Vedic astrology! Eh? Nothing Vedic about it--K N Rao

[Guest guest]



 

post No. 11734 dt. July 19, 2008 , "K. P. Naidu"<konathalan wrote:Dear Learned Members,Reg the term Vedic Astrology, I give below the opinion of shri K.N.Rao, one of the great astrologers in India, r your kind perusal.Question: Just for the record I want to get a small but perhapsimportant clarification. The term Vedic Astrology is often used torefer to Jyotish. This term is more in usage now than ever before asfar as I can recall. Are we correct in calling Indian Astrology asVedic Astrology " in other words is Jyotish quoted in the Vedas directly?KNR: That is a good question. Technically, Jyotish should not becalled Vedic Astrology. For Yagnas[19] and Karmakanda[20] the Vedasare the authentic source. For the householders it is the Smritis[21].But both the Vedas and Smritis are in the Puranas[22]. Just as theentire Creation has emerged from Him, so too the entire literature ofthe world is an offshoot of the Puranas. There is no iota of doubtabout it. In the Vedas, there is no methodology provided to determineTithi[23], Vaar[24], Nakshatra[25], or planetary Sanchara (transits).Even the methodology for determining timing of Parvas (festivals), orEclipses is not mentioned in the Vedas. What is not in the Vedas is inthe Smritis. And whatever is not found in these two is to be knownfrom the Puranas.Through someone's fertile imagination it was decided to call Hinduastrology as Vedic astrology. I too fell into this trap and I neververified or clarified this with a competent Vedic scholar. But now Istand corrected. It is either Indian astrology or Hindu astrology.Vedic astrology does not exist at all. Having said that, the term“Vedic†is a great marketing tool especially in the new agemovement. So whether it is true or not, I suspect Vedic astrology willcontinue to be the preferred name for Indian Astrology especially inthe west. (Note - I asked K.N. Rao if I should stop using the term"Vedic astrology." He said, "It is all right in USA. Do as you havebeen doing." - - Vaughn Paul Manley 7/5/05)Members' opinion / comments are invited pl.Naidu KP--- End forwarded message ---

[Guest guest]

hinducivilization , " Jit Majumder "

<jitmajumder212 wrote:

 

 

<<<It is either Indian astrology or Hindu astrology. Vedic astrology

does not exist at all. Having said that, the term  " Vedicâ€Â

is a great marketing tool especially in the new age movement. So

whether it is true or not, I suspect Vedic astrology will continue to

be the preferred name for Indian Astrology specially in the west.>>>

 

 

 

and the primarily responsible for this trend are people like David

Frawley, George Fuerstein, Stephen Knapp, Michael Cremo and some of

their " students " like a young self-appointed " vedic historian " rodney

Lingham. These western Hindus have an unbalanced " vedic " fetish. They

are uncomfortable without being able to " trace " everything Hindu to

the " vedas " , and thereby reduce hinduism into hindu=only vedic. and

thus copntribute more to the damage in the Hindu's self-understanding

of his own culture and traditions. Not that by itself that brings to

question their intentions, contributions or talents.

David Frawley is not so extreme as Stephen Knapp, Cremo, or Lingham,

who claims Frawley as his mentor. Stephen knapp and Michale Cremo are

hard-core iskonites (hare krishnas). that may be the cause of

their " vedic " fetish, because these hare krishnas also use the

term " vedic " for each and everything with the same discrimination and

consideration for technical accuracy and relavance that a foul-

mouthed ruffian would use for his invectives and curses.

" vedic " has become a fantasy for many, without bothering to

investigate what can be historically and technically called " vedic "

and what cannot.

those intersted may visit stephen knapp's website or rodney lingham's

website. They seem to be uncapable of even giving titles to their

articles without having the " v " word in it. Hindus should thank these

over-enthusiastic new-age Hindus for losing all sense of proportion

and making giving a new meaning to a term whcih formerly was of a

very specific meaning and context. forget about jyotish. forget even

about the tantrik dasa mahavidyas or the tamil village goddesses.

these new-age " vedic " flagbearers will trace even the gods of the

meso-americans or the eskimos of patagonia or the voodoo rituals of

the carribeans to the " vedic literature " . may the vedic gods accept

our offering of soma and save us from the well-intentioned hijacking

by these new-age " vedic " seers!!

