Guest guest Posted November 5, 2009 Report Share Posted November 5, 2009 Dear friends,There is misunderstanding among some people regarding what is the meant by the fifth Dear friends, There is misunderstanding among some people regarding what is the meant by the fifth Veda and what does it say about the Uttarayana. L:et us see what these things are: 1) The Fifth Veda The Puranas have been called by the Chandogya Upanishad and the Brihadaranyak upanishad as the fifth Veda. Vayu Purana tells us that before Vedavyasa divided the Vedas and the upanishads all the Vedas and the Puranas were together as a single Veda. When Vedavyasa found that it wast became almost impossible for any single individual to master all that is encompassed in the Veda, he divided and rearranged the original single Veda into five parts ie. the four Vedas (Rig, Yajur, Sama and Atharva Veda) and the fifth Veda comprising all the Puranas together. The Mahabharata tells us that one must study the Puranas and Itihasas before reading the Vedas. Thus no one can afford to think the Puranas to be any lower than the Vedas. Again some uninformed people grudgingly say that the Bhagavad purana alone may be the fifth Veda. Nothing can be further from the truth. All the major puranas are important. However Padmapurana tells us that the Bhagavat purana is best among the Puranas. It is somehing like Lord Rama telling Hanuman that if anybody can read only one Upanishad that must-read will be the Mandukya Upanishad. That does not mean that one can ignore the other Upanishads. 2) Uttarayana Before we discuss Uttarayana it is necessary to define what is "Rashi", as that comes in the discussion on Uttarayn a and also difine the word "Uttarayan" also. (i) Definition of Rashi The rashi is defined in the Vamana purana as containg nine padas (quarters) of Nakshatras, ie, two and a quarter nakshatras. Thus the ecliptic of 27 nakshatras are divided into 27 parts for 27 nakshatras and the ecliptic is further divided int 12 parts each called as rashi. The rashi contains two ans a quarter of rashis in each of them. Vamana purana tells us which are the nakshatras in which rashi. As the nakshatras are fixed so are the rashis by definition. These fixed rashis are called Nirayana rashis using a later-day word "Nirayana" ( Nih+ ayana, where nih means no and ayana means movement, though ayana has other meanings too). There term was not used in the ancient times as there wqas no need for that because everybody knew that rashis are fixed. That is how this word Nirayana has entered the vocabulary. We the Hindus believe that all the words have been coined at one time or the other except AUM or OM. So no sensible person ever questions the use of the word Nirayana. Some unscrupulous people at some time in later-day history imagined the Rashis also to be moving according to the precessional movement. These people call these rashis to be moving and not fixed and called the imaginary moving rashis as Sayana rashis ie Rashis with movement. If this type of audacity would have taken place in Lord Rama's time he would have had these people killed summarily. (ii) Definition of Uttarayana .. Uttarayana comes from combination of the the words Uttara, which means North and Ayana, which means movement. Thus Uttarayana means the Sun's northerly movement. Similarly Dakshinayana means the southerly movement of the Sun, in the geocentric model of the Solar system. These two movements occur due to precessional m,evement of tyhe Earth. (iii) Uttarayana as described by the Fifth Veda Now having defined the Fifth Veda, the Rashi and the Uttarayana let us see what the fifth Veda says about the Uttarayana. Vishnu purana (2.8.28 - 31) says that the Northerly movement of the Sun begins when the Sun is in the Makar rash. Then the Sun moves to Kumbha and Mina and after passing through these three signs it goes to the Vishuvati (the equator) and makes day and night equal. Thereafter the nights go on diminishing and days go on increasing. After the end of Mithuna ie. in the Karkata rashi the day is the longest and then the southerly movement begins. Vishnu purana (2.8.67 - 68) again says that the equinoxes occur in the middle of the Sharad and the Vasanta seasons, when the Sun enters the Tula and Mesha rashis respectively and the days and nights become equal. The southerly movement occurs when the Sun is in the Karkata and the Northerly moveement occurs when the sun is in the Makara rashi. Please note here that nowhere it says that the points are at the beginning of Makara and Karkata. In fact in Vedanga Jyotisha the points are in the Dhanishtha nakshatra in the Makar rashi ie towards the end of the Makar rashi. Bhagavat purana 5.21.4 - 6) uses the word "Vartate", which means toi stay. .It says that when the Sun is (or stays) in the Mesha and Tula the days and nights are equal and while passing through the five rashis from Vrishabha the days go on increasing and nights go on diminishing by one ghatika every month. When the Sun is passing through the five rashis from Vrischika there is viparyaya ie. ther is upset or the reverse occurs. In the Uttarayana the days increase and in the Dakshinayana the nights increase. Vishnu Dharmottara Purana (3.8.6- 8) also says the same thing. In Vishnu Dharmottara Purana (3.9.4 n- 5) the names of the seasonal months are given along with corresponding Sidereal months. You can very well notice that in the Vedanga jyotisha also the monh Tapa corresponded with the Siderael month of Magha. There is correspondence of the time periods in the puranas and the Vedanga Jyotisha as shown avove and this means they refer to what happened at the same period of time.. The critics of the Hindu Jyotisha want to say that the ancient Hindu astronomers did not know about precession and that the positions of the solstices and equinoxes given in the above puranas for a particular time has to remain the same for ever. It is simply the ignorance of these critics. Further for your information most of the Indian panchanga makers follow the Suryasiddhanta and Grahalaghava for their calculations and only for the absolute accuracy in the time (ie. for accuracy upto second) of the eclipses they take information from the Positional Astronomy Centre in Kolkata. Some ignorant critics unnecessarily mistakenly blame the honest Panchanga makers as taking all data from the modern astronomy centres and yet applying corrections there. Then some such critics blame about the different values of the ayanamasa corrections but have they quantified the effect of these variations of the ayanamashas? Hindu jyotishis have become theitr punching bags all the time,possibly at the behest of some foreign agencies In conclusion I wish to say that the Fifth Veda holds that the rashis are Nirayana or fixed and the Uttarayana referred to in the purana was true at the time it was incorporated in these puranas. Puranas by virtue of their five compulsory criteria had to update the history, which of course includes the astronomical informations at different times. Because of the changes due to the precession of the Earth the ancient astronomers recorded the solstices and the equinoxes occurring at different nakshatras at different times. Regards, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 5, 2009 Report Share Posted November 5, 2009 Dear Sunil Ji,I congratulate you to bring out the issues of debate very clearly.I have replied to Shri Harimalla ji as under:QuoteI have already replied to your mail earlier.Some persons say that some evidence is therein Puranas that Makar Sankranti was celebrated on the ingress of Sun in Tropical Capricorn.There are Four Vedas , Six Shastras , lot of Aranyak grantha and 42 puranas (including