Guest guest Posted March 24, 2009 Report Share Posted March 24, 2009 hinducivilization , " Avtar Krishen Kaul " <jyotirved wrote: Shri Sunil Nairji, Namaskar! <kaul has prooven many times he is a neo convert and trying to fish in troubles waters after spoiing the atmosphere .but luckily most of the memebrs /moderaters are at bliss and willing to listen to his delibearte twisting of facts suits to his whims and fancies> Pl. put the records straight yourself by " untwisting " the " twisted " facts! There is a message No. 34757 of March 17, 09, titled " Vedic astrologers read dharmashasras upside down " . Pl. give your views 1-O-1. Similarly, there is a document BVB6.doc in files section. Pl. counter those arguments 1-O-1. Then there is also Rotary.doc titled, " Vedic astrology " - the greatest fraud on the Vedas. Pl. do give your views 1-O-1. Besides, I am also surprised to see your support for Shri Wilkinson's so called Sayana Rashichakra which he claims to have " visualized " through yoga and tapasya, whereas, without exception, all the " nirayana Vedic astrologers " including you claim that the Hindus and they have been using a so called nirayana zodiac! Have u got converted to sayana zodiac or is it that you have buried your hatchet for the time being to corner poor Kaul! I do not believe in issuing threats of legal notices on the drop of a hat, though your words like, " For example in this same grp this kaul has prooven many times he is a neo convert and trying to fish in troubles waters after spoiing the atmosphere " and " he is having lack of intellectual honesty and has a hidden agenda and every mail will contribute to his monetary benefit ( as he need to show his fund givers that he is hardly working for it-other wise frm where he has got money and support in last 25 yrs to disturb 100s of grps and men tru prvt mails and still he is never short of anything materialisticaly ) " can land you in real trouble. It is in fact the magnanimity of hinducivlization forum that it has let such posts also appear without moderation, unlike astrology forums, whether " ancient " astrology or " Vedic astrology " which moderate every mail. You know it better yourself than anybody else since you are yourself one of the moderators of an astrology forum where you are moderating every post! Dhanyavad. A K Kaul hinducivilization , " sunil nair " <astro_tellerkerala@> wrote: > > > dear robert ji > > even many hindu grps are behaving same way same .For example in this > same grp this kaul has prooven many times he is a neo convert and > trying to fish in troubles waters after spoiing the atmosphere .but > luckily most of the memebrs /moderaters are at bliss and willing to > listen to his delibearte twisting of facts suits to his whims and > fancies > > his main claims are father taught by children and every one consume it v > happily > > what to say abt it pls start a new grp and i am willing to support u and > all > > even request to proov his calender is never answered and he is given > free ride on hindus those who support astrology tru all this grps > > but i know moderaters and grp pwners will never ban him > > as they thinks he is contributing some thing to hindu society in the > name of a un prooven calender > even he cannot compute any datas without help of NASA /JPL ( where on > earth veda has said such calneders will become vedic calenders - i am > using his own words ) > > rgrds sunil nair > > > > otherwise even in rigvvedic periods we hav all the various type of > calenders (solar ,savana ,lunar ,nakshtra etc ) and using it for various > purpose and without a suns degree no calenders is possible hence rasi > and imaginary zodiac claimed by AKK ( which is haram ( taboo )according > to his version of misunderstood vedas ) there is many slokas in vedas > that sun was in mrigasirsha on vasantha vishu also in brahmanas and > aranyaka shas many rferences ( but i reterate here vedas are not > astrology books where as astrology is an upaveda same like ayurveda and > such sastras ) > but i am in no mood to debate with him as he is having lack of > intellectual honesty and has a hidden agenda and every mail will > contribute to his monetary benefit ( as he need to show his fund givers > that he is hardly working for it-other wise frm where he has got money > and support in last 25 yrs to disturb 100s of grps and men tru prvt > mails and still he is never short of anything materialisticaly ) > > even he has never produced a supporting evidence or book frm > chaldeans or greeks or proof of a surviving tradition in them along with > historical datas that hindu seers copied them > but our hindu dharma volunteer sare supporting his mission very sadly > and happily i think need to chnage this scenario > > > > > hinducivilization , " Robert E. Wilkinson " > <robtw@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > A few weeks ago I wrote to Subash Razden the moderator of WAVES and > insisted that he remove Yeshu Rathenam from the group or take my name > off the list. Evidently he prefers the contributions of a christian > convert whose only agenda is to piss all over the sublime mysteries of > Hinduism. I have had enough of his nonsense. If there are any of you on > WAVES who are serious about your pursuit of Veda and wish to commit > yourselves to a mature and thoughtful discussion without the > disrespectful intrusions of fools like Rathenam, let me know and we will > organize a new group. > > > > Mr. Razden, please me from WAVES immediately. > > > > RE Wilkinson > > > > - > > yeshu rathenam > > Robert E. Wilkinson ; WAVES-Vedic > > Monday, March 23, 2009 2:27 AM > > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the Earth > > > > > > Satya yuga is a fanciful thinking and there is no scientific basis. > How can you foolishly call mythological characters as 'avatars?' When > you wake up, there is morning. How foolish it is to call the morning as > the gift of