Fwd: Origin of skanda

[Guest guest]

hinducivilization , " rajita_rajvasishth "

<rajita_rajvasishth wrote:

 

I was the one who added that statement of the decline of skanda

worship. I known he is still worshiped in South India, but in the

North and central India the tradition has declined (Majority of

India). There were villages in HP called Skandaagrahara and

Skandagrama but their origin is forgotten. There is a single festival

held to please Karttik Svami in HP during which many of the

participants do not even seem to recognize which god it is for. What I

meant was a once very popular deity going by Mahabharat and Ramayan is

now largely ignored in the very places these texts were composed.

 

While I do not want to speak for my friend, I understand he was merely

pointing out the ignored Marut-Skanda connection. I remember him

saying that the kRittikA-agni part is " obvious " . I believe he has

written several articles on Kumara motifs and worship including what

Rangachari and Dr. Iyengar mention:

 

He mentions some aspects of the astronomical cognates in Skanda

pujanam here:

http://manollasa.blogspot.com/2006/11/on-to-shri-parvata.html

 

I am also pasting some other articles:

..........

kumAram mAtA yuvatiH samubdhaM guhA bibharti na dadAti pitre |

anIkam asya na minaj janAsaH puraH pashyanti nihitam aratau ||

The young mother keeps the boy hidden in secret, nor gives him to the

father;

Men see his undiminishing radiance only when he is set up on the fuel

sticks [reeds].

 

In the vedic context it refers to agni hidden within his " mother " : the

kindling wood block, who is hidden away from the father: the

fire-drill. He become visible only when placed on the fire-sticks in

the altar. The term aratau has been somewhat obscure to some

commentators. It is a synonym of aratni, which means a unit length

(probably ell), which is a metaphor for the samidh which might be an

aratni long.

 

Its relationship to the kaumara worship is explained thus: 1) the two

words kumAra and guha that come in the mantra are epithets of the god.

Further, as per the kaumara myth, kumAra was born secretly, hence his

name is guha, which is also the theme in this formula. 2) The young

mother (mAtA yuvatiH who holds kumAra secretly is interpretted as

either the goddess ga~NgA or the forest mother sharavana. 3) The

aratau are interepretted as the ell-long reeds: the sharas on which

kumAra was placed and became visible to all.

 

kam etaM tvaM yuvate kumAram peShI bibharShi mahiShI jajAna |

pUrvIr hi garbhaH sharado vavardhA pashyaM jAtaM yad asUta mAtA ||

What is this[child], swaddled in cloth, you bear young lady? the

mighty queen gave birth to him.

The embryo grew through many autumns. I saw him when his mother bore him.

 

In the vedic parlance two different mothers of agni are being alluded

to. The young lady who was carrying him swaddled in cloth and the

queen mother who originally bore him.

 

In the kaumara parlance the young mother is again ga~NgA or the reed

forest mother, while the mahiShI is taken to mean the great mother umA.

 

hiraNyadantaM shucivarNam ArAt kShetrAd apashyam AyudhA mimAnam |

dadAno asmA amR^itaM vipR^ikvat kim mAm anindrAH kR^iNavann anukthAH ||

I saw him from afar in his abode, bright-complexioned and with golden

teeth, hurling his weapons; When I have offered him soma, how can the

non-indra-worshippers and ones-without mantras attack me?

 

In the vedic sense agni protects the yajamAna from the dasyu-s, when

he offers oblations to the deva.

 

In the kaumara sense again kumAra is seen here- hurling his weapons,

drinking amR^ita from the gods and keeping away the enemies of indra.

 

vR^iShA jajAna vR^iShaNaM raNAya tamu cin nArI naryaM sasUva |

pra yaH senAnIr adha nR^ibhyo astInaH satvA gaveShaNaH sa dhR^iShNuH ||

The bull sired the bull for the sake of battle, and the firm mother

bore forth the manly warrior;

He who is the commander of the armies, the fore most of the manly, he

is the strong hero, brave and ready for war.

 

In the vedic context, it describes indra as the son of dyaus and aditi

[pR^ithivi], who becomes the commander of the forces leading the gods

in conflict.

 

In the kaumAra sense many points are seen as critical: 1) the epithet

senAnI- commander, is specifically that of kumAra. 2) The bull that

sires him from the sake of battle is obviously seen as rudra (also

described as vR^iSha in the veda) for the sake of the battle with the

enemies of the gods. The firm mother who bears him is seen as umA.

 

arbhako na kumArako .adhi tiShThan navaM ratham |

sa pakShan mahiSham mR^igam pitre mAtre vibhukratum ||

He, while yet a small boy, mounted his new chariot; He at his mother

and father's behest burnt the mighty buffalo.

