Guest guest Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 Dear All, Today I was going through the Sutramritam Blog of our dear Shanmukha ji at:http://sutramritam.blogspot.com/2009/09/chara-dasa-update.html The following comment attracted my attention. I had a hearty lagh. And so sharing the same with you all here. Love and regards, Sreenadh ====================================== A Parampara Dasa in the name of Lord Vishnu: ----------- Next, the points are differing from a popular dasa in the name of Lord Vishnu as advocated by a Parampara. Let us call it ND. I discuss this only for academic purpose and I intend neither controversy intended nor defaming them. The Paramapara unfortunately never discusses any standard Jaimini commentary in their possession, nor quote them in their articles. One self claimed scholar of that Parampara even writes that the students of the parampara not necessarily read the ancient commentaries since their Gurudev has already done that and tested them. He opines that reading other texts is Rajasic and perhaps reading the books of their Gurudev works is Sattvic and sufficient for them. One day, I was informed by one scholar of the Parampara that their Parampara recognizes another Navamsa in the name of Somanatha Navamsa. I requested the scholar to produce the relevant verse that gives the variation and he admitted he didn't bother to learn about the source. So nice of him to admit. When I offered him that the available, IMHO corrupted, verse of Somanatha, he never turned up to discuss and they run a scholar program in the name of Sage Jaimini. Sometime later, I requested another scholar of the same parampara about the source of Somanatha Navamsa that their Parampara recently introduced in their secret teachings. That scholar informed me that the name derived as Somanatha since the ancestors of the Parampara were migrated from Gujarat and the linkage with Somanatha temple. I can't help myself but knocking my head to the wall. Then, I asked about Somanatha Drekkana, you know, the answer was obvious. The scholar explained that for the very reason it was given by Somanatha. And, the first scholar mentioned above, writes that their Parampara is a living lineage of Jaimini and they fail to understand the source of Somanatha Navamsa and its reckoning. Another scholar of the same parampara warns the students about the Guru Chandala Yoga in the sky (which is not in reality since Jupiter is retro in Capricorn and far away from Rahu) and its effect on Sage Jaimini teachings. ====================================== Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 Dear All, The following is a beautiful comment that appeared in Sutramritam blog (by 'vivek'), for the below write-up. Enjoy! Note: I don't have the email id of 'vivek', otherwise I would have invited him to this group. Love and regards, Sreenadh ========================== Dear shanmukha Guruchandala yoga matter-it was really funny .i am also an active reader of that list. In fact i sent many mails supporting you and refuting the comments of the Guru couples of the organisation but none of them got published understandably. It was nice when i read the basics from their basics as so far they have been kind enough not to corrupt basic astrology.THeir advanced astrology in the name of parampara which employes all the parameters in astrology under the sky to explain a single event makes me forget whatever astrology i have learnt so far from classical texts If you havent read " Crux of Vedic astrology " .please get it from scribd.com for free.In the first few pages you will see how the author has taken an example chart and explained the number of coborns mixing principles of parasara and jaimini emplying argalas and divisional chart.If you read it i bet you will forget Jaimini astrology forever. wish they have a crash course for parasara also by name MPUS so that whole paramparic astrology can be learnt in 2+2 months by all of us. Narasimha ji has now only realised that whatever he was taught is corrupted astrology. when you are free please try to convey the literal translation of shlokas i sent to you with your expert opinion.Thanks vivek ========================== , " sreesog " <sreesog wrote: > > Dear All, > Today I was going through the Sutramritam Blog of our dear Shanmukha ji at:http://sutramritam.blogspot.com/2009/09/chara-dasa-update.html > The following comment attracted my attention. I had a hearty lagh. And so sharing the same with you all here. > Love and regards, > Sreenadh > > ====================================== > A Parampara Dasa in the name of Lord Vishnu: > ----------- > Next, the points are differing from a popular dasa in the name of Lord Vishnu as advocated by a Parampara. Let us call it ND. I discuss this only for academic purpose and I intend neither controversy intended nor defaming them. > The Paramapara unfortunately never discusses any standard Jaimini commentary