Guest guest Posted October 5, 2008 Report Share Posted October 5, 2008 Dear Shri Ravilochananji, Namaskar! Glad to receive your response. < Your statement about the days of a month based on the number of days between solstice and equinox is truly the best method. It solves the various unnecessary problems about determining the exact time of the Sun entering a nakshatra zone or a constellation (not the fictitious rashi division).> Since there are no Mesha etc. rashis, whether Sayana or nirayana either astronomically or as per the Vedas, the timings of Madhu, Madhava etc. months will be determined accordingly as per " trisection of the duration of two phenomena " . We can ignore ingress of sun into nakshatras, at least for the time being. < The VJ speaks about the sun and moon at Dhanista during the uttarayana. Hence, Magha amavasya will be the tithi of Uttarayana (it probably marks a cycle of yugas) and the months will be Purnimanta.> Some minor changes will have to be introduced, as per the spirit of the VJ, even if from its " letter " , it appears to be something else. As the VJ has said that right from the date of Utrtarayana, the days start increasing, it was, as such, not talking of only the Magha Amanta which coincided with Uttarayana, but the real shortest day of the year! Not every Magha Amavasya could have coincided with Uttarayana and as such, the days would have started increasing even prior to such Amavasyas---since lunar Magha (Amanta) always starts only either almost simultaneously with or later of solar Magha---which itself is Uttarayana. < But I have a question about one issue. VJ speaks of a 62 lunar month 5 year yuga cycle (to synchronise the lunar and solar calendars). But the yuga is longer by about 4 days (366*5) and actually the 62nd lunar month will end on 1861th day and as such it is nearly 5 days longer than the actual 5 year length.> It is an extremely difficult task to calculate exact moments of Winter/Summer solstice etc. even these days with " naked eyes " . Same is the case of New Moons/Full Moons. Presumably, in ancient India, such phenomena were calculated on the basis of rough and ready " reckoners " like gnomon etc. from which calulcations were generated. Naturally, those methods and the data they geneated could not have been as correct as could be desired. That is why we do not find any mention of true ending/beginning moments of tithi, nakshatra etc. in the VJ but just the mean ones. Even those mean elements/motion are quite different from the modern mean elements/motion. As such, the exact duration of a solar year having been taken as 366 days instead of about 365.25 or the excess five days in a yuga etc. etc. by the VJ have to be taken in the right spirit---i.e. we have to find out as to what was the idea behind such calculations. < Isn't it better to go with the VJ method of adding adhikamasa towards the end of an ayana?> IMHO, the idea of the VJ was simply that adhika/kshyana masa etc. have to be calculated in accordance with the timings of the solar months, and it is implicit that if with the passage of time, such instruments are/were refined, we have to go by the actual measurements rather than the ones that prevailed in the past. That is why the same VJ has put " mathematics " at top of other shastras. Thus instead of eliminating " excess five days " an adhika-mas will take its care automatically almost every third year and the lunar months will get synchronized with the solar ones, which in turn will be pegged against the seasons. That is also the spirit of the Rigveda mantra " Veda maso dhrita vrataha, veda ya upajayate.. " i.e. an adhika thirteenth (lunar) month vis-à-vis twelve solar months..... " . < The present system of Adhikamasa occuring at any time does not make any sense.> Yes, the present system of lunar adhika-masa etc. do not make any sense because the solar months themselves are pegged neither to seasons nor to some star! They are just " aligned " to the whims and fancies of " Vedic astrologers " , for whom the real Vedic and astronomical knowledge is " kaala akshar bhains barabar " . < Isn't it better to go with the VJ method of adding adhikamasa towards the end of an ayana?> As clarified above, we do not have to wait for ayanas to remove the dis-connect between lunar and solar months. We can these days calculate easily an adhika lunar masa vis-à-vis solar Madhu, Madhava etc months. I am sending copies of this post to other forums also so that we have their opinions as well. With regards, Avtar Krishen Kaul HinduCalendar [HinduCalendar ] On Behalf Of Ravilochanan Wednesday, October 01, 2008 8:14 PM HinduCalendar [HinduCalendar] Re: Parochialism versus Hindu Calendar! Dear Sri Avtar Kaul Pranaam! Your statement about the days of a month based on the number of days between solstice and equinox is truly the best method. It solves the various unnecessary problems about determining the exact time of the Sun entering a nakshatra zone or a constellation (not the fictitious rashi division). The VJ speaks about the sun and moon at Dhanista during the uttarayana. Hence, Magha amavasya will be the tithi of Uttarayana (it probably marks a cycle of yugas) and the months will be Purnimanta. Again, every 30 years winter solstice can be made to coincide with the Magha Amavasya. It can be ensured that