Karna -The Astrologer

November 28, 2009

Dear Sirs,We are saying the same thing for different reasons. 1. One's goal is indicative of one's stature. If one feels "deprived" and takes to any path, versus one feels insulted but nevertheless stands by Dharma, is the difference between Adharma and Dharma. If we start talking of someone who has taken insults early on and then took to power by hook or crook, then how different are today's politicians or rowdies from that? Even they have some commitments in their lives, some persons with thom they confide, and they are immoral otherwise. That prototype, is itself to be the bad example. 2. Karna's dana - I responded on this previously. He does not have to bargain for Indra Sakti - that is what he deserved for the dana he did. It is not a shame on Indra to not return, if there was no immediate return then it results a

bigger gain - Indra basically negated the dana through returning it. This is the Dharma Sukshma. 3. Yes, people have Netaji or Gandhi or Aurobindo or Vasistha as their role model. That shows their stature and their understanding. The fact that

these are all models, is something very well known. The point I started with, is that having Gandhi for a model is not just a natural fact, it is indicative of how intellectually bankrupt India has become. Similarly, the fan-following of Karna is not just a well known fact, but very much indicative of how morally bankrupt the society is today. One's models, ideals reflect his character, his stature. And a collective choice reflects the character of society. As Bhaskar ji said, if the question is about what one's example is or should be, then any Dharma-loving man would take an Arjuna or a Yudhistira or a Bhimasena or The Krishna for his model. But for that, there is no purpose for us to speak bad of any personality. Thousands of years later if we discuss these characters, it is for learning something out of their good and bad - not to really favor anyone of them or criticize them. Shankar"Chakraborty, PL" <CHAKRABORTYP2 Sat, November 28, 2009 8:42:14 AMRE: Re: Karna -The Astrologer

Dear Bhaskar-ji & Shankar-ji,

I wish I did not comment on this matter. Anyway, following

are my understanding. ..

1) I don't have any problem with anybody having a goal

- Karna felt "deprived" of his due and he took the path

that he thought could succeed. I guess there was

some incident where Arjuna laughed at him / did not

allow Karna to participate.

2) We relate to different people ,..... not necessarily

in our 'LEAGUE". Some of us like Mahatma Gandhi,

some of us relate to Netaji (Subhash Bose)....why ??

Because we could relate to his sentiment.

People said that younger generation in Delhi voted

for Sheila Dixit...why ?? Because they could relate

emotionally to her ideas.

Another point...probably very important is...To me,

Karna is a complex character..with different shades.

The so called good characters are purely white..not

exciting for probing.

3) Karna had his weaknesses.. he fled from few battles

Shankar-ji has always provided few examples. Also

his decision to take few adharmic course to obtain

his goal is an indirect examples of his weakness.

I do employ touts to get my driving license./ to bypass

the queue in Howrah station & get a ticket. This is a

weakness..inability /unwillingness to go thru' the rigor.

4) Regarding his Daan of Akshay Kavach...what I remember

that Karna did not bargain. Indra gave him that Baan

'after being please with Karna'. Otherwise it could have

been shameful for Indra.

Regarding its use....what I remember that an unwilling

Karna used it after repeated urging by Duryodhana. And

Krishna knew it very well...he had used Ghatotkoch as

'pawn' to neutralize the Aindra Shakti Karna had gained.

Probably there was a conversation between Krishna and

others after Ghatotkoch' death - about why Ghatotkoch

needed to be eliminated because of his Rakshasa origin.

However, I read MBH while I was in class VI and have not

repeated it. So, my memory could be failing me. 30 yrs is

a long time.

And yes, I do agree to Bhaskar-ji's other points.

regards

Chakraborty

November 28, 2009

Dear all,

// When he fought Drupada to arrest him and present him as Gurudakshina to Drona

When the Gandharva Citrasena fights them during Ghosha yatra

During Gograhana, unable to withstand Arjuna

In the war, he runs multiple times in the few days he fights - from Bhima,

Arjuna, Satyiki, Abhimanyu.//

In none of these cases has he run away. Each incident must be read fully before we reach this judgement. Incidentally he defeated every Pandava brother (Except Arjuna) in the mahabharata war but spared life of each of them because he had no issues with them, he knew they were his younger brother, and due to his promise given to his mother Kunti.

I request those who make such judgements to please read the Mahabharata properly and religiously.

