Guest guest Posted August 15, 2009 Report Share Posted August 15, 2009 Indian_Astrology_Group_Daily_Digest , AKKaul@@ wrote: Dear Astro-Vedas, Namastey! <Had Greeks talked of Uttarayana and Dakhshiayana in their early works of astrology and astronomy?? , If not then how they were making charts for difft difft location(You may consider very special case just to get my exact query :- i am talking of locations at difft difft declination for same right ascension) on the same day.I think you would be getting my point what i want to ask, duration of all rashis(You may consider Tropical or Sidereal) can not be equal at difft difft locations(please consider the location about which i have written just in above lines). So in their works there should be mention of Dakhshiayana and Uttraayana.> Dakshinayana means Summer Solstice-cum-the ingress of the sun into Cancer as per the Greeks. Uttarayana means Winter Solstice-cum-the ingress of the sun into Capricorn. It was Greeks who divided the ecliptic into twelve equal divisions, whereas in India, ecliptic had no role to play till the advent of the Surya Sidhanta by Maya the mlechha for calendar formation! This is evident from the Vedanga Jyotisha, which has taken the twelve divisions of time by the names of different months viz. Madhu, Madhava etc. The earliest " star catalaogue " that we have today is that of Hipparchus of Nicea! It is of about second century BCE. He seems to have prepared his star catalogue after comparing their positions with some earlier data that was available to him then. (I just forget the name of that work!) WE do not have any such records in India. Regarding preparing of (birth)charts, Greek astronomy was hardly any better than that of the Surya Sidhanta! After all, we must not forget that the SS was the " cream of Greek astronomy " for export to India, on the shoulders of the Surya Bhagwan! The Surya Sidhanta gives the mothodlogy of finding lagnas for differet locations. <In VEDAS and BRAHMNAS, there is talk of NKS, Had those NKS,any relation with Moon's movement??> Yes, there is information available that the Vedas do talk of nakshatras vis-a-vis lunar movements. The Vedanga Jyotisha has specificially given the methodology of finding the lunar sojourn in various nakshatras, though the methodology is very rough, and on the basis of mean lunar motion. It has also given the method of calculating the position of the sun in various nakshatras---again mean and rough. We do not, however, find any means of finding the nakshatra position---not to speak of Rashi position----of other bodies/planets, for the simple reason that we do not find any mention of them till the time of the Surya Sidhanta by Maya the mlechha in the Pancha-Sidhantika! There is a saying in Sanskrit, " vyasoch-chhishtam idam sarvam " ie. all the shastras are regurgitaions of Vyasa. We may as well say, " mlechhoch-chishtam idam jyotisham " i.e. all the jyotisha is the regurgitation of Greeks---Brihat Parashara being the most glaring example, by dint of Kemadruma and Sunapaha etc. yogas! With regards, A K Kaul Indian_Astrology_Group_Daily_Digest , Astro.Vedas@@ wrote: > > Dear Shri Kaulji, > > I have some questions:- > > 1) Had Greeks talked of Uttarayana and Dakhshiayana in their early works of astrology and astronomy?? , If not then how they were making charts for difft difft location(You may consider very special case just to get my exact query :- i am talking of locations at difft difft declination for same right ascension) on the same day.I think you would be getting my point what i want to ask, duration of all rashis(You may consider Tropical or Sidereal) can not be equal at difft difft locations(please consider the location about which i have written just in above lines). So in their works there should be mention of Dakhshiayana and Uttraayana. > > 2) In VEDAS and BRAHMNAS, there is talk of NKS, Had those NKS,any relation with Moon's movement?? Please dont consider Purans to answer my query as those scriptures are not at same level as of VEDAS and BRAHMNAS as in VEDAS there was talk of only seasons but in PURANS they have used Tropical Rashis, so those scriptures are adulterated with some other cultures views instead of only being of Hindu culture. > > Thanks in advance! > > Astro.Vedas > Indian_Astrology_Group_Daily_Digest , AKKaul@@ wrote: > > > > hinducivilization , " Avtar Krishen Kaul " <jyotirved@> wrote: > > > > hinducivilization , " Avtar Krishen Kaul " <jyotirved@> wrote: > > > > Dear hinduvision2020 (why not 3030?) > > Namastey! > > <Tantra is purely non aryan tradition. As and when it became more powerful and a threat to brahmin domination, some brahmins effected an eclectic compromise.