERE REAL SCIENTISTS NOT TO HAVE THOUGHT OF SUCH > > > IMAGINARY " TWELVE EQUAL ANIMAL DIVISIONS " OF " UNEQUAL ANIMALS " ! > > > > > > Anyway, coming back to our Vedic calendar, it was the same imaginary circle > > > of imaginary twelve imaginary animals that Maya the mlechha thrust on us and > > > we got dislodged completely from Madhu, Madhava etc. months and the real > > > Vedic nakshtras like Krittika, Mrigasira etc. > > > > > > Thus, if we really want to streamline our Vedic calendar and put it back on > > > the real Vedic track, we have to completely eliminate Mesha, Vrisha etc. > > > rashis from our vocabulary, just as the Vedic seers had done it, and delink > > > nakshatras completely from not only the non-existent rashis but even Madhu, > > > Madhava etc. months to which they were never linked, in the first place. > > > > > > If because of our infatuation with predictive gimmicks, we are unable to > > > forget Mesha, Vrisha etc. Rashis, then we must at the best or even at the > > > worst use the so called Sayana Rashis for the real Vedic months like Mina > > > for Madhu, Mesha for Madhava and so on, since that is what all the Puranas > > > and sidhantas have done. > > > > > > That way we can at least claim that we are celebrating our festivals in > > > accordance with the Puranas if not the Vedas! Nakshatras have to be > > > completely delinked from Rashis, whether sayana or nirayana, and after a > > > thorough debate, they may be pegged to the Junction Stars, if it is found > > > that they have really anything to do with their namesake nakshatra divisions > > > of the Vedas. If the scholars decide that the name-sake Junction stars also > > > were thrust by Maya the mlechha on us on the basis of Hipparchus' Star > > > catalogue or some other source and they have nothing to do with the Vedic > > > nakshatras, we may as well shun them and find some other way to decide the > > > Vedic nakshatras. > > > > > > The beauty of the Vedic calendar lies in the fact that it combines both the > > > lunar (synodic) and the solar months and years and pegs them to the natural > > > phenomenon of seasons. > > > > > > For example, the Muslim calendar is based purely on synodic months, and > > > since a synodic twelve month cycle is always short by about eleven days from > > > a solar year, that is why we find Muslim festivals receding back every year > > > by 11 days! Thus, if Id-uz-Zuha was (say) on December 31 in 1990, it would > > > have been on December 20 in 1991, on December 9 in 1992, November 29 in 1993 > > > and so on, with the result that after a period of about 33 years, it may be > > > back on December 31 in around 2023! Thus none of the festivals of Hejira > > > calendar remains stable! > > > > > > On the other hand, a Vedic Vasanti Navratra always starts with the first New > > > Moon after the start of Vasanta Ritu, since the " shortfall " of eleven days > > > in a lunar cycle of twelve months vis-à-vis a solar year is compensated by > > > an adhika-masa every 32/33 solar months. This adhika masa concept is in > > > fact found in the ancient most work viz. the Rigveda " Veda maso dhrita vrato > > > dwadasha prajavatah, veda ya upajayate " (Rigveda 1/25/8) i.e. " Varuna > > > knows the twelve months, it also knows the thirteenth (adhika) month " . > > > > > > If on the other hand, we peg the Hindu calendar to so called Lahiri or Raman > > > or Muladhara etc. Rashichakra, we are faced with a peculiar situation! We > > > are not following either Islamic calendar of a pure synodic months, nor are > > > we following the real Vedic calendar pegged to seasons! It is not even the > > > Pauranic calendar as that is aligned with sayana rashis! Nor is it a > > > geographical calendar, since that is dependent on the two Vishuvas and > > > Ayanasa! We are just between two stools---and have fallen to the ground > > > already! We are not celebrating Vasanta Navratras with the start of the > > > Vasanta Ritu, but after one month of that ritu is already over! WE are not > > > celebrating Sharadiya Navratras with the start of Sharad ritu but after one > > > month of that ritu is already over. If we continue to follow this pattern, > > > a day will come when we will celebrate Vasanti Navratras in Sharad Ritu and > > > vice-versa! > > > > > > If at all we have to hug any Makar or Mehsa or karkata etc. Sankrantis, we > > > must choose the lesser of two evils and embrace pauranic and sidhanti Makar, > > > Mesha etc. Sankrantis, which are all so called Sayana--- and shun Lahiri etc > > > Sankrantis. > > > > > > < I would like to request you to kindly make a post (or direct me to a post) > > > where we can identify the criteria for ascertaining the dates for the major > > > festivals of India.> > > > > > > I find that is not open to uploading files. Nor does it store > > > any attachments. I would request you to change this orientation so that > > > documents can be uploaded in the files section. That way, instead of > > > repeating everything in individual posts, it would be easier for me to give > > > the members all the information that is already stored in the files section > > > of Hinducalendar forum. As an alternative, since you are already a member > > > of the Hinducalendar forum, you can upload any file you want to from that > > > forum to jyotishgoup. Personally, I would recommend " koshur6.doc " , > > > BVB6.doc; rashi5.doc., npj3.doc, BVB5.doc, PAC3.doc, shankar1.doc etc. etc. > > > Kindly take time out to go through them and see it for yourself as to what > > > progress, if any, has already been made in the direction of calendar reform. > > > > > > <I would like to invite some of the scholars (and panchanga experts) to > > > comment on these criteria and also delve on how far have we moved away from > > > these criteria (rightly or wrongly).> > > > > > > You are most welcome to invite any scholar etc. to comment on these criteria > > > since that is what I actually want and that is why I am posting my mails on > > > every forum. I am posting separately " raman.doc " which will give you an > > > idea about the efforts that I have been making in this direction. > > > > > > < Just one thing, lets keep 'Vedic Astrologer' and 'Rashis' out of this > > > discussion as these are highly charged words!!> > > > > > > There is a saying in Hindi, " main to kambal ko chhod raha hoon, lekin kambal > > > mujhe nahin chhod raa hai " . The story goes like this: Some one mistook a > > > drowning bear for a woolen blanket of black colour and he jumped to collect > > > that blanket. The bear, like a drowning man catching at a straw, caught > > > hold of the savoir and would not leave him. A friend of the savoir from the > > > river-bank shouted, " Why don't you let the blanket go? " and pat came the > > > reply from the " man who mistook the bear for blanket, " I am trying to let > > > the `blanket' go, but it is not allowing me to go " . It is a similar story > > > with " Vedic astrology " and rashis vis-à-vis calendar reform. > > > > > > It is on record that over the last at least three centuries efforts have > > > been going on to put the " dismantled " Vedic calendar back on the track. > > > This is evident from S. B. Dikshit's " Bharatiya Jyotisha Shastra " . Similar > > > panchanga standardization committees were held in Varanasi, Ujjain etc. etc. > > > so much so that the Shankaracharya of Dwarka, more than a hundred years > > > back, even issued an aadesha patra that all the festivals should be > > > celebrated on the basis of sayana rashichakra. That aadesha patra also is > > > in Hinducalenar forum. The last such committee was the " Saha calendar > > > reform committee " appointed by the GOI in 1953. Unfortunately for India, > > > the net result of all such committees has been a fall back upon the same > > > Grahalaghava ayanamsha, which late N. C. Lahiri cunningly manipulated by his > > > devious methods by pegging it to an imaginary point that was conjunct the > > > Vernal Equinox of 285 AD that was supposed to be opposite the Spica star > > > then! It was actually a backdoor entry for Grahlaghava ayanamsha simply > > > because Lahiri's Indian Ephemeris (English) and his Vishudha Sidhanti > > > Panjika (Bangla) would not sell if he had switched over to zero ayanamsha or > > > even Revati Ayanamsha, as was suggested by all the stalwarts! > > > > > > This sabotage of the recommendations of the Saha Calenar Reform Committee > > > will be clear from PAC3.doc in the files section of Hinducalendar forum! > > > > > > As such, it is a humble request to all the jyotishis, whether they call > > > themselves Vedic or non-Vedic or even anti-Vedic, that they may use whatever > > > ayanamsha or whatever system of prediction they choose for making correct > > > predictions or patri melapak etc. etc., but they must leave calendar reform > > > alone and not thrust the " almighty " Lahiri or Muladhara etc. Rashichakra > > > down the throat of every Hindu. That is also a request to the Government of > > > India. > > > > > > Anybody who can do such a Herculean task will really be the messiah of the > > > real Vedic calendar. > > > > > > With regards, > > > > > > A K Kaul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " jyotishi " <raj@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Kaul ji, > > > > You have categorically and critically claimed that we are celebrating > > > festivals on the wrong dates or in other words, the dates chosen for our > > > festivals (by the panchanga makers - including the govt of india) do not > > > follow the criteria available in our ancient texts for determining the dates > > > for each festival. > > > > > > > > I think we should have an open mind to review whether and to what extent > > > we are adhering to the criteria given in the ancient texts. In order to do > > > this, we need to first identify those criteria. > > > > > > > > Kaulji, I would like to request you to kindly make a post (or direct me to > > > a post) where we can identify the criteria for ascertaining the dates for > > > the major festivals of India. > > > > > > > > I would like to invite some of the scholars (and panchanga experts) to > > > comment on these criteria and also delve on how far have we moved away from > > > these criteria (rightly or wrongly). > > > > > > > > Just one thing, lets keep 'Vedic Astrologer' and 'Rashis' out of this > > > discussion as these are highly charged words!! > > > > > > > > regards, > > > > raj > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2009 Report Share Posted November 3, 2009 Dear Sunil Bhattacharyaji, namaskar! Are you such an atheist that you see no logic in the timely celebration of the festivals? If the festivals are not to be properly timed then what is to be? The whole society suffers if the festivals are untimely. All believers know this. Do you not? Hari Malla , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya wrote: > > Dear Kursijaji, > > Yes I agree. These are the issues, which make one think. Nothing can be bulldozed. In many cases consensus would give the solution. Surprisingly the people, who do not believe in the predictive astrology and in Paroksha interpretation ie. who wants only and only direct tangible proof and effects, are raising the bogey, by making baseless prediction, that calamity will befall as the festivals are not being observed in the right time. Can they explain their prediction? > > Regards, > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > --- On Mon, 11/2/09, S.C. Kursija <sckursija wrote: > > S.C. Kursija <sckursija > Re: Re: Re: Hindu festivals > > Monday, November 2, 2009, 10:36 PM > > > > > > Respected Sh.Sunil Bhattacharya ji, > I agree with you that our festival are dependent on Sidereal and Tropical calender. Diwali is a finance function / material function. It should be performed in auspicious muhural. But Diwali is not a auspicious muhurat. Sun is debilitated, Moon is combust and going to be debilitated. So please why we celebrate Diwali festival? > > --- On Tue, 11/3/09, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya @> wrote: > > > Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya @> > [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Re: Hindu festivals > > Tuesday, November 3, 2009, 11:25 AM > > > > > > Dear Rajji, > > There are Hindu festivals which require both the Sidereal calendar and the Seasonal (Tropical) calendar. For example the Harvest festival, which is observed by different communities, is a season-based festival as the agriculture depends on the Monsoon. which in turn is seasonal. If ceratin seasonal festivals are not being properly observed on the basis of season then one has every right to protest. > > However there are many festivals which depend on the Sidereal calendar. For example the Ram-Navami is to be observed on the Shukla-Navami day in the month of Chaitra. Valmiki Ramayana clearly mentions the month of Chaitra. It may be true that some portions of the Balakanda and the Uttarakanda could have been modified by Valmiki at a later date to project Lord Rama as God or it could even be that some other rishi could have added these two kandas to the Ramayana later on. Whatever may be the > case one has to rely on the data given in the Ramayana. We cannot rely on other data if that goes against that data given in the Ramayaana. Some people may think that we have to observe the Ram-Navami in the month of Madhu as some later day texts have mentioned the month of madhu as the birth-month of Lord Rama. It could have been so at the time of Lord Rama but the seasonal months go on changing due to precession. That shows that we have to stick to what has been given in the Valmiki Ramayana only. We have also to keep in mind that according to the Rigveda. the Moon is the maker of the month. Both the Purnimanta and the Amanta months are there in the Veda. The Lunar and Soli-Lunar months are Purnimanta and Amanta and these are based on the Purnima and Amavashya in the Nakshtras . I have shown in one of the earlier mails in the group that when Lord Rama was born the the Month was Chaitra and the Sun was around 183 degrees in the Chitra > nakshatra and this points to the Purnimanta Chaitra month. > > Now let us take another case. The Kartika Vrata in month of Kartika is observed by the pious Hindus.The Kartika month is holy to the Hindus and it considered to be the month of Mother Radha. Tulsi pujan is also done in this month. Simalarly the Shravana month is observed by the Shiva bhaktas. Another example is the Ashadha Ekadashi, which is observed in the month of Ashadha. In the Bhagavad Gita Lord Krishna told about the month of Margashirsha. The Uttarakhanda of the Padma purana tells us about the importance of all these months, which are sidereal. It will go against the very basis of Hindu festivals if the Sidereal calendar is abolished. I think the Hindus being tolerant are tolerating this campaign of some people to abolish the sidereal calendar. but before people turn violent we have to see that this anti-Hindu campaign stops.. > > I am not against the Seasonal > calendar. I feel that if it is possible let us accommodate the Seasonal calendar alongside the regular Sidereal calendar. Nobody in proper frame of mind can think of abolishing the Sidereal calendar. If there is opposition to the existence of Sidereal calendar then we should better forget about accommodating the seasonal calendar. > > Regards, > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > --- On Mon, 11/2/09, jyotishi <raj (AT) jyotishi (DOT) org> wrote: > > > jyotishi <raj (AT) jyotishi (DOT) org> > Re: Hindu festivals > > Monday, November 2, 2009, 7:53 PM > > > > > thank you. I will respond shortly. > > regards, > raj > > , " jyotirved " <jyotirved@ ..