Guest guest Posted July 11, 2009 Report Share Posted July 11, 2009 Shri Goptal Goelji, Namaskar! < It is unfortunate that a simple fact is not clear to you that tropical signs were named on the basis of PRE -EXISTING SIDEREAL SIGNS> My dear Goel Sahib! The fact is that that is what all the astronomers say, but only in a different manner! There are no Mesha etc. twelve equal divisions known as astrological signs! They are actually Aries etc. constellations astronomically! Greek astrologers named their astrological signs on the basis of those very constellations! It was the same astronomy, including the same Rashis, that was/were imported into India via Maya the mlechha’s Surya Sidhanta! According to that work, Makar Sankranti was nothing but another name of Winter Solstice at the beginning of Treta-Yuga, when that “divine work” was revealed to him by Surya Bhagvan! And Makar Sankranti will be the name of Uttarayana Day as per that very work till the Doomsday! Why don’t you read these sidhantas yourself to have a clear picture for your own consumption? If you are extremely busy with your phalita work, pl. at least go through BVB6., 1999b and rashi5 documents. They will give you all the information with all the relevant references from all the sidhantas and Puranas etc. etc. that there were no so called nirayana rashis as no sidhanta-kara had any idea about precession till about fifteenth century AD. < You are un-necessarily trying to name the day of WINTER SOLSTICE as Tropical Makar sankranti> I am not doing anything like that--- I am giving neither the name of Tropical Makar Sankranti nor nirayana Makar Sankranti to Winter Solstice! All I am doing is quoting the Puranas and the sidhantas that say that Makar Sankranti is the shortest day of the year! It is jyotishis like you who call such Makar Sankrantis as Tropical, as coincide with the Winter Solstice! Since there are no Rashis in the Vedas, there is no question of their being Sayana or nirayana! <. In Vadic era they had given importance to day of occurrence of winter solstice but it was not called as day of Makar sankranti > Absolutely right, since there are no Mesha etc. rashis in the Vedas, how could the Vedic Seers call the Uttarayana Day as Makar Sankranti etc.? < Makar sankranti, which was always linked with sidereal zodiac based on the division of 27nakshatras',> That is a post Grahalaghava development! Till the time of Alberuni’s visit to India in eleventh century AD and much later, even Ashvini, Bharni etc., nakshatras were linked to so called Sayana Mesha etc. Rashis, and not the so called nirayana rashis! It was so because the Surya Sidhanta had done so, i.e. linked the nakshatras to sayana rashis, and no jyotishi had either the courage or the common sense or the knowledge to say anything against Maya the mlechha! As such, you are talking of imaginary sidereal and tropical zodiacs with imaginary equal 12 or 27 divisions, which do not exist either astronomically or as per our shastras! How long will you go on fantasizing? Best regards, A K Kaul Re: [ind. & West. Astrology] Fwd: Americanised(Westernised) Ramayana Dear Kaul ji , It is unfortunate that a simple fact is not clear to you that tropical signs were named on the basis of PRE -EXISTING SIDEREAL SIGNS. You are un-necessarily trying to name the day of WINTER SOLSTICE as Tropical Makar sankranti . In Vadic era they had given importance to day of occurrence of winter solstice but it was not called as day of Makar sankranti , which was always linked with sidereal zodiac based on the division of 27nakshatras', Best regards, G.K.GOEL Ph: 09350311433 Add: L-409, SARITA VIHAR NEW DELHI-110 076 INDIA Avtar Krishen Kaul <jyotirved Indian_Astrology_Group_Daily_Digest Friday, 10 July, 2009 1:27:43 PM Re: [ind. & West. Astrology] Fwd: Americanised(Westernised) Ramayana Shri Gopal Goel ji, Namaskar! I am really glad to hear from an astrologer of repute like you that, " A civil and seasonal calender has to be based on tropical co-ordinates. This was recognised since Vadic era. " Even if we agree, without any rhyme or reasons to your next statement that, " The predictive astrology needed different co-ordinates and tools " , it means that calendar making and predictive gimmicks are entirely two different things. As such, would you kindly make an appeal to all the " Vedic " , " non-Vedic " and even " Anti-Vedic " astrologers not to meddle with calendar making and just concentrate on predictive gimmicks! I hope, against hope, that you will definitely make such an appeal, and I further hope, again against hope, that predictive astrologers will leave calendar making to real Vedic scholars and scientists instead of poking their " not-too-clean " noses into such affairs. In other words, they, I mean the jyotishis, including you, will celebrate Makar Sankranti on the shortest day of the year and Mesha Sankranti on the Venal Exuinox day and so on, whatever or whchever Rashichakra they, including you, use for their predictive gimmicks. With regrads, A K Kaul Indian_Astrology_ Group_Daily_ Digest@grou ps.com, Gopal Goel <gkgoel1937@ ...