> > > Acharya Abhinavagupta's Tantraloka is a well recognized work of Tantra. It was propagaed in Kashmir in around 10th century AD. Do you mean to say that Kashmiri Pandits are of non-Aryan tradition and that is why they embraced it? > > I wish you had read at least the stotras of Acharya Abhinavagupta. You would have been hynotized by their force of prayer and argument to none other than Shiva, a Vedic God! > > I suggest you go through Yogavasishtha Maharamayana, without worrying whether it is a work of sixth millenium BCE or sixth century AD. You will find highly interesting stories about Tantra (also) in it especially the one about Kakabushundi. > > Half knowledge is a danegerous thing, but to declare something as a non-aryan tradition without having any idea about that topic even in the least is more dangerous than danger itself! > > Or is that you are basically nothing but a " Vedic astrologer " since the tantra shastras like Tantraloka do not talk of any Makara Sankranti except the Winter Solstice---the Shortest day of the year, and Dakshinayana i.e. Summer Solstice as Karkata Sankranti, the longest day of the year, and Mesha Sankranti just another name of Vishuva--when the day is equal to night and so on, since that is an anathem to " Vedic astrologers " as for them " Vedic Rashichakra " (sic!) is nothing but " sideral " --whatever that may mean! (Pl. see BVB6.pdf in files section). > > Dhanyavad > > A K Kaul > > > > hinducivilization , " hinduvision2020 " <hinduboy2009@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > >>The Vedic, Puranic and the Tantric traditions were/are officiated by > > > brahmins..... It is a reality. > > > > > > Myth, myth and more myth. Tantra is purely non aryan tradition. As and when it became more powerful and a threat to brahmin domination, some brahmins effected an eclectic compromise. But it came much later. Nimbarka was not even aware of advancements in Shakta theology, but Madhva, the sectarian pandit was! > > > > > > Popular Hinduism is dictated with non aryan idiom. It is the most absurd brahmanical pretension to even claim to know what these subaltern Hindus practice, perceive and believe, without actually being insiders to their tradition. At times, it is difficult to perceive the brahmanical element except in obvious sanskritized traditions > > > > > > Also, the famed tolerance and acceptability of Hinduism used to operate more at this non-elite level [with exceptions], unlike today where is has become ubiquitous. Otherwise, as Kosambi said with some exaggeration, the brahmin shaivites and vaishnavites were breaking each other's heads. > > > > > > >>The teaching of all secular and religious subjects from time immemorial till the middle part of 19 th century were exclusively done by the brahmins. > > > > > > -> Are you a member of the same brahmin fan club, which transformed Aryabhata, the non Brahmin into Aryabhatta, the Brahmin! Wherever Brahmanism had a free reign and was not in competition with Buddhism, it sucked the lifeblood out of scientific institutions. It reduced the ritual status of doctors, engineers and craftsmen. The decline in Indian medical sciences should thus be blamed on Brahmanism's pollution ridden taboos and not on Buddhistic ahimsa. [a popular 19th century canard which was utilized quite disappointingly even by Vivekananda) Brahmanical taboos disallowed Hindus from crossing the seas and mixing with mlecchas, all with disastrous results > > > > > > => Let me repeat what I said in another post; in the past two centuries, the most original Hindu thinkers have all been non Brahmins or those who had rid themselves of all brahmanical conceit and pride > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hinducivilization , " J.venkatasubramanian " <apexpreci2000@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Is this a case of sour grapes ? Even if all the 799 members hide under > > > > pseudonyms, why should the speaker of truth also do it ? > > > > > > > > To me, it all looks like an agenda. One key objective of yours seem to > > > > be to establish that the rest of Hindu population are equally > > > > responsible for the wisdom literature of our tradition. In this process, > > > > you had decided to take potshots at brahmins. An old trick. > > > > > > > > Brahmins ,as a flag bearers of Vedic and then Bhaktiyist schools, are a > > > > respected institution like Hinduism itself. They are like mature trees > > > > with ripe fruits and it is but natural that they get hit by stones but > > > > still they give fruits. But, there is a proviso. Only till the tree is > > > > alive. What you are trying to do is to destroy these institutions. > > > > > > > > The Vedic, Puranic