In those days running away from a fight was considered as death. And not even the worst of warriors used to run away but accept either defeat or death, but running was not in the blood of such great warriors.

I do not have time to present each incident in detail otherwise I would have surely presented the same here.

regards/Bhaskar.

, "Chakraborty, PL" <CHAKRABORTYP2 wrote:>> Dear Bhaskar-ji & Shankar-ji> > Bhaskar-ji said...> > //Now one sentence I diasgree with -> > // Karna had his weaknesses..he fled from few battles //> I am copy / pasteing from Shankar-ji's mail. It shows that Karna did fled.> > //A Kshatriya is not supposed to run away from the war, even if it means death.> Karna not only arbitrarily runs, but has the habit of running from the field.> He ran away in the following occasions:> When he fought Drupada to arrest him and present him as Gurudakshina to Drona> When the Gandharva Citrasena fights them during Ghosha yatra> During Gograhana, unable to withstand Arjuna> In the war, he runs multiple times in the few days he fights - from Bhima,> Arjuna, Satyiki, Abhimanyu.> --------------> Shankar-ji said> //Being the weilder of Pasupata and Brahmastra, Arjuna could *never*> be conquered or killed in combat.> > I have my doubts on this. While fighting with Bhagadutta, Bhagadutta> did fire some Astra (probably Vaisnavastra or something). Krishna had to> shield Arjuna & accept that Astra as a garland. Similar incidents happened> while Arjuna was fighting post Kurukshetra. He was even killed by> Babhruvahana (Prince of Manipur & Arjuna's own son).> > In one occasion, Krishna advised that everybody should give up arms to evade> the ill effects of that Astra during Kurukshetra. Arjuna also did so.> > So, the events are so many that a very clear conclusion is difficult to> attain.> > regards> > Chakraborty> > .> > > > > ________________________________> On Behalf Of Bhaskar> Saturday, November 28, 2009 10:26 AM> > Re: Karna -The Astrologer> > > > dear Chakroborty ji,> > I understood very well previously too when you mentioned about relating> to Karna. Yes now let me accept this that at times we relate to people> like not even Karna but even Arjuna too, because Mahabharata is a great> epic and what melodrama or emotions or sentiments is there in this> world, all is there in mahabharat and what is not here is not there.> Interestingly we can co-relate to almost every character of Mahabharata> at one of the other times in our Life. But co-relations should be done> only in trying to emulate their high ideals.> > Now one sentence I diasgree with -> > // Karna had his weaknesses..he fled from few battles //> > I will just ask all of those who agree with above to give just 2> incidents from where he fled away from battle. You wont find even two.> Getting defeated in a battle does not mean "fled away". Let us give due> credit where requisited, to great heroes instead of tainting them black> fully.> > Love n regards,> > Bhaskar.> > > > This Message was sent from Indian Oil Messaging Gateway, New Delhi, India. The information contained in this electronic message and any attachments to this message are intended for the exclusive use of the addressee(s) and may contain proprietary, confidential or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately and destroy all copies of this message and any attachments.>

November 28, 2009

Dear Bhaskar ji,"In none of these cases has he run

away. Each incident must be read fully before we reach this judgement.

Incidentally he defeated every Pandava brother (Except Arjuna) in the

mahabharata war but spared life of each of them because he had no

issues with them, he knew they were his younger brother, and due to his

promise given to his mother Kunti."This is just mix-up of things. In the events listed Karna was not merely defeated - he *fled*, he *ran away*. From Chitrasena he ran, leaving Duryodhana to his fate. During Gograhana he *ran*, and was *chased* by Arjuna. He *ran* multiple times in the great war and was *chased* by Bhimasena. He was defeated in many other instances, but these are instances when he not only was defeated, but *fled*, when he *showed his back to the enemy*. On all the four instances when the Pandavas fell short in front of Karna, they were *defeated*, rendered helpless - they did not *run away*. I am not ignoring the difference between getting defeated and running away from the battle. ShankarBhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish Sent: Sat, November 28, 2009 1:24:06 PM Re: Karna -The Astrologer

Dear all,

// When he fought Drupada to arrest him and present him as Gurudakshina to Drona

When the Gandharva Citrasena fights them during Ghosha yatra

During Gograhana, unable to withstand Arjuna

In the war, he runs multiple times in the few days he fights - from Bhima,

Arjuna, Satyiki, Abhimanyu.//

In none of these cases has he run away. Each incident must be read fully before we reach this judgement. Incidentally he defeated every Pandava brother (Except Arjuna) in the mahabharata war but spared life of each of them because he had no issues with them, he knew they were his younger brother, and due to his promise given to his mother Kunti.