major and minor )'andthen vast litrature on astronomy and astrology (Samhita,Jatak, and Mahurta).Mahurta is the back bone of all astrologicalpractices in Indian Sub-continent, Mahurta depend on five limbsof Panchang"1. Day 2 Lunal Tithi 3 Nakshatra (27 -very well defined in all upnishads , and samhitas ) 4 Karan - half part of the tithi5 Yoga - formed by the addition of sidreal longitudes of Sun and MoonSidreal Makar sankranti is celebrated based on clear cut injuctions given in Mahurta granths.If some person wish to celebrate Makar Sankranti on ingress of Sun in Tropical Capricorn , who is objecting it.But the poeple of India are celebrating MAKAR SANKRANTI on the ingressof Sun in Sidreal CAPRICORN ,is in line of mahurta shastra.Who are these person's like Mr. kaul to object it. UNQUoTEMaharishi Parasara has precisely explained the concept of signs to his disciple Maitraye in chapter 3, slokas 4, 5 and 6 of BPHS: “Those, celestial bodies are called the planets (Grahas) that move through the Nakshatras (or asterisms) along the Zodiac (Bhachakra). The Zodiac comprises of 27 asterisms from Aswin to Revati and also devided in 12 equal parts known as signs (Rashis) from Aries to Pisces. The Zodiac sign which contains the rising (ascending) point at the time of Birth is called Lagna (ascendant)”. Based on the ascendant and the planets joining and separating from each other, the native’s good and bad fortune is deductedI may like to clarify one or two points raised in your mail:1. Panchang makers are collecting astronomical data from positional astronomical centers as this data is more precise and they apply it strait away to their software developed for this purpose.They are not compromising on principles. 2. No doubt Sage Vaysa divided the knowledge in the form of four Vedas but they are not available in complete form. Whatever of vedas are now available it is in its origional and uncurrupted form.3 In case of Puranas , there are many additions and delitions , some times this creates confusion.4. It is very important that what are the present practices. After all we are not living in static society. The social practices has to be vibrant and flexible.5. The critics completely ignorind Mahurta shastra- 27 NAKSHATRAS ARE THE BACK BONE OF MAHURTA. I am attaching one of my article in which these matters are examined in some detail (may be now needa some updating). RegardsG. K. Goel From: sunil_bhattacharjyaDate: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 20:30:20 -0800 The Fifth Veda and the Uttarayana Dear friends,There is misunderstanding among some people regarding what is the meant by the fifth Dear friends, There is misunderstanding among some people regarding what is the meant by the fifth Veda and what does it say about the Uttarayana. L:et us see what these things are: 1) The Fifth Veda The Puranas have been called by the Chandogya Upanishad and the Brihadaranyak upanishad as the fifth Veda. Vayu Purana tells us that before Vedavyasa divided the Vedas and the upanishads all the Vedas and the Puranas were together as a single Veda. When Vedavyasa found that it wast became almost impossible for any single individual to master all that is encompassed in the Veda, he divided and rearranged the original single Veda into five parts ie. the four Vedas (Rig, Yajur, Sama and Atharva Veda) and the fifth Veda comprising all the Puranas together. The Mahabharata tells us that one must study the Puranas and Itihasas before reading the Vedas. Thus no one can afford to think the Puranas to be any lower than the Vedas. Again some uninformed people grudgingly say that the Bhagavad purana alone may be the fifth Veda. Nothing can be further from the truth. All the major puranas are important. However Padmapurana tells us that the Bhagavat purana is best among the Puranas. It is somehing like Lord Rama telling Hanuman that if anybody can read only one Upanishad that must-read will be the Mandukya Upanishad. That does not mean that one can ignore the other Upanishads. 2) Uttarayana Before we discuss Uttarayana it is necessary to define what is "Rashi", as that comes in the discussion on Uttarayn a and also difine the word "Uttarayan" also. (i) Definition of Rashi The rashi is defined in the Vamana purana as containg nine padas (quarters) of Nakshatras, ie, two and a quarter nakshatras. Thus the ecliptic of 27 nakshatras are divided into 27 parts for 27 nakshatras and the ecliptic is further divided int 12 parts each called as rashi. The rashi contains two ans a quarter of rashis in each of them. Vamana purana tells us which are the nakshatras in which rashi. As the nakshatras are fixed so are the rashis by definition. These fixed rashis are called Nirayana rashis using a later-day word "Nirayana" ( Nih+ ayana, where nih means no and ayana means movement, though ayana has other meanings too). There term was not used in the ancient times as there wqas no need for that because everybody knew that rashis are fixed. That is how this word Nirayana has entered the vocabulary. We the Hindus believe that all the words have been coined at one time or the other except AUM or OM. So no sensible person ever questions the use of the word Nirayana. Some unscrupulous people at some time in later-day history imagined the Rashis also to be moving according to the precessional movement. These people call these rashis to be moving and not fixed and called the imaginary moving rashis as Sayana rashis ie Rashis with movement. If this type of audacity would have taken place in Lord Rama's time he would have had these people killed summarily. (ii) Definition of Uttarayana .. Uttarayana comes from combination of the the words Uttara, which means North and Ayana, which means movement. Thus Uttarayana means the Sun's northerly movement. Similarly Dakshinayana means the southerly movement of the Sun, in the geocentric model of the Solar system. These two movements occur due to precessional m,evement of tyhe Earth. (iii) Uttarayana as described by the Fifth Veda Now having defined the Fifth Veda, the Rashi and the Uttarayana let us see what the fifth Veda says about the Uttarayana. Vishnu purana (2.8.28 - 31) says that the Northerly movement of the Sun begins when the Sun is in the Makar rash. Then the Sun moves to Kumbha and Mina and after passing through these three signs it goes to the Vishuvati (the equator) and makes day and night equal. Thereafter the nights go on diminishing and days go on increasing. After the end of Mithuna ie. in the Karkata rashi the day is the longest and then the southerly movement begins. Vishnu purana (2.8.67 - 68) again says that the equinoxes occur in the middle of the Sharad and the Vasanta seasons, when the Sun enters the Tula and Mesha rashis respectively and the days and nights become equal. The southerly movement occurs when the Sun is in the Karkata and the Northerly moveement occurs when the sun is in the Makara rashi. Please note here that nowhere it says that the points are at the beginning of Makara and Karkata. In fact in Vedanga Jyotisha the points are in the Dhanishtha nakshatra in the Makar rashi ie towards the end of the Makar rashi. Bhagavat purana 5.21.4 - 6) uses the word "Vartate", which means toi stay. .It says that when the Sun is (or stays) in the Mesha and Tula the days and nights are equal and while passing through the five rashis from Vrishabha the days go on increasing and nights go on diminishing by one ghatika every month. When the Sun is passing through the five rashis from Vrischika there is viparyaya ie. ther is upset or the reverse occurs. In the Uttarayana the days increase and in the Dakshinayana the nights increase. Vishnu Dharmottara Purana (3.8.6- 8) also says the same thing. In