we keep track of the 'true Winter Solstice' rather than the baseless Nirayana solstice. The Kaushitaki Brahmana also mentions about the Uttarayana occuring on Magha Amavasya. Combining this claim with the VJ sorts out several problems. But I have a question about one issue. VJ spaks of a 62 lunar month 5 year yuga cycle (to synchronise the lunar and solar calendars). But the yuga is longer by about 4 days (366*5) and actually the 62nd lunar month will end on 1861th day and as such it is nearly 5 days longer than the actual 5 year length. There must have been some mechanism to correct this mistake. It is very probable that Acharya Lagadha did not mention it as it was well known in practice. After all VJ is more like a sutra text for remembering basic rules rather than a complete work of astronomy. But at present, how are you planning to synchronise the lunar and solar calendars such that Magha Amavasya is tied to the Uttarayana day (occuring once every 30 or so years). The present system of Adhikamasa occuring at any time does not make any sense. Isn't it better to go with the VJ method of adding adhikamasa towards the end of an ayana? looking forward to your reply humbly Ravilochanan HinduCalendar , " Avtar Krishen Kaul " <jyotirved wrote: > > Dear Pathma, > Namaskar! > Many thanks indeed for the prompt response! > > Your have said > <I think we have all contributed what little we know.> > > There is a minor correction in my earlier post and it is: instead of > " This forum has as on date 260 members out of which hardly one per > cent are participating in the discussion of reforming the calendar! " > pl. read it as " This forum has as on date 260 members out of which > hardly TEN per cent are participating in the discussion of reforming > the calendar! " > > Secondly, that post is mainly addressed to fence-sitters, who jump > into the fray only when some highly controversial topic not related to > Hindu Calendar even remotely is introduced! They just remain silent > spectators otherwise. > > > <We have already made a decision that there is no astrology or > predetermination in Hinduism. Lets stick with that and move on.> > > As far as debunking " Vedic astrology " is concerned it is a situation > that has been brought upon the entire Hindu community by " Vedic > astrologers " themselves since they are the ones who decide and prepare > Hindu calendars/panchangas through Positional Astronomy Centre, > Kolkatta, or on their own otherwise. It is already on record that they > have not been able to do any good to the nation in any way whatsoever > through their predictive skills, but they are doing a lot of harm in > making the entire Hindu society to cling to Mesha, Vrisha etc. rashis, > whether so called sayana or so called nirayana. > > We cannot wish them away and they have therefore to be taken head on. > > <Since the nakshatra divisions are not too important to us, let us > proceed with the months and number of days in each month.> > > Regarding nakshatra divisions, I tried to find out the logic the > Vedanga jyotisha had in dividing the nakshatras into 27 equal > divisions, but I have not been able to arrive at any conclusion, > especially since the two stars viz. Chitra and Swati are quite close > to one another---less than a degree apart! On the other hand, Ardra > and Punarvasu are away by 22.5 degrees from one another! > > Could it be that the Star names that are being attributed to > respective divisions today were actually different during that period > or is something else the real problem. > > The star names being used these days are as per the ones given in the > Surya Sidhanta, and they have not been changed. It is a moot point as > to how far those names were correct and by whom they were attributed > to the respective nakshatra divisions in the Vedas and when. > > I wonder if any member can throw any light on the same. > > <The new tamil calendar has the birth of Tiruvalluvar as the starting > date. What is your proposed starting date? The birth of Buddha? Or > Mahavira? Or a certain alignment of stars? Or use the same existing > calenders, viz Kaliyuga, Saha, but adjusted for leap years?> > > Regarding you point about the starting date of the new era, it is > futile to club it with any personality, especially the ones of hoary > past about whose actual date of " Avatara " nobody is sure! To the best > of my knowledge, we have never had any such system in India--like we > never had any Shri Krishna Samvat or Shri Rama Samvat etc. Even the > Budha Nirvana and Mahavira nirvana years are being disputed and > questioned. > > Kali era is as useless and baseless as the " Vedic astrology " itself, > since it has absolutely no verifiable criterion i.e. the mean > longitudes of all the planets were zero at a particular point of time > about 5100 years back. Same is the case with Saptarshi era. > > The most ancient indigenous astronomical work that is around these > days is the Vedanga Jyotisha. It has a lot of astronomical details > which are verifiable. WE may not be able to pinpoint the exact year > as to when it was compiled, but we will not be far from the truth > either if we say it was around 14th century BCE. With Vasishtha.exe > program in the files section of the HinduCalendar forum, the year when > the Winter Solstice was in