Fwd: niradhar Sayana versus Niradhar nirayana zodiac/rashis!

[Guest guest]

Dear friends,

 

////   No. There is no mention of weekdays not only in the Vedas but neither

in the Vedanga Jyotisha nor itihasa. They are all imports from some other

country, probably around 500 BCE. That makes Atharvajyotisha also a work of post

500 BCE.  /////

 

This is a wicked statement. What proof is there that Atharva jyotisha is post

500 BCE work. Atharva Jyotisha?

 

Regards,

 

Sunil K. Bhattacharjya

 

 

 

--- On Mon, 11/9/09, Krishen <jyotirved wrote:

 

Krishen <jyotirved

Fwd: Re: niradhar Sayana versus Niradhar nirayana

zodiac/rashis!

 

Monday, November 9, 2009, 1:44 AM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

HinduCalendar, " Krishen " <jyotirved@. ..> wrote:

 

 

 

Shri Narayan Iyerji,

 

 

 

Jai Shri Ram!

 

 

 

Welcome to Hinducalendar forum and many thanks for your response.

 

 

 

< 1. Are there any week-days, like bhanu-vasara, indu-vasara etc.

 

mentioned in the vedas? If not vedas, what is their origin?>

 

 

 

No. There is no mention of weekdays not only in the Vedas but neither

 

in the Vedanga Jyotisha nor itihasa. They are all imports from some

 

other country, probably around 500 BCE. That makes Atharvajyotisha also

 

a work of post 500 BCE.

 

 

 

<2. Do all portion of vedas speak about 6 ritus unequivocally? I

 

remember having read in some portion of brahmanas/aranyaka mention of

 

only 5 ritus, and if I recall correctly Shishira and Hemanta ritus were

 

clubbed together.>

 

 

 

You are absolutely right. Some Vedic mantras club two ritus together,

 

and probably it is Shishira and Hemanta. It could be because in certain

 

parts of India Shishira is not as cold as in Northern regions, and as

 

such, not much different from Hemanta. It is only a guess work and not

 

a firm view. So do not impale me for the same!

 

 

 

<3. What would we be missing if only solar return is considered for

 

celebrating festivals instead of the existing soli-lunar or luni-solar

 

calendars and their contradiction and reconciliation. >

 

 

 

That is exactly what Gregorian calendar is doing---celebrating birthdays

 

as per " solar returns " ! These are two extremes---one is the solar

 

calendar to the exclusion of synodic months and that is Gregorian! The

 

other is pure synodic months, to the exclusion of solar months. That is

 

Hegira/Islamic calendar! The Vedic calendar is unique since it combines

 

both the lunar as well as solar phenomena--- vis-a-vis seasons!

 

 

 

You must be aware that in India we never celebrate any Jayanti purely on

 

solar basis! Rama Navmi is a festival celebrated on Shukla Paksha navmi

 

in Chaitra. But that lunar Chaitra has to be pegged to the solar month

 

Madhu. Janmashtami is celebrated on Shravana/Bhadra Krishna ashtami at

 

midnight. But that Shrvana has to be pegged to solar Nabhas. Similarly,

 

there is Vamana Jayanti, Nrisimha Chaturdshi etc. etc. All on the

 

basis of lunar tithis, but pegged to seasonal solar months.

 

 

 

Equal importance is give to the four cardinal points. Some of the

 

puranas say that by taking a bath during the ayana/vishuva sankrantis,

 

one attains the punya of hundreds of Ashvamedha yajnyas. Those

 

veryAyana sankrantis were known as Makara (Uttarayana) , Karkata

 

(Dakshinayana) , Vasant Sampat (Mesha) and Sharat Sampat (Tula Sankranti)

 

as per those very puranas. Since phalita-jyotishis delinked their

 

sankrantis from the Pauranic ones on the behest of Ganesha Daivajnya

 

etc. after about sixteenth century, a dichotomy of sayana versus

 

nirayana got created unnecessarily and the hindu community is reeling

 

under the same, the worst casuality being the Hindu festivals.