and the Tantric traditions were/are officiated by > > > > brahmins only and there is no boasting there. It is a reality. The > > > > teaching of all secular and religious subjects from time immemorial till > > > > the middle part of 19 th century were exclusively done by the brahmins. > > > > > > > > As with all old institutions, corruptions creeped into brahmin community > > > > as well as Hinduism. They cannot be separated even in this. I will tell > > > > you how. In the past couple of years. I was asking people of all hues > > > > (Hindus) what is their reaction to the attacks on hindus in many parts > > > > of India. None except the brahmins identified themselves with Hinduism. > > > > The non brahmins (most of them my friends) made no pretensions over it. > > > > > > > > I asked what would have happened if someone of their own caste were > > > > attacked. Boy, now I could see their reaction ! He said, we will > > > > mobilize our people, take to the street, write to newspapers and even > > > > physically assault the enemy - whoever they were, hindu or muslim. > > > > > > > > This is reality. That is why RSS cadre is swelling with brahmins. That > > > > is not a casteist agenda. They are the ones who first are moved by the > > > > word 'Hindu'. > > > > > > > > Yes, an occasional brahmin drank wine, went to the brothel, wrote hymns > > > > on the Sultan, and cheated money of others. But that still makes no > > > > difference. Our Puranas also mention such brahmins. > > > > > > > > I do not know who you are. Also I am not a hater of other communities. > > > > But here goes the fact. It is the so called pampered political coterie > > > > of the 'OBC's who are responsible for some of the worst casteist > > > > problems facing the country. They are solely responsible for theharijans > > > > and girijans still treated in the most unhuman ways. Our villages are > > > > living example of this where a harijan cannot drink water from the > > > > farmer but can freely occupy the empty homes of the fleeing brahmin ! > > > > > > > > I am disgusted with the ways of the OBC friendly set ups for their > > > > attacks on both ends of the community for their oneupmanship. > > > > > > > > You are one of them. I am not surprised at all. This is your agenda. > > > > > > > > Venkat > > > > > > > > hinducivilization , " hinduvision2020 " > > > > <hinduboy2009@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I could have used a real sounding name and it would not have caught > > > > anyone's attention unlike this obvious fake ID. I dont think it is > > > > remotely possible for you to be aware of the real identities, forget > > > > ideologies of the 800 odd members of this community despite the > > > > restricted and moderated entry. > > > > > > > > > > Nevertheless, i won't be posting anymore on this forum except one or > > > > two closing posts and clarifications. That should satisfy all > > > > --- End forwarded message --- > > > --- End forwarded message --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 16, 2009 Report Share Posted August 16, 2009 Indian_Astrology_Group_Daily_Digest , AKKaul@@ wrote: Shri Hari Malla ji, Namastey! <2.The full moons and the nakshyatras being connected,now a days not roughly but in a well defined manner,to the very padas of the nakshytras as they are also bound with the rashis, we should shift the nakshyatras also, when we do calendar reform.> Mesha etc. rashis are a direct import from overseas countries, and their being linked to Ashvini, Bharni etc. nakshatras by Maya the mlechha through his Surya Sidhanta was the " most unkindest cut " , for the entire Hindu community since he did so by keep8ing the gun on the shoulders of " Surya Bhagwan " . You must by now have become aware that the SS talks of nothing but a so called Sayana (Tropical) Rashischakra since as per the same, Makar Sankranti is another name of the start of six months of Uttarayana and so on. How could, therefore, the so called Sayana rashis be linked to nakshatras permanently? And these are tha fallacies which Surya Sidhanta Bhaktas like Shri Vinay Jha are either unaware about or deliberately ignorinig them! Since there are no Rashis in the Vedas or the VJ, YJ or even Atharva Jyotisham etc., you are wrong in presuming that nakshatras were linked to rashis in the past. Similarly, the names of lunar months as per the Full Moon in a particular nakshatra also is a post-Vedic development, as has been proved by S B Dikshit in his " Bharataiya Jyotisha Shastra " . As such, if you really want to streamline the Hindu calendar as per the shastras, you will have to forget Mesha etc. Rashis once for all and go by the Vedic solar months Madhu, Madhava etc. and