Fwd: [hc] Jyotisha - science and prediction

[Guest guest]

Dear Shri Deshmukh-bhai,

Namaskar!

This post of September 22, 2007, on sveral forums, will give you some

idea about the tragic fact as to how the " past events " of Mr.A

tallied with the chart of his wife, taking the latter by mistake to

be the chart of Mr. A! The future events, however, remain shrouded

in darkness because they ae really interminate, whatever our

jyotishis may say!!

Regards,

AKK

WAVES-Vedic , " Avtar Krishen Kaul "

<jyotirved wrote:

 

hinducivilization , " Avtar Krishen Kaul "

<jyotirved@> wrote:

 

Shri Shankar Bhardwaj ji,

Namaskar!

 

You have said

<No, by data I mean the data of the " jiva " that is being studied. As

I said you know too many things about the life, its course, every

single event of life, and every life in the past and the future, of

the jiva. Which of these affects a prediction is too much of

permutations and combinations which simply not humanly possible to

calculate. It is for this that you need the grace of Devata, to

throw light on the most relevant causes or results for that matter

and not because you are not able to see those mass of facts. It is

precisely to get your attention on to the " right " fact. >

 

AKK

Way back in 1966 I had been to Hoshiarpur in Punjab to famous Brighu

Jyotishis -- a couple of them! I was accompanied by several

friends. All of us were reverant towards those Brighujis since we

had absolute conviction that Brighu Samhita was revealed by none

other than Brighu Rishis himself!

 

Brighu Jyotishi narrated to me my past life and also as to what had

happened to me till then and what was going to happen to me in

future! I do not know whether what he told me about my past life

was his own " hallucination " or a genuine fact, but what he told me

about the main events of my present life till then was amazing! He

even " read " from the Brighusamhita the exact timining of our

consulting Brighuji! However, most of the (then) future events were

a miserable failure, since he had never predicted that I would try

to reform the deformed Hindu calendar nor had he told me anything

about my interest in Sidhantic or modern astronomy etc. He, in

fact, never predicted that I would decry " Vedic astrology " as the

greatest fraud on the Vedas!

All he had " predicted " was that I would be an officer of the rank of

IAS or so and would ultimately be a dealer of jewerllery!

Nothing like that happened!

 

Brighuji then read the horscopes of my other friends as well in a

similar manner!

 

When we returned to Jammu, we found a faux pas -- one of my

(Kashmiri) friends, who had got married recently then, had taken the

horoscope of his wife by mistake instead of his own horoscope with

him. Since the horoscope was in Sharda, he had no idea as to what

had happened! He had given that horoscope to Brighu Jyotishi as his

own horoscope, since it was said that Brighu jyotishi could read

Sharda script also! The cat was out of the bag only when I saw that

horoscope since I alone could read Sharda script! To our amazement,

Brighu Jyotishi had deciphered that horoscope as the horoscope of my

friend instead of his wife's, though he had given planetary details

accurately in the chart he had read! In other words, planetary

details of the wife's horoscope were correct---who was younger by

three years than her husband!-- but the results had been " revealed "

by Brighuji for the male memeber, even for his earlier janmma and

his future life! What was all the more surprising was that the

events that had happened to my friend till then, like his meeting

with an accident about a couple of years prior to visiting Brighuji

and so on, were also uncnnily " revealed " to him!

 

We just could not believe our eyes or ears -- eyes becuase my

friend had put down in his own hand every word Brighuji had uttered -

- and ears because Brighuji had narrated all those things verbally

to my friend!

After a few months, my friend went to that Brighuji again and

informed him about the error! But as was expected, Brighuji was

sure that that just was not possible! He wanted to see the proofs,

which none of us had, since Brighuji had not given anything in

writing to anybody, nor had he given any receipt for any fees etc.

 

So, maybe you can know youself about the jiva and his previous and

future births from his horscope, but if anybody else is telling you

that he can do so, please do take those statements with not a pinch,

but a bagful of salt!

 

If there have been some exceptions, we must treat them as

exceptions! Secondly, if " tapas " (grace of Devta!)is necessary for

reading your future, horoscope is hardly necessary then! In fact,

there maybe an inherent conflict between what you see by

your " tapasya " and what your horoscope tells you! Very often, there

is only an absolutely thin partition between " intuition "

and " confusion " (sometimes even a fraud!)and you never know when

confusion may overcome intuition!

