Guest guest Posted November 1, 2009 Report Share Posted November 1, 2009 Indian_Astrology_Group_Daily_Digest , " Krishen " <jyotirved wrote: Dear Astroveda, Jai Shri Ram! It appears you are either not reading my posts fully or are just ignoring the relevant points deliberately! You have said, " Kaulji,article which u passed says VJ was written in 5th cent BCE, and nks came fm mesopotamia.SS came india in 1st cent BCE means after 400 yrs after VJ than why we shud listen u,even we didnt find clepsydera in indus,IF THERE IS ANYTHING OFF TRACK LET ME KNOW " Why have you overlooked my following point in the post " Re: Vedic Origins of Zodiac by Dr. David Frawley " and I quote " Regarding the date of the Vedanga Jyotisha, it was certainly a work of at least around 1400 BCE, whatever authors like David Pingree may say. This I am going to prove scientifically in a separate post. The Vedanga Jyotisha gives the duration of a solar year as 366! " I had made it clear in my PS to David Pingree link that it did not mean that I disagreed with him totally, nor did it mean that I agreed with him totally! If someone has said/written something, whether it is David Pingree or David Frawley, we must evaluate those statements and then only we can say as to whether we agree with them or not. I have pondered on the the Vedanga Jyotisha a great deal and taken into account all the points raised by David Pingree and others. Only after being convinced myself first that the VJ is not of 5th century BCE but much older than that---at least 14th century BCE---I had said categorically " Regarding the date of the Vedanga Jyotisha, it was certainly a work of around 14th century BCE ....... " as quoted above. Now that you have touched the topic of the date of VJ, I do not have any doubt that astronomically it is at least of 14th century BCE. This I have checked through Vasishtha.exe program in Hinducalendar forum, which gives the position of Junction stars from 10000 BC to 12030 AD in a jiffy. But it is some of our " friendly Vedic astrologers " who are claiming that there is a mantra of " mina rashi... " --fifth mantra in the Yajur Jyotisham--- trying to prove thereby that even the Vedanga Jyotisha talked about Mina etc. Rashis! They are doing so under the impression that by trying to prove that Rashis have been mentioned in the VJ, they will be able to estblish the antiquity of Rashichakra in the Indian ethos, including the VJ, but actually they are doing the maximum damage to that very VJ that way---i.e. they are making their own indigenous Vedanga Jyotisha of 14th century BCE a work of post introduction of Rashi-chakra in India---which means they are making it a work of not even fifth centry BCE, but maybe even first century BCE/AD, since, as everybody knows by now, prior to the Surya Sidhanta of Maya the melchha, there were no Mesha etc. rashis in India, much less in the VJ! So here also the ball is not in the court of David Pingree or your or my court! It is again in the court of " Vedic astrologers " . Jai Shri Ram A K Kaul Indian_Astrology_Group_Daily_Digest , " Astro " astro.vedas@ wrote: > > > Why we shud follow ur calendar which is nothing bt influenced by mesopotamians,why we shud listen to vedas instead of ss if both r of foreign origin,this i learnt fm ur passed article,tx to ur dirty abusive tactics > > > > Kaulji,article which u passed says VJ was written in 5th cent BCE, and nks came fm mesopotamia.SS came india in 1st cent BCE > > means after 400 yrs after VJ than why we shud listen u,even we didnt find clepsydera in indus,IF THERE IS ANYTHING OFF TRACK LET ME KNOW > > Indian_Astrology_Group_Daily_Digest , " Krishen " <jyotirved@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Astroveda, > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > <Kaulji if i can stand with you than tell me can i lie ??