Vishnu Dharmottara Purana (3.9.4 n- 5) the names of the seasonal months are given along with corresponding Sidereal months. You can very well notice that in the Vedanga jyotisha also the monh Tapa corresponded with the Siderael month of Magha. There is correspondence of the time periods in the puranas and the Vedanga Jyotisha as shown avove and this means they refer to what happened at the same period of time.. The critics of the Hindu Jyotisha want to say that the ancient Hindu astronomers did not know about precession and that the positions of the solstices and equinoxes given in the above puranas for a particular time has to remain the same for ever. It is simply the ignorance of these critics. Further for your information most of the Indian panchanga makers follow the Suryasiddhanta and Grahalaghava for their calculations and only for the absolute accuracy in the time (ie. for accuracy upto second) of the eclipses they take information from the Positional Astronomy Centre in Kolkata. Some ignorant critics unnecessarily mistakenly blame the honest Panchanga makers as taking all data from the modern astronomy centres and yet applying corrections there. Then some such critics blame about the different values of the ayanamasa corrections but have they quantified the effect of these variations of the ayanamashas? Hindu jyotishis have become theitr punching bags all the time,possibly at the behest of some foreign agencies In conclusion I wish to say that the Fifth Veda holds that the rashis are Nirayana or fixed and the Uttarayana referred to in the purana was true at the time it was incorporated in these puranas. Puranas by virtue of their five compulsory criteria had to update the history, which of course includes the astronomical informations at different times. Because of the changes due to the precession of the Earth the ancient astronomers recorded the solstices and the equinoxes occurring at different nakshatras at different times. Regards, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya http://windows.microsoft.com/shop Find the right PC for you. 1 of 1 File(s) A Brief Introduction to Vedic Astrology (Final).doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 5, 2009 Report Share Posted November 5, 2009 Dear Sunil Ji,I congratulate you to bring out the issues of debate very clearly.I have replied to Shri Harimalla ji as under:QuoteI have already replied to your mail earlier.Some persons say that some evidence is therein Puranas that Makar Sankranti was celebrated on the ingress of Sun in Tropical Capricorn.There are Four Vedas , Six Shastras , lot of Aranyak grantha and 42 puranas (including major and minor )'andthen vast litrature on astronomy and astrology (Samhita,Jatak, and Mahurta).Mahurta is the back bone of all astrologicalpractices in Indian Sub-continent, Mahurta depend on five limbsof Panchang"1. Day 2 Lunal Tithi 3 Nakshatra (27 -very well defined in all upnishads , and samhitas ) 4 Karan - half part of the tithi5 Yoga - formed by the addition of sidreal longitudes of Sun and MoonSidreal Makar sankranti is celebrated based on clear cut injuctions given in Mahurta granths.If some person wish to celebrate Makar Sankranti on ingress of Sun in Tropical Capricorn , who is objecting it.But the poeple of India are celebrating MAKAR SANKRANTI on the ingressof Sun in Sidreal CAPRICORN ,is in line of mahurta shastra.Who are these person's like Mr. kaul to object it. UNQUoTEMaharishi Parasara has precisely explained the concept of signs to his disciple Maitraye in chapter 3, slokas 4, 5 and 6 of BPHS: “Those, celestial bodies are called the planets (Grahas) that move through the Nakshatras (or asterisms) along the Zodiac (Bhachakra). The Zodiac comprises of 27 asterisms from Aswin to Revati and also devided in 12 equal parts known as signs (Rashis) from Aries to Pisces. The Zodiac sign which contains the rising (ascending) point at the time of Birth is called Lagna (ascendant)”. Based on the ascendant and the planets joining and separating from each other, the native’s good and bad fortune is deductedI may like to clarify one or two points raised in your mail:1. Panchang makers are collecting astronomical data from positional astronomical centers as this data is more precise and they apply it strait away to their software developed for this purpose.They are not compromising on principles. 2. No doubt Sage Vaysa divided the knowledge in the form of four Vedas but they are not available in complete form. Whatever of vedas are now available it is in its origional and uncurrupted form.3 In case of Puranas , there are many additions and delitions , some times this creates confusion.4. It is very important that what are the present practices. After all we are not living in static society. The social practices has to be vibrant and flexible.5. The critics completely ignorind Mahurta shastra- 27 NAKSHATRAS ARE THE BACK BONE OF MAHURTA. I am attaching one of my article in which these matters are examined in some detail (may be now needa some updating). RegardsG. K. Goel Dear friends,There is misunderstanding among some people regarding what is the meant by the fifth Dear friends, There is misunderstanding among some people regarding what is the meant by the fifth Veda and what does it say about the Uttarayana. L:et us see what these things are: 1) The Fifth Veda The Puranas have been called by the Chandogya Upanishad and the Brihadaranyak upanishad as the fifth Veda. Vayu Purana tells us that before Vedavyasa divided the Vedas and the upanishads all the Vedas and the Puranas were together as a single Veda. When Vedavyasa found that it wast became almost impossible for any single individual to master all that is encompassed in the Veda, he divided and rearranged the original single Veda into five parts ie. the four Vedas (Rig, Yajur, Sama and Atharva Veda) and the fifth Veda comprising all the Puranas together. The Mahabharata tells us that one must study the Puranas and Itihasas before reading the Vedas. Thus no one can afford to think the Puranas to be any lower than the Vedas. Again some uninformed people grudgingly say that the Bhagavad purana alone may be the fifth Veda. Nothing can be further from the truth. All the major puranas are important. However Padmapurana tells us that the Bhagavat purana is best among the Puranas. It is somehing like Lord Rama telling Hanuman that if anybody can read only one Upanishad that must-read will be the Mandukya Upanishad. That does not mean that one can ignore the other Upanishads. 2) Uttarayana Before we discuss Uttarayana it is necessary to define what is "Rashi", as that comes in the discussion on Uttarayn a and also difine the word "Uttarayan" also. (i) Definition of Rashi The rashi is defined in the Vamana purana as containg nine padas (quarters) of Nakshatras, ie, two and a quarter nakshatras. Thus the ecliptic of 27 nakshatras are divided into 27 parts for 27 nakshatras and the ecliptic is further divided int 12 parts each called as rashi. The rashi contains two ans a quarter of rashis in each of them. Vamana purana tells us which are the nakshatras in which rashi. As the nakshatras are fixed so are the rashis by definition. These fixed rashis are called Nirayana rashis using a later-day word "Nirayana" ( Nih+ ayana, where nih means no and ayana means movement, though ayana has other meanings too). There term was not used in the ancient times as there wqas no need for that because everybody knew that rashis are fixed. That is how this word Nirayana has entered the vocabulary. We the Hindus believe that all the words have been coined at one time or the other except AUM or OM. So no sensible person ever questions the use of the word Nirayana. Some