 

 

-- Jit Majumder

 

 

 

 

 

 

hinducivilization , " jyotirved " <jyotirved@>

wrote:

>

> post No. 11734 dt. July 19, 2008

> <HinduCalendar/post?

postID=EKdjEoajzohqxqdnlE0zuN6-Sir7XoIYma0FPBq6U014JAnENILpzlAuo_-

JZRWInJtNsWJ4n50O_2zi96Onsg24Pj9bVmK0iDhmBEnXNgsW>

, " K. P. Naidu "

> <konathalan@> wrote:

>

>

> Dear Learned Members,

>

>

> Reg the term Vedic Astrology, I give below the opinion of shri K.N.

> Rao, one of the great astrologers in India, r your kind perusal.

>

>

 

--- End forwarded message ---

[Guest guest]

Shri Shankar Bharadwaj-ji,

Namaskar!

 

Thanks for your comments/views.

 

<And the objections are not new either, it is again the

same obsession of demanding references in samhita for it to be

" Vedic " .>

 

I think it is proper to demand references in Samhitas because

even " Allah Upanishad " is said to be an Upanishad by some people as

per Swami Dayanada Saraswati in his Satyartha Prakash!  Some " freindly

neighbours " may as well say tomorrow  " Prophet Muhammad has been

discussed in the Rigveda " ! We certainly will demand references!

 

The main problem is that predictive gimmicks based on Mesha,

Vrisha etc. Rashis; Mangal, Shani etc. dreaded planets; Vimshotari, Yogini,

Ashtotari etc. etc. 36 Dasha-Bhuktis besides Hora, Dreshkan and even

Shashtyamsha etc. sub-divisions and Aapoklima, Kendra etc. Greek terms etc. are

being dubbed as Vedic astrology!  Since I have studied all the four Vedas besides

the  Vedangas, I can say it with certainty that there is not even the remotest

possibility of any such terms being present in any of the Vedas or the Vedangas

either in letter or in spirit!

 

In fact, prior to the Surya Sidhanta and Yavana Jatakam, we

do not find any references to any of these terms in any of the indigenous

astronomical works either like Rik Jyotisham or Yajur Jyotisham etc.  Even

Atharva-Jyotisha and Atharva-Veda Parishishta, which are most probably works of

a much later date, do not talk anything about Mesha, Vrisha etc. rashis, much

less about all the Nabahsa and other innumerable yogas and Dasha-bhuktis etc.

etc.

 

Thus if anybody calls these predictive gimmick as Vedic

astrology, he/she is certainly doing the greatest injustice to the Vedas as

well the Vedic ethos, because, the Vedic spirit is entirely against “bhagyavada”. 

 

As such, we cannot say that demanding proofs for " Vedic

astrology " being really Vedic is an obsession. It is the right and duty of

every sane Hindu.

What is most baffling and even pathetic is that the Mesha,

Vrisha etc. Rashis, as defined in the Puranas and even in the Sidhantas are not

the so called nirayana ones, as is being claimed by " Vedic

astrologers " but those Pauranic and sidhantic rashis are (so called)

Sayana rashis! It means that the so called Vedic Jyotish is not even Pauranic

or sidhantic but a bye product of fertile imagination of some jyotishis, and

must therefore be discarded at the earliest.

The tail piece is that because of this very " Vedic

astrology " , we are celebrating all our festivals and muhurtas on wrong

days, and more ironically, every “Hindu” is defending it!

Hence my disdain for " Vedic astrology " !

With regards,

A K Kaul

 

 

 

 

hinducivilization ,

" shankarabharadwaj " <shankarabharadwaj wrote:

>

> Well both tendencies are there - to mindlessly link

everything to Veda

> and to mindlessly delink everything from Veda. In this

case, the

> latter holds. It is also not a remote link, and there

is sufficient

> material available on this. And the objections are not

new either, it

> is again the same obsession of demanding references in

samhita for it

> to be " Vedic " .