 

You have said futher:

<Purana is not an astronomical text - we have indication of rasis.

And we also have indication of year starting with mesha, in the form

of Prajapati getting killed and taking new life with the head of a

goat. The problem is that this is an indication of " beginning of

year with Sun in the Mesha " , if we want to see the indication. If we

do not want to, it is not. "

 

AKK

It appears you want to have an argument just for the sake of an

argument! Or is it a " heads I win and tails you lose " situation!

On the one hand, you say that if there are no Rashis in the Vedas,

they are in the puranas, but when confrotned with the fact that the

rashis in the puranas are all so called sayana, you conveniently

switch the gears that puranas are not astronomical works! Then

again,if the beginning of the solar year as per puranas was the day

when the day was equal to night, i.e. Spring Equinox, (Sayana Mesha)

what has changed since then to make the solar year start on April

14/15? Nothing but the " command " of Lahiriwalas! Ramanawalas will

ask you to celebrate it on a still different date, Revati-walas on a

still different date and so on! As otherwise the day is equal to

night on Spring Equinox even today! Winter Solstice is the shortest

day of the year even today and so on! You cannot take refuge behind

the ayanamsha hoax either! If Vishnu-purana,Bhagavata or Shiva

Purana or Vishnudharmotarapurana etc. --- all of them talk of the

solar year starting on Spring Equinox day, (Sayana Mesha) do you

mean to say that all those works were of zero ayanamsha year? Or

are they just to be thrown into dustbin now since our " almighty "

Lahiri and Lahirwalas tell us that Mesha Sankranti takes place these

days on April 14 instead of on the day of Spring Equinox?

 

Even Alberuni has said in his " India " that Spring Equinox was the

start of the solar year in India then! Do you mean to say that that

also was a zero ayanamsha year or was Alberuni also telling a lie?

 

You have said further:

<If the question is whether we can " prove " the uttarayana-mesha-rasi-

navagraha thing, the answer is probably no (probably because I

cannot prove it, and I am not sure if anyone can).>

AKK

I am at a loss to understand as to what you mean by the above

statement since almost all the puranas refer to navagrahas and Mesha

etc. Rashis---though all of them are Sayana

The problem arises only when we make conjectures about our own

cultural heritage just believing in what " Vamadeva "

or " Abhinavaparashara " has said! I suggest you go through all the

Vedas, Puranas and sidhantas etc. etc. yourself first and then enter

into a disucssion on the topics in those works since it is otherwise

a sheer wastage of time, as you are trying to discuss something

about which you have no first hand knowledge yourself!

With regards,

Avtar Krishen Kaul

hinducivilization , ShankaraBharadwaj

Khandavalli <shankarabharadwaj@> wrote:

>

> Namaskar Sri Avtar Kishen Kaul ji,

>

> " If by data you mean the planetary longitudes, I have already

> answered your points that with the proliferation of ayanamshas,

it

> is impossible to pinpoint any one ayanamsha, including zero

> ayanamsha, for correct predictions!

>

> If by " data " you mean books on predictive astrology, I am afraid

the

> very first book on " Indian astrology "

>

> No, by data I mean the data of the " jiva " that is being studied.

As I said you know too many things about the life, its course, every

single event of life, and every life in the past and the future, of

the jiva. Which of these affects a prediction is too much of

permutations and combinations which simply not humanly possible to

calculate. It is for this that you need the grace of Devata, to

throw light on the most relevant causes or results for that matter

and not because you are not able to see those mass of facts. It is

precisely to get your attention on to the " right " fact.