unscrupulous people at some time in later-day history imagined the Rashis also to be moving according to the precessional movement. These people call these rashis to be moving and not fixed and called the imaginary moving rashis as Sayana rashis ie Rashis with movement. If this type of audacity would have taken place in Lord Rama's time he would have had these people killed summarily. (ii) Definition of Uttarayana .. Uttarayana comes from combination of the the words Uttara, which means North and Ayana, which means movement. Thus Uttarayana means the Sun's northerly movement. Similarly Dakshinayana means the southerly movement of the Sun, in the geocentric model of the Solar system. These two movements occur due to precessional m,evement of tyhe Earth. (iii) Uttarayana as described by the Fifth Veda Now having defined the Fifth Veda, the Rashi and the Uttarayana let us see what the fifth Veda says about the Uttarayana. Vishnu purana (2.8.28 - 31) says that the Northerly movement of the Sun begins when the Sun is in the Makar rash. Then the Sun moves to Kumbha and Mina and after passing through these three signs it goes to the Vishuvati (the equator) and makes day and night equal. Thereafter the nights go on diminishing and days go on increasing. After the end of Mithuna ie. in the Karkata rashi the day is the longest and then the southerly movement begins. Vishnu purana (2.8.67 - 68) again says that the equinoxes occur in the middle of the Sharad and the Vasanta seasons, when the Sun enters the Tula and Mesha rashis respectively and the days and nights become equal. The southerly movement occurs when the Sun is in the Karkata and the Northerly moveement occurs when the sun is in the Makara rashi. Please note here that nowhere it says that the points are at the beginning of Makara and Karkata. In fact in Vedanga Jyotisha the points are in the Dhanishtha nakshatra in the Makar rashi ie towards the end of the Makar rashi. Bhagavat purana 5.21.4 - 6) uses the word "Vartate", which means toi stay. .It says that when the Sun is (or stays) in the Mesha and Tula the days and nights are equal and while passing through the five rashis from Vrishabha the days go on increasing and nights go on diminishing by one ghatika every month. When the Sun is passing through the five rashis from Vrischika there is viparyaya ie. ther is upset or the reverse occurs. In the Uttarayana the days increase and in the Dakshinayana the nights increase. Vishnu Dharmottara Purana (3.8.6- 8) also says the same thing. In Vishnu Dharmottara Purana (3.9.4 n- 5) the names of the seasonal months are given along with corresponding Sidereal months. You can very well notice that in the Vedanga jyotisha also the monh Tapa corresponded with the Siderael month of Magha. There is correspondence of the time periods in the puranas and the Vedanga Jyotisha as shown avove and this means they refer to what happened at the same period of time.. The critics of the Hindu Jyotisha want to say that the ancient Hindu astronomers did not know about precession and that the positions of the solstices and equinoxes given in the above puranas for a particular time has to remain the same for ever. It is simply the ignorance of these critics. Further for your information most of the Indian panchanga makers follow the Suryasiddhanta and Grahalaghava for their calculations and only for the absolute accuracy in the time (ie. for accuracy upto second) of the eclipses they take information from the Positional Astronomy Centre in Kolkata. Some ignorant critics unnecessarily mistakenly blame the honest Panchanga makers as taking all data from the modern astronomy centres and yet applying corrections there. Then some such critics blame about the different values of the ayanamasa corrections but have they quantified the effect of these variations of the ayanamashas? Hindu jyotishis have become theitr punching bags all the time,possibly at the behest of some foreign agencies In conclusion I wish to say that the Fifth Veda holds that the rashis are Nirayana or fixed and the Uttarayana referred to in the purana was true at the time it was incorporated in these puranas. Puranas by virtue of their five compulsory criteria had to update the history, which of course includes the astronomical informations at different times. Because of the changes due to the precession of the Earth the ancient astronomers recorded the solstices and the equinoxes occurring at different nakshatras at different times. Regards, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya http://windows.microsoft.com/shop Find the right PC for you. New Windows 7: Find the right PC for you. Learn more. 1 of 1 File(s) A Brief Introduction to Vedic Astrology (Final).doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2009 Report Share Posted November 22, 2009 < Hellenistic Zociac. > For your kind information, Hellenistic world were not inventor of ecliptic and Zodiac, they only robbed things and put their tag on it, how, some points are as below :- First Point :- Some part of writing from one site :- ********************************************************************* There is written evidence that proves that the ancient world was familiar with the scientific principles necessary for depicting the celestial and terrestrial spheres, and the oldest known surviving ancient globe is the Farnese Atlas, now at the National Museum of Naples. The Farnese Atlas is a decorative celestial globe, about 25 inches in diameter, that shows the outline of constellations against a coordinate system. The statue of Atlas is dated 73 B.C.; the position of the constellation figures to the globe's equinox date the globe itself to around 370 B.C. (Naturally, the ancient globes and models were representative of the astronomical ideas held at that period of time.) Link of the same is below:- http://www.fi.edu/learn/sci-tech/celestial-globe/celestial-globe.php?cts=space Now point is from where Romans robbed it (Globe with Ecliptic line and constellation) and place it at their motherland. Actually they were very new to astronomy and so they did not know that for this theft they would be caught red handed. They were not knowing what is Equinox so they fix statue of Atlas and dated it to 73 B.C. and but Equinox was on that sphere was of 370 BCE. Now please ponder over when Hellenistic Dynasty got started it was after 30-40 years. Above link was only trailer about the theft by Greeks and Romans Now there are two points to ponder over after seeing that it is not of Hellenistic Empire, first point from where ppl got the constellations and second one about, how concept of ecliptic took birth. In Mul-Apin tablets there were already 13 constellations (in fact they had 18 constellations) near ecliptic in 1000 BCE and how those got transferred to them there is very long story of dynasties. In Mul-Apin tablets (tablets of Assyrians) there are names of Vedic Rishis like RISHI KASHYAP AND ATRI RISHI. Enuma Anu and Enilil star system (It was based on 3 loka system of VEDIC ppl) was invented by Assyrians and later those went to many civilization (Egyptian, Babylonain, Chaldian, Sumerians) because they ruled over there (Except Sumerians as they became friend of them I don't know why??). If Assyrians were having Enuma Anu and Enilil then from where they got those 18 constellations. In that region only Assyrians were having knowledge of Astronomy others were totally nill then from where constellations came?? Everybody thinks that oh yes it is from Greece or Rome, BUT IT IS TOTALLY INCORRECT. Answer is Elamite's civilization, who could be they?? They were ancient Harrapans and they left their land because their land collapsed due to drought and they migrated to