Guest guest Posted October 2, 2008 Report Share Posted October 2, 2008 WAVES-Vedic , " Avtar Krishen Kaul " <jyotirved wrote: Dear Shri Omprakash Mishraji, Namaskar! <The oldest Hindu scripture are VEDAS. They were composed over a period of 1000 years beginning about 1000 BC.> I wonder where from you got that information! The Vedanga Jyotisha is a work of 14th century BCE! That is as per the astronomical data in that work i.e. when the Winter Solstice was in exact conjunction with Dhanishtha (Beta Delphini) Star. The Rigveda is definitely much older than that---at least of about 5000 BCE. The anthropological details and " Historians of the Religion " (though I do not know what the latter means!) that you are talking about are presenting lopsided views, if at all they are having any such views. < Historians also revealed that practice of " ASTROLOGY " began some time before 2000 BC in BABYLONIA (Now in IRAQ)> This information also is incorrect. Astrolatory was being practiced in Babylonia as per available cuneiform tablets as early as 5000 BCE, if not 7000 BCE! < This input is only to exhibit that Astrology was in practice in the World, in some form or other, during the period when VEDAS were written by Hindus.> Vedic seers did not believe in fatalism, as will be evident from the Vedas, which you are discussing. As such, there was no need for them to " discover " any such pseudoscience! < My request to knowledgeable people is that one should not waste energy & time in criticizing each other but utilize fruitfully in analyzing the scriptures to make it complimentary to the new inputs discovered by scientists/ researchers etc. and vice versa. > There are astronomical references in the Vedas and the Vedanga Jyotisha etc. We must certainly utilize modern astronomy to streamline our calendars. And the Vedas had a seasonal year, instead of Mesha, Vrisha etc. rashis, which do not exist even astronomically, as they are just imaginary creations by jyotishis, and have nothing to do with either the Vedas or modern astronomy! As such, the only way to make modern sciences complimentary to the Vedas is that we must celebrate all our festivals and muhurtas as per modern sciences in accordance with the Vedic lore, by celebrating Uttarayana on the shortest day of the year instead of January 15 as per the whims and fancies of " Vedic astrologers " , who may actually be holding the Vedas upside down for I doubt that they have any knowledge about them! <Therefore we may think and analyze to accept that the VEDAS & ASTROLOGY both are knowledge providers but needs blending with new inputs for its improvement and making them to become compliment to each other.> Parallel lines never meet unless both of them travel at the speed of light! As such the Vedas and predictive gimmicks, which you call astrology with all-capitals can never meet! If there is light there cannot be darkness! Vedas are light and astrology is darkness! If you believe in the Vedas, you cannot believe in astrology! You have to choose either of the two! As you have pointed out yourself, yesteryears' Babylon is today's Iraq! Just see for yourself their fate because of their fatal infatuation with astrolatory! On the other hand, as has been said by the Urdu poet Iqbal " Ian Misra Roma, sab mit gaye jahan se ab tak magar hai bakee nam-o-nishan hamara " So long as we desist from following Babylonia in its footsteps of astrolatry, you can rest assured that India that is Bharatavarsha will flourish. The moment we succumb to it, we may become another erstwhile Hindu neighbouring country, which was the only Hindu kingdom till a few years back and where the King was considered to be an Incarnation of Vishnu. But astrolatory did not even spare H/him from being consigned to dustbin! < Forgive me if it hurt some one.