> wrote: > > > > Dear Raj ji, > > > > Many thanks for your post regarding the above topic. > > > > I am really glad that a jyotishi also is taking interest in calendar reform! > > > > > > <You have categorically and critically claimed that we are celebrating > > festivals on the wrong dates or in other words, the dates chosen for our > > festivals (by the panchanga makers - including the govt of india) do not > > follow the criteria available in our ancient texts for determining the dates > > for each festival. > > > > > You are absolutely right. These days we are celebrating all our festivals > > neither as per the Vedas, nor Puranas nor sidhantas, and surprisingly, not > > even as per Primary School level geography > but only as per the whims and > > fancies of some " almighties " like Lahiriwalas and Ramanawalas and so on. I > > have made quite a few representations to all those who matter, including the > > President of India, New Delhi; Postional Astronomy Centre and the India > > Meteorological Department (publishers of Rashtriya Panchanga) etc. etc. in > > this regard, as will be clear from the papers in the files section of > > Hinducalendar forum. > > The calendar reform has been a process of evolution for me personally on the > > lines of the Vedas and the Puranas. To start with, I was totally enamoured > > of Grahalghava etc. Makar Sankrantis and other festivals, and believe it or > > not, it was through predictive astrology--- nirayana, with > > Lahiri/Grahalaghava ayanamsha, of course!----that I started delving deep > > into calendar reform! It was an inadvertent wake-up call for me, since when > > I found > quite a few predictions not coming true because of one ayanamsha, I > > experimented with other ayanamshas, and finally delved deep into sidhantas > > and the Puranas! > > > > From a perusal of all those puranas and sidhantas, I concluded that it was > > the " Tropical zodiac " (Sayana Rashichakra) that was being followed by all > > of them for festivals and by implication, the Pauranic and sidhantic > > authorities must have been following it even for astrological predictions! > > I therefore started a crusade for Tropical Zodiac i.e. Sayana Rashichakra, > > presuming that since that was the basis of Pauranic festivals, it must be > > the basis of not only Vedic festivals but even the real Vedic astrology. > > That crusade lasted for a considerable period through my Panchangas and > > surprisingly, I even made quite a few correct predictions on the basis of > > Sayana Rashichakra and secondary > progressions etc. For one of those > > predictions, I was awarded NOSTRADAMUS Award by His Holiness of Kanchi > > Kamakoti, Swami Jayendra Saraswati, at Kanchi, (and not at Delhi!). My to > > and fro expenses of air-fair and stay at a five-star hotel in Chennai etc. > > etc. apart from a cheque for Rs. 11000/- as back as 1995, also were borne > > by Express Star Teller Magazine, who had started that award. That > > strengthened my view that Tropical astrology was the real Vedic astrology, > > which it is not, as we shall see shortly! > > > > Since " the greatest Vedic astrologer of the twentieth century " viz. Dr. B. > > V. Raman etc. called the nirayana astrology as Vedic, I was intrigued as to > > how could the Vedic Rashis be different from the Paurnic and sidhantic! I, > > therefore, went through all the Vedas and the Vedanga Jyotisha etc. with a > > tooth comb! > > > > As is common > knowledge by now, there were/are absolutely no Mesha, Vrisha > > etc. Rashis in the Vedas! So to call them sayana or nirayana was just > > meaningless and tacking at the air! > > > > In my panchangas, I had been clubbing Ashvini, Bharni etc. nakshatras also > > with Sayana Rashichakra since that was what was done by the Hindu > > astrologers on the basis of the Surya Sidhanta. That very practice of > > Ashvini etc. nakshatras being clubbed with Sayana rashis continued to be > > followed at the time of Alberuni i.e. eleventh century in India. But a > > member of Indiaarchaeology forum, Shri Paul Kekai Manansala, drew my > > attention to the fact that Tropical Rashis could never be clubbed with > > Ashvini, Bharni etc. nakshatras! > > > > That set me thinking again as to how the Puranas had talked of a sayana > > rashichakra and also nakshatras, in one and the same breath, whereas the > > Vedas > talked about the nakshatras times without number but did not mention, > > much less link them, with any Mesha etc. rashis, which were conspicuous by > > their absence from the same! There was yet another dichotomy: The year as > > per the Vedanga Jyotisha started from Uttarayana but the nakshatras started > > from Kritiika as against Ashvini (as is happening these days) or Dhanishtha > > where the Uttarayana was located then! > > > > It dawned on me much later in the day that nakshatras had nothing to do with > > Madhu, Madhava etc. months---the real Vedic months instead of Mesha, Vrisha > > etc. rashis---since the latter were/are seasonal and immune to the effects > > of precession of equinoxes! Thus if the Vernal Equinox was the Vasanta > > Sampat i.e when the day was equal to night in 10000 BCE, it will remain so > > in 10000 AD as well, when the day will be equal to night again, irrespective > > > of the fact that if the VE was in nakshatra " A " (the first nakshatra of the > > nakshatra chakra) in 10000 BCE, it may be in nakshatra " Z " (the last > > nakshatra of that very nakshatra chakra) in 10000 AD, but Vernal Equinox > > would continue to be Vasanta Sampat i.e., when day is equal to night! > > Similarly, if Madhu was the first month of Vasanta Ritu (the month before > > the VE) in 10000 BCE, it will be the first month of that very Vasanta Ritu > > in 10000 AD as well, since the Vasanta Ritu (Spring season) will always > > start a month prior to the Vernal Equinox, unaffected by precession of > > equinoxes! > > > > It means that it is only Mesha, Vrisha etc. rashis that are creating the > > confusion of so called sayana and nirayana and so on whereas there are no > > such confusions and dichotomies in the Vedas or the Vedic months, much less > > the Vedic seasons! > > > > In fact, > the Vedic calendar is the most scientific and the most wonderful as > > well beautiful calendar the world could ever have! It is unlike all the > > other calendars the world over! It is directly linked to the four cardinal > > points viz. the two equinoxes and two solstices and to the resulting Madhu, > > Madhava etc. months. It is to those very Madhu, Madhava months to which the > > synodic months are pegged! Thus the real Vedic synodic (what most people > > call lunar) months are also immune to precession, since they are directly > > linked to seasonal solar months! Thus if the lunar Vasanti Navratra > > started with the first New Moon (Amanta---Shukla pratipat) after the month > > of Madhu in 10000 BCE, it will start similarly in 10000 AD also, i.e., the > > first New Moon after the month of Madhu---you may as well say the last new > > Moon before the Vernal Equinox----will be the start of the lunar > > > Vasanti-Navratra- cum-Chaitra in 10000 AD also just as it was so in 10000 BC. > > That will be the first month of Vasanta Ritu therefore in 10000 AD, as it > > was in 10000 BCE. > > > > Thus when we say that Bhagwan Ram was born on Chaitra Shukla Navmi in > > Vasanta Ritu, it was thus Shukla_navmi of the first lunar month of Vasanta > > Ritu---the last New Moon before the Vernal Equinox---known as the month of > > Madhu in the Vedanga Jyotisha---where there is no confusion of any Mesha, > > Vrisha etc. rashis nor the so called sayana or nirayana etc. cacophony! > > > > This was a revelation to me that the Vedas were really without Mesha etc. > > Rashis and that is why the Vedic calendar is the most scientific and a > > durable one! If you peruse the history of Vedic calendar, it is only after > > the introduction of Mehsa, Vrisha etc. rashis through the Surya Sidhanta of > > Maya the mlechha that > things have gone helter-skelter! We have become > > completely delinked from the Madhu, Madhaa etc. months and the four cardinal > > points and got hooked to Mesha, Vrisha etc. Rashis about which nobody knows > > as to which rashi starts from where, if at all it starts from any point! > > > > Since I could not find any Mesha, Vrisha etc. rashis in the Vedas and the > > Vedanga Jyotisha etc., I was just mad with rage as to how the Vedic seers > > had been so negligent as not to talk about them at all, as all the > > astrologers the world over had been dinning it into my ears that Mesha, > > Vrisha etc. rashis were astronomical twelve equal divisions of the zodiac, > > which in itself was " rock solid " ! > > > > I had therefore to delve deeper into astronomical works as well so as to see > > as to what had gone wrong and where about the Vedic lore as to why the Seers > > had not talked about Mesha, > Vrisha etc. Rashis and Mangal, Shanie etc. > > planets, when the whole world had been talking about the same over the last > > at least two thousand years! > > > > To my surprise, I found that the Vedic seers were more advanced than all the > > astronomers the world over put together a few thousand years back! > > Astronomically, zodiac (the famous Rashichakra/ bhachakra of the sidhantas > > and Puranas and jyotishis!) is nothing but " an imaginary belt of the heavens > > centering on the ecliptic, within which are the apparent paths of the sun, > > moon and principal planets " . Zodiac is actually a Greek word which in > > itself means a " circle of animals " . It was actually divided into many more > > parts---all of them unequal----than twelve and each part was known as a > > constellation by Greek astronomers. Prominent among those constellations > > were Aries, Taurus etc. thirteen (including > Ophuchius) Greek > > constellations- ---none equal to one another. These constellations are > > supposed to have resembled some figures in the past e.g. a cluster of > > millions and billions of stars is supposed to have resembled a Ram in the > > hoary past by Babylonian astrologers, and yet another part resembled a Bull > > and so on. That is why they named those portions as Aries, Taurus and so > > on. Even those constellations no longer resemble those figures these days, > > because of the Proper Motion of stars, but somehow, IAU is sill calling > > those constellations by those very names. > > > > Those very unequal constellations were used by Greco-Chaldean astrologers > > for astrological predictions, under the impression that since those " groups " > > contained stars they were affecting every Tom, Dick and Harry through > > " divine entities " like Mars, Jupiter, Saturn etc. etc. Instead > of > > considering the actual unequal imaginary constellations even for > > predictions, they just divided the already imaginary zodiac into twelve > > imaginary divisions, and called each division by the original name of Aries, > > Taurus etc. Thus you will not find any astrological sign Aries, Taurus etc. > > corresponding at all with the exact constellation of that very name e.g. > > Astrological sign Aries is away by light years from the constellation Aries > > and astrological sign Taurus is away by Light years from the constellation > > Taurus and so on! Still jyotishis claim to be making correct predictions > > from those very imaginary " equal animals " (Rashis) of imaginary " unequal > > animals " (constellations) of a still more imaginary circle named zodiac > > which extends about nine/ten degrees above and below of yet another > > imaginary circle known as Ecliptic! My God! It is real imagination > run > > riot! > > > > NATURALLY, THE VEDIC SEERS WERE REAL SCIENTISTS NOT TO HAVE THOUGHT OF SUCH > > IMAGINARY " TWELVE EQUAL ANIMAL DIVISIONS " OF " UNEQUAL ANIMALS " ! > > > > Anyway, coming back to our Vedic calendar, it was the same imaginary circle > > of imaginary twelve imaginary animals that Maya the mlechha thrust on us and > > we got dislodged completely from Madhu, Madhava etc. months and the real > > Vedic nakshtras like Krittika, Mrigasira etc. > > > > Thus, if we really want to streamline our Vedic calendar and put it back on > > the real Vedic track, we have to completely eliminate Mesha, Vrisha etc. > > rashis from our vocabulary, just as the Vedic seers had done it, and delink > > nakshatras completely from not only the non-existent rashis but even Madhu, > > Madhava etc. months to which they were never linked, in the first place. > > > > If because of our infatuation > with predictive gimmicks, we are unable to > > forget Mesha, Vrisha etc. Rashis, then we must at the best or even at the > > worst use the so called Sayana Rashis for the real Vedic months like Mina > > for Madhu, Mesha for Madhava and so on, since that is what all the Puranas > > and sidhantas have done. > > > > That way we can at least claim that we are celebrating our festivals in > > accordance with the Puranas if not the Vedas! Nakshatras have to be > > completely delinked from Rashis, whether sayana or nirayana, and after a > > thorough debate, they may be pegged to the Junction Stars, if it is found > > that they have really anything to do with their namesake nakshatra divisions > > of the Vedas. If the scholars decide that the name-sake Junction stars also > > were thrust by Maya the mlechha on us on the basis of Hipparchus' Star > > catalogue or some other source and they have nothing to do > with the Vedic > > nakshatras, we may as well shun them and find some other way to decide the > > Vedic nakshatras. > > > > The beauty of the Vedic calendar lies in the fact that it combines both the > > lunar (synodic) and the solar months and years and pegs them to the natural > > phenomenon of seasons. > > > > For example, the Muslim calendar is based purely on synodic months, and > > since a synodic twelve month cycle is always short by about eleven days from > > a solar year, that is why we find Muslim festivals receding back every year > > by 11 days! Thus, if Id-uz-Zuha was (say) on December 31 in 1990, it would > > have been on December 20 in 1991, on December 9 in 1992, November 29 in 1993 > > and so on, with the result that after a period of about 33 years, it may be > > back on December 31 in around 2023! Thus none of the festivals of Hejira > > calendar remains stable! > > > > > On the other hand, a Vedic Vasanti Navratra always starts with the first New > > Moon after the start of Vasanta Ritu, since the " shortfall " of eleven days > > in a lunar cycle of twelve months vis-à-vis a solar year is compensated by > > an adhika-masa every 32/33 solar months. This adhika masa concept is in > > fact found in the ancient most work viz. the Rigveda " Veda maso dhrita vrato > > dwadasha prajavatah, veda ya upajayate " (Rigveda 1/25/8) i.e. " Varuna > > knows the twelve months, it also knows the thirteenth (adhika) month " . > > > > If on the other hand, we peg the Hindu calendar to so called Lahiri or Raman > > or Muladhara etc. Rashichakra, we are faced with a peculiar situation! We > > are not following either Islamic calendar of a pure synodic months, nor are > > we following the real Vedic calendar pegged to seasons! It is not even the > > Pauranic calendar as that is aligned with > sayana rashis! Nor is it a > > geographical calendar, since that is dependent on the two Vishuvas and > > Ayanasa! We are just between two stools---and have fallen to the ground > > already! We are not celebrating Vasanta Navratras with the start of the > > Vasanta Ritu, but after one month of that ritu is already over! WE are not > > celebrating Sharadiya Navratras with the start of Sharad ritu but after one > > month of that ritu is already over. If we continue to follow this pattern, > > a day will come when we will celebrate Vasanti Navratras in Sharad Ritu and > > vice-versa! > > > > If at all we have to hug any Makar or Mehsa or karkata etc. Sankrantis, we > > must choose the lesser of two evils and embrace pauranic and sidhanti Makar, > > Mesha etc. Sankrantis, which are all so called Sayana--- and shun Lahiri etc > > Sankrantis. > > > > < I would like to request you to kindly make > a post (or direct me to a post) > > where we can identify the criteria for ascertaining the dates for the major > > festivals of India.