in their possession, nor quote them in their articles. One self claimed scholar of that Parampara even writes that the students of the parampara not necessarily read the ancient commentaries since their Gurudev has already done that and tested them. He opines that reading other texts is Rajasic and perhaps reading the books of their Gurudev works is Sattvic and sufficient for them. > > One day, I was informed by one scholar of the Parampara that their Parampara recognizes another Navamsa in the name of Somanatha Navamsa. I requested the scholar to produce the relevant verse that gives the variation and he admitted he didn't bother to learn about the source. So nice of him to admit. When I offered him that the available, IMHO corrupted, verse of Somanatha, he never turned up to discuss and they run a scholar program in the name of Sage Jaimini. > > Sometime later, I requested another scholar of the same parampara about the source of Somanatha Navamsa that their Parampara recently introduced in their secret teachings. That scholar informed me that the name derived as Somanatha since the ancestors of the Parampara were migrated from Gujarat and the linkage with Somanatha temple. I can't help myself but knocking my head to the wall. Then, I asked about Somanatha Drekkana, you know, the answer was obvious. The scholar explained that for the very reason it was given by Somanatha. > > And, the first scholar mentioned above, writes that their Parampara is a living lineage of Jaimini and they fail to understand the source of Somanatha Navamsa and its reckoning. Another scholar of the same parampara warns the students about the Guru Chandala Yoga in the sky (which is not in reality since Jupiter is retro in Capricorn and far away from Rahu) and its effect on Sage Jaimini teachings. > ====================================== > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 Dear All, The response given to Vivek by Shanmukha ji (given below) contained a beautiful statement, which echos our sentiments as well. The statement reads - //Remember, we are reconstructing a Science, which is drastically different from the knowledge available in the media (Paper and electronic).// I loved that statement and so sharing it with you all. I would say, Shanmukha ji was 100% correct in that statement! Absolutely! That statement comes from experience, hard-work and sincere research. One who do not have 'sincere direct experience' on such 'reconstruction efforts' CANNOT make such a statement for sure - I bet. I was echoing my mind! With the only difference he is into Jaimini school and I am after Arsha school of astrology. Love and regards, Sreenadh ============================= Dear Vivek, Thanks for your support for the cause of Astrology. I read COVA and that's where I learnt how to apply and how not to apply as well. The case with Sri Narasimha is totally different and time will prove his findings whatever worth. Your sloka has been always in my mind and I will get back to you in a couple of days. Coming to Chara Dasa variations, I have given the original verses and explanation on this blog as well. My strong suggestion to you is not to loose heart. Remember, we are reconstructing a Science, which is drastically different from the knowledge available in the media (Paper and electronic). Can you send me the charts to my mail a I am also experimenting? ============================= , " sreesog " <sreesog wrote: > > Dear All, > The following is a beautiful comment that appeared in Sutramritam blog (by 'vivek'), for the below write-up. Enjoy! > Note: I don't have the email id of 'vivek', otherwise I would have invited him to this group. > Love and regards, > Sreenadh > > ========================== > Dear shanmukha > > Guruchandala yoga matter-it was really funny .i am also an active reader of that list. > > In fact i sent many mails supporting you and refuting the comments of the Guru couples of the organisation but none of them got published understandably. > > It was nice when i read the basics from their basics as so far they have been kind enough not to corrupt basic astrology.THeir advanced astrology in the name of parampara which employes all the parameters in astrology under the sky to explain a single event makes me forget whatever astrology i have learnt so far from classical texts > > If you havent read " Crux of Vedic astrology " .please get it from scribd.com for free.In the first few pages you will see how the author has taken an example chart and explained the number of coborns mixing principles of parasara and jaimini emplying argalas and divisional chart.If you read it i bet you will forget Jaimini astrology forever. > > wish they have a crash course for parasara also by name MPUS so that whole paramparic astrology can be learnt in 2+2 months by all of us. > > Narasimha ji has now only realised that whatever he was taught is corrupted astrology. > > when you are free please try