Fwd: Ancient Siddhantic texts (of astronomical mathematics)

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hinducivilization , " Vedaprakash " <vedamvedaprakash

wrote:

 

 

You have raised many points questioning the status of Indian astronomy.

We have to discuss them without mincing the words. It is better to do

the exercise quoting from the sources, so that we would not waste time

or indulge in making mistakes.

 

 

 

We have to read the originals, read the translations and check with the

mss to find out the number of leaves of palm-leaf books containing

slokas. Out of 100, 1000 …leaves only one or two bring certain

details, which are subjected to interpretation. In other words, 90 to

99% of the text has been subject-oriented and Indian oriented only.

Here, one has to understand the " Indian historiography " also in

the study of " history of science and technology " . Based on such

few palm-leaves found in between, much has been written already. Take

the example of a sloka reportedly found after sloka 1 to 6 in Surya

Siddhanta as recorded by Burgess (The Surya Siddhanta, p.3):

 

 

 

" Go therefore to Romaka-city, thine own residence; there,

undergoing incarnation as a barbarian, owing to a curse of Brahma, I

will impart to thee this science " .

 

 

 

How to decide about this? About its authenticity or interpolation –

purpose of insertion – when done? These questions would expose.

 

 

 

Coming to Parasara, it all started with asking for the Parasara

manuscripts. The 18 Siddhants are:

 

 

 

1. Surya

2. Soma

3. Pitamaha

4. Vasistha

5. Atri

6. Parasara

 

1. Kasyapa

2. Narada

3. Gargya

4. Marici

5. Manu

6. Angirasa

 

1. Lomasa

2. Paurukutsa

3. Cyvana

4. Yavana

5. Bhrgu

6. Saunaka

 

 

 

So I tried to emphasize about the recognition of 5 or 18 Siddhantas, as

Parasara Siddhanta happens to be the one of 18 and not 5.

 

 

 

Though, Varahamihira mentions the five:

 

 

 

1. Paulisha

2. Romaka

3. Vasishta

4. Saura

5. Paithamaha

 

 

 

Paulisha and Romaka are not in the 18.

 

 

 

So when Varahamihira added the " two new ones " with the

" three from the above 18 " to form The FIVE, it does not mean

that the 18 were not there. But the fact is that he wanted to project

the FIVE for the reasons to be researched into. Ironically, in his

invocation, he mentions Dhinakara and Vaistha along with other sages. He

records about " Purvacharya " (Verse No.1). Latadeva commented

upon the TWO - Paulisha and Romaka (2) (which are not in the 18).

Though, he mentioned the order as above, he started with Vasistha

(Vasishrtha Siddhanta - Chapter 2).

 

 

 

The following has been the confession of G. Thibaut about the imperfect

and fragmentary nature of ms with which he treied to translate to

understand:

 

 

 

" Imperfect and fragmentary as (the) text and (the) translations are,

we may assert, at any rate, that in our endeavours to overcome the quite

unusual obstacles which the corrupt and bare text of the

Pachasiddhantika opposes to the interpreter, we have spread no trouble.

The time and thought devoted to the present volume would, I may say

without exaggeration, have amply sufficed for the editing and explaining

of twenty times the amount of text presenting only normal

difficulties " (G. Thoibaut, in the Preface, p.v).

 

 

 

That is why I commented in HC. No.20393. But, unfortunately, the point

was diverted with egoism stating that, " ….I have photocopy of all

original texts in hand ….I can read in original …I do not want

Kuppanna …..Your knowledge is zero…… " . I am very sorry the way

HC is going.

 

 

 

However, the western or European intention had / has been to discredit

Indian astronomy by bringing a discussion of astrology in it. The

Zodiacal interpretation of astronomy is invariably mixed with astrology

in such process. Indian scholars, particularly, with the background of

Sanskrit, Vedas and Vedangas had not been clever enough to match with

them in historical interpretation. They had knowledge of other

civilizations and matching factors, which the Indian scholars did not

know. Moreover, the Indian scholars had been imbibed with Itihasa and

Puranas while dealing with astronomy. So they were interpreting about

the Persians, Greeks, etc as " the degraded kshatriyas " , when

they were informed about the Greek-Babylonian-Assyrian astronomy with

astrology. Edward Pockoke, William Jones and others too accepted such

interpretation finding similarities between the Greek and Indian

civilizations. However, they struck to their interpretation that the

Indians derived from the Greek-Babylonian-Assyrian astronomy with

astrology.