 

In the vedic parlance indra is explained as slaying the buffalo even

when he was still a young boy and just born.

 

In the kaumara context this is seen as an allusion to the kumAra

mounting his chariot for war at his parent's behest to slay the demon

mahiSha. The vedic story of indra burning the buffalo is obscure.

However, it is possible it had some connection with the tale of kumAra

killing mahiSha.

 

 

agniriva manyo tviShitaH sahasva senAnIr naH sahure hUta edhi |

hatvAya shatrUn vi bhajasva veda ojo mimAno vi mR^idho nudasva ||

Blazing like agni, oh over-powering anger, you are invoked as the

commander of the army;

Slay our foes, distribute their weath and give us might to scatter our

enemies.

 

This is from the famous vedic manyu sUktaM.

 

In the atharva vedic tradition the R^iShi of this hymn is said to be

brahmAskanda. In the skanda yAga of gopatha and the shANmukha-kalpa

this hymn is supposed be used for the worship of kumAra. It contains

an epithet of kumAra- senAnI and the manyu sUktaM describes the

commander of deva armies as agni conjoint with the maruts (sons of rudra).

 

The adaptation of these vedic hymns for kumAra worship is not

particular surprising, especially given that agni's 'birth' in the

veda provides a parallel for the birth of kumara the son of agni (who

may be identified with rudra). Indeed in the shukla yajurvedic

tradition, the shatapata brAhmaNa calls a manifestation of rudra to be

kumAra. Many other elements of the kaumara myth are paralleled in the

veda. For example, agni is elsewhere described as having 7 mothers and

the constellation of agni is kR^ittikA [the mother of paurANic

kumAra]. The sons of rudra even in the vedic parlance- the maruts were

the leaders of the deva senA (RV 10.103.8):

" devasenAnAm abhibha~njatInAM jayantInAM maruto yantvagram " . The

nejameSha hymn in the RV khila is a direct reference to the deity, but

it is in the context of the birth-rites.

 

You might find some more of these here:

http://manollasa.blogspot.com/2006/10/kumara-vidya-s.html

 

--- End forwarded message ---

[Guest guest]

hinducivilization , " aareni " <aareni wrote:

 

I wish the anonymous friend of our learned member Smt.Rajita

participates in the discussions directly. It is a good post and very

important too. My general comments (not point by point, since the

writer's identity is unknown) are:

 

The key to understanding the `Skanda' myth is in the word itself.

He `fell down'. Where and when are difficult to answer. But the

celestial (astronomical?) imagery indicates a meteoritic shower or an

object falling on earth. This interpretation does not go against the

RV hymns and the MB stories. The RV connection to `skanda' as a WORD

is TriNaskanda in the hymn on Maruts. I don't know about paraskanda.

A reference would have been useful. In the 10th mandala we find the

word related with Drapsa (Drops in English!). The meaning of `falling

down' is the most natural one for the word. Hence, initially `skanda'

might have been a generic word.

 

Myths are like rivers! They allow tributaries to join them and one

may not know which is the main line and which is the branch.

Moreover without a guiding timeline, which stories evolved out of the

others, become personal opinions. IMHO there is no need to invoke

European myths to follow Marut and Skanda. Within Indian literature

they are traceable, provided we do not mix up later sectarian PuraNas

with Vedic lore. This is of course difficult. For example linking of

MangaLa with Skanda is a later concept. If this is not recognized it

is easy to think Agni-Kartikeya stands for Mars even in the Vedas. It

is also possible people in different part of India developed folklore

based on a single central core observation.

My personal interpretation:

As Vedic people started recognizing the physical features of Maruts

more and more after they landed on earth, they started using the

word `Ulka' (RV 10th mandala). There was no need to link Maruts with

Skanda every time and hence they became just `winds' However, there

was one Great Skanda who could not be forgotten, since he brought a

change in the culture and history of India, inducing a natural

disaster.

(http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/maha/skandapuranadisaster.pdf)

 

It is wrong to say that Skanda has been forgotten. If I may guess,

the friend of Rajita is a northerner having his/her own idea of

Hinduism unaware or unappreciative of the southern part of India.

Skanda Shasthi is a very important festival. Celebration of Adi

Krithhika in Tamil Nadu and Karnataka is very similar to the `Kaavad'

(Vedic Shikya) of UP, UK and HP, when water is taken from Ganga and

poured on Rudra(mimicking the Vedic agnicayana and shatarudriya

abhisheka). I wonder whether our friends in the North have

investigated the tradition of Kaavad properly. I will not be

surprised if this has a connection with Kumaara being crowned on the

banks of Sarasvati. (After the drying of Sarasvati, the scene seems

to have shifted to Haridvar).