link the lunar Chaitra etc. months to the same, instead of creating yet another ayanamsha! With regards, A K Kaul Indian_Astrology_Group_Daily_Digest , Harimalla@@ wrote: > > Dear shri Kaulji and Pandeyji, > I would like to add one or two points to what shri Kaulji has nicely put. > 1.Due to sun in capricorn and cancer being uttarayan and dakhinayan, we also have in geography these two lines drawn on the golobe of the earth as tropic of capricorn and tropic of cancer even today.Thus we must maintain the two names for the respective events even in future.Thus tropic of capricorn will always be uttrayan and tropic of cancer should always be dakhinayan. > 2.The full moons and the nakshyatras being connected,now a days not roughly but in a well defined manner,to the very padas of the nakshytras as they are also bound with the rashis, we should shift the nakshyatras also, when we do calendar reform. Thus we should maintain the same names for the lunar months too,along with the rashis after the calendar reform too for the above two reasons. > thank you, > sincerlyl yours, > Hari Malla > > Indian_Astrology_Group_Daily_Digest , AKKaul@@ wrote: > > > > Dear Astro-Vedas, > > Namastey! > > <Had Greeks talked of Uttarayana and Dakhshiayana in their early works of astrology and astronomy?? , If not then how they were making charts for difft difft location(You may consider very special case just to get my exact query :- i am talking of locations at difft difft declination for same right ascension) on the same day.I think you would be getting my point what i want to ask, duration of all rashis(You may consider Tropical or Sidereal) can not be equal at difft difft locations(please consider the location about which i have written just in above lines). So in their works there should be mention of Dakhshiayana and Uttraayana.> > > > > Dakshinayana means Summer Solstice-cum-the ingress of the sun into Cancer as per the Greeks. Uttarayana means Winter Solstice-cum-the ingress of the sun into Capricorn. > > It was Greeks who divided the ecliptic into twelve equal divisions, whereas in India, ecliptic had no role to play till the advent of the Surya Sidhanta by Maya the mlechha for calendar formation! This is evident from the Vedanga Jyotisha, which has taken the twelve divisions of time by the names of different months viz. Madhu, Madhava etc. > > The earliest " star catalaogue " that we have today is that of Hipparchus of Nicea! It is of about second century BCE. He seems to have prepared his star catalogue after comparing their positions with some earlier data that was available to him then. (I just forget the name of that work!) WE do not have any such records in India. > > Regarding preparing of (birth)charts, Greek astronomy was hardly any better than that of the Surya Sidhanta! After all, we must not forget that the SS was the " cream of Greek astronomy " for export to India, on the shoulders of the Surya Bhagwan! > > The Surya Sidhanta gives the mothodlogy of finding lagnas for differet locations. > > <In VEDAS and BRAHMNAS, there is talk of NKS, Had those NKS,any relation with Moon's movement??> > > Yes, there is information available that the Vedas do talk of nakshatras vis-a-vis lunar movements. The Vedanga Jyotisha has specificially given the methodology of finding the lunar sojourn in various nakshatras, though the methodology is very rough, and on the basis of mean lunar motion. It has also given the method of calculating the position of the sun in various nakshatras---again mean and rough. > > We do not, however, find any means of finding the nakshatra position---not to speak of Rashi position----of other bodies/planets, for the simple reason that we do not find any mention of them till the time of the Surya Sidhanta by Maya the mlechha in the Pancha-Sidhantika! > > There is a saying in Sanskrit, " vyasoch-chhishtam idam sarvam " ie. all the shastras are regurgitaions of Vyasa. We may as well say, " mlechhoch-chishtam idam jyotisham " i.e. all the jyotisha is the regurgitation of Greeks---Brihat Parashara being the most glaring example, by dint of Kemadruma and Sunapaha etc. yogas! > > With regards, > > A K Kaul > > > > Indian_Astrology_Group_Daily_Digest , Astro.Vedas@@ wrote: > > > > > > Dear Shri Kaulji, > > > > > > I have some questions:- > > > > > > 1) Had Greeks talked of Uttarayana and Dakhshiayana in their early works of astrology and astronomy?? , If not then how they were making charts for difft difft location(You may consider very special case just to get my exact query :- i am talking of locations at difft difft declination for same right ascension) on the same day.I think you would be getting my point what i want to ask, duration