> > > > > > > Who told you that you were lying? At least not me! > > > > > > If you see my PS to the post suggesting the Pingree link, I have made it > > > clear that it is being sent just for information so that everybody can > > > form his/her opinion, and it does not mean that either I agree or > > > diasgree with what Pingree has said! > > > > > > There are certain points in Pingree's article with which one has to > > > agree and there are quite a few points in the same article with which I > > > can never agree. My main search right now is for the origin of Mesha, > > > Vrisha etc. rashis---wherefrom did they originate and how were they > > > transposed to other countries and when. > > > > > > I have a request, however. When you say somthing like " The Vedas say so > > > ... " , pl. do give the exact references so that I do not have to look for > > > a needle in a haystack. Pl. donot be like the gentleman keeps on > > > repeating that the Manu has asked the kings to appoint astrologers, but > > > whenever he is asked to quote the exact shloka from the Manusmriti, he > > > says that I must go through that shastra to find it out for myself! > > > Which means as if I have not gone through it already but found that the > > > Manu has actually castigagted " nakshatra-soochis " insead of advising a > > > king to employ them. I even quoted all those references in several > > > posts, but still that gentleman goes on harping on the same tune " the > > > Manu has advised a king to appoint astrologer " . Perhaps he is confusing > > > Varahamihira with the Manu! > > > > > > Then again he goes on repeating that Shani and Mangal are in the Vedas > > > but when asked to quote the exact referencesl, instead of quoting the > > > references he goes on repeating that very statement on the shoulders of > > > his " parokshya knowledge " . But when it comes to calculating horoscopes, > > > he has to take recourse to NASA data instead of his > > > " parokshya-knolwege " ! > > > > > > Let us take the case of Metonic cycle. about which you have said, " Do > > > you want the proof that Metonic cycle doesnt predate to Alexandrain > > > invasion?? Sun and Moon cycle was stolen from ancient Indo- Hitties(This > > > is also mentioned in VEDAS read it) " but you have not given any > > > references as to which Veda has talked about it. > > > Metonic cycle is a 19 year cycle afer which the new moon occurs on the > > > same day of the year as at the beginning of the cycle. Meton was an > > > Athenian astronomer of fifth cetury BC. He is supposed to have > > > " discovered " it. Athens is a city of Greece. It is possible that he > > > " pilfered " that theory from some other country, including India, but at > > > least it goes to prove that there was some sort of astronomy in Greece > > > in fifth century BCE, which predates Alexander's invasion in about 330 > > > BC. And if Meton used it for calculating lunar New Moons/Full Moons > > > more accurately, I have no complaints about him. But what I have > > > complaint against is that if it had originated in India, why did our > > > acharyas like Maya the " great " and Aryabhata and Brahmagupta and even > > > Bhaskara-II not discuss it in their treatises? > > > > > > There is also a Saros cycle for eclipses. It is an astronomical cycle > > > of about 6585 days and 8 hours. It is actually supposed to have been > > > confused with the Babylonian cycle of 3600 years----of which it is a > > > misnomer. There is every possibility that that cycle was known in India > > > either to start with or even simultaneously with other countries. But > > > why don't we find any references to the same at least in the later > > > sidhantas if not in the Vedanga Jyotisha? > > > > > > Who is responsible for that? At least not Meton or even Greece or > > > Babylonia for that matter! You are saying Metonic cycle is in the > > > Vedas! It may be, but why don't you give the exact reference where you > > > find it. > > > > > > You havesaid, " there is loop hole inMax Muller, Romila, Pingree and > > > Witzel's theory " . > > > > > > Regarding Max Muller, Romilla Thapar and even Pingree etc., we must not > > > forget that the are all " videshis " or semi-videshis! They do not have > > > any cultural attachmentaffinity to the Vedic culture which you and I > > > have. Some > --- End forwarded message --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 1, 2009 Report Share Posted November 1, 2009 Indian_Astrology_Group_Daily_Digest , " Krishen " <jyotirved wrote: Dear Astroveda, Jai Shri Ram! <Kaulji if i can stand with you than tell me can i lie ??