> > > > > I find that is not open to uploading files. Nor does it store > > any attachments. I would request you to change this orientation so that > > documents can be uploaded in the files section. That way, instead of > > repeating everything in individual posts, it would be easier for me to give > > the members all the information that is already stored in the files section > > of Hinducalendar forum. As an alternative, since you are already a member > > of the Hinducalendar forum, you can upload any file you want to from that > > forum to jyotishgoup. Personally, I would recommend " koshur6.doc " , > > BVB6.doc; rashi5.doc., npj3.doc, BVB5.doc, PAC3.doc, shankar1.doc etc. etc. > > Kindly take time out to go through them and see it for yourself as to > what > > progress, if any, has already been made in the direction of calendar reform. > > > > <I would like to invite some of the scholars (and panchanga experts) to > > comment on these criteria and also delve on how far have we moved away from > > these criteria (rightly or wrongly).> > > > > You are most welcome to invite any scholar etc. to comment on these criteria > > since that is what I actually want and that is why I am posting my mails on > > every forum. I am posting separately " raman.doc " which will give you an > > idea about the efforts that I have been making in this direction. > > > > < Just one thing, lets keep 'Vedic Astrologer' and 'Rashis' out of this > > discussion as these are highly charged words!!> > > > > There is a saying in Hindi, " main to kambal ko chhod raha hoon, lekin kambal > > mujhe nahin chhod raa hai " . The story goes like this: Some one > mistook a > > drowning bear for a woolen blanket of black colour and he jumped to collect > > that blanket. The bear, like a drowning man catching at a straw, caught > > hold of the savoir and would not leave him. A friend of the savoir from the > > river-bank shouted, " Why don't you let the blanket go? " and pat came the > > reply from the " man who mistook the bear for blanket, " I am trying to let > > the `blanket' go, but it is not allowing me to go " . It is a similar story > > with " Vedic astrology " and rashis vis-à-vis calendar reform. > > > > It is on record that over the last at least three centuries efforts have > > been going on to put the " dismantled " Vedic calendar back on the track. > > This is evident from S. B. Dikshit's " Bharatiya Jyotisha Shastra " . Similar > > panchanga standardization committees were held in Varanasi, Ujjain etc. etc. > > so much so that the Shankaracharya of Dwarka, > more than a hundred years > > back, even issued an aadesha patra that all the festivals should be > > celebrated on the basis of sayana rashichakra. That aadesha patra also is > > in Hinducalenar forum. The last such committee was the " Saha calendar > > reform committee " appointed by the GOI in 1953. Unfortunately for India, > > the net result of all such committees has been a fall back upon the same > > Grahalaghava ayanamsha, which late N. C. Lahiri cunningly manipulated by his > > devious methods by pegging it to an imaginary point that was conjunct the > > Vernal Equinox of 285 AD that was supposed to be opposite the Spica star > > then! It was actually a backdoor entry for Grahlaghava ayanamsha simply > > because Lahiri's Indian Ephemeris (English) and his Vishudha Sidhanti > > Panjika (Bangla) would not sell if he had switched over to zero ayanamsha or > > even Revati Ayanamsha, as was suggested by > all the stalwarts! > > > > This sabotage of the recommendations of the Saha Calenar Reform Committee > > will be clear from PAC3.doc in the files section of Hinducalendar forum! > > > > As such, it is a humble request to all the jyotishis, whether they call > > themselves Vedic or non-Vedic or even anti-Vedic, that they may use whatever > > ayanamsha or whatever system of prediction they choose for making correct > > predictions or patri melapak etc. etc., but they must leave calendar reform > > alone and not thrust the " almighty " Lahiri or Muladhara etc. Rashichakra > > down the throat of every Hindu. That is also a request to the Government of > > India. > > > > Anybody who can do such a Herculean task will really be the messiah of the > > real Vedic calendar. > > > > With regards, > > > > A K Kaul > > > > > > > > > > > > , " jyotishi " <raj@> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Kaul ji, > > > You have categorically and critically claimed that we are celebrating > > festivals on the wrong dates or in other words, the dates chosen for our > > festivals (by the panchanga makers - including the govt of india) do not > > follow the criteria available in our ancient texts for determining the dates > > for each festival. > > > > > > I think we should have an open mind to review whether and to what extent > > we are adhering to the criteria given in the ancient texts. In order to do > > this, we need to first identify those criteria. > > > > > > Kaulji, I would like to request you to kindly make a post (or direct me to > > a post) where we can identify the criteria for ascertaining the dates for > > the major festivals of India. > > > > > > > I would like to invite some of the scholars (and panchanga experts) to > > comment on these criteria and also delve on how far have we moved away from > > these criteria (rightly or wrongly). > > > > > > Just one thing, lets keep 'Vedic Astrologer' and 'Rashis' out of this > > discussion as these are highly charged words!! > > > > > > regards, > > > raj > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2009 Report Share Posted November 3, 2009 Respected Hari Mala, Namaskara. I am sorry to write that I do not appreciate the tone of your post. In India festivals are celebrated according to the Sidereal system and Tropical system. It is not the question of festivals are required for the well being of the society. These are must to keep the society clean and healthy. It is the question of why our Maharishes selected the particular day for the celebration of the particular festival. Why? If you say it is tradition then I will not accept it. Our Maharirishes were calculative and follow the astronomy and season for the same. They were great thinkers. We may not we able to decode them with our present knowledge and data. Regards --- On Tue, 11/3/09, hari <harimalla wrote: > hari <harimalla > Re: Hindu festivals > > Tuesday, November 3, 2009, 7:21 PM > Dear Sunil Bhattacharyaji, > namaskar! Are you such an atheist that you see no logic in > the timely celebration of the festivals? If the festivals > are not to be properly timed then what is to be? The whole > society suffers if the festivals are untimely. All believers > know this. Do you not? > Hari Malla > > , > Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya wrote: > > > > Dear Kursijaji, > > > > Yes I agree. These are the issues, which make one > think. Nothing can be bulldozed. In many cases consensus > would give the solution. Surprisingly the people, who do not > believe in the predictive astrology and in Paroksha > interpretation ie. who wants only and only direct tangible > proof and effects, are raising the bogey, by making > baseless prediction, that calamity will befall as the > festivals are not being observed in the right time. Can > they explain their prediction? > > > > Regards, > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > --- On Mon, 11/2/09, S.C. Kursija > <sckursija wrote: > > > > S.C. Kursija <sckursija > > Re: Re: > Re: Hindu festivals > > > > Monday, November 2, 2009, 10:36 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Respected Sh.Sunil Bhattacharya ji, > > I agree with you that our festival are dependent on > Sidereal and Tropical calender. Diwali is a finance function > / material function. It should be performed in auspicious > muhural. But Diwali is not a auspicious muhurat. Sun is > debilitated, Moon is combust and going to be debilitated. So > please why we celebrate Diwali festival? > > > > --- On Tue, 11/3/09, Sunil Bhattacharjya > <sunil_bhattacharjya @> wrote: > > > > > > Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya > @> > > [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: > Re: Hindu festivals > > > > Tuesday, November 3, 2009, 11:25 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Rajji, > > > > There are Hindu festivals which require both the > Sidereal calendar and the Seasonal (Tropical) calendar. > For example the Harvest festival, which is observed by > different communities, is a season-based festival as the > agriculture depends on the Monsoon. which in turn is > seasonal. If ceratin seasonal festivals are not being > properly observed on the basis of season then one has every > right to protest. > > > > However there are many festivals which depend on the > Sidereal calendar. For example the Ram-Navami is to be > observed on the Shukla-Navami day in the month of Chaitra. > Valmiki Ramayana clearly mentions the month of Chaitra. It > may be true that some portions of the Balakanda and the > Uttarakanda could have been modified by Valmiki at a later > date to project Lord Rama as God or it could even be that > some other rishi could have added these two kandas to the > Ramayana later on. Whatever may be the > > case one has to rely on the data given in the > Ramayana. We cannot rely on other data if that goes against > that data given in the Ramayaana. Some people may think that > we have to observe the Ram-Navami in the month of Madhu as > some later day texts have mentioned the month of madhu as > the birth-month of Lord Rama. It could have been so at the > time of Lord Rama but the seasonal months go on changing due > to precession. That shows that we have to stick to what has > been given in the Valmiki Ramayana only. We have also to > keep in mind that according to the Rigveda. the Moon is the > maker of the month. Both the Purnimanta and the Amanta > months are there in the Veda. The Lunar and Soli-Lunar > months are Purnimanta and Amanta and these are based on the > Purnima and Amavashya in the Nakshtras . I have shown in > one of the earlier mails in the group that when Lord Rama > was born the the Month was Chaitra and the Sun was around > 183 degrees in the Chitra > > nakshatra and this points to the Purnimanta > Chaitra month. > > > > Now let us take another case. The Kartika Vrata in > month of Kartika is observed by the pious Hindus.The Kartika > month is holy to the Hindus and it considered to be the > month of Mother Radha. Tulsi pujan is also done in this > month. Simalarly the Shravana month is observed by the Shiva > bhaktas. Another example is the Ashadha Ekadashi, which is > observed in the month of Ashadha. In the Bhagavad Gita Lord > Krishna told about the month of Margashirsha. The > Uttarakhanda of the Padma purana tells us about the > importance of all these months, which are sidereal. It will > go against the very basis of Hindu festivals if the Sidereal > calendar is abolished. I think the Hindus being tolerant are > tolerating this campaign of some people to abolish the > sidereal calendar. but before people turn violent we have > to see that this anti-Hindu campaign stops.. > > > > I am not against the Seasonal > > calendar. I feel that if it is possible let us > accommodate the Seasonal calendar alongside the regular > Sidereal calendar. Nobody in proper frame of mind can > think of abolishing the Sidereal calendar. If there is > opposition to the existence of Sidereal calendar then we > should better forget about accommodating the seasonal > calendar. > > > > Regards, > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > --- On Mon, 11/2/09, jyotishi <raj (AT) jyotishi (DOT) > org> wrote: > > > > > > jyotishi <raj (AT) jyotishi (DOT) org> > > Re: Hindu festivals > > > > Monday, November 2, 2009, 7:53 PM > > > > > > > > > > thank you. I will respond shortly. > > > > regards, > > raj > > > > , " jyotirved " > <jyotirved@ ..> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Raj ji, > > > > > > Many thanks for your post regarding the above > topic. > > > > > > I am really glad that a jyotishi also is taking > interest in calendar reform! > > > > > > > > > <You have categorically and critically claimed > that we are celebrating > > > festivals on the wrong dates or in other words, > the dates chosen for our > > > festivals (by the panchanga makers - including > the govt of india) do not > > > follow the criteria available in our ancient > texts for determining the dates > > > for each festival. > > > > > > > You are absolutely right. These days we are > celebrating all our festivals > > > neither as per the Vedas, nor Puranas nor > sidhantas, and surprisingly, not > > > even as per Primary School level geography > > but only as per the whims and > > > fancies of some " almighties " like Lahiriwalas and > Ramanawalas and so on. I > > > have made quite a few representations to all > those who matter, including the > > > President of India, New Delhi; Postional > Astronomy Centre and the India > > > Meteorological Department (publishers of > Rashtriya Panchanga) etc. etc. in > > > this regard, as will be clear from the papers in > the files section of > > > Hinducalendar forum. > > > The calendar reform has been a process of > evolution for me personally on the > > > lines of the Vedas and the Puranas. To start > with, I was totally enamoured > > > of Grahalghava etc. Makar Sankrantis and other > festivals, and believe it or > > > not, it was through predictive astrology--- > nirayana, with > > > Lahiri/Grahalaghava ayanamsha, of course!