> It is an academic discussion. You are not hurting anyone by expressing your views in a forceful manner, pl. rest assured. With regards, A K Kaul WAVES-Vedic , omprakash mishra <rio_22002@> wrote: > > Dear All > > " VEDAS V/S ASTROLOGY " > > The " Anthropologist " and " Historians of the Religion " traces the history of various religions and recorded that " Hinduism " began about 1500 BC when Aryans & Dravidians blended their cultures to develop it. I request to kindly peruse the following points- > > > The oldest Hindu scripture are VEDAS. They were composed over a period of 1000 years beginning about 1000 BC. > > > Historians also revealed that practice of " ASTROLOGY " began some time before 2000 BC in BABYLONIA (Now in IRAQ). > > > This input is only to exhibit that Astrology was in practice in the World, in some form or other, during the period when VEDAS were written by Hindus. > > > My request to knowledgeable people is that one should not waste energy & time in criticizing each other but utilize fruitfully in analyzing the scriptures to make it complimentary to the new inputs discovered by scientists/ researchers etc. and vice versa. > > > Nothing to be consider as " ABSOLUTE " in this dynamic world particularly when they are subjective. An interpretation of subjective descriptions varies from individual to individual and place to place. Same is true for laws scripted in our religious books including VEDAS. Only Laws based on Mathematics are absolute since their interpretation does not vary from individual to individual and place to place. > > > Third millennium is a " millennium of blending " of the subjective VEDIC principles and Laws with the absolute scientific laws to develop a new " HINDUISM " with " Subjective-Cum-Absolute " laws for better understanding of the GOD & NATURE and its management system. This may be a pre-requisite for human society for attaining its state of living in absolute happiness. > > Therefore we may think and analyze to accept that the VEDAS & ASTROLOGY both are knowledge providers but needs blending with new inputs for its improvement and making them to become compliment to each other. > > " WE NEED ANALYST NOT CRITICS " > > Forgive me if it hurt some one. > > Regards > > OM PRAKASH > > --- On Mon, 9/29/08, Prem Sabhlok <psabhlok@> wrote: > > Prem Sabhlok <psabhlok@> > RE: [WAVES-Vedic] Fwd: Re: " Vedic astrology " - the greatest fraud on the Vedas! (reposted) > " Shaas Ruzicka " <amritasyaputra@>, waves-vedic > Cc: jyotirved@ > Monday, September 29, 2008, 8:03 PM Dear Shaas ji, > Since the two great Mythological Epics are Vedas retold, reference to relevant Vedic hymns/rik/mantra will greatly help me in updating my knowldge. Since Astrology does not form part of Vedic Metaphysics, it is very likely I might have overlooked this aspect. Vedas have an ocean of knowledge, an ordinary person like me with a limited knowledge and capacity might have overlooked many other major and important Vedic teachings and guidelines. I am always open to learn more. I have personally nothing against astrology. > With kind regards, > P.K.Sabhlok > > > > > > > > Mon, 29 Sep 2008 15:20:56 +0200 > amritasyaputra@ .de > RE: [WAVES-Vedic] Fwd: Re: " Vedic astrology " - the greatest fraud on the Vedas! (reposted) > waves-vedic > CC: jyotirved (AT) sify (DOT) com; psabhlok (AT) hotmail (DOT) com > > > > Dear Mr. Sabhlok, > > before I take the " pain " to give you some exact quotes from Vedic Literature, one question: Have you, actually, read Mahabharata and Ramayana? > > Your and Mr Avtar's opinions are utterly unqualified full of half truths and wrong assumptions. I think, Jyotish is sufficiently often mentioned in the most ancient Vedic scriptures - even in the Upanishads, whose themes are of completely spiritual nature. > > Jyotish belongs to the 6 Darshanas, and as such it is an integral part of the Vedic Literature. > > WIth best regards > > Shaas > > > > Prem Sabhlok <psabhlok (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> schrieb: > > > > > I do not know why it is called Vedic Astrology. May be I have missed that mantra/hymn/ Rik in Vedas which refers to Astrology (Jyotish Vidya). Mantras relating to Astronomy, Algebra, physical sciences, Medical sciences etc are there but about Astrology I could not find any reference in Vedas. In Ramayana and Mahabharta which are Vedas retold, also there is no reference to Astrology. Can any Vedic scholar throw some light on this aspect? Some learned people have found that astrology started in Greece as a hobby but not as a science. To my understanding Vedas do not have even the concept of auspicious/inauspic ious time/period. > With kind regards, > P.K.Sabhlok > > > > > > waves-vedic > jyotirved (AT) sify (DOT) com > Sat, 27 Sep 2008 08:01:27 +0000 > [WAVES-Vedic] Fwd: Re: " Vedic astrology " - the greatest fraud on the Vedas! (reposted) > > > > > > HinduCalendar, " Avtar Krishen Kaul " > <jyotirved@ ..