Guest guest Posted November 30, 2009 Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 Dear Learned Members, I am fairly new to this group as I have just recently browsed and read through several topics,discussion on this forum. So far I have liked reading many of the posts made by all of you brilliant folks. As far as my knowledge goes I would say it's pretty elementary compared to most of you in this group so I apologize in advance. By the way this is my very first posting so please forgive me if I make any mistakes or if its not my place. My question is what house(s), planet(s), combination or aspects do we look at if we want to know if a person will have celibate/gandharv marriage if there is such a thing in joytisha? The reason I ask this is that I remember reading an ancient text where it defined 9 types of marriages in the ancient days and " Gandharv Marriage " was one of them. I know such marriages existed back in the days but it was mostly limited to Sanyasis/ Yogi types who had marry for the sake of family's wishes or to fulfill and obligation to society. But this would hardly be considered a marriage in conventional sense since the couple will not have physical relations as they had to follow Brahmacharya. Could the same apply in today's modern day..If so how could we see that from a person's birth chart? Vidya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 Vidya ji; i too am new to this forum and vedic astrology; 1. there is no pre-condition like celibacy involved in gandharva vivah. 2. to study a practical and typical case of gandharva vivah ( secretly getting married) you can study the chart of Smt. Indira Gandhi 19-11-1917, 23:20 hrs, Allahabad. Seventh lord is in lagna and lagna lord in seventh. regards Kulbir Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 Dear Members, Kulbir Ji, Thanks for the reply..I understood gandharva vivah as simply celibate marriage or at least that's how it was explained. Are there any classic astrology text which mentioned this type of marriage so I can read more on it. In case of Smt. Indria Gandhi are you saying she had gandharv marriage? Please explain how that is possible as she had given birth to 2 children from her marriage. What is the relation to 7L in lagna or lagna lord in 7th. Vidya , " kulbir " <kulbirbains wrote: > > Vidya ji; > > i too am new to this forum and vedic astrology; > > 1. there is no pre-condition like celibacy involved in gandharva vivah. > > 2. to study a practical and typical case of gandharva vivah ( secretly getting married) you can study the chart of Smt. Indira Gandhi 19-11-1917, 23:20 hrs, Allahabad. > > Seventh lord is in lagna and lagna lord in seventh. > > regards > Kulbir > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 Vidya ji; Kaamsutra considers this type of marriage as a perfect one. What we call today as live in relationship are a modified version of gandharva vivah. i repeat sensual attraction is the very basis of such type of marriage. so nothing such as celibacy vows or religious sanctity attached to it. The main characteristic is that the parents in particular are against such marriage. I don't remember the exact context but just somehow know that Seventh lord in lagna brings in such tendency in native. if the planet is representing foreigners i.e. alien to accepted social norms of native's family/society; chances are more pronounced. Regards. Kulbir , " Vidya " <vidyakmr wrote: > > Dear Members, Kulbir Ji, > > Thanks for the reply..I understood gandharva vivah as simply celibate marriage or at least that's how it was explained. Are there any classic astrology text which mentioned this type of marriage so I can read more on it. > In case of Smt. Indria Gandhi are you saying she had gandharv marriage? Please explain how that is possible as she had given birth to 2 children from her marriage. What is the relation to 7L in lagna or lagna lord in 7th. > > Vidya > > > , " kulbir " <kulbirbains@> wrote: > > > > Vidya ji; > > > > i too am new to this forum and vedic astrology; > > > > 1. there is no pre-condition like celibacy involved in gandharva vivah. > > > > 2. to study a practical and typical case of gandharva vivah ( secretly getting married) you can study the chart of Smt. Indira Gandhi 19-11-1917, 23:20 hrs, Allahabad. > > > > Seventh lord is in lagna and lagna lord in seventh. > > > > regards > > Kulbir > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 Gandharva Vivah is one which is based on sexual overtures towards each other within the two partners. There is no blessings or divine ordinance for this type of vivah. Actually gandharva vivah is between 2 Gandahrvas who like each other are attracted towards each and go ahead to marry till the time they can stay along. We are not gandharvas but manushyas. When we love somebody and have desire to marry her or him, without necessary consent of parents or elders, it can be constituted by normal idiots as gandharva vivaha, but this does not fit the actual meaning in part or complete, because we are not Gandharvas. Try marrying a Gandharva female. She will suck your energy in just one night and leave you impotent forthe next 10 Years. In the first case you must be man enough to meet one. And if you meet a female Gandharva (All of them are always young and never old) try having sex with her, (Thats the only reason she will meet you) and see what happens. All this talk of Gandharva vivah is all bakwass in the manushya context. Bhaskar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 Bhai, what is Kama sutra ? what sutras do they teach ? how to apply them in Life ? Please teach us. regards/Bhaskar. , " kulbir " <kulbirbains wrote: > > Vidya ji; > > Kaamsutra considers this type of marriage as a perfect one. > > What we call today as live in relationship are a modified version of gandharva vivah. > > i repeat sensual attraction is the very basis of such type of marriage. so nothing such as celibacy vows or religious sanctity attached to it. > > The main characteristic is that the parents in particular are against such marriage. > > I don't remember the exact context but just somehow know that Seventh lord in lagna brings in such tendency in native. > > if the planet is representing foreigners i.e. alien to accepted social norms of native's family/society; chances are more pronounced. > > Regards. > Kulbir > > , " Vidya " vidyakmr@ wrote: > > > > Dear Members, Kulbir Ji, > > > > Thanks for the reply..I understood gandharva vivah as simply celibate marriage or at least that's how it was explained. Are there any classic astrology text which mentioned this type of marriage so I can read more on it. > > In case of Smt. Indria Gandhi are you saying she had gandharv marriage? Please explain how that is possible as she had given birth to 2 children from her marriage. What is the relation to 7L in lagna or lagna lord in 7th. > > > > Vidya > > > > > > , " kulbir " <kulbirbains@> wrote: > > > > > > Vidya ji; > > > > > > i too am new to this forum and vedic astrology; > > > > > > 1. there is no pre-condition like celibacy involved in gandharva vivah. > > > > > > 2. to study a practical and typical case of gandharva vivah ( secretly getting married) you can study the chart of Smt. Indira Gandhi 19-11-1917, 23:20 hrs, Allahabad. > > > > > > Seventh lord is in lagna and lagna lord in seventh. > > > > > > regards > > > Kulbir > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 Bhaskar ji; The normal idiots do sometimes use metaphors, so such normal idiots explain 9 types of marriage using metaphors out of which Gandharva vivah is one. Regards Kulbir , " Bhaskar " <bhaskar_jyotish wrote: > > > Gandharva Vivah is one which is based on sexual overtures towards each > other within the two partners. There is no blessings or divine ordinance > for this type of vivah. Actually gandharva vivah is between 2 Gandahrvas > who like each other are attracted towards each and go ahead to marry > till the time they can stay along. We are not gandharvas but manushyas. > When we love somebody and have desire to marry her or him, without > necessary consent of parents or elders, it can be constituted by normal > idiots as gandharva vivaha, but this does not fit the actual meaning in > part or complete, because we are not Gandharvas. > > Try marrying a Gandharva female. She will suck your energy in just one > night and leave you impotent forthe next 10 Years. In the first case you > must be man enough to meet one. And if you meet a female Gandharva (All > of them are always young and never old) try having sex with her, (Thats > the only reason she will meet you) and see what happens. All this talk > of Gandharva vivah is all bakwass in the manushya context. > > Bhaskar. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 Dear Members, Thank you all for your input and responses..I think the meaning of " gandarv vivah " has been corrupted over the years if I am not mistaken. I beg to differ from you Mr. Bhaskar Ji since it was explained to be quite differently. I was told that the couple will live like any normal couple but without passion or physical relations. The couples will have " pure love " for each other and that's how they will relate to each other. I am not too sure about the blessing part since it is God himself who gives blessings in marriages. Vidya , " Bhaskar " <bhaskar_jyotish wrote: > > > Gandharva Vivah is one which is based on sexual overtures towards each > other within the two partners. There is no blessings or divine ordinance > for this type of vivah. Actually gandharva vivah is between 2 Gandahrvas > who like each other are attracted towards each and go ahead to marry > till the time they can stay along. We are not gandharvas but manushyas. > When we love somebody and have desire to marry her or him, without > necessary consent of parents or elders, it can be constituted by normal > idiots as gandharva vivaha, but this does not fit the actual meaning in > part or complete, because we are not Gandharvas. > > Try marrying a Gandharva female. She will suck your energy in just one > night and leave you impotent forthe next 10 Years. In the first case you > must be man enough to meet one. And if you meet a female Gandharva (All > of them are always young and never old) try having sex with her, (Thats > the only reason she will meet you) and see what happens. All this talk > of Gandharva vivah is all bakwass in the manushya context. > > Bhaskar. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 Dear Kulbir ji, Are bhai, jab maine yeh likha tha " normal idiots " toh unlogon ke baare mein likha tha jinhone ise manushyon ke saath jod diya. Bhagwaan ki saugandh hai, ki jab maine yeh likha tha tab aapka khyaal bilkul mere dimaag mein nahin aaya. I am aware of the 9 types of vivah, Brahma, prajapatya, asura etc. regards/Bhaskar. , " kulbir " <kulbirbains wrote: > > Bhaskar ji; > > The normal idiots do sometimes use metaphors, > so such normal idiots explain 9 types of marriage using metaphors out of which Gandharva vivah is one. > > Regards > Kulbir > > , " Bhaskar " bhaskar_jyotish@ wrote: > > > > > > Gandharva Vivah is one which is based on sexual overtures towards each > > other within the two partners. There is no blessings or divine ordinance > > for this type of vivah. Actually gandharva vivah is between 2 Gandahrvas > > who like each other are attracted towards each and go ahead to marry > > till the time they can stay along. We are not gandharvas but manushyas. > > When we love somebody and have desire to marry her or him, without > > necessary consent of parents or elders, it can be constituted by normal > > idiots as gandharva vivaha, but this does not fit the actual meaning in > > part or complete, because we are not Gandharvas. > > > > Try marrying a Gandharva female. She will suck your energy in just one > > night and leave you impotent forthe next 10 Years. In the first case you > > must be man enough to meet one. And if you meet a female Gandharva (All > > of them are always young and never old) try having sex with her, (Thats > > the only reason she will meet you) and see what happens. All this talk > > of Gandharva vivah is all bakwass in the manushya context. > > > > Bhaskar. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 Dear vidya ji, Its okay to differ. If we dont, then how will we argue, and without argument no discussions, and without discussions no fun, and without fun no timepass, and without timepass no learning, and without learning no jindagi, and without jindagi how to do bandagi, and without bandagi how to gain Gods favour, so we must differ ultimately to gain Gods favour. Please tell me if God himself gives blessings in marriages then why do people divorce after receiving gods blessings. please also explain what is pure Love and impure Love ? regards/Bhaskar. , " Vidya " <vidyakmr wrote: > > Dear Members, > > Thank you all for your input and responses..I think the meaning of " gandarv vivah " has been corrupted over the years if I am not mistaken. I beg to differ from you Mr. Bhaskar Ji since it was explained to be quite differently. I was told that the couple will live like any normal couple but without passion or physical relations. The couples will have " pure love " for each other and that's how they will relate to each other. I am not too sure about the blessing part since it is God himself who gives blessings in marriages. > > Vidya > , " Bhaskar " bhaskar_jyotish@ wrote: > > > > > > Gandharva Vivah is one which is based on sexual overtures towards each > > other within the two partners. There is no blessings or divine ordinance > > for this type of vivah. Actually gandharva vivah is between 2 Gandahrvas > > who like each other are attracted towards each and go ahead to marry > > till the time they can stay along. We are not gandharvas but manushyas. > > When we love somebody and have desire to marry her or him, without > > necessary consent of parents or elders, it can be constituted by normal > > idiots as gandharva vivaha, but this does not fit the actual meaning in > > part or complete, because we are not Gandharvas. > > > > Try marrying a Gandharva female. She will suck your energy in just one > > night and leave you impotent forthe next 10 Years. In the first case you > > must be man enough to meet one. And if you meet a female Gandharva (All > > of them are always young and never old) try having sex with her, (Thats > > the only reason she will meet you) and see what happens. All this talk > > of Gandharva vivah is all bakwass in the manushya context. > > > > Bhaskar. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 Dear Vidya Ji, From my understanding also it is a "non-sanctioned" union of two people outside social norms. And logically that union will be one primarily of high passions and unlikely to be celibate, infact exactly the opposite. So may be there is a different definition some where, but this is my understanding of Ghandarva Vivah. Now if we want to look at Celibacy within marriage, then by using the term "Ghandarva Vivah" we might be confusing things. Regards, -Manoj Vidya <vidyakmr Sent: Tue, December 1, 2009 10:25:05 AM Re: Celibate Marriages Dear Members,Thank you all for your input and responses..I think the meaning of "gandarv vivah" has been corrupted over the years if I am not mistaken. I beg to differ from you Mr. Bhaskar Ji since it was explained to be quite differently. I was told that the couple will live like any normal couple but without passion or physical relations. The couples will have "pure love" for each other and that's how they will relate to each other. I am not too sure about the blessing part since it is God himself who gives blessings in marriages. Vidyaancient_indian_ astrology, "Bhaskar" <bhaskar_jyotish@ ...> wrote:>> > Gandharva Vivah is one which is based on sexual overtures towards each> other within the two partners. There is no blessings or divine ordinance> for this type of vivah. Actually gandharva vivah is between 2 Gandahrvas> who like each other are attracted towards each and go ahead to marry> till the time they can stay along. We are not gandharvas but manushyas.> When we love somebody and have desire to marry her or him, without> necessary consent of parents or elders, it can be constituted by normal> idiots as gandharva vivaha, but this does not fit the actual meaning in> part or complete, because we are not Gandharvas.> > Try marrying a Gandharva female. She will suck your energy in just one> night and leave you impotent forthe next 10 Years. In the first case you> must be man enough to meet one. And if you meet a female Gandharva (All> of them are always young and never old) try having sex with her, (Thats> the only reason she will meet you) and see what happens. All this talk> of Gandharva vivah is all bakwass in the manushya context.> > Bhaskar.> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 Dear Vidya Ji, Here is an article from Kamakoti.org on different kinds of marriage. The dharmasastras, including the Manusmrti, mention eight forms of marriage. Brahmo-daivastathaivarsah prajapatya-statha 'surah Gandharvo raksasascaiva Paisavastamah smrtah ----Manusmrti, 3. 21 The eight types are: brahma, daiva, arsa, prajapatya, asura, gandharva, raksasa and paisaca. After the student bachelor has completed his gurukulavasa, his parents approach the parents of a girl belonging to a good family and ask them to give away their daughter in marriage to their son--to make a gift of their daughter (kanyadana) to him. A marriage arranged like this is brahma. In it this girl's family does not give any dowry or jewellery to the boy's family. There is no "commercial transaction" and the goal of a brahma marriage is the dharmic advancement of two families. Of the eight forms of marriage the dharmasastras regard this as the highest. Marrying a girl to a rtvik (priest) during a sacrifice is called "daiva". The parents, in this type, after waiting in vain for a young man to turn up and ask for their daughter's hand, go looking for a groom for her in a place where a sacrifice is being conducted. This type of marriage is considered inferior to brahma. In the sastras womanhood is elevated in that it is the groom's family that has to seeking bride for their son. The third form, "arsa" suggests that it is concerned with the rsis, sages. It seems the marriage of Sukanya to Cyavana Maharsi was of this type. But from the dharmasastras we learn that in arsa the bride is given in exchange for two cows received from the groom. If the term is taken to mean "giving away a girl in marriage to a rsi", we must take it that the girl is married off to an old sage because the parents could not celebrate her marriage according to the brahma rite at the right time. The fact that cows are taken in exchange for the bride shows that the groom does not possess any remarkable qualities. According to the sastras, in marriages of noble kind there is no place for money or anything smacking of a business transaction. In prajapatya there is no trading and kanyadana is a part of it as in the brahma ceremony. But from the name prajapatya it must be inferred that the bride's menarche is imminent and that a child must be begotten soon after the marriage. For this reason the bride's father goes in search of a groom, unlike in the brahma type. The brahma type is a better type of marriage than prajapatya since, in it, the groom's people go seeking a bride who is to be the Grahalaksmi of their household. In the asura type the groom is in no way a match for the girl, but her father or her relatives receive a good deal of money from the man who forces them to marry her to him. In arsa in which cows are given in exchange for the bride there is no compulsion. Nor is the groom wealthy or powerful like his counterpart in the asura type. Many rich men must have taken a second wife according to the asura type of marriage. The next is gandharva. The very mention of it calls to mind Sakuntala and Dusyanta. The gandharva type is the "love marriage" that has such enthusiastic support these days. In the raksasa form the groom battles with the girl's family, overcomes them and carries her away. It was in this manner that krsna Paramatman married Rukmini. The eighth and last is paisaca. In asura even though the girl's willingness to marry the man is of no consequence, at least her people are given money. In raksasa, though violence is done to the girl's family, the marriage itself is not against her wish. Rukmini loved Krsna, did she not? In paisaca the girl's wish does not count, nor is any money or material given to her parents. She is seized against her wish and her family antagonised. We have the brahma type at one end and the paisaca at the other. There cannot be the same system or the same arrangement for everybody. Our sastras have taken into account the differences in temperament and attitude among various sections of people and it is in keeping with the same that they have assigned them different rites, vocations, etc. All our present trouble arises from the failure on the part of men, who advocate the same system for all, to recognise this fact. There are tribals living in the forests who look fierce and have a harsh way of life. But at heart they may be more cultured than townspeople, not to speak of the fact that they are useful to society in many ways. They have frequent family feuds. In consideration of this raksasa and paisava marriages may have to be permitted in their case. After the marriage, they are likely to forget their quarrels and live in peace with each other. Ksatriyas who are physically strong and are used to material pleasure are allowed the gandharva form of marriage and their girls have even the right to choose their husbands as in the svayamvara ceremony. It is for these reasons that the dharmasastras, which are based on the Vedas and which constitute Hindu law, permit eight forms of marriage. In all these eight, the bride and groom have the right to be united in wedlock with the chanting of mantras. But brahma is the highest of the eight forms. In it the bride must not have attained puberty. "Pradanam prak rtoh": -- this statement is in the dharmasastras themselves. A girl's marriage, which has same significance for her that the upanayana has for a boy, must be performed when she is seven years old (or eight years from conception) Unfortunately, in the case of some girls, a groom does not turn up in time for a brahma marriage to be performed. Meanwhile, they grow old and their marriage is conducted in the arsa, daiva, or prajapatya way. Only these types are permitted for Brahmins. But for the rest other types are also allowed. They may marry a girl who has come of age either in the gandharva way or in a svayamvara. The marriage mantras are intended for all the eight forms. It means that they are employed even in the marriage rite of girls who have attained puberty. The two mantras quoted above are recited in all the eight types of marriage. They are addressed by the groom to the bride who comes to him after she has attained puberty and after she has been under the guardianship successively of Soma, gandharva and Agni. The mantras are chanted not only in brahma marriages but also in all other forms. The same are addressed by the groom to his child bride also. Though his marriage is being solemnised to the child bride now, he will start living with her only after she comes of age, after she becomes a young woman. He will bring her home to live with him only after she has come successively under Soma, gandharva and Agni. So he chants the mantras in advance. Nowadays we sometimes perform a number of samskaras together long after they are due according to the sastras. For example, we perform the jatakarma if a son as well as his namakarana and caula during his upanayana when he is 20 or 22 years old and not long before his marriage. Similarly, instead of such postponement of the rites, in the brahma marriage the mantras mentioned above are chanted in advance. I will give you an example in this context. When the brahmacarin performs the samidadhana he prays before Agni to grant him good children. How absurd would it be for our reformers to argue, on the basis of this prayer, that a young boy must have children when he is yet a celibate-student and that he may become a householder only later. The point to note is that the boy prays on advance for good children. The Vedic mantras cited by reformers must be seen in the same light. The mantras are appropriate for the marriage of a girl who has come of age also. This is our reply to the school of opinion represented by the Rt Hon'ble Srinivasa Sastri. If the mantras in question are chanted at the time of the marriage of girls who have come of age, it does not mean that all marriages are to be celebrated after the girls have attained puberty. According to the brahma form of marriage, the girl must not have had her menarche. There is incontrovertible proof for this in the Vedic mantra chanted at the end of the marriage rite. . I told that a girl is under the sway of a gandharva between the time she is able to wear her clothes without anybody's help and her menarche. His name is Visvavasu. The mantra I referred to is chanted by the groom addressing this demigod. "o Visvasu, " it says, " I bow to you. Leave this girl and go. Go to another girl child. Have I not become the husband of this girl? So give her over to me and go to another girl who is not married and lives with her father. " During the wedding the groom performs a puja to this gandharva and prays to him to free the girl from his control. Here is proof that the bride is not under Agni and has not had her menarche The question now is about the verse (from the Manusmrti) cited by the reformists. According to it, a girl may wait three years after her menarche and then seek her husband on her own. There is an answer to this. The general rule according to the dharmasastras is that a girl must be married before she attains puberty: "Pradanam prak rtoh. " What happens if this injunction is not followed? If groom does not come on his own, seeking the girl's hand, her father or brother must look for a groom and marry her off. But if they turn out to be irresponsible or otherwise fail to find a groom? Or if the girl has no guardian, no one to care for her? The lines quoted by the reformers from the Manusmrti apply to such a girl. She may look for a husband on her if none of her relatives, neighbours or well-wishers take the trouble of finding her a groom even after she has attained puberty. Though the reformists quote from the Vedas and sastras in support of their view, they fail to take into account the context in which the relevant passages occur. They see them in isolation. That is why they keep arguing that the customs followed by people steeped in our traditions are contrary to the sastras. In the Chandogya Upanisad there is mention of a sage called Cakrayana Usasti whose wife had not come of age. The reformists do not examine such references in our ancient texts with a cool head but are carried away by their emotions. In the past the common people did not know how to counter the arguments of the reformists. Even so they did not accept their views thinking it best to follow the practices of their elders, of great men. That is why the bill brought twice by the Rt Hon'ble Srinivasa sastri before the legislative council to amend the marriage act (with reference to the age of marriage) did not receive enough support. Later (Harbilas) Sarda introduced the bill which [on its passage] came to be called the Sarda Act. Many people (in the South) think Sarda was a women and call the law named after him the "Sarda Act". The Central legislative