 

 

 

<4. You seem to have adopted a harsh language in respect of imaginery

 

Ram, bull, zodiac etc. What if they are imaginery? Aren't the

 

international dateline, equator, the lines that divide the earth to form

 

tropic of cancer, tropic of capricorn, etc. imaginery? Although the

 

international date line is imaginery, the date is very real, as also

 

though the lattitudanal etc. divisions are imaginery, the existence of

 

tropical forests like savannah and tundra regions are real, isn " t it?

 

So, why one set of imaginations/ assumptions is okay and the other not?>

 

 

 

The problem of Rams and Bulls arises when they get into direct conflict

 

witht the Vedic calendar! As on date, as you must be aware by now, we

 

are not celebrating our festivals as per the Vedic lore since they are

 

based on Madhu, Madhava etc. months and have nothing to do with Mesha,

 

Vrisha etc. rashis, whether Sayana or nirayana. We are not celebrating

 

our festivals as per the Puranas or even sidhantas either, not even

 

geographical phenomena, since they are all so called Sayana! We are

 

celebrating all the festivals only as per the whims and fancies of

 

Lahiriwalas and Ramanawas and Muladharawalas etc. etc. since it is

 

those very " walas " who decide our calendar and they decide it in a very

 

wrong manner because they base it all on imaginary Rams and Bulls!

 

 

 

International date line is imaginary, but we never celebrate our

 

festivals on that basis but on the basis of sunrise/sunset since the day

 

in India ranges from one sunrise to another. Simiarly some festivals

 

depend on moonrise/moonset like Karuva Chauth etc.

 

Vedic calendar is least bothered as to what name you give to

 

Dakshinayana or Uttarayana-- whetehr you call it Tropic of Cancer or

 

Caner of the Tropic! What it is bothered about is that the Uttarayana

 

has to be the shortest day of the year and Dakshinayana the longest day

 

of the year and days have to be equal to nights on the days of

 

Vishuvas---- --this has been clarified in theVedanga Jyotisham in no

 

uncertain terms.

 

 

 

As such, imaginary animals maybe alright for making correct predictions,

 

but those animals have to be eliminated mercilessly from the gamut of

 

Vedic calenars as they are making all the festivals spin on their heads.

 

That is why I request all the jyotishis that they may select watever

 

ayanamsha or zodiac (type of animals!) etc. etc. they want for making

 

correct predictions, but they must leave the Vedic calendar alone!

 

 

 

<5. I am on your side as far as phalita jyotish is concerned, with its

 

ability to predict correct results from the wrong set of data!>

 

 

 

Many thanks for your good wishes. In fact, I appreciate the contrarian

 

views as much as my own views since it gives me an opportunity to clear

 

my own doubts, if any, in a better manner, to myself, becaue unless I

 

convince myself first that I am on the rigth track, I will never be able

 

to clarify it to others.

 

 

 

As the saying goes, satyam eva jayate naanritam.

 

 

 

Jai Shri Ram

 

 

 

HinduCalendar, narayan iyer z1e1b1r1a@

 

wrote:

 

>

 

 

 

> Namaste Sri AKKji,

 

>

 

> On the current discussion, I would like to know the following:

 

>

 

> 1. Are there any week-days, like bhanu-vasara, indu-vasara etc.

 

mentioned in the vedas? If not vedas, what is their origin?

 

>

 

> 2. Do all portion of vedas speak about 6 ritus unequivocally? I

 

remember having read in some portion of brahmanas/aranyaka mention of

 

only 5 ritus, and if I recall correctly Shishira and Hemanta ritus were

 

clubbed together.

 

>

 

> 3. What would we be missing if only solar return is considered for

 

celebrating festivals instead of the existing soli-lunar or luni-solar

 

calendars and their contradiction and reconciliation.

 

>

 

> 4. You seem to have adopted a harsh language in respect of imaginery

 

Ram, bull, zodiac etc. What if they are imaginery? Aren't the

 

international dateline, equator, the lines that divide the earth to form

 

tropic of cancer, tropic of capricorn, etc. imaginery? Although the

 

international date line is imaginery, the date is very real, as also

 

though the lattitudanal etc. divisions are imaginery, the existence of

 

tropical forests like savannah and tundra regions are real, isn " t it?