 

 

 

About the asterism – 27 or 28 etc kindly see:

 

 

 

William D. Whitney, On the Views of Biot and Weber respecting the

relations of the Hindu and Chinese Systems of Asterisms with an

addition, on Muller's views respecting the same subject by William

D. Whitney, Journal of the American Oriental Society, Vol.VIII, 1864.

 

 

 

About Kaliyuga, kidly refer to the following:

 

 

 

1

 

Remarks on the Astronomy of the Brahmins

 

John Playfair

 

A paper presented on March 2, 1789 at the Royal Society of Edinburgh

 

 

 

2

 

The Kaliyuga Era of B. C. 3102

 

John Faithful Fleet

 

Journal of Royal asiatic Society, 1911, pp.479-496 & 675-698

 

 

 

3

 

Notes from " The Secret Doctrine " , Vol.I, Theosophical Press

Online edition

 

 

 

H. P. Blavatsky

 

Downloaded from the website, pp.647-668.

 

4

 

The Conjunction of 3102 B.C

 

 

 

B. L. Van Der Waerden

 

Centarus, 1980, Vol.24, pp.117-131.

 

5

 

Kali Era – The Lively Controversy Among the Western Scholars

 

K. V. Ramakrishna Rao

 

A paper presented at the Aryabhatteyam Seminar on April 20, 1999.

 

 

 

6

 

Steppiong into 52nd Century

 

Ravi Prakash Arya

 

Akhil Bharatiya Itihasa Sankalana Yojana, New Delhi – 110 055.

 

 

 

7

 

Hindu Chronology : Most Scientific System of Reckoning Time

 

 

 

R. Brahmachari & B. B. Basu

 

World of Science, pp.373-382.

 

8

 

The Vedangas

 

Gayatri Devi Vasudev

 

The Astrological Magazine, November 2002, Vol.91, No.11, pp.913-991.

 

 

 

9

 

Historicity, Atronomy and Kaliyuga

 

K. V. Ramakrishna Rao

 

Saptarishi era and Ancient Historical Dates, International Society for

the Investigation of Ancient Civilizations, Madras, 2003, pp.44-57

 

 

 

10

 

Kali Era as Gleaned from the Literary and Epigraphical Evidences.

 

K. V. Ramakrishna Rao

 

 

 

Ibid, pp.58-70.

 

 

 

We shall continue our discussion.

 

 

 

Anybody can give any comments (no diversion, no egoism, personal attacks

etc) without diluting the spirit.

 

 

The Confusion of Astyronomy and Astrology: As I mentioned about the

methodology of writing " History of Indian Science and

Technology " , the non-Indians and even Indians always think about

their Vedic Scientists, Vedic Astronomers, Vedic Mathematicians etc as

Brahmins with tufts, wearing sacred threads, donning ochre robes,

murmuring mantras, sitting before sacred fires (yagnas) and inventing or

discovering as if only through reciting mantras.

 

 

 

Whereas, the Greek and Arab counterparts are depicted with astronomical

instruments making observations, conducting experiments with astrolabes,

dealing with geared machines, pouring chemicals from round-bottom flask

to conical flask etc! Many times, the background of the imaginary

depictions of such scientists would be filled with machinery parts,

gears, telescopes, etc. Such figures prominently appear in standard

books, encyclopedias and internet too.

 

 

 

This is totally wrong. Mantra reciting Vedic or Brahman groups have been

different from other groups. Leaving that discussion aside, the Indian

Scientists-Astronomers-Mathematician groups were unique and they could

have arrived at such results only through observations, calculations and

experiments. Of course, we do not have the material evidences used for

observations, calculations and experiments.