assembly was equally divided on the bill -- 50 percent for and 50 per cent against. Then the British asked one of the nominated members to vote in favour of the bill; and thus the minimum age of marriage for girls was raised by a legal enactment. The bill was passed not on the strength of public opinion but because if the government's intervention. The mind of our British rulers worked thus: "The Congress has been demanding svaraj but we have refused to grant it. Let us give it some satisfaction by being of help in inflicting an injury on the (Hindu) religion. " Now things have changed. There is no respect any longer for old customs and traditions. When the Sarda Act came into force in British India, some Sanskrit scholars returned the "Mahamahopadhyaya" title conferred on them by the government. Among them were Pancanana Tarkaratna Bhattacarya of Bengal and Laksmana Sastri Dravid. The latter was settled in Kasi and had the "Dravid" tagged on to his name to make it known that he belonged to the land of the Tamils. How many people today are inspired to rise in protest against the changes introduced by our government in our sastric observances. Our children must be taught the substance and meaning of the sastras in a comprehensive manner. To speak to them about one aspect here and another there will lead to a haphazard and confused view. The half-baked research carried on in the Vedas has given rise to the opinion that the scriptures favour love marriage. The canonical texts must be seen in their entirety. When a subject is examined, its underlying meaning and purpose must be grasped. Also they must be seen in the light of other relevant passages occurring elsewhere. A conclusion must be arrived at only after a thorough inquiry into all points. If the idea is to give importance to carnal pleasure these other forms may be permitted. But brahma is the best if the purpose of the marriage samskara is the advancement of the Self. Regards, -Manoj Manoj Chandran <chandran_manoj Sent: Tue, December 1, 2009 11:09:52 AMRe: Re: Celibate Marriages Dear Vidya Ji, From my understanding also it is a "non-sanctioned" union of two people outside social norms. And logically that union will be one primarily of high passions and unlikely to be celibate, infact exactly the opposite. So may be there is a different definition some where, but this is my understanding of Ghandarva Vivah. Now if we want to look at Celibacy within marriage, then by using the term "Ghandarva Vivah" we might be confusing things. Regards, -Manoj Vidya <vidyakmr >ancient_indian_ astrologyTue, December 1, 2009 10:25:05 AM[ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Celibate Marriages Dear Members,Thank you all for your input and responses..I think the meaning of "gandarv vivah" has been corrupted over the years if I am not mistaken. I beg to differ from you Mr. Bhaskar Ji since it was explained to be quite differently. I was told that the couple will live like any normal couple but without passion or physical relations. The couples will have "pure love" for each other and that's how they will relate to each other. I am not too sure about the blessing part since it is God himself who gives blessings in marriages. Vidyaancient_indian_ astrology, "Bhaskar" <bhaskar_jyotish@ ...> wrote:>> > Gandharva Vivah is one which is based on sexual overtures towards each> other within the two partners. There is no blessings or divine ordinance> for this type of vivah. Actually gandharva vivah is between 2 Gandahrvas> who like each other are attracted towards each and go ahead to marry> till the time they can stay along. We are not gandharvas but manushyas.> When we love somebody and have desire to marry her or him, without> necessary consent of parents or elders, it can be constituted by normal> idiots as gandharva vivaha, but this does not fit the actual meaning in> part or complete, because we are not Gandharvas.> > Try marrying a Gandharva female. She will suck your energy in just one> night and leave you impotent forthe next 10 Years. In the first case you> must be man enough to meet one. And if you meet a female Gandharva (All> of them are always young and never old) try having sex with her, (Thats> the only reason she will meet you) and see what happens. All this talk> of Gandharva vivah is all bakwass in the manushya context.> > Bhaskar.> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 Dear Members, Please aaplog mujhe " ji " nehi boliyah..No one has ever referred to me like that.. Plus it makes me feel a little uncomfortable. By " pure love " I mean someone who puts god first and sees everyone with the same vision rather then thinking he is male/female or any other types of classification. Ofcourse you will see the person with these eyes only but without much attachment or personal feelings getting in the way. So the person intention changes from purely physical love to spiritual or brotherly love. I think a lot of Mahatma's, saints and other great religious figures had that kind of vision towards humanity. Vidya , " Bhaskar " <bhaskar_jyotish wrote: > > > Dear vidya ji, > > Its okay to differ. If we dont, then how will we argue, and without > argument no discussions, and without discussions no fun, and without fun > no timepass, and without timepass no learning, and without learning no > jindagi, and without jindagi how to do bandagi, and without bandagi how > to gain Gods favour, so we must differ ultimately to gain Gods favour. > > Please tell me if God himself gives blessings in marriages then why do > people divorce after receiving gods blessings. > > please also explain what is pure Love and impure Love ? > > regards/Bhaskar. > > > > > , " Vidya " <vidyakmr@> > wrote: > > > > Dear Members, > > > > Thank you all for your input and responses..I think the meaning of > " gandarv vivah " has been corrupted over the years if I am not mistaken. > I beg to differ from you Mr. Bhaskar Ji since it was explained to be > quite differently. I was told that the couple will live like any normal > couple but without passion or physical relations. The couples will have > " pure love " for each other and that's how they will relate to each > other. I am not too sure about the blessing part since it is God himself > who gives blessings in marriages. > > > > Vidya > > , " Bhaskar " > bhaskar_jyotish@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > Gandharva Vivah is one which is based on sexual overtures towards > each > > > other within the two partners. There is no blessings or divine > ordinance > > > for this type of vivah. Actually gandharva vivah is between 2 > Gandahrvas > > > who like each other are attracted towards each and go ahead to marry > > > till the time they can stay along. We are not gandharvas but > manushyas. > > > When we love somebody and have desire to marry her or him, without > > > necessary consent of parents or elders, it can be constituted by > normal > > > idiots as gandharva vivaha, but this does not fit the actual meaning > in > > > part or complete, because we are not Gandharvas. > > > > > > Try marrying a Gandharva female. She will suck your energy in just > one > > > night and leave you impotent forthe next 10 Years. In the first case > you > > > must be man enough to meet one. And if you meet a female Gandharva > (All > > > of them are always young and never old) try having sex with her, > (Thats > > > the only reason she will meet you) and see what happens. All this > talk > > > of Gandharva vivah is all bakwass in the manushya context. > > > > > > Bhaskar. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 Sounds like an "Incubus" in Medieval western lore. ======== - Bhaskar Tuesday, December 01, 2009 6:43 PM Re: Celibate Marriages Dear Manoj ji, Thanks for this Link. I told that a girl is under the sway of a gandharva between the time she is able to wear her clothes without anybody's help and her menarche. His name is Visvavasu. The mantra I referred to is chanted by the groom addressing this demigod. "o Visvasu, " it says, " I bow to you. Leave this girl and go. Go to another girl child. Have I not become the husband of this girl? So give her over to me and go to another girl who is not married and lives with her father. " During the wedding the groom performs a puja to this gandharva and prays to him to free the girl from his control. Here is proof that the bride is not under Agni and has not had her menarche The above passage itself reveals what a Gandharva is. And once a Gandharva gets hold of you, its not easy to get off the hold off the Gandharva, which is what I tried to mean in my previous mails to the readers. They talk of Gandharvas as ordinary. Even today Gandharvas are there on the astral plane and have access and knowledge of the beauties, both men and women, who wish to enjoy more than normal (Oversexed)or are unguarded or soft hearted who are easy prey to the Gandharvas. regards/Bhaskar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 2, 2009 Report Share Posted December 2, 2009 Dear Manoj Ji and Members, Thanks for the link and clarifying Gandarv vivah. Somehow my understanding was completely different than what has been discussed on this forum. Now I can see there is no purity in this type of marriage..It is interesting to note that the highest/best type of marriage is " Brahma Vivah " . I doubt this type is practiced much within the Indian community since most marriages are highly commercialized these days. Vidya , Manoj Chandran <chandran_manoj wrote: > > Dear Vidya Ji, > > Here is an article from Kamakoti.org on different kinds of marriage. > > The dharmasastras, including the Manusmrti, mention eight forms of marriage. >  > Brahmo-daivastathaivarsah > prajapatya-statha 'surah > Gandharvo raksasascaiva > Paisavastamah smrtah > ----Manusmrti, 3. 21 >  > The eight types are: brahma, daiva, arsa, prajapatya, asura, gandharva, raksasa and paisaca. >  > After the student bachelor has completed his gurukulavasa, his parents approach the parents of a girl belonging to a good family and ask them to give away their daughter in marriage to their son--to make a gift of their daughter (kanyadana) to him. A marriage arranged like this is brahma. In it this girl's family does not give any dowry or jewellery to the boy's family. There is no " commercial transaction " and the goal of a brahma marriage is the dharmic advancement of two families. Of the eight forms of marriage the dharmasastras regard this as the highest. >  > Marrying a girl to a rtvik (priest) during a sacrifice is called " daiva " . The parents, in this type, after waiting in vain for a young man to turn up and ask for their daughter's hand, go looking for a groom for her in a place where a sacrifice is being conducted. This type of marriage is considered inferior to brahma. In the sastras womanhood is elevated in that it is the groom's family that has to seeking bride for their son. >  > The third form, " arsa " suggests that it is concerned with the rsis, sages. It seems the marriage of Sukanya to Cyavana Maharsi was of this type. But from the dharmasastras we learn that in arsa the bride is given in exchange for two cows received from the groom. If the term is taken to mean " giving away a girl in marriage to a rsi " , we must take it that the girl is married off to an old sage because the parents could not celebrate her marriage according to the brahma rite at the right time. The fact that cows are taken in exchange for the bride shows that the groom does not possess any remarkable qualities. According to the sastras, in marriages of noble kind there is no place for money or anything smacking of a business transaction. >  > In prajapatya there is no trading and kanyadana is a part of it as in the brahma ceremony. But from the name prajapatya it must be inferred that the bride's menarche is imminent and that a child must be begotten soon after the marriage. For this reason the bride's father goes in search of a groom, unlike in the brahma type. The brahma type is a better type of marriage than prajapatya since, in it, the groom's people go seeking a bride who is to be the Grahalaksmi of their household. >  > In the asura type the groom is in no way a match for the girl, but her father or her relatives receive a good deal of money from the man who forces them to marry her to him. In arsa in which cows are given in exchange for the bride there is no compulsion. Nor is the groom wealthy or powerful like his counterpart in the asura type. Many rich men must have taken a second wife according to the asura type of marriage. >  > The next is gandharva. The very mention of it calls to mind Sakuntala and Dusyanta. The gandharva type is the " love marriage " that has such enthusiastic support these days. >  > In the raksasa form the groom battles with the girl's family, overcomes them and carries her away. It was in this manner that krsna Paramatman married Rukmini. >  > The eighth and last is paisaca. In asura even though the girl's willingness to marry the man is of no consequence, at least her people are given money. In raksasa, though violence is done to the girl's family, the marriage itself is not against her wish. Rukmini loved Krsna, did she not? In paisaca the girl's wish does not count, nor is any money or material given to her parents. She is seized against her wish and her family antagonised. >  > We have the brahma type at one end and the paisaca at the other. There cannot be the same system or the same arrangement for everybody. Our sastras have taken into account the differences in temperament and attitude among various sections of people and it is in keeping with the same that they have assigned them different rites, vocations, etc. All our present trouble arises from the failure on the part of men, who advocate the same system for all, to recognise this fact. >  > There are tribals living in the forests