to convey the literal translation of shlokas i sent to you with your expert opinion.Thanks > > vivek > ========================== > > , " sreesog " <sreesog@> wrote: > > > > Dear All, > > Today I was going through the Sutramritam Blog of our dear Shanmukha ji at:http://sutramritam.blogspot.com/2009/09/chara-dasa-update.html > > The following comment attracted my attention. I had a hearty lagh. And so sharing the same with you all here. > > Love and regards, > > Sreenadh > > > > ====================================== > > A Parampara Dasa in the name of Lord Vishnu: > > ----------- > > Next, the points are differing from a popular dasa in the name of Lord Vishnu as advocated by a Parampara. Let us call it ND. I discuss this only for academic purpose and I intend neither controversy intended nor defaming them. > > The Paramapara unfortunately never discusses any standard Jaimini commentary in their possession, nor quote them in their articles. One self claimed scholar of that Parampara even writes that the students of the parampara not necessarily read the ancient commentaries since their Gurudev has already done that and tested them. He opines that reading other texts is Rajasic and perhaps reading the books of their Gurudev works is Sattvic and sufficient for them. > > > > One day, I was informed by one scholar of the Parampara that their Parampara recognizes another Navamsa in the name of Somanatha Navamsa. I requested the scholar to produce the relevant verse that gives the variation and he admitted he didn't bother to learn about the source. So nice of him to admit. When I offered him that the available, IMHO corrupted, verse of Somanatha, he never turned up to discuss and they run a scholar program in the name of Sage Jaimini. > > > > Sometime later, I requested another scholar of the same parampara about the source of Somanatha Navamsa that their Parampara recently introduced in their secret teachings. That scholar informed me that the name derived as Somanatha since the ancestors of the Parampara were migrated from Gujarat and the linkage with Somanatha temple. I can't help myself but knocking my head to the wall. Then, I asked about Somanatha Drekkana, you know, the answer was obvious. The scholar explained that for the very reason it was given by Somanatha. > > > > And, the first scholar mentioned above, writes that their Parampara is a living lineage of Jaimini and they fail to understand the source of Somanatha Navamsa and its reckoning. Another scholar of the same parampara warns the students about the Guru Chandala Yoga in the sky (which is not in reality since Jupiter is retro in Capricorn and far away from Rahu) and its effect on Sage Jaimini teachings. > > ====================================== > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 || Jaya Jaya Jagannatha || Guru Chandala Yoga is funny ???? Please type in the search engine " Guru Chandala Yoga " Then you will read a lot of stuff written by hundreds of astrologers. Many of them are not from the school of Sanjay Rath. ABOUT RAHU : Please Refer Dr. B.V. Ramnn Book " Three Hundred Important Combinations Page 288 " Pisacha Yoga " you might understand the role of RAHU. ( Pisacha means sprits due to the previous birth Karma ) Remember Dr.BVR didn't study nothing from Sanjaji. sarasalai_siva , " sreesog " <sreesog wrote: > > Dear All, > The response given to Vivek by Shanmukha ji (given below) contained a beautiful statement, which echos our sentiments as well. The statement reads - //Remember, we are reconstructing a Science, which is drastically different from the knowledge available in the media (Paper and electronic).// > I loved that statement and so sharing it with you all. I would say, Shanmukha ji was 100% correct in that statement! Absolutely! That statement comes from experience, hard-work and sincere research. One who do not have 'sincere direct experience' on such 'reconstruction efforts' CANNOT make such a statement for sure - I bet. I was echoing my mind! With the only difference he is into Jaimini school and I am after Arsha school of astrology. > Love and regards, > Sreenadh > > ============================= > Dear Vivek, > > Thanks for your support for the cause of Astrology. > > I read COVA and that's where I learnt how to apply and how not to apply as well. > > The case with Sri Narasimha is totally different and time will prove his findings whatever worth. > > Your sloka has been always in my mind and I will get back to you in a couple of days. > > Coming to Chara Dasa variations, I have given the original verses and explanation on this blog as well. My strong suggestion to you is not to loose heart. Remember, we are reconstructing a Science, which is drastically different from the knowledge available in the media (Paper and electronic). > > Can you send me the charts to my mail a I am also experimenting? > ============================= > > , " sreesog " <sreesog@> wrote: > > > > Dear All, > > The following is a beautiful comment that appeared in Sutramritam blog (by 'vivek'), for the below write-up. Enjoy! > > Note: I don't have the email id of 'vivek', otherwise I would have invited him to this group. > > Love and regards, > > Sreenadh > > > > ========================== > > Dear shanmukha > > > > Guruchandala yoga matter-it was really funny .i am also an active reader of that list. > > > > In fact i sent many mails supporting you and refuting the comments of the Guru couples of the organisation but none of them got published understandably. > > > > It was nice when i read the basics from their basics as so far they have been kind enough not to corrupt basic astrology.THeir advanced astrology in the name of parampara which employes all the parameters in astrology under the sky to explain a single event makes me forget whatever astrology i have learnt so far from classical texts > > > > If you havent read " Crux of Vedic astrology " .please get it from scribd.com for free.In the first few pages you will see how the author has taken an example chart and explained the number of coborns mixing principles of parasara and jaimini emplying argalas and divisional chart.If you read it i bet you will forget Jaimini astrology forever. > > > > wish they have a crash course for parasara also by name MPUS so that whole paramparic astrology can be learnt in 2+2 months by all of us. > > > > Narasimha ji has now only realised that whatever he was taught is corrupted astrology. > > > > when you are free please try to convey the literal translation of shlokas i sent to you with your expert opinion.Thanks > > > > vivek > > ========================== > > > > , " sreesog " <sreesog@> wrote: > > > > > > Dear All, > > > Today I was going through the Sutramritam Blog of our dear Shanmukha ji at:http://sutramritam.blogspot.com/2009/09/chara-dasa-update.html > > > The following comment attracted my attention. I had a hearty lagh. And so sharing the same with you all here. > > > Love and regards, > > > Sreenadh > > > > > > ====================================== > > > A Parampara Dasa in the name of Lord Vishnu: > > > ----------- > > > Next, the points are differing from a popular dasa in the name of Lord Vishnu as advocated by a Parampara. Let us call it ND. I discuss this only for academic purpose and I intend neither controversy intended nor defaming them. > > > The Paramapara unfortunately never discusses any standard Jaimini commentary in their possession, nor quote them in their articles. One self claimed scholar of that Parampara even writes that the students of the parampara not necessarily read the ancient commentaries since their Gurudev has already done that and tested them. He opines that reading other texts is Rajasic and perhaps reading the books of their Gurudev works is Sattvic and sufficient for them. > > > > > > One day, I was informed by one scholar of the Parampara that their Parampara recognizes another Navamsa in the name of Somanatha Navamsa. I requested the scholar to produce the relevant verse that gives the variation and he admitted he didn't bother to learn about the source. So nice of him to admit. When I offered him that the available, IMHO corrupted, verse of Somanatha, he never turned up to discuss and they run a scholar program in the name of Sage Jaimini. > > > > > > Sometime later, I requested another scholar of the same parampara about the source of Somanatha Navamsa that their Parampara recently introduced in their secret teachings. That scholar informed me that the name derived as Somanatha since the ancestors of the Parampara were migrated from Gujarat and the linkage with Somanatha temple. I can't help myself but knocking my head to the wall. Then, I asked about Somanatha Drekkana, you know, the answer was obvious. The scholar explained that for the very reason it was given by Somanatha. > > > > > > And, the first scholar mentioned above, writes that their Parampara is a living lineage of Jaimini and they fail to understand the source of Somanatha Navamsa and its reckoning. Another scholar of the same parampara warns the students about the Guru Chandala Yoga in the sky (which is not in reality since Jupiter is retro in Capricorn and far away from Rahu) and its effect on Sage Jaimini teachings. > > > ====================================== > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 Om Namash Sivaya Namaste Sri Sarasalai_Siva, Probably, you didn't understand it. Sri Vivek didn't mean Guru Chandala Yoga is funny. He meant the discussion held on Sohamsa group regarding Guru Chandala yoga happening at that time was funny. He meant the Guru Chandaya Yoga never occured at that time and that it. BTW, it doesn't matter who wrote about it, but the content and its theoritical base and practical utility. Regards, Shanmukha , " sivagnanalingam " <sarasalai_siva wrote: > > > || Jaya Jaya Jagannatha || > > > Guru Chandala Yoga is