>

> " I am really glad that you have touched the topic of there being

> rashis in the Vishnu-purana etc. In fact rashis have been

mentioned

> not only in Vishnu Purana but also in Shiv Purana, the Bhagavata,

> the Vishnudharmotara, Devipurana etc. etc. Would you kindly

quote

> me even a single shloka from any of these puranas which does not

say

> that Makar Sankranti and Uttarayana are one and the same thing or

> Dakshinayana and Karka Sankranti are the same thing or that the

day

> and night are equal on the days of Tula and Mesha Sankrantis (The

> easiest reference is Vishnupura -- amsha 2, adhyaya 8). "

>

> Again, as I said, Purana is not an astronomical text - we have

indication of rasis. And we also have indication of year starting

with mesha, in the form of Prajapati getting killed and taking new

life with the head of a goat. The problem is that this is an

indication of " beginning of year with Sun in the Mesha " , if we want

to see the indication. If we do not want to, it is not. If the

question is whether these things are available in the seed form of

the ideas in the Purana, the answer is yes. If the question is

whether we can " prove " the uttarayana-mesha-rasi-navagraha thing,

the answer is probably no (probably because I cannot prove it, and I

am not sure if anyone can). But the point is, if we see how these

things are found more and more references in later texts, we can

easily observe the development of these ideas.

>

> " In other words, you are celebrating all your fetivals and

muhurtas

> on worng days, thanks to your knowledge of Lahiri Jyotisha and

> Ramana Jyotish and " vast data " (Pl. see BVB6.doc)

> Obviously, you cannot have the cake and eat it as well -- you

have

> either to follow your dharma-shastra or follow Lahiris and Ramans

at

> the cost of your dharma! "

>

> This I think is a stretch, because your stand is everything is

wrong. I do not think so. After all, how old is Lahiri's or Raman's

version? There are many levels of things between the extremes, from

everything is wrong, to something is wrong, to something is

calculated wrong somewhere in the middle, to all is fine. I am not

saying the last, but to say the first too is an overstatement,

because there is enough sample to negate that the basics are wrong.

With wrong basics you can never do right predictions. As I said in

another post, if any trained jyotishi, who learnt the theory

properly from a guru through the guru-sishya parampara, says that he

is able to predict correctly in spite of the wrong theory he

studied, then it is good evidence.

>

> Avtar Krishen Kaul <jyotirved@>

wrote: Shri Shankar Bhardwaj ji,

> Namaskar!

> SB:

> < repeat it is vastness of data available in jyotisha, and that is

> something you ignored.>

>

> AKK

> If by data you mean the planetary longitudes, I have already

> answered your points that with the proliferation of ayanamshas,

it

> is impossible to pinpoint any one ayanamsha, including zero

> ayanamsha, for correct predictions!

>

> If by " data " you mean books on predictive astrology, I am afraid

the

> very first book on " Indian astrology " was compiled by Yavanaraja

> Sphujidwaja in around second century AD and it is known

> as " Sphujidwaja's Yavna Jatakam " . It has been meticulously and

> authoritatively annotated and edited by David Pingree and is

> publsihed by Harvard University Press. (It is these days out of

> print, but some second hand copies can be had in " raddi " i.e.

waste-

> paper)

>

> Pingree has proved it beyond all the shades of doubt that this

very

> first work of Indian astrology is based on Babylonian system in

> toto, in spite of the fact that the names of Rashis are Sanskrit

> viz. Mesha, Vrisha etc.! After that " very first book of Indian

> astrology " , we have got Brihat Jatakam and Brihat Samhita by

> Varahamihira! The former is an exposition of Yavana Jatakam by

> Sphujidwaja and the latter a work which is not worth the paper on

> which it has been printed! Irrespective of the eulogies showered

by

> translators and commentators on it (BS) it is one of the most

> misleading and anti-Hindu works actually, since instead of asking

> you to follow your dharma,it instills a fear psychosis that we

> should be afraid even of the directions in which a swallow flies!

>

> Then these days we have the " Bible " of jyotishis, viz. Brihat

> Parashara Hora Shastra supposed to have been narrated by

Parashara

> Rishi of Vishnu Purana to Maitreya! How old such a work is can

be

> judged from the fact that it tells us to use Grahalghava (a work

of

> 16th century!) Ayanamsha viz. Shaka 444 as the zero ayanamsha

year!

> Then again, Utpala has said in his commentary on Brihat Samhita

that

> though he has heard about " Parashari " but not seen it! And that

is

> why S B Dikhit in his " Bharatiya Jyotisha Sahstra " had to comment

> wryly, " If Brihat Prashara Hora Shastram was not available in 8th

> century AD, how can it be available today " . Dikshit also has

> commented that the " Parashari " available in the market during his

> days was a concoction!