who look fierce and have a harsh way of life. But at heart they may be more cultured than townspeople, not to speak of the fact that they are useful to society in many ways. They have frequent family feuds. In consideration of this raksasa and paisava marriages may have to be permitted in their case. After the marriage, they are likely to forget their quarrels and live in peace with each other. Ksatriyas who are physically strong and are used to material pleasure are allowed the gandharva form of marriage and their girls have even the right to choose their husbands as in the svayamvara ceremony. >  > It is for these reasons that the dharmasastras, which are based on the Vedas and which constitute Hindu law, permit eight forms of marriage. In all these eight, the bride and groom have the right to be united in wedlock with the chanting of mantras. But brahma is the highest of the eight forms. In it the bride must not have attained puberty. " Pradanam prak rtoh " : -- this statement is in the dharmasastras themselves. A girl's marriage, which has same significance for her that the upanayana has for a boy, must be performed when she is seven years old (or eight years from conception) >  > Unfortunately, in the case of some girls, a groom does not turn up in time for a brahma marriage to be performed. Meanwhile, they grow old and their marriage is conducted in the arsa, daiva, or prajapatya way. Only these types are permitted for Brahmins. But for the rest other types are also allowed. They may marry a girl who has come of age either in the gandharva way or in a svayamvara. >  > The marriage mantras are intended for all the eight forms. It means that they are employed even in the marriage rite of girls who have attained puberty. The two mantrasquoted aboveare recited in all the eight types of marriage. They are addressed by the groom to the bride who comes to him after she has attained puberty and after she has been under the guardianship successively of Soma, gandharva and Agni. The mantras are chanted not only in brahma marriages but also in all other forms. The same are addressed by the groom to his child bride also. Though his marriage is being solemnised to the child bride now, he will start living with her only after she comes of age, after she becomes a young woman. He will bring her home to live with him only after she has come successively under Soma, gandharva and Agni. So he chants the mantras in advance. >  > Nowadays we sometimes perform a number of samskaras together long after they are due according to the sastras. For example, we perform the jatakarma if a son as well as his namakarana and cauladuring his upanayana when he is 20 or 22 years old and not long before his marriage. Similarly, instead of such postponement of the rites, in the brahma marriage the mantras mentioned above are chanted in advance. >  > I will give you an example in this context. When the brahmacarin performs the samidadhana he prays before Agni to grant him good children. How absurd would it be for our reformers to argue, on the basis of this prayer, that a young boy must have children when he is yet a celibate-student and that he may become a householder only later. The point to note is that the boy prays on advance for good children. The Vedic mantras cited by reformers must be seen in the same light. >  > The mantras are appropriate for the marriage of a girlwho has come of age also. >  > This is our reply to the school of opinion represented by the Rt Hon'ble Srinivasa Sastri. If the mantras in question are chanted at the time of the marriage of girls who have come of age, it does not mean that all marriages are to be celebrated after the girls have attained puberty. According to the brahma form of marriage, the girl must not have had her menarche. There is incontrovertible proof for this in the Vedic mantra chanted at the end of the marriage rite. . > I told that a girl is under the sway of a gandharva between the time she is able to wear her clothes without anybody's help and her menarche. His name is Visvavasu. The mantra I referred to is chanted by the groom addressing this demigod. " o Visvasu, " it says, " I bow to you. Leave this girl and go. Go to another girl child. Have I not become the husband of this girl? So give her over to me and go to another girl who is not married and lives with her father. " During the wedding the groom performs a puja to this gandharva and prays to him to free the girl from his control. Here is proof that the bride is not under Agni and has not had her menarche >  > The question now is about the verse (from the Manusmrti) cited by the reformists. According to it, a girl may wait three years after her menarche and then seek her husband on her own. >  > There is an answer to this. The general rule according to the dharmasastras is that a girl must be married before she attains puberty: " Pradanam prak rtoh. " What happens if this injunction is not followed? If groom does not come on his own, seeking the girl's hand, her father or brother must look for a groom and marry her off. But if they turn out to be irresponsible or otherwise fail to find a groom? Or if the girl has no guardian, no one to care for her? The lines quoted by the reformers from the Manusmrti apply to such a girl. She may look for a husband on her if none of her relatives, neighbours or well-wishers take the trouble of finding her a groom even after she has attained puberty. >  > Though the reformists quote from the Vedas and sastras in support of their view, they fail to take into account the context in which the relevant passages occur. They see them in isolation. That is why they keep arguing that the customs followed by people steeped in our traditions are contrary to the sastras. >  > In the Chandogya Upanisad there is mention of a sage called Cakrayana Usasti whose wife had not come of age. The reformists do not examine such references in our ancient texts with a cool head but are carried away by their emotions. >  > In the past the common people did not know how to counter the arguments of the reformists. Even so they did not accept their views thinking it best to follow the practices of their elders, of great men. That is why the bill brought twice by the Rt Hon'ble Srinivasa sastri before the legislative council to amend the marriage act (with reference to the age of marriage) did not receive enough support. Later (Harbilas) Sarda introduced the bill which [on its passage] came to be called the Sarda Act. Many people (in the South) think Sarda was a women and call the law named after him the " Sarda Act " . The Central legislative assembly was equally divided on the bill -- 50 percent for and 50 per cent against. Then the British asked one of the nominated members to vote in favour of the bill; and thus the minimum age of marriage for girls was raised by a legal enactment. The bill was passed not on the strength of public opinion but because if the government's > intervention. The mind of our British rulers worked thus: " The Congress has been demanding svaraj but we have refused to grant it. Let us give it some satisfaction by being of help in inflicting an injury on the (Hindu) religion. " >  > Now things have changed. There is no respect any longer for old customs and traditions. When the Sarda Act came into force in British India, some Sanskrit scholars returned the " Mahamahopadhyaya " title conferred on them by the government. Among them were Pancanana Tarkaratna Bhattacarya of Bengal and Laksmana Sastri Dravid. The latter was settled in Kasi and had the " Dravid " tagged on to his name to make it known that he belonged to the land of the Tamils. How many people today are inspired to rise in protest against the changes introduced by our government in our sastric observances. >  > Our children must be taught the substance and meaning of the sastras in a comprehensive manner. To speak to them about one aspect here and another there will lead to a haphazard and confused view. The half-baked research carried on in the Vedas has given rise to the opinion that the scriptures favour love marriage. The canonical texts must be seen in their entirety. When a subject is examined, its underlying meaning and purpose must be grasped. Also they must be seen in the light of other relevant passages occurring elsewhere. A conclusion must be arrived at only after a thorough inquiry into all points. >  >  If the idea is to give importance to carnal pleasure these other forms may be permitted. But brahma is the best if the purpose of the marriage samskara is the advancement of the Self. >  Regards, >  -Manoj >  > > > > > ________________________________ > Manoj Chandran <chandran_manoj > > Tue, December 1, 2009 11:09:52 AM > Re: Re: Celibate Marriages > >  > Dear Vidya Ji, > > From my understanding also it is a " non-sanctioned " union of two people outside social norms. And logically that union will be one primarily of high passions and unlikely to be celibate, infact exactly the opposite. So may be there is a different definition some where, but this is my understanding of Ghandarva Vivah. > > Now if we want to look at Celibacy within marriage, then by using the term " Ghandarva Vivah " we might be confusing things. >  > Regards, >  -Manoj >  > > > > > ________________________________ > Vidya <vidyakmr > > ancient_indian_ astrology > Tue, December 1, 2009 10:25:05 AM > [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Celibate Marriages > >  > Dear Members, > > Thank you all for your input and responses..I think the meaning of " gandarv vivah " has been corrupted over the years if I am not mistaken. I beg to differ from you Mr. Bhaskar Ji since it was explained to be quite differently. I was told that the couple will live like any normal couple but without passion or physical relations. The couples will have " pure love " for each other and that's how they will relate to each other. I am not too sure about the blessing part since it is God himself who gives blessings in marriages. > > Vidya > ancient_indian_ astrology, " Bhaskar " <bhaskar_jyotish@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > Gandharva Vivah is one which is based on sexual overtures towards each > > other within the two partners. There is no blessings or divine ordinance > > for this type of vivah. Actually gandharva vivah is between 2 Gandahrvas > > who like each other are attracted towards each and go ahead to marry > > till the time they can stay along. We are not gandharvas but manushyas. > > When we love somebody and have desire to marry her or him, without > > necessary consent of parents or elders, it can be constituted by normal > > idiots as gandharva vivaha, but this does not fit the actual meaning in > > part or complete, because we are not Gandharvas. > > > > Try marrying a Gandharva female. She will suck your energy in just one > > night and leave you impotent forthe next 10 Years. In the first case you > > must be man enough to meet one. And if you meet a female Gandharva (All > > of them are always young and never old) try having sex with her, (Thats > > the only reason she will meet you) and see what happens. All this talk > > of Gandharva vivah is all bakwass in the manushya context. > > > > Bhaskar. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 2, 2009 Report Share Posted December 2, 2009 Manoj ji; you missed swayamvara. Regards Kulbir Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 2, 2009 Report Share Posted December 2, 2009 Dear Manoj-ji, It appears that Brahma Vivaha was supported by many as the best type of marriage. However, the same marraige practice of 'Bal Vivaha' led to 'Bal Vidhava' (child widows)..girls married to old grooms, even in death beds. In 19th Century Bengal, people were socially pressurized to get their daughters married by 7-8th year ..which was known as "Gauri/Gouri Daan'. And as per prevailing 'Kuleen system' the groom should be from a equal kul (vansha/vamsha). This led to many girls getting married to single person (polygamy) who might be even at his death bed. Some girls even became window within a year of her marraige--without even visiting her in-laws. And sometimes getting burnt as 'Sati' ........ This was the reason that many reformist took up the case for marraige at later age. Frankly, when we support a system, then we should see that it is practicable. When young girls are married off, it is important to see that they are getting married off to young person. And the in-laws need to be dharmic enough to follow all the requirements prescribed in Shastra-s for a young family to start their life -- Not harrasing for DOWRY and inflicting pain as it happens. regards Chakraborty On Behalf Of VidyaWednesday, December 02, 2009 7:20 AM Subject: Re: Celibate Marriages Dear Manoj Ji and Members,Thanks for the link and clarifying Gandarv vivah. Somehow my understanding was completely different than what has been discussed on this forum. Now I can see there is no purity in this type of marriage..It is interesting to note that the highest/best type of marriage is "Brahma Vivah". I doubt this type is practiced much within the Indian community since most marriages are highly commercialized these days.Vidya , Manoj Chandran <chandran_manoj wrote:>> Dear Vidya Ji,> > Here is an article from Kamakoti.org on different kinds of marriage.> > The dharmasastras, including the Manusmrti, mention eight forms of marriage. >  > Brahmo-daivastathaivarsah> prajapatya-statha 'surah> Gandharvo raksasascaiva> Paisavastamah smrtah> ----Manusmrti, 3. 