----that > I started delving deep > > > into calendar reform! It was an inadvertent > wake-up call for me, since when > > > I found > > quite a few predictions not coming true because > of one ayanamsha, I > > > experimented with other ayanamshas, and finally > delved deep into sidhantas > > > and the Puranas! > > > > > > From a perusal of all those puranas and > sidhantas, I concluded that it was > > > the " Tropical zodiac " (Sayana Rashichakra) that > was being followed by all > > > of them for festivals and by implication, the > Pauranic and sidhantic > > > authorities must have been following it even for > astrological predictions! > > > I therefore started a crusade for Tropical Zodiac > i.e. Sayana Rashichakra, > > > presuming that since that was the basis of > Pauranic festivals, it must be > > > the basis of not only Vedic festivals but even > the real Vedic astrology. > > > That crusade lasted for a considerable period > through my Panchangas and > > > surprisingly, I even made quite a few correct > predictions on the basis of > > > Sayana Rashichakra and secondary > > progressions etc. For one of those > > > predictions, I was awarded NOSTRADAMUS Award by > His Holiness of Kanchi > > > Kamakoti, Swami Jayendra Saraswati, at Kanchi, > (and not at Delhi!). My to > > > and fro expenses of air-fair and stay at a > five-star hotel in Chennai etc. > > > etc. apart from a cheque for Rs. 11000/- as back > as 1995, also were borne > > > by Express Star Teller Magazine, who had started > that award. That > > > strengthened my view that Tropical astrology was > the real Vedic astrology, > > > which it is not, as we shall see shortly! > > > > > > Since " the greatest Vedic astrologer of the > twentieth century " viz. Dr. B. > > > V. Raman etc. called the nirayana astrology as > Vedic, I was intrigued as to > > > how could the Vedic Rashis be different from the > Paurnic and sidhantic! I, > > > therefore, went through all the Vedas and the > Vedanga Jyotisha etc. with a > > > tooth comb! > > > > > > As is common > > knowledge by now, there were/are absolutely no > Mesha, Vrisha > > > etc. Rashis in the Vedas! So to call them sayana > or nirayana was just > > > meaningless and tacking at the air! > > > > > > In my panchangas, I had been clubbing Ashvini, > Bharni etc. nakshatras also > > > with Sayana Rashichakra since that was what was > done by the Hindu > > > astrologers on the basis of the Surya Sidhanta. > That very practice of > > > Ashvini etc. nakshatras being clubbed with Sayana > rashis continued to be > > > followed at the time of Alberuni i.e. eleventh > century in India. But a > > > member of Indiaarchaeology forum, Shri Paul Kekai > Manansala, drew my > > > attention to the fact that Tropical Rashis could > never be clubbed with > > > Ashvini, Bharni etc. nakshatras! > > > > > > That set me thinking again as to how the Puranas > had talked of a sayana > > > rashichakra and also nakshatras, in one and the > same breath, whereas the > > > Vedas > > talked about the nakshatras times without number > but did not mention, > > > much less link them, with any Mesha etc. rashis, > which were conspicuous by > > > their absence from the same! There was yet > another dichotomy: The year as > > > per the Vedanga Jyotisha started from Uttarayana > but the nakshatras started > > > from Kritiika as against Ashvini (as is happening > these days) or Dhanishtha > > > where the Uttarayana was located then! > > > > > > It dawned on me much later in the day that > nakshatras had nothing to do with > > > Madhu, Madhava etc. months---the real Vedic > months instead of Mesha, Vrisha > > > etc. rashis---since the latter were/are seasonal > and immune to the effects > > > of precession of equinoxes! Thus if the Vernal > Equinox was the Vasanta > > > Sampat i.e when the day was equal to night in > 10000 BCE, it will remain so > > > in 10000 AD as well, when the day will be equal > to night again, irrespective > > > > > of the fact that if the VE was in nakshatra " A " > (the first nakshatra of the > > > nakshatra chakra) in 10000 BCE, it may be in > nakshatra " Z " (the last > > > nakshatra of that very nakshatra chakra) in 10000 > AD, but Vernal Equinox > > > would continue to be Vasanta Sampat i.e., when > day is equal to night! > > > Similarly, if Madhu was the first month of > Vasanta Ritu (the month before > > > the VE) in 10000 BCE, it will be the first month > of that very Vasanta Ritu > > > in 10000 AD as well, since the Vasanta Ritu > (Spring season) will always > > > start a month prior to the Vernal Equinox, > unaffected by precession of > > > equinoxes! > > > > > > It means that it is only Mesha, Vrisha etc. > rashis that are creating the > > > confusion of so called sayana and nirayana and so > on whereas there are no > > > such confusions and dichotomies in the Vedas or > the Vedic months, much less > > > the Vedic seasons! > > > > > > In fact, > > the Vedic calendar is the most scientific and > the most wonderful as > > > well beautiful calendar the world could ever > have! It is unlike all the > > > other calendars the world over! It is directly > linked to the four cardinal > > > points viz. the two equinoxes and two solstices > and to the resulting Madhu, > > > Madhava etc. months. It is to those very Madhu, > Madhava months to which the > > > synodic months are pegged! Thus the real Vedic > synodic (what most people > > > call lunar) months are also immune to precession, > since they are directly > > > linked to seasonal solar months! Thus if the > lunar Vasanti Navratra > > > started with the first New Moon (Amanta---Shukla > pratipat) after the month > > > of Madhu in 10000 BCE, it will start similarly in > 10000 AD also, i.e., the > > > first New Moon after the month of Madhu---you may > as well say the last new > > > Moon before the Vernal Equinox----will be the > start of the lunar > > > > > Vasanti-Navratra- cum-Chaitra in 10000 AD also > just as it was so in 10000 BC. > > > That will be the first month of Vasanta Ritu > therefore in 10000 AD, as it > > > was in 10000 BCE. > > > > > > Thus when we say that Bhagwan Ram was born on > Chaitra Shukla Navmi in > > > Vasanta Ritu, it was thus Shukla_navmi of the > first lunar month of Vasanta > > > Ritu---the last New Moon before the Vernal > Equinox---known as the month of > > > Madhu in the Vedanga Jyotisha---where there is no > confusion of any Mesha, > > > Vrisha etc. rashis nor the so called sayana or > nirayana etc. cacophony! > > > > > > This was a revelation to me that the Vedas were > really without Mesha etc. > > > Rashis and that is why the Vedic calendar is the > most scientific and a > > > durable one! If you peruse the history of Vedic > calendar, it is only after > > > the introduction of Mehsa, Vrisha etc. rashis > through the Surya Sidhanta of > > > Maya the mlechha that > > things have gone helter-skelter! We have become > > > completely delinked from the Madhu, Madhaa etc. > months and the four cardinal > > > points and got hooked to Mesha, Vrisha etc. > Rashis about which nobody knows > > > as to which rashi starts from where, if at all it > starts from any point! > > > > > > Since I could not find any Mesha, Vrisha etc. > rashis in the Vedas and the > > > Vedanga Jyotisha etc., I was just mad with rage > as to how the Vedic seers > > > had been so negligent as not to talk about them > at all, as all the > > > astrologers the world over had been dinning it > into my ears that Mesha, > > > Vrisha etc. rashis were astronomical twelve equal > divisions of the zodiac, > > > which in itself was " rock solid " ! > > > > > > I had therefore to delve deeper into astronomical > works as well so as to see > > > as to what had gone wrong and where about the > Vedic lore as to why the Seers > > > had not talked about Mesha, > > Vrisha etc. Rashis and Mangal, Shanie etc. > > > planets, when the whole world had been talking > about the same over the last > > > at least two thousand years! > > > > > > To my surprise, I found that the Vedic seers were > more advanced than all the > > > astronomers the world over put together a few > thousand years back! > > > Astronomically, zodiac (the famous Rashichakra/ > bhachakra of the sidhantas > > > and Puranas and jyotishis!) is nothing but " an > imaginary belt of the heavens > > > centering on the ecliptic, within which are the > apparent paths of the sun, > > > moon and principal planets " . Zodiac is actually a > Greek word which in > > > itself means a " circle of animals " . It was > actually divided into many more > > > parts---all of them unequal----than twelve and > each part was known as a > > > constellation by Greek astronomers. Prominent > among those constellations > > > were Aries, Taurus etc. thirteen (including > > Ophuchius) Greek > > > constellations- ---none equal to one another. > These constellations are > > > supposed to have resembled some figures in the > past e.g. a cluster of > > > millions and billions of stars is supposed to > have resembled a Ram in the > > > hoary past by Babylonian astrologers, and yet > another part resembled a Bull > > > and so on. That is why they named those portions > as Aries, Taurus and so > > > on. Even those constellations no longer resemble > those figures these days, > > > because of the Proper Motion of stars, but > somehow, IAU is sill calling > > > those constellations by those very names. > > > > > > Those very unequal constellations were used by > Greco-Chaldean astrologers > > > for astrological predictions, under the > impression that since those " groups " > > > contained stars they were affecting every Tom, > Dick and Harry through > > > " divine entities " like Mars, Jupiter, Saturn etc. > etc. Instead > > of > > > considering the actual unequal imaginary > constellations even for > > > predictions, they just divided the already > imaginary zodiac into twelve > > > imaginary divisions, and called each division by > the original name of Aries, > > > Taurus etc. Thus you will not find any > astrological sign Aries, Taurus etc. > > > corresponding at all with the exact constellation > of that very name e.g. > > > Astrological sign Aries is away by light years > from the constellation Aries > > > and astrological sign Taurus is away by Light > years from the constellation > > > Taurus and so on! Still jyotishis claim to be > making correct predictions > > > from those very imaginary " equal animals " > (Rashis) of imaginary " unequal > > > animals " (constellations) of a still more > imaginary circle named zodiac > > > which extends about nine/ten degrees above and > below of yet another > > > imaginary circle known as Ecliptic! My God! It is > real imagination > > run > > > riot! > > > > > > NATURALLY, THE VEDIC SEERS WERE REAL SCIENTISTS > NOT TO HAVE THOUGHT OF SUCH > > > IMAGINARY " TWELVE EQUAL ANIMAL DIVISIONS " OF > " UNEQUAL ANIMALS " ! > > > > > > Anyway, coming back to our Vedic calendar, it was > the same imaginary circle > > > of imaginary twelve imaginary animals that Maya > the mlechha thrust on us and > > > we got dislodged completely from Madhu, Madhava > etc. months and the real > > > Vedic nakshtras like Krittika, Mrigasira etc. > > > > > > Thus, if we really want to streamline our Vedic > calendar and put it back on > > > the real Vedic track, we have to completely > eliminate Mesha, Vrisha etc. > > > rashis from our vocabulary, just as the Vedic > seers had done it, and delink > > > nakshatras completely from not only the > non-existent rashis but even Madhu, > > > Madhava etc. months to which they were never > linked, in the first place. > > > > > > If because of our infatuation > > with predictive gimmicks, we are unable to > > > forget Mesha, Vrisha etc. Rashis, then we must at > the best or even at the > > > worst use the so called Sayana Rashis for the > real Vedic months like Mina > > > for Madhu, Mesha for Madhava and so on, since > that is what all the Puranas > > > and sidhantas have done. > > > > > > That way we can at least claim that we are > celebrating our festivals in > > > accordance with the Puranas if not the Vedas! > Nakshatras have to be > > > completely delinked from Rashis, whether sayana > or nirayana, and after a > > > thorough debate, they may be pegged to the > Junction Stars, if it is found > > > that they have really anything to do with their > namesake nakshatra divisions > > > of the Vedas. If the scholars decide that the > name-sake Junction stars also > > > were thrust by Maya the mlechha on us on the > basis of Hipparchus' Star > > > catalogue or some other source and they have > nothing to do > > with the Vedic > > > nakshatras, we may as well shun them and find > some other way to decide the > > > Vedic nakshatras. > > > > > > The beauty of the Vedic calendar lies in the fact > that it combines both the > > > lunar (synodic) and the solar months and years > and pegs them to the natural > > > phenomenon of seasons. > > > > > > For example, the Muslim calendar is based purely > on synodic months, and > > > since a synodic twelve month cycle is always > short by about eleven days from > > > a solar year, that is why we find Muslim > festivals receding back every year > > > by 11 days! Thus, if Id-uz-Zuha was (say) on > December 31 in 1990, it would > > > have been on December 20 in 1991, on December 9 > in 1992, November 29 in 1993 > > > and so on, with the result that after a period of > about 33 years, it may be > > > back on December 31 in around 2023! Thus none of > the festivals of Hejira > > > calendar remains stable! > > > > > > > > On the other hand, a Vedic Vasanti Navratra > always starts with the first New > > > Moon after the start of Vasanta Ritu, since the > " shortfall " of eleven days > > > in a lunar cycle of twelve months vis-à-vis a > solar year is compensated by > > > an adhika-masa every 32/33 solar months. This > adhika masa concept is in > > > fact found in the ancient most work viz. the > Rigveda " Veda maso dhrita vrato > > > dwadasha prajavatah, veda ya upajayate " (Rigveda > 1/25/8) i.e. " Varuna > > > knows the twelve months, it also knows the > thirteenth (adhika) month " . > > > > > > If on the other hand, we peg the Hindu calendar > to so called Lahiri or Raman > > > or Muladhara etc. Rashichakra, we are faced with > a peculiar situation! We > > > are not following either Islamic calendar of a > pure synodic months, nor are > > > we following the real Vedic calendar pegged to > seasons! It is not even the > > > Pauranic calendar as that is aligned with > > sayana rashis! Nor is it a > > > geographical calendar, since that is dependent on > the two Vishuvas and > > > Ayanasa! We are just between two stools---and > have fallen to the ground > > > already! We are not celebrating Vasanta Navratras > with the start of the > > > Vasanta Ritu, but after one month of that ritu is > already over! WE are not > > > celebrating Sharadiya Navratras with the start of > Sharad ritu but after one > > > month of that ritu is already over. If we > continue to follow this pattern, > > > a day will come when we will celebrate Vasanti > Navratras in Sharad Ritu and > > > vice-versa! > > > > > > If at all we have to hug any Makar or Mehsa or > karkata etc. Sankrantis, we > > > must choose the lesser of two evils and embrace > pauranic and sidhanti Makar, > > > Mesha etc. Sankrantis, which are all so called > Sayana--- and shun Lahiri etc > > > Sankrantis. > > > > > > < I would like to request you to kindly make > > a post (or direct me to a post) > > > where we can identify the criteria for > ascertaining the dates for the major > > > festivals of India.> > > > > > > I find that is not open to uploading > files. Nor does it store > > > any attachments. I would request you to change > this orientation so that > > > documents can be uploaded in the files section. > That way, instead of > > > repeating everything in individual posts, it > would be easier for me to give > > > the members all the information that is already > stored in the files section > > > of Hinducalendar forum. As an alternative, since > you are already a member > > > of the Hinducalendar forum, you can upload any > file you want to from that > > > forum to jyotishgoup. Personally, I would > recommend " koshur6.doc " , > > > BVB6.doc; rashi5.doc., npj3.doc, BVB5.doc, > PAC3.doc, shankar1.doc etc. etc. > > > Kindly take time out to go through them and see > it for yourself as to > > what > > > progress, if any, has already been made in the > direction of calendar reform. > > > > > > <I would like to invite some of the scholars > (and panchanga experts) to > > > comment on these criteria and also delve on how > far have we moved away from > > > these criteria (rightly or wrongly).> > > > > > > You are most welcome to invite any scholar etc. > to comment on these criteria > > > since that is what I actually want and that is > why I am posting my mails on > > > every forum. I am posting separately " raman.doc " > which will give you an > > > idea about the efforts that I have been making in > this direction. > > > > > > < Just one thing, lets keep 'Vedic Astrologer' > and 'Rashis' out of this > > > discussion as these are highly charged > words!!