[VRI] Fwd: niradhar Sayana versus Niradhar nirayana zodiac/rashis!

November 10, 2009

--- On Tue, 11/10/09, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya wrote:

Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya

Re: [VRI] Fwd: Re: niradhar Sayana versus Niradhar

nirayana zodiac/rashis!

vedic_research_institute

Cc:

Tuesday, November 10, 2009, 3:01 PM

Â

Dear friends,

On the otherhand it does not prove that Atharva Jyotisha is of 500 BCE. Moreover

one who has readÂ the MahabharataÂ knows thatÂ Mangal and Shani are mentioned

by Vedavyasa. As regards the " Varas " the editor of Atharvana Jyotisha says in

page 3 that these names may be as old as the Aryan civilization itself and may

not have been extensively used in Vedic and Sanskrit literature on account of

the requirement of the tithi system in the yajna affairs. In the end of page 4,

extending to the beginning of page 5. he says that it is prior to 15th century

BCE. Mr. Krishen is misleading the members wilfully for which he must be

castigated.

Regards,

Sunil K. Bhattacharjya

--- On Tue, 11/10/09, Krishen <jyotirved (AT) sify (DOT) com> wrote:

Krishen <jyotirved (AT) sify (DOT) com>

[VRI] Fwd: Re: niradhar Sayana versus Niradhar nirayana

zodiac/rashis!

vedic_research_ institute

Tuesday, November 10, 2009, 12:50 AM

Â

Dear friends,

Jai Shri Ram!

The fact that there is a mention of weekdays and planets like Mangal,

Shani etc. in Atharva Jyoitisha is a proof in itself that that work is

of a period of post 500 BCE. The editor of that work also has said the

same thing in his preface to Atharva Jyotisha. The complete work is

available in the files section of hinducalendar forum and anybody can

check it for himself/herself there.

Jai Shri Ram!

A K Kaul

vedic_research_ institute, Sunil Bhattacharjya

<sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote:

>

> Dear friends,

>

> ////Ã‚ Ã‚ No. There is no mention of weekdays not only in the

Vedas but neither in the Vedanga Jyotisha nor itihasa. They are all

imports from some other country, probably around 500 BCE. That makes

Atharvajyotisha also a work of post 500 BCE.Ã‚ /////

>

> This is a wicked statement. What proof is there that Atharva jyotisha

is post 500 BCE work. Atharva Jyotisha?

>

> Regards,

>

> Sunil K. Bhattacharjya

>

> --- On Mon, 11/9/09, Krishen jyotirved@.. . wrote:

>

> Krishen jyotirved@.. .

> Fwd: Re: niradhar Sayana versus Niradhar

nirayana zodiac/rashis!

>

> Monday, November 9, 2009, 1:44 AM

>

> Ã‚

>

> HinduCalendar, " Krishen " jyotirved@ ..>

wrote:

>

> Shri Narayan Iyerji,

>

> Jai Shri Ram!

>

> Welcome to Hinducalendar forum and many thanks for your response.

>

> < 1. Are there any week-days, like bhanu-vasara, indu-vasara etc.

>

> mentioned in the vedas? If not vedas, what is their origin?>

>

> No. There is no mention of weekdays not only in the Vedas but neither

>

> in the Vedanga Jyotisha nor itihasa. They are all imports from some

>

> other country, probably around 500 BCE. That makes Atharvajyotisha

also

>

> a work of post 500 BCE.

>

> <2. Do all portion of vedas speak about 6 ritus unequivocally? I

>

> remember having read in some portion of brahmanas/aranyaka mention of

>

> only 5 ritus, and if I recall correctly Shishira and Hemanta ritus

were

>

> clubbed together.>

>

> You are absolutely right. Some Vedic mantras club two ritus together,

>

> and probably it is Shishira and Hemanta. It could be because in

certain

>

> parts of India Shishira is not as cold as in Northern regions, and as

>

> such, not much different from Hemanta. It is only a guess work and not

>

> a firm view. So do not impale me for the same!