21>  > The eight types are: brahma, daiva, arsa, prajapatya, asura, gandharva, raksasa and paisaca. >  > After the student bachelor has completed his gurukulavasa, his parents approach the parents of a girl belonging to a good family and ask them to give away their daughter in marriage to their son--to make a gift of their daughter (kanyadana) to him. A marriage arranged like this is brahma. In it this girl's family does not give any dowry or jewellery to the boy's family. There is no "commercial transaction" and the goal of a brahma marriage is the dharmic advancement of two families. Of the eight forms of marriage the dharmasastras regard this as the highest. >  > Marrying a girl to a rtvik (priest) during a sacrifice is called "daiva". The parents, in this type, after waiting in vain for a young man to turn up and ask for their daughter's hand, go looking for a groom for her in a place where a sacrifice is being conducted. This type of marriage is considered inferior to brahma. In the sastras womanhood is elevated in that it is the groom's family that has to seeking bride for their son. >  > The third form, "arsa" suggests that it is concerned with the rsis, sages. It seems the marriage of Sukanya to Cyavana Maharsi was of this type. But from the dharmasastras we learn that in arsa the bride is given in exchange for two cows received from the groom. If the term is taken to mean "giving away a girl in marriage to a rsi", we must take it that the girl is married off to an old sage because the parents could not celebrate her marriage according to the brahma rite at the right time. The fact that cows are taken in exchange for the bride shows that the groom does not possess any remarkable qualities. According to the sastras, in marriages of noble kind there is no place for money or anything smacking of a business transaction. >  > In prajapatya there is no trading and kanyadana is a part of it as in the brahma ceremony. But from the name prajapatya it must be inferred that the bride's menarche is imminent and that a child must be begotten soon after the marriage. For this reason the bride's father goes in search of a groom, unlike in the brahma type. The brahma type is a better type of marriage than prajapatya since, in it, the groom's people go seeking a bride who is to be the Grahalaksmi of their household. >  > In the asura type the groom is in no way a match for the girl, but her father or her relatives receive a good deal of money from the man who forces them to marry her to him. In arsa in which cows are given in exchange for the bride there is no compulsion. Nor is the groom wealthy or powerful like his counterpart in the asura type. Many rich men must have taken a second wife according to the asura type of marriage. >  > The next is gandharva. The very mention of it calls to mind Sakuntala and Dusyanta. The gandharva type is the "love marriage" that has such enthusiastic support these days. >  > In the raksasa form the groom battles with the girl's family, overcomes them and carries her away. It was in this manner that krsna Paramatman married Rukmini. >  > The eighth and last is paisaca. In asura even though the girl's willingness to marry the man is of no consequence, at least her people are given money. In raksasa, though violence is done to the girl's family, the marriage itself is not against her wish. Rukmini loved Krsna, did she not? In paisaca the girl's wish does not count, nor is any money or material given to her parents. She is seized against her wish and her family antagonised. >  > We have the brahma type at one end and the paisaca at the other. There cannot be the same system or the same arrangement for everybody. Our sastras have taken into account the differences in temperament and attitude among various sections of people and it is in keeping with the same that they have assigned them different rites, vocations, etc. All our present trouble arises from the failure on the part of men, who advocate the same system for all, to recognise this fact. >  > There are tribals living in the forests who look fierce and have a harsh way of life. But at heart they may be more cultured than townspeople, not to speak of the fact that they are useful to society in many ways. They have frequent family feuds. In consideration of this raksasa and paisava marriages may have to be permitted in their case. After the marriage, they are likely to forget their quarrels and live in peace with each other. Ksatriyas who are physically strong and are used to material pleasure are allowed the gandharva form of marriage and their girls have even the right to choose their husbands as in the svayamvara ceremony. >  > It is for these reasons that the dharmasastras, which are based on the Vedas and which constitute Hindu law, permit eight forms of marriage. In all these eight, the bride and groom have the right to be united in wedlock with the chanting of mantras. But brahma is the highest of the eight forms. In it the bride must not have attained puberty. "Pradanam prak rtoh": -- this statement is in the dharmasastras themselves. A girl's marriage, which has same significance for her that the upanayana has for a boy, must be performed when she is seven years old (or eight years from conception)>  > Unfortunately, in the case of some girls, a groom does not turn up in time for a brahma marriage to be performed. Meanwhile, they grow old and their marriage is conducted in the arsa, daiva, or prajapatya way. Only these types are permitted for Brahmins. But for the rest other types are also allowed. They may marry a girl who has come of age either in the gandharva way or in a svayamvara. >  > The marriage mantras are intended for all the eight forms. It means that they are employed even in the marriage rite of girls who have attained puberty. The two mantrasquoted aboveare recited in all the eight types of marriage. They are addressed by the groom to the bride who comes to him after she has attained puberty and after she has been under the guardianship successively of Soma, gandharva and Agni. The mantras are chanted not only in brahma marriages but also in all other forms. The same are addressed by the groom to his child bride also. Though his marriage is being solemnised to the child bride now, he will start living with her only after she comes of age, after she becomes a young woman. He will bring her home to live with him only after she has come successively under Soma, gandharva and Agni. So he chants the mantras in advance. >  > Nowadays we sometimes perform a number of samskaras together long after they are due according to the sastras. For example, we perform the jatakarma if a son as well as his namakarana and cauladuring his upanayana when he is 20 or 22 years old and not long before his marriage. Similarly, instead of such postponement of the rites, in the brahma marriage the mantras mentioned above are chanted in advance. >  > I will give you an example in this context. When the brahmacarin performs the samidadhana he prays before Agni to grant him good children. How absurd would it be for our reformers to argue, on the basis of this prayer, that a young boy must have children when he is yet a celibate-student and that he may become a householder only later. The point to note is that the boy prays on advance for good children. The Vedic mantras cited by reformers must be seen in the same light. >  > The mantras are appropriate for the marriage of a girl who has come of age also. >  > This is our reply to the school of opinion represented by the Rt Hon'ble Srinivasa Sastri. If the mantras in question are chanted at the time of the marriage of girls who have come of age, it does not mean that all marriages are to be celebrated after the girls have attained puberty. According to the brahma form of marriage, the girl must not have had her menarche. There is incontrovertible proof for this in the Vedic mantra chanted at the end of the marriage rite. . > I told that a girl is under the sway of a gandharva between the time she is able to wear her clothes without anybody's help and her menarche. His name is Visvavasu. The mantra I referred to is chanted by the groom addressing this demigod. "o Visvasu, " it says, " I bow to you. Leave this girl and go. Go to another girl child. Have I not become the husband of this girl? So give her over to me and go to another girl who is not married and lives with her father. " During the wedding the groom performs a puja to this gandharva and prays to him to free the girl from his control. Here is proof that the bride is not under Agni and has not had her menarche>  > The question now is about the verse (from the Manusmrti) cited by the reformists. According to it, a girl may wait three years after her menarche and then seek her husband on her own. >  > There is an answer to this. The general rule according to the dharmasastras is that a girl must be married before she attains puberty: "Pradanam prak rtoh. " What happens if this injunction is not followed? If groom does not come on his own, seeking the girl's hand, her father or brother must look for a groom and marry her off. But if they turn out to be irresponsible or otherwise fail to find a groom? Or if the girl has no guardian, no one to care for her? The lines quoted by the reformers from the Manusmrti apply to such a girl. She may look for a husband on her if none of her relatives, neighbours or well-wishers take the trouble of finding her a groom even after she has attained puberty. >  > Though the reformists quote from the Vedas and sastras in support of their view, they fail to take into account the context in which the relevant passages occur. They see them in isolation. That is why they keep arguing that the customs followed by people steeped in our traditions are contrary to the sastras. >  > In the Chandogya Upanisad there is mention of a sage called Cakrayana Usasti whose wife had not come of age. The reformists do not examine such references in our ancient texts with a cool head but are carried away by their emotions. >  > In the past the common people did not know how to counter the arguments of the reformists. Even so they did not accept their views thinking it best to follow the practices of their elders, of great men. That is why the bill brought twice by the Rt Hon'ble Srinivasa sastri before the legislative council to amend the marriage act (with reference to the age of marriage) did not receive enough support. Later (Harbilas) Sarda introduced the bill which [on its passage] came to be called the Sarda Act. Many people (in the South) think Sarda was a women and call the law named after him the "Sarda Act". The Central legislative assembly was equally divided on the bill -- 50 percent for and 50 per cent against. Then the British asked one of the nominated members to vote in favour of the bill; and thus the minimum age of marriage for girls was raised by a legal enactment. The bill was passed not on the strength of public opinion but because if the government's> intervention. The mind of our British rulers worked thus: "The Congress has been demanding svaraj but we have refused to grant it. Let us give it some satisfaction by being of help in inflicting an injury on the (Hindu) religion. ">  > Now things have changed. There is no respect any longer for old customs and traditions. When the Sarda Act came into force in British India, some Sanskrit scholars returned the "Mahamahopadhyaya" title conferred on them by the government. Among them were Pancanana Tarkaratna Bhattacarya of Bengal and Laksmana Sastri Dravid. The latter was settled in Kasi and had the "Dravid" tagged on to his name to make it known that he belonged to the land of the Tamils. How many people today are inspired to rise in protest against the changes introduced by our government in our sastric observances. >  > Our children must be taught the substance and meaning of the sastras in a comprehensive manner. To speak to them about one aspect here and another there will lead to a haphazard and confused view. The half-baked research carried on in the Vedas has given rise to the opinion that the scriptures favour love marriage. The canonical texts must be seen in their entirety. When a subject is examined, its underlying meaning and purpose must be grasped. Also they must be seen in the light of other relevant passages occurring elsewhere. A conclusion must be arrived at only after a thorough inquiry into all points. >  >  If the idea is to give importance to carnal pleasure these other forms may be permitted. But brahma is the best if the purpose of the marriage samskara is the advancement of the Self. >  Regards,>  -Manoj>  > > > > > ________________________________> Manoj Chandran <chandran_manoj> > Tue, December 1, 2009 11:09:52 AM> Re: Re: Celibate Marriages> >  > Dear Vidya Ji,> > From my understanding also it is a "non-sanctioned" union of two people outside social norms. And logically that union will be one primarily of high passions and unlikely to be celibate, infact exactly the opposite. So may be there is a different definition some where, but this is my understanding of Ghandarva Vivah.> > Now if we want to look at Celibacy within marriage, then by using the term "Ghandarva Vivah" we might be confusing things.>  > Regards,>  -Manoj>  > > > > > ________________________________> Vidya <vidyakmr >> ancient_indian_ astrology> Tue, December 1, 2009 10:25:05 AM> [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Celibate Marriages> >  > Dear Members,> > Thank you all for your input and responses..I think the meaning of "gandarv vivah" has been corrupted over the years if I am not mistaken. I beg to differ from you Mr. Bhaskar Ji since it was explained to be quite differently. I was told that the couple will live like any normal couple but without passion or physical relations. The couples will have "pure love" for each other and that's how they will relate to each other. I am not too sure about the blessing part since it is God himself who gives blessings in marriages. > > Vidya> ancient_indian_ astrology, "Bhaskar" <bhaskar_jyotish@ ...