I request those who make such judgements to please read the Mahabharata properly and religiously.

In those days running away from a fight was considered as death. And not even the worst of warriors used to run away but accept either defeat or death, but running was not in the blood of such great warriors.

I do not have time to present each incident in detail otherwise I would have surely presented the same here.

regards/Bhaskar.

November 28, 2009

Karna as the adulated figure

Even though Karna devoted his services to evil Duryodhana, he remains an adulated figure for millions of Hindus and Indians. Karna is always considered as a formidable warrior, perhaps the greatest warrior of all time, a courageous spirit who braved impossible odds in his life, and died with unique courage, valor and honor. Karna is especially adored for his generosity. He is also considered an example of how misjudgment renders all the fine qualities of an individual futile.

Many Hindus consider Karna as a man who fought against his misfortunes throughout his life without a single pause. He never got his due, but never gave up his efforts. Many of his contemporaries including Bheeshma and Lord Krishna conceded Karna was a noble spirit who rarely appears in the human race. He is idealized as an inspiration for struggling humanity to not lose heart. Karna is also a popular Hindu male name.

There are many incidents and quotes which indicate the might and greatness of Karna. One of those incidents is during Karna's war with Arjuna. When Arjuna's chariot was shifted a few inches back by the impact of one of the arrows shot by Karna, Krishna being Arjuna's Sarathi(charioteer) praised Karna. On his comment, Arjuna exclaimed that "while I hit Karna's chariot it moved miles behind so there is no reason to praise Karna on this". Krishna then explained to Arjuna that "On your chariot I, Lord Vishnu am present. I own the weight of entire universe and in addition to it your chariot is the chariot of Agni(the fire god) and it has the blessings of Hanuman in the form of a flag. If you remove these factors your chariot will fly away, revolving around the Earth".

There are also certain incidents those describe Karna's ethics in war as well. One of them is during his duel with Arjuna, when by the blow of Karna's arrow Arjuna fainted. At that moment the cobra king Ashwasen who was sheltered by Karna, crept out of hiding and requested Karna to use his poison against Arjuna because Arjuna had burnt his home(a forest) to the ground. Karna refused to use a snake against any human, saying that it would be treachery towards humanity.

Furthermore; at night on the day of his death as Karna lay dying on the Kurukshetra battlefield, in the Pandava camp Krishna lay saddened. When questioned by Arjuna as to why he was upset, Krishna replied that he was mourning the passing of a great man like Karna. Angered by Krishna's affection for Karna, Arjuna demanded to know why. Then Krishna took Arjuna towards Karna, disguised as two Brahmins; one younger and one older. Krishna, disguised as the older Brahmin, said to Karna "Oh Karna, you are known to be extremely genenrous, hence I am here requesting something for my son's wedding, what can you give me?"

Karna replied saying "I do not have anything to give you as I lie here dying, but if there is anything you can see which I can give you then please request that which you desire." Upon hearing this Krishna said, upon noting a golden tooth within Karna's mouth, "Oh Karna, I can see within your mouth a golden tooth, can you give me that?" And so Karna, using a nearby rock knocked his tooth out. In order to test Karna even more and in order to demonstrate to Arjuna Karna's generosity, Krishna scolded Karna for giving him something covered in blood which is not suitable for a brahmin to touch. Upon hearing this Karna began to cry and with his tears washed the tooth and gave it to Krishna. After this Krishna left and Arjuna followed. Krishna then told Arjuna that the passing of Karna from this world would mark the passing of generosity and other such qualities which Karna possesses; and hence he was mourning Karna's death.

Contrast with Arjuna

There are many parallels between Arjuna and Karna. Both were master archers, competed for Draupadi's hand, and had to fight their own brothers in the war. A deeper connection lies in the fact that the two felt strong ties to the Kaurava side both through friendship and through blood. Their decisions along with the corresponding consequences to themselves and their families, are used to emphasize the importance of doing one's duty as explained in the Bhagavad Gita by Krishna.