>

> <3. What would we be missing if only solar return is considered for

>

> celebrating festivals instead of the existing soli-lunar or luni-solar

>

> calendars and their contradiction and reconciliation. >

>

> That is exactly what Gregorian calendar is doing---celebrating

birthdays

>

> as per " solar returns " ! These are two extremes---one is the solar

>

> calendar to the exclusion of synodic months and that is Gregorian! The

>

> other is pure synodic months, to the exclusion of solar months. That

is

>

> Hegira/Islamic calendar! The Vedic calendar is unique since it

combines

>

> both the lunar as well as solar phenomena--- vis-a-vis seasons!

>

> You must be aware that in India we never celebrate any Jayanti purely

on

>

> solar basis! Rama Navmi is a festival celebrated on Shukla Paksha

navmi

>

> in Chaitra. But that lunar Chaitra has to be pegged to the solar month

>

> Madhu. Janmashtami is celebrated on Shravana/Bhadra Krishna ashtami at

>

> midnight. But that Shrvana has to be pegged to solar Nabhas.

Similarly,

>

> there is Vamana Jayanti, Nrisimha Chaturdshi etc. etc. All on the

>

> basis of lunar tithis, but pegged to seasonal solar months.

>

> Equal importance is give to the four cardinal points. Some of the

>

> puranas say that by taking a bath during the ayana/vishuva sankrantis,

>

> one attains the punya of hundreds of Ashvamedha yajnyas. Those

>

> veryAyana sankrantis were known as Makara (Uttarayana) , Karkata

>

> (Dakshinayana) , Vasant Sampat (Mesha) and Sharat Sampat (Tula

Sankranti)

>

> as per those very puranas. Since phalita-jyotishis delinked their

>

> sankrantis from the Pauranic ones on the behest of Ganesha Daivajnya

>

> etc. after about sixteenth century, a dichotomy of sayana versus

>

> nirayana got created unnecessarily and the hindu community is reeling

>

> under the same, the worst casuality being the Hindu festivals.

>

> <4. You seem to have adopted a harsh language in respect of imaginery

>

> Ram, bull, zodiac etc. What if they are imaginery? Aren't the

>

> international dateline, equator, the lines that divide the earth to

form

>

> tropic of cancer, tropic of capricorn, etc. imaginery? Although the

>

> international date line is imaginery, the date is very real, as also

>

> though the lattitudanal etc. divisions are imaginery, the existence of

>

> tropical forests like savannah and tundra regions are real, isn " t it?

>

> So, why one set of imaginations/ assumptions is okay and the other

not?>

>

> The problem of Rams and Bulls arises when they get into direct

conflict

>

> witht the Vedic calendar! As on date, as you must be aware by now, we

>

> are not celebrating our festivals as per the Vedic lore since they are

>

> based on Madhu, Madhava etc. months and have nothing to do with Mesha,

>

> Vrisha etc. rashis, whether Sayana or nirayana. We are not celebrating

>

> our festivals as per the Puranas or even sidhantas either, not even

>

> geographical phenomena, since they are all so called Sayana! We are

>

> celebrating all the festivals only as per the whims and fancies of

>

> Lahiriwalas and Ramanawas and Muladharawalas etc. etc. since it is

>

> those very " walas " who decide our calendar and they decide it in a

very

>

> wrong manner because they base it all on imaginary Rams and Bulls!

>

> International date line is imaginary, but we never celebrate our

>

> festivals on that basis but on the basis of sunrise/sunset since the

day

>

> in India ranges from one sunrise to another. Simiarly some festivals

>

> depend on moonrise/moonset like Karuva Chauth etc.

>

> Vedic calendar is least bothered as to what name you give to

>

> Dakshinayana or Uttarayana-- whetehr you call it Tropic of Cancer or

>

> Caner of the Tropic! What it is bothered about is that the Uttarayana

>

> has to be the shortest day of the year and Dakshinayana the longest

day

>

> of the year and days have to be equal to nights on the days of

>

> Vishuvas---- --this has been clarified in theVedanga Jyotisham in no

>

> uncertain terms.

>

> As such, imaginary animals maybe alright for making correct

predictions,

>

> but those animals have to be eliminated mercilessly from the gamut of

>

> Vedic calenars as they are making all the festivals spin on their

heads.

>

> That is why I request all the jyotishis that they may select watever

>

> ayanamsha or zodiac (type of animals!) etc. etc. they want for making

>

> correct predictions, but they must leave the Vedic calendar alone!