of all rashis(You may consider Tropical or Sidereal) can not be equal at difft difft locations(please consider the location about which i have written just in above lines). So in their works there should be mention of Dakhshiayana and Uttraayana. > > > > > > 2) In VEDAS and BRAHMNAS, there is talk of NKS, Had those NKS,any relation with Moon's movement?? Please dont consider Purans to answer my query as those scriptures are not at same level as of VEDAS and BRAHMNAS as in VEDAS there was talk of only seasons but in PURANS they have used Tropical Rashis, so those scriptures are adulterated with some other cultures views instead of only being of Hindu culture. > > > > > > Thanks in advance! > > > > > > Astro.Vedas > > > Indian_Astrology_Group_Daily_Digest , AKKaul@@ wrote: > > > > > > > > hinducivilization , " Avtar Krishen Kaul " <jyotirved@> wrote: > > > > > > > > hinducivilization , " Avtar Krishen Kaul " <jyotirved@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear hinduvision2020 (why not 3030?) > > > > Namastey! > > > > <Tantra is purely non aryan tradition. As and when it became more powerful and a threat to brahmin domination, some brahmins effected an eclectic compromise.> > > > > Acharya Abhinavagupta's Tantraloka is a well recognized work of Tantra. It was propagaed in Kashmir in around 10th century AD. Do you mean to say that Kashmiri Pandits are of non-Aryan tradition and that is why they embraced it? > > > > I wish you had read at least the stotras of Acharya Abhinavagupta. You would have been hynotized by their force of prayer and argument to none other than Shiva, a Vedic God! > > > > I suggest you go through Yogavasishtha Maharamayana, without worrying whether it is a work of sixth millenium BCE or sixth century AD. You will find highly interesting stories about Tantra (also) in it especially the one about Kakabushundi. > > > > Half knowledge is a danegerous thing, but to declare something as a non-aryan tradition without having any idea about that topic even in the least is more dangerous than danger itself! > > > > Or is that you are basically nothing but a " Vedic astrologer " since the tantra shastras like Tantraloka do not talk of any Makara Sankranti except the Winter Solstice---the Shortest day of the year, and Dakshinayana i.e. Summer Solstice as Karkata Sankranti, the longest day of the year, and Mesha Sankranti just another name of Vishuva--when the day is equal to night and so on, since that is an anathem to " Vedic astrologers " as for them " Vedic Rashichakra " (sic!) is nothing but " sideral " --whatever that may mean! (Pl. see BVB6.pdf in files section). > > > > Dhanyavad > > > > A K Kaul > > > > > > > > hinducivilization , " hinduvision2020 " <hinduboy2009@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>The Vedic, Puranic and the Tantric traditions were/are officiated by > > > > > brahmins..... It is a reality. > > > > > > > > > > Myth, myth and more myth. Tantra is purely non aryan tradition. As and when it became more powerful and a threat to brahmin domination, some brahmins effected an eclectic compromise. But it came much later. Nimbarka was not even aware of advancements in Shakta theology, but Madhva, the sectarian pandit was! > > > > > > > > > > Popular Hinduism is dictated with non aryan idiom. It is the most absurd brahmanical pretension to even claim to know what these subaltern Hindus practice, perceive and believe, without actually being insiders to their tradition. At times, it is difficult to perceive the brahmanical element except in obvious sanskritized traditions > > > > > > > > > > Also, the famed tolerance and acceptability of Hinduism used to operate more at this non-elite level [with exceptions], unlike today where is has become ubiquitous. Otherwise, as Kosambi said with some exaggeration, the brahmin shaivites and vaishnavites were breaking each other's heads. > > > > > > > > > > >>The teaching of all secular and religious subjects from time immemorial till the middle part of 19 th century were exclusively done by the brahmins. > > > > > > > > > > -> Are you a member of the same brahmin fan club, which transformed Aryabhata, the non Brahmin into Aryabhatta, the Brahmin! Wherever Brahmanism had a free reign and was not in competition with Buddhism, it sucked the lifeblood out of scientific institutions. It reduced the ritual status of doctors, engineers and craftsmen. The decline in Indian medical sciences should thus be blamed on Brahmanism's pollution ridden taboos and not on Buddhistic ahimsa. [a popular 19th century canard which was utilized quite disappointingly even by Vivekananda) Brahmanical taboos disallowed Hindus from crossing the seas and mixing with