Guest guest Posted November 29, 2009 Report Share Posted November 29, 2009 Dear Shankarji,1)I appreciate Kulbirji's balanced reply. If LOrd Krishna's name is not tarnished by running away from Jarasandha why should anybody try to tarnish tha name of Karna for avoiding prolonged encounter with the gandharva. At that time Karna did not forget his mantras and he would have been justified in using the Brahmastra but he saved the world by not using that. Let us not have double standards to condemn Karna.2)You are confused. Karna forgot the mantras due to curse only at one time and that was his last. Earlier he did not forget the Mantras.3)If Bhishma and Drona's having astra means nothing so also Arjuna's having astra means nothing for the same reason. Wecannot have double standards please.4)Arjuna did not have any superiority. Bhishma was killed by keeping Shikhandi in front of Bhishma. Drona was killed through Yudhisthira's lying and he was killed by Dhristadyumna when he was unarmed. Let us not foget that. Arjuna's life was saved by Lord Krishna. 5)Karna had been tricked by Indra and does it not mean anything to us? Lord Indra and Lord Krishna were the admirers of Karna even if you leave aside Lord Surya and they will not agree with you.6) Karna spared the lives of the four pandavas and Arjuna was also saved from Karna by Lord Krishna and does that not mean anything to us? Let us not forget that nobody spared Karna's life. I am sure if the souls of Kunti or Yudhisthira or the rest of the Pandavas could voice their concern rest assured that they would not agree with you Shankarji. Karna is undoubtedly the greatest hero in the Mahabharata.Regards,Sunil K. Bhattacharjya --- On Sun, 11/29/09, ShankaraBharadwaj Khandavalli <shankarabharadwaj wrote:ShankaraBharadwaj Khandavalli <shankarabharadwajRe: Re: Karna -The Astrologer Date: Sunday, November 29, 2009, 12:35 AM How is it relevant in evaluating Karna or any other warrior? What divine purpose did Karna have, but for his inability to withstand the enemy, to run away from the field? Shankarkulbir <kulbirbains@ in.com>ancient_indian_ astrologySun, November 29, 2009 1:00:18 PMSubject: [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Karna -The Astrologer Respected Sirs, One of names of Krishna ji is RANCHODH. It should be enough to draw a conclusion to the on going discussion. regards Kulbir ancient_indian_ astrology, "Bhaskar" <bhaskar_jyotish@ ...> wrote: > > > I do not understand why are we talking of the other characters in the > MBH. And also why we are comparing two brothers and great warriors > Arjuna and Karna unnecessarily. Does this make sense ? The whole point > of dissention is that Karna is being spoken of having run away again and > again. Not a single proof has been given of his having run away froma > single combat. > > By the way how can Bhishmas and Dronas astra be negated by Arjuna since > he also has those ? Are they allies or foes ? > > Every post of yours and reference given has been read completely and > instead a blown up image of karna as being evil is being painted > unnecessarily without cause or reasons. > > How many times Karna had to bite dust ? Please read the MBH properly and > one will find that every warrior had to beat the dust in front of one > or the other warriors. So what is proposed here ? A Lion should meet a > mouse in combat ? > > I too can List instances when the same warriors you propogate were > reduced to dust in front of some other warrior. What is so great in this > when a war of such magnum opus is being played ? > > Who is one to decide that Karna had no valour as equal to Arjuna or > Bhima ? What falsehood is this ? I ask you to read what Krishna and > Bhishma said to Karna when he met them. You mayvread this from the same > source you gave us, which you now must not call as third rate since you > yourself gave us that source. > > Please prove that Karna ran away several times and do not bring the > other characters of MBH in this medley. > > Bhaskar. > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, ShankaraBharadwaj > Khandavalli <shankarabharadwaj@ > wrote: > > > > Dear Sunil ji, > > > > 1. Karna's Brahmastra is as good as not there, because he was cursed > that it will not be usable when required. > > 2. Bhishma or Drona having the astras means nothing, since any one of > their astras will be negated by Arjuna who also has those. > > 3. Bhishma or Drona with thier helplessness led to the war, and they > were equally obliged against the usage of any such astra. They did no > favor by not using them, because usage would hardly make any difference. > > 4. Bhishma or Drona had no *stakes* in victory, so their usage of such > weapon is ruled out. On the other hand, the real restraint is observed > by Arjuna who