>

> <5. I am on your side as far as phalita jyotish is concerned, with its

>

> ability to predict correct results from the wrong set of data!>

>

> Many thanks for your good wishes. In fact, I appreciate the contrarian

>

> views as much as my own views since it gives me an opportunity to

clear

>

> my own doubts, if any, in a better manner, to myself, becaue unless I

>

> convince myself first that I am on the rigth track, I will never be

able

>

> to clarify it to others.

>

> As the saying goes, satyam eva jayate naanritam.

>

> Jai Shri Ram

>

> HinduCalendar, narayan iyer z1e1b1r1a@

>

> wrote:

>

> >

>

> > Namaste Sri AKKji,

>

> >

>

> > On the current discussion, I would like to know the following:

>

> >

>

> > 1. Are there any week-days, like bhanu-vasara, indu-vasara etc.

>

> mentioned in the vedas? If not vedas, what is their origin?

>

> >

>

> > 2. Do all portion of vedas speak about 6 ritus unequivocally? I

>

> remember having read in some portion of brahmanas/aranyaka mention of

>

> only 5 ritus, and if I recall correctly Shishira and Hemanta ritus

were

>

> clubbed together.

>

> >

>

> > 3. What would we be missing if only solar return is considered for

>

> celebrating festivals instead of the existing soli-lunar or luni-solar

>

> calendars and their contradiction and reconciliation.

>

> >

>

> > 4. You seem to have adopted a harsh language in respect of imaginery

>

> Ram, bull, zodiac etc. What if they are imaginery? Aren't the

>

> international dateline, equator, the lines that divide the earth to

form

>

> tropic of cancer, tropic of capricorn, etc. imaginery? Although the

>

> international date line is imaginery, the date is very real, as also

>

> though the lattitudanal etc. divisions are imaginery, the existence of

>

> tropical forests like savannah and tundra regions are real, isn " t it?

>

> So, why one set of imaginations/ assumptions is okay and the other

not?

>

> >

>

> > 5. I am on your side as far as phalita jyotish is concerned, with

its

>

> ability to predict correct results from the wrong set of data!!!

>

> >

>

> > Regards,

>

> >

>

> > narayan

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > --- On Sat, 11/7/09, Krishen jyotirved@ wrote:

>

> >

>

> --- End forwarded message ---

>

November 11, 2009

Dear friends,On the otherhand it does not prove that Atharva Jyotisha is of 500 BCE. Moreover one who has read the Mahabharata knows that Mangal and Shani are mentioned by Vedavyasa. As regards the "Varas" the editor of Atharvana Jyotisha says in page 3 that these names may be as old as the Aryan civilization itself and may not have been extensively used in Vedic and Sanskrit literature on account of the requirement of the tithi system in the yajna affairs. In the end of page 4, extending to the beginning of page 5. he says that it is prior to 15th century BCE. Mr. Krishen is misleading the members wilfuuly for which he must be castigated.Regards,Sunil K. Bhattacharjya--- On Tue, 11/10/09, Krishen <jyotirved wrote:Krishen <jyotirved[VRI] Fwd: Re: niradhar Sayana versus Niradhar nirayana zodiac/rashis!vedic_research_institute Date: Tuesday, November 10, 2009, 12:50 AM

Dear friends,

Jai Shri Ram!

The fact that there is a mention of weekdays and planets like Mangal,

Shani etc. in Atharva Jyoitisha is a proof in itself that that work is

of a period of post 500 BCE. The editor of that work also has said the

same thing in his preface to Atharva Jyotisha. The complete work is

available in the files section of hinducalendar forum and anybody can

check it for himself/herself there.

Jai Shri Ram!

A K Kaul

vedic_research_ institute, Sunil Bhattacharjya

<sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote:

>

> Dear friends,

>

> ////Ã‚ Ã‚ No. There is no mention of weekdays not only in the

Vedas but neither in the Vedanga Jyotisha nor itihasa. They are all

imports from some other country, probably around 500 BCE. That makes

Atharvajyotisha also a work of post 500 BCE.Ã‚ /////

>

> This is a wicked statement. What proof is there that Atharva jyotisha

is post 500 BCE work. Atharva Jyotisha?