Karna serves as an excellent example of a gifted, generous, righteous and brave individual who was still doomed because of his loyalty towards Duryodhana. Karna had the five perfect qualities of a husband for Draupadi, but being with Duryodhana nullified these. Karna's affection for Duryodhana led him to, albeit unwillingly, assist his dear friend in all his actions against the Pandavas. Karna was aware of Duryodhana's malicious plans against the Pandavas. Karna was also aware of his own imminent downfall on assisting the evil against the good. While some maintain that he acquired a blemished image by his treatment of Draupadi at Dhritrashtra's court, others maintain that he was justified in this act, since it was Draupadi who first dishonored and humiliated him by unjustly denying him the opportunity to compete in her Swayamvara by insulting him with the soot-putra epithet (referring to him as being of a lower class background) in order to disqualify him; however, his role in the killing of an unarmed and outnumbered Abhimanyu can be interpreted as an act that more directly damaged him as an honorable warrior and doomed him to a similar fate. According to some interpretations of the Mahabharata, it was this deed that solidified Karna's status as a warrior on the wrong side of the war and sealed his fate of being killed by Arjuna in the same way, being unarmed, chariotless and with his back turned to Arjuna.

Source- Wikipedia

November 28, 2009

DearBharadwaj ji,

I accept whenever I am wrong. If I am. I will surely accept it, but now

we cannot just say " He fled away " and expect people to believe it

because You said so.

If You think I am wrong, if You think Wikipedia is wrong, then the onus

of proof to substantiate what you claim, lies on You, Sir.

But I cannot accept that he rand and fled away many time from war. This

statement does not hold water even in a spoon for me.

regads,

Bhaskar.

In , ShankaraBharadwaj

Khandavalli <shankarabharadwaj wrote:

>

> Dear Bhaskar ji,

>

> " In none of these cases has he run

> away. Each incident must be read fully before we reach this judgement.

> Incidentally he defeated every Pandava brother (Except Arjuna) in the

> mahabharata war but spared life of each of them because he had no

> issues with them, he knew they were his younger brother, and due to

his

> promise given to his mother Kunti. "

>

> This is just mix-up of things. In the events listed Karna was not

merely defeated - he *fled*, he *ran away*. From Chitrasena he ran,

leaving Duryodhana to his fate. During Gograhana he *ran*, and was

*chased* by Arjuna. He *ran* multiple times in the great war and was

*chased* by Bhimasena. He was defeated in many other instances, but

these are instances when he not only was defeated, but *fled*, when he

*showed his back to the enemy*.

>

> On all the four instances when the Pandavas fell short in front of

Karna, they were *defeated*, rendered helpless - they did not *run

away*. I am not ignoring the difference between getting defeated and

running away from the battle.

>

> Shankar

>

> ________________________________

> Bhaskar bhaskar_jyotish

>

> Sat, November 28, 2009 1:24:06 PM

> Re: Karna -The Astrologer

>

> Dear all,

> // When he fought Drupada to arrest him and present him as

Gurudakshina to Drona

> When the Gandharva Citrasena fights them during Ghosha yatra

> During Gograhana, unable to withstand Arjuna

> In the war, he runs multiple times in the few days he fights - from

Bhima,

> Arjuna, Satyiki, Abhimanyu.//

> In none of these cases has he run away. Each incident must be read

fully before we reach this judgement. Incidentally he defeated every

Pandava brother (Except Arjuna) in the mahabharata war but spared life

of each of them because he had no issues with them, he knew they were

his younger brother, and due to his promise given to his mother Kunti.

> I request those who make such judgements to please read the

Mahabharata properly and religiously.

> In those days running away from a fight was considered as death. And

not even the worst of warriors used to run away but accept either defeat

or death, but running was not in the blood of such great warriors.

> I do not have time to present each incident in detail otherwise I

would have surely presented the same here.

> regards/Bhaskar.

>

November 28, 2009

Dear Friends,

Shri Bharadwaj ji will provide us the authentic proof for his statements

which have been repeated several times during the day in last two days

about Karna having fled and run away from war many times.

In the meanwhile lets ponder whether can he do this way ?

A great warrior like Karna could only be defeated by a greater warrior

but could he develop fear as to run away ? He being a Pandava brother

could he stoop low in the ethics of warfare ? He who was a great Daani

did he fear anyone as to run away ? He as a Surya Putra and he as a

King of his kingdom gifted by Duryodhana could he run away from a battle

field ? And the best part is would Duryodhana a great King himself,

could he befreind a person so closely and treat him as his finest

friend, ally and brother, could he befriend a warrior who several times

run away from the battlefield ?

