[VRI] The Views of Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet

[Guest guest]

Dear friends.

 

The Kaushitaki Brahmana (19.2) clearly states that the Winter Solstice was on

the Magha New-Moon.  The seasonal month " Tapas " obviously started from that day

and the Mahashivaratri also fell on the Magha NewMoon day. So the people like

jyotirved and Darshaney, who advocate celebration of festivals according to the

Seasonal calendar has to observe the Mahashivaratri on the seasonal month of

Tapas. Jyotirved is foolishly thinking the month of Magha to be a seasonal

month.  The argument is clear and Simple. The Month of Magha is related to the

Magha Nakshatra.  For example, the Purnimanta Magha month ends in the Purnima

on the Magha Nakshatra.

 

Of course the people, like me,  who follow the Sidereal calendar can observe

the Mahashivaratri in the fullmoon day of the sidereal month of Magha.

 

Jyotirved is confused and may be his memory is also playing tricks with him. My

memory did not fail me. It fails every time in Jyotirved only. He has not told

us uptill now where he found the mention of the " Makara Rekha " in the Ancient

Indian shastras. I assure Jyotirved that I shall not forget his this bluff. His

convenient acceptance of some editor's personal remark that the Rashi verse in

the Vedanga Jyotisha could be interpolated as the Vedavakya, speaks of his lost

balance of mind.  Some Tom, Dinesh (Dick) and Hatim (Harry) asserts something

and that becomes the GospelTtruth for Jyotirved and the poor members of these

fora receive mails from such unscrupulous people. As regards the  Precession

versus Uttarayana  Jyotirved should read the ancient Indian texts to see the

Equinoxes and Solstices occurring in different Nakshatras at different times.

 

Regards

 

Sunil K. Bhattacharjya

 

 

 

--- On Sun, 11/22/09, jyotirved <jyotirved wrote:

 

jyotirved <jyotirved

[VRI] Re: The Views of Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet

 

Cc: hinducalendar , vedic_research_institute ,

" 'subash razdan' "

<subashrazdan

Sunday, November 22, 2009, 12:53 AM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Shri Sunil Bhattacharjyaji,

 

Jai Shri Ram!

 

< In the Brahmana of the Veda we find that at one time

the Mahashivaratri fell on the start of the Uttarayana, ie. on the first day of

the seasonal month of Tapas>

 

You are again requested to please give the exact references,

quoting the exact relevant mantras with their translation.  You have already

been requested several times for this information, but you are dodging the

question again and again.  Could it be that your memory is not serving you

properly here also, just as it did not serve you in case of INSA edition of the

VJ regarding the rashi mantra, that it had termed as noting but spurious or

your confusing Chaukhamba edition of Yogavasishtha as Gita Press edition!

 

 

 

<Darshaneyji, in spite of his good intentions proposed

that in 2010 it should be celebrated in 12 tapasya, which defies all logic.>

 

As per Shiva Mahapurana and Linga Purana etc., Maha

Shivaratri is to be celebrated on nisheetha vyapini chaturdashi of Magha (Gauna

Phallguna) Krishna paksha.  Magha Shukla Paksha starts with the first New Moon

after Uttarayana, and that is on January 16, 2010.  Magha  (Gauna Phalguna)

Krishna

Paksha starts on January 31, 2010.  Accordingly, nisheetha vyapini chaturdashi

is on 12th of February, 2010, which corresponds to 23rd of Tapasya, and not

12th of Tapasya, as erroneously (some memory problem again?!) pointed out by

you!  So the Tithi_patrak of Shri Darshaney Lokesh  showing Mahashivaratri on

February 12, 2010 is quite correct!

 

 

 

Perhaps it may be news to you that in 2010, even

Lahiri-walas (including you!) will celebrate Mahashivaratri    on February 12

which is 23rd of Tapasya!  Why don't you muster some courage to castigate your

fellow Lahiriwalas and admonish them from celebrating Mahasivaratri after two

months of Utarayana, i.e. Winter Solstice Day, when it should be celebrated

according to you.