 

So, why one set of imaginations/ assumptions is okay and the other not?

 

>

 

> 5. I am on your side as far as phalita jyotish is concerned, with its

 

ability to predict correct results from the wrong set of data!!!

 

>

 

> Regards,

 

>

 

> narayan

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> --- On Sat, 11/7/09, Krishen jyotirved@ wrote:

 

>

 

 

 

--- End forwarded message ---

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear friends,//// No. There is no mention of weekdays not only in the Vedas but neither in the Vedanga Jyotisha nor itihasa. They are all imports from some other country, probably around 500 BCE. That makes Atharvajyotisha also a work of post 500 BCE. /////This is a wicked statement. What proof is there that Atharva jyotisha is post 500 BCE work. Atharva Jyotisha?Regards,Sunil K. Bhattacharjya--- On Mon, 11/9/09, Krishen <jyotirved wrote:Krishen <jyotirved Fwd: Re: niradhar Sayana versus Niradhar nirayana zodiac/rashis!To:

Date: Monday, November 9, 2009, 1:44 AM

 

 

 

 

HinduCalendar, "Krishen" <jyotirved@. ..> wrote:

 

Shri Narayan Iyerji,

 

Jai Shri Ram!

 

Welcome to Hinducalendar forum and many thanks for your response.

 

< 1. Are there any week-days, like bhanu-vasara, indu-vasara etc.

mentioned in the vedas? If not vedas, what is their origin?>

 

No. There is no mention of weekdays not only in the Vedas but neither

in the Vedanga Jyotisha nor itihasa. They are all imports from some

other country, probably around 500 BCE. That makes Atharvajyotisha also

a work of post 500 BCE.

 

<2. Do all portion of vedas speak about 6 ritus unequivocally? I

remember having read in some portion of brahmanas/aranyaka mention of

only 5 ritus, and if I recall correctly Shishira and Hemanta ritus were

clubbed together.>

 

You are absolutely right. Some Vedic mantras club two ritus together,

and probably it is Shishira and Hemanta. It could be because in certain

parts of India Shishira is not as cold as in Northern regions, and as

such, not much different from Hemanta. It is only a guess work and not

a firm view. So do not impale me for the same!

 

<3. What would we be missing if only solar return is considered for

celebrating festivals instead of the existing soli-lunar or luni-solar

calendars and their contradiction and reconciliation. >

 

That is exactly what Gregorian calendar is doing---celebrating birthdays

as per "solar returns"! These are two extremes---one is the solar

calendar to the exclusion of synodic months and that is Gregorian! The

other is pure synodic months, to the exclusion of solar months. That is

Hegira/Islamic calendar! The Vedic calendar is unique since it combines

both the lunar as well as solar phenomena--- vis-a-vis seasons!

 

You must be aware that in India we never celebrate any Jayanti purely on

solar basis! Rama Navmi is a festival celebrated on Shukla Paksha navmi

in Chaitra. But that lunar Chaitra has to be pegged to the solar month

Madhu. Janmashtami is celebrated on Shravana/Bhadra Krishna ashtami at

midnight. But that Shrvana has to be pegged to solar Nabhas. Similarly,

there is Vamana Jayanti, Nrisimha Chaturdshi etc. etc. All on the

basis of lunar tithis, but pegged to seasonal solar months.

 

Equal importance is give to the four cardinal points. Some of the

puranas say that by taking a bath during the ayana/vishuva sankrantis,

one attains the punya of hundreds of Ashvamedha yajnyas. Those

veryAyana sankrantis were known as Makara (Uttarayana) , Karkata

(Dakshinayana) , Vasant Sampat (Mesha) and Sharat Sampat (Tula Sankranti)

as per those very puranas. Since phalita-jyotishis delinked their

sankrantis from the Pauranic ones on the behest of Ganesha Daivajnya

etc. after about sixteenth century, a dichotomy of sayana versus

nirayana got created unnecessarily and the hindu community is reeling

under the same, the worst casuality being the Hindu festivals.