other places, and some of them migrated to Persian Gulf (Some to Southern part of India, Some to Gujarat and some other places like near to Persia). Ancient Harappans, who were on Persian Gulf they were surrounded by 3 civilizations and So they invented new language(why new as they had Sanskrit but others were not aware of it) with the time called as Elamite-Dravidian and when their civilization started collapsing near Persian Gulf because of attacks from other dynasties they moved to their old mother land ie in Southern part of India and there have been no fight between Dravidians and already occupier of Southern Part ie Sanskrit speakers instead they also used to do marriage in each others family like Srilankan Sinhala- Vijayan(Sanskrit Speaker) also got married with Chola or Chera kings daughter. Both of them used to perform Aswamedha Yajna, not in the way of Barbarians that cut the Horses like Romila and Michael Witzel think. Assyrians got constellation from those Elamite-Dravidians slowly slowly:- Please visit to following pics of the link :- A) An ornate design on this limestone ritual vat from the Middle Elamite period depicts creatures with the heads of goats and the tails of fish. (Louvre.) B) Relief resembles a fish tailed woman holding snakes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elamite_Empire#Elamite_influence_on_the_Achaemenids Have you heard about the Ophichus and Capricornus constellation, those are the same as what i showed you. Those pics are of 2'nd or 3'rd Millenia BCE according to CHRISTIAN dating system. Let the Elamite site excavate ppl will get all constellations figures over there and might be also celestial globes which Romans and Greeks robbed from this land. Have you heard about kudurru word, give google search to it, see how many constellation already came in existence in 1600BCE and those were because of Ancient Harrapans, ie Elamitse or Future South Indians. Kundurru was a stone of which they used to worship and figures on it were like deities like we have NKS deities,and Assyrians have Enuma, Anu, Enlil and others(no other civilization on earth) were having no deities in Sky. But yes later they diffused to other places and ppl adopted those deities. In Mul-Apin tablet of 1000 BCE there were already 18 constellation and 13 near to ecliptic. In one tablet of Assyrians there are 12 parts of ecliptic and which became Babylonian circular star calendar before 700 BCE, in fact it was of Assyrians and name of the months is exactly same as the name of Rashis which took form of Zodiac and this calendar was Solar calendar. Assyrians calendar which started as Vedic Calendar ie Luni-Solar with seasons got derailed and it became Sidereal Solar calendar which Romans picked up and implemented it with VE point. Again theft by Greeks and Romans in near about 4'th century BCE. India is also facing same problem with calendar which Assrians faced in 1000-700 BCE ie of Sidereal. When Achaemenid Empire came to India then they took with them Surya Sidhanta. Maya always called himself as Maha-Ashura (means Assyrians , ancient Bhartiya) and also Mlechha (Mlechha were Ancient Harappans and that person was bond in VEDIC knowledge, he read all things about VEDA, even he never propagated Sidereal things in India.). Might eb it could have come earlier as Rajasthan and Gujarat, Kerala was connected by Sea Routes to Persian Gulf of Elamites. Mleccha became negative word later but original word was Melluha means Mallah who trade through sea. Might be Malayalam word would have also originated from Melluah word. Ashura was also not negative word in Ancient time. Ashura wanted to worship only 4 ancient Vedic Gods but we don't want as Indra is also lord of Rain and floods. So now I think you would have got idea that Hellenistic Empire is not inventor of Zodiac and constellations. Infact VEDAS are originator of all those system as they have clearly wrote about cardinal system with 12 seasonal months (Lunar Months), and it is most scientific calendar and all other systems like Enuma Anu Enlil, NKS and Elamite constellations came in existence with passage of time and ROMANS and GREEKS should stop harping with their old song, yes they destroyed many proofs so that nobody could trace and put their tag but truth is coming out in front of all slowly slowly. Vedic ppl gave seasonal thing (obvious from Assyrians and Vedic Texts), its descendant Assyrians, Indians and Elamite-Dravidian created problem for it. One cheers to all of them because it is not easy to come out from the things which they have developed. Regs, Prashant Pandey CC:- Koenraad Elst , " Krishen " <jyotirved wrote: > > > IndiaArchaeology , " Koenraad " <koenraad.elst@> > wrote: > > > > IndiaArchaeology , " Krishen " jyotirved@ wrote: > > > > Sheri Bhattacharjya has said, " The Puranas have been called by the > > Chandogya Upanishad and the Brihadaranyak upanishad as the fifth > > Veda. " and let us compare this statement with another statement of > > the same gentleman, " The Mahabharata tells us that one must study > > the Puranas and Itihasas before reading the Vedas. " > > > > One of the problems here is, again, the lack of a sense of historicity > among Hindus. Just now, on the Indo-Eurasian Research list, Steve Farmer > berates a colleague for juxtaposing Bible passages as if thety were all > contemporaneous, without any sense of time depth and editorial history > with its compilation of chronologically and otherwise disparate sources, > interpolation, hypercorrections etc., " like a medieval scholar " . In > these discussions, Purana enthusiasts likewise behave like medieval > scholars. > > Case in point: words have a history too, and the term " Purana " which now > means the well-known set of the 18 Puranas, did not have that canonical > meaning in the Upanishads yet. Purana, " antiquity " , is a fifth Veda in > the sense that history, as a generic concept, is a teacher, a repository > of knowledge, for everyone in every nation. The Puranas as a corpus are > much younger than the Vedas, Upanishads and even the MBh, and contain > totally un-Vedic elements quite unknown to Yajnavalkya abnd Uddalaka, > such as the Hellenistic Zociac. > > There are overlaps too, a lot with the epics whose long-drawn-out > editing was partly contemporaneous with that of the Puranas. Thus, the > supposed horoscope of Rama has " Hellenistic import " written all over it. > Conversely, some parts of the Puranas (meaning contents, not form) > strech back into and possibly beyond the Vedic age, e.g. it is > conceivable that the genealogies involving Manu, Nahusha, Yayati, said > to predate the first Rishis and Vedic kings such as Bharata, may indeed > contain archaic material. On the other hand, plenty of Puranic stories > about Vedic characters lok like having been composed later and involving > clearly post-Vedic concerns, e.g. the caste concerns of Vishvamitra > trying to convert from a Rajarhsi to a Brahmarshi. But in principle, > they should contain elements of an archaic tradition of historical and > genealogical data. That tradition has always existed and informed the > Vedic rishis themselves. It is in that generic sense that " Purana " could > be a source of wisdom for Vasishtha, Dirghatamas, Yajnavalkya and the > other pre-Puranic seers. > > > > > And the Vedas, including the Yajurveda, are > > supposed to be the works created/revealed by the Supreme much before > > Treta yuga, which is supposed to have been reigning millions of years > > back as per the Surya Sidhanta!