 

 

 

However Negative Evidence cannot be evidence: Then, a question rises

naturally – " What happened to them " ? A numberless person

becoming expert in solving theorems, a blind man drawing a picture or

portrait or a dumb reciting Vedas, people manufacturing bricks of

exactly specific dimensions without such knowledge, manufacturing gold

jewelry without jewel art and technology, using gems without the

knowledge of gem cutting etc., cut without axe, broke without hammer,

chiseled without chisel, carved without implements? Absence of evidence

due to different reasons cannot be a reason to doubt the existence when

the subsequent events, records and others show that such things could

have existed.

 

 

 

The astrological interpretation of astronomy has marred Indian

astronomy. As a Siddhantic work contains the exact astronomy and also

cosmology, geography etc., the English-translators would make such

interpretation without understanding the significance. Thus, taking the

astrological interpretation of astronomy, the westerners have blown out

in to proportions that the Indian astronomers, though knew or borrowed

from others, they were ultimately interested only in astrology that too,

" predictive astrology " .

 

 

 

So in the name of Parasara, we have all sorts of Siddhantas, Samhitas

and Smritis and " Nadi sastra " works also. There is a work

" Gnana upadesham 22 " attributed to Parasara available (Fourth

part of Gnana sasthirat-tirattu) [R. N. Iyengar can go to Tamarai

Nulagam who have published some works and Vriddhacalam for Nasdi-works

and see such manuscripts of Parasara]. Even westerners have started

conducting courses in " Nadi sastra " ! In this way, Indians are

misled and made to forget their real scientific roots. Talking

scientific temper, we are loosing our temper and trying to harden than

cooling. And more and more such interpretation (of caricaturing,

ridiculing, and deriding nature) comes from Indians, that too, Hindus,

it becomes laughing stock for the westerners.

 

 

 

Suddenly a lot of interest has been generated in " Prasara Samhita /

Smruti / tantra " and there have been enquiries in the Oriental

manuscripts libraries, archives and other libraries. During July-August

alone, the enquiries about this particular manuscript have been

tremendous. My friend at one of such Manuscript libraries informs

particularly the enquiries from foreign and through Indian contacts has

been specifically about it, because it reportedly contains details about

astronomy, Silpa-sastra and medicine (three-in-one). A sculptor has been

hectic about acquiring it at any cost.

 

 

 

Again coming to the astrological mixup of Indian Astronomy, Varahamihira

is also associated with Brihat Samhita, Brihat Jataka etc., can we then

accuse him of introducing " predictve astrology " in India? The

favourite Persian came to India and spoiled the astronomical minds of

Indians turning them to predictive astrology forgetting observational

astronomy. A Greek or Persian for Indians becoming so irrational! There

has been one Prigu Manthrigam 100, can we accuse of Prigu for sorcery,

witchcraft etc? Why Varahamihira had not compiled " Pancha-Samhita,

Pancha-Jataka, Pancha-karana, Pancha-tantra " etc., but only

" Pancha-Siddhantika " ? I request scholars like A. K. Kaul and

others to research into this aspect critically.

 

 

 

Much of the controversy over the origin of Indian zodiac could be

avoided if a multi-disciplinary research is made out. Zodiac involves

mathematics, spherical geometry, geography, longitudes and latitudes,

and other subjects. That the 12 divides zodiac into equally into 300,

that the zone of the celestial sphere extending to a width of about 80,

etc., imply the known knowledge. That even modern and advanced astronomy

depends on 12 divisions perhaps divorcing the astrological symbolism

proves that it has been in use for many years.

 

 

 

Here, the Inthinai Zodiac " (The Zodiac represented by Five Parts of

Nature covering land, behaviour of birds, animals and people, Sun, Moon

and Stars) of the ancient Tamils / Indians represented with respective

seasonal, cyclic, climatic symbolism with animals, flowers, musical

instruments etc., may be interesting for consideration. It could have

been developed into 12 depending upon the exigency. We have been noting

how the number of asterism, planets etc., are changing according to

human precept, concept and development of hypotheses, theories and laws,

so also the enumeration of days, weeks, months etc. Therefore, the

ancient origin of Zodiac could be traced back to it, if the antiquity of

Tamil Indians (no linguistic or racial connotation please – the

Sanskrit-Tamil dichotomy has been only artificial and not real) is taken

into account.

 

 

 

VEDAPRAKASH

 

06-09-2007.

 

 

 

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