 

Regarding precession vis-a-vis, Uttarayana, I suggest you

read some books on astronomy and then only enter into discussion on such topics

as otherwise it is just a wastage of time.

 

Jai Shri Ram!

 

A K Kaul

 

, Sunil Bhattacharjya

<sunil_bhattacharjya wrote:

 

>  

 

> Shri Harimallaji,

 

>

 

> 1)

 

> Uttarayana means the period of six month of the

northern course of the Sun.  The Makar Sankranti is observed in Uttarayana

even now though the start of the Uttarayana is before the Makar sankranti.

During the period of Vedanga Jyotisha the Uttarayana started in the first haif

of the Dhanistha Nakshatra ie. it occurred in the end of the Makar Rashi. Thus

at  that time the Makar Sankramana occurred before the start of the

Uttarayana. Once explained a school boy will understand this and I hope this

will not be difficult for you to understand.

 

> 2)

 

> We don't have to shift anything. We have only to

recognise what is what. Now the Uttarayana starts when the Sun is in the Dhanu

Rashi, ie. before the Makar Sankranti. In Varahamihira' s time the Uttarayana

started in the beginning of the Makar Rashi. Ask any astronomer and he will

confirm this. Varahamihira did not have to change anything except changing the

mindset of the (intellectually) blind people.

 

> 3)

 

> In the Brahmana of the Veda we find that at one time

the Mahashivaratri fell on the start of the Uttarayana, ie. on the first day of

the seasonal month of Tapas (and the astronomers will tell you that this

time 

period was in the third millennium BCE). These days it does not fall on the day

of the start of Uttarayana. Ask the schoolboy (whom if you explain the above

concept of Uttarayana) and he will tell you that in the Vedic reference the

calendar followed for the Mahashivaratri was the Sidereal calendar and not the

Seasonal calendar. Darshaneyji, in spite of his good intentions prposed that in

2010 it should be celebrated in 12 tapasya, which defies all logic. It is

neither according the Seasonal calendar nor according to the Sidereal calendar.

If he strictly follows the Seasonal calendar then he should ask people to

celebrate the Mahashivaratri on the Winter solstice day by quoting the 

precedence in the Veda. Hope this will not be difficult for

 

>  you to undertand this.

 

>

 

> You profess to be so knowledgeable so are you

pretending not to understand all these? If so please do not pretend and do not

continue this unnnecessary mails so that the Jyotishis do not get disturbed in

their main task of jyotish-discussions .  I hope you do not like to make

unsubstantiated statements like Shri Kaul, who short-sightaedy does all that

just trying to win an argument.

 

>

 

> Sincerely,

 

>

 

> Sunil K. Bhattacharjya

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> --- On Sat, 11/21/09, hari <harimalla@.. .> wrote:

 

>

 

> hari <harimalla@.. .>

 

> Re: The Views of Patrizia

Norelli-Bachelet

 

>

 

> Saturday, November 21, 2009, 12:35 AM

 

>

 

> Dear Bhatachryaji,

 

>

 

> Can you please explain what is meant by 'utttayan

occurs when sun is in dhanistha or sun is in makar sanrkanti' at different

times of our history.If they could be separated what was the necessity to shift

the nirayan utttaryan from sun in dhanistha to sun in makar sankranti. If

acoording to you indepeendant existaence of the two was OK, we could have as

well continued with sun in dhanistha position of uttrayan even today. Why do

you think they shifted it to makar sankranti as mentioned by Barhamihir.What

was the need if your independant theory of sayan and nirayan was acceptable.

 

>

 

> Please note that nowadays Shiva ratri is not linked

with winter solstice at all.That may have been an old concept which has no

bearing today. At present Shivaratri is at the mid point between winter

solstice,which is Poush purnima(designated by start of maagha snana) and spring

equinox which is Chaitra purnima (designated by Vaisakh snana).