> Who told you that you were lying? At least not me! If you see my PS to the post suggesting the Pingree link, I have made it clear that it is being sent just for information so that everybody can form his/her opinion, and it does not mean that either I agree or diasgree with what Pingree has said! There are certain points in Pingree's article with which one has to agree and there are quite a few points in the same article with which I can never agree. My main search right now is for the origin of Mesha, Vrisha etc. rashis---wherefrom did they originate and how were they transposed to other countries and when. I have a request, however. When you say somthing like " The Vedas say so .... " , pl. do give the exact references so that I do not have to look for a needle in a haystack. Pl. donot be like the gentleman who keeps on repeating that the Manu has asked the kings to appoint astrologers, but whenever he is asked to quote the exact shloka from the Manusmriti, he says that I must go through that shastra to find it out for myself! Which means as if I have not gone through it already but found that the Manu has actually castigagted " nakshatra-soochis " insead of advising a king to employ them. I even quoted all those references in several posts, but still that gentleman goes on harping on the same tune " the Manu has advised a king to appoint astrologer " . Perhaps he is confusing Varahamihira with the Manu! Then again he goes on repeating that Shani and Mangal are in the Vedas but when asked to quote the exact referencesl, instead of quoting the references he goes on repeating that very statement on the shoulders of his " parokshya knowledge " . But when it comes to calculating horoscopes, he has to take recourse to NASA data instead of his " parokshya-knolwege " ! Let us take the case of Metonic cycle. about which you have said, " Do you want the proof that Metonic cycle doesnt predate to Alexandrain invasion?? Sun and Moon cycle was stolen from ancient Indo- Hitties(This is also mentioned in VEDAS read it) " but you have not given any references as to which Veda has talked about it. Metonic cycle is a 19 year cycle afer which the new moon occurs on the same day of the year as at the beginning of the cycle. Meton was an Athenian astronomer of fifth cetury BC. He is supposed to have " discovered " it. Athens is a city of Greece. It is possible that he " pilfered " that theory from some other country, including India, but at least it goes to prove that there was some sort of astronomy in Greece in fifth century BCE, which predates Alexander's invasion in about 330 BC. And if Meton used it for calculating lunar New Moons/Full Moons more accurately, I have no complaints about him. But what I have complaint against is that if it had originated in India, why did our acharyas like Maya the " great " and Aryabhata and Brahmagupta and even Bhaskara-II not discuss it in their treatises? There is also a Saros cycle for eclipses. It is an astronomical cycle of about 6585 days and 8 hours. It is actually supposed to have been confused with the Babylonian cycle of 3600 years----of which it is a misnomer. There is every possibility that that cycle was known in India either to start with or even simultaneously with other countries. But why don't we find any references to the same at least in the later sidhantas if not in the Vedanga Jyotisha? Who is responsible for that? At least not Meton or even Greece or Babylonia for that matter! You are saying Metonic cycle is in the Vedas! It may be, but why don't you give the exact reference where you find it. You havesaid, " there is loop hole inMax Muller, Romila, Pingree and Witzel's theory " . Regarding Max Muller, Romilla Thapar and even Pingree etc., we must not forget that the are all " videshis " or semi-videshis! They do not have any cultural attachment/affinity to the Vedic culture which you and I have. Some of them may have independent thinking that swings to another extreme---of trying to prove that the Vedas are not as old as they are claimed to be. Being a Hindu to the core, I disagree with them, but when it comes to proving my points I lack woofully any concrete evidence. The main hurdle is created by " Vedic astrolgers " , when they want to go to the other extreme and try to prove that anything about predictive gimmicks originated from India. That defeats the entire purpose of discussion! Astrologers even go to the length of saying that though the portion of the Valmiki Ramayana giving the planetary details of Bhagwan Rama was not written by Valmiki himself, and the birth particulars were later added to it by somebody else or even Veda Vysa via his Adyatma Ramayana, i.e. almost after about 4000 years of the event! But those very birth particulars are now being " corroborated " by Dr. Vartak through his " sidedreal period calculations, which