the goddess of dawn, the mythological Usha? What happens to > Usha during noontime? Where is she hiding during night? So it is all > foolishness. There is no 'secret of earth', and what you claim to be in > the primitive Rig Veda is not to be seen in any part of Rig Veda, but > most fanatics copy from modern geological books written by eminent > western scholars and tell lies that these portions are in the primitive > Rig veda. Why this deception, why this falsehood, Mr.Wilkinson? > > > > > > > > > > > ------\ > ------ > > Robert E. Wilkinson robtw@ > > WAVES-Vedic > > Sunday, March 22, 2009 9:14:47 PM > > [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the Earth > > > > > > Secrets of the Earth - 1 > > > > > > > > Questions and Answers on > > > > the Line of Ten Avatars > > > > of Vedic Tradition > > > > > > > > > > > > Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet > > > > Director, Aeon Centre of Cosmology > > > > March 2009 > > > > > > > > Q. You have written that the zodiac is the map of the evolution of > human consciousness as perceived from Earth. This is a very different > view from what most people think †" can you explain? > > > > A. Most people today, and in this I include astrologers, pundits of > various schools, cosmologists, and so forth, have not been initiated > into the art I will describe. They have not undergone the discipline > (sadhana) required to reveal certain timeless truths. Many millennia ago > a wiseman (or woman, more likely) did undergo the discipline I am > referring to. The result was a direct insight into a truth of being > which reveals many things; above all it reveals something of vital > importance to us today: the Earth’s purpose as the third planet > from the Sun. So totally was this discipline forgotten that today we > cannot conceive of our planet as being, as indeed having a > ‘purpose’. The result is that with the passage of time a > very different attitude evolved regarding the way we interact with the > Earth. Our attitude is simply one of exploitation: the Earth exists for > the human species to drain off her energy resources unthinkingly; to > strip her of her ‘clothing’ shamelessly; to pollute her > waters and vitiate the air she breathes, †" on and on the litany > goes. > > > > In the Vedic Age this attitude would have been unthinkable. Not only > was no violence done to the planet, she was treated as a Goddess, > honoured, even worshipped. She was installed in the pantheon of the Gods > along with the other personified forces as having a consciousness and a > personality. In the Veda we find countless verses in her praise; for > example, as Usha, the divine Dawn. Many other aspects of life on this > planet were similarly divinised to the extent that a wonderful harmony > existed between humans and Earth which remains in our species’ > memory as a Golden Age, a Satya Yuga or Age of Truth. > > > > With that reverential attitude the ways were discovered to > ‘listen’ to the planet and hear of her > ‘secrets’. In the Rig Veda we find descriptions of these > dialogues and the pathway of discovery. That dialogue and discipline are > foreign to us today, though we pretend that there is a firm connection > with those ancient roots.. But the connection exists in name only. > However, that is already an achievement because it is now a simple > matter to lift the veils the Time-Spirit has cast over these ancient > lights and to reveal once again their deep and purposeful content. > > > > Periodically this unveiling occurs. In Hindu tradition > the descent of one of the Avatars of the Line of Ten is the method to > lift the veils. Indeed, they are known as offspring of, precisely, the > Time-Spirit; and of Vishnu, the God of Preservation. > > > > > > > > Q. Astrology has become mostly a predictive art. What happened that > we lost the connection to the zodiac as a script for understanding the > Earth’s evolution? > > > > A. In the course of discovery a great revelation took place > millennia ago. This was the zodiac just as we know it today. The method > to preserve this knowledge over vast cycles of time was to use the human > being’s thirst for knowing the future; and this script is a > source of knowledge of destiny for the individual, as well as for the > species as a whole. The zodiac is indeed the ‘horoscope’ > of the Earth, and it can be ‘read’ just as one would read > of the character and destiny of a person from his or her natal chart. > This thirst for knowing the future was one method to preserve the Script > (the 12 hieroglyphs) down the ages, especially through periods when it > was dangerous to teach the Tradition openly. > > > > However, to read this Script is not a simple matter. The > wheel in discussion, like all circles, consists of 360 degrees. We may > arbitrarily select one degree of the 360 as a starting point from where > the count through the circle would begin. But if we wish to be accurate > and discover the truth in these arcane matters, there can be no > arbitrary selection: the true zero point must be known. Since the > discipline I refer to needed to be hidden from the profane, the simplest > way was to hide that zero point. Without that there could be no accuracy > and little true application; certainly nothing of its evolutionary > significance. This is precisely what happened in India with the official > adoption of the Nirayana system of computation for all Hindu > observances, and even for drawing up an individual’s horoscope. > Connection to the true zero point was effectively lost for both > individual and society. > > > > Regarding the individual however, the matter is simple > enough. The time of birth becomes the zero starting point of the circle; > in this way the zodiac was preserved. However, how can this > determination be reached when dealing with very vast cycles spread over > thousands of years? What would be the zero point of this 9th > Manifestation, for instance, covering more than 6000 years? We use the > Precession of the Equinoxes to arrive at a conclusion; but as any honest > astrologer will admit, it is virtually impossible to ascertain beyond > any doubt what point of the greater heavenly sphere should be considered > the starting point for calculations involving the passage of the > astrological ages over many thousands of years. This is where the > appearance of Vishnu’s emanations comes in. > > > > The Evolutionary Avatars, as I call them, have this primary task > before them when they take birth: resetting the cosmic clock. Let us > imagine this ‘clock’ as having the twelve zodiacal signs > instead of the twelve hours. As it stands in India today the use of the > constellations would take the place of those 12 symbols of the tropical > zodiac. But this is problematic in that no such accuracy can be > established using the constellations. It would be as if the > ‘clock’ had no hands to be able to read > ‘time’. There would be no applicable formula for cosmic > purposes, and certainly no possibility of deciphering this Script in the > way I will describe. > > > > At no other place on the globe except India do we find the living > tradition of an avataric function to re-set the cosmic clock, - indeed, > none that carries a precise cosmic task. However, many veils have > covered this mechanism; most difficult of all has been the loss of just > what is meant by an Avatar of the Line of Ten, or what ‘cosmic > credentials’ must exist to leave no doubt as to who that person > might be and what his coming must accomplish. It is the task of the > Avatar to remove these veils and to set humankind on the path to fulfil > the next stage of evolution, - the ‘scheme of avatarhood’, > as Sri Aurobindo has called it. > > > > The hour is darkest before the event and this is what we have been > witnessing over the past several hundred years, particularly in what > relates to that sacred Script. At this point in India , which I consider > to be the very land of its origin, a dense cloud covers its truth. More > than that: it would seem to be a conspiracy hatched to completely > eclipse its superior Light right in the land where it matters most. > > > > However, if the Avatar’s task is to remove these veils and > his coming is a fact of evolution, then we need to bear in mind that a > fundamental aspect of the Knowledge he brings must in a very deep sense > involve this cosmic script. > > > > Indeed it does. Moreover, in this Script we find the only > objectivity about the credentials he bears; and all the details of his > mission will conform to this Cosmic Truth. We can verify the validity of > this statement by referring to the 7th and 8th Avatars of Hindu > tradition. Sri Ram was the 7th in the line considered to be of the > ‘solar’ dynasty. Sri Krishna was the 8th, and his dynasty > was ‘lunar’. Starting with these designations, Solar and > Lunar, we note the zodiacal significance involved in their appearances: > the 7th of Ramavatar was indeed Solar, as astrological tradition > sustains by virtue of his appearance linked to a masculine sign; Sri > Krishna’s 8th was ‘feminine’, and therefore Lunar. > In the course of this discussion I will establish their > ‘credentials’ on the backdrop of this eternal Script based > on material drawn entirely from their respective Epics, which > Hindu/Puranic tradition has preserved so faithfully and accurately. > > > > > > > > Q. You have said that the real function of the zodiac has not been > fully appreciated by modern society. What needs to take place for this > new understanding to come about? > > > > A. As I have stated above, a new relationship has to evolve whereby > we view the Earth differently. Only then can we begin to appreciate the > finer points I am making. > > > > Of course I will be criticised by scientists as > advocating a return to nature worship, to animism, and similar beliefs > which today we view as superstition. But this is a case of throwing the > baby out with the bath water. Superstition is one thing, knowledge > another. Unless the right, the real keys of knowledge are used to > decipher the language I am describing, there is the very real risk of > these arts becoming mere superstition. > > > > A number of groups in the past, schools of different > persuasions, have incorporated certain aspects of the cosmic harmonies > in their various methods of studying reality. However, the results have > been inadequate due to the lack of integrality. All presented only > partial aspects, fragments, as they were called in one important school, > that of the noted teacher, G. I. Gurdjieff. Therefore there was little > applicability offered. And if we are in the era of science, then methods > need to be present to allow for a certain precision. One aspect is the > correct zero starting point in what concerns the Precession of the > Equinoxes, a slow motion of the Earth drawing a line backwards through > the signs, which indicates the particular astrological age we pass > through, each one lasting 2160 years. > > > > The Nirayana system of astrology and ritual used in > India is especially lacking in this respect, using as it does the circle > of constellations for computation and not the tropical zodiac. The > layman and even the pundits, who should know better, consider the > constellations as synonymous with the tropical zodiac. But there is no > justification for doing so; the result is an inoperable system both for > the individual (the natal horoscope) and Hindu Society (the calendar of > observances and timings). Naturally this situation is the breeding > ground of superstition. Pandit Nehru’s call was for science to > step in and save the nation from superstition; whereas it was precisely > the calendar produced by the Committee headed by scientists that gave > official support to superstition! > > > > In the first place, to change