> wrote:> >> > > > Gandharva Vivah is one which is based on sexual overtures towards each> > other within the two partners. There is no blessings or divine ordinance> > for this type of vivah. Actually gandharva vivah is between 2 Gandahrvas> > who like each other are attracted towards each and go ahead to marry> > till the time they can stay along. We are not gandharvas but manushyas.> > When we love somebody and have desire to marry her or him, without> > necessary consent of parents or elders, it can be constituted by normal> > idiots as gandharva vivaha, but this does not fit the actual meaning in> > part or complete, because we are not Gandharvas.> > > > Try marrying a Gandharva female. She will suck your energy in just one> > night and leave you impotent forthe next 10 Years. In the first case you> > must be man enough to meet one. And if you meet a female Gandharva (All> > of them are always young and never old) try having sex with her, (Thats> > the only reason she will meet you) and see what happens. All this talk> > of Gandharva vivah is all bakwass in the manushya context.> > > > Bhaskar.> >>This Message was sent from Indian Oil Messaging Gateway, New Delhi, India. The information contained in this electronic message and any attachments to this message are intended for the exclusive use of the addressee(s) and may contain proprietary, confidential or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately and destroy all copies of this message and any attachments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 2, 2009 Report Share Posted December 2, 2009 Dear Kulbir Ji, I am not an expert in this. I just wanted to send an article to Ms Vidya to show her what Gandharva Vivah really was. Usually I like to show the whole article and not just "cut and paste" parts just to be fair to the person who wrote the article. You make a good point about Swayamvara, but I am guessing it is not part of Manu Smriti, which is what this article was talking about. Regards, -Manoj kulbir <kulbirbains Sent: Tue, December 1, 2009 9:20:58 PM Re: Celibate Marriages Manoj ji;you missed swayamvara.RegardsKulbir Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 2, 2009 Report Share Posted December 2, 2009 Dear Chakraborty Ji, Thanks for your views. I completely agree with you 100%. I am not advocating or supporting the views expressed in the article. It is only for information. However those are the views of the Late Shri Chandrasekharendra Saraswathy of Kamakoti Peetam. He was a Great, yet very traditional Acharya with very traditional views. I am personally a reformist person, but I still very much respect true traditionalists for their views as well, as long as it is authentic. I have personally as a youngster experienced the Greatness and Compassion of this Acharya, even though I don't always agree with his very traditional views. One of his Greatness was he never wavered or watered down his views just for popular public consumption all the way till his death. Regards, -Manoj "Chakraborty, PL" <CHAKRABORTYP2 Tue, December 1, 2009 10:08:57 PMRE: Re: Celibate Marriages Dear Manoj-ji, It appears that Brahma Vivaha was supported by many as the best type of marriage. However, the same marraige practice of 'Bal Vivaha' led to 'Bal Vidhava' (child widows)..girls married to old grooms, even in death beds. In 19th Century Bengal, people were socially pressurized to get their daughters married by 7-8th year ..which was known as "Gauri/Gouri Daan'. And as per prevailing 'Kuleen system' the groom should be from a equal kul (vansha/vamsha) . This led to many girls getting married to single person (polygamy) who might be even at his death bed. Some girls even became window within a year of her marraige--without even visiting her in-laws. And sometimes getting burnt as 'Sati' ........ This was the reason that many reformist took up the case for marraige at later age. Frankly, when we support a system, then we should see that it is practicable. When young girls are married off, it is important to see that they are getting married off to young person. And the in-laws need to be dharmic enough to follow all the requirements prescribed in Shastra-s for a young family to start their life -- Not harrasing for DOWRY and inflicting pain as it happens. regards Chakraborty ancient_indian_ astrology [ancient_ indian_astrology ] On Behalf Of VidyaWednesday, December 02, 2009 7:20 AMancient_indian_ astrology[ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Celibate Marriages Dear Manoj Ji and Members,Thanks for the link and clarifying Gandarv vivah. Somehow my understanding was completely different than what has been discussed on this forum. Now I can see there is no purity in this type of marriage..It is interesting to note that the highest/best type of marriage is "Brahma Vivah". I doubt this type is practiced much within the Indian community since most marriages are highly commercialized these days.Vidyaancient_indian_ astrology, Manoj Chandran <chandran_manoj@ ...> wrote:>> Dear Vidya Ji,> > Here is an article from Kamakoti.org on different kinds of marriage.> > The dharmasastras, including the Manusmrti, mention eight forms of marriage. >  > Brahmo-daivastathai varsah> prajapatya-statha 'surah> Gandharvo raksasascaiva> Paisavastamah smrtah> ----Manusmrti, 3. 21>  > The eight types are: brahma, daiva, arsa, prajapatya, asura, gandharva, raksasa and paisaca. >  > After the student bachelor has completed his gurukulavasa, his parents approach the parents of a girl belonging to a good family and ask them to give away their daughter in marriage to their son--to make a gift of their daughter (kanyadana) to him. A marriage arranged like this is brahma. In it this girl's family does not give any dowry or jewellery to the boy's family. There is no "commercial transaction" and the goal of a brahma marriage is the dharmic advancement of two families. Of the eight forms of marriage the dharmasastras regard this as the highest. >  > Marrying a girl to a rtvik (priest) during a sacrifice is called "daiva". The parents, in this type, after waiting in vain for a young man to turn up and ask for their daughter's hand, go looking for a groom for her in a place where a sacrifice is being conducted. This type of marriage is considered inferior to brahma. In the sastras womanhood is elevated in that it is the groom's family that has to seeking bride for their son. >  > The third form, "arsa" suggests that it is concerned with the rsis, sages. It seems the marriage of Sukanya to Cyavana Maharsi was of this type. But from the dharmasastras we learn that in arsa the bride is given in exchange for two cows received from the groom. If the term is taken to mean "giving away a girl in marriage to a rsi", we must take it that the girl is married off to an old sage because the parents could not celebrate her marriage according to the brahma rite at the right time. The fact that cows are taken in exchange for the bride shows that the groom does not possess any remarkable qualities. According to the sastras, in marriages of noble kind there is no place for money or anything smacking of a business transaction. >  > In prajapatya there is no trading and kanyadana is a part of it as in the brahma ceremony. But from the name prajapatya it must be inferred that the bride's menarche is imminent and that a child must be begotten soon after the marriage. For this reason the bride's father goes in search of a groom, unlike in the brahma type. The brahma type is a better type of marriage than prajapatya since, in it, the groom's people go seeking a bride who is to be the Grahalaksmi of their household. >  > In the asura type the groom is in no way a match for the girl, but her father or her relatives receive a good deal of money from the man who forces them to marry her to him. In arsa in which cows are given in exchange for the bride there is no compulsion. Nor is the groom wealthy or powerful like his counterpart in the asura type. Many rich men must have taken a second wife according to the asura type of marriage. >  > The next is gandharva. The very mention of it calls to mind Sakuntala and Dusyanta. The gandharva type is the "love marriage" that has such enthusiastic support these days. >  > In the raksasa form the groom battles with the girl's family, overcomes them and carries her away. It was in this manner that krsna Paramatman married Rukmini. >  > The eighth and last is paisaca. In asura even though the girl's willingness to marry the man is of no consequence, at least her people are given money. In raksasa, though violence is done to the girl's family, the marriage itself is not against her wish. Rukmini loved Krsna, did she not? In paisaca the girl's wish does not count, nor is any money or material given to her parents. She is seized against her wish and her family antagonised. >  > We have the brahma type at one end and the paisaca at the other. There cannot be the same system or the same arrangement for everybody. Our sastras have taken into account the differences in temperament and attitude among various sections of people and it is in keeping with the same that they have assigned them different rites, vocations, etc. All our present trouble arises from the failure on the part of men, who advocate the same system for all, to recognise this fact. >  > There are tribals living in the forests who look fierce and have a harsh way of life. But at heart they may be more cultured than townspeople, not to speak of the fact that they are useful to society in many ways. They have frequent family feuds. In consideration of this raksasa and paisava marriages may have to be permitted in their case. After the marriage, they are likely to forget their quarrels and live in peace with each other. Ksatriyas who are physically strong and are used to material pleasure are allowed the gandharva form of marriage and their girls have even the right to choose their husbands as in the svayamvara ceremony. >  > It is for these reasons that the dharmasastras, which are based on the Vedas and which constitute Hindu law, permit eight forms of marriage. In all these eight, the bride and groom have the right to be united in wedlock with the chanting of mantras. But brahma is the highest of the eight forms. In it the bride must not have attained puberty. "Pradanam prak rtoh": -- this statement is in the dharmasastras themselves. A girl's marriage, which has same significance for her that the upanayana has for a boy, must be performed when she is seven years old (or eight years from conception)>  > Unfortunately, in the case of some girls, a groom does not turn up in time for a brahma marriage to be performed. Meanwhile, they grow old and their marriage is conducted in the arsa, daiva, or prajapatya way. Only these types are permitted for Brahmins. But for the rest other types are also allowed. They may marry a girl who has come of age either in the gandharva way or in a svayamvara. >  > The marriage mantras are intended for all the eight forms. It means that they are employed even in the marriage rite of girls who have attained puberty. The two mantrasquoted aboveare recited in all the eight types of marriage. They are addressed by the groom to the bride who comes to him after she has attained puberty and after she has been under the guardianship successively of Soma, gandharva and Agni. The mantras are chanted not only in brahma marriages but also in all other forms. The same are addressed by the groom to his child bride also. Though his marriage is being solemnised to the child bride now, he will start living with her only after she comes of age, after she becomes a young woman. He will bring her home to live with him only after she has come successively under Soma, gandharva and Agni. So he chants the mantras in advance. >  > Nowadays we sometimes perform a number of samskaras together long after they are due according to the sastras. For example, we perform the jatakarma if a son as well as his namakarana and cauladuring his upanayana when he is 20 or 22 years old and not long before his marriage. Similarly, instead of such postponement of the rites, in the brahma marriage the mantras mentioned above are chanted in advance. >  > I will give you an example in this context. When the brahmacarin performs the samidadhana he prays before Agni to grant him good children. How absurd would it be for our reformers to argue, on the basis of this prayer, that a young boy must have children when he is yet a celibate-student and that he may become a householder only later. The point to note is that the boy prays on advance for good children. The Vedic mantras cited by reformers must be seen in the same light. >  > The mantras are appropriate for the marriage of a girl who has come of age also. >  > This is our reply to the school of opinion represented by the Rt Hon'ble Srinivasa Sastri. If the mantras in question are chanted at the time of the marriage of girls who have come of age, it does not mean that all marriages are to be celebrated after the girls have attained puberty. According to the brahma form of marriage, the girl must not have had her menarche. There is incontrovertible proof for this in the Vedic mantra chanted at the end of the marriage rite. . > I told that a girl is under the sway of a gandharva between the time she is able to wearher clothes without anybody's help and her menarche. His name is Visvavasu. The mantra I referred to is chanted by the groom addressing this demigod. "o Visvasu, " it says, " I bow to you. Leave this girl and go. Go to another girl child. Have I not become the husband of this girl? So give her over to me and go to another girl who is not married and lives with her father. " During the wedding the groom performs a puja to this gandharva and prays to him to free the girl from his control. Here is proof that the bride is not under Agni and has not had her menarche>  > The question now is about the verse (from