mlecchas, all with disastrous results > > > > > > > > > > => Let me repeat what I said in another post; in the past two centuries, the most original Hindu thinkers have all been non Brahmins or those who had rid themselves of all brahmanical conceit and pride > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hinducivilization , " J.venkatasubramanian " <apexpreci2000@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Is this a case of sour grapes ? Even if all the 799 members hide under > > > > > > pseudonyms, why should the speaker of truth also do it ? > > > > > > > > > > > > To me, it all looks like an agenda. One key objective of yours seem to > > > > > > be to establish that the rest of Hindu population are equally > > > > > > responsible for the wisdom literature of our tradition. In this process, > > > > > > you had decided to take potshots at brahmins. An old trick. > > > > > > > > > > > > Brahmins ,as a flag bearers of Vedic and then Bhaktiyist schools, are a > > > > > > respected institution like Hinduism itself. They are like mature trees > > > > > > with ripe fruits and it is but natural that they get hit by stones but > > > > > > still they give fruits. But, there is a proviso. Only till the tree is > > > > > > alive. What you are trying to do is to destroy these institutions. > > > > > > > > > > > > The Vedic, Puranic and the Tantric traditions were/are officiated by > > > > > > brahmins only and there is no boasting there. It is a reality. The > > > > > > teaching of all secular and religious subjects from time immemorial till > > > > > > the middle part of 19 th century were exclusively done by the brahmins. > > > > > > > > > > > > As with all old institutions, corruptions creeped into brahmin community > > > > > > as well as Hinduism. They cannot be separated even in this. I will tell > > > > > > you how. In the past couple of years. I was asking people of all hues > > > > > > (Hindus) what is their reaction to the attacks on hindus in many parts > > > > > > of India. None except the brahmins identified themselves with Hinduism. > > > > > > The non brahmins (most of them my friends) made no pretensions over it. > > > > > > > > > > > > I asked what would have happened if someone of their own caste were > > > > > > attacked. Boy, now I could see their reaction ! He said, we will > > > > > > mobilize our people, take to the street, write to newspapers and even > > > > > > physically assault the enemy - whoever they were, hindu or muslim. > > > > > > > > > > > > This is reality. That is why RSS cadre is swelling with brahmins. That > > > > > > is not a casteist agenda. They are the ones who first are moved by the > > > > > > word 'Hindu'. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, an occasional brahmin drank wine, went to the brothel, wrote hymns > > > > > > on the Sultan, and cheated money of others. But that still makes no > > > > > > difference. Our Puranas also mention such brahmins. > > > > > > > > > > > > I do not know who you are. Also I am not a hater of other communities. > > > > > > But here goes the fact. It is the so called pampered political coterie > > > > > > of the 'OBC's who are responsible for some of the worst casteist > > > > > > problems facing the country. They are solely responsible for theharijans > > > > > > and girijans still treated in the most unhuman ways. Our villages are > > > > > > living example of this where a harijan cannot drink water from the > > > > > > farmer but can freely occupy the empty homes of the fleeing brahmin ! > > > > > > > > > > > > I am disgusted with the ways of the OBC friendly set ups for their > > > > > > attacks on both ends of the community for their oneupmanship. > > > > > > > > > > > > You are one of them. I am not surprised at all. This is your agenda. > > > > > > > > > > > > Venkat > > > > > > > > > > > > hinducivilization , " hinduvision2020 " > > > > > > <hinduboy2009@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I could have used a real sounding name and it would not have caught > > > > > > anyone's attention unlike this obvious fake ID. I dont think it is > > > > > > remotely possible for you to be aware of the real identities, forget > > > > > > ideologies of the 800 odd members of this community despite the > > > > > > restricted and moderated entry. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nevertheless, i won't be posting anymore on this forum except one or > > > > > > two closing posts and clarifications. That should satisfy all > > > > > > > > --- End forwarded message --- > > > > > > > > > > --- End forwarded message --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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