> > > > > > > There is a saying in Hindi, " main to kambal ko > chhod raha hoon, lekin kambal > > > mujhe nahin chhod raa hai " . The story goes like > this: Some one > > mistook a > > > drowning bear for a woolen blanket of black > colour and he jumped to collect > > > that blanket. The bear, like a drowning man > catching at a straw, caught > > > hold of the savoir and would not leave him. A > friend of the savoir from the > > > river-bank shouted, " Why don't you let the > blanket go? " and pat came the > > > reply from the " man who mistook the bear for > blanket, " I am trying to let > > > the `blanket' go, but it is not allowing me to > go " . It is a similar story > > > with " Vedic astrology " and rashis vis-à-vis > calendar reform. > > > > > > It is on record that over the last at least three > centuries efforts have > > > been going on to put the " dismantled " Vedic > calendar back on the track. > > > This is evident from S. B. Dikshit's " Bharatiya > Jyotisha Shastra " . Similar > > > panchanga standardization committees were held in > Varanasi, Ujjain etc. etc. > > > so much so that the Shankaracharya of Dwarka, > > more than a hundred years > > > back, even issued an aadesha patra that all the > festivals should be > > > celebrated on the basis of sayana rashichakra. > That aadesha patra also is > > > in Hinducalenar forum. The last such committee > was the " Saha calendar > > > reform committee " appointed by the GOI in 1953. > Unfortunately for India, > > > the net result of all such committees has been a > fall back upon the same > > > Grahalaghava ayanamsha, which late N. C. Lahiri > cunningly manipulated by his > > > devious methods by pegging it to an imaginary > point that was conjunct the > > > Vernal Equinox of 285 AD that was supposed to be > opposite the Spica star > > > then! It was actually a backdoor entry for > Grahlaghava ayanamsha simply > > > because Lahiri's Indian Ephemeris (English) and > his Vishudha Sidhanti > > > Panjika (Bangla) would not sell if he had > switched over to zero ayanamsha or > > > even Revati Ayanamsha, as was suggested by > > all the stalwarts! > > > > > > This sabotage of the recommendations of the Saha > Calenar Reform Committee > > > will be clear from PAC3.doc in the files section > of Hinducalendar forum! > > > > > > As such, it is a humble request to all the > jyotishis, whether they call > > > themselves Vedic or non-Vedic or even anti-Vedic, > that they may use whatever > > > ayanamsha or whatever system of prediction they > choose for making correct > > > predictions or patri melapak etc. etc., but they > must leave calendar reform > > > alone and not thrust the " almighty " Lahiri or > Muladhara etc. Rashichakra > > > down the throat of every Hindu. That is also a > request to the Government of > > > India. > > > > > > Anybody who can do such a Herculean task will > really be the messiah of the > > > real Vedic calendar. > > > > > > With regards, > > > > > > A K Kaul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " jyotishi " > <raj@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Kaul ji, > > > > You have categorically and critically > claimed that we are celebrating > > > festivals on the wrong dates or in other words, > the dates chosen for our > > > festivals (by the panchanga makers - including > the govt of india) do not > > > follow the criteria available in our ancient > texts for determining the dates > > > for each festival. > > > > > > > > I think we should have an open mind to > review whether and to what extent > > > we are adhering to the criteria given in the > ancient texts. In order to do > > > this, we need to first identify those criteria. > > > > > > > > Kaulji, I would like to request you to > kindly make a post (or direct me to > > > a post) where we can identify the criteria for > ascertaining the dates for > > > the major festivals of India. > > > > > > > > > > I would like to invite some of the scholars (and > panchanga experts) to > > > comment on these criteria and also delve on how > far have we moved away from > > > these criteria (rightly or wrongly). > > > > > > > > Just one thing, lets keep 'Vedic Astrologer' > and 'Rashis' out of this > > > discussion as these are highly charged words!! > > > > > > > > regards, > > > > raj > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > > > > > > > > --- > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2009 Report Share Posted November 4, 2009 Shri Harimalla,Did I say I do not want timely celebration of the festivals? Or are you conveniently dodging my comment? I am pointing at the anti-Hindu double talkers, who want the astrologers to prove the validity of astrology and at the same time they threaten the Hindus (Jains and Buddhists included) regarding the correct date and time of the festivals. By the same logic they must give proof for what they say otherwise they should keep their mouth shut.Recently Shri Darshaneyji sent his date of festivals in 2010 and Shri Kaul seems to have appreciated that. Can you determine the right Muhurta for any festival from that? Is that not against the rules of the festivals? Have you raised any question on that so far?Please do not be so matlabi. Your matlab is to garner support for the calendar reform you and others have already initiated in Nepal. Please go ahead with that if you think what you are doing is the right thing. I feel that it would probably have been better if you would have circulated your proposals in advance and asked for opinions and suggestions. Instead of that you want to brainwash all people to think in your way that nakshatras are useless and why not consider 88 constellations instead of 27 nakshatras etc. etc.Sincerely,Sunil K. Bhattacharjya--- On Tue, 11/3/09, hari <harimalla wrote:hari <harimalla Re: Hindu festivals Date: Tuesday, November 3, 2009, 5:51 AM Dear Sunil Bhattacharyaji, namaskar! Are you such an atheist that you see no logic in the timely celebration of the festivals? If the festivals are not to be properly timed then what is to be? The whole society suffers if the festivals are untimely. All believers know this. Do you not? Hari Malla ancient_indian_ astrology, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote: > > Dear Kursijaji, > > Yes I agree. These are the issues, which make one think. Nothing can be bulldozed. In many cases consensus would give the solution. Surprisingly the people, who do not believe in the predictive astrology and in Paroksha interpretation ie. who wants only and only direct tangible proof and effects, are raising the bogey, by making baseless prediction, that calamity will befall as the festivals are not being observed in the right time. Can they explain their prediction? > > Regards, > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > --- On Mon, 11/2/09, S.C. Kursija <sckursija@. ..> wrote: > > S.C. Kursija <sckursija@. ..> > Re: [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Re: Hindu festivals > ancient_indian_ astrology > Monday, November 2, 2009, 10:36 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > Respected Sh.Sunil Bhattacharya ji, > I agree with you that our festival are dependent on Sidereal and Tropical calender. Diwali is a finance function / material function. It should be performed in auspicious muhural. But Diwali is not a auspicious muhurat. Sun is debilitated, Moon is combust and going to be debilitated. So please why we celebrate Diwali festival? > > --- On Tue, 11/3/09, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a @> wrote: > > > Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a @> > [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Re: Hindu festivals > > Tuesday, November 3, 2009, 11:25 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Rajji, > > There are Hindu festivals which require both the Sidereal calendar and the Seasonal (Tropical) calendar. For example the Harvest festival, which is observed by different communities, is a season-based festival as the agriculture depends on the Monsoon. which in turn is seasonal. If ceratin seasonal festivals are not being properly observed on the basis of season then one has every right to protest. > > However there are many festivals which depend on the Sidereal calendar. For example the Ram-Navami is to be observed on the Shukla-Navami day in the month of Chaitra. Valmiki Ramayana clearly mentions the month of Chaitra. It may be true that some portions of the Balakanda and the Uttarakanda could have been modified by Valmiki at a later date to project Lord Rama as God or it could even be that some other rishi could have added these two kandas to the Ramayana later on. Whatever may be the > case one has to rely on the data given in the Ramayana. We cannot rely on other data if that goes against that data given in the Ramayaana. Some people may think that we have to observe the Ram-Navami in the month of Madhu as some later day texts have mentioned the month of madhu as the birth-month of Lord Rama. It could have been so at the time of Lord Rama but the seasonal months go on changing due to precession. That shows that we have to stick to what has been given in the Valmiki Ramayana only. We have also to keep in mind that according to the Rigveda. the Moon is the maker of the month. Both the Purnimanta and the Amanta months are there in the Veda. The Lunar and Soli-Lunar months are Purnimanta and Amanta and these are based on the Purnima and Amavashya in the Nakshtras . I have shown in one of the earlier mails in the group that when Lord Rama was born the the Month was Chaitra and the Sun was around 183 degrees in the Chitra > nakshatra and this points to the Purnimanta Chaitra month. > > Now let us take another case. The Kartika Vrata in month of Kartika is observed by the pious Hindus.The Kartika month is holy to the Hindus and it considered to be the month of Mother Radha. Tulsi pujan is also done in this month. Simalarly the Shravana month is observed by the Shiva bhaktas. Another example is the Ashadha Ekadashi, which is observed in the month of Ashadha. In the Bhagavad Gita Lord Krishna told about the month of Margashirsha. The Uttarakhanda of the Padma purana tells us about the importance of all these months, which are sidereal. It will go against the very basis of Hindu festivals if the Sidereal calendar is abolished. I think the Hindus being tolerant are tolerating this campaign of some people to abolish the sidereal calendar. but before people turn violent we have to see that this anti-Hindu campaign stops.. > > I am not against the Seasonal > calendar. I feel that if it is possible let us accommodate the Seasonal calendar alongside the regular Sidereal calendar. Nobody in proper frame of mind can think of abolishing the Sidereal calendar. If there is opposition to the existence of Sidereal calendar then we should better forget about accommodating the seasonal calendar. > > Regards, > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > --- On Mon, 11/2/09, jyotishi <raj (AT) jyotishi (DOT) org> wrote: > > > jyotishi <raj (AT) jyotishi (DOT) org> > Re: Hindu festivals > > Monday, November 2, 2009, 7:53 PM > > > > > thank you. I will respond shortly. > > regards, > raj > > , "jyotirved" <jyotirved@ ..> wrote: > > > > Dear Raj ji, > > > > Many thanks for your post regarding the above topic. > > > > I am really glad that a jyotishi also is taking interest in calendar reform! > > > > > > <You have categorically and critically claimed that we are celebrating > > festivals on the wrong dates or in other words, the dates chosen for our > > festivals (by the panchanga makers - including the govt of india) do not > > follow the criteria available in our ancient texts for determining the dates > > for each festival. > > > > > You are absolutely right. These days we are celebrating all our festivals > > neither as per the Vedas, nor Puranas nor sidhantas, and surprisingly, not > > even as per Primary School level geography > but only as per the whims and > > fancies of some "almighties" like Lahiriwalas and Ramanawalas and so on. I > > have made quite a few representations to all those who matter, including the > > President of India, New Delhi; Postional Astronomy Centre and the India > > Meteorological Department (publishers of Rashtriya Panchanga) etc. etc. in > > this regard, as will be clear from the papers in the files section of > > Hinducalendar forum. > > The calendar reform has been a process of evolution for me personally on the > > lines of the Vedas and the Puranas. To start with, I was totally enamoured > > of Grahalghava etc. Makar Sankrantis and other festivals, and believe it or > > not, it was through predictive astrology--- nirayana, with > > Lahiri/Grahalaghava ayanamsha, of course!----that I started delving deep > > into calendar reform! It was an inadvertent wake-up call for me, since when > > I found > quite a few predictions not coming true because of one ayanamsha, I > > experimented with other ayanamshas, and finally delved deep into sidhantas > > and the Puranas! > > > > From a perusal of all those puranas and sidhantas, I concluded that it was > > the "Tropical zodiac" (Sayana Rashichakra) that was being followed by all > > of them for festivals and by implication, the Pauranic and sidhantic > > authorities must have been following it even for astrological predictions! > > I therefore started a crusade for Tropical Zodiac i.e. Sayana Rashichakra, > > presuming that since that was the basis of Pauranic festivals, it must be > > the basis of not only Vedic festivals but even the real Vedic astrology. > > That crusade lasted for a considerable period through my Panchangas and > > surprisingly, I even made quite a few correct predictions on the basis of > > Sayana Rashichakra and secondary > progressions etc. For one of those > > predictions, I was awarded NOSTRADAMUS Award by His Holiness of Kanchi > > Kamakoti, Swami Jayendra Saraswati, at Kanchi, (and not at Delhi!). My to > > and fro expenses of air-fair and stay at a five-star hotel in Chennai etc. > > etc. apart from a cheque for Rs. 11000/- as back as 1995, also were borne > > by Express Star Teller Magazine, who had started that award. That > > strengthened my view that Tropical astrology was the real Vedic astrology, > > which it is not, as we shall see shortly! > > > > Since "the greatest Vedic astrologer of the twentieth century" viz. Dr. B. > > V. Raman etc. called the nirayana astrology as Vedic, I was intrigued as to > > how could the Vedic Rashis be different from the Paurnic and sidhantic! I, > > therefore, went through all the Vedas and the Vedanga Jyotisha etc. with a > > tooth comb! > > > > As is common > knowledge by now, there were/are absolutely no Mesha, Vrisha > > etc. Rashis in the Vedas! So to call them sayana or nirayana was just > > meaningless and tacking at the air! > > > > In my panchangas, I had been clubbing Ashvini, Bharni etc. nakshatras also > > with Sayana Rashichakra since that was what was done by the Hindu > > astrologers on the basis of the Surya Sidhanta. That very practice of > > Ashvini etc. nakshatras being clubbed with Sayana rashis continued to be > > followed at the time of Alberuni i.e. eleventh century in India. But a > > member of Indiaarchaeology forum, Shri Paul Kekai Manansala, drew my > > attention to the fact that Tropical Rashis could never be clubbed with > > Ashvini, Bharni etc. nakshatras! > > > > That set me thinking again as to how the Puranas had talked of a sayana > > rashichakra and also nakshatras, in one and the same breath, whereas the > > Vedas > talked about the nakshatras times without number but did not mention, > > much less link them, with any Mesha etc. rashis, which were conspicuous by > > their absence from the same! There was yet another dichotomy: The year as > > per the Vedanga Jyotisha started from Uttarayana but the nakshatras started > > from Kritiika as against Ashvini (as is happening these days) or Dhanishtha > > where the Uttarayana was located then! > > > > It dawned on me much later in the day that nakshatras had nothing to do with > > Madhu, Madhava etc. months---the real Vedic months instead of Mesha, Vrisha > > etc. rashis---since the latter were/are seasonal and immune to the effects > > of precession of equinoxes! Thus if the Vernal Equinox was the Vasanta > > Sampat i.e when the day was equal to night in 10000 BCE, it will remain so > > in 10000 AD as well, when the day will be equal to night again, irrespective > > > of the fact that if the VE was in nakshatra "A" (the first nakshatra of the > > nakshatra chakra) in 10000 BCE, it may be in nakshatra "Z" (the last > > nakshatra of that very nakshatra chakra) in 10000 AD, but Vernal Equinox > > would