exact conjunction with Danishtha Star can > be easily ascertained. We can take it as the start of an era and name > it as VJ Era. I do not think anybody will have any objections to the > same. > > Regarding the start of the new Solar Year, it can be either Winter > Solstice or Vernal Equinox. Since Vernal > Equinox---Vaishakha/Meshadi/Vaishakhi----is already being celebrated > as the new solar year throughout India, it will not be very difficult > to " shorten " it by 24 days---bring it to March 21/22, instead of April > 14/15, by trying to convince the general public that it is just an > exercise like Gregorian calendar---making October 5 as October 16! > > Regarding lunar new years, there are already two navratras---vasanta > and sharadiya---and we can continue with them, with the only > difference that they will be aligned to the seasons (the VJ calendar) > instead of to Lahiri solar months. > > About leap years, I have made it already clear several times that in > the real Vedic calendar, there is not any leap year as no Vedic month > has 28 days which have to be upgraded by one day every four years! > Regarding the start of the solar month, different states have > different criteria---some states take it as " amdhya-ratri " others at > " sunrise to sunrise " and so on. We can align the starting dates to > Gregorian dates as per the actual timings of solar transits---making > Central Station of India as the focal point. That means that if it is > at 12-0-01 am (midnight) IST of Gregorian date for a solar ingress, it > will be taken as the next date but the earlier one otherwise. > > In one of my earlier posts, I had asked the members to give their > opinions about the duration of various months vis-a-vis the two > solstices and equinoxes. It is clear by now that in ancient days, > Vedic Rishis did not resort to dividing ecliptic into 360 degrees and > then take the duration of every month as solar transit of every thirty > degrees---the system followed in Western countries these days, on the > basis of Greco-Chaldean astrology. Vedic Seers could find the timings > of the two solstices and equinoxes and then divide that duration in > time between one Solstice and Equinox by three to determine the > starting date of the next month. For example, the September Equinox > (Vedic month of Urja and solar Kartika)of 2008 took place of September > 22, 2008 at 15-46 hrs. (TDT) whereas the December Solstice (Vedic > month of Tapah and solar Magha) will take place on December 21 at > 12-05 hrs (TDT). Instead of trying to find the ingress of the Sun > into Greek constellations/Rashis of Scorpio, Sagittarius etc. I think > the best way is to divide the time-gap between these two phenomena > viz. September Equinox and December Solstice in decimal days by three > and find out the exact timings of the Vedic months Sahas (solar > Agrahayana/Margasheersha) and Sahasya (solar Pausha)! > > Of course, all this is loud thinking and subject to peer review! > With kind regards, > Avtar > HinduCalendar , " Pathmarajah Nagalingam " > <beastmy@> wrote: > > > > Vanakkam, > > > > I think we have all contributed what little we know. We are wasting > > time refuting queries from 'astrologers'. We have already made a > > decision that there is no astrology or predetermination in Hinduism. > > Lets stick with that and move on. > > > > There is no question that the various Indian calendars are in gross > > error, and we need a new accurate one that self corrects itself. > > > > Since the nakshatra divisions are not too important to us, let us > > proceed with the months and number of days in each month. > > > > The new tamil calendar has the birth of Tiruvalluvar as the starting > > date. What is your proposed starting date? The birth of Buddha? Or > > Mahavira? Or a certain alignment of stars? Or use the same existing > > calenders, viz Kaliyuga, Saha, but adjusted for leap years? > > > > Pathma > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > HinduCalendar , " jyotirved " <jyotirved@> wrote: > > > > > > Dear All, > > > > > > Namaskar! > > > > > > When I was about to start this HinduCalendar forum, I toyed with the > > idea of > > > naming it as " Indian Calendar " or even " Vedic Calendar " forum. > > However, on > > > second thoughts, I dropped that idea and named it as > HinduCalendar. The > > > reasons are simple: I wanted it be a forum for Hindus whether they > > were/are > > > Vedic or Pauranic or Shaktas and so on or even agnostic! Similarly, > > it is > > > immaterial whether they are from North or from South etc. etc. It > > does not > > > matter much if they were/are even atheists---since I have no > > intention nor > > > am I qualified to convert anybody to any other way of thinking-- -so > > long as > > > they believe in celebrating festivals! > > > > > > > > > > > > I had and still have no doubts that Hindu is a universal term > > applicable to > > > at least 80 per cent of Indians, even if they are nowadays > > NRIs---which some > > > people interpret as " never returning Indians " . > > > > > > > > > > > > To the best of my knowledge, from times immemorial, Hindus had been > > > celebrating festivals in accordance with the seasons, like most of > > the other > > > communities of the world. All the calendars have some modicum of > > > common-sense and