the present chaos into > some semblance of order †" a COSMIC order †" it is necessary > to return to a more reverential attitude toward the planet we inhabit. > We must accept, as in the Vedic Age, that she is our Mother. She > nurtures all living things and creatures in her bosom, without whose > grace we perish and certainly could never have reached our present stage > of evolution. Indeed, evolution is synonymous with Earth, it is safe to > say. We know of no other planet, in this solar system or elsewhere, that > houses a process of evolution such as ours. If we can collectively > return to such an attitude of reverence, then Mother Earth will > ‘speak’ to us, her many secrets to reveal. > > > > A word of caution, however. I am not advocating > fundamentalism in any shape or form. For instance, when I encourage a > conscious embracing of the Earth as ‘being’ similar to the > Vedic approach, please understand that we have to update whatever we > find in the Veda. The approach is the same, there are the same > ‘laws’ and methodology to apply, but we must carry these > over to the contemporary setting. The foundation remains the same but > the edifice we build today on those eternal foundations/ truths will be > different.. The means of expressing those truths will be coloured by > today’s forms of expression. We will not sing praises to the Gods > as the Rishis did in their age; but the results will be the same based > on the Language that has evolved in this new era. In other words, the > body is the same; we simply dress it up in modern attire according to > the Age of Vishnu we have entered. Given the integral nature of the > knowledge that has descended in this 9th Manifestation, the > ‘dress’ is as never before astonishing in its complexity, > beauty and elegance. We have indeed made huge strides ahead from the > Vedic Age. This is our grace, to be born on Earth at this particular > stage in her evolution. > > > > > > > > Q. How can you sustain that what you describe is > ‘Vedic’, or of the Vedic Age, when we know that the > current zodiac and its accompanying astrological system was created in > Babylon ? > > > > A. This is the first fallacy that must be dispelled. We have no > evidence that the zodiac originated in Babylon but only that certain > clay tablets were found there where its hieroglyphs were inscribed. To > be precise, we must leave aside any attempt to locate the place of its > origin. It is a fruitless exercise that cannot bear foolproof results. > Moreover, this discovery is not necessary; we need only focus on what we > have now and this eternal truth will reveal itself in a manner we can > understand and apply today. This is the most important part: > today’s application. > > > > > > > > Q. But what about the Veda. The common belief is that the zodiac as > we know it came to India with the Greeks. What have you to say about > this theory? > > > > A. Precisely that it is only a theory; there is no factual proof to > support the theory of a Greek import. However, we do have substantial > evidence in the Rig Veda that the Ancients were aware of the > zodiac’s symbols; more than that, the references in the Veda > reveal not only a widespread knowledge of its symbols but of the > Precession of the Equinoxes as well. > > > > > > > > Q. Can you be specific? All of this is confusing because it > contradicts current beliefs in this regard. > > > > A. Just as there are Nirayana astrologers and almanac writers who > defend that method because they all have vested interests in its > preservation, so too do Indologists cling to the belief that there are > no indications of the zodiac in the Veda. Furthermore, there is a > current school of thought that vehemently opposes such > ‘ideas’ out of a (fictitious) fear that if this proof were > found in the Veda it would lend credence to the European > Indologists’ dating of the Veda around 1500 BCE, and the > conclusions drawn on this basis regarding the primitive nature of the > inhabitants of the sub-continent who required the arrival of hordes from > Central Asia to learn of civilisation (!). So say these Indologists. > > > > Of course we know that the date of the Rig Veda is much > before 1500 BCE, simply because the actual penning of the hymns may have > taken place in the second millennium before the current era, but they > were handed down orally for many centuries prior to this transcription. > > > > Be that as it may, let us leave these speculations to > historians and Indologists. My position is another. I take what I find > in the preserved text without bias and let the hymns speak for > themselves. Admittedly one understands such texts only when one has > followed the same path the Rishis described. With that accomplished, you > do not search through the text for ‘clues’ to assist you > in piecing together a paradigm, a mosaic. You already have that mosaic > in your consciousness- being through the sadhana undertaken and based on > it you recognise the details of its shape and form in the hymns. > > > > > > > > Q. How do you mean? How can one acquire this special state that > permits ‘recognition’, as you call it? > > > > A. This is possible when the very same ‘journey’ is > undertaken that is described in the Veda. Little can be grasped of the > ‘secret’ of the Veda, as Sri Aurobindo wrote of in his The > Secret of the Veda without the same path followed and the realisation > attained as it is minutely recorded in the text. > > > > > > > > Q. How can scholars approach a study of the Rig Veda successfully > since they are not yogis? > > > > A. Precisely because they are scholars and not yogis that > ‘secret’ eludes them and so many unproven theories have > been passed off as facts; namely, the Aryan Invasion hypothesis of which > no mention is found in the Veda! > > > > On the other hand, with the Vedic realisation †" > predating Buddhism, Vedanta and its various schools and