Guest guest Posted April 1, 2009 Report Share Posted April 1, 2009 Shri Vinay Jha ji, Namaskar! Many thanks for your response. <Overwhelming majority of supporters of modern science are atheists like you,> If everyone who does not believe in predictive gimmicks is an atheist then Aryasamajis are atheists and Swami Dayanada Sarasvati, their founder, must be the greatest atheist because he called jyotishis as Popejis! (I am no Aryasmaji, though!) Even yogi Ramadev of Patanjala Yoga Peetha, Haridwar, is very sore with jyotishis, because, instead of following the Patanajala yoga to remove their ailments and other miseries, they want their clients to remove Kalasarpa-dosha and what not supposed to have been created by non-existent mathematical points viz. Rahu/Kethu. Is he also an ahtiest? <You are pushing modern definitions upon ancient terms just to make those terms meaningless.> No. You are absolutely wrong! I find, on the other hand, modern sciences giving a better explanation of ancient Indian philosophies which are difficult for a layman to understand! For example, I could not understand as to how jala-tatva could be an amalgam of agni-tatva and vayu-tatva but when I read the formula for water as H2O, I was wonder struck! H2 is combustible and O supporter of combustion—agni-tatva--- and the two form a chemical compound called Water (jala-tatva)! And H2 and O, both are gases i.e. Vayu! That means Agni-tatva itself is an amalgam of Vayu, since H2 and O, are nothing but Vayu! My God! So how can we say that science is teaching something against Hindu philosophy and making us atheists! Similarly, I could never have believed the phantasmagoria of Yogavasishtha Maharamayana that not only is this universe of ours a “boundless” (even if finite!) entity, but there are literally infinite such other universes and even anti-universes! It was only modern astrophysics that made me realize that Vasishtha Muni was telling Truth and nothing but Truth! When I read in the Vedas/Upanishadas that the vast universe we live in, with all its trillions of galaxies, is also a phantasmagoria, I could never believe it but when the same Truth was explained by E=MC squared, it was a revelation to me that the Universe was nothing but Energy---a “physical phantasmagoria”. I suggest you go through Yogavasishtha Maharamayana and you will realize for yourself that modern sciences strengthen our faith in our Vedas and Hindu philosophies, instead of making us atheists! A living example is modern giant of Astrophysics, Prof. Jayant Narlikar, who also does not believe in predictive gimmicks! But then he is no atheist by any standards! <but overwhelming majority of creators of modern science were believers (in astrology) like Newton, Einstein, Shroedinger, etc.> There is no recorded evidence to show that they believed in astrology! And if those “creators of modern science” did believe in astrology, as claimed by you, that means Hindu astrology is completely bunkum even then since Newton, Einstein and Schroedinger must have been getting their charts delineated, if at all they got them delineated, through so called Sayana Rashichakra and Secondary Progressions and found the delineations correct, so as to be interested in astrology! And since the so called Vedic astrology is anything but so called sayana, and going by imaginary dasha-bhjuktis, apart from Greek yogas like Sunapha, Anapha, Durduhura and Greek amshas like Dreshkana and Greek bhavas like Panaphara, Apoklima etc., that means the so called nirayana rashichakra with all the Greek terminology has no support from any scientist listed by you! <Root of the problem with you and most of persons like you lies in the fact that material objects of sky are regarded as planets, and it is forgotten that in ancient Indian astrology grahas were regarded as deities and were therefore conscious non-material elements.> I agree with you cent per cent that “grahas” in ancient India were deities and conscious non-material elements! Brihaspati in the Vedas and Puranas has been said to be the preceptor of gods. Shani, as per the Puranas, is the son of Chhaya and Sun, and not a dead planet moving in the skies with rings around it! Mangal is the son of Narkasura and prithvi and not the planet Mars that jyotishis are trying to propitiate on every Tuesday! Budha is the illegitimate child of Moon and Tara, the wife of Brihaspati. What has that Budha to do with planet Mercury! Shukra is one-eyed and is the preceptor of Asuras. How can the dead planet named Venus be the preceptor of asuras! The Pauranic entities certainly are deities. And it is “Vedic astrologers” and neither scientists nor me, who are denigrating the deities by confusing them with wandering namesake inanimate objects! Otherwise why are you calculating the "longitudes" (sic!) of those deities with the help of JPL/NASA? How can you keep a tab on those deities as to what the “Devanam guruh” is doing or where the deities are by knowing as to where an inanimate wandering body that is also the name sake of Jupiter or Saturn or Mars