> Besides that " Parashari " there are half a dozen other versions of

> Parasharis avialable these days, all claimig to be written by

> Maharshi Parashara! Surprisingly, all these versions are

sffering

> from a curse of bables since no version agress with another in

any

> respect!

> That much for Parashari!

> Then we have Kalidasa's Jyotirvidabharanam! This namesake of

> Kalidasa claims to be the same Mahakavi Kalidasa who has written

> Vikramorvashi or Abhijnyan-Shakantulam etc. It is just like

every

> good for nothing astrolgoer of today claiming that he is an

> incarnation of Parashara or Vmadeva etc. forgetting that

original

> Vamadevas or Parasharas did not touch predictive gimmicks even

with

> a barge pole!

> There are quite a few other books on astrology---in fact lots and

> lots of them! But all of them say that either Brihat Parashari

or

> Varahamihira etc. are their beacon-lights! Now you can well

imagine

> the accuracy of predictions of such works!

>

> SB:

> <But Purana has enough proof, if only you want to look at it. You

> can find all the 12 rashis in symbols.>

>

> AKK

> I am really glad that you have touched the topic of there being

> rashis in the Vishnu-purana etc. In fact rashis have been

mentioned

> not only in Vishnu Purana but also in Shiv Purana, the Bhagavata,

> the Vishnudharmotara, Devipurana etc. etc. Would you kindly

quote

> me even a single shloka from any of these puranas which does not

say

> that Makar Sankranti and Uttarayana are one and the same thing or

> Dakshinayana and Karka Sankranti are the same thing or that the

day

> and night are equal on the days of Tula and Mesha Sankrantis (The

> easiest reference is Vishnupura -- amsha 2, adhyaya 8).

> If according to all the Puranas and shastras Makar Snakranti is

> another name of the shortet day of the year, Karkata sankranti is

> the longest day of the year, Tula and Mesha Sankrantis are the

days

> when day is equal to night it means that all these puranas, in

one

> voice, are advising you to celebrate Makar Sankranti on December

21!

> But you celebrate it on January 14/15, only because your jyotishi

> tells (orders!) you to do so! Similarly, we must celebrate

> Vaishakhi-cum-Mesha-Sankranti-cum-meshadi on March 21, when the

day

> is equal to night, but you are celebrating it on April 14 --

only

> because Lahirwalas are asking (ordering!) you to do so! Same is

the

> case with all the other sankrantis and months and thereby

muhurtas --

> In other words, you are celebrating all your fetivals and

muhurtas

> on worng days, thanks to your knowledge of Lahiri Jyotisha and

> Ramana Jyotish and " vast data " (Pl. see BVB6.doc)

> Obviously, you cannot have the cake and eat it as well -- you

have

> either to follow your dharma-shastra or follow Lahiris and Ramans

at

> the cost of your dharma!

> The choice is yours!

> With regards,

> Avtar Krishen Kaul

> hinducivilization , " shankarabharadwaj "

> <shankarabharadwaj@> wrote:

> >

> > Namaskar Sri Avatar Kishen Kaul ji,

> >

> > I repeat it is vastness of data available in jyotisha, and that

is

> > something you ignored. If you are a good jyotishi, the moment

you

> look

> > at someone you will know everything of his present, previous and

> > coming lives and what not. The point is what is the data you

want

> to

> > consider for what kind of prediction.

> >

> > It is the experiential aspect of jyotisha that you are

ignoring.

> You

> > are attributing all the experiential aspect to purely tapas and

it

> is

> > not right. Tapas is essential for any darsana, whether it is

> > jyotissastra or any other sastra. But that does not invalidate

the

> > sastra.

> >

> > " For example, let us take the case of various Ayanamsha-walas!

> The

> > > following are the most important ayanamshas being practiced

by

> > > respective astrologers because they find predictions to be

most

> > > correct according to that and only that Ayanamsha. "

> >

> > I do not think, since each of them has some aspects that are

more

> > accurate and some that are less accurate. So it depends on the

> nature

> > of prediction or the aspect you are looking at, which will be

more

> > accurate.