the Manusmrti) cited by the reformists. According to it, a girl may wait three years after her menarche and then seek her husband on her own. >  > There is an answer to this. The general rule according to the dharmasastras is that a girl must be married before she attains puberty: "Pradanam prak rtoh. " What happens if this injunction is not followed? If groom does not come on his own, seeking the girl's hand, her father or brother must look for a groom and marry her off. But if they turn out to be irresponsible or otherwise fail to find a groom? Or if the girl has no guardian, no one to care for her? The lines quoted by the reformers from the Manusmrti apply to such a girl. She may look for a husband on her if none of her relatives, neighbours or well-wishers take the trouble of finding her a groom even after she has attained puberty. >  > Though the reformists quote from the Vedas and sastras in support of their view, they fail to take into account the context in which the relevant passages occur. They see them in isolation. That is why they keep arguing that the customs followed by people steeped in our traditions are contrary to the sastras. >  > In the Chandogya Upanisad there is mention of a sage called Cakrayana Usasti whose wife had not come of age. The reformists do not examine such references in our ancient texts with a cool head but are carried away by their emotions. >  > In the past the common people did not know how to counter the arguments of the reformists. Even so they did not accept their views thinking it best to follow the practices of their elders, of great men. That is why the bill brought twice by the Rt Hon'ble Srinivasa sastri before the legislative council to amend the marriage act (with reference to the age of marriage) did not receive enough support. Later (Harbilas) Sarda introduced the bill which [on its passage] came to be called the Sarda Act. Many people (in the South) think Sarda was a women and call the law named after him the "Sarda Act". The Central legislative assembly was equally divided on the bill -- 50 percent for and 50 per cent against. Then the British asked one of the nominated members to vote in favour of the bill; and thus the minimum age of marriage for girls was raised by a legal enactment. The bill was passed not on the strength of public opinion but because if the government's> intervention. The mind of our British rulers worked thus: "The Congress has been demanding svaraj but we have refused to grant it. Let us give it some satisfaction by being of help in inflicting an injury on the (Hindu) religion. ">  > Now things have changed. There is no respect any longer for old customs and traditions. When the Sarda Act came into force in British India, some Sanskrit scholars returned the "Mahamahopadhyaya" title conferred on them by the government. Among them were Pancanana Tarkaratna Bhattacarya of Bengal and Laksmana Sastri Dravid. The latter was settled in Kasi and had the "Dravid" tagged on to his name to make it known that he belonged to the land of the Tamils. How many people today are inspired to rise in protest against the changes introduced by our government in our sastric observances. >  > Our children must be taught the substance and meaning of the sastras in a comprehensive manner. To speak to them about one aspect here and another there will lead to a haphazard and confused view. The half-baked research carried on in the Vedas has given rise to the opinion that the scriptures favour love marriage. The canonical texts must be seen in their entirety. When a subject is examined, its underlying meaning and purpose must be grasped. Also they must be seen in the light of other relevant passages occurring elsewhere. A conclusion must be arrived at only after a thorough inquiry into all points. >  >  If the idea is to give importance to carnal pleasure these other forms may be permitted. But brahma is the best if the purpose of the marriage samskara is the advancement of the Self. >  Regards,>  -Manoj>  > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __> Manoj Chandran <chandran_manoj@ ...>> ancient_indian_ astrology> Tue, December 1, 2009 11:09:52 AM> Re: [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Celibate Marriages> >  > Dear Vidya Ji,> > From my understanding also it is a "non-sanctioned" union of two people outside social norms. And logically that union will be one primarily of high passions and unlikely to be celibate, infact exactly the opposite. So may be there is a different definition some where, but this is my understanding of Ghandarva Vivah.> > Now if we want to look at Celibacy within marriage, then by using the term "Ghandarva Vivah" we might be confusing things.>  > Regards,>  -Manoj>  > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __> Vidya <vidyakmr >> ancient_indian_ astrology> Tue, December 1, 2009 10:25:05 AM> [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Celibate Marriages> >  > Dear Members,> > Thank you all for your input and responses..I think the meaning of "gandarv vivah" has been corrupted over the years if I am not mistaken. I beg to differ from you Mr. Bhaskar Ji since it was explained to be quite differently. I was told that the couple will live like any normal couple but without passion or physical relations. The couples will have "pure love" for each other and that's how they will relate to each other. I am not too sure about the blessing part since it is God himself who gives blessings in marriages. > > Vidya> ancient_indian_ astrology, "Bhaskar" <bhaskar_jyotish@ ...> wrote:> >> > > > Gandharva Vivah is one which is based on sexual overtures towards each> > other within the two partners. There is no blessings or divine ordinance> > for this type of vivah. Actually gandharva vivah is between 2 Gandahrvas> > who like each other are attracted towards each and go ahead to marry> > till the time they can stay along. We are not gandharvas but manushyas.> > When we love somebody and have desire to marry her or him, without> > necessary consent of parents or elders, it can be constituted by normal> > idiots as gandharva vivaha, but this does not fit the actual meaning in> > part or complete, because we are not Gandharvas.> > > > Try marrying a Gandharva female. She will suck your energy in just one> > night and leave you impotent forthe next 10 Years. In the first case you> > must be man enough to meet one. And if you meet a female Gandharva (All> > of them are always young and never old) try having sex with her, (Thats> > the only reason she will meet you) and see what happens. All this talk> > of Gandharva vivah is all bakwass in the manushya context.> > > > Bhaskar.> >>This Message was sent from Indian Oil Messaging Gateway, New Delhi, India. The information contained in this electronic message and any attachments to this message are intended for the exclusive use of the addressee(s) and may contain proprietary, confidential or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately and destroy all copies of this message and any attachments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 2, 2009 Report Share Posted December 2, 2009 Dear Manoj ji, HaHa. None of us is an expert in this. Actually gandharva vivaha has other connotations too. This only a Karma kandi pundit will be able to explain. thanks and regards, Bhaskar. , Manoj Chandran <chandran_manoj wrote: > > Dear Kulbir Ji, > > I am not an expert in this. I just wanted to send an article to Ms Vidya to show her what Gandharva Vivah really was. Usually I like to show the whole article and not just " cut and paste " parts just to be fair to the person who wrote the article. You make a good point about Swayamvara, but I am guessing it is not part of Manu Smriti, which is what this article was talking about. >  > Regards, >  -Manoj >  > > > > > ________________________________ > kulbir kulbirbains > > Tue, December 1, 2009 9:20:58 PM > Re: Celibate Marriages > >  > Manoj ji; > you missed swayamvara. > Regards > Kulbir > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 2, 2009 Report Share Posted December 2, 2009 Some of those "normal idiots" are Manu and Parasara. Gaandharva vivaha is a natural method for Gandharvas, and is an acceptable mode for a Kshatriya. Dushyanta-Sakuntala is a classic example of Gaandharva marriage. However that was a time, when a mere verbal commitment in solitude made people to commit themselves for life. These days commitments given in front of hundreds of people are also thrown away - so the gaandharva way hardly guarantees a marriage. Also, talking of Gandharvas, we should remember that in a regular marriage they explain that the girl is protected first by Agni, then by Gandharva (until marriage), then by the husband (since the marriage). It is not really about living with a Gandharva Yes, Gandharvas are beings of higher planes - they are supposed to be extremely proficient in art-forms like music - sangeeta is called "Gaandharva veda" for the same reason. Angara parna, a gandharva imparts some of his skills to Arjuna in MBH, Citrasena another Gandharva gave tough time to Duryodhana and his men. Gandharvas are not pisacas, they do not "suck off the energy" - they are beings of a higher plane. They enrich (righteous) men, help them in many ways. Regarding brahma vivaha, it is not child marriage, it does not have to be. Conducting marriage in childhood as a practice came at some point of time, and went with time. If we look at the marriage procedure itself, it demands that the groom is a snataka, a graduate. So though most people do not graduate in the traditional way these days, there is a formal snataka conducted before marraige, that declares him eligible for marriage. After this the marriage happens. For girls being kids too, that came with time and went with times. Shankar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 2, 2009 Report Share Posted December 2, 2009 Dear Shankara Bharadwaj ji, When I spoke of " Normal idiots " I meant those idiots in the present generation who speak and use these terms loosely, just as some idiots from western are using the word " Chakras " and " levitations " and promising people to open their chakras with workshops of 1-2 days. Please do not use sarcasm which is unwaraanted without knowing the context and idea behind speaking this. Nobody is an expert on " Manu " and " Parashara " at same time nobody is wnaware of their writings too. Regarding " Gandharva Vivaha' the word when originated from the shabd " gandharva " then it is but obvious that certain norms of practise which Gandharvas used at marriage , when begun being used by normal manushyas, then it came to be known as " Gandharva Vivaha " . About gandharva being " Pisachas " there is no reason to connect them with Pisachas. About sucking energy , then it is advised that one should meet people who have been in touch with gandharvas to get a proper understanding, because there is no way that one could prove that they cannot do so, just as there is no way to prove that they do. We are not talking about sucking blood here. I do understand it seems you have obtained some informations today, which you are using to pick terms from my previous mail, and writing back. But the information is not convincing and neither authenticated. When the authentication is not available on any side for certain matters, then the best recourse would be to leave the matter rather than purposely put ghee in fire and keep fires burning unnecessarily when its no more cold. regards, Bhaskar. , ShankaraBharadwaj Khandavalli <shankarabharadwaj wrote: > > Some of those " normal idiots " are Manu and Parasara. > > Gaandharva vivaha is a natural method for Gandharvas, and is an acceptable mode for a Kshatriya. Dushyanta-Sakuntala is a classic example of Gaandharva marriage. However that was a time, when a mere verbal commitment in solitude made people to commit themselves for life. These days commitments given in front of hundreds of people are also thrown away - so the gaandharva way hardly guarantees a marriage. > > Also, talking of Gandharvas, we should remember that in a regular marriage they explain that the girl is protected first by Agni, then by Gandharva (until marriage), then by the husband (since the marriage). It is not really about living with a Gandharva > > Yes, Gandharvas are beings of higher planes - they are supposed to be extremely proficient in art-forms like music - sangeeta is called " Gaandharva veda " for the same reason. Angara parna, a gandharva imparts some of his skills to Arjuna in MBH, Citrasena another Gandharva gave tough time to Duryodhana and his men. Gandharvas are not pisacas, they do not " suck off the energy " - they are beings of a higher plane. They enrich (righteous) men, help them in many ways. > > Regarding brahma vivaha, it is not child marriage, it does not have to be. Conducting marriage in childhood as a practice came at some point of time, and went with time. If we look at the marriage procedure itself, it demands that the groom is a snataka, a graduate. So though most people do not graduate in the traditional way these days, there is a formal snataka conducted before marraige, that declares him eligible for marriage. After this the marriage happens. For girls being kids too, that came with time and went with times. > > Shankar > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 2, 2009 Report Share Posted December 2, 2009 Dear Bhaskar ji," When I spoke of "Normal idiots" I meant those idiots in the present generation who speak and use these terms loosely, just as some idiots"I did not see this term in your post My post was addressing multiple posts, which is why I did not address anyone in particular. "About sucking energy , then it is advised that one should meet people who have been in touch with gandharvas to get a proper understanding, because there is no