offshoots, and > the religious experiences of the later faiths †" the hymns are > crystal clear. Each detail may not be understood in full, but the > background canvas onto which the hymns have been etched is known. We > make allowances for that ‘updating’ I mentioned. And that > canvas is the cosmos and the truths it contains when revealed by the > Vedic ‘journey’. > > > > > > > > Q. You say that to understand we must be yogis, then how do you > expect the layperson to follow what you are sustaining? > > > > A. I repeat, the duty of the Evolutionary Avatar is to re-set the > cosmic clock; and more precisely to draw the veils aside and reveal the > Cosmic Truth that the Ancient Ones knew so well. The time of the coming > is important because that is when these truths are brought to the > surface and are self-evident. > > > > Let me provide an example. It will answer several > questions raised during this session †" that is, the proof that > the zodiac and symbols we use today are found in the Veda; that the > Ancients knew of the Precision of the Equinoxes and made use of this > knowledge fully; that the coming of the Evolutionary Avatars was a firm > part of the ancient tradition and not merely a later Puranic revelation. > And finally, there is the actual diagram the Rishis described in its > full form to decipher the evolutionary process woven around the > Dasavataras. To answer these and other questions I will quote Sri > Aurobindo’s translation of certain verses from the Rig Veda, the > only praises to Vishnu among the hymns. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Secrets of the Earth - 2 > > > > > > > > Questions and Answers on > > > > the Line of Ten Avatars > > > > of Vedic Tradition > > > > > > > > > > > > Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet > > > > Director, Aeon Centre of Cosmology > > > > March 2009 > > > > © Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet 2009 > > > > > > > > > > > > Q. You said the praises to Vishnu prove several points you made. Can > we review those hymns with you †" because if what you claim is > true, then our thinking would be revolutionised, it seems to me. > > > > A. Quite so. But before presenting the praises to Vishnu from the > Rig Veda, I must first quote verses from the ancient texts which provide > the formula for understanding the Vishnu verses. These strange praises > have been largely misunderstood. I say ‘strange’ because > they are the only hymns in the entire collection to this important > Godhead. Therefore I, for one, consider that they were purposefully > included because of their singular importance, primarily as being the > most revealing key to the Dasavataras. But first, the formula is as > follows: > > > > > > > > Twelve spokes, one wheel, navels three. > > > > Who can comprehend this? > > > > On it are placed together > > > > Three hundred and sixty like pegs. > > > > They shake not in the least. > > > > (Rig Veda 1.154.48) > > > > > > > > One is the wheel; the bands are twelve; > > > > three are the hubs †" who can understand it? > > > > Three hundred spokes and sixty in addition > > > > have been hammered therein and firmly riveted… > > > > (Atharva Veda X, 8) > > > > > > > > I have used these lines time and again to prove several points. > Namely, that ‘the circle is one’, and that the 360 > ‘pegs’ inserted in that circle are ‘firmly > riveted’, they ‘shake not in the least’. But there > is one line I have not discussed in my former analyses: > ‘…navels three’ (RV); or from the Atharva Veda, > ‘three are the hubs’. > > > > Considering that the ‘circle is one’ the > stability the Rishi invokes must refer to these 360 ‘pegs’ > (degrees of the circle). At the same time, how can the > ‘hubs’ be three in this one circle? What might the Rishi > mean and why has this been specifically mentioned? I will proceed to > clear the air surrounding this mystery, by which means we can happily > state that, yes, these special verses have indeed been finally > deciphered in their more accurate meaning. Moreover, confirmation will > come precisely from the hymns to Vishnu. It is through these that the > precise meaning of the three hubs is explained. Here are the Vishnu > hymns: > > > > > > > > 1. Of Vishnu now I declare the mighty works, who has measured out > the earthly worlds and that higher seat of our self-accomplishing he > supports, he the wide-moving, in the threefold steps of his universal > movement. > > > > 2. That Vishnu affirms on high by his mightiness and he is like a > terrible LION that ranges in the difficult places, yea, his lair is on > the mountain-tops, he in whose three wide movements all the worlds find > their dwelling-place. > > > > 3.. Let our strength and our thought go forward to Vishnu the > all-pervading, the wide-moving BULL whose dwelling- place is on the > mountain, he who being One has measured all this long and far-extending > seat of our self-accomplishing by only three of his strides. > > > > 4. He whose three steps are full of the honey-wine and they perish > not but have ecstasy by the self-harmony of their nature; yea, he being > One holds the triple principle and earth and heaven also, even all the > worlds. > > > > 5. May I attain to and enjoy that goal of his movement, the > Delight, where souls that seek the godhead have the rapture; for there > in that highest step of the wide-moving Vishnu is that FRIEND of men who > is the fount of the sweetness. > > > > 6. Those are the dwellings-places of ye twain which we desire as > the goal of our journey, where the many-horned herds of Light go > traveling; the highest step of wide-moving Vishnu shines down on us here > in its manifold vastness. (Rig Veda 1.154) > > > > > > > > > > > > From these sacred-most verses the famous three strides of the Vishnu > legend (Vishnu Trivikrama) evolved. The most common explanation is what > appears to be given in verse 4: the triple principle