funny ???? > > Please type in the search engine " Guru Chandala Yoga " > > Then you will read a lot of stuff written by hundreds of astrologers. > > Many of them are not from the school of Sanjay Rath. > > ABOUT RAHU : > > Please Refer Dr. B.V. Ramnn Book " Three Hundred Important Combinations Page 288 " Pisacha Yoga " you might understand the role of RAHU. ( Pisacha means sprits due to the previous birth Karma ) > > > > Remember Dr.BVR didn't study nothing from Sanjaji. > > > sarasalai_siva > > > > > , " sreesog " <sreesog@> wrote: > > > > Dear All, > > The response given to Vivek by Shanmukha ji (given below) contained a beautiful statement, which echos our sentiments as well. The statement reads - //Remember, we are reconstructing a Science, which is drastically different from the knowledge available in the media (Paper and electronic).// > > I loved that statement and so sharing it with you all. I would say, Shanmukha ji was 100% correct in that statement! Absolutely! That statement comes from experience, hard-work and sincere research. One who do not have 'sincere direct experience' on such 'reconstruction efforts' CANNOT make such a statement for sure - I bet. I was echoing my mind! With the only difference he is into Jaimini school and I am after Arsha school of astrology. > > Love and regards, > > Sreenadh > > > > ============================= > > Dear Vivek, > > > > Thanks for your support for the cause of Astrology. > > > > I read COVA and that's where I learnt how to apply and how not to apply as well. > > > > The case with Sri Narasimha is totally different and time will prove his findings whatever worth. > > > > Your sloka has been always in my mind and I will get back to you in a couple of days. > > > > Coming to Chara Dasa variations, I have given the original verses and explanation on this blog as well. My strong suggestion to you is not to loose heart. Remember, we are reconstructing a Science, which is drastically different from the knowledge available in the media (Paper and electronic). > > > > Can you send me the charts to my mail a I am also experimenting? > > ============================= > > > > , " sreesog " <sreesog@> wrote: > > > > > > Dear All, > > > The following is a beautiful comment that appeared in Sutramritam blog (by 'vivek'), for the below write-up. Enjoy! > > > Note: I don't have the email id of 'vivek', otherwise I would have invited him to this group. > > > Love and regards, > > > Sreenadh > > > > > > ========================== > > > Dear shanmukha > > > > > > Guruchandala yoga matter-it was really funny .i am also an active reader of that list. > > > > > > In fact i sent many mails supporting you and refuting the comments of the Guru couples of the organisation but none of them got published understandably. > > > > > > It was nice when i read the basics from their basics as so far they have been kind enough not to corrupt basic astrology.THeir advanced astrology in the name of parampara which employes all the parameters in astrology under the sky to explain a single event makes me forget whatever astrology i have learnt so far from classical texts > > > > > > If you havent read " Crux of Vedic astrology " .please get it from scribd.com for free.In the first few pages you will see how the author has taken an example chart and explained the number of coborns mixing principles of parasara and jaimini emplying argalas and divisional chart.If you read it i bet you will forget Jaimini astrology forever. > > > > > > wish they have a crash course for parasara also by name MPUS so that whole paramparic astrology can be learnt in 2+2 months by all of us. > > > > > > Narasimha ji has now only realised that whatever he was taught is corrupted astrology. > > > > > > when you are free please try to convey the literal translation of shlokas i sent to you with your expert opinion.Thanks > > > > > > vivek > > > ========================== > > > > > > , " sreesog " <sreesog@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear All, > > > > Today I was going through the Sutramritam Blog of our dear Shanmukha ji at:http://sutramritam.blogspot.com/2009/09/chara-dasa-update.html > > > > The following comment attracted my attention. I had a hearty lagh. And so sharing the same with you all here. > > > > Love and regards, > > > > Sreenadh > > > > > > > > ====================================== > > > > A Parampara Dasa in the name of Lord Vishnu: > > > > ----------- > > > > Next, the points are differing from a popular dasa in the name of Lord Vishnu as advocated by a Parampara. Let us call it ND. I discuss this only for academic purpose and I intend neither controversy intended nor defaming them. > > > > The Paramapara unfortunately never discusses any standard Jaimini commentary in their possession, nor quote them in their articles. One self claimed scholar of that Parampara even writes that the students of the parampara not necessarily read the ancient