 

The origin of Skanda Shasthi vrata (or festival) observed widely, is

easily traceable at least up to MB. It is the day after Skanda fell

on earth. In Aranya-parvan, several chapters are devoted to the

description of Agni (Fire) in his various aspects. The story of

Skanda as the son of a strange fire (Adbhutagni) is narrated in

detail.

esa raudrasya sanghato mahan yuktasca tejasa|

somasya vahni-suryabhyam adbhutoSyam samagamah||

samahuto hutavahah soSdbhutah suryamandalat||

vinihsrtya yayau vahnih vagyato vidhivat prabhuh| ara.p. 223.19,28 )

 

When Sun and Moon were together (on amavasya), there was a terrific

impact along with a light. This meeting of Moon with fire and Sun was

a strange phenomenon. A strange fire emanated from Sun and traveled

as told by Creator.

 

The narration personifies a celestial fire (light) with the name

Adbhuta (literally strange). In continuation of the above, it is

narrated that Adbhuta desired the wives of Seven Sages (Saptarsi i.e.

Ursa Major). There is an ancient myth cited in Satapatha Brahmana,

that Krttikas were denoted as wives of Saptarsis. Thus, in this

story a strange fire is associated with Pleiades. However, Svaha (a

daughter of Daksa) approaches Adbhuta in disguise, to collect his

energy and to land on earth in the form of a bird SuparNi. MB

presents this as a historical event to have occurred much before its

own period. If believed, the birth of Kartikeya would indicate an

exploding or a brightening star (or a fiery Comet). It is said that,

Skanda grew bigger day by day for FIVE DAYS.

dvitityayam abhivyaktah trtiyayam sisurbabhau|

anga-pratyanga sambhutah caturthyam abhavad guhaha||

lohitabhrena mahata samvrtah saha vidyuta|

lohitabhre sumahati bhati surya ivoditah||

tavatapantau samprekshya sabalosrkasamadyutih|

dvabhyam bhujabhyam akasam bahuso abhijaghanaha||

kridan bhati mahasenah trin lokan vadanaih piban|

parvatagre aprameyatma rasmiman udaye yatha

sa pasyan vividhan bhavan cakara ninadam punah

tasya tam ninadam srutva apatan bahudha janah||

sa tada vimala saktih ksipta tena mahatmana|

bibheda sikharam ghoram svetasya tarasa gireh||

tatah pravyathita bhumih vysiryata samantatah||

athainam abhajallokah skandam suklasya pancamim||

(ara.p.224.20,24,26,28,30,37,38,40)

" He manifested on the second day, became a child on the third and

acquired his limbs on the fourth day…He is covered with a huge

metallic glow and lightning. He shines in the reddish sky like the

rising sun…. That boy, equivalent to Sun in his light, hit the sky

several times with his two hands. Mahaasena, playing as though

drinking the three worlds with his mouth, shines at the top of the

mountain like Sun in the morning. He made a loud sound, hearing

which large number of people fell down…. Then, that spear projected

by him, broke the peak of White Mountain. The tormented earth broke

in many places…THEN, PEOPLE WORSHIPPED HIM AS SKANDA, WHO FELL DOWN

ON THE FIFTH DAY OF THE BRIGHT FORTNIGHT. "

There are different versions of the same episode available in MB,

giving a feeling that the celestial and terrestrial events might have

been mixed up in popular imagination. It is further said in the epic

that a war broke out between gods and demons. This may be an

allusion to falling objects, which were perhaps thought to be

originating from the region around Pleiades. The anecdote is

continued in the next chapter indicating change in weather.

 

" While the strong Mahasena was born, there were great disasters of

different kinds. Opposition between men and women and similar

inversion of dual phenomenon occurred. Planets blazed and earth

groaned strongly. People living near that Caitraratha forest, said

that all these bad happenings were brought about by Fire. Others,

blamed GaaruDi for the calamities. (ara.p. 225.1-5) "

This also hints at the possibility of the flying GaaruDi or SuparNi

to be a meteorite impacting the ground leading to calamities. The

place Caitraratha is traditionally identified as the region, in the

upper reaches of Sarasvati River, towards Himalayas. The event,

whenever it might have occurred, should have been of great import to

the various groups of people populating the country. We find the

same basic episode, described in different ways in later chapters

also. In chapter 230, Skanda is described as son of Rudra.