Jupiter and so on, is? The astronomical qualities of none of the planets tally with what our shastras have said about the qualities of deities! As such, it is, again, “Vedic astrologers” and not me, who are completely confusing deities with inanimate wandering bodies, which are always hammered by one or the other comet or meteorite or satellite and so on! If those inanimate wandering bodies do not know their own future nor can they prevent any mishaps to their own “persona”, how can they predict my future or that of my country or ward off my evils? <If you can put aside your physical astronomy for a while and try to test astrology on the basis of Phalita part,> I have put aside physical astronomy already! That is why I go on shouting from housetops that we must not believe in inanimate name sake bodies of our deities of Jupiter etc. We must develop highly spiritual and intuitive machinery to seek the help of the real deities and not inanimate wandering bodies to peep into the future, if we will be interested in doing so at all even after attaining spiritual heights really! <Are you ready to apply an unbiased scientific method to astrology before discarding it out-and-out ???> I hope it is the most unbiased scientific approach to segregate our scriptural deities from inanimate wandering bodies instead of subjecting our spiritual deities also to the tyranny of JPL and NASA! What is also most injurious to the Vedic and Pauranic culture is subjecting divine Incarnations like Bhagwan Rama and Krishna etc. to the suzerainty of these inanimate bodies----who are like “Eyeless in Gaza” themselves—and that also on the basis of calculations of JPL/NASA. Our shastras have said “devo bhootva yajet devan, na adevo devam yajet”. i.e., “to worship a deva you must become a deva first yourself. You must not worship devas without becoming a deva yourself”. As such, if we really want to understand the “Brhaspati” that has been addressed to in the Vedic mantras with requests, “sham no brihaspatir dadhatu”, we must become Brihaspati ourselves first. And instead of becoming “devanam guruh” if you want to become a wandering inanimate body, bombarded by comets like Schumacher-Levi, who is going to stop you! But then I would not advise such a course to any of my friends! Our Rishis like the Manu, Atri and Bhishma have in fact warned that the ones who run after namesake Brihaspati etc. instead of the real deities are nakshatra-soochis/nakshara-jeevis! Chanakya also has advised kings that they should not “enquire too much about nakshatras” since the wandering nakshatras cannot do anything, being “inanimate” themselves! Anyway, since we are living in a democracy and nobody can stop anybody from putting everything at stake for some inanimate wandering bodies, I hope You will agree with me that at least the wandering bodies Mars, Saturn and Mercury etc. are not at all related to geographical phenomena like the two Solstices and two equinoxes, which are the fulcrum of the Vedic months Madhu, Madhava etc. around which circumnavigate our festivals and muhurtas and the synodic lunar months. Why not, as such, leave at least the Vedic calendar alone! With regards, A K Kaul PS I shall be out of town for about a week or so. Pl. bear with me if u don’t get a response to ur mail, if any. AKK InIndian_Astrology_Group_Daily_Digest , "vinayjhaa16" <vinayjhaa16 wrote: > > Kaul Jee, > > You are pushing modern definitions upon ancient terms just to make those terms meaningless. Overwhelming majority of supporters of modern science are atheists like you, but overwhelming majority of creators of modern science were believers like Newton, Einstein, Shroedinger, etc. > > Root of the problem with you and most of persons like you lies in the fact that material objects of sky are regarded as planets, and it is forgotten that in ancient Indian astrology grahas were regarded as deities and were therefore conscious non-material elements. Imposition of modern physical astronomy upon non-physical discipline causes all the trouble. Persons like you are adamant on not testing the validity of astrology on astrological grounds, ie, on the basis of its predictive part Phalita Jyotisha, and are intent on testing it on the basis of physical astronomy alone. This is mere prejudice. > > If you can put aside your physical astronomy for a while and try to test astroloy on the basis of Phalita part, a whole new world will open upto you. Are you ready to apply an unbiased scientific method to astrology before discarding it out-and-out ??? > > -VJ > > > Indian_Astrology_Group_Daily_Digest , "jyotirved" <jyotirved@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Shri Robert E. Wilkinsonji, > > > > Namaskar! > > > > I have gone through your message (#2681 of March 23 in the WAVES-VEDIC > > forum) i.e. the Q & A session of your mentor several times. Since it is a > > topic about reforming the Hindu calendar, I thought it better to record my > > views. > > > > The Q & A session is actually about the zodiac, its types and divisions > > vis-à-vis predictive