had stakes in the war, in the *victory*, not just as a > participant but as a party to it. > > > > Coming to Karna, people are going in loops over this without even > reading the posts I made on these along with exact passages, for the > simple reason that they have a blown up image of Karna in their minds > and find it hard to reconcile it with what exactly he was. Please check > for yourself, how many times Karna had to bite the dust, in front of > Arjuna, Bhimasena, Abhimanyu, Satyiki, Gandharvas, Drupada's army all > through the epic. There is no point in we arguing when the huge epic of > a lakh verses stares at our face. The primary reason I entered this > thread is to demolish that false image. > > > > 1. First of all, Karna is not comparable in valor to those like > Bhimasena or Arjuna > > 2. Secondly, he has the inferior quality of running away from the > field, which none of the celebrated warriors ever did > > 3. Thirdly, he has a bad mouth - he badmouthed Yudhistira, Bhimasena, > Nakula and Sahadeva when he had an upper hand. On the contrary, see that > though Bhima vanquished Karna many times in a single day he did not > badmouth Karna. One occasion when Karna catches hold of Bhima, he > insults Bhima - immediately Arjuna renders Karna helpless first with > weapons, and then showing him the qualitative difference between him and > Bhimasena, and how mean Karna has been by badmouthing and how > qualitatively superior Bhimasena is when he defeated Karna multiple > times but has observed restraint on his words. > > > > So much for a great warrior! > > > > You can list instances when he did not ditch Duryodhana, I will give > you instances when he did - by running away for his life and leaving > Duryodhana to his fate while fighting Gandharvas. You can list instances > when he showed great valor, I will show you instances when he was > reduced to nothing. You can list instances when he admonishes > Duryodhana, I will show you instances when he architected the vilest of > designs. > > > > And a noble man is he who stands for the first kind in all the above > cases, not opportunistically choses either this or that. And almost > everyone is agreeing on this. > > > > But even if I make a hundred more posts on this, it is not going to > make any difference, we will still repeating these same points even then > - because it is about the long standing notions people have, which do > not change with email threads. I guess it will not serve any purpose to > exchange mails like this. > > > > Shankar > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > Sunil Bhattacharjya sunil_bhattacharjya @ > > ancient_indian_ astrology > > Sun, November 29, 2009 8:31:49 AM > > Re: [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Karna -The Astrologer > > > > > > Dear Shankarji, > > > > You are ignoring that Bhishma too had the Pasupata and because of that > even the mighty Parashurama, could not defeat him. That is also the > reason why Lord Krishna asked Arjuna to get the Pasupata from Lord > Shiva. Karna and Drona also had the Brahmastra. So don't you want to say > that these three warriors from the Kaurava side also saved the world. > Ashwatthama did have the Brahmastra but did not know how to control that > and the Mahabharata tells us the consequences of that. Are you not aware > of this? > > > > Karna could have killed Bhima but he had given promise to his mother > Kunti that he would not kill Yudhiasthira, Bhima, Sahadeva and Nakula. > Are you not aware of this? > > > > If you have read the Mahabharata Lord Krishna himself indicated that > Karna was better than Arjuna. When Karna's arrow pushed away Arjuna's > rath only slightly and Arjuna's arrow pushed away Karna's rath > considerably then Arjuna was laughing at Karna's sterngth but Lord > Krishna told him that Karna's arrow was more powerful than that of > Arjuna. Arjuna's rath did not move much because of the weight of Hanuman > and of Lord Krishna Himself. Hope all these instances will make you > realise the greatness. > > > > Regards, > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > --- On Sat, 11/28/09, ShankaraBharadwaj Khandavalli > <shankarabharadwaj@ > wrote: > > > > > > >ShankaraBharadwaj Khandavalli <shankarabharadwaj@ > > > >[ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Karna -The Astrologer > > >ancient_indian_ astrology > > >Saturday, November 28, 2009, 6:43 AM > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > >Dear Sunil ji, > > > > > >Instead of reading "could have" and "should have"s, if we take even a > cursory view of the war > > > > > > - with Karna, Drona, Kripa etc all on one side, with three Rathis > Bhimasena, Arjuna and Satyiki on agression, the Kaurava side lost 7 out > of 11 Akshauhinis on a single day when