universal applicability. Over the last several > > centuries, > > > however, the dates of Hindu festivals had got de-railed completely > > as they > > > had got de-linked from seasons. It took me a lot of study and > > research and > > > efforts to arrive at the conclusion as to why it had happened so. > I was > > > helped to a great extent in my research by works like Bharatiya > > Jyotisha by > > > S. B. Dikshit, Report of the Saha Calendar Reform Committee and > > translation > > > of Panchasidhantika by Prof. Sarma (Adyar edition) etc. etc. > besides, of > > > course, Vedanga Jyotisha, the Puranas and the sidhantas themselves. > > > > > > > > > > > > Since I never consider myself a master of any subject, I therefore, > > wanted > > > to discuss this issue of calendar reform freely and frankly on this > > forum so > > > that I could remove my own cobwebs and misunderstandings, if any, > > about my > > > own conclusions by such discussions. And I must put on record > that the > > > discussions with several members have proved quite fruitful. > > > > > > > > > > > > Through all those discussions on this and other forums, it dawned on > > me by > > > and by that there was a direct conflict between " Vedic astrology " and > > > reforming the Hindu Calendar! Hindu calendar does not need any > > Mesha etc. > > > Rashis whereas " Vedic astrology " cannot survive without them--- that > > also so > > > called nirayana rashis! An easy way out was to to a so > called > > > Sayana Rashichakra, which I did for quite some time but it dawned on > > me very > > > late in the day that even that was anything but Vedic---since there > > are no > > > Mesha etc. Rashis in the Vedas or the Vedanga Jyotisha etc., it was > > > meaningless to talk of the Vedas having Sayana rashis and so on! > > > > > > > > > > > > This forum has as on date 260 members out of which hardly one per > > cent are > > > participating in the discussion of reforming the calendar! Quite > a few > > > other members, who participate in discussions at all, are more > > interested in > > > either proving their " Vedic astrology " skills! > > > > > > > > > > > > Of late, a tendency has developed in some of the members to talk in > > > parochial terms! I can understand that being born as a Kashmir > > Brahmin, I > > > must and will defend that culture to the best of my capacity and > > capability. > > > I also know that if I had been born in Maharashtra, perhaps I > would have > > > been worse than some of the fanatics there. Similarly, if I had been > > born in > > > Tamil Nadu, maybe I would have made it a point to prove that I am the > > > " original inhabitant " of Bharatavarsha whereas the rest are all > > > " infiltrators " . > > > > > > > > > > > > But the question that is begging an answer is: Whether I am from > > Tamil Nadu > > > or from Gujarat or Kashmir or from any other part of India, for that > > matter, > > > I am an Indian first and then a Hindu and it is only after those two > > > " qualifications " that I can call myself a Kashmiri or Tamilian and > > so on. > > > It will be otherwise like putting the cart before the horse! > > > > > > > > > > > > And since all the Hindus from whichever corner of the globe they > > are, must > > > have a uniform calendar---like Uttarayana (start of solar Magha) has > > to be > > > on the shortest day of the year, Vasanta Sampat (solar Vaishakha) on > > the day > > > when day and night are equal and so on for all the Hindus, it is > > high time > > > that we concentrate on the job for which this forum is > > meant---streamlining > > > the Hindu calendar! > > > > > > > > > > > > You can well imagine as to what type of a mockery it will be of our > > culture > > > if on the one hand we claim that we claim that we are the > descendants of > > > Rishis like Kashyapa, Vasishtha, Vishvamitra, Vamadeva or Agastya > > and so on, > > > but at the same time we do not know when to celebrate Uttarayana or > > > Dakshinayana or Pongal or Malayalam New Year etc. actually! It means > > we are > > > worse than the illiterate aborigines then---since they had a gut > > feeling as > > > to when it was going to be the shortest day of the year or when it > > would be > > > the longest day! > > > > > > > > > > > > What surprises me is as to why most of the members are just silent > about > > > this issue. The fact is that either we are celebrating our > > festivals and > > > muhurtas on correct days or on wrong days. If they think they are > > > celebrating them on correct days, naturally, they must have their > > logic and > > > reasoning, since all the members of this forum are highly qualified > > people. > > > Let them share their views with other members of this forum, and > > they can > > > rest assured that if those arguments are scientific and > scriptural, they > > > will definitely be taken into account and the entire theory/gamut of > > > calendar reform revised once again! > > > > > > This forum is not for fence sitters---it is a real > > brain-storming-exercise > > > for streamlining the Hindu calendar, if it is really wrong. > Either join > > > that discussion or just leave the forum! > > > > > > With regards, > > > > > > Moderator > > > > > > --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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