astrology and the Vedic calendar and even divine > > incarnations and consists of such questions/answers as: > > > > "Q. Astrology has become mostly a predictive art. What happened that we lost > > the connection to the zodiac as a script for understanding the Earth's > > evolution?". > > > > And the answer to this question by your mentor is > > > > A. In the course of discovery a great revelation took place millennia > > ago. This was the zodiac just as we know it today. The method to preserve > > this knowledge over vast cycles of time was to use the human being's thirst > > for knowing the future; and this script is a source of knowledge of destiny > > for the individual, as well as for the species as a whole. The zodiac is > > indeed the `horoscope' of the Earth, and it can be `read' just as one would > > read of the character and destiny of a person from his or her natal chart. > > This thirst for knowing the future was one method to preserve the Script > > (the 12 hieroglyphs) down the ages, especially through periods when it was > > dangerous to teach the Tradition openly. > > > > > > > > The whole edifice of discussion in the entire Q & A session is thus > > revolving around zodiac, its types and its utility vis-à-vis the Avataras of > > Vishnu, human evolution and so on, besides of course, the predictive part > > and the Vedic calendar. > > > > Your mentor has made very valiant attempts, claiming that ,"Most people > > today, and in this I include astrologers, pundits of various schools, > > cosmologists, and so forth, have not been initiated into the art I will > > describe. They have not undergone the discipline (sadhana) required to > > reveal certain timeless truths. Many millennia ago a wiseman (or woman, more > > likely) did undergo the discipline I am referring to" > > > > However, what is a jarring note in all this Q & A session is that the word > > zodiac has not been defined at all! As such, we have to get the basic > > records first and only then we can proceed further. The definition of > > "Zodiac" as per Oxford English Dictionary is, "An imaginary belt in the > > heavens, about 18° wide, through which the ecliptic passes centrally and > > which forms the background of the motions of the sun, moon and planets". > > And the definition of "Ecliptic" as per the same dictionary is, "The > > apparent path of the sun's annual motion among the stars". And the meaning > > of the word "apparent" as per the same dictionary is, "That maybe seen; > > distinguished from true or from mean". And as a student of primary school > > geography knows, "the sun is stationary" and only appears to move (apparent > > motion!)! > > > > All this lengthy Q & A session therefore boils down to the simple fact that > > much ado has been made about something that is an "imaginary belt through > > which passes an Apparent path of the fictitious movement of stationary sun". > > > > Then a lot of "Tapasya" and "yoga" has been discussed/involved regarding the > > same "imaginary belt" also known as "circle of animals" having twelve equal > > "animals" like Bull and Goat (or is it a Crocodile!) and Lion and so on! And > > then further hair-splitting has been done about whether that "imaginary > > circle of animals" is a moving one (so called sayana!) or an immovable one > > (so called nirayana!). > > > > Tapasyas sometimes do result in hallucinations when some tapasvis see a > > "Scorpio" equal to a "Lion" and so on. Such hallucinations may in fact be > > essential for delineating intangible things like the future of nations or > > even of individual human beings! Sometimes such hallucinations are called > > intuition or even trances (samadhis) for predictive purposes! But so far as > > the real Vedic calendar is concerned, I think it should be left alone, > > without being burdened by "Scorpions" and "Goats" and "Twins" etc. etc. – > > all of which are supposed to be of equal size! > > > > In fact, the real Vedic calendar never bothered about such "animals" or "the > > circle of animals" and it was based on Madhu, Madhava etc. months, which got > > subsumed in/combined with phenomena like Vasanta Sampat, Uttarayana and so > > on. > > > > Madhu, the first day of Vasanta Ritu, means honey. So why burden it with > > "Fishes". Similarly, "Tapah" the first day of Shisira Ritu means "penance". > > That is also the day of Uttarayana. Why thrust a "Goat" or a "Crocodile" on > > it? > > > > This will be clear from npj3.doc in the files section. > > > > As per that document, since the real Vedic calendar had been going on from > > the time of the Rig-Veda till the time of Acharya Sayana without any > > "Bulls" and "Rams", why burden that calendar with such unnecessary > > encumbrances now, all in the name of tapasya and yoga etc. etc.? Why not > > keep those "moving Bulls" or "stationary Goats" etc. tethered to predictive > > gimmicks alone! That is my humble request! > > > > With regards, > > > > A K Kaul > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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