Sound preposterous and impossible and imaginary. What do you think ?

regards/.Bhaskar.

November 28, 2009

Dear Bhaskar ji,I would not have needed to "show" any proof if we all read Vyasa Maha Bharata - these are facts well known. I lsited out instances when that happened, but I guess it is

better you refer MBH directly than I pasting the whole passages here.

However as a quick reference I am pasting one instance of Gograhana here. It is in Virata Parva, Sections 54-55. I am pasting KM Ganguly's verse-verse translation of Vyasa Bharata here, what is relevant is in bold: "Section LIV "Vaisampayana said, 'Having

disorganised the hostile host by force and having recovered the kine,

that foremost of bowmen, desirous of fighting again, proceeded towards

Duryodhana. And beholding the kine running wild towards the city of the

Matsyas, the foremost warriors of the Kurus regarded Kiritin to have

already achieved success. And all of a sudden they fell upon Arjuna who

was advancing towards Duryodhana. And beholding their countless

divisions firmly arrayed in order of battle with countless banners

waving over them, that slayer of foes, addressing the son of the king

of the Matsyas, said, 'Urge on, to the best of their p. 92 speed by this road, these white

steeds decked with golden bridles. Strive thou well, for I would

approach this crowd of Kuru lions. Like an elephant desiring an

encounter with another, the Suta's son of wicked soul eagerly

desireth a battle with me. Take me, O prince, to him who hath grown so

proud under the patronage of Duryodhana. Thus addressed, the son of

Virata by means of those large steeds endued with the speed of the wind

and furnished with golden armour, broke that array of cars and took the

Pandava into the midst of the battle-field. And seeing this those

mighty car-warriors, Chitrasena and Sangramajit and Satrusaha and Jaya,

desirous of aiding Karna, rushed with arrows and long shafts, towards

the advancing hero of Bharata's race. Then that foremost of men,

inflamed with wrath, began to consume by means of fiery arrows shot

from his bow, that array of cars belonging to those bulls among the

Kurus, like a tremendous conflagration consuming a forest. Then, when

the battle began to rage furiously, the Kuru hero, Vikarna, mounted on

his car, approached that foremost of car-warriors, Partha, the younger

brother of Bhima,--showering upon him terrible shafts thick and long.

Then cutting Vikarna's bow furnished with a tough string and horns

overlaid with gold, Arjuna cut off his flagstaff. And Vikarna,

beholding his flagstaff cut off, speedily took to flight. And after

Vikarna's flight, Satruntapa, unable to repress his ire, began to

afflict Partha, that obstructer of foes and achiever of super-human

feats, by means of a perfect shower of arrows. And drowned, as it were,

in the midst of the Kuru-array, Arjuna, pierced by that mighty

car-warrior,--king Satruntapa--pierced the latter in return with five

and then slew his car-driver with ten shafts, and pierced by that bull

of the Bharata race with an arrow capable of cleaving the thickest coat

of mail, Satruntapa fell dead on the field of battle, like a tree from

a mountain-top torn up by the wind. And those brave bulls among men,

mangled in battle by that braver bull among men, began to waver and

tremble like mighty forests shaken by the violence of the wind that

blows at the time of the universal dissolution. And struck in battle by

Partha, the son of Vasava, those well-dressed heroes among men--those

givers of wealth endued with the energy of Vasava--defeated and

deprived of life, began to measure their lengths on the ground, like

full-grown Himalayan elephants clad in mails of black steel decked with

gold. And like unto a raging fire consuming a forest at the close of

summer, that foremost of men, wielding the Gandiva, ranged the

field in all directions, slaying his foes in battle thus. And as the

wind rangeth at will, scattering masses of clouds and fallen leaves in

the season of spring, so did that foremost of

car-warriors--Kiritin--ranged in that battle, scattering all his foes

before him. And soon slaying the red steeds yoked unto the car of

Sangramajit, the brother of Vikatana's son, that hero decked in diadem

and endued with great vigour then cut off his antagonist's head by a

crescent-shaped arrow. And when his brother was slain, Vikartana's son

of the Suta caste, mustering all his prowess, rushed at Arjuna, like a huge elephant with out-stretched tusks, p. 93 or like a tiger at a mighty

bull. And the son of Vikarna quickly pierced the son of Pandu with

twelve shafts and all his steeds also in every part of their bodies and

Virata's son too in his hand. And rushing impetuously against Vikarna's

son who was suddenly advancing against him, Kiritin attacked him

fiercely like Garuda of variegated plumage swooping down upon a snake.