and earth and > heaven also, even all the worlds. But note that in this verse none of > the ‘steps’ are mentioned, as we find in verses 2, 3, 5, > where their designation and function are far more precise and > applicable. The other satisfies scholasticism and punditry, no doubt, > because the scholar can use the verses themselves (wrongly) to prove a > point if pressed. But this God is not measuring subtle dimensions; > rather the Rishi gives us the exact key in these praises to both > identify the Evolutionary Avatar, as well as to provide the correct > time-frame for the coming. One who has undertaken the Vedic > ‘journey’ is not satisfied with the common interpretation. > If these are the only hymns to Vishnu in the entire text, then there > must be something extremely important in them. And indeed, there is. > > > > > > > > Q. How do you make a distinction, on what basis? > > > > A. The very first verse sets the tone and gives the key to how the > hymns must be understood. The Rishi makes it clear that this > all-pervading God ‘measures out the earthly worlds’. This > is a specific reference to the Earth’s position in the solar > system. Obviously this is where ‘earthly worlds’ are > located. There is another verse where the Rishi refers to the > ‘months’ as having ‘doors’, and these > ‘worlds’ moving into one another effortlessly, indeed as > the zodiacal signs do of the ecliptic. And they are > ‘subtle’ in the sense that Time is measurable but elusive. > Such is the meaning of ‘worlds’. They are dimensions of > Time, of our Earth, earthly: ‘Certain eternal worlds are these > which have come into being, their doors are shut to you (or, opened) by > the months and the years; without effort one (world) moves in the other, > and it is these that Brahmanaspati has made manifest to > knowledge…’ (II.24.25). > > > > But the Rishi goes further to include the outer sphere in the > measuring act, while always positioned in his vision on Earth, the > starting point for all measuring. This is that ‘higher seat of > our self-accomplishing’ , which the Rishi states Vishnu SUPPORTS. > It is an extremely important declaration †" for us it is a vital > clue. This ‘higher seat’ is exactly what this act of > measuring is all about. It is the same zodiac of the ecliptic projected > out to the circumscribing heavenly sphere †" the vault of heaven > as it were. By stating that Vishnu supports that sphere, it is more than > clear that all measuring takes place from this Earth base, from where > ‘support’ is given to the outer sphere. Not the reverse, > mind you, as is currently practiced in all ‘acts of > measuring’ in India . > > > > Sri Aurobindo throughout his treatment of the Rig Veda translates > this as ‘the seat of our self-accomplishing’ ; that is, > the pathway of the Journey, or the Initiates way of > ‘self-accomplishment’ . > > > > It needs to be noted that these steps are to ‘measure the > universe’ specifically. The last line again gives the location of > the ‘dwelling places’ with greater precision by mention of > the place where the ‘herds of Light’ go travelling’ > †" that is, the ecliptic, or in this case, the greater sphere > insofar as the Rishi notes that this ‘measuring’ is being > done via the Precession of the Equinoxes which depends entirely on the > ecliptic since it is that plane (which Vishnu ‘supports’), > within which the planets travel around the Sun that traces a line in the > heavens in a backward motion to produce the Precession. I will explain > this in more detail further on. > > > > > > > > Q. This interpretation is entirely different than others. You said > you use Sri Aurobindo’s translations. > > > > A.. For the most part yes, because he ‘knew’ that > pathway. Then through his translations I realised that this was the > ecliptic, and also the role of the Vedic Gods Varun, Mitra and Bhaga. > More importantly, I found confirmation thanks to Sri Aurobindo’s > translations of the eternal nature of certain diagrams that I had come > upon in the course of my ‘journey’. One of the most > important of these is my Map of the 12 Manifestaiton, reproduced > opposite. In it we find precise references to the Ten Avatars. This is > why I state that scholars cannot reveal the ‘secrets’ of > the Veda; only a yogi †" and a Mahayogi such as Sri Aurobindo was, > at that! > > > > Thus these words mean exactly what they state - Vishnu moves across > the ecliptic in three strides, each one of which refers to one of his > ten emanations. In this instance the specific reference is to the 7th > (the Lion); the Bull (the 8th); and finally the 9th (the Friend). But > when the Vedic keys of knowledge were lost, naturally, as the Rishi > questions, Who can comprehend this? > > > > The primary key lies in the details given about the > ‘one circle’ with ‘three hubs’. The key here > is that the circle bearing 360 pegs/degrees is fixed, one. And on that, > within that we find the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Map of the 12 Manifestations > > > > > > > > 1 Age (1 sign/astrological age) = 2160 years > > > > 1 Manifestations (3 signs/astrological ages) > = 6480 years > > > > 1 Round (12 signs/astrological ages) = > 25,920 years > > > > 1 Great Circle (12 Manifestations) = 77,760 > years > > > > 1 Greater Circle (4 Great Circles, or 144 > signs) = 311,040 years > > > > > > > > > > > > The Gnostic Circle, Aeon Books (1975) > > > > The New Way, Volume 2, Aeon Books (1981) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hubs positioned. These are not the three worlds or dimensions as > scholars and Sanskritists interpret; they are quite literally circles > within that one circle. In other words, the three hubs are three circles > in one. But when we add dynamism to that circle via the accurate zero > starting point, then these take on a spiraling movement spreading out > from a central hub (the one circle). They would then rightfully be