 

<4. You seem to have adopted a harsh language in respect of imaginery

Ram, bull, zodiac etc. What if they are imaginery? Aren't the

international dateline, equator, the lines that divide the earth to form

tropic of cancer, tropic of capricorn, etc. imaginery? Although the

international date line is imaginery, the date is very real, as also

though the lattitudanal etc. divisions are imaginery, the existence of

tropical forests like savannah and tundra regions are real, isn"t it?

So, why one set of imaginations/ assumptions is okay and the other not?>

 

The problem of Rams and Bulls arises when they get into direct conflict

witht the Vedic calendar! As on date, as you must be aware by now, we

are not celebrating our festivals as per the Vedic lore since they are

based on Madhu, Madhava etc. months and have nothing to do with Mesha,

Vrisha etc. rashis, whether Sayana or nirayana. We are not celebrating

our festivals as per the Puranas or even sidhantas either, not even

geographical phenomena, since they are all so called Sayana! We are

celebrating all the festivals only as per the whims and fancies of

Lahiriwalas and Ramanawas and Muladharawalas etc. etc. since it is

those very "walas" who decide our calendar and they decide it in a very

wrong manner because they base it all on imaginary Rams and Bulls!

 

International date line is imaginary, but we never celebrate our

festivals on that basis but on the basis of sunrise/sunset since the day

in India ranges from one sunrise to another. Simiarly some festivals

depend on moonrise/moonset like Karuva Chauth etc.

Vedic calendar is least bothered as to what name you give to

Dakshinayana or Uttarayana-- whetehr you call it Tropic of Cancer or

Caner of the Tropic! What it is bothered about is that the Uttarayana

has to be the shortest day of the year and Dakshinayana the longest day

of the year and days have to be equal to nights on the days of

Vishuvas---- --this has been clarified in theVedanga Jyotisham in no

uncertain terms.

 

As such, imaginary animals maybe alright for making correct predictions,

but those animals have to be eliminated mercilessly from the gamut of

Vedic calenars as they are making all the festivals spin on their heads.

That is why I request all the jyotishis that they may select watever

ayanamsha or zodiac (type of animals!) etc. etc. they want for making

correct predictions, but they must leave the Vedic calendar alone!

 

<5. I am on your side as far as phalita jyotish is concerned, with its

ability to predict correct results from the wrong set of data!>

 

Many thanks for your good wishes. In fact, I appreciate the contrarian

views as much as my own views since it gives me an opportunity to clear

my own doubts, if any, in a better manner, to myself, becaue unless I

convince myself first that I am on the rigth track, I will never be able

to clarify it to others.

 

As the saying goes, satyam eva jayate naanritam.

 

Jai Shri Ram

 

HinduCalendar, narayan iyer z1e1b1r1a@

wrote:

>

 

> Namaste Sri AKKji,

>

> On the current discussion, I would like to know the following:

>

> 1. Are there any week-days, like bhanu-vasara, indu-vasara etc.

mentioned in the vedas? If not vedas, what is their origin?

>

> 2. Do all portion of vedas speak about 6 ritus unequivocally? I

remember having read in some portion of brahmanas/aranyaka mention of

only 5 ritus, and if I recall correctly Shishira and Hemanta ritus were

clubbed together.

>

> 3. What would we be missing if only solar return is considered for

celebrating festivals instead of the existing soli-lunar or luni-solar

calendars and their contradiction and reconciliation.

>

> 4. You seem to have adopted a harsh language in respect of imaginery

Ram, bull, zodiac etc. What if they are imaginery? Aren't the

international dateline, equator, the lines that divide the earth to form

tropic of cancer, tropic of capricorn, etc. imaginery? Although the

international date line is imaginery, the date is very real, as also

though the lattitudanal etc. divisions are imaginery, the existence of

tropical forests like savannah and tundra regions are real, isn"t it?

So, why one set of imaginations/ assumptions is okay and the other not?

>

> 5. I am on your side as far as phalita jyotish is concerned, with its

ability to predict correct results from the wrong set of data!!!

>

> Regards,

>

> narayan

>

>

>

>

>

> --- On Sat, 11/7/09, Krishen jyotirved@ wrote:

>

 

--- End forwarded message ---