he has done manualy " , but even then they insist that the Mesha, Vrisha etc. rashis existed in India at least 9000 thousand years back and that is why we find the mention of planetary details of Bhagwan Ram in the Valmiki Ramayana " ! When it is pointed out to them politely that Mesha, Vrisha etc. rashis did not exist anywhere in the world even about five thousand years back, leave alone nine thousand years----they resort to nothing but abuses and hurling adjectives like " Christian missionary out to degrade Indian culture " , because according to them, if it is presumed that there were really no Mesha, Vrisha etc. rashis in India prior to the Surya Sidhanta by Maya the mlechha, they feel lost, and go on muttering incoherent half-truths! Let us take the case of the Surya Sidhanta itself! A gentleman was asked to explain as to how he had calcualted a particular ayanamsha for a partcular date as per the Surya Sidhanta and whether it was plus or minus and how it was relevant to the Surya Sidhanta calculations. His counter condition was that I must first solve the equation of Mandocha of Makaranda and so on! Instead of just a short explanation of his own calculations, all he did was abuse me left and right and even warn that legal action would be taken against me if I continued to ask him as to how he had calculated that ayanamsha! And his " friends " say that he alone was able to give me a befitting reply! And as you know, the Internet is being watched by everybody keenly these days! When we make such absurd statements and claims, for which we have not an iota of evidence, we lose our credibility in the world. Thus all our efforts to revive our Vedic culture in the real sense go down the drain, because at every step, before proving that the Vedic wisdom is really the most ancient and the loftiest, I am supposed to prove that the Vedic wisodom is nothing but a capsule of making correct predictions from non-existent Mesha, Vrisha etc. rashis through inanimate wandering planets known as Mangal, Shani etc., whose longitudes are to be calculated from the data supplied NASA! Those planets are supposed to affect us through intangible and elusive dasha-bhuktis and so on since all those " invisible components " are supposed to be holding not only you and me but even Bhagwan Ram and Krishen under their thralldom! < In arcahelogical evidence there have been Circular Vedis and Clepsydera in Harappa than are the archaelogical team is liar. That team consists of proof of western university so excavation can not be manipulated by Indians atleast.> No, archaeologists are not liars! But how old are the Circular Vedis and Clepsydera in Harappa? At least not nine thousand years! That is exactly what I tried to explain above. When we are bent on trying to prove the absurd claim that non-existent Mesha, Vrisha etc. rashis were hugged by India nine thousand years back, all the proofs about " Circular Vedis and Clepsydera in Harappa " make us a laughing stock---becaue that archaeological evidence is not more than six thousand years old----at the most---but here we are claiming to know " the science of making astrological predictions at least nine thousand years back " and the Surya Sidhanta even claims that we knew planetary astronomy vis-a-vis Mehsa, Vrisha etc. rashis millions of years back. So the ball is not in the court of David Pingree or Romilla Thapar etc. Not in your or my court either! It is actually in the court of " Vedic astrologers " ! Jai Shri Ram. A K Kaul Indian_Astrology_Group_Daily_Digest , Astro.Vedas@@ wrote: > > Dear Shri Kaulji, > > His theory has a deep loophole and you know what is that, it is no mention of Zoroasterian(Parsees) who migrated to Iran in around 1000 BCE who were later defeated by Arabians. AVESTA in which there was mention of seasonal calendar with Cardinal points, AVESTA(which is nothing but brother of VEDAS with some changes...) had given them opportunity to learn astronomy and also cycle of Sun and Moon....Now you got the point from where NKS penetrated in Mesopotamain works without any groud without any reasons. > > Do you want the proof that Metonic cycle doesnt predate to Alexandrain invasion?? Sun and Moon cycle was stolen from ancient Indo- Hitties(This is also mentioned in VEDAS read it) works who just wanted to give helping hand to douse the controversies between two ancient brothers Parsees and Indians. > > Parsees are old brother of