>

>

> hinducivilization , " Jit

Majumder "

> <jitmajumder212@> wrote:

> >

> >

> > <<<It is either Indian astrology or Hindu

astrology. Vedic astrology

> > does not exist at all. Having said that, the term

 " Vedicâ€Â

> > is a great marketing tool especially in the new

age movement. So

> > whether it is true or not, I suspect Vedic

astrology will continue to

> > be the preferred name for Indian Astrology

specially in the west.>>>

> >

> >

> >

> > and the primarily responsible for this trend are

people like David

> > Frawley, George Fuerstein, Stephen Knapp, Michael

Cremo and some of

> > their " students " like a young

self-appointed " vedic historian " rodney

> > Lingham. These western Hindus have an unbalanced

" vedic " fetish. They

> > are uncomfortable without being able to

" trace " everything Hindu to

> > the " vedas " , and thereby reduce hinduism

into hindu=only vedic. and

> > thus copntribute more to the damage in the Hindu's

self-understanding

> > of his own culture and traditions. Not that by

itself that brings to

> > question their intentions, contributions or

talents.

> > David Frawley is not so extreme as Stephen Knapp,

Cremo, or Lingham,

> > who claims Frawley as his mentor. Stephen knapp

and Michale Cremo are

> > hard-core iskonites (hare krishnas). that may be

the cause of

>

[Guest guest]

hinducivilization , " Avtar Krishen Kaul "

<jyotirved wrote:

 

Shri Bhadraiah Mallampalliji,

Namaskar!

It is a highly researched post. Thanks. Your following statement is

very interesting

<it. " Vedic " astrology is beyond visibility for now, and

inconceivable until 1. Astrology is proven as a science and some

universal principles extracted from it; and 2. Veda is interpreted

completely and 3. The interpretation of veda proper agrees with claim

of astrology as a veda.>

 

My view is: 1. " Vedic astrology " is the greatest fraud on the Vedas

which (fraud) is definitely " visible " to all the " Vedic astrologers "

themselves but they do not want to lose their sinful crumbs by

admitting it! Aakhir paapi pet ka saval jo hai!

2. Astrology can never be proved as science if for no other reason

than the one that right from the time of Maya the mlechha's Surya

Sidhanta till the advent of modern astronomy (thanks to NASA/JPL) all

the astrological predictions are said to have been correct! That

just is impossible because if predictions are correct on the basis of

incorrect funamental arguments like that of the Surya Sidhanta or the

Aryabhati or the Brahma Sphuta Sidhanta or Sidhanta Shiromani or (the

most notorious work!) Grahalaghava, they can never be correct if

based on correct data from JPL/NASA! Secondly, if Surya Sidhanta

Ayanamsha is correct, all the other Ayanamshas are wrong! But then

Dr. Raman claimed that he made correct predictions from a different

Ayanamsha! Lahiriwalas claim that they are making correct

predictions from an entirely different Ayanamsha and so were

Yukteshwar and Cyril Fagan etc. etc. Wonder of wonders, of late, we

find quite a few " Vedic astrologers " making correct predictions (at

least that is what they claim!) from zero ayanamsha!

Thus this Ayanamsha riddle is the last nail in the coffin of

predictive gimmicks!

3. There is no question of " interpretations of the Vedas " by " Vedic

astrologers " since if they had realy read the Vedas they would

certainly have discarded preditive gimmicks like plague! At least

ninety nine percent of " Vedic astrologers " cannot read even a single

Sanskrit Shloka correctly --- leave alone interpreting it! As such,

these " Vedic astroogers " may catch " predicive larks " from the Vedas

when the sky falls, and that is not going to happen at least till the

Doomsday!