" Rudra, embraced his son and released him. As Skanda was released, a

big disaster took place and this suddenly stunned the gods. The sky

and stars burnt and the universe was paralysed…. Skanda (or Mahasena)

came burning with anger like Sun. Mahasena released the spear

(sakti). That spear removed the head of demon Mahisa. The fallen

head created a passage sixteen yojanas long, but being obstructed by

the falling mountain, remained unpassable. However, now the people

of Uttara-kuru, travel through that path. "

(ara.p. 230. 59,60,93,96-99)

 

Again, we come across the episode of Kartikeya in Salya parvan,

during the travelogue of Balarama along the course of Sarasvati. The

story is similar to what was described above, with minor differences.

Here, Kartikeya is said to have split into four parts, called Skanda,

S'aakha, Vis'aakha, and Naigameya (Sal.p. 45.39-40). As per the

description in this parvan, the last part namely, fiery Naigameya

arrived in Ganga. This notation Naigameya (one related to Nigama or

Veda) is indicative of a connection of this episode with Vedas. Once

again a battle between Kartikeya and a demon, this time called, BaaNa

is narrated. During this fight, Kartikeya is described as breaking

Mt.Kraunca, with the spear given by Fire (Sal.p. 47.84). After this,

in Salya-parvan, the story of sage Sarasvata and a severe famine,

which affected the region around River Sarasvati find mention.

 

atha kale vyatikrante mahatyati bhayankare|

anavrstih anuprapta rajan dvadasa varsiki|

tasyam dvadasa-varsikyam anavrstyam maharsayah|

vrtyartham pradravan rajan ksudharta sarvato disam|| (sal.p. 52.37-38)

 

" After some time, a severe drought occurred for a period of twelve

years. In that drought great sages affected by hunger, searching for

sustenance, went in all directions. "

 

In Shanti parvan, Nakula is supposed to ask Bhisma about the

importance of `sword'. Here again a celestial event connected with

Pleiades is described.

 

candrama vimala-vyoma yathabhyudita-tarakam|

vikiryagnim tathabhutam utthitam sruyate tada||

tasmin utpata-mane ca pracacala vasundhara|

mahormi-kalitavartah cuksubhe sa mahodadhih||

cacâra vividhân mârgân mahâbala parâkramah|

vidhunvan asim âkâse tathâ yuddha cikirsayâ||

krttikâstasya naksatram aseragnisca daivatam|

rohinîm gotramâsthâpya rudrasca gurusattamah|| ( san.p.

160.37,40,52,82)

 

" When the sky was clear with moon and stars, it is said that Asi

(sword) arose, emitting fire. As it arose, the earth shook and the

oceans got disturbed. Displaying the sword in the sky, being intent

on a battle, (Rudra) moved in various directions. For Asi, Krttika is

the birth star; Agni (fire) is the god; Rohini (Aldebaran) is the

clan and Rudra is the teacher. "

This myth is again that of a celestial object, since it is said that

Brahma (Creator) assured the gods and sages that he had intentionally

created this Asi, which means sword or spear. The sword is given to

Rudra the deity of constellation Ardra (Orion) to fight the demons.

The further verses indicate that a metallic object eventually landed

on earth, leading to earthquakes and disturbances in the oceans.

Names of twenty-eight (?) kings, who were recipients of the original

sword in succession, are listed, starting from Manu the first king.

This list ends with Krpa, the teacher of Pandavas and Kauravas. The

above myths of MB are all similar in indicating that a long time

before the MB period, a strange fire was observed in the sky. It may

be surmised that, this event could have been variously interpreted by

different groups of people. As MB passed through many bards,

differing traditions of Kartikeya, might have found their place in

the epic. In any case, a celestial light or object (nova or comet)

associated with Pleiades, should have given rise to all further

descriptions. It is probable that this was followed (not necessarily

immediately) by a meteoritic impact or shower, seen to be originating

from a near by region (Taurus) of the sky, affecting the `Madhya-

desha' leading to a famine.

MB in the Adiparvan equates kumara, agniputra, Kartikeya with

SharavNabhava and unambiguously he was born to Krittikas.

agneh putrah kumarastu sriman saravanalayah|

krttikabhyupapattesca kartikeya iti smrtah|

 

Location of SharvaNa is forgotten (?) by the main stream , may be

because of destruction and subsequent emigration. (But Ptolemy lists

Sarabana in his Indika as being somewhere in North-Gujarat.)

Vedic literature does not contradict the above. See Rigveda,

" The beloved (Agni), strong, rich in food, rests in the brilliant

(sun); secondly, in the seven auspicious mothers.Then also entered he

the Mothers, and in them pure and uninjured he increased in

magnitude. " (I. 141.2;5)

 

" The Sisters Seven, the Mothers, stand around the Babe, the noble,

new-born Infant,.. " (IX. 86.36) " He, calling loudly to the Seven red

Sisters, hath, skilled in sweet drink, brought them to be looked on.