Indians and in David Pingrees work there is no mention of them now imagine about the loop hole. > > You know Indo-European language emerged from Himalaya, those emerged because of religious fight between Parsees and Vedic ppl and centre of that was ARYAN KINGDOM. ARYANS were nobody but came in existence just because fight started between 2 section of VEDIC ppl. To defeat one section of VEDIC ppl one king made a kindom named as Aria kindom. Arya means noble man but later it took form of kingdom and other section started claiming that they are noble man and they defeated one section at Himalaya and said they are the Aryans. First Aryan King who defeted other section was the originator of Parsee religion. > > Parsees were defeated near Himalayan region and they migrated to central asian region, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan,Afganistan, near Mesopotamia etc etc, Romania and even some claims that they went in isolation to Germany and France. > > Now see where is the word AVESTA in David Pingrees work. > > There have been archaeological and textual evidences that AVESTAns were near to mesopotamian even AVESTA and Parsees themselves claim. Are they liar or David Pingree is God of History. > > I will also show the great loop hole of the works of Michael Witzel(Prof at Harvard) and Romila Thapar (Indologist and Historian). > > In arcahelogical evidence there have been Circular Vedis and Clepsydera in Harappa than are the archaelogical team is liar. That team consists of proff of western university so excavation can not be manipulated by Indians atleast. > > Kaulji, Should i show you proofs what Greeks and Roman were knowing about the astronomy, should i throw proofs. > > You know when Mercury, Venus penetrated in their literature, it was just in 4-5 cent BCE. > > I already said there is loop hole i nMax Muller, Romila, Pingree and Witzel's theory, i am seeing it Sir. > > Kaulji if i can stand with you than tell me can i lie ?? > > Astro.Vedas > > Indian_Astrology_Group_Daily_Digest , AKKaul@@ wrote: > > > > Dear friends, > > > > Jai Shri Ram > > > > > > > > The following link could be of interest to the members > > > > > > > > http://www.scribd.com/doc/16853102/D-PingreeAstronomy-and-Astrology-in-I\ \ ndia > > -and-Iran > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram > > > > A K Kaul > > > > > > > > PS > > > > My suggesting the above link does not mean at all mean that I agree or > > disagree with the views of David Pingree. > > > > AKK > > > --- End forwarded message --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 1, 2009 Report Share Posted November 1, 2009 Indian_Astrology_Group_Daily_Digest , " Krishen " <jyotirved wrote: Dear Astroveda, Jai Shri Ram! It appears you are either not reading my posts fully or are just ignoring the relevant points deliberately! You have said, " Kaulji,article which u passed says VJ was written in 5th cent BCE, and nks came fm mesopotamia.SS came india in 1st cent BCE means after 400 yrs after VJ than why we shud listen u,even we didnt find clepsydera in indus,IF THERE IS ANYTHING OFF TRACK LET ME KNOW " Why have you overlooked my following point in the post " Re: Vedic Origins of Zodiac by Dr. David Frawley " and I quote " Regarding the date of the Vedanga Jyotisha, it was certainly a work of at least around 1400 BCE, whatever authors like David Pingree may say. This I am going to prove scientifically in a separate post. The Vedanga Jyotisha gives the duration of a solar year as 366! " I had made it clear in my PS to David Pingree link that it did not mean that I disagreed with him totally, nor did it mean that I agreed with him totally! If someone has said/written something, whether it is David Pingree or David Frawley, we must evaluate those statements and then only we can say as to whether we agree with them or not. I have pondered on the the Vedanga Jyotisha a great deal and taken into account all the points raised by David Pingree and others. Only after being convinced myself first that the VJ is not of 5th century BCE but much older than that---at least 14th century BCE---I had said categorically " Regarding the date of the Vedanga Jyotisha, it was certainly a work of around 14th century BCE ....... " as quoted above. Now that you have touched the topic of the date of VJ, I do not have any doubt that astronomically it is at least of 14th century BCE. This I have checked through Vasishtha.exe program