>

> Regards,

>

> Sunil K. Bhattacharjya

>

> --- On Mon, 11/9/09, Krishen jyotirved@.. . wrote:

>

> Krishen jyotirved@.. .

> Fwd: Re: niradhar Sayana versus Niradhar

nirayana zodiac/rashis!

>

> Monday, November 9, 2009, 1:44 AM

>

Ã‚

>

HinduCalendar, "Krishen" jyotirved@ ..>

wrote:

>

> Shri Narayan Iyerji,

>

> Jai Shri Ram!

>

> Welcome to Hinducalendar forum and many thanks for your response.

>

> < 1. Are there any week-days, like bhanu-vasara, indu-vasara etc.

>

> mentioned in the vedas? If not vedas, what is their origin?>

>

> No. There is no mention of weekdays not only in the Vedas but neither

>

> in the Vedanga Jyotisha nor itihasa. They are all imports from some

>

> other country, probably around 500 BCE. That makes Atharvajyotisha

also

>

> a work of post 500 BCE.

>

> <2. Do all portion of vedas speak about 6 ritus unequivocally? I

>

> remember having read in some portion of brahmanas/aranyaka mention of

>

> only 5 ritus, and if I recall correctly Shishira and Hemanta ritus

were

>

> clubbed together.>

>

> You are absolutely right. Some Vedic mantras club two ritus together,

>

> and probably it is Shishira and Hemanta. It could be because in

certain

>

> parts of India Shishira is not as cold as in Northern regions, and as

>

> such, not much different from Hemanta. It is only a guess work and not

>

> a firm view. So do not impale me for the same!

>

> <3. What would we be missing if only solar return is considered for

>

> celebrating festivals instead of the existing soli-lunar or luni-solar

>

> calendars and their contradiction and reconciliation. >

>

> That is exactly what Gregorian calendar is doing---celebrating

birthdays

>

> as per "solar returns"! These are two extremes---one is the solar

>

> calendar to the exclusion of synodic months and that is Gregorian! The

>

> other is pure synodic months, to the exclusion of solar months. That

is

>

> Hegira/Islamic calendar! The Vedic calendar is unique since it

combines

>

> both the lunar as well as solar phenomena--- vis-a-vis seasons!

>

> You must be aware that in India we never celebrate any Jayanti purely

on

>

> solar basis! Rama Navmi is a festival celebrated on Shukla Paksha

navmi

>

> in Chaitra. But that lunar Chaitra has to be pegged to the solar month

>

> Madhu. Janmashtami is celebrated on Shravana/Bhadra Krishna ashtami at

>

> midnight. But that Shrvana has to be pegged to solar Nabhas.

Similarly,

>

> there is Vamana Jayanti, Nrisimha Chaturdshi etc. etc. All on the

>

> basis of lunar tithis, but pegged to seasonal solar months.

>

> Equal importance is give to the four cardinal points. Some of the

>

> puranas say that by taking a bath during the ayana/vishuva sankrantis,

>

> one attains the punya of hundreds of Ashvamedha yajnyas. Those

>

> veryAyana sankrantis were known as Makara (Uttarayana) , Karkata

>

> (Dakshinayana) , Vasant Sampat (Mesha) and Sharat Sampat (Tula

Sankranti)

>

> as per those very puranas. Since phalita-jyotishis delinked their

>

> sankrantis from the Pauranic ones on the behest of Ganesha Daivajnya

>

> etc. after about sixteenth century, a dichotomy of sayana versus

>

> nirayana got created unnecessarily and the hindu community is reeling

>

> under the same, the worst casuality being the Hindu festivals.

>

> <4. You seem to have adopted a harsh language in respect of imaginery

>

> Ram, bull, zodiac etc. What if they are imaginery? Aren't the

>

> international dateline, equator, the lines that divide the earth to

form

>

> tropic of cancer, tropic of capricorn, etc. imaginery? Although the

>

> international date line is imaginery, the date is very real, as also

>

> though the lattitudanal etc. divisions are imaginery, the existence of

>

> tropical forests like savannah and tundra regions are real, isn"t it?