continue to be Vasanta Sampat i.e., when day is equal to night! > > Similarly, if Madhu was the first month of Vasanta Ritu (the month before > > the VE) in 10000 BCE, it will be the first month of that very Vasanta Ritu > > in 10000 AD as well, since the Vasanta Ritu (Spring season) will always > > start a month prior to the Vernal Equinox, unaffected by precession of > > equinoxes! > > > > It means that it is only Mesha, Vrisha etc. rashis that are creating the > > confusion of so called sayana and nirayana and so on whereas there are no > > such confusions and dichotomies in the Vedas or the Vedic months, much less > > the Vedic seasons! > > > > In fact, > the Vedic calendar is the most scientific and the most wonderful as > > well beautiful calendar the world could ever have! It is unlike all the > > other calendars the world over! It is directly linked to the four cardinal > > points viz. the two equinoxes and two solstices and to the resulting Madhu, > > Madhava etc. months. It is to those very Madhu, Madhava months to which the > > synodic months are pegged! Thus the real Vedic synodic (what most people > > call lunar) months are also immune to precession, since they are directly > > linked to seasonal solar months! Thus if the lunar Vasanti Navratra > > started with the first New Moon (Amanta---Shukla pratipat) after the month > > of Madhu in 10000 BCE, it will start similarly in 10000 AD also, i.e., the > > first New Moon after the month of Madhu---you may as well say the last new > > Moon before the Vernal Equinox----will be the start of the lunar > > > Vasanti-Navratra- cum-Chaitra in 10000 AD also just as it was so in 10000 BC. > > That will be the first month of Vasanta Ritu therefore in 10000 AD, as it > > was in 10000 BCE. > > > > Thus when we say that Bhagwan Ram was born on Chaitra Shukla Navmi in > > Vasanta Ritu, it was thus Shukla_navmi of the first lunar month of Vasanta > > Ritu---the last New Moon before the Vernal Equinox---known as the month of > > Madhu in the Vedanga Jyotisha---where there is no confusion of any Mesha, > > Vrisha etc. rashis nor the so called sayana or nirayana etc. cacophony! > > > > This was a revelation to me that the Vedas were really without Mesha etc. > > Rashis and that is why the Vedic calendar is the most scientific and a > > durable one! If you peruse the history of Vedic calendar, it is only after > > the introduction of Mehsa, Vrisha etc. rashis through the Surya Sidhanta of > > Maya the mlechha that > things have gone helter-skelter! We have become > > completely delinked from the Madhu, Madhaa etc. months and the four cardinal > > points and got hooked to Mesha, Vrisha etc. Rashis about which nobody knows > > as to which rashi starts from where, if at all it starts from any point! > > > > Since I could not find any Mesha, Vrisha etc. rashis in the Vedas and the > > Vedanga Jyotisha etc., I was just mad with rage as to how the Vedic seers > > had been so negligent as not to talk about them at all, as all the > > astrologers the world over had been dinning it into my ears that Mesha, > > Vrisha etc. rashis were astronomical twelve equal divisions of the zodiac, > > which in itself was "rock solid"! > > > > I had therefore to delve deeper into astronomical works as well so as to see > > as to what had gone wrong and where about the Vedic lore as to why the Seers > > had not talked about Mesha, > Vrisha etc. Rashis and Mangal, Shanie etc. > > planets, when the whole world had been talking about the same over the last > > at least two thousand years! > > > > To my surprise, I found that the Vedic seers were more advanced than all the > > astronomers the world over put together a few thousand years back! > > Astronomically, zodiac (the famous Rashichakra/ bhachakra of the sidhantas > > and Puranas and jyotishis!) is nothing but "an imaginary belt of the heavens > > centering on the ecliptic, within which are the apparent paths of the sun, > > moon and principal planets". Zodiac is actually a Greek word which in > > itself means a "circle of animals". It was actually divided into many more > > parts---all of them unequal----than twelve and each part was known as a > > constellation by Greek astronomers. Prominent among those constellations > > were Aries, Taurus etc. thirteen (including > Ophuchius) Greek > > constellations- ---none equal to one another. These constellations are > > supposed to have resembled some figures in the past e.g. a cluster of > > millions and billions of stars is supposed to have resembled a Ram in the > > hoary past by Babylonian astrologers, and yet another part resembled a Bull > > and so on. That is why they named those portions as Aries, Taurus and so > > on. Even those constellations no longer resemble those figures these days, > > because of the Proper Motion of stars, but somehow, IAU is sill calling > > those constellations by those very names. > > > > Those very unequal constellations were used by Greco-Chaldean astrologers > > for astrological predictions, under the impression that since those "groups" > > contained stars they were affecting every Tom, Dick and Harry through > > "divine entities" like Mars, Jupiter, Saturn etc. etc. Instead > of > > considering the actual unequal imaginary constellations even for > > predictions, they just divided the already imaginary zodiac into twelve > > imaginary divisions, and called each division by the original name of Aries, > > Taurus etc. Thus you will not find any astrological sign Aries, Taurus etc. > > corresponding at all with the exact constellation of that very name e.g. > > Astrological sign Aries is away by light years from the constellation Aries > > and astrological sign Taurus is away by Light years from the constellation > > Taurus and so on! Still jyotishis claim to be making correct predictions > > from those very imaginary "equal animals" (Rashis) of imaginary "unequal > > animals" (constellations) of a still more imaginary circle named zodiac > > which extends about nine/ten degrees above and below of yet another > > imaginary circle known as Ecliptic! My God! It is real imagination > run > > riot! > > > > NATURALLY, THE VEDIC SEERS WERE REAL SCIENTISTS NOT TO HAVE THOUGHT OF SUCH > > IMAGINARY "TWELVE EQUAL ANIMAL DIVISIONS" OF "UNEQUAL ANIMALS"! > > > > Anyway, coming back to our Vedic calendar, it was the same imaginary circle > > of imaginary twelve imaginary animals that Maya the mlechha thrust on us and > > we got dislodged completely from Madhu, Madhava etc. months and the real > > Vedic nakshtras like Krittika, Mrigasira etc. > > > > Thus, if we really want to streamline our Vedic calendar and put it back on > > the real Vedic track, we have to completely eliminate Mesha, Vrisha etc. > > rashis from our vocabulary, just as the Vedic seers had done it, and delink > > nakshatras completely from not only the non-existent rashis but even Madhu, > > Madhava etc. months to which they were never linked, in the first place. > > > > If because of our infatuation > with predictive gimmicks, we are unable to > > forget Mesha, Vrisha etc. Rashis, then we must at the best or even at the > > worst use the so called Sayana Rashis for the real Vedic months like Mina > > for Madhu, Mesha for Madhava and so on, since that is what all the Puranas > > and sidhantas have done. > > > > That way we can at least claim that we are celebrating our festivals in > > accordance with the Puranas if not the Vedas! Nakshatras have to be > > completely delinked from Rashis, whether sayana or nirayana, and after a > > thorough debate, they may be pegged to the Junction Stars, if it is found > > that they have really anything to do with their namesake nakshatra divisions > > of the Vedas. If the scholars decide that the name-sake Junction stars also > > were thrust by Maya the mlechha on us on the basis of Hipparchus' Star > > catalogue or some other source and they have nothing to do > with the Vedic > > nakshatras, we may as well shun them and find some other way to decide the > > Vedic nakshatras. > > > > The beauty of the Vedic calendar lies in the fact that it combines both the > > lunar (synodic) and the solar months and years and pegs them to the natural > > phenomenon of seasons. > > > > For example, the Muslim calendar is based purely on synodic months, and > > since a synodic twelve month cycle is always short by about eleven days from > > a solar year, that is why we find Muslim festivals receding back every year > > by 11 days! Thus, if Id-uz-Zuha was (say) on December 31 in 1990, it would > > have been on December 20 in 1991, on December 9 in 1992, November 29 in 1993 > > and so on, with the result that after a period of about 33 years, it may be > > back on December 31 in around 2023! Thus none of the festivals of Hejira > > calendar remains stable! > > > > > On the other hand, a Vedic Vasanti Navratra always starts with the first New > > Moon after the start of Vasanta Ritu, since the "shortfall" of eleven days > > in a lunar cycle of twelve months vis-à-vis a solar year is compensated by > > an adhika-masa every 32/33 solar months. This adhika masa concept is in > > fact found in the ancient most work viz. the Rigveda "Veda maso dhrita vrato > > dwadasha prajavatah, veda ya upajayate" (Rigveda 1/25/8) i.e. "Varuna > > knows the twelve months, it also knows the thirteenth (adhika) month". > > > > If on the other hand, we peg the Hindu calendar to so called Lahiri or Raman > > or Muladhara etc. Rashichakra, we are faced with a peculiar situation! We > > are not following either Islamic calendar of a pure synodic months, nor are > > we following the real Vedic calendar pegged to seasons! It is not even the > > Pauranic calendar as that is aligned with > sayana rashis! Nor is it a > > geographical calendar, since that is dependent on the two Vishuvas and > > Ayanasa! We are just between two stools---and have fallen to the ground > > already! We are not celebrating Vasanta Navratras with the start of the > > Vasanta Ritu, but after one month of that ritu is already over! WE are not > > celebrating Sharadiya Navratras with the start of Sharad ritu but after one > > month of that ritu is already over. If we continue to follow this pattern, > > a day will come when we will celebrate Vasanti Navratras in Sharad Ritu and > > vice-versa! > > > > If at all we have to hug any Makar or Mehsa or karkata etc. Sankrantis, we > > must choose the lesser of two evils and embrace pauranic and sidhanti Makar, > > Mesha etc. Sankrantis, which are all so called Sayana--- and shun Lahiri etc > > Sankrantis. > > > > < I would like to request you to kindly make > a post (or direct me to a post) > > where we can identify the criteria for ascertaining the dates for the major > > festivals of India.> > > > > I find that is not open to uploading files. Nor does it store > > any attachments. I would request you to change this orientation so that > > documents can be uploaded in the files section. That way, instead of > > repeating everything in individual posts, it would be easier for me to give > > the members all the information that is already stored in the files section > > of Hinducalendar forum. As an alternative, since you are already a member > > of the Hinducalendar forum, you can upload any file you want to from that > > forum to jyotishgoup. Personally, I would recommend "koshur6.doc" , > > BVB6.doc; rashi5.doc., npj3.doc, BVB5.doc, PAC3.doc, shankar1.doc etc. etc. > > Kindly take time out to go through them and see it for yourself as to > what > > progress, if any, has already been made in the direction of calendar reform. > > > > <I would like to invite some of the scholars (and panchanga experts) to > > comment on these criteria and also delve on how far have we moved away from > > these criteria (rightly or wrongly).> > > > > You are most welcome to invite any scholar etc. to comment on these criteria > > since that is what I actually want and that is why I am posting my mails on > > every forum. I am posting separately "raman.doc" which will give you an > > idea about the efforts that I have been making in this direction. > > > > < Just one thing, lets keep 'Vedic Astrologer' and 'Rashis' out of this > > discussion as these are highly charged words!!> > > > > There is a saying in Hindi, "main to kambal ko chhod raha hoon, lekin kambal > > mujhe nahin chhod raa hai". The story goes like this: Some one > mistook a > > drowning bear for a woolen blanket of black colour and he jumped to collect > > that blanket. The bear, like a drowning man catching at a straw, caught > > hold of the savoir and would not leave him. A friend of the savoir from the > > river-bank shouted, "Why don't you let the blanket go?" and pat came the > > reply from the "man who mistook the bear for blanket, "I am trying to let > > the `blanket' go, but it is not allowing me to go". It is a similar story > > with "Vedic astrology" and rashis vis-à-vis calendar reform. > > > > It is on record that over the last at least three centuries efforts have > > been going on to put the "dismantled" Vedic calendar back on the track. > > This is evident from S. B. Dikshit's "Bharatiya Jyotisha Shastra". Similar > > panchanga standardization committees were held in Varanasi, Ujjain etc. etc. > > so much so that the Shankaracharya of Dwarka, > more than a hundred years > > back, even issued an aadesha patra that all the festivals should be > > celebrated on the basis of sayana rashichakra. That aadesha patra also is > > in Hinducalenar forum. The last such committee was the "Saha calendar > > reform committee" appointed by the GOI in 1953. Unfortunately for India, > > the net result of all such committees has been a fall back upon the same > > Grahalaghava ayanamsha, which late N. C. Lahiri cunningly manipulated by his > > devious methods by pegging it to an imaginary point that was conjunct the > > Vernal Equinox of 285 AD that was supposed to be opposite the Spica star > > then! It was actually a backdoor entry for Grahlaghava ayanamsha simply > > because Lahiri's Indian Ephemeris (English) and his Vishudha Sidhanti > > Panjika (Bangla) would not sell if he had switched over to zero ayanamsha or > > even Revati Ayanamsha, as was suggested by > all the stalwarts! > > > > This sabotage of the recommendations of the Saha Calenar Reform Committee > > will be clear from PAC3.doc in the files section of Hinducalendar forum! > > > > As such, it is a humble request to all the jyotishis, whether they call > > themselves Vedic or non-Vedic or even anti-Vedic, that they may use whatever > > ayanamsha or whatever system of prediction they choose for making correct > > predictions or patri melapak etc. etc., but they must leave calendar reform > > alone and not thrust the "almighty" Lahiri or Muladhara etc. Rashichakra > > down the throat of every Hindu. That is also a request to the Government of > > India. > > > > Anybody who can do such a Herculean task will really be the messiah of the > > real Vedic calendar. > > > > With regards, > > > > A K Kaul > > > > > > > > > > > > , "jyotishi" <raj@> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Kaul ji, > > > You have categorically and critically claimed that we are celebrating > > festivals on the wrong dates or in other words, the dates chosen for our > > festivals (by the panchanga makers - including the govt of india) do not > > follow the criteria available in our ancient texts for determining the dates > > for each festival. > > > > > > I think we should have an open mind to review whether and to what extent > > we are adhering to the criteria given in the ancient texts. In order to do > > this, we need to first identify those criteria. > > > > > > Kaulji, I would like to request you to kindly make a post (or direct me to > > a post) where we can identify the criteria for ascertaining the dates for > > the major festivals of India. > > > > > > > I would