Jayadratha was killed > > > - with Karna as a helpless witness, Bhimasena had slain 25 brothers > of Duryodhana on that single day with single hand, while repeatedly > demolishing Karna with the other hand > > > - Dusshasana was killed with Karna as the witness > > > > > > > > >the Kaurava side was reasonably strong when Bhishma was there - after > him, with his only absence, NONE of the warriors on Kaurava side could > do ANYTHING about the loss. > > > > > >If Krishna "saved" Arjuna, Arjuna did save the > > > whole world by his abstention of Pasupata and Brahmastra. So this is > just a useless debate as of who is stronger - Arjuna alone during > Gograhana, gave enough exhibition of what he is, and what the whole Kuru > host is. > > > > > >Shankar > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a @> > > >ancient_indian_ astrology > > >Sat, November 28, 2009 6:55:02 PM > > >Re: [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Karna -The Astrologer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > >Dear Shankarji, > > > > > >There is a saying that Baali was a Veer, Bali was a Veer so was > Hanuman ( some say Hanuman was half as compared to Baali and Bali) but > never a hero will be born equal to Karna. It is rightly so. > > > > > >In the Mahabharata war Lord Krishna lowered the Ratha to save Arjuna > otherwise Karna's arrow would have severed Arjuna's head. Lord Krishna > told that to Arjuna. Even Hanuman said superlatively about Karna. In the > cattle capture episode Arjuna used a mohini arrow and all the kaurava > heroes swooned and Arjuna recovered the Cattle. Even Bhishma was > helpless. While Arjuna gets his credit for recovering the cattle there > was no dicredeit to Karna. > > > Karna was so very faithful to his friend that he refused to go to > Pandava side and that was exemplary. Again when Indra asked Karna to > give him the Kavacha Karna knew that it was Indra in disguise as > > > his father Surya told him in advance but Karna did no hesitate to > give his kavacha to Indra. There is no other such example in the Indian > texts. Karna's heroics are endless. Do you think without Lord Krishna's > help Arjuna would have won. If Lord Krishna would not have been on the > Pandava side Karna would have won the war for Duryodhana. Karna promised > to his mother that he would not killl the four pandavas other than > Arjuna and that is why he did not fight with Bhima. While fighting with > the gandharvas karna did not use the Brahmastra and that is why it > appears to you that he lost. Against the mayavi Gandharvas a human being > cannot fight a straight war and this should be kept in kind. > > > > > >Regards, > > > > > >Suni K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > > > > >--- On Sat, 11/28/09, ShankaraBharadwaj Khandavalli > <shankarabharadwaj@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > >>ShankaraBharadwaj Khandavalli <shankarabharadwaj@ > > > >>Re: [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Karna -The Astrologer > > >>ancient_indian_ astrology > > >>Saturday, November 28, 2009, 4:35 AM > > >> > > >> > > >>>> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> >> > > >> > > >> > > >>>> > > >> > > >>Dear Bhaskar ji, > > >> > > >>You should, at the very least, completely read the references I > posted, before coming back like this. You have not even read the > references I gave: > > >> > > >> - The Kurus along with Karna running away from the field (post 2) > > >>>> - Draupadi swayamvara where Arjuna and Karna fought each other > (post 2) > > >>>> - Ghosha yatra from vana parva, where Karna ran away not able to > > >>withstand Gandharvas, Duryodhana refusing to run away and getting > > >>arrested by them (post 2) > > >>>> - Gograhana where Arjuna defeated the whole Kuru army, where > Karna ran away (post 1) > > >>>> - Multiple times when Karna fled, not able to withstand Bhimasena > in the great war, on the day Jayadratha was killed (post 2) > > >> > > >>These are all there in the two posts I made, along with complete > translation of relevant passages. So please stop putting the ball in my > court, get to those references, read those, verify those. And do not > come back with third rate sources, come back either with verses from MBH > or a well acknowledged translation. > > >> > > >>And after that is done, understand that it remains your > responsibility to know these things, and not my responsibility to > "prove" - to bring to your notice things that you are not aware of, it > by itself a thankless thing. When there is a text available, finding > references should be your homework, at least after the exact instances > and stories were given. > > >> > > >>Shankar > > >> > > >> > > >> > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish@ .co. in> > > >>ancient_indian_ astrology > > >>Sat, November 28, 2009 5:08:24 PM > > >>[ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Karna -The Astrologer > > >> > > >> >> > > >> > > >> > > >>>> > > >> > > >> > > >>>>Respected Sir, > > >> > > >>>>You just cannot leave the arguments and flee away . You just > cannot > > >>>>write anything derogatory and unbecoming about characters of > Mhabharata > > >>>>and just leave the podium without either substantiating your > statements > > >>>>or else taking your words back. > > >> > > >>>>Please prove all the instances where Karna ran away from the > battle > > >>>>field. I dont know of any. If you cannot prove any 3 then please > take > > >>>>your words back. > > >> > > >>>>regards/ Bhaskar. > > >> > > >>>>ancient_indian_ astrology, > ShankaraBharadwaj > > >>>>Khandavalli <shankarabharadwaj@ ...> wrote: > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Really? Then, please pick up the text of Vyasa Maha Bharata, and > then > > >>>>try to compare the section, translation of each verse. Then come > back > > >>>>with the verses that are translated wrong, and if the original > does not > > >>>>contain the reference to Karna's running away, then come back and > make > > >>>>an assertion. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Here is where my patience with this thread ends, and I rest > here. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Shankar > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> ____________ _________ _________ __ > > >>>>> Bhaskar bhaskar_jyotish@ ... > > >>>>> ancient_indian_ astrology > > >>>>> Sat, November 28, 2009 3:36:06 PM > > >>>>> [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Karna -The Astrologer > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Sir, > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Guesses you are making. I have read the Mahabharata properly as > a > > >>>>child > > >>>>> and youth. I am not here to teach people to emulate the > character of > > >>>>> Karna or sing songs in his glory or felicitate him as a Hero. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> But at same time not here to supress the true facts, or twist > them or > > >>>>> present something not right. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> regards/bhaskar. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> ancient_indian_ astrology, > ShankaraBharadwaj > > >>>>> Khandavalli <shankarabharadwaj@ ...> wrote: > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > Dear Bhaskar ji, > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > To all the questions, the answer is straight: the image we > bear of > > >>>>> Karna, or of Arjuna, is not the image that Vyasa gives us. The > image > > >>>>we > > >>>>> bear, is built up as a popular notion, not by traditional > scholars but > > >>>>> by those Purana-vairis who tried to show Puranic heroes in bad > light > > >>>>and > > >>>>> tried to glorify the Pauranik villians. If we go to the > original, we > > >>>>get > > >>>>> a totally, totally different picture of all these characters. > The very > > >>>>> reason why I am trying to argue here, is that. > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > Let us go to the originals, let us get the facts straight. > Then > > >>>>there > > >>>>> would be no need to argue on the basis of guesses. > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > Shankar > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > >>>>> > Bhaskar bhaskar_jyotish@ ... > > >>>>> > ancient_indian_ astrology > > >>>>> > Sat, November 28, 2009 2:40:39 PM > > >>>>> > [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Karna -The Astrologer > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > Dear Friends, > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > Shri Bharadwaj ji will provide us the authentic proof for his > > >>>>> statements > > >>>>> > which have been repeated several times during the day in last > two > > >>>>days > > >>>>> > about Karna having fled and run away from war many times. > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > In the meanwhile lets ponder whether can he do this way ? > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > A great warrior like Karna could only be defeated by a greater > > >>>>warrior > > >>>>> > but could he develop fear as to run away ? He being a Pandava > > >>>>brother > > >>>>> > could he stoop low in the ethics of warfare ? He who was a > great > > >>>>Daani > > >>>>> > did he fear anyone as to run away ? He as a Surya Putra and he > as a > > >>>>> > King of his kingdom gifted by Duryodhana could he run away > from a > > >>>>> battle > > >>>>> > field ? And the best part is would Duryodhana a great King > himself, > > >>>>> > could he befreind a person so closely and treat him