>

> So, why one set of imaginations/ assumptions is okay and the other

not?>

>

> The problem of Rams and Bulls arises when they get into direct

conflict

>

> witht the Vedic calendar! As on date, as you must be aware by now, we

>

> are not celebrating our festivals as per the Vedic lore since they are

>

> based on Madhu, Madhava etc. months and have nothing to do with Mesha,

>

> Vrisha etc. rashis, whether Sayana or nirayana. We are not celebrating

>

> our festivals as per the Puranas or even sidhantas either, not even

>

> geographical phenomena, since they are all so called Sayana! We are

>

> celebrating all the festivals only as per the whims and fancies of

>

> Lahiriwalas and Ramanawas and Muladharawalas etc. etc. since it is

>

> those very "walas" who decide our calendar and they decide it in a

very

>

> wrong manner because they base it all on imaginary Rams and Bulls!

>

> International date line is imaginary, but we never celebrate our

>

> festivals on that basis but on the basis of sunrise/sunset since the

day

>

> in India ranges from one sunrise to another. Simiarly some festivals

>

> depend on moonrise/moonset like Karuva Chauth etc.

>

> Vedic calendar is least bothered as to what name you give to

>

> Dakshinayana or Uttarayana-- whetehr you call it Tropic of Cancer or

>

> Caner of the Tropic! What it is bothered about is that the Uttarayana

>

> has to be the shortest day of the year and Dakshinayana the longest

day

>

> of the year and days have to be equal to nights on the days of

>

> Vishuvas---- --this has been clarified in theVedanga Jyotisham in no

>

> uncertain terms.

>

> As such, imaginary animals maybe alright for making correct

predictions,

>

> but those animals have to be eliminated mercilessly from the gamut of

>

> Vedic calenars as they are making all the festivals spin on their

heads.

>

> That is why I request all the jyotishis that they may select watever

>

> ayanamsha or zodiac (type of animals!) etc. etc. they want for making

>

> correct predictions, but they must leave the Vedic calendar alone!

>

> <5. I am on your side as far as phalita jyotish is concerned, with its

>

> ability to predict correct results from the wrong set of data!>

>

> Many thanks for your good wishes. In fact, I appreciate the contrarian

>

> views as much as my own views since it gives me an opportunity to

clear

>

> my own doubts, if any, in a better manner, to myself, becaue unless I

>

> convince myself first that I am on the rigth track, I will never be

able

>

> to clarify it to others.

>

> As the saying goes, satyam eva jayate naanritam.

>

> Jai Shri Ram

>

> HinduCalendar, narayan iyer z1e1b1r1a@

>

> wrote:

>

> >

>

> > Namaste Sri AKKji,

>

> >

>

> > On the current discussion, I would like to know the following:

>

> >

>

> > 1. Are there any week-days, like bhanu-vasara, indu-vasara etc.

>

> mentioned in the vedas? If not vedas, what is their origin?

>

> >

>

> > 2. Do all portion of vedas speak about 6 ritus unequivocally? I

>

> remember having read in some portion of brahmanas/aranyaka mention of

>

> only 5 ritus, and if I recall correctly Shishira and Hemanta ritus

were

>

> clubbed together.

>

> >

>

> > 3. What would we be missing if only solar return is considered for

>

> celebrating festivals instead of the existing soli-lunar or luni-solar

>

> calendars and their contradiction and reconciliation.

>

> >

>

> > 4. You seem to have adopted a harsh language in respect of imaginery

>

> Ram, bull, zodiac etc. What if they are imaginery? Aren't the

>

> international dateline, equator, the lines that divide the earth to

form

>

> tropic of cancer, tropic of capricorn, etc. imaginery? Although the

>

> international date line is imaginery, the date is very real, as also

>

> though the lattitudanal etc. divisions are imaginery, the existence of

>

> tropical forests like savannah and tundra regions are real, isn"t it?

>

> So, why one set of imaginations/ assumptions is okay and the other

not?

>

> >

>

> > 5. I am on your side as far as phalita jyotish is concerned, with

its

>

> ability to predict correct results from the wrong set of data!!!

>

> >

>

> > Regards,

>

> >

>

> > narayan

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > --- On Sat, 11/7/09, Krishen jyotirved@ wrote:

>

> >

>

> --- End forwarded message ---

>

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