like to invite some of the scholars (and panchanga experts) to > > comment on these criteria and also delve on how far have we moved away from > > these criteria (rightly or wrongly). > > > > > > Just one thing, lets keep 'Vedic Astrologer' and 'Rashis' out of this > > discussion as these are highly charged words!! > > > > > > regards, > > > raj > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2009 Report Share Posted November 4, 2009 dear all, Please do not take the discussion this far. All students of astrology will appreciate that during muhurta analysis we essentially have to see panchanga parts individually (tithi, vara, karna, nakshatra and yoga). Pls analyse all and then decide whether a muhurta is auspicious or not. Just because a planet is in debilitation does not mean that heavens are going to fall. The issues in astrology require comprehensive analysis and not just peripheral deductions. I hope learned group agrees. chetan anishOn Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 8:21 AM, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya wrote: Shri Harimalla,Did I say I do not want timely celebration of the festivals? Or are you conveniently dodging my comment? I am pointing at the anti-Hindu double talkers, who want the astrologers to prove the validity of astrology and at the same time they threaten the Hindus (Jains and Buddhists included) regarding the correct date and time of the festivals. By the same logic they must give proof for what they say otherwise they should keep their mouth shut. Recently Shri Darshaneyji sent his date of festivals in 2010 and Shri Kaul seems to have appreciated that. Can you determine the right Muhurta for any festival from that? Is that not against the rules of the festivals? Have you raised any question on that so far? Please do not be so matlabi. Your matlab is to garner support for the calendar reform you and others have already initiated in Nepal. Please go ahead with that if you think what you are doing is the right thing. I feel that it would probably have been better if you would have circulated your proposals in advance and asked for opinions and suggestions. Instead of that you want to brainwash all people to think in your way that nakshatras are useless and why not consider 88 constellations instead of 27 nakshatras etc. etc. Sincerely,Sunil K. Bhattacharjya--- On Tue, 11/3/09, hari <harimalla wrote: hari <harimalla Re: Hindu festivals Date: Tuesday, November 3, 2009, 5:51 AM Dear Sunil Bhattacharyaji, namaskar! Are you such an atheist that you see no logic in the timely celebration of the festivals? If the festivals are not to be properly timed then what is to be? The whole society suffers if the festivals are untimely. All believers know this. Do you not? Hari Malla ancient_indian_ astrology, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote: > > Dear Kursijaji, > > Yes I agree. These are the issues, which make one think. Nothing can be bulldozed. In many cases consensus would give the solution. Surprisingly the people, who do not believe in the predictive astrology and in Paroksha interpretation ie. who wants only and only direct tangible proof and effects, are raising the bogey, by making baseless prediction, that calamity will befall as the festivals are not being observed in the right time. Can they explain their prediction? > > Regards, > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 6, 2009 Report Share Posted November 6, 2009 Dear Rajji, It would be nice to see your attempt at it. Please forward it to parvasudhar forum too when it is ready. thanks, Hari Malla , " jyotishi " <raj wrote: > > Thanks for the heads up. I am in the process of compiling the 'criteria' for celebrating all the major festivals of India (Hindu & Jain) so that we can objectively see which criterion is met and which is not for each festival. The criteria would include season, panchanga and cultural references. > > To me the issue does not seem to be seasonal v/s sidereal calendar (which also means Sayana v/s Nirayana). This has more to do with Assumptions made by various reform committees, ancient and modern texts that may or may not hold true today. > > warm regards, > raj > > > , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya@> wrote: > > > > Dear Rajji, > > > > There are Hindu festivals which require both the Sidereal calendar and the Seasonal (Tropical) calendar. For example the Harvest festival, which is observed by different communities, is a season-based festival as the agriculture depends on the Monsoon. which in turn is seasonal. If ceratin seasonal festivals are not being properly observed on the basis of season then one has every right to protest. > > > > However there are many festivals which depend on the Sidereal calendar. For example the Ram-Navami is to be observed on the Shukla-Navami day in the month of Chaitra. Valmiki Ramayana clearly mentions the month of Chaitra. It may be true that some portions of the Balakanda and the Uttarakanda could have been modified by Valmiki at a later date to project Lord Rama as God or it could even be that some other rishi could have added these two kandas to the Ramayana later on. Whatever may be the case one has to rely on the data given in the Ramayana. We cannot rely on other data if that goes against that data given in the Ramayaana. Some people may think that we have to observe the Ram-Navami in the month of Madhu as some later day texts have mentioned the month of madhu as the birth-month of Lord Rama. It could have been so at the time of Lord Rama but the seasonal months go on changing due to precession. That shows that we have to stick to what has > > been given in the Valmiki Ramayana only. We have also to keep in mind that according to the Rigveda. the Moon is the maker of the month. Both the Purnimanta and the Amanta months are there in the Veda. The Lunar and Soli-Lunar months are Purnimanta and Amanta and these are based on the Purnima and Amavashya in the Nakshtras . I have shown in one of the earlier mails in the group that when Lord Rama was born the the Month was Chaitra and the Sun was around 183 degrees in the Chitra nakshatra and this points to the Purnimanta Chaitra month. > > > > Now let us take another case. The Kartika Vrata in month of Kartika is observed by the pious Hindus.The Kartika month is holy to the Hindus and it considered to be the month of Mother Radha. Tulsi pujan is also done in this month. Simalarly the Shravana month is observed by the Shiva bhaktas. Another example is the Ashadha Ekadashi, which is observed in the month of Ashadha. In the Bhagavad Gita Lord Krishna told about the month of Margashirsha. The Uttarakhanda of the Padma purana tells us about the importance of all these months, which are sidereal. It will go against the very basis of Hindu festivals if the Sidereal calendar is abolished. I think the Hindus being tolerant are tolerating this campaign of some people to abolish the sidereal calendar. but before people turn violent we have to see that this anti-Hindu campaign stops.. > > > > I am not against the Seasonal calendar. I feel that if it is possible let us accommodate the Seasonal calendar alongside the regular Sidereal calendar. Nobody in proper frame of mind can think of abolishing the Sidereal calendar. If there is opposition to the existence of Sidereal calendar then we should better forget about accommodating the seasonal calendar. > > > > Regards, > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > --- On Mon, 11/2/09, jyotishi <raj@> wrote: > > > > jyotishi <raj@> > > Re: Hindu festivals > > > > Monday, November 2, 2009, 7:53 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > thank you. I will respond shortly. > > > > > > > > regards, > > > > raj > > > > > > > > , " jyotirved " <jyotirved@ ..> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear Raj ji, > > > > > > > > > > Many thanks for your post regarding the above topic. > > > > > > > > > > I am really glad that a jyotishi also is taking interest in calendar reform! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <You have categorically and critically claimed that we are celebrating > > > > > festivals on the wrong dates or in other words, the dates chosen for our > > > > > festivals (by the panchanga makers - including the govt of india) do not > > > > > follow the criteria available in our ancient texts for determining the dates > > > > > for each festival. > > > > > > > > > > > You are absolutely right. These days we are celebrating all our festivals > > > > > neither as per the Vedas, nor Puranas nor sidhantas, and surprisingly, not > > > > > even as per Primary School level geography but only as per the whims and > > > > > fancies of some " almighties " like Lahiriwalas and Ramanawalas and so on. I > > > > > have made quite a few representations to all those who matter, including the > > > > > President of India, New Delhi; Postional Astronomy Centre and the India > > > > > Meteorological Department (publishers of Rashtriya Panchanga) etc. etc. in > > > > > this regard, as will be clear from the papers in the files section of > > > > > Hinducalendar forum. > > > > > The calendar reform has been a process of evolution for me personally on the > > > > > lines of the Vedas and the Puranas. To start with, I was totally enamoured > > > > > of Grahalghava etc. Makar Sankrantis and other festivals, and believe it or > > > > > not, it was through predictive astrology--- nirayana, with > > > > > Lahiri/Grahalaghava ayanamsha, of course!----that I started delving deep > > > > > into calendar reform! It was an inadvertent wake-up call for me, since when > > > > > I found quite a few predictions not coming true because of one ayanamsha, I > > > > > experimented with other ayanamshas, and finally delved deep into sidhantas > > > > > and the Puranas! > > > > > > > > > > From a perusal of all those puranas and sidhantas, I concluded that it was > > > > > the " Tropical zodiac " (Sayana Rashichakra) that was being followed by all > > > > > of them for festivals and by implication, the Pauranic and sidhantic > > > > > authorities must have been following it even for astrological predictions! > > > > > I therefore started a crusade for Tropical Zodiac i.e. Sayana Rashichakra, > > > > > presuming that since that was the basis of Pauranic festivals, it must be > > > > > the basis of not only Vedic festivals but even the real Vedic astrology. > > > > > That crusade lasted for a considerable period through my Panchangas and > > > > > surprisingly, I even made quite a few correct predictions on the basis of > > > > > Sayana Rashichakra and secondary progressions etc. For one of those > > > > > predictions, I was awarded NOSTRADAMUS Award by His Holiness of Kanchi > > > > > Kamakoti, Swami Jayendra Saraswati, at Kanchi, (and not at Delhi!). My to > > > > > and fro expenses of air-fair and stay at a five-star hotel in Chennai etc. > > > > > etc. apart from a cheque for Rs. 11000/- as back as 1995, also were borne > > > > > by Express Star Teller Magazine, who had started that award. That > > > > > strengthened my view that Tropical astrology was the real Vedic astrology, > > > > > which it is not, as we shall see shortly! > > > > > > > > > > Since " the greatest Vedic astrologer of the twentieth century " viz. Dr. B. > > > > > V. Raman etc. called the nirayana astrology as Vedic, I was intrigued as to > > > > > how could the Vedic Rashis be different from the Paurnic and sidhantic! I, > > > > > therefore, went through all the Vedas and the Vedanga Jyotisha etc. with a > > > > > tooth comb! > > > > > > > > > > As is common knowledge by now, there were/are absolutely no Mesha, Vrisha > > > > > etc. Rashis in the Vedas! So to call them sayana or nirayana was just > > > > > meaningless and tacking at the air! > > > > > > > > > > In my panchangas, I had been clubbing Ashvini, Bharni etc. nakshatras also > > > > > with Sayana Rashichakra since that was what was done by the Hindu > > > > > astrologers on the basis of the Surya Sidhanta. That very practice of > > > > > Ashvini etc. nakshatras being clubbed with Sayana rashis continued to be > > > > > followed at the time of Alberuni i.e. eleventh century in India. But a > > > > > member of Indiaarchaeology forum, Shri Paul Kekai Manansala, drew my > > > > > attention to the fact that Tropical Rashis could never be clubbed with > > > > > Ashvini, Bharni etc. nakshatras! > > > > > > > > > > That set me thinking again as to how the Puranas had talked of a sayana > > > > > rashichakra and also nakshatras, in one and the same breath, whereas the > > > > > Vedas talked about the nakshatras times without number but did not mention, > > > > > much less link them, with any Mesha etc. rashis, which were conspicuous by > > > > > their absence from the same! There was yet another dichotomy: The year as > > > > > per the Vedanga Jyotisha started from Uttarayana but the nakshatras started > > > > > from Kritiika as against Ashvini (as is happening these days) or Dhanishtha > > > > > where the Uttarayana was located then! > > > > > > > > > > It dawned on me much later in the day that nakshatras had nothing to do with > > > > > Madhu, Madhava etc. months---the real Vedic months instead of Mesha, Vrisha > > > > > etc. rashis---since the latter were/are seasonal and immune to the effects > > > > > of precession of equinoxes! Thus if the Vernal Equinox was the Vasanta > > > > > Sampat i.e when the day was equal to night in 10000 BCE, it will remain so > > > > > in 10000 AD as well, when the day will be equal to night again, irrespective > > > > > of the fact that if the VE was in nakshatra " A " (the first nakshatra of the > > > > > nakshatra chakra) in 10000 BCE, it may be in nakshatra " Z " (the last > > > > > nakshatra of that very nakshatra chakra) in 10000 AD, but Vernal Equinox > > > > > would continue to be Vasanta Sampat i.e., when day is equal to night! > > > > > Similarly, if Madhu was the first month of Vasanta Ritu (the month before > > > > > the VE) in 10000 BCE, it will be the first month of that very Vasanta Ritu > > > > > in 10000 AD as well, since the Vasanta Ritu (Spring season) will always > > > > > start a month prior to the Vernal Equinox, unaffected by precession of > > > > > equinoxes! > > > > > > > > > > It means that it is only Mesha, Vrisha etc. rashis that are creating the > > > > > confusion of so called sayana and nirayana and so on whereas there are no > > > > > such confusions and dichotomies in the Vedas or the Vedic months, much less > > > > > the Vedic seasons! > > > > > > > > > > In fact, the Vedic calendar is the most scientific and the most wonderful as > > > > > well beautiful calendar the world could ever have! It is unlike all the > > > > > other calendars the world over! It is directly linked to the four cardinal > > > > > points viz. the two equinoxes and two solstices and to the resulting Madhu, > > > > > Madhava etc. months. It is to those very Madhu, Madhava months to which the > > > > > synodic months are pegged! Thus the real Vedic synodic (what most people > > > > > call lunar) months are also immune to precession, since they are directly > > > > > linked to seasonal solar months! Thus if the lunar Vasanti Navratra > > > > > started with the first New Moon (Amanta---Shukla pratipat) after the month > > > > > of Madhu in 10000 BCE, it will start similarly in 10000 AD also, i.e., the > > > > > first New Moon after the month of Madhu---you may as well say the last new > > > > > Moon before the Vernal Equinox----will be the start of the lunar > > > > > Vasanti-Navratra- cum-Chaitra in 10000 AD also just as it was so in 10000 BC. > > > > > That will be the first month of Vasanta Ritu therefore in 10000 AD, as it > > > > > was in 10000 BCE. > > > > > > > > > > Thus when we say that Bhagwan Ram was born on Chaitra Shukla Navmi in > > > > > Vasanta Ritu, it was thus Shukla_navmi