> >

> > And coming to negating rashis and grahas in Veda/Itihasa-

Puranas,

> I do

> > not think anyone said there are a list of rashis in them. It is

a

> > debate repeated enough but ending in nothing. After all they

are

> not

> > texts on astronomy to give such lists. But Purana has enough

> proof, if

> > only you want to look at it. You can find all the 12 rashis in

> > symbols. If you do not want to find it, and say it is not

there,

> there

> > is nothing to argue or prove or disprove in it. If you want

> evidence

> > to examine whether it is there, there is enough, like already

> > mentioned - Siva as Vrishabha vahana, Durga as Simhavahini,

> Manmatha

> > as Makaradhvaja etc. And these are Puranic symbols. And they do

> have

> > astronomical symbolism apart from esoteric. If you want to see.

If

> you

> > want to dismiss, it is not there for you. Just like the way

there

> is

> > God if you think He is there and not there if you don't think

He is

> > there.

> >

> >

> > hinducivilization , " Avtar Krishen Kaul "

> > <jyotirved@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Shri Shankara Bhardwaj ji,

> > > Namaskar!

> > > < Your stand is that the data your uncle had was incorrect

but

> his

> > > prediction was right. My stand is that, the data is

> not " incorrect "

> > > but vast.>

> > >

> > > The more accurate the data is, the chances are thatthe more

> > > incorrect the prediction will be! No, it is no joke, but a

> fact!

> > > For example, let us take the case of various Ayanamsha-

walas!

> The

> > > following are the most important ayanamshas being practiced

by

> > > respective astrologers because they find predictions to be

most

> > > correct according to that and only that Ayanamsha. The

> > > approximate " magnitudes " of Ayanamshas are for January 1,

2007.

> > > 1. Lahiri Ayanamsha -- 24 degrees

> > > 2. Ramana Ayanamsha -- 22.5 degrees

> > > 3. Revati (Tilak) Ayanamsha - 20 degrees

> > > 4. Muladhara (Chandra Hari) Ayanamsha - 24.75 degrees

> > > 5. Grahalaghava Ayanamsha -- 24.75 degrees

> > > 6. Chopra Ayanamsha -- 12 degrees

> > > 7. Cyril Fagan Ayanamsha - 25 degrees

> > > 8. Sayana (they also call themselves Vedic astrologers!) - 0

> degrees

> > > 9. The actual ayanamsha if we take " First Point of Aries "

having

> > > left Aries constellation in 68 BC = about 29 degrees.

> > >

> > > Now you can well imagine that if predictions as per all these

> > > ayanamshas, ranging from zero degrees to 29 degrees, are

> correct,

> > > they can never be correct then since acceptance of one

ayanamsha

> > > negates the possibility of other ayanamshas being correct!

> > > If just one ayanamsha-walla is correct, all the others are

liars

> and

> > > cheats taking a common man for a ride!

> > > Which one is correct, if any ayanamsha is correct at all, can

be

> any

> > > body's guess!

> > > Almost all these different ayanamshas are being propagated

> through

> > > one or the other forum on internet! " Vedic-astrology "

()

> forum

> > > is the most prolific one! It just accepts every ayanamsha as

> > > correct! That is why it has the maximum membership -- about

> 7000

> > > and counting! If anybody points out such inconsistencies, he

is

> > > mercilessly shown the door even without being given a chance

to

> > > clarify his stand! I am a " live demonstration " of such " large

> > > heartedness " of that forum!

> > >

> > >

> > > We have also to bear in mind that the horoscopes as per all

> these

> > > ayanamshas are computer calculated! Thus their accuracy

cannot

> be

> > > doubted at all!

> > > To crown it all, all these ayanamshaqwalas call

> themselves " Vedic

> > > astrologers " .

> > > And as usual, our fasts, fairs and muhurtas are the main

> casualty

> > > because of all these " accurate data " .

> > > With regards,

> > > Avtar Krishen Kaul

> >

>

>

>

>

>

 

--- End forwarded message ---

[Guest guest]

hinducivilization , ShankaraBharadwaj Khandavalli

<shankarabharadwaj wrote:

 

Namaskar Sri Avtar Kishen Kaul ji,

 

" If by data you mean the planetary longitudes, I have already

answered your points that with the proliferation of ayanamshas, it

is impossible to pinpoint any one ayanamsha, including zero

ayanamsha, for correct predictions!