way that one could prove that they cannot do so, just as there is no way to prove that they do. "The point is not whether they do or do not - it is about what is the nature of a Gandharva and to what kind of consciousness they belong. While some beings thrive on the energy of humans they take possession of, Gandharvas are not like that. That is the point. "Regarding "Gandharva Vivaha' the word when originated from the shabd "gandharva" then it is but obvious that certain norms of practise which Gandharvas used at marriage , when begun being used by normal manushyas, then it came to be known as "Gandharva Vivaha"."Yes, that is obvious. What should have been obvious from that and was not, is the kind of relations Gandharvas maintain, and why a particular mode of human marriage is fashioned after them, and to what effect. Which is what I tried to present. " I do understand it seems you have obtained some informations today, which you are using to pick terms from my previous mail, and writing back. "Well if I were to obtain information I would rather spend that time on better things. But if it is believed that I obtained information, then you should be happy I cared to do some homework to contribute to the thread than feeling offended "But the information is not convincing and neither authenticated."I typically never write when proper sources of information are not there - Vivaha kalpa, Mahabharata, Manu smriti are the texts very much available to verify each word I wrote. So rest is for the readers to do, since the source of information is given. Unfortunately it never appears that you go to the sources after I give them, but are happy to keep coming back to the mail than the text concerned. " When the authentication is not available on any side for certain matters, then the best recourse would be to leave the matter rather than purposely put ghee n fire and keep fires burning unnecessarily when its no more cold."First of all, my post is not a rejoinder but an addendum - so take it in the right spirit. You are free to go to those texts, or free to differ. Where is the question of heat or cold! ShankarBhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish Sent: Wed, December 2, 2009 5:01:41 PM Re: Celibate Marriages Dear Shankara Bharadwaj ji, When I spoke of "Normal idiots" I meant those idiots in the present generation who speak and use these terms loosely, just as some idiots from western are using the word "Chakras" and "levitations" and promising people to open their chakras with workshops of 1-2 days. Please do not use sarcasm which is unwaraanted without knowing the context and idea behind speaking this. Nobody is an expert on "Manu" and "Parashara" at same time nobody is wnaware of their writings too. Regarding "Gandharva Vivaha' the word when originated from the shabd "gandharva" then it is but obvious that certain norms of practise which Gandharvas used at marriage , when begun being used by normal manushyas, then it came to be known as "Gandharva Vivaha". About gandharva being "Pisachas" there is no reason to connect them with Pisachas. About sucking energy , then it is advised that one should meet people who have been in touch with gandharvas to get a proper understanding, because there is no way that one could prove that they cannot do so, just as there is no way to prove that they do. We are not talking about sucking blood here. I do understand it seems you have obtained some informations today, which you are using to pick terms from my previous mail, and writing back. But the information is not convincing and neither authenticated. When the authentication is not available on any side for certain matters, then the best recourse would be to leave the matter rather than purposely put ghee in fire and keep fires burning unnecessarily when its no more cold. regards, Bhaskar. ancient_indian_ astrology, ShankaraBharadwaj Khandavalli <shankarabharadwaj@ ...> wrote: > > Some of those "normal idiots" are Manu and Parasara. > > Gaandharva vivaha is a natural method for Gandharvas, and is an acceptable mode for a Kshatriya. Dushyanta-Sakuntala is a classic example of Gaandharva marriage. However that was a time, when a mere verbal commitment in solitude made people to commit themselves for life. These days commitments given in front of hundreds of people are also thrown away - so the gaandharva way hardly guarantees a marriage. > > Also, talking of Gandharvas, we should remember that in a regular marriage they explain that the girl is protected first by Agni, then by Gandharva (until marriage), then by the husband (since the marriage). It is not really about living with a Gandharva > > Yes, Gandharvas are beings of higher planes - they are supposed to be extremely proficient in art-forms like music - sangeeta is called "Gaandharva veda" for the same reason. Angara parna, a gandharva imparts some of his skills to Arjuna in MBH, Citrasena another Gandharva gave tough time to Duryodhana and his men. Gandharvas are not pisacas, they do not "suck off the energy" - they are beings of a higher plane. They enrich (righteous) men, help them in many ways. > > Regarding brahma vivaha, it is not child marriage, it does not have to be. Conducting marriage in childhood as a practice came at some point of time, and went with time. If we look at the marriage procedure itself, it demands that the groom is a snataka, a graduate. So though most people do not graduate in the traditional way these days, there is a formal snataka conducted before marraige, that declares him eligible for marriage. After this the marriage happens. For girls being kids too, that came with time and went with times. > > Shankar > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 2, 2009 Report Share Posted December 2, 2009 Sir, I read the Manusmriti about 10-12 years ago, and would love to read it again (its in my mind to do so) and is kept in a privileged place in my personal Library along with the Bhagavad Gita, but please kindly do not expect me to refer these texts for finding more informations about gandharvas. I am really not interested to fill my mind with such info. And another point, people will keep referring texts occasionally and quote from them, we obviously cannot refer every text each time to confirm all this. And for such ordinary topics and disagreements certainly not. Gandharvas I have read since childhood are a elevated lot of astral beings and also interested much in music and play, but also read since childhood that they fall in love with manushays very soon if they sight one, and do so on nights-chandni raatein when they come out " vicharne ke liye " . They are not evil, all of them, but a charactersitic is common between them, Love which they aspire for, and always ready to share. They will not suck the blood, nor suck the vital energy, but if any Gandharva does love play with a woman then she will never find the satisfaction from her own spouse after having experienced it with a gandharva, so is as good as becoming impotent for her husband. In mans case it is different. He will really become one. But men normally do not fall prey because these days men dont have that quality to attract gandharvas. But please treat these talks as nonsense, if you have to for I have no shastra to authenticate this. Best wishes, Bhaskar. , ShankaraBharadwaj Khandavalli <shankarabharadwaj wrote: > > Dear Bhaskar ji, > > " > When I spoke of " Normal idiots " I meant those idiots in the present > generation who speak and use these terms loosely, just as some idiots " > > I did not see this term in your post My post was addressing multiple posts, which is why I did not address anyone in particular. > > " About sucking energy , then it is advised that one should meet > people who have been in touch with gandharvas to get a proper > understanding, because there is no way that one could prove that they > cannot do so, just as there is no way to prove that they do. " > > The point is not whether they do or do not - it is about what is the nature of a Gandharva and to what kind of consciousness they belong. While some beings thrive on the energy of humans they take possession of, Gandharvas are not like that. That is the point. > > " Regarding " Gandharva Vivaha' the word when originated from the shabd > " gandharva " then it is but obvious that certain norms of practise which > Gandharvas used at marriage , when begun being used by normal manushyas, > then it came to be known as " Gandharva Vivaha " . " > > Yes, that is obvious. What should have been obvious from that and was not, is the kind of relations Gandharvas maintain, and why a particular mode of human marriage is fashioned after them, and to what effect. Which is what I tried to present. > > " > I do understand it seems you have obtained some informations today, > which you are using to pick terms from my previous mail, and writing > back. " > > Well if I were to obtain information I would rather spend that time on better things. But if it is believed that I obtained information, then you should be happy I cared to do some homework to contribute to the thread than feeling offended > > " But the information is not convincing and neither authenticated. " > > I typically never write when proper sources of information are not there - Vivaha kalpa, Mahabharata, Manu smriti are the texts very much available to verify each word I wrote. So rest is for the readers to do, since the source of information is given. Unfortunately it never appears that you go to the sources after I give them, but are happy to keep coming back to the mail than the text concerned. > > " > When the authentication is not available on any side for certain > matters, then the best recourse would be to leave the matter rather than > purposely put ghee n fire and keep fires burning unnecessarily when its > no more cold. " > > First of all, my post is not a rejoinder but an addendum - so take it in the right spirit. You are free to go to those texts, or free to differ. Where is the question of heat or cold! > > Shankar > > > > ________________________________ > Bhaskar bhaskar_jyotish > > Wed, December 2, 2009 5:01:41 PM > Re: Celibate Marriages > > > > Dear Shankara Bharadwaj ji, > > When I spoke of " Normal idiots " I meant those idiots in the present > generation who speak and use these terms loosely, just as some idiots > from western are using the word " Chakras " and " levitations " and > promising people to open their chakras with workshops of 1-2 days. > > Please do not use sarcasm which is unwaraanted without knowing the > context and idea behind speaking this. > > Nobody is an expert on " Manu " and " Parashara " at same time nobody is > wnaware of their writings too. > > Regarding " Gandharva Vivaha' the word when originated from the shabd > " gandharva " then it is but obvious that certain norms of practise which > Gandharvas used at marriage , when begun being used by normal manushyas, > then it came to be known as " Gandharva Vivaha " . > > About gandharva being " Pisachas " there is no reason to connect them with > Pisachas. About sucking energy , then it is advised that one should meet > people who have been in touch with gandharvas to get a proper > understanding, because there is no way that one could prove that they > cannot do so, just as there is no way to prove that they do. We are not > talking about sucking blood here. > > I do understand it seems you have obtained some informations today, > which you are using to pick terms from my previous mail, and writing > back. But the information is not convincing and neither authenticated. > When the authentication is not available on any side for certain > matters, then the best recourse would be to leave the matter rather than > purposely put ghee in fire and keep fires burning unnecessarily when its > no more cold. > > regards, > > Bhaskar. > > ancient_indian_ astrology, ShankaraBharadwaj > Khandavalli <shankarabharadwaj@ ...> wrote: > > > > Some of those " normal idiots " are Manu and Parasara. > > > > Gaandharva vivaha is a natural method for Gandharvas, and is an > acceptable mode for a Kshatriya. Dushyanta-Sakuntala is a classic > example of Gaandharva marriage. However that was a time, when a mere > verbal commitment in solitude made people to commit themselves for life. > These days commitments given in front of hundreds of people are also > thrown away - so the gaandharva way hardly guarantees a marriage. > > > > Also, talking of Gandharvas, we should remember that in a regular > marriage they explain that the girl is protected first by Agni, then by > Gandharva (until marriage), then by the husband (since the marriage). It > is not really about living with a Gandharva > > > > Yes, Gandharvas are beings of higher planes - they are supposed to be > extremely proficient in art-forms like music - sangeeta is called > " Gaandharva veda " for the same reason. Angara parna, a gandharva imparts > some of his skills to Arjuna in MBH, Citrasena another Gandharva gave > tough time to Duryodhana and his men. Gandharvas are not pisacas, they > do not " suck off the energy " - they are beings of a higher plane. They > enrich (righteous) men, help them in many ways. > > > > Regarding brahma vivaha, it is not child marriage, it does not have to > be. Conducting marriage in childhood as a practice came at some point of > time, and went with time. If we look at the marriage procedure itself, > it demands that the groom is a snataka, a graduate. So though most > people do not graduate in the traditional way these days, there is a > formal snataka conducted before marraige, that declares him eligible for > marriage. After this the marriage happens. For girls being kids too, > that came with time and went with times. > > > > Shankar > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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