 

>

 

> If you think coupling of the sayan and the nirayan

concepts are not needed then please explain why  Vedanga jyotish had to

coordinate the sun in dhanistha position, uttarayan and also maagha sukla

pratipada together into one by thesixth sloka.Thus to be Vedic we have to

coordinate sayan sankranti, nirayan sankranti and the lunar tithi 

together.Thanks.

 

>

 

> Hari Malla

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> , Sunil

Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote:

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear friends.The Kaushitaki Brahmana (19.2) clearly states that the Winter Solstice was on the Magha New-Moon. The seasonal month "Tapas" obviously started from that day and the Mahashivaratri also fell on the Magha NewMoon day. So the people like jyotirved and Darshaney, who advocate celebration of festivals according to the Seasonal calendar has to observe the Mahashivaratri on the seasonal month of Tapas. Jyotirved is foolishly thinking the month of Magha to be a seasonal month. The argument is clear and Simple. The Month of Magha is related to the Magha Nakshatra. For example, the Purnimanta Magha month ends in the Purnima on the Magha Nakshatra. Of course the people, like me, who follow the Sidereal calendar can observe the Mahashivaratri in the fullmoon day of the sidereal month of

Magha.Jyotirved is confused and may be his memory is also playing tricks with him. My memory did not fail me. It fails every time in Jyotirved only. He has not told us uptill now where he found the mention of the "Makara Rekha" in the Ancient Indian shastras. I assure Jyotirved that I shall not forget his this bluff. His convenient acceptance of some editor's personal remark that the Rashi verse in the Vedanga Jyotisha could be interpolated as the Vedavakya, speaks of his lost balance of mind. Some Tom, Dinesh (Dick) and Hatim (Harry) asserts something and that becomes the GospelTtruth for Jyotirved and the poor members of these fora receive mails from such unscrupulous people. As regards the Precession versus Uttarayana Jyotirved should read the ancient Indian texts to see the Equinoxes and Solstices occurring in different Nakshatras at different times.RegardsSunil K. Bhattacharjya--- On Sun,

11/22/09, jyotirved <jyotirved wrote:jyotirved <jyotirved[VRI] Re: The Views of Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet Cc: hinducalendar , vedic_research_institute , "'subash razdan'"

<subashrazdanSunday, November 22, 2009, 12:53 AM

 

 

 

 

Shri Sunil Bhattacharjyaji, Jai Shri Ram! < In the Brahmana of the Veda we find that at one time

the Mahashivaratri fell on the start of the Uttarayana, ie. on the first day of

the seasonal month of Tapas> You are again requested to please give the exact references,

quoting the exact relevant mantras with their translation. You have already

been requested several times for this information, but you are dodging the

question again and again. Could it be that your memory is not serving you

properly here also, just as it did not serve you in case of INSA edition of the

VJ regarding the rashi mantra, that it had termed as noting but spurious or

your confusing Chaukhamba edition of Yogavasishtha as Gita Press edition! <Darshaneyji, in spite of his good intentions proposed

that in 2010 it should be celebrated in 12 tapasya, which defies all logic.> As per Shiva Mahapurana and Linga Purana etc., Maha

Shivaratri is to be celebrated on nisheetha vyapini chaturdashi of Magha (Gauna

Phallguna) Krishna paksha. Magha Shukla Paksha starts with the first New Moon

after Uttarayana, and that is on January 16, 2010. Magha (Gauna Phalguna) Krishna

Paksha starts on January 31, 2010. Accordingly, nisheetha vyapini chaturdashi

is on 12th of February, 2010, which corresponds to 23rd of Tapasya, and not

12th of Tapasya, as erroneously (some memory problem again?!) pointed out by

you! So the Tithi_patrak of Shri Darshaney Lokesh showing Mahashivaratri on

February 12, 2010 is quite correct! Perhaps it may be news to you that in 2010, even

Lahiri-walas (including you!) will celebrate Mahashivaratri on February 12

which is 23rd of Tapasya! Why don't you muster some courage to castigate your

fellow Lahiriwalas and admonish them from celebrating Mahasivaratri after two

months of Utarayana, i.e. Winter Solstice Day, when it should be celebrated

according to you. Regarding precession vis-a-vis, Uttarayana, I suggest you

read some books on astronomy and then only enter into discussion on such topics

as otherwise it is just a wastage of time. Jai Shri Ram! A K Kaul , Sunil Bhattacharjya

<sunil_bhattacharjya wrote: > > Shri Harimallaji, > > 1) > Uttarayana means the period of six month of the

northern course of the Sun. The Makar Sankranti is observed in Uttarayana

even now though the start of the Uttarayana is before the Makar sankranti.