 

If by " data " you mean books on predictive astrology, I am afraid the

very first book on " Indian astrology "

 

No, by data I mean the data of the " jiva " that is being studied. As I said you

know too many things about the life, its course, every single event of life, and

every life in the past and the future, of the jiva. Which of these affects a

prediction is too much of permutations and combinations which simply not humanly

possible to calculate. It is for this that you need the grace of Devata, to

throw light on the most relevant causes or results for that matter and not

because you are not able to see those mass of facts. It is precisely to get your

attention on to the " right " fact.

 

" I am really glad that you have touched the topic of there being

rashis in the Vishnu-purana etc. In fact rashis have been mentioned

not only in Vishnu Purana but also in Shiv Purana, the Bhagavata,

the Vishnudharmotara, Devipurana etc. etc. Would you kindly quote

me even a single shloka from any of these puranas which does not say

that Makar Sankranti and Uttarayana are one and the same thing or

Dakshinayana and Karka Sankranti are the same thing or that the day

and night are equal on the days of Tula and Mesha Sankrantis (The

easiest reference is Vishnupura -- amsha 2, adhyaya 8). "

 

Again, as I said, Purana is not an astronomical text - we have indication of

rasis. And we also have indication of year starting with mesha, in the form of

Prajapati getting killed and taking new life with the head of a goat. The

problem is that this is an indication of " beginning of year with Sun in the

Mesha " , if we want to see the indication. If we do not want to, it is not. If

the question is whether these things are available in the seed form of the ideas

in the Purana, the answer is yes. If the question is whether we can " prove " the

uttarayana-mesha-rasi-navagraha thing, the answer is probably no (probably

because I cannot prove it, and I am not sure if anyone can). But the point is,

if we see how these things are found more and more references in later texts, we

can easily observe the development of these ideas.

 

" In other words, you are celebrating all your fetivals and muhurtas

on worng days, thanks to your knowledge of Lahiri Jyotisha and

Ramana Jyotish and " vast data " (Pl. see BVB6.doc)

Obviously, you cannot have the cake and eat it as well -- you have

either to follow your dharma-shastra or follow Lahiris and Ramans at

the cost of your dharma! "

 

This I think is a stretch, because your stand is everything is wrong. I do not

think so. After all, how old is Lahiri's or Raman's version? There are many

levels of things between the extremes, from everything is wrong, to something is

wrong, to something is calculated wrong somewhere in the middle, to all is fine.

I am not saying the last, but to say the first too is an overstatement, because

there is enough sample to negate that the basics are wrong. With wrong basics

you can never do right predictions. As I said in another post, if any trained

jyotishi, who learnt the theory properly from a guru through the guru-sishya

parampara, says that he is able to predict correctly in spite of the wrong

theory he studied, then it is good evidence.

 

Avtar Krishen Kaul <jyotirved wrote: Shri

Shankar Bhardwaj ji,

Namaskar!

SB:

< repeat it is vastness of data available in jyotisha, and that is

something you ignored.>

 

AKK

If by data you mean the planetary longitudes, I have already

answered your points that with the proliferation of ayanamshas, it

is impossible to pinpoint any one ayanamsha, including zero

ayanamsha, for correct predictions!

 

If by " data " you mean books on predictive astrology, I am afraid the

very first book on " Indian astrology " was compiled by Yavanaraja

Sphujidwaja in around second century AD and it is known

as " Sphujidwaja's Yavna Jatakam " . It has been meticulously and

authoritatively annotated and edited by David Pingree and is

publsihed by Harvard University Press. (It is these days out of

print, but some second hand copies can be had in " raddi " i.e. waste-

paper)

 

Pingree has proved it beyond all the shades of doubt that this very

first work of Indian astrology is based on Babylonian system in

toto, in spite of the fact that the names of Rashis are Sanskrit

viz. Mesha, Vrisha etc.! After that " very first book of Indian

astrology " , we have got Brihat Jatakam and Brihat Samhita by

Varahamihira! The former is an exposition of Yavana Jatakam by

Sphujidwaja and the latter a work which is not worth the paper on

which it has been printed! Irrespective of the eulogies showered by

translators and commentators on it (BS) it is one of the most

misleading and anti-Hindu works actually, since instead of asking

you to follow your dharma,it instills a fear psychosis that we

should be afraid even of the directions in which a swallow flies!