in Hinducalendar forum, which gives the position of Junction stars from 10000 BC to 12030 AD in a jiffy. But it is some of our " friendly Vedic astrologers " who are claiming that there is a mantra of " mina rashi... " --fifth mantra in the Yajur Jyotisham--- trying to prove thereby that even the Vedanga Jyotisha talked about Mina etc. Rashis! They are doing so under the impression that by trying to prove that Rashis have been mentioned in the VJ, they will be able to estblish the antiquity of Rashichakra in the Indian ethos, including the VJ, but actually they are doing the maximum damage to that very VJ that way---i.e. they are making their own indigenous Vedanga Jyotisha of 14th century BCE a work of post introduction of Rashi-chakra in India---which means they are making it a work of not even fifth centry BCE, but maybe even first century BCE/AD, since, as everybody knows by now, prior to the Surya Sidhanta of Maya the melchha, there were no Mesha etc. rashis in India, much less in the VJ! So here also the ball is not in the court of David Pingree or your or my court! It is again in the court of " Vedic astrologers " . Jai Shri Ram A K Kaul Indian_Astrology_Group_Daily_Digest , " Astro " astro.vedas@ wrote: > > > Why we shud follow ur calendar which is nothing bt influenced by mesopotamians,why we shud listen to vedas instead of ss if both r of foreign origin,this i learnt fm ur passed article,tx to ur dirty abusive tactics > > > > Kaulji,article which u passed says VJ was written in 5th cent BCE, and nks came fm mesopotamia.SS came india in 1st cent BCE > > means after 400 yrs after VJ than why we shud listen u,even we didnt find clepsydera in indus,IF THERE IS ANYTHING OFF TRACK LET ME KNOW > > Indian_Astrology_Group_Daily_Digest , " Krishen " <jyotirved@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Astroveda, > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > <Kaulji if i can stand with you than tell me can i lie ??> > > > > > > Who told you that you were lying? At least not me! > > > > > > If you see my PS to the post suggesting the Pingree link, I have made it > > > clear that it is being sent just for information so that everybody can > > > form his/her opinion, and it does not mean that either I agree or > > > diasgree with what Pingree has said! > > > > > > There are certain points in Pingree's article with which one has to > > > agree and there are quite a few points in the same article with which I > > > can never agree. My main search right now is for the origin of Mesha, > > > Vrisha etc. rashis---wherefrom did they originate and how were they > > > transposed to other countries and when. > > > > > > I have a request, however. When you say somthing like " The Vedas say so > > > ... " , pl. do give the exact references so that I do not have to look for > > > a needle in a haystack. Pl. donot be like the gentleman keeps on > > > repeating that the Manu has asked the kings to appoint astrologers, but > > > whenever he is asked to quote the exact shloka from the Manusmriti, he > > > says that I must go through that shastra to find it out for myself! > > > Which means as if I have not gone through it already but found that the > > > Manu has actually castigagted " nakshatra-soochis " insead of advising a > > > king to employ them. I even quoted all those references in several > > > posts, but still that gentleman goes on harping on the same tune " the > > > Manu has advised a king to appoint astrologer " . Perhaps he is confusing > > > Varahamihira with the Manu! > > > > > > Then again he goes on repeating that Shani and Mangal are in the Vedas > > > but when asked to quote the exact referencesl, instead of quoting the > > > references he goes on repeating that very statement on the shoulders of > > > his " parokshya knowledge " . But when it comes to calculating horoscopes, > > > he has to take recourse to NASA data instead of his > > > " parokshya-knolwege " ! > > > > > > Let us take the case of Metonic cycle. about which you have said, " Do > > > you want the proof that Metonic cycle doesnt predate to Alexandrain > > > invasion?? Sun and Moon cycle was stolen from ancient Indo- Hitties(This > > > is also mentioned in VEDAS read it) " but you have not given any > > > references as to which Veda has talked about it. > > > Metonic cycle is a 19 year cycle afer which the new moon occurs on the > > > same day of the year as at the beginning of the