commentaries since their Gurudev has already done that and tested them. He opines that reading other texts is Rajasic and perhaps reading the books of their Gurudev works is Sattvic and sufficient for them. > > > > > > > > One day, I was informed by one scholar of the Parampara that their Parampara recognizes another Navamsa in the name of Somanatha Navamsa. I requested the scholar to produce the relevant verse that gives the variation and he admitted he didn't bother to learn about the source. So nice of him to admit. When I offered him that the available, IMHO corrupted, verse of Somanatha, he never turned up to discuss and they run a scholar program in the name of Sage Jaimini. > > > > > > > > Sometime later, I requested another scholar of the same parampara about the source of Somanatha Navamsa that their Parampara recently introduced in their secret teachings. That scholar informed me that the name derived as Somanatha since the ancestors of the Parampara were migrated from Gujarat and the linkage with Somanatha temple. I can't help myself but knocking my head to the wall. Then, I asked about Somanatha Drekkana, you know, the answer was obvious. The scholar explained that for the very reason it was given by Somanatha. > > > > > > > > And, the first scholar mentioned above, writes that their Parampara is a living lineage of Jaimini and they fail to understand the source of Somanatha Navamsa and its reckoning. Another scholar of the same parampara warns the students about the Guru Chandala Yoga in the sky (which is not in reality since Jupiter is retro in Capricorn and far away from Rahu) and its effect on Sage Jaimini teachings. > > > > ====================================== > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 Dear Siva ji, //> Guru Chandala Yoga is funny ???? > Please type in the search engine " Guru Chandala Yoga " > Then you will read a lot of stuff written by hundreds of astrologers.// Unlike some other groups, it is not some net only foreign astrologers/individuals who are sitting here. Many members present here are well learned in classics and don't need a search engine to check the relevant references. They got huge libraries and almost all available astrological classics at their disposal. Me, Shanmukha ji, Satya Prakash ji, Bhaskar ji, Neelam ji etc won't be an exception to this. We don't learn astrology from searches, but instead we learn astrology from gurus and books and share it in the net for and google searches to find. We are in this end (providing end) and you are in that end (searching end). For example please try to answer this question. Which is the text that uses the term 'Guru-Chandala Yoga'? A term which has become your favorite now. Try all your and Google searches, if you find the answer it is well and good. But if you don't find an answer to us, then come back to us, we will provide you with an answer with reference quote. Then you can go back and share it in the net for others to search and find. Wish you good luck. OK. Once you find some answer to the above question, then quote the relevant sloka from that text and tell us something about that text - such as who wrote it, what is its period of origin, what is the subject dealt within that text, what are the other interesting quotes that you found in that text etc etc. If you are able to do so, certainly it would be much informative. Hope you see - what I mean. The point is here in this group, you are dealing with a different class of individuals (The SJC teachings will not help much here); you will have to speak our language of quoting authentic references (from asto classics) and speaking based on the same only. Don't quote Sanjay Rath, BV Raman Santanum, KN Rao etc etc. But instead first quote Rishi Horas, Brihat Jataka, BPHS, Jaimini Sutra, Phala deepika etc etc - the original astro classics, and speak based on the same; just the way the scholars and interpreters of the first list will do. We don't need, don't depend on, or don't appreciate 'secondary' references if not supported by a primary reference from astro classics. If primary reference available and quoted then the secondary reference has an added value - otherwise not. Hope this helps. Love and regards, Sreenadh , " sivagnanalingam " <sarasalai_siva wrote: > > > || Jaya Jaya Jagannatha || > > > Guru Chandala Yoga is funny ???? > > Please type in the search engine " Guru Chandala Yoga " > > Then you will read a lot of stuff written by hundreds of astrologers. > > Many of them are not from the school of Sanjay Rath. > > ABOUT RAHU : > > Please Refer Dr. B.V. Ramnn Book " Three Hundred Important Combinations Page 288 " Pisacha Yoga " you might understand the role of RAHU. ( Pisacha means sprits due to the previous birth Karma ) > > > > Remember Dr.BVR didn't study nothing from Sanjaji. > > > sarasalai_siva Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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