 

Then these days we have the " Bible " of jyotishis, viz. Brihat

Parashara Hora Shastra supposed to have been narrated by Parashara

Rishi of Vishnu Purana to Maitreya! How old such a work is can be

judged from the fact that it tells us to use Grahalghava (a work of

16th century!) Ayanamsha viz. Shaka 444 as the zero ayanamsha year!

Then again, Utpala has said in his commentary on Brihat Samhita that

though he has heard about " Parashari " but not seen it! And that is

why S B Dikhit in his " Bharatiya Jyotisha Sahstra " had to comment

wryly, " If Brihat Prashara Hora Shastram was not available in 8th

century AD, how can it be available today " . Dikshit also has

commented that the " Parashari " available in the market during his

days was a concoction!

Besides that " Parashari " there are half a dozen other versions of

Parasharis avialable these days, all claimig to be written by

Maharshi Parashara! Surprisingly, all these versions are sffering

from a curse of bables since no version agress with another in any

respect!

That much for Parashari!

Then we have Kalidasa's Jyotirvidabharanam! This namesake of

Kalidasa claims to be the same Mahakavi Kalidasa who has written

Vikramorvashi or Abhijnyan-Shakantulam etc. It is just like every

good for nothing astrolgoer of today claiming that he is an

incarnation of Parashara or Vmadeva etc. forgetting that original

Vamadevas or Parasharas did not touch predictive gimmicks even with

a barge pole!

There are quite a few other books on astrology---in fact lots and

lots of them! But all of them say that either Brihat Parashari or

Varahamihira etc. are their beacon-lights! Now you can well imagine

the accuracy of predictions of such works!

 

SB:

<But Purana has enough proof, if only you want to look at it. You

can find all the 12 rashis in symbols.>

 

AKK

I am really glad that you have touched the topic of there being

rashis in the Vishnu-purana etc. In fact rashis have been mentioned

not only in Vishnu Purana but also in Shiv Purana, the Bhagavata,

the Vishnudharmotara, Devipurana etc. etc. Would you kindly quote

me even a single shloka from any of these puranas which does not say

that Makar Sankranti and Uttarayana are one and the same thing or

Dakshinayana and Karka Sankranti are the same thing or that the day

and night are equal on the days of Tula and Mesha Sankrantis (The

easiest reference is Vishnupura -- amsha 2, adhyaya 8).

If according to all the Puranas and shastras Makar Snakranti is

another name of the shortet day of the year, Karkata sankranti is

the longest day of the year, Tula and Mesha Sankrantis are the days

when day is equal to night it means that all these puranas, in one

voice, are advising you to celebrate Makar Sankranti on December 21!

But you celebrate it on January 14/15, only because your jyotishi

tells (orders!) you to do so! Similarly, we must celebrate

Vaishakhi-cum-Mesha-Sankranti-cum-meshadi on March 21, when the day

is equal to night, but you are celebrating it on April 14 -- only

because Lahirwalas are asking (ordering!) you to do so! Same is the

case with all the other sankrantis and months and thereby muhurtas --

In other words, you are celebrating all your fetivals and muhurtas

on worng days, thanks to your knowledge of Lahiri Jyotisha and

Ramana Jyotish and " vast data " (Pl. see BVB6.doc)

Obviously, you cannot have the cake and eat it as well -- you have

either to follow your dharma-shastra or follow Lahiris and Ramans at

the cost of your dharma!

The choice is yours!

With regards,

Avtar Krishen Kaul

hinducivilization , " shankarabharadwaj "

<shankarabharadwaj@> wrote:

>

> Namaskar Sri Avatar Kishen Kaul ji,

>

> I repeat it is vastness of data available in jyotisha, and that is

> something you ignored. If you are a good jyotishi, the moment you

look

> at someone you will know everything of his present, previous and

> coming lives and what not. The point is what is the data you want

to

> consider for what kind of prediction.

>

> It is the experiential aspect of jyotisha that you are ignoring.