< > > This is a truly sorry symptom of a total lack of a sense of historicity, > both yours and that of the Siddhanta authors: to treat the astronomical > subject-matter on a par with mythical concepts like these " yuga-s " . In > the Vedanga Jyotisha, " yuga " is an astronomical concept, viz. a cycle of > five years. Even its original Puranic meaning of periods of 1,080 years > and its multiples may well have an astronomical basis, viz. that 1 + 2 + > 3 + 4 + 4 + 3 + 2 + 1 times this unit amounts to 21,600 years, a very > rough approximation of the precession cycle of ca. 25,700 years (a cycle > that was indeed underestimated somewhat in the Siddhanta-s, as implied > in its slight overestimation of the precession rate). That is the > explanation given a century ago by Sri Yuktesvar in his The Holy > Science, a thesis I used to dismiss but that now seems to have a kernel > of truth: the introduction of the knowledge of the precession > (established by Hipparchos 2nd BC, though actually implied but not > understood in Chandogya in Maitri Up 1:4 which notes the deviation of > the visible pole star from its scripturally recorded position) ca. 1st > CE coincides with the emergence of a yuga concept of cosmic duration. > But then the jump from a cycle in the range of the precession cycle to > cycles of millions of years, unrelated to any then-observable > astro-cycle is typical of the extreme, exalted and fanciful mindset > underlying the Puranic corpus. > > Hindus of the Puranic age decided that walking upright like the Vedic > Rishis was impious so they opted for a crawling and creeping lifestyle, > ever minimizing themselves and exalting the gods. (Or likewise the > Gurus: the oft-used prayer " Gurur Brahma, gurur Vishnu ... " exalts the > meritorious guru way beyond all proportion in a fit of pious Puranic > exaggeration.) So they replaced the manageable and realistic yuga > concept involving millennia by an unwieldy and unrealistic yuga concept > involving millions of years, based on the replacement of years in the > yuga definition by " years of Brahma " , taking a day of Brahma to be equal > to a human year. And other multiplicaptions, all meant to make man > smaller and the gods greater. Nothing against self-effacement before the > gods, but one should not drag robust concepts of physics/astronomy along > into the abyss of magnitudinal extremism. > > This Puranic extremism leads to utterly silly problems, such as putting > the Vedas, which predated the Avesta and the Mitanni texsts only > slightly, in a Satya Yuga dated millions of years ago. Not to ention the > utterly non-Vedic claim that the Vedas were " created/revealed by the > Supreme " . Only Puranic authors who had lost touch with the Vedic > inspiration could think up this exalted fairy-tale. The Vedic seers who > had combined inspiration and perspiration in the composition of their > hymns knew very well who the real author of these hymns was. > > > > > On the other hand, the Puranas and the > > Mahabharata are works of much later dates---almost at the fag end of > > Dwapara Yuga, and the start of Kaliyuga, which is supposed to have > > started in 3102 BCE as per the same Surya Sidhanta that some people > > worship even today! > > > > It gives rise to a question like the eternal vexatious one, " Did the > > egg come first or the hen " ? If the Vedas existed much before the > > start of the Kaliyuga, how could they have eulogized the Puranas?< > > See above for the evolving meaning of " Purana " . > > Kind regards, > > KE > > --- End forwarded message --- > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2009 Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 Shri Prashant Pandeyji, Jai Shri Ram! I suggest you join Indiaarchaeology forum, if you are not a member of that forum already and have a thorough discussion on such topics with the members of that forum, including Dr. Koenraad Elst. All I can do otherwise is just forward this post of yours to that forum, but I am not sure the moderator will approve it since it will entail a lot of to-ing and fro-ing of posts, most of which will not carry the same weight as your direct posts will. Jai Shri Ram! A K Kaul , " prashant " <praspandey wrote: > > Dear Mr Koenraad, > > < Thus, the supposed horoscope of Rama has " Hellenistic import " written all over it > > > Your statement doesn't hold water. > > British Museum has some fragments which they got from Assyrians region and some fragments consist of information of RASHIS, ZODIAC, and DEGREES to locate the star. Some fragments numbers are as below:- > > CT-33-11 ; SM-162 ; 81-07-27 ; HS-245 ; CT-33-12 ; 83-1-18 > > CHRISTIANS dating system of archaeologist says that those fragments would be of 1200 BCE means all constellations were already invented and we used for Rashis. > > I am taking help of that archaeological evidence of Assyrians region as Surya-Sidhanta can not be of BCE's works as claimed by some ppl, but I know it is. > > According to those clay tablets they also used gnomon and calculated stars in degrees ( as according to text which have been found from the site of Assyrians) and those clay tablets clearly show lines of ecliptic and some other lines. We were not using clay tablets for writing so Surya Sidhanta can not be of second millennia BCE work as we can not estimate date by Carbon Dating system of Surya Sidhanta, it is really fantastic logic. > > Purans adopted Rashis (As Purans would have edited later) why other texts didn't accept Rashis. Because those predate Harappan time and we think they can not be old works as CHRIASTIANS can easily say no no those can not be millennia BCE works. > > Elamite-Dravidian (Migrated from Harrapa) gave birth to constellation and than Rashis came in picture. Assyrians + Dravidian used that for Enuma Anu Enlil and DEVA worshipper + Dravidian used that for NKS. > > ( Elamite-Dravidians were also Deva Worshpper but I am using them as third party just to write things clealrly, Elamite-Dravidians invented new language ie Dravidian as they were surrounded by 3 civilizations who were having 3 difft language ) > > Elamite-Dravidians, they were also near to Sapta Sindu Part after MBH time and they were also near to Dwarka, Rajasthan, Gujarat and connected to Kerala and Srilanka. > > We have found constellation in Harrapan seals (though those are disputed) > Than how Indians imported Hellenistic Zodiac of constellations because we can not carbon dated Surya Sidhanta but I have shown some thing which are already Carbon Dated?? > > Its ok that Ramayan would be edited later like Puranas were edited and we would have done some mistakes in making horoscope, it doesn't mean we imported method to make horoscope and it is totally wrong to say we imported from Hellenistic world, Zodiac was indigenous work of Ancient Indians. > > Why SS can not be of second millennia works because some Non-Sense have no knowledge of History and they read Books of some illiterate Historians. They should see Clay tablets of Assyrians region from British Museum and should stop saying that Hellenistic world invented Zodiac and lines of ecliptic. > > Oonhonay paki pakai kichadi per haanth mara hai doston…. > > Regs, > Prashant Pandey > > CC :- Koenraad Elst > > > , " prashant " praspandey@ wrote: > > > > < Hellenistic Zociac. > > > > > For your kind information, Hellenistic world were not inventor of ecliptic and Zodiac, they only robbed things and put their tag on it, how, some points are as below :- > > > > First Point :- > > > > Some part of writing from one site :- > > > > ********************************************************************* > > There is written evidence that proves that the ancient world was familiar with the scientific principles necessary for depicting the celestial and terrestrial spheres, and the oldest known surviving ancient globe is the Farnese Atlas, now at the National Museum of Naples. The