> wrote: > > Shri Ravilochananji, > Namaskar! > > <I concur with your views. NOwhere is it said in our epics or > Puranas that the Kings or Princes consulted astrologers before > marriage. Neither did Lord Ram consult an astrologer before taking > part in the bow contest nor did Lord Krishna went in search of > astrologers before departing to carry away Devi Rukmini.> > > The fad of kings consulting jyotishis was started through his Brihat > Samhita by Varahamihira who was the greatest charlatan according to > me since he could make " correct predictions from incorect data " viz. > panchangas based on Maya the mlechha's Surya Sidhanta, the most > monstrous astronomical work that could ever have been produced by > anybody! No wonder, " Vedic astrologers " of today vie with one > another for being called " Varahamihira " since they also can make > correct predictions ONLY from incorrect data! > > Regarding " Patri Melapak " , what is most ironic is that no " jyotisha > shastra " right from Sphujidwaja' s yavana Jatakam to the most > notorious fake work viz. Brihat Parashari has touched this topic > even with a barge pole, but then today's " Vedic jyotishis " say that > it was practised by Vedic seers! My personal view is that if the > seers had really indulged in such a non-sense (actually the most > cunning!) fad, almost all of them would still have been looking for > a spouse whose Patri would match with theirs with at least 28 gunas! > > <It is high time that we gave up the ancient Greek notion of > astrology and get back to proper astronomy.> > > This " Vedic astrology " has had such a deleterious affect on the real > Vedic culture that the words of the Gita are becoming most > meaningful these days: > " adharmam dharmam it ya manyate tamsa vrita > sarvarthan vipareetanshchai, budhih saa partha tamasi " > i.e. > " an intellect that views adharma as dharma (and dharma as adharma) > besides viewing all the things upside down, is the real Tamasic > intellect " . > > I find that almost every Hindu is trying to defend " Vedic astrology " > in spite of the fact that it has been made clear to them by now that > it is because of that very fad that we are celebrating all our > festivals and muhurtas on worng days, but their arguments are really > tamasic---like " I do not know much about astronomy (and by > implication it means that he/she knows everything about astrology > though!) " is the stock reply of most of them. > > All the Hindus are now a days least bothered about celebrating Pitra- > Amavasya on the day of actual Dipavali which is on September 28, > 2008, but they do not want to hear even a single word against " Vedic > astrology " ! They celebrated marriages in actual Pitrapaksha > because " Vedic astrologes " had okayed those dates! > > What is surprising is that in spite of being well read, most of the > Hindus have lost all sense of basic Primary school level geography! > They have become oblivious of the fact that Uttarayana cannot take > place on any other day than the shortest day of the year or > Dakshinayana except on the longest day of the year! But they have > put wool into their ears for such phenomena since " Vedic > astrologers " want them to celebrate Uttarayana on January 15 and > Dakshinayana on July 15 and so on! > > In short, most of the Hindu society appears to have become clones of > Maya the mlechha just because of their fatal infatuation with " Vedic > astrology " ! And that is the real Tamasic Vriti that I am talking > about! > > However, since, AS IS EVIDENT FROM YOUR POST, Hindus are basically > the offspring of real Vamadevas instead of " imported Vamadevas " , > sooner than later the genome of Vedic seers will revolt against this > tyranny of " Vedic astrologers " and thereby prevent the Hindu > culture from having an akalamrityu, INSPITE OF " VEDIC ASTROLOGERS " ! > With regards, > Avtar > > HinduCalendar, " Ravilochanan " > <ravilochan_ tn@> wrote: > > > > Dear Shri Avtar > > > > Pranaam! I concur with your views. NOwhere is it said in our epics > or > > Puranas that the Kings or Princes consulted astrologers before > > marriage. Neither did Lord Ram consult an astrologer before taking > > part in the bow contest nor did Lord Krishna went in search of > > astrologers before departing to carry away Devi Rukmini. This > > practice of matching kundli has reached absurd proportions. Our > > dharma speaks about doing our duty without concern for the fruits. > > Doing what is right is the most important issue. Karma phal will > > finally reach us. One's karmaphal will not suddenly turn into good > > all of a sudden just because a kundli got matched. It doesn't make > > any sense. The Gita does not speak about jyotish phal. It only > speaks > > about karma phal. My heart bleeds upon seeing some orthodox Hindus > > who have nearly mastered the aspect of Karma Yoga but still visit > the > > astrologer with kundlis during marriage just because their parents > > had (wrongly) taught them so. They believe it to be an integral > part > > of Vedic culture. It is high time that we gave up the ancient > Greek > > notion of astrology and get back to proper astronomy. > > > > humbly > > Ravilochanan > > > > > > HinduCalendar, " Avtar Krishen Kaul " > > <jyotirved@> wrote: > > > > > > Shri Arul Thilak ji, > > > Namaskar! > > > > > > You have said > > > < As to how the last Hindu kingdom was lost in the 21st > century, > > > the following excerpts of Tarun Vijay's recent essay are > > revealing.> > > > > > > It is immaterial as to who says what! In a democracy, everybody > is > > > " authorized " to say anything about anybody or any event, > especially > > if > > > the person concerned is a journalist! We have, however, to > > ascertain > > > facts for ourselves by sifting grain from the chaff and go by > them! > > > > > > You have quoted me as saying > > > <Our erstwhile Hindu neighbouring country is a glaring > > > example of its " suicide " because of an extraordinary infatuation > > > for " Vedic astrology " .> > > > and there is enough of correspondence on this topic in this > forum! > > > > > > To summarize the facts, one has just to recall the tragic event > of > > the > > > erstwhile crown-prince shooting dead his parents---the then king > and > > > queen---and then himself, only because his parents would not > allow > > him > > > to marry his sweet heart! And the parents did not allow that > > marriage > > > as the " Vedic astrologers " there had said that the horoscope of > the > > > crown-prince and his sweet heart did not match and it would bode > ill > > > for the king and the queen if that marriage was allowed! > > > And by now it is a well established fact that " Vedic > astrologers " > > only > > > predict the events upside down, if the data like the date and > time > > of > > > birth etc. of the " native " are correct, since they can make > correct > > > predictions only from incorrect data! Thus instead of advising > the > > > then king and queen to solemnize the marriage of the crown > prince > > with > > > his sweet heart---she was also from a royal family of India----as > > > otherwise he would go mad, they just advised to the contrary! > And > > the > > > results are there for everybody to see! It is worthwhile to put > on > > > record here that if it had been the earlier monarch, who was > shot > > dead > > > by his own son, still ruling Nepal, the things would have been > > > entirely different and would not have come to such a stage. > > > > > > Same was the case with BJP! If they had not advance the last > > General > > > Election by several months, the chances were that they would have > > > gained a majority by planning their moves properly and would > still > > be > > > ruling today! But they believed more in " Vedic astrology " than > their > > > own drum-beating of " India shining " . Even on the day the results > of > > > the last election were declared, all the channels and newspapers > > were > > > crying from housetops that as per all the jyotishis, A B Vajpayee > > > would be the PM, irrespective of which party gained majority! > > However, > > > the BJP's faith in " Vedic astrology " ruined everything for them > and > > > poor A B Vajpayee, instead of being crowned the king again, has > > become > > > completely bedridden, a sad fact that no astrologer had foreseen! > > > > > > You have also said > > > < It (Nepal) faithfully follows a Vikram Samvat calendar based > on > > the > > > most scientific Hindu system of time and space.  > > > > > > > On this topic also, there is a lot of correspondence with > > > IndiaArchaeology forum etc. that is available in this forum as > > well. > > > Again, instead of going by who is saying what, pl. peruse that > > > correspondence and then let me know as to whether there is any > > > " scientific basis " of 58 BC being called as Vikrami era is! If > at > > all > > > it has any scientific basis, it is based on the passage of the > VE > > from > > > one Greek constellation Aries into another Greek constellation > i.e. > > > Pisces in around 66 BCE! And nobody knows why and by whom and > when > > it > > > was named " Vikrami Era " . > > > > > > I have also made it clear literally hundreds of times that my > > aversion > > > towards " Vedic astrology " is because of the fact that it is > > actually a > > > fraud on the Vedas and also a drag on Hindu society, since it is > > this > > > very fad that is making us see adharma of celebrating all our > > > festivals and muhurtas on wrong days as dharma! Same is the > case > > with > > > the all out defense by some people of the farce known as " Vedic > > > astrology " -- -they are actually defending adharma in the name of > > dharma! > > > Hope the situation is clear now. > > > Regards, > > > AKK > > > > > > > > > > > > HinduCalendar, Arul T <arul_thilak@ > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > 1.  Sri Avtar-ji says as follows: > > > >  > > > > QUOTE > > > > Our erstwhile Hindu neighbouring country is a glaring > > > > example of its " suicide " because of an extraordinary > infatuation > > > > for " Vedic astrology " . So is the example of the BJP which had > > > > an " akalamrityu " by advanding the last election by several > months > > on > > > > the advice of its " Minister of Astrology " ! > > > > UNQUOTE > > > > > > > >  > > > >  > > > > As to how the last Hindu kingdom was lost in the 21st > century, > > > the following excerpts of Tarun Vijay's recent essay are > > revealing. > > > How, in particular, Hindu religious discourse was impoverished > and > > > limited to ritualism: > > > >  > > > > > > > http://timesofindia .indiatimes. com/articleshow/ msid- > 3482408,prtpage- > > 1.cms > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > THE RIGHT VIEW > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Learn Chinese to know Kathmandu > > > > 14 Sep 2008, 1640 hrs IST, Tarun Vijay > > > > > > > >  > > > > QUOTE > > > > ..... Younger Nepal turned the tide in favour of a change with > a > > > balance. Kingdom's Hindu status was meaningless as it failed to > > > strengthen the democratic roots and provide food, water and > > education > > > to the rural poor. Pro-Monarchy people couldn't establish their > > > credibility - they thrived on an anti-India note and kept > religious > > > affairs bound to the personal loyalty to the King which meant no > > > spiritual insurgence could take shape and the religious discourse > > > remained limited to ritualism. No strong nationalist spiritual > > fervour > > > was allowed as King felt threatened hence no tears were seen at > the > > > demise of its Hindu nation status and the abolition of > > monarchy. .... > > > >  > > > > When the rulers turn corrupt and abuse peoples' faith and > trust, > > > public unrest and angst gets expressed in different ways. Nepal > saw > > it > > > happen in the form of a Maoism that prided to declare it's all > the > > > sources of inspiration and support to the neighbouring Communist > > > China. ....... > > > >  > > > > Prachanda took oath as the first Prime Minister of this tiny > > > Himalayan federal republic, once the only Hindu State on this > > planet, > > > in the name of the 'people of Nepal '. > > > > > > > > Earlier all the PMs had sworn in, invoking God's name. He > chose to > > > wear a western dress, three piece suite with a necktie. Earlier > > > everyone had worn