> wrote: > > Dear Pandey ji, > YOU have posted nice dialogue, it is good to read at. > The calender making and its reform are serious matters > and decided on scientific basis. > A civil and seasonal calender has to be based on tropical > co-ordinates. This was recognised since Vadic era. > The predictive astrology needed different co-ordinates and tools: > !. Since ancient days , the sages observed, recognised and evolved various stars > and constellations .They had also recorded the effects of transit of planets in constellations. > These are given in vast independent literature still available , which is called Mahurta shastra. > These references are also extensively quoted in Vedas' , Puranas' etc. > 2.. After Mahabharata era , Panchag was come into existence and in extensive use .( In those days > it was not possible to pin-point the location of V.E.Point on ecliptic.) > Panchang has five limbs: > > a. Vara -week days- In Indian Astrology , week day starts from Sun rise.Sun rise was calculated > with help of charantra and velantra. > Knowledge of vara prolongs life as it gives life and energy. > b. Tithi -As all of us know it is angular difference in the arc of Moon and Sun > Knowledge of tithi brings prosperity as it strengthen marital relationship , passion and love life. > c. KARAN - Karan represent half of the TITHI.It has a big importance as it controls the Karma. > Knowledge of karna leads to success in all endeavours as it indicates activity,work in society,and achievements, > d. Nakshatra - As Moon takes a round of the earth in about 27.32 days , they have divided > Zodiac in 27 equal parts each of 13deg 20 min. They had also visualised(or introduced ) > 28th Nakshatra , but without disturbing basic division of 27 Nakshatras-28th the ancient nakshatra > carved out of last pada of Uttarasadha and 1st portion of 53'20 " of Sarvan.Taittirya Samhita 4.4.10 gives the names of Naksharas . We are using the same names without any deviation. > Similarly , Richika 3.11.1 of Taittrya Brahman contains all the names like Sun .Moon, Nakshatra, > Samvatsar, Ritu ,Masa,Arthmasa, Ahoratri, Purnamasi ,Astami , Amavasya etc.It also says that division of Nakshatra is based on Moon. > Nakshatra was used as one limb of Panchang since time immemorial.Varaha Mihiri in Surya siddhanta > also indicates the commencing point of each Nakshatra from its yogatara, > Yogatara of nakshatra Chitra i.e star chitra is exactly in the middle of this nakshatra and as such > 1st point of sidereal zodiac is commences opposite to star Chitra.This fact was also recognised by Calender Committee , Most of Panchang makers agree with this. > Knowledge of nakshatra removes sins as it is indicator of disease, death . bodily ailments. > e, YOGA - This is the sum of the longitudes of Sun and Moon (Atma + Manha = Jeevha) ,They are also > 27 in number and 1st Yoga- Visvakumbha commences from star Pushya.This is the reason that > there is a Puranic lore that Jupiter (Jeeva) was born in Pushya. > Knowledge of yoga gives immunity from diseases as it is indicator of general relationships, the company one keeps , friendship circle. > Next step was to develop branch known as Jataka .In this we require a birth chart and its analysis. > BPHS PROVIDES US UNIQUE TECHNIQUES TO ANALYSE A BIRTH NATIVITIES . It is unfortunate > that some savants (though in poor minority ) are not able to see its merits. They are more interested in > chronological order than the contents. Such persons wish to reform others without first reforming themselves. > No person can appreciate the depth of sidereal astrology without understanding Mahurta shastra. > Vikram Samvats-sar calender is totally based on astronomical norms and completely suitable > and meets the requirements of our ancient astrology which is developed in last 5000 years. > The present calender is in continuous use for over 2000 years. > No one calender can meet all the requirement of society,as such the present panchangs are amalgamation > of many calenders meets the requirement of all division of society.As an example you pick up Martand Panchang, > it gives all necessary information on sidereal , tropical as well as other calender. one can pick up information according to its need. > Regards, > > > > > G.K.GOEL > Ph: 09350311433 > Add: L-409, SARITA VIHAR > NEW DELHI-110 076 > INDIA > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > Prashant Pandey <praspandey@ ...