He, born of old, in middle air hath halted, and sought and found the

covering robe of Pusan " . (X.5.5)

The time of this event can be fixed up referring to Shatapatha

Brahmana, where Agni is said to be in the Krittikas which do not move

away from the East.(II.1.2) Sh. Br. provides evidence that the

Agnyadhana ritual was based on such an observation. The time

determination is well discussed by SB Dikshit, Lokamanya Tilak,

Parpola and others. The epoch we get is around 3000-2700B.C.

 

Why Skanda became ShaNmukha?

This is evidently a later development. ShaNmukha AFAIK is not

mentioned in MB and in the Vedic Samhitas. But, Krittikas being Six

in number appears in the EkagnikAnDa of Yajurveda, which is different

from the stand of RV where the mothers of Agni were seven. Sh. Br.

Indirectly accepts the number seven since Krittikas were the wives of

Seven Sages. By the time of YV-Ekagni, one of the stars of Pleiades

had dimmed out making Krittikas to be enumerated as six. But Skanda

coming out of Krittika could not be forgotten or questioned. Hence he

was given another name ShaNmukha. This gave impetus to edit the older

PuraaNas!

 

Regards

 

RN Iyengar

 

 

hinducivilization , " amshuman_k "

<amshuman_k@> wrote:

>

> hinducivilization , " rajita_rajvasishth "

> <rajita_rajvasishth@> wrote:

> >

> > This article by my friend might interest some forum members. It is

> > interesting that the deity Skanda who was once popular is hardly

known

> > or worshiped today. I wonder what caused his decline. >

>

> There are numerous astronomical motifs in the skanda mythology

(though

> not all pieces may point to astronomical motifs)

> 1. Skanda being son of Krittika -

> Krittika or the constellation Pleiades is the clinching evidence.

> 2. Being son of agni or rudra -

> Agni is the deity associated with the Krittika constellation

> (nakshatra sukta in taittiriya brAhmaNa immediately comes to mind).

> Rudra being a form of agni is a very old motif -- after all, the

most

> famous shatarudrIya (rudram in popular parlance) is intended for

> pacification of agni during agnichayana.

> 3. Being son of gangA -

> Denotes milky way

>

> Some questionable associations -

> 4. Skanda's spear = orion ?

> 5. In old sutra literature he is associated with his twin brother

> viShAkha -

> Echo of ashwins??

>

 

--- End forwarded message ---

[Guest guest]

Dear Sreenadh-ji,

 

The posts are valuable.

 

But so many good posts in a single day ..?

 

It will be difficult to concentrate and digest. May be at

a slower pace for dim-witted persons like me ?

 

My view only.

 

regards

 

Chakraborty

 

 

 

On Behalf Of sreesogTuesday, November 17, 2009 3:41 PM Subject: Fwd: Re: Origin of skanda