of the first lunar month of Vasanta > > > > > Ritu---the last New Moon before the Vernal Equinox---known as the month of > > > > > Madhu in the Vedanga Jyotisha---where there is no confusion of any Mesha, > > > > > Vrisha etc. rashis nor the so called sayana or nirayana etc. cacophony! > > > > > > > > > > This was a revelation to me that the Vedas were really without Mesha etc. > > > > > Rashis and that is why the Vedic calendar is the most scientific and a > > > > > durable one! If you peruse the history of Vedic calendar, it is only after > > > > > the introduction of Mehsa, Vrisha etc. rashis through the Surya Sidhanta of > > > > > Maya the mlechha that things have gone helter-skelter! We have become > > > > > completely delinked from the Madhu, Madhaa etc. months and the four cardinal > > > > > points and got hooked to Mesha, Vrisha etc. Rashis about which nobody knows > > > > > as to which rashi starts from where, if at all it starts from any point! > > > > > > > > > > Since I could not find any Mesha, Vrisha etc. rashis in the Vedas and the > > > > > Vedanga Jyotisha etc., I was just mad with rage as to how the Vedic seers > > > > > had been so negligent as not to talk about them at all, as all the > > > > > astrologers the world over had been dinning it into my ears that Mesha, > > > > > Vrisha etc. rashis were astronomical twelve equal divisions of the zodiac, > > > > > which in itself was " rock solid " ! > > > > > > > > > > I had therefore to delve deeper into astronomical works as well so as to see > > > > > as to what had gone wrong and where about the Vedic lore as to why the Seers > > > > > had not talked about Mesha, Vrisha etc. Rashis and Mangal, Shanie etc. > > > > > planets, when the whole world had been talking about the same over the last > > > > > at least two thousand years! > > > > > > > > > > To my surprise, I found that the Vedic seers were more advanced than all the > > > > > astronomers the world over put together a few thousand years back! > > > > > Astronomically, zodiac (the famous Rashichakra/ bhachakra of the sidhantas > > > > > and Puranas and jyotishis!) is nothing but " an imaginary belt of the heavens > > > > > centering on the ecliptic, within which are the apparent paths of the sun, > > > > > moon and principal planets " . Zodiac is actually a Greek word which in > > > > > itself means a " circle of animals " . It was actually divided into many more > > > > > parts---all of them unequal----than twelve and each part was known as a > > > > > constellation by Greek astronomers. Prominent among those constellations > > > > > were Aries, Taurus etc. thirteen (including Ophuchius) Greek > > > > > constellations- ---none equal to one another. These constellations are > > > > > supposed to have resembled some figures in the past e.g. a cluster of > > > > > millions and billions of stars is supposed to have resembled a Ram in the > > > > > hoary past by Babylonian astrologers, and yet another part resembled a Bull > > > > > and so on. That is why they named those portions as Aries, Taurus and so > > > > > on. Even those constellations no longer resemble those figures these days, > > > > > because of the Proper Motion of stars, but somehow, IAU is sill calling > > > > > those constellations by those very names. > > > > > > > > > > Those very unequal constellations were used by Greco-Chaldean astrologers > > > > > for astrological predictions, under the impression that since those " groups " > > > > > contained stars they were affecting every Tom, Dick and Harry through > > > > > " divine entities " like Mars, Jupiter, Saturn etc. etc. Instead of > > > > > considering the actual unequal imaginary constellations even for > > > > > predictions, they just divided the already imaginary zodiac into twelve > > > > > imaginary divisions, and called each division by the original name of Aries, > > > > > Taurus etc. Thus you will not find any astrological sign Aries, Taurus etc. > > > > > corresponding at all with the exact constellation of that very name e.g. > > > > > Astrological sign Aries is away by light years from the constellation Aries > > > > > and astrological sign Taurus is away by Light years from the constellation > > > > > Taurus and so on! Still jyotishis claim to be making correct predictions > > > > > from those very imaginary " equal animals " (Rashis) of imaginary " unequal > > > > > animals " (constellations) of a still more imaginary circle named zodiac > > > > > which extends about nine/ten degrees above and below of yet another > > > > > imaginary circle known as Ecliptic! My God! It is real imagination run > > > > > riot! > > > > > > > > > > NATURALLY, THE VEDIC SEERS WERE REAL SCIENTISTS NOT TO HAVE THOUGHT OF SUCH > > > > > IMAGINARY " TWELVE EQUAL ANIMAL DIVISIONS " OF " UNEQUAL ANIMALS " ! > > > > > > > > > > Anyway, coming back to our Vedic calendar, it was the same imaginary circle > > > > > of imaginary twelve imaginary animals that Maya the mlechha thrust on us and > > > > > we got dislodged completely from Madhu, Madhava etc. months and the real > > > > > Vedic nakshtras like Krittika, Mrigasira etc. > > > > > > > > > > Thus, if we really want to streamline our Vedic calendar and put it back on > > > > > the real Vedic track, we have to completely eliminate Mesha, Vrisha etc. > > > > > rashis from our vocabulary, just as the Vedic seers had done it, and delink > > > > > nakshatras completely from not only the non-existent rashis but even Madhu, > > > > > Madhava etc. months to which they were never linked, in the first place. > > > > > > > > > > If because of our infatuation with predictive gimmicks, we are unable to > > > > > forget Mesha, Vrisha etc. Rashis, then we must at the best or even at the > > > > > worst use the so called Sayana Rashis for the real Vedic months like Mina > > > > > for Madhu, Mesha for Madhava and so on, since that is what all the Puranas > > > > > and sidhantas have done. > > > > > > > > > > That way we can at least claim that we are celebrating our festivals in > > > > > accordance with the Puranas if not the Vedas! Nakshatras have to be > > > > > completely delinked from Rashis, whether sayana or nirayana, and after a > > > > > thorough debate, they may be pegged to the Junction Stars, if it is found > > > > > that they have really anything to do with their namesake nakshatra divisions > > > > > of the Vedas. If the scholars decide that the name-sake Junction stars also > > > > > were thrust by Maya the mlechha on us on the basis of Hipparchus' Star > > > > > catalogue or some other source and they have nothing to do with the Vedic > > > > > nakshatras, we may as well shun them and find some other way to decide the > > > > > Vedic nakshatras. > > > > > > > > > > The beauty of the Vedic calendar lies in the fact that it combines both the > > > > > lunar (synodic) and the solar months and years and pegs them to the natural > > > > > phenomenon of seasons. > > > > > > > > > > For example, the Muslim calendar is based purely on synodic months, and > > > > > since a synodic twelve month cycle is always short by about eleven days from > > > > > a solar year, that is why we find Muslim festivals receding back every year > > > > > by 11 days! Thus, if Id-uz-Zuha was (say) on December 31 in 1990, it would > > > > > have been on December 20 in 1991, on December 9 in 1992, November 29 in 1993 > > > > > and so on, with the result that after a period of about 33 years, it may be > > > > > back on December 31 in around 2023! Thus none of the festivals of Hejira > > > > > calendar remains stable! > > > > > > > > > > On the other hand, a Vedic Vasanti Navratra always starts with the first New > > > > > Moon after the start of Vasanta Ritu, since the " shortfall " of eleven days > > > > > in a lunar cycle of twelve months vis-à-vis a solar year is compensated by > > > > > an adhika-masa every 32/33 solar months. This adhika masa concept is in > > > > > fact found in the ancient most work viz. the Rigveda " Veda maso dhrita vrato > > > > > dwadasha prajavatah, veda ya upajayate " (Rigveda 1/25/8) i.e. " Varuna > > > > > knows the twelve months, it also knows the thirteenth (adhika) month " . > > > > > > > > > > If on the other hand, we peg the Hindu calendar to so called Lahiri or Raman > > > > > or Muladhara etc. Rashichakra, we are faced with a peculiar situation! We > > > > > are not following either Islamic calendar of a pure synodic months, nor are > > > > > we following the real Vedic calendar pegged to seasons! It is not even the > > > > > Pauranic calendar as that is aligned with sayana rashis! Nor is it a > > > > > geographical calendar, since that is dependent on the two Vishuvas and > > > > > Ayanasa! We are just between two stools---and have fallen to the ground > > > > > already! We are not celebrating Vasanta Navratras with the start of the > > > > > Vasanta Ritu, but after one month of that ritu is already over! WE are not > > > > > celebrating Sharadiya Navratras with the start of Sharad ritu but after one > > > > > month of that ritu is already over. If we continue to follow this pattern, > > > > > a day will come when we will celebrate Vasanti Navratras in Sharad Ritu and > > > > > vice-versa! > > > > > > > > > > If at all we have to hug any Makar or Mehsa or karkata etc. Sankrantis, we > > > > > must choose the lesser of two evils and embrace pauranic and sidhanti Makar, > > > > > Mesha etc. Sankrantis, which are all so called Sayana--- and shun Lahiri etc > > > > > Sankrantis. > > > > > > > > > > < I would like to request you to kindly make a post (or direct me to a post) > > > > > where we can identify the criteria for ascertaining the dates for the major > > > > > festivals of India.> > > > > > > > > > > I find that is not open to uploading files. Nor does it store > > > > > any attachments. I would request you to change this orientation so that > > > > > documents can be uploaded in the files section. That way, instead of > > > > > repeating everything in individual posts, it would be easier for me to give > > > > > the members all the information that is already stored in the files section > > > > > of Hinducalendar forum. As an alternative, since you are already a member > > > > > of the Hinducalendar forum, you can upload any file you want to from that > > > > > forum to jyotishgoup. Personally, I would recommend " koshur6.doc " , > > > > > BVB6.doc; rashi5.doc., npj3.doc, BVB5.doc, PAC3.doc, shankar1.doc etc. etc. > > > > > Kindly take time out to go through them and see it for yourself as to what > > > > > progress, if any, has already been made in the direction of calendar reform. > > > > > > > > > > <I would like to invite some of the scholars (and panchanga experts) to > > > > > comment on these criteria and also delve on how far have we moved away from > > > > > these criteria (rightly or wrongly).> > > > > > > > > > > You are most welcome to invite any scholar etc. to comment on these criteria > > > > > since that is what I actually want and that is why I am posting my mails on > > > > > every forum. I am posting separately " raman.doc " which will give you an > > > > > idea about the efforts that I have been making in this direction. > > > > > > > > > > < Just one thing, lets keep 'Vedic Astrologer' and 'Rashis' out of this > > > > > discussion as these are highly charged words!!> > > > > > > > > > > There is a saying in Hindi, " main to kambal ko chhod raha hoon, lekin kambal > > > > > mujhe nahin chhod raa hai " . The story goes like this: Some one mistook a > > > > > drowning bear for a woolen blanket of black colour and he jumped to collect > > > > > that blanket. The bear, like a drowning man catching at a straw, caught > > > > > hold of the savoir and would not leave him. A friend of the savoir from the > > > > > river-bank shouted, " Why don't you let the blanket go? " and pat came the > > > > > reply from the " man who mistook the bear for blanket, " I am trying to let > > > > > the `blanket' go, but it is not allowing me to go " . It is a similar story > > > > > with " Vedic astrology " and rashis vis-à-vis calendar reform. > > > > > > > > > > It is on record that over the last at least three centuries efforts have > > > > > been going on to put the " dismantled " Vedic calendar back on the track. > > > > > This is evident from S. B. Dikshit's " Bharatiya Jyotisha Shastra " . Similar > > > > > panchanga standardization committees were held in Varanasi, Ujjain etc. etc. > > > > > so much so that the Shankaracharya of Dwarka, more than a hundred years > > > > > back, even issued an aadesha patra that all the festivals should be > > > > > celebrated on the basis of sayana rashichakra. That aadesha patra also is > > > > > in Hinducalenar forum. The last such committee was the " Saha calendar > > > > > reform committee " appointed by the GOI in 1953. Unfortunately for India, > > > > > the net result of all such committees has been a fall back upon the same > > > > > Grahalaghava ayanamsha, which late N. C. Lahiri cunningly manipulated by his > > > > > devious methods by pegging it to an imaginary point that was conjunct the > > > > > Vernal Equinox of 285 AD that was supposed to be opposite the Spica star > > > > > then! It was actually a backdoor entry for Grahlaghava ayanamsha simply > > > > > because Lahiri's Indian Ephemeris (English) and his Vishudha Sidhanti > > > > > Panjika (Bangla) would not sell if he had switched over to zero ayanamsha or > > > > > even Revati Ayanamsha, as was suggested by all the stalwarts! > > > > > > > > > > This sabotage of the recommendations of the Saha Calenar Reform Committee > > > > > will be clear from PAC3.doc in the files section of Hinducalendar forum! > > > > > > > > > > As such, it is a humble request to all the jyotishis, whether they call > > > > > themselves Vedic or non-Vedic or even anti-Vedic, that they may use whatever > > > > > ayanamsha or whatever system of prediction they choose for making correct > > > > > predictions or patri melapak etc. etc., but they must leave calendar reform > > > > > alone and not thrust the " almighty " Lahiri or Muladhara etc. Rashichakra > > > > > down the throat of every Hindu. That is also a request to the Government of > > > > > India. > > > > > > > > > > Anybody who can do such a Herculean task will really be the messiah of the > > > > > real Vedic calendar. > > > > > > > > > > With regards, > > > > > > > > > > A K Kaul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " jyotishi " <raj@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Kaul ji, > > > > > > You have categorically and critically claimed that we are celebrating > > > > > festivals on the wrong dates or in other words, the dates chosen for our > > > > > festivals (by the panchanga makers - including the govt of india) do not > > > > > follow the criteria available in our ancient texts for determining the dates > > > > > for each festival. > > > > > > > > > > > > I think we should have an open mind to review whether and to what extent > > > > > we are adhering to the criteria given in the ancient texts. In order to do > > > > > this, we need to first identify those criteria. > > > > > > > > > > > > Kaulji, I would like to request you to kindly make a post (or direct me to > > > > > a post) where we can identify the criteria for ascertaining the dates for > > > > > the major festivals of India. > > > > > > > > > > > > I would like to invite some of the scholars (and panchanga experts) to > > > > > comment on these criteria and also delve on how far have we moved away from > > > > > these criteria (rightly or wrongly). > > > > > > > > > > > > Just one thing, lets keep 'Vedic Astrologer' and 'Rashis' out of this > > > > > discussion as these are highly charged words!! > > > > > > > > > > > > regards, > > > > > > raj > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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