three > because each spiral traces a new circle in a sense, but always on the > backdrop of the single circle of 360 ‘pegs’ that > ‘shake not in the leaast’. > > > > My diagram here reproduced provides the visual, factual > transcription. The verses are laid out in this diagram with every item > of the text finding its exact place within the whole. We note that > Vishnu’s signs of Preservation are especially highlighted in the > figure by the diagonals pointing to the four astrological signs of FIXED > energy quality; or Preservation of the trinity Creation, Preservation, > Destruction. > > > > The correct zero point, or the ‘key to open the > door’, sets the circle/spirals in motion and they thereby offer > the date of the appearances of the Vishnu Dasavataras.. This would be > the very first necessary step to reach accuracy; and ultimately to > discern the real sense in the descent of the Vishnu emanations, as well > as the only astrological age during which period they appear. When we > apply the formula based on this Shruti, we come to appreciate that the > Ten Avatars can take birth to re-set the cosmic clock only during those > precise Ages of Vishnu as the Map indicates. As I will explain, this was > most accurate for the 7th and 8th Evolutionary Avatars, Ram and Krishna > . But regarding the 9th, his appearance having occurred during a very > dark age, there is widespread confusion. The situation has reached a > nadir in our times when every Guru is described by his devotees as the > Avatar. On the other hand, we can gauge the full extent of the darkness > when we observe that the disciples and devotees of the real Avatar of > Vishnu’s line deny him his birthright! Consequently, we must view > this confusion as having a specific ‘design’, or > ‘agenda’. > > > > > > > > Q. These Gurus you mention often have millions of followers. Can > they all be wrong? > > > > A. Fortunately in these matters quantity is not the issue; quality > is. By this I mean those who have attained Knowledge by direct insight > based on a very special sadhana. Mystery Schools have traditionally had > few members †" which were most often restricted to a certain > number, one that would harmonise with the purpose of the School. The > knowledge of these arcane matters is still today the preserve of such a > School. When there are hundreds of followers of a master, we can be > fairly certain that the deep knowledge is absent, particularly of an > evolutionary nature, mainly because this is not a question of devotion. > Rather, the member of the Mystery School is not noted for his or her > devotion, though that too may be present, but a dedication to Truth and > its discovery as the sole pursuit of value in life, very much like a > true scientist. I will provide a specific example of how this works > further on when I present the cosmic credentials of the Vishnu Emanation > of this 9th Manifestation. In so doing you will appreciate how difficult > discernment can be, and how little a part devotion plays in this regard. > Great precision is required in this Age †" the same that we find > in the Epics. > > > > > > > > Q. I can see how the Vedic verses you quote have been given a > diagrammatical form in your Map. How did you come by this, and when? > > > > A. Your question provides me with the opportunity to explain in > further detail what I mentioned earlier: in these matters of higher > knowledge one does not consult the ancient texts as a scholar would, and > based on what is found various clues are pieced together for the > construction of one theory or another. This is the mental approach. In > my work it is characterized as a linear process. > > > > On the other hand we have the time-honoured method of sages, > particularly the Rishis. This was discovery by direct perception and > experience of Truth. The discipline to attain this state was rigorous, > then and now. But it is the only method that can give non-speculative > results. When such is the case, as I mentioned earlier, the ancient > texts serve as confirmation of the new insights. This can and does > happen when the new is based on the same as the original, eternal > foundation of the Vedic Age. The cosmos provides that foundation, > eternally relevant, for you must bear in mind that as long as the cosmos > lives, so long will, this cosmic truth live and be the foundation of the > quest. > > > > Having stated this, with reference to the sanatana > Dharma, the background for this important description of our Vedic roots > is made clear: it refers to that cosmic foundation. But schools, > philosophies, paths arose when the Vedic Age had passed, all of which > viewed that cosmic/material manifestation as somehow unreal. Finally it > was called maya, devoid of its divine qualification as in Vedic times. > The Divine Maya was indeed the Architect of the Transcendent, > responsible for giving FORM to that highest truth of being. Stripped of > her divinity and superior function during the Earth’s dark age > after the passing of Krishnavatar, sanatana Dharma could not be so > easily defined. From that point onward defining itself became messy > business mainly because the tool for defining is the Divine Maya > herself, as indeed the word maya indicates, - to measure. > > > > Having lost that most important connection, which gave > legitimacy to the sanatana qualification, confusion set in; it has > reached its peak in our times, precisely because this is Vishnu’s > Age: the Avatar comes to restore order. Today the title sanatana dharma > is bandied about freely by all and sundry, even by those whose essential > nature and objectives should not lay claim to this eternity of the > Dharma, - the realisors of the post-Vedic paths. Let it be clear that > when we speak of dharma there must be a connection with material > manifestation; more especially with an evolving truth of being. And when > time and evolution are