> > indian_astrology_ group_daily_ digest@grou ps.com > Tuesday, 7 July, 2009 10:02:48 PM > [ind. & West. Astrology] Fwd: Americanised( Westernised) Ramayana > > > > > > HinduCalendar, " ramkileela " <ramkileela@ ...> wrote: > > Americanised Ramayan > > A young second generation Indian in the US was asked by his mother to > explain the significance of " Diwali " to his younger brother, this is > how he went about it... > > " So, like this dude had, like, a big cool kingdom and people liked > him. But, like, his step-mom, or something, was kind of a bitch, and > she forced her husband to, like, send this cool-dude, he was Ram, to > some national forest or something... Since he was going, for like, > something like more than 10 years or so... he decided to get his wife > and his bro along... you know...so that they could all chill out > together.. But Dude, the forest was reeeeal scary shit... really > man...they had monkeys and devil s and shit like that. But this dude, > Ram, kicked with darts and bows and arrows... so it was fine. > > But then some bad gangsta boys, some jerk called Ravan, picks up his > babe (Sita) and lures her away to his hood. And boy, was our man, and > also his bro, Laxman, pissed... all the gods were with him... So > anyways, you don't mess with gods. So, Ram, and his bro get an army of > monkeys... Dude, don't ask me how they trained the damn monkeys... > just go along with me, ok... > > So, Ram, Lax and their monkeys whip this gangsta's ass in his own > hood... Anyways, by this time, their time's up in the forest... and > anyways.... it gets kinda boring, you know... no TV or malls or shit > like that. So,they decided to hitch a ride back home... and when the > people realize that our dude, his bro and the wife are back home... > they thought, well, you know, at least they deserve something nice... > and they didn't have any bars or clubs in those days... so they > couldn't take them out for a drink, so they, like, decided to smoke > and shit... and since they also had some lamps, they lit the lamps > also....so it was pretty cooool... you know with all those > fireworks... .. Really, they even had some local band play along with > the fireworks... and you know, what, dude, that was the very first, no > kidding.., thatwas the very first music-synchronized fireworks... you > know, like the 4th of July stuff, but just, more cooler and stuff, you > know. And, so dude, > that was how, like, this festival started. " > > The mother fainted.. > > --- End forwarded message --- > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2009 Report Share Posted July 13, 2009 Shri Paul Kekai Manansala ji, Namaskar! Thank you for your response. You have said, <So what. That's only the name given for Uttarayana based on its original position at the start of the yuga.? Your statement is more confusing than informative! What is the meaning of " original position of Uttarayana at the start of the Yuga " ? Which Yuga are you talking about since Maya the mlechha claims that the Surya Sidhanta was revealed to him at the beginning of the present Treta-Yuga i.e. hundreds of thousands of years back! Do you mean to say that there was a Makar Sankranti around hundreds of thousands of years ----more than 1,296,000 years back, to be precise--- which coincided with the Uttarayana (Winter Solstice) and will continue to do so for millions of years in future---for that is what the Surya Sidhanta wants us to believe? <The Surya Siddhanta clearly uses sidereal astronomy.