a Nepalese traditional dress called Daura > Suruwal. > > > He also became the first PM not to visit Pashupati Nath, as has > been > > > the tradition of all the Nepalese leaders and he chose to visit > > China > > > first, again a new precedence, although our PM Dr Manmohan Singh > was > > > the first head of the state to congratulate Prachanda and invite > him > > > to visit India within half-an-hour of his election to the post. > > > > UNQUOTE > > > >  > > > >  > > > > The Nepali monarchy also had a Rajaguru : > > > >  > > > > > > > > > http://www.hinduonn et.com/2002/ 06/27/stories/ 2002062703860100 .htm > > > > Jun 27, 2002 > > > >  > > > > Good news in 3 months: Kanchi Acharya > > > > By Our Special Correspondent > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > NEW DELHI JUNE 26. The Kanchi Sankaracharya, Jayendra > Saraswati, > > who > > > met the Prime Minister, Atal Behari Vajpayee, and the Vice- > > President, > > > Krishan Kant, today asserted that he would continue with his > > > independent initiative to try and find a solution to the Ayodhya > > > problem that would be agreeable to both the parties involved. He > > > expected " good news'' within two or three months. > > > >  > > > > During the day, the King of Nepal, Gyanendra, performed `pada > > puja' > > > at the feet of Adi Sankara at the Kamakshi temple, which is also > the > > > place where the Kanchi seer stays when he is here. The King was > with > > > the Queen, Komal Rajyalaxmi, and their daughter, Prerna > Rajyalaxmi, > > > and the `puja' was performed in the presence of the > Sankaracharya > > who > > > is also the `rajguru' of Nepal. Earlier, he had clarified that > his > > > current visit to the capital was connected with King Gyanendra's > > > desire to meet him. > > > >  > > > >  > > > > 2. Tarun Vijay's essay also mentions: > > > >  > > > > QUOTE > > > > It (Nepal) faithfully follows a Vikram Samvat calendar based > on > > the > > > most scientific Hindu system of time and space.  > > > > UNQUOTE > > > > > > > >  > > > >  > > > > --- On Thu, 25/9/08, Avtar Krishen Kaul <jyotirved@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Avtar Krishen Kaul <jyotirved@> > > > > [akandabaratam] Fwd: Re: " Vedic astrology " - the > greatest > > > fraud on the Vedas! (reposted) > > > > akandabaratam > > > > Thursday, 25 September, 2008, 12:39 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hinducivilization, " Avtar Krishen > Kaul " > > > > <jyotirved@ ..> wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Shri Bhadraiah Mallampalliji, > > > > Namaskar! > > > > I would request you to kindly go through your own post once > again. > > > > > > > > Can you pick even a single cogent reason from your own points > as > > to > > > > why we should continue to follow the fraud known as Vedic > > astrology, > > > > which is neither scientific, nor logical, least of all Vedic, > > > > instead of celebrating our festivals and muhurtas on correct > > days, > > > > as advised by our shastras, logic and science--since > > > > Uttarayana/Dakshina yana/Vasanta Sampat/Hemanta Sampat etc. > are > > all > > > > phenomena of seasons and therefore scientific! Similarly, all > the > > > > Vedas and Puranas have fixed certain days for rituals! E.g., > > > > Nirjala Ekadashi is a sort of Tapasya only if we observe it in > > > > Summer, when we feel most thirsty, whereas in Winter, it is > > hardly > > > > worthwhile! And that is what we will be doing after a few > > centuries- > > > > -celebrating that day in Winter--thanks to " Vedic astrologers " > > and > > > > their " Vedic astrology " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- End forwarded message --- > > > > > > Voice your opinion on the burning issues of the day. Discuss, debate with the world. Logon to message boards on MSN. Try it! > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __ > > Sie sind Spam leid? Mail verfügt über einen herausragenden Schutz gegen Massenmails. > http://mail. > > > > MSN Technology brings you the latest on gadgets, gizmos and the new hits in the gaming market. Try it now! > --- End forwarded message --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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