involved, the cosmos is implicit, - i.e., > movement, the preserve of Shakti. > > > > Of course not many will agree, mainly because the matter > has not been reasoned through, brought to its logical conclusion. If > that is done then of course the definition of sanatana dharma is clear, > and dependence on the cosmic structure and mechanism (motion) for its > eternal character would be known to be fundamental. > > > > This being clear, you will better understand why I am > putting so much time and energy into defining, as above. Too often words > are used but their real meaning is not understood: they have no factual > basis, no meaning derived from experiential proof. This is the case with > sanatana dharma. I state here emphatically that this Dharma is truly > eternal only because it is rooted in the Cosmic Truth, the universe that > surrounds us †" but of course seen with a fully focused > ‘lens’. And for this reason, again I repeat, as long as > the cosmos lives, so long will the Dharma live. > > > > > > > > Q. You have made your point. The problem we have is that everyone > knows that the Dharma does have this ‘cosmic truth’, as > you call it, for its foundation. Throughout the many artistic > expressions it has given rise to, we see this cosmic web. All Hindus > know this, believe this. They also know that the Gods are > personifications of the cosmic energies of our universe. So, what is the > problem? > > > > A. There is a very big problem, more problematic for Hindus than for > others. In the post-Vedic cultures on the subcontinent we find > distortion of that ‘canvas’ to the perceiving eye. This > has resulted in a degeneration over the centuries where what we have > today is certainly not Cosmic Truth but Cosmic Ignorance. Worst of all, > it is not identified as ‘ignorance’; rather, the Sanatana > Dharma is considered to be ever linked to the Vedas. That would give it > its ‘eternity’ †" those Vedic roots. But let us be > clear, those roots are ever and always truth, not > ‘ignorance’. Yet the latter displaced the truth-essence > precisely when the cosmic manifestation with its many involved material > dimensions was demoted to a lower rung on the echelon of Reality by > considering it to be merely maya. More pointedly, when everything in > motion was impermanent and therefore devoid of transcendent > truth-essence. How can what is impermanent, changing, unstable, relative > (the Eistein addition) be considered Truth? This was the reasoning which > arose and became solidified during the Age of Pisces prior to ours. > > > > The problem of distortion is most readily recognized in what relates > directly to the cosmos, which relies on that ‘canvas’ for > its eternal relevance. The Nirayana system of astrological computation > and temple observances uses this distorted canvas for its calculations. > I pointed out that the zero starting point (ayanamsha) is the > single-most important key to open the Vedic ‘doors’ of > Knowledge. The ayanamsha of the Nirayana system has no relation to the > Earth and her place in the cosmic harmony. It is therefore a false > premise, and building any construction (the horoscope or temple timings) > on this foundation must reveal that Cosmic Ignorance at its heart. > > > > > > > > Q. What you are stating, if I have understood correctly, is that > whoever has used this method of computation has come up with wrong > results, or at least one that cannot lay claim to being Vedic in the > sense you explain. > > > > A.. Yes, this is unfortunately so. Worse yet, this distortion has > been further institutionalised by the government when it added the study > of ‘Vedic’ Astrology to university curricula. This is one > of the most regrettable developments in contemporary politics †" > again, scientists and politicians poking their nose in matters that do > not concern them. If they were honest enough to call these courses > Post-Vedic, the true name, things would not be as bad as they are. > > > > And yet, it is such a simple matter to regain the title > Vedic legitimately. To do so those having the power to take decisions > must turn to people versed in the real Veda, those who bear the right > credentials and can demonstrate a body of knowledge consistent with what > is described in the texts. This has to be factual, I must add. > > > > A word of clarification is required at this point. > Jyotish is an intuitive art. Intuition is required in reading a > horoscope because we are dealing with a synthetic system. There are many > elements to choose from in analysing an individual’s horoscope. > Intuition is the tool for making correct judgments and selections. One > astrologer is deemed better than another when his or her intuitive > capacity is more finely developed. > > > > I mention this because Nirayana post-Vedic astrologers > argue that using their system (rejected by me) they have made many > correct predictions for their clients, so how can I claim that their > system is wrong? I can answer this with detailed precision, and I will > deal with this specific argument further on. Suffice now to state that > Indians, due to their culture and inherited tendencies, have greater > intuition than most. But this is applicable for the individual, - in a > very limited sense, I must quality; it is surely no longer science. > Certainly this intuitive method plays no role in calendar matters for > temple purposes where a collective body is involved. Then we need > science, but not of the kind Pandit Nehru advocated: Science as found in > the Veda. > > > > > > > > > > > > (To be continued) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------\ > ------ > > > > > > > > Checked by AVG. > > Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.11.22/2015 - Release Date: > 3/20/2009 7:01 PM > > > --- End forwarded message --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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