And both of them were foremost of bowmen, and both were endued with

great strength, and both were capable of slaying foes. And seeing that

an encounter was imminent between them, the Kauravas, anxious to

witness it, stood aloof as lookers on. And beholding the offender

Karna, the son of Pandu, excited to fury, and glad also at having him,

soon made him, his horses, his car, and car-driver invisible by means

of a frightful shower of countless arrows. And the warriors of the

Bharatas headed by Bhishma, with their horses, elephants, and cars,

pierced by Kiritin and rendered invisible by means of his shafts, their

ranks also scattered and broken, began to wail aloud in grief. The

illustrious and heroic Karna, however counteracting with numberless

arrows of his own those shafts by Arjuna's hand, soon burst forth in

view with bow and arrows like a blazing fire. And then there arose the

sound of loud clapping of hands, with the blare of conchs and trumpets

and kettle-drums made by the Kurus while they applauded Vikartana's son

who filled the atmosphere with the sound of his bow-string flapping

against his fence. And beholding Kiritin filling the air with the twang

of Gandiva, and the upraised tail of the monkey that

constituted his flag and that terrible creature yelling furiously from

the top of his flagstaff, Karna sent forth a loud roar. And afflicting

by means of his shafts, Vikartana's son along with his steeds, car and

car-driver, Kiritin impetuously poured an arrowy shower on him, casting

his eyes on the grandsire and Drona and Kripa. And Vikartana's son also

poured upon Partha a heavy shower of arrows like a rain-charged cloud.

And the diadem-decked Arjuna also covered Karna with a thick down-pour

of keen-edged shafts. And the two heroes stationed on their cars,

creating clouds of keen-edged arrows in a combat carried on by means of

countless shafts and weapons, appeared to the spectators like the sun

and the moon covered by clouds, and the light-handed Karna, unable to

bear the sight of the foe, pierced the four horses of the diadem-decked

hero with whetted arrows, and then struck his car-driver with three

shafts, and his flagstaff also with three. Thus struck, that grinder of

all adversaries in battle, that bull of the Kuru race, Jishnu wielding

the Gandiva, like a lion awaked from slumber, furiously

attacked Kama by means of straight-going arrows. And afflicted by the

arrowy shower (of Karna), that illustrious achiever of super-human

deeds soon displayed a thick shower of arrows in return. And he covered

Karna's car with countless shafts like the sun covering the different

worlds with rays. And like a lion attacked by an elephant, Arjuna,

taking some keen crescent-shaped arrows from out of his quiver and

drawing his bow to his ear, pierced the Suta's son on every part of his body. And that grinder of foes pierced Karna's arms and thighs and head and forehead p. 94 and neck and other principal

parts of his body with whetted shafts endued with the impetuosity of

the thunderbolt and shot from the Gandiva in battle. And

mangled and afflicted by the arrows shot by Partha the son of Pandu,

Vikartana's son, quitted the van of battle, and quickly took to flight,

like one elephant vanquished by another.'" Section LV "Vaisampayana said, 'After the

son of Radha had fled from the field, other warriors headed by

Duryodhana, one after another, fell upon the son of Pandu with their

respective divisions."ShankarBhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish Sent: Sat, November 28, 2009 1:58:55 PM Re: Karna -The Astrologer

DearBharadwaj ji,

I accept whenever I am wrong. If I am. I will surely accept it, but now

we cannot just say "He fled away" and expect people to believe it

because You said so.

If You think I am wrong, if You think Wikipedia is wrong, then the onus

of proof to substantiate what you claim, lies on You, Sir.

But I cannot accept that he rand and fled away many time from war. This

statement does not hold water even in a spoon for me.

regads,

Bhaskar.

In ancient_indian_ astrology, ShankaraBharadwaj

Khandavalli <shankarabharadwaj@ ...> wrote:

>

> Dear Bhaskar ji,

>

> "In none of these cases has he run

> away. Each incident must be read fully before we reach this judgement.

> Incidentally he defeated every Pandava brother (Except Arjuna) in the

> mahabharata war but spared life of each of them because he had no

> issues with them, he knew they were his younger brother, and due to

his

> promise given to his mother Kunti."