Farnese Atlas is a decorative celestial globe, about 25 inches in diameter, that shows the outline of constellations against a coordinate system. The statue of Atlas is dated 73 B.C.; the position of the constellation figures to the globe's equinox date the globe itself to around 370 B.C. (Naturally, the ancient globes and models were representative of the astronomical ideas held at that period of time.) > > > > > > Link of the same is below:- > > > > http://www.fi.edu/learn/sci-tech/celestial-globe/celestial-globe.php?cts\ =space > > > > Now point is from where Romans robbed it (Globe with Ecliptic line and constellation) and place it at their motherland. Actually they were very new to astronomy and so they did not know that for this theft they would be caught red handed. > > > > They were not knowing what is Equinox so they fix statue of Atlas and dated it to 73 B.C. and but Equinox was on that sphere was of 370 BCE. Now please ponder over when Hellenistic Dynasty got started it was after 30-40 years. > > > > Above link was only trailer about the theft by Greeks and Romans > > > > Now there are two points to ponder over after seeing that it is not of Hellenistic Empire, first point from where ppl got the constellations and second one about, how concept of ecliptic took birth. > > > > In Mul-Apin tablets there were already 13 constellations (in fact they had 18 constellations) near ecliptic in 1000 BCE and how those got transferred to them there is very long story of dynasties. > > > > In Mul-Apin tablets (tablets of Assyrians) there are names of Vedic Rishis like RISHI KASHYAP AND ATRI RISHI. > > > > Enuma Anu and Enilil star system (It was based on 3 loka system of VEDIC ppl) was invented by Assyrians and later those went to many civilization (Egyptian, Babylonain, Chaldian, Sumerians) because they ruled over there (Except Sumerians as they became friend of them I don't know why??). > > > > If Assyrians were having Enuma Anu and Enilil then from where they got those 18 constellations. In that region only Assyrians were having knowledge of Astronomy others were totally nill then from where constellations came?? Everybody thinks that oh yes it is from Greece or Rome, BUT IT IS TOTALLY INCORRECT. > > > > Answer is Elamite's civilization, who could be they?? > > > > They were ancient Harrapans and they left their land because their land collapsed due to drought and they migrated to other places, and some of them migrated to Persian Gulf (Some to Southern part of India, Some to Gujarat and some other places like near to Persia). > > > > Ancient Harappans, who were on Persian Gulf they were surrounded by 3 civilizations and So they invented new language(why new as they had Sanskrit but others were not aware of it) with the time called as Elamite-Dravidian and when their civilization started collapsing near Persian Gulf because of attacks from other dynasties they moved to their old mother land ie in Southern part of India and there have been no fight between Dravidians and already occupier of Southern Part ie Sanskrit speakers instead they also used to do marriage in each others family like Srilankan Sinhala- Vijayan(Sanskrit Speaker) also got married with Chola or Chera kings daughter. Both of them used to perform Aswamedha Yajna, not in the way of Barbarians that cut the Horses like Romila and Michael Witzel think. > > > > Assyrians got constellation from those Elamite-Dravidians slowly slowly:- > > > > Please visit to following pics of the link :- > > > > A) An ornate design on this limestone ritual vat from the Middle Elamite period depicts creatures with the heads of goats and the tails of fish. (Louvre.) > > > > B) Relief resembles a fish tailed woman holding snakes > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elamite_Empire#Elamite_influence_on_the_Ach\ aemenids > > > > Have you heard about the Ophichus and Capricornus constellation, those are the same as what i showed you. Those pics are of 2'nd or 3'rd Millenia BCE according to CHRISTIAN dating system. > > > > Let the Elamite site excavate ppl will get all constellations figures over there and might be also celestial globes which Romans and Greeks robbed from this land. > > > > Have you heard about kudurru word, give google search to it, see how many constellation already came in existence in 1600BCE and those were because of Ancient Harrapans, ie Elamitse or Future South Indians. > > > > Kundurru was a stone of which they used to worship and figures on it were like deities like we have NKS deities,and Assyrians have Enuma, Anu, Enlil and others(no other civilization on earth) were having no deities in Sky. But yes later they diffused to other places and ppl adopted those deities. > > > > In Mul-Apin tablet of 1000 BCE there were already 18 constellation and 13 near to ecliptic. > > > > In one tablet of Assyrians there are 12 parts of ecliptic and which became Babylonian circular star calendar before 700 BCE, in fact it was of Assyrians and name of the months is exactly same as the name of Rashis which took form of Zodiac and this calendar was Solar calendar. Assyrians calendar which started as Vedic Calendar ie Luni-Solar with seasons got derailed and it became Sidereal Solar calendar which Romans picked up and implemented it with VE point. Again theft by Greeks and Romans in near about 4'th century BCE. > > > > India is also facing same problem with calendar which Assrians faced in 1000-700 BCE ie of Sidereal. > > > > When Achaemenid Empire came to India then they took with them Surya Sidhanta. Maya always called himself as Maha-Ashura (means Assyrians , ancient Bhartiya) and also Mlechha (Mlechha were Ancient Harappans and that person was bond in VEDIC knowledge, he read all things about VEDA, even he never propagated Sidereal things in India.). Might eb it could have come earlier as Rajasthan and Gujarat, Kerala was connected by Sea Routes to Persian Gulf of Elamites. > > > > Mleccha became negative word later but original word was Melluha means Mallah who trade through sea. Might be Malayalam word would have also originated from Melluah word. > > > > Ashura was also not negative word in Ancient time. Ashura wanted to worship only 4 ancient Vedic Gods but we don't want as Indra is also lord of Rain and floods. > > > > So now I think you would have got idea that Hellenistic Empire is not inventor of Zodiac and constellations. > > > > Infact VEDAS are originator of all those system as they have clearly wrote about cardinal system with 12 seasonal months (Lunar Months), and it is most scientific calendar and all other systems like Enuma Anu Enlil, NKS and Elamite constellations came in existence with passage of time and ROMANS and GREEKS should stop harping with their old song, yes they destroyed many proofs so that nobody could trace and put their tag but truth is coming out in front of all slowly slowly. > > > > Vedic ppl gave seasonal thing (obvious from Assyrians and Vedic Texts), its descendant Assyrians, Indians and Elamite-Dravidian created problem for it. > > > > One cheers to all of them because it is not easy to come out from the things which they have developed. > > > > Regs, > > Prashant Pandey > > > > CC:- Koenraad Elst > > > > , " Krishen " <jyotirved@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > IndiaArchaeology , " Koenraad " <koenraad.elst@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > IndiaArchaeology , " Krishen " jyotirved@ wrote: > > > > > > > > Sheri Bhattacharjya has said, " The Puranas have been called by the > > > > Chandogya Upanishad and the Brihadaranyak upanishad as the fifth > > > > Veda. " and let us compare this statement with another statement of > > > > the same gentleman, " The Mahabharata