> What do you mean by sidereal astronomy? The problem is that people enter into discussions about a work without having read it themselves! The SS cries from every corner that Makar Sankrnati is another name of Uttarayana and Mesha Sankranti another name of Vishuva and Karkata Sankranti another name of Dakshinayana and Tula Sankranti another name of Autumn Equinox! If that is " sidereal astronomy " according to you, then what is the need of hundreds of thousands of Ayanamshas then? Perhaps you are confused because the Surya Sidhanta clubs Ashvini nakshatra with the Mesha Rashi! But that is a proof of the fact that the Surya Sidhanta is wrong in every respect! If the Mesha Sankranti is another name of Vishuva, at the beginning of the current Treta-Yuga hundreds of thousands of years back, and if it clubs Ashvini nakshatra with the same Mesha Rashi-cum-Vernal Equinox, that itself proves that it is absolutely a useless work! <Also, there is no evidence whatsoever that the Greeks intended to use tropical astrology!> They would have used so called tropical astrology only if they had any idea about the difference between the so called tropical and so called sidereal astrology! Actually Greek astrologers did not want to delink Aries etc. twelve equal astrological divisions from the unequal constellations of those very names and that is how the mess of so called tropical and so called sidereal continued! It is exactly like the fact that in spite of the Puranas and the sidhantas talking of a so called sayana rashichakra, Hindu astrologers do not want to celebrate Uttarayana-cum-Makar-Sankranti but only Lahiri Makar Sankranti, since they do not want to lose their clients! And they are supported in all such irreligious activities by " His Holiness of Art of one thing or the other " as well. That is what happened with Greek astrology to start with! It was constellations (and not astrological signs) around which Greek predictive gimmicks revolved, since from about second century BCE to about first century AD, by a sheer coincidence the equinoxes and solstices almost coincided with Capricornus/Crab and Ram/Scales constellations but with the passage of time, got delinked from them, with the result that the First Point of Aries became a misnomer around second century AD itself! But Greek astrologers did not want to delink the names of Aries etc. signs from the constellations, because, it had been declared by them that it was Stars, through the constellations, that were affecting the lives of people and nations! And that is how the things are going on even today! Till a few centuries back, Hindu astronomers in India also had no idea about precession! Pathani Samanta, an Indian astronomer of Orissa of the early twentieth century, who has compiled Sidhanta Shiromani, insisted that it was not the earth and the planets that moved round the sun but it was the other way round! Even as late as twentieth century, he tried to vindicate the accuracy of the longitudes of the Surya Sidhanta, because that was a divine work to him! And Hindu astrologers are delirious that as late as twentieth century, some Hindu astronomer still believed in the Surya Sidhanta being the most accurate work! <There is no such thing as a tropical zodiac in reality. The zodiac is the ecliptic i.e. the apparent sidereal path of the Sun. Therefore, by definition, the zodiac is sidereal.> You are contradicting yourself in your own words! You say " The zodiac is the ecliptic " but the definition of the ecliptic you give is " the apparent sidereal path of the sun " . Can you quote any astronomical work which supports your statement that the ecliptic is a " sidereal path " of the sun? < " Tropical zodiac " is a misnomer.> So is a sidereal zodiac! The definition of the zodiac, as per Encyclopedia Britannica 2001 is: “in astronomy and astrology, a belt around the heavens extending 9 on either side of the ecliptic, the plane of the earth's orbit and of the sun's apparent annual path. The orbits of the moon and of the principal planets (except Pluto) also lie entirely within the zodiac. The 12 astrological signs of the zodiac are each considered to occupy 1/12 (or 30) of its great circle. These signs no longer correspond to the astronomical constellations in which the sun actually appears. The constellations are irregular in size and shape, and the sun regularly passes through one constellation (Ophiuchus) that is not considered a member of the zodiac.” Two things are clear from this definition: 1) The sun does not actually move but it appears to move! 2)The sun does not actually pass through any constellation, but they are only in the background! So the sun does not pass through “the sidereal zodiac” just as it does not pass through