as his > finest > > >>>>> > friend, ally and brother, could he befriend a warrior who > several > > >>>>> times > > >>>>> > run away from the battlefield ? > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > Sound preposterous and impossible and imaginary. What do you > think ? > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > regards/.Bhaskar. > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 29, 2009 Report Share Posted November 29, 2009 Shanker ji; " samay samay ki baat hai, samay bada balwaan; gauvan chiinni bheel ne, vahi arjun, vahi arjun ke baan. " you must be knowing about this account also. the relevance is that even a person of Krishna ji's caliber encountered such circumstances which weighed heavily against him and he had to act as such as was not expected of him: Karna played his role diligently as per the circumstances as were set for him. Every coin has two sides; Try to Check this example? You have to vote for ideal world leader. There are 3 candidates. 1st -he is associated with corrupt leaders. Has 2 keeps. Chain smoker. Consumes 8-10 pegs whiskey daily. 2nd. Addicted to opium since college.Has been expelled from job 2 times. Chain smoker. Consumes quater of whisky daily. Sleeps till late noon. 3rd- totally vegetarian, good character, takes beer occasionally, deeply influenced by astrology and related practices. MAKE UR DECISION. Now know these three 1st is Franklinn D Roosevelt elected more than once as president of USA,successfully handled the recession of 1920, leaded allied forces to victory in world war. 2nd is Winston Churchill, Prime Minister of Great Britain, won noble prize for literature, successful leader of world war. 3rd is Hitler infamous dictator mainly remembered for holocaust and genocide. Did this information change your view. Every coin has 2 sides' combination of 2 makes it complete. This is applicable to every personality. Circumstances and personal qualities mould what is combined into one personality. so before criticizing or applauding; both sides have to be seen. Hope you got your answer. regards kulbir Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 29, 2009 Report Share Posted November 29, 2009 Dear Friends, To me, (and I guess to many people), Karna was a great character. Probably, he was not having a "lily white" character..rather few shades of grey mixed with it. And hence more likeable as a Human. I do not have any problem with other characters in the epic. They were great too in their respective areas. I don't want to go in to Dharmic /adharmic debate. But we can notice that many great persons like Krishna, Arjuna, Bheesma had respect for Karna. If they could respect Karna, there must be something good. So, let us not sit in the judgment. Yes, I did say that Karna 'fled' from few battles, based on my half-baked knowledge. I have not read original Sanskrit MBH and probably won't do it now. Let us again remember that MBH started as a small lore (Jai or Vijay..or something) which was expounded gradually and came to present form. And Victors always write the history. Ved Vyasa had enough soft corner for Pandava for obvious reasons. BTW, once I read that there is a Temple in Uttarakhand where Duryodhana is the deity...not anybody else. Probably set up in antiquity by followers of Duryodhana. Everything depends on perspective and nothing else. LET us move to another topic. regards Chakraborty On Behalf Of BhaskarSunday, November 29, 2009 12:50 PM Subject: Re: Karna -The Astrologer Dear friends,Its time to end this thread now. We must move on to other topics.Stagnation is not right.It has been conclusively proved that Karna if has to be given a categorycould only fit in the category of a "Hero" and not a "Zero".I request all the Learned members to please present their views in fewlines and bring this thread to a close. Remember that you do not have toside against anyone or take this as an oppurtunity to grind an axe withBhaskar. Bhaskar is not an important friend or foe but a temporaryentity on this earth already been earmarked to be consigned to theflames on a prefixed date. We must speak the truth what our heart andsoul feels and percieves.So please speak out, Neelamji, Manoj Chandran ji, Gopikrishna ji and allother valued members of this great Forum.Love n regards,Bhaskar.This Message was sent from Indian Oil Messaging Gateway, New Delhi, India. The information contained in this electronic message and any attachments to this message are intended for the exclusive use of the addressee(s) and may contain proprietary, confidential or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately and destroy all copies of this message and any attachments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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