During the period of Vedanga Jyotisha the Uttarayana started in the first haif

of the Dhanistha Nakshatra ie. it occurred in the end of the Makar Rashi. Thus

at that time the Makar Sankramana occurred before the start of the

Uttarayana. Once explained a school boy will understand this and I hope this

will not be difficult for you to understand. > 2) > We don't have to shift anything. We have only to

recognise what is what. Now the Uttarayana starts when the Sun is in the Dhanu

Rashi, ie. before the Makar Sankranti. In Varahamihira' s time the Uttarayana

started in the beginning of the Makar Rashi. Ask any astronomer and he will

confirm this. Varahamihira did not have to change anything except changing the

mindset of the (intellectually) blind people. > 3) > In the Brahmana of the Veda we find that at one time

the Mahashivaratri fell on the start of the Uttarayana, ie. on the first day of

the seasonal month of Tapas (and the astronomers will tell you that this timeÂ

period was in the third millennium BCE). These days it does not fall on the day

of the start of Uttarayana. Ask the schoolboy (whom if you explain the above

concept of Uttarayana) and he will tell you that in the Vedic reference the

calendar followed for the Mahashivaratri was the Sidereal calendar and not the

Seasonal calendar. Darshaneyji, in spite of his good intentions prposed that in

2010 it should be celebrated in 12 tapasya, which defies all logic. It is

neither according the Seasonal calendar nor according to the Sidereal calendar.

If he strictly follows the Seasonal calendar then he should ask people to

celebrate the Mahashivaratri on the Winter solstice day by quoting theÂ

precedence in the Veda. Hope this will not be difficult for > you to undertand this. > > You profess to be so knowledgeable so are you

pretending not to understand all these? If so please do not pretend and do not

continue this unnnecessary mails so that the Jyotishis do not get disturbed in

their main task of jyotish-discussions . I hope you do not like to make

unsubstantiated statements like Shri Kaul, who short-sightaedy does all that

just trying to win an argument. > > Sincerely, > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > --- On Sat, 11/21/09, hari <harimalla@.. .> wrote: > > hari <harimalla@.. .> > Re: The Views of Patrizia

Norelli-Bachelet > > Saturday, November 21, 2009, 12:35 AM > > Dear Bhatachryaji, > > Can you please explain what is meant by 'utttayan

occurs when sun is in dhanistha or sun is in makar sanrkanti' at different

times of our history.If they could be separated what was the necessity to shift

the nirayan utttaryan from sun in dhanistha to sun in makar sankranti. If

acoording to you indepeendant existaence of the two was OK, we could have as

well continued with sun in dhanistha position of uttrayan even today. Why do

you think they shifted it to makar sankranti as mentioned by Barhamihir.What

was the need if your independant theory of sayan and nirayan was acceptable. > > Please note that nowadays Shiva ratri is not linked

with winter solstice at all.That may have been an old concept which has no

bearing today. At present Shivaratri is at the mid point between winter

solstice,which is Poush purnima(designated by start of maagha snana) and spring

equinox which is Chaitra purnima (designated by Vaisakh snana). > > If you think coupling of the sayan and the nirayan

concepts are not needed then please explain why Vedanga jyotish had to

coordinate the sun in dhanistha position, uttarayan and also maagha sukla

pratipada together into one by thesixth sloka.Thus to be Vedic we have to

coordinate sayan sankranti, nirayan sankranti and the lunar tithi

together.Thanks. > > Hari Malla > > > > , Sunil

Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote: > > > >