>

> This is just mix-up of things. In the events listed Karna was not

merely defeated - he *fled*, he *ran away*. From Chitrasena he ran,

leaving Duryodhana to his fate. During Gograhana he *ran*, and was

*chased* by Arjuna. He *ran* multiple times in the great war and was

*chased* by Bhimasena. He was defeated in many other instances, but

these are instances when he not only was defeated, but *fled*, when he

*showed his back to the enemy*.

>

> On all the four instances when the Pandavas fell short in front of

Karna, they were *defeated*, rendered helpless - they did not *run

away*. I am not ignoring the difference between getting defeated and

running away from the battle.

>

> Shankar

>

> ____________ _________ _________ __

> Bhaskar bhaskar_jyotish@ ...

> ancient_indian_ astrology

> Sat, November 28, 2009 1:24:06 PM

> [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Karna -The Astrologer

>

> Dear all,

> // When he fought Drupada to arrest him and present him as

Gurudakshina to Drona

> When the Gandharva Citrasena fights them during Ghosha yatra

> During Gograhana, unable to withstand Arjuna

> In the war, he runs multiple times in the few days he fights - from

Bhima,

> Arjuna, Satyiki, Abhimanyu.//

> In none of these cases has he run away. Each incident must be read

fully before we reach this judgement. Incidentally he defeated every

Pandava brother (Except Arjuna) in the mahabharata war but spared life

of each of them because he had no issues with them, he knew they were

his younger brother, and due to his promise given to his mother Kunti.

> I request those who make such judgements to please read the

Mahabharata properly and religiously.

> In those days running away from a fight was considered as death. And

not even the worst of warriors used to run away but accept either defeat

or death, but running was not in the blood of such great warriors.

> I do not have time to present each incident in detail otherwise I

would have surely presented the same here.

> regards/Bhaskar.

>

November 28, 2009

Dear Bhaskar-ji,

The possible reply may create another controversy.

Anyway, I had read MBH in Bengali (Krittivas Ojha edn),

not the Sanskrit original. It depicted karna flee from some

scene.

Whether that was a correct depiction or not --- difficult

to tell (for me). Whether there is consistency in describing

Karna vis-a-vis other Pandava --- I do not know.

Whether 'interpretation and subsequent description' of

real characters changed over time - getting new biases ---

again difficult to tell.

As far as I know, some great literatures were revived during

Shunga Dynasty reign. Also some changes might have occurred

too. I remember that description of Shiva-s neck (Neelkantha)

changing from 'due to drinking Halahal' to 'due to strangulation

by Vishnu' has happened in different purana.

regards

Chakraborty

On Behalf Of BhaskarSaturday, November 28, 2009 2:41 PM Subject: Re: Karna -The Astrologer

Dear Friends,Shri Bharadwaj ji will provide us the authentic proof for his statementswhich have been repeated several times during the day in last two daysabout Karna having fled and run away from war many times.In the meanwhile lets ponder whether can he do this way ?A great warrior like Karna could only be defeated by a greater warriorbut could he develop fear as to run away ? He being a Pandava brothercould he stoop low in the ethics of warfare ? He who was a great Daanidid he fear anyone as to run away ? He as a Surya Putra and he as aKing of his kingdom gifted by Duryodhana could he run away from a battlefield ? And the best part is would Duryodhana a great King himself,could he befreind a person so closely and treat him as his finestfriend, ally and brother, could he befriend a warrior who several timesrun away from the battlefield ?Sound preposterous and impossible and imaginary. What do you think ?regards/.Bhaskar.This Message was sent from Indian Oil Messaging Gateway, New Delhi, India. The information contained in this electronic message and any attachments to this message are intended for the exclusive use of the addressee(s) and may contain proprietary, confidential or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately and destroy all copies of this message and any attachments.

November 28, 2009

Dear Bhaskar ji,To all the questions, the answer is straight: the image we bear of Karna, or of Arjuna, is not the image that Vyasa gives us. The image we bear, is built up as a popular notion, not by traditional scholars but by those Purana-vairis who tried to show Puranic heroes in bad light and tried to glorify the Pauranik villians. If we go to the original, we get a totally, totally different picture of all these characters. The very reason why I am trying to argue here, is that. Let us go to the originals, let us get the facts straight. Then there would be no need to argue on the basis of guesses. ShankarBhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish Sent: Sat, November 28, 2009 2:40:39 PM Re: Karna -The Astrologer