You

> are attributing all the experiential aspect to purely tapas and it

is

> not right. Tapas is essential for any darsana, whether it is

> jyotissastra or any other sastra. But that does not invalidate the

> sastra.

>

> " For example, let us take the case of various Ayanamsha-walas!

The

> > following are the most important ayanamshas being practiced by

> > respective astrologers because they find predictions to be most

> > correct according to that and only that Ayanamsha. "

>

> I do not think, since each of them has some aspects that are more

> accurate and some that are less accurate. So it depends on the

nature

> of prediction or the aspect you are looking at, which will be more

> accurate.

>

> And coming to negating rashis and grahas in Veda/Itihasa-Puranas,

I do

> not think anyone said there are a list of rashis in them. It is a

> debate repeated enough but ending in nothing. After all they are

not

> texts on astronomy to give such lists. But Purana has enough

proof, if

> only you want to look at it. You can find all the 12 rashis in

> symbols. If you do not want to find it, and say it is not there,

there

> is nothing to argue or prove or disprove in it. If you want

evidence

> to examine whether it is there, there is enough, like already

> mentioned - Siva as Vrishabha vahana, Durga as Simhavahini,

Manmatha

> as Makaradhvaja etc. And these are Puranic symbols. And they do

have

> astronomical symbolism apart from esoteric. If you want to see. If

you

> want to dismiss, it is not there for you. Just like the way there

is

> God if you think He is there and not there if you don't think He is

> there.

>

>

> hinducivilization , " Avtar Krishen Kaul "

> <jyotirved@> wrote:

> >

> > Shri Shankara Bhardwaj ji,

> > Namaskar!

> > < Your stand is that the data your uncle had was incorrect but

his

> > prediction was right. My stand is that, the data is

not " incorrect "

> > but vast.>

> >

> > The more accurate the data is, the chances are thatthe more

> > incorrect the prediction will be! No, it is no joke, but a

fact!

> > For example, let us take the case of various Ayanamsha-walas!

The

> > following are the most important ayanamshas being practiced by

> > respective astrologers because they find predictions to be most

> > correct according to that and only that Ayanamsha. The

> > approximate " magnitudes " of Ayanamshas are for January 1, 2007.

> > 1. Lahiri Ayanamsha -- 24 degrees

> > 2. Ramana Ayanamsha -- 22.5 degrees

> > 3. Revati (Tilak) Ayanamsha - 20 degrees

> > 4. Muladhara (Chandra Hari) Ayanamsha - 24.75 degrees

> > 5. Grahalaghava Ayanamsha -- 24.75 degrees

> > 6. Chopra Ayanamsha -- 12 degrees

> > 7. Cyril Fagan Ayanamsha - 25 degrees

> > 8. Sayana (they also call themselves Vedic astrologers!) - 0

degrees

> > 9. The actual ayanamsha if we take " First Point of Aries " having

> > left Aries constellation in 68 BC = about 29 degrees.

> >

> > Now you can well imagine that if predictions as per all these

> > ayanamshas, ranging from zero degrees to 29 degrees, are

correct,

> > they can never be correct then since acceptance of one ayanamsha

> > negates the possibility of other ayanamshas being correct!

> > If just one ayanamsha-walla is correct, all the others are liars

and

> > cheats taking a common man for a ride!

> > Which one is correct, if any ayanamsha is correct at all, can be

any

> > body's guess!

> > Almost all these different ayanamshas are being propagated

through

> > one or the other forum on internet! " Vedic-astrology " ()

forum

> > is the most prolific one! It just accepts every ayanamsha as

> > correct! That is why it has the maximum membership -- about

7000

> > and counting! If anybody points out such inconsistencies, he is

> > mercilessly shown the door even without being given a chance to

> > clarify his stand! I am a " live demonstration " of such " large

> > heartedness " of that forum!

> >

> >

> > We have also to bear in mind that the horoscopes as per all

these

> > ayanamshas are computer calculated! Thus their accuracy cannot

be

> > doubted at all!

> > To crown it all, all these ayanamshaqwalas call

themselves " Vedic

> > astrologers " .

> > And as usual, our fasts, fairs and muhurtas are the main

casualty

> > because of all these " accurate data " .

> > With regards,

> > Avtar Krishen Kaul

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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