hinducivilization , "Vedaprakash" <vedamvedaprakash wrote:Origin of SkandaI have carefully gone through the posting, but it contains many biasedexpressions, unhistorical statements and thus leading to wrongconclusions as pointed out below:It is interesting that the deity Skanda who was once popular ishardly known or worshiped today – This is totally wrong. Either youor your friend does not know what has been going on in the world. TheSkanda-Muruga-Karttikeya worship has been more than 2000 or 3000 YBPprevalent practice and continues even today not only in India but alsoin SEA countries. Even every temple in USA, UK or elsewhere, if I amcorrect, should have one Vigraha of Him..I wonder what caused his decline – none, but people like us. Forexample, you make such statements, that too as, Professor orProfessional, immediately, the vested group quote this as basis fortheir wonderful paper and conduct fantastic seminar and conference andcontinue their historical gimmicks.However, on the other hand his brother Ganesha has grown inpopularity though he came a bit later than Skanda – No, as pointedout.maruts as "para-skanda" and other elements of their mythology -Many deities undergo drastic changes when they move across theveda-purANa transition: Some lose status: e.g. indra; others lose statusand change character e.g. varuNa; others rise to exalted heights e.g.viShNu and rudra. But their mythology is still rooted in large part intheir vedic antecedents – these are westernized hypotheses andtheories. The study of Skanda-Karttikeya-Muruga has to be done inconsonance with Sangam literature. Otherwise, the exclusiveinterpretation would lead to such restricted or westernized hypotheses.The marut-s are one of the most important deities of the veda-s,praised by all clans of R^iShi-s in various hymns and rituals. But themaruts not only fade away greatly, they but also undergo a drastic shiftin mythology. In the purANa-s the marut-s are minor deities and areactually called sons of the mother demoness diti, whose fetus indra cutup into seven pieces - This has significance in the context, as it isconnected with "Shanmuga".1) skanda and maruts are sons of rudra skanda is also termed the sonof agni. rudra and agni are closely associated in the veda-- if twodistinct deities are ever strongly identified with each other in theveda, agni and rudra form that pair- possible and it has to becorrelated with the Tamil tradition.In at least 2 mantras agni is said to have fathered the maruts: RV1.71.8 and 6.3.8. In the shatapata brAhmaNa one of the manifestation ofagni as rudra is termed kumAra (an epithet of skanda) – Thechanging Devatas or Vahanas have been mere change in expressions ofmantras or otherwise has to be studied. As all such names cannot beequated to present a mosaic picture.2) skanda's mother is a river (ga~NgA) and the maruts are describedas having a river for their mother (e.g. "sindhu-mAtaraH" RV 10.78.6)– This tallies with the birth as per Skandapurana and Tamilliterature.The other details are well known. Kindly check up with researchpapers appearing in http://www.murga.org <http://www.murga.org/> ,http://murugan.org/research/index.htm<http://murugan.org/research/index.htm> ,http://xlweb.com/heritage/murukan/ <http://xlweb.com/heritage/murukan/>. Etc.If we go farther afield in the Indo-European world we encounter twoskanda-like deities: Ares of the Greeks and Mars (*Martis as in DioMarti - god Mars) of the Romans. skanda and these deities share someiconographic similarity: depicted as vigorous youths and holding a spearin hand. ………………………….This myth appears to be a paralogousversion of the kumara cycle -- Mars is born from drops of shiva'stear/sweat falling to theearth and his iconographic characteristics aredescribed as similar to those of skanda. While there is a prevalent viewthat the word Mars had an Etruscan origin, this is erroneous because ofthe homology of the deities Ares and Mars (the Greeks had no Etruscancontact). In this regard the early Indologists Kühn and Müllerwere correct in astute observing that Martis, Ares (0-grade) and marutare likely to be derived from the same ancestral Indo-European root.Thus, these deities were derived from a common ancestral deity presenteven in the early Indo-European period. This interesting. Can yourfriend give any astronomical interpretation to this. What would be thedating assigned to such phenomenon? The Six-headed Skanda sculpture isfound even in China in the Buddhist caves.We note that skanda preserves some primitive features with Martisand Ares the cognates from other other IE cultures, but has specificsimilarities with the vedic maruts…………. Some Indologists ofperverse understanding might push them to the historical Kushana-s. Thisview is incorrect, for skanda's presence definitely preceded the comingof Kushana-s among the Indians as suggested by numerous early texts. Thesix-headed Karttikeya coins pose challenge to historians, numismatists,and other scholars. The researchers have to consider the possibility ofthe spread of Skanda-Karttikeya worship phenomenon from the South tonorth and its spread to north-west, Greece etc., as such view wouldperhaps solve the chronological puzzles.Instead, we suspect that this people were associated with the latevedic period, and probably corresponded to the "pANDava-s" of thebhArata who inserted themselves into kuru pa~nchAla realm.hinducivilization , "rajita_rajvasishth"<rajita_rajvasishth@> wrote:>> This article by my friend might interest some forum members. It is> interesting that the deity Skanda who was once popular is hardly known> or worshiped today. I wonder what caused his decline. However, on the> other hand his brother Ganesha has grown in popularity though he came> a bit later than Skanda.