the “Tropical zodiac”. On the other hand, it is a fact that the sun---actually the earth---- “is stationary---even if for a nano-second” around Solstices and Equinoxes when it has either the maximum or zero declinations. Those are real---and not apparent---phenomena. The Vedic calendar revolved around those phenomena and not around imaginary constellations of a still more imaginary belt known as zodiac! Zodiac has actually nothing to do with these phenomena. They are geographical facts and cannot be wished away! They are phenomena of a seasonal year, which is known as Tropical year. Thus it is actually a year or a month---and not the zodiac----that can be defined as Tropical or sidereal! Zodiac is an imaginary belt and it is neither Tropical nor sidereal, unless your imagination wants to make it so! And if you still want to go by a so called sidereal zodiac, the best way to do so is to realign your Aries, Taurus etc. twelve astrological signs with Aries, Taurus etc. constellations actually and start celebrating a constellational Makar Sankranti neither on December 21 nor on January 14 but on January 21, since that is the day when the sun “enters” that constellations these days! Shubhasya sheegram! The earlier you do it the better! One thing, however, has to be kept in mind that even the Aries etc. constellation figures like Ram and Bull etc. are imaginary and not the real Rams and Bulls! The following summary must, therefore, take the cake: “Correct predictions can only be made through imaginary ownership by inanimate wandering bodies like Mars, Mercury etc. of unequal imaginary animals of an imaginary belt known as zodiac”. With regards, A K Kaul --- In akandabaratam , " Paul Kekai Manansala " <p.manansala wrote: > > --- In akandabaratam , " jyotirved " <jyotirved@> wrote: > > > > Shri Goptal Goelji, > > > > Namaskar! > > > > < It is unfortunate that a simple fact is not clear to you that tropical > > signs were named on the basis of PRE -EXISTING SIDEREAL SIGNS> > > > > > > > > My dear Goel Sahib! The fact is that that is what all the astronomers say, > > but only in a different manner! There are no Mesha etc. twelve equal > > divisions known as astrological signs! They are actually Aries etc. > > constellations astronomically! Greek astrologers named their astrological > > signs on the basis of those very constellations! It was the same astronomy, > > including the same Rashis, that was/were imported into India via Maya the > > mlechha's Surya Sidhanta! According to that work, Makar Sankranti was > > nothing but another name of Winter Solstice at the beginning of Treta-Yuga, > > when that " divine work " was revealed to him by Surya Bhagvan! And Makar > > Sankranti will be the name of Uttarayana Day as per that very work till the > > Doomsday! > > So what. That's only the name given for Uttarayana based on its original position at the start of the yuga. > > The Surya Siddhanta clearly uses sidereal astronomy. > > Also, there is no evidence whatsoever that the Greeks intended to use tropical astrology! > > Ptolemy thought that the sidereal and tropical years were the same! He believed that the difference found by Hipparchus was a temporary aberration. > > There is no such thing as a tropical zodiac in reality. The zodiac is the ecliptic i.e. the apparent sidereal path of the Sun. Therefore, by definition, the zodiac is sidereal. > > " Tropical zodiac " is a misnomer. > > Regards, > Paul Kekai Manansala > Quests of the Dragon and Bird Clan > http://sambali.blogspot.com/ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2009 Report Share Posted July 13, 2009 Dear Mr. Kaul, I have been following some of your discussion with interest.When you said, "The Vedic calendar is neither so called Tropical nor so called Sidereal" what did you mean? The nakshatras are found along the ecliptic/zodiac, aren't they? With respect, I would like to ask, what exactly is your point in this discussion as it is becoming somewhat difficult to follow. If you are saying that the Vedic calendar is not zodiacal, then on what celestial coordinate system do you belive it is based...galactic, equatorial, horizontal or ???Are you also arguing that the BPHS is 5000 years old but that it has been massively corrupted in the last 1500 years? If so, is there a copy of the BPHS that is not corrupted and how does one get a copy?Thanks for your clarification, JS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.