YES, THE SINISTER CONSEQUESNCES OF ALL THIS PREDICTIVE FRAUD IN THE

NAME OF VEDIC ASTROLOGY ARE THAT WE WILL BE CELEBRATING PAURANIC

MAKAR SANKRANTI ON JANUARY 14/15 INSTEAD OF DECEMBER 21!

With regards,

A K Kaul

 

hinducivilization , " Bhadraiah Mallampalli "

<vaidix@> wrote:

>

> Dear Jit Majumdar,

>

> >There also, we have no differences and conflicts of interest. That

is

> >my point also – that people should learn to give *everything* its

> >due. Not only the `vedas'.

>

> Thanks for spending your valuable time to post your reply.

>

> " Veda " is supposed to be the structured knowledge. it is the

> equivalent of " papers " published by scientists or mathematicians. A

> published paper documents knowledge or at least as claimed by the

> author. The " journal " is the compilation of such articles and can

be

> called " veda " in the modern sense.

>

> This does not mean that other forms of scientific documents are not

> facts. They are all unpublished papers or uninterpreted results (we

> call them tantras, shastras, smrtis and by other names. To discard

> them as useless is a fatal mistake. To say that the unpublished

> papers (tantras) originated from published papsers (veda) is

stupid.

> It is like saying Einstein derived his theory of relativity from

> Newton's works.

>

> Now we are in the unfortunate situation wherein we don't understand

> even 0.0001% of the Veda that we have, not to mention the total

Vedic

> corpus we have is less than 1% of what originally existed (well,

> except that intonations and at least one recension of each veda are

> 100% preserved). As such we can classify the existing veda

> as " tantra " because we can hardly understand anything in it.

>

> Seriously Tantra should be the next buzz word.. any takers for

> tantric astrology? Sorry I don't mean to make a comedy out of

> it. " Vedic " astrology is beyond visibility for now, and

inconceivable

> until 1. Astrology is proven as a science and some universal

> principles extracted from it; and 2. Veda is interpreted completely

> and 3. The interpretation of veda proper agrees with claim of

> astrology as a veda.

>

> Bhadraiah

>

 

--- End forwarded message ---

[Guest guest]

hinducivilization , " Bhadraiah Mallampalli "

<vaidix wrote:

 

hinducivilization , " Avtar Krishen Kaul "

>

>My view is: 1. " Vedic astrology " is the greatest fraud on the Vedas

>which (fraud) is definitely " visible " to all the " Vedic astrologers "

>themselves but they do not want to lose their sinful crumbs by

>admitting it! Aakhir paapi pet ka saval jo hai!

 

Knowing the truth value would also help us find out if it is a fraud.

How did you " know " it IS a fraud when you didn't know it is true

yet? " pet " (roti, kapda and aur makaan) is the most important thing

to save yourself and any gimmick is fine, and astrology is not a bad

business idea to make money when people don't want to sponsor ancient

subjects any more. Let us stop being shortsighted. In the absence of

a Hindu raja everything helps to preserve our subjects.

 

>2. Astrology can never be proved as science if for no other reason

>than the one that right from the time of Maya the mlechha's Surya

>Sidhanta till the advent of modern astronomy (thanks to NASA/JPL)

>all the astrological predictions are said to have been correct!

 

The type of results people have been expecting may be wrong. The

books you quote may have been calibrated for a different situation,

and may need 'interpretation' to apply them to today's sciences. I

have proved this to be true for vedas. I have not tried astrology

yet.

 

> YES, THE SINISTER CONSEQUESNCES OF ALL THIS PREDICTIVE FRAUD IN THE

> NAME OF VEDIC ASTROLOGY ARE THAT WE WILL BE CELEBRATING PAURANIC

> MAKAR SANKRANTI ON JANUARY 14/15 INSTEAD OF DECEMBER 21!

 

We need a Hindu Raja to implement this. I don't see a reason why you

shout at fellow scholars who may think otherwise. It is for a king to

decide festivals dates for a society; so catch a king who will accept

your opinion. Pandit can only advise people who ask for his opinion

one person at a time. When donkeys bark for dogs you know what

happens.

 

Regards

Bhadraiah

 

--- End forwarded message ---