>> *****>> maruts as "para-skanda" and other elements of their mythology>> Many deities undergo drastic changes when they move across the> veda-purANa transition: Some lose status: e.g. indra; others lose> status and change character e.g. varuNa; others rise to exalted> heights e.g. viShNu and rudra. But their mythology is still rooted in> large part in their vedic antecedents. The marut-s are one of the most> important deities of the veda-s, praised by all clans of R^iShi-s in> various hymns and rituals. But the maruts not only fade away greatly,> they but also undergo a drastic shift in mythology. In the purANa-s> the marut-s are minor deities and are actually called sons of the> mother demoness diti, whose fetus indra cut up into seven pieces.> Perhaps, this is a misinterpretation of the vedic term sudAnava> (good-giver) as su-dAnava (the good demon). The maruts are reduced to> mere winds in classical Sanskrit, often used in singular as a synonym> of vAyu, a very different vedic deity. This synonymy is seen right> from the rAmAyaNa, where hanumAn, while inheriting many features of> the vedic maruts, is described as the son of vAyu/marut. As result of> this, the maruts are thoroughly misunderstood by the common Hindu and> their true nature remains shrouded. One point, while apparently rather> obvious, is quite completely ignored by most students of the veda and> mythology as far as I can see (The learned vaishya Prithvi Kumar> Agrawala being a possible exception): this is the relationship of> marut-s with skanda. Hence, I have decided to briefly outline theobvious:>> 1) skanda and maruts are sons of rudra> skanda is also termed the son of agni. rudra and agni are closely> associated in the veda-- if two distinct deities are ever strongly> identified with each other in the veda, agni and rudra form that pair.> In at least 2 mantras agni is said to have fathered the maruts: RV> 1.71.8 and 6.3.8. In the shatapata brAhmaNa one of the manifestation> of agni as rudra is termed kumAra (an epithet of skanda).> 2) skanda's mother is a river (ga~NgA) and the maruts are described as> having a river for their mother (e.g. "sindhu-mAtaraH" RV 10.78.6).> 3) skanda is described as being born as six distinct but identical> children and united to form one body with six heads. The maruts are> described as being all of the same age and identical to each other. In> different mantras in the RV and AV they are described a many> individuals united together (RV 8.20.1/21, AV13.4.8). skanda also> preserves a degree of his multiplicity by existing with his> identically formed brothers shAkha, vishAkha and nejamesha.> 4) The youthfulness of skanda is emphasized: he described as being a> playful child or a youth (bAla or kumAra). The maruts are also> described as young playful children (shishu in RV 10.78.6; 7.56.16).> Incidentally the term shishu is used in one of the earliest versions> of the kumara story to describe an emanation of skanda (MBH 3.227 in> Vulgate).> 5) The primary weapon of skanda is the spear (shakti is the preferred> epic term) and he is also depicted with a vajra. The primary weapon of> the maruts is the spear (the preferred vedic term is R^iShTi) and they> also use the lighting (vidyut) or vajra. Both skanda and the maruts> are also occasionally depicted as archers.> 6) Both skanda and the maruts are war gods par excellence. skanda is> the victorious commander of the deva army, and the lord of shardhas,> pArShadA-s or gaNas. The maruts are the one set of deities most> commonly termed as gaNa-s/shardha, and in the veda are the> constituents as well as leaders of the deva senA, leading it to a> demolishing victory (RV 10.103.8 "devasen & #257;n & #257;mabhi-bhañjat & #299;n & #257;m> jáyant & #299;n & #257;m marúto yantu ágram").> 7) skanda shatters the krau~ncha mountain with his spear and splinters> the peaks of the shveta parvata by striking it with his deadly mace> (MBH 3.224 in Vulgate). The maruts are frequently described as> shattering mountains in their fury (RV 1.85.10 "chid-bibidhur vi> parvataM" or RV 5.52.9 "ádrim bhindanti ójasA")> 8) skanda is described as born atop a mountain and seated atop a hill> shortly after his birth (e.g. MBH 3.224 in Vulgate). The marut-s are> also described as born on a mountain ("girijAH" RV 5.87.1) and> dwelling atop a mountain ("mArutaM gaNaM giriShTAM" RV 8.94.12)> 9) The maruts as archetypal "storm gods" are associated with roaring> noises of thunder -- their roars are said to terrify the denizens of> the worlds. They are also described as making loud noises by blowing> on organs termed vANa-s and bhR^imi-s ("dhamanto vANaM" RV 1.85. 10,> "bhR^imim dhamanto" RV 2.34.1) . In the earliest version of the> kaumAra myth a comparable aspect of skanda is described. He is> mentioned as making a loud noise like a mass of thunder clouds, and> repeatedly roaring and yelling terrifying war cries that frightened> everyone. He is also mentioned blowing into a conch and making a> frightful noise (MBH 3.224 in Vulgate).> 10)The marut-s brightness is repeatedly mentioned and they are> compared with agni in multiple places, and also said to be bright as> the sun (svabhAnavaH, RV 1.37.2). They are also described as being> bright like the lightning (ahi-bhAnavaH: snake-light=lightning or> vidyut RV 1.172.1, 5.54.2). vidyut in the RV is mainly used as an> epithet of the marut-s. This aspect is particularly highlighted in the> early version of the skanda cycle where he is described as being> bright as the sun, and agni (MBH 3.226, also 9.46). Specifically, he> is also described as being like flashes of lightning from a mass of> ruddy clouds (MBH3.224).