tells us that one must study > > > > the Puranas and Itihasas before reading the Vedas. " > > > > > > > > > > One of the problems here is, again, the lack of a sense of historicity > > > among Hindus. Just now, on the Indo-Eurasian Research list, Steve Farmer > > > berates a colleague for juxtaposing Bible passages as if thety were all > > > contemporaneous, without any sense of time depth and editorial history > > > with its compilation of chronologically and otherwise disparate sources, > > > interpolation, hypercorrections etc., " like a medieval scholar " . In > > > these discussions, Purana enthusiasts likewise behave like medieval > > > scholars. > > > > > > Case in point: words have a history too, and the term " Purana " which now > > > means the well-known set of the 18 Puranas, did not have that canonical > > > meaning in the Upanishads yet. Purana, " antiquity " , is a fifth Veda in > > > the sense that history, as a generic concept, is a teacher, a repository > > > of knowledge, for everyone in every nation. The Puranas as a corpus are > > > much younger than the Vedas, Upanishads and even the MBh, and contain > > > totally un-Vedic elements quite unknown to Yajnavalkya abnd Uddalaka, > > > such as the Hellenistic Zociac. > > > > > > There are overlaps too, a lot with the epics whose long-drawn-out > > > editing was partly contemporaneous with that of the Puranas. Thus, the > > > supposed horoscope of Rama has " Hellenistic import " written all over it. > > > Conversely, some parts of the Puranas (meaning contents, not form) > > > strech back into and possibly beyond the Vedic age, e.g. it is > > > conceivable that the genealogies involving Manu, Nahusha, Yayati, said > > > to predate the first Rishis and Vedic kings such as Bharata, may indeed > > > contain archaic material. On the other hand, plenty of Puranic stories > > > about Vedic characters lok like having been composed later and involving > > > clearly post-Vedic concerns, e.g. the caste concerns of Vishvamitra > > > trying to convert from a Rajarhsi to a Brahmarshi. But in principle, > > > they should contain elements of an archaic tradition of historical and > > > genealogical data. That tradition has always existed and informed the > > > Vedic rishis themselves. It is in that generic sense that " Purana " could > > > be a source of wisdom for Vasishtha, Dirghatamas, Yajnavalkya and the > > > other pre-Puranic seers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > And the Vedas, including the Yajurveda, are > > > > supposed to be the works created/revealed by the Supreme much before > > > > Treta yuga, which is supposed to have been reigning millions of years > > > > back as per the Surya Sidhanta!< > > > > > > This is a truly sorry symptom of a total lack of a sense of historicity, > > > both yours and that of the Siddhanta authors: to treat the astronomical > > > subject-matter on a par with mythical concepts like these " yuga-s " . In > > > the Vedanga Jyotisha, " yuga " is an astronomical concept, viz. a cycle of > > > five years. Even its original Puranic meaning of periods of 1,080 years > > > and its multiples may well have an astronomical basis, viz. that 1 + 2 + > > > 3 + 4 + 4 + 3 + 2 + 1 times this unit amounts to 21,600 years, a very > > > rough approximation of the precession cycle of ca. 25,700 years (a cycle > > > that was indeed underestimated somewhat in the Siddhanta-s, as implied > > > in its slight overestimation of the precession rate). That is the > > > explanation given a century ago by Sri Yuktesvar in his The Holy > > > Science, a thesis I used to dismiss but that now seems to have a kernel > > > of truth: the introduction of the knowledge of the precession > > > (established by Hipparchos 2nd BC, though actually implied but not > > > understood in Chandogya in Maitri Up 1:4 which notes the deviation of > > > the visible pole star from its scripturally recorded position) ca. 1st > > > CE coincides with the emergence of a yuga concept of cosmic duration. > > > But then the jump from a cycle in the range of the precession cycle to > > > cycles of millions of years, unrelated to any then-observable > > > astro-cycle is typical of the extreme, exalted and fanciful mindset > > > underlying the Puranic corpus. > > > > > > Hindus of the Puranic age decided that walking upright like the Vedic > > > Rishis was impious so they opted for a crawling and creeping lifestyle, > > > ever minimizing themselves and exalting the gods. (Or likewise the > > > Gurus: the oft-used prayer " Gurur Brahma, gurur Vishnu ... " exalts the > > > meritorious guru way beyond all proportion in a fit of pious Puranic > > > exaggeration.) So they replaced the manageable and realistic yuga > > > concept involving millennia by an unwieldy and unrealistic yuga concept > > > involving millions of years, based on the replacement of years in the > > > yuga definition by " years of Brahma " , taking a day of Brahma to be equal > > > to a human year. And other multiplicaptions, all meant to make man > > > smaller and the gods greater. Nothing against self-effacement before the > > > gods, but one should not drag robust concepts of physics/astronomy along > > > into the abyss of magnitudinal extremism. > > > > > > This Puranic extremism leads to utterly silly problems, such as putting > > > the Vedas, which predated the Avesta and the Mitanni texsts only > > > slightly, in a Satya Yuga dated millions of years ago. Not to ention the > > > utterly non-Vedic claim that the Vedas were " created/revealed by the > > > Supreme " . Only Puranic authors who had lost touch with the Vedic > > > inspiration could think up this exalted fairy-tale. The Vedic seers who > > > had combined inspiration and perspiration in the composition of their > > > hymns knew very well who the real author of these hymns was. > > > > > > > > > > > > > On the other hand, the Puranas and the > > > > Mahabharata are works of much later dates---almost at the fag end of > > > > Dwapara Yuga, and the start of Kaliyuga, which is supposed to have > > > > started in 3102 BCE as per the same Surya Sidhanta that some people > > > > worship even today! > > > > > > > > It gives rise to a question like the eternal vexatious one, " Did the > > > > egg come first or the hen " ? If the Vedas existed much before the > > > > start of the Kaliyuga, how could they have eulogized the Puranas?< > > > > > > See above for the evolving meaning of " Purana " . > > > > > > Kind regards, > > > > > > KE > > > > > > --- End forwarded message --- > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 IndiaArchaeology , " subrahmanyas2000 " <subrahmanyas wrote: IndiaArchaeology , " Koenraad " koenraad.elst@ wrote: > The Puranas as a corpus are much younger than the Vedas, Upanishads > and even the MBh, and contain totally un-Vedic elements quite unknown > to Yajnavalkya abnd Uddalaka, such as the Hellenistic Zociac. > Not necessary at all. Its a jump to conclusions. Some of the information in the Puranas can be even older. After all the Rigveda was not meant to be a 'historical document' wheras the intention of the puranas are specifically about a previous age. For eg: In the Germania, Tacitus states that the germanic tribes have descended from Mannus,son of Tuisto. The sixth manu Manu Chakshusha is the son of Tvashta. That the Puranic texts do contain lot of later interpolations but if there is information in there that independently substantiates or corroborates vedic texts (or others as in the example above) it should be considered as strong textual evidence. regards, subrahmanya --- End forwarded message --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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