> 11) skanda is closely associated with indra, and is even described as> his son-in-law marrying his daugther deva-senA, and skanda calls> himself a servant of indra in the earliest version of the kaumara myth> (MBH 3.228). In the veda, maruts are the closest companions of indra.> 12) kumAra can be roguish (hence called dhUrta) and cause harm and> disease with his agents. The maruts likewise can cause harm (RV> 1.39.8, 1.171.1, 7.58.5) and are invoked to keep harm away.> 13) The relatively infrequent verbal root skand, from which skanda is> derived, the RV occurs in connection with the marut-s as "skandanti"> (RV 5.52.3).> 14) The marut-s are described as having a common wife, the goddess> rodasI of the veda. In the earliest kaumara rituals associated with> the atharvanic tradition, skanda is described as having a common wife> with his brothers.>> The final, very significant element of this connection comes from a> conversation between rudra and skanda in the oldest version of the> kaumAra myth (MBH 3.230 in Vulgate):> athaabravIn mahAsenaM mahAdevo bR^ihad vachaH | saptamaM mAruta> skandhaM rakShanityam-atandritaH ||> And then mahAdeva said these weighty words to mahAsena: "You must> watchfully command the seven-fold troops of maruts.">> skandovAcha: saptamaM mAruta skandhaM pAlayiShyAmy-ahaM prabho|> yad-anyad-api me kAryam deva tad-vada mAchiraM ||> skanda replied, "Very well, my lord! I shall command the seven-fold> marut troops. Now tell me quickly if there is any other task of the> devas to be done.">> Hence, at least in the earliest kaumAra cycle, kArttikeya was> specifically seen as the leader of the seven-fold marut troops (7 fold> as described in the RV: sapta me sapta & #347; & #257;kina; RV 5.52.17).>> Thus, we see that there are many specific similarities between the> later deity skanda and the maruts suggesting an evolutionary> relationship between the two. However, unlike brahmA and prajapati,> the marut-skanda connection is not ancestor-descendent. They appear to> exist as paralogs, with the marut-s under going degeneration and a> functional shift. How do we explain this?> To answer this we take a detour:> If we go farther afield in the Indo-European world we encounter two> skanda-like deities: Ares of the Greeks and Mars (*Martis as in Dio> Marti - god Mars) of the Romans. skanda and these deities share some> iconographic similarity: depicted as vigorous youths and holding a> spear in hand. One could object that these are generic features of war> gods, but they do have deeper connections between them. As per the> tradition of the AshvalAyana-s the graha-s are associated with> pratyadhi-devatA-s and the pratyadhi-devatA for maNgala (Mars) is> skanda. Further, the shiva purANa preserves a tale that occurs just> before the kumAra sambhava section that describes the birth of maNgala> (Mars) as a son of shiva (SP 3.10, rudreshvara saMhitA, pArvati> kANDa). This myth appears to be a paralogous version of the kumAra> cycle -- Mars is born from drops of shiva's tear/sweat falling to the> earth and his iconographic characteristics are described as similar to> those of skanda. While there is a prevalent view that the word Mars> had an Etruscan origin, this is erroneous because of the homology of> the deities Ares and Mars (the Greeks had no Etruscan contact). In> this regard the early Indologists Kühn and Müller were correctin> astute observing that Martis, Ares (0-grade) and marut are likely to> be derived from the same ancestral Indo-European root. Thus, these> deities were derived from a common ancestral deity present even in the> early Indo-European period.>> We note that skanda preserves some primitive features with Martis and> Ares the cognates from other other IE cultures, but has specific> similarities with the vedic maruts. Hence, we argue that skanda did> not directly descend from the maruts in the late vedic period, but was> a homolog of the maruts in a para-vedic culture. This para-vedic> culture merged with the Hindu mainstream in the late vedic period, and> thus brought in skanda as a paralog of the maruts in the Hindu world.> We also suspect that in this para-vedic culture the maruts were mainly> winds and this induced the trivialization of the vedic maruts in the> epic/paurANic period. Who were these para-vedic people? Some> Indologists of perverse understanding might push them to the> historical Kushana-s. This view is incorrect, for skanda's presence> definitely preceded the coming of Kushana-s among the Indians as> suggested by numerous early texts. Instead, we suspect that this> people were associated with the late vedic period, and probably> corresponded to the "pANDava-s" of the bhArata who inserted themselves> into kuru-pa~nchAla realm.>--- End forwarded message ---This Message was sent from Indian Oil Messaging Gateway, New Delhi, India. The information contained in this electronic message and any attachments to this message are intended for the exclusive use of the addressee(s) and may contain proprietary, confidential or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately and destroy all copies of this message and any attachments.

[Guest guest]

Dear Chakraborty ji,

//> But so many good posts in a single day ..?//

It just happened that - it happened to be the day I searched for good and

astrology related posts in hinducivilization group. I just felt like sharing

here some things I found there that is in tune with our taste.

Love and regards,

Sreenadh

 

, " Chakraborty, PL "

<CHAKRABORTYP2 wrote:

>

> Dear Sreenadh-ji,

>

> The posts are valuable.

>

> But so many good posts in a single day ..?

>

> It will be difficult to concentrate and digest. May be at

> a slower pace for dim-witted persons like me ?

>

> My view only.

>

> regards

>

> Chakraborty