cycle. Meton was an > > > Athenian astronomer of fifth cetury BC. He is supposed to have > > > " discovered " it. Athens is a city of Greece. It is possible that he > > > " pilfered " that theory from some other country, including India, but at > > > least it goes to prove that there was some sort of astronomy in Greece > > > in fifth century BCE, which predates Alexander's invasion in about 330 > > > BC. And if Meton used it for calculating lunar New Moons/Full Moons > > > more accurately, I have no complaints about him. But what I have > > > complaint against is that if it had originated in India, why did our > > > acharyas like Maya the " great " and Aryabhata and Brahmagupta and even > > > Bhaskara-II not discuss it in their treatises? > > > > > > There is also a Saros cycle for eclipses. It is an astronomical cycle > > > of about 6585 days and 8 hours. It is actually supposed to have been > > > confused with the Babylonian cycle of 3600 years----of which it is a > > > misnomer. There is every possibility that that cycle was known in India > > > either to start with or even simultaneously with other countries. But > > > why don't we find any references to the same at least in the later > > > sidhantas if not in the Vedanga Jyotisha? > > > > > > Who is responsible for that? At least not Meton or even Greece or > > > Babylonia for that matter! You are saying Metonic cycle is in the > > > Vedas! It may be, but why don't you give the exact reference where you > > > find it. > > > > > > You havesaid, " there is loop hole inMax Muller, Romila, Pingree and > > > Witzel's theory " . > > > > > > Regarding Max Muller, Romilla Thapar and even Pingree etc., we must not > > > forget that the are all " videshis " or semi-videshis! They do not have > > > any cultural attachmentaffinity to the Vedic culture which you and I > > > have. Some > --- End forwarded message --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 1, 2009 Report Share Posted November 1, 2009 Dear A K Kaul, I m doing study of Vedic Texts and can quote references from vedas, upnishads, sutras, samhitas and itihash granthas. Wd ask you also to refresh your study as I wont allow you to post views without proofs and supporting shlokas, mantras, sutras. Utkal , " Krishen " <jyotirved wrote: > > > > Indian_Astrology_Group_Daily_Digest , " Krishen " > <jyotirved@> wrote: > > > > Dear Astroveda, > > Jai Shri Ram! > > <Kaulji if i can stand with you than tell me can i lie ??> > > Who told you that you were lying? At least not me! > > If you see my PS to the post suggesting the Pingree link, I have made it > clear that it is being sent just for information so that everybody can > form his/her opinion, and it does not mean that either I agree or > diasgree with what Pingree has said! > > There are certain points in Pingree's article with which one has to > agree and there are quite a few points in the same article with which I > can never agree. My main search right now is for the origin of Mesha, > Vrisha etc. rashis---wherefrom did they originate and how were they > transposed to other countries and when. > > I have a request, however. When you say somthing like " The Vedas say so > ... " , pl. do give the exact references so that I do not have to look for > a needle in a haystack. Pl. donot be like the gentleman who keeps on > repeating that the Manu has asked the kings to appoint astrologers, but > whenever he is asked to quote the exact shloka from the Manusmriti, he > says that I must go through that shastra to find it out for myself! > Which means as if I have not gone through it already but found that the > Manu has actually castigagted " nakshatra-soochis " insead of advising a > king to employ them. I even quoted all those references in several > posts, but still that gentleman goes on harping on the same tune " the > Manu has advised a king to appoint astrologer " . Perhaps he is confusing > Varahamihira with the Manu! > > Then again he goes on repeating that Shani and Mangal are in the Vedas > but when asked to quote the exact referencesl, instead of quoting the > references he goes on repeating that very statement on the shoulders of > his " parokshya knowledge " . But when it comes to calculating horoscopes, > he has to take recourse to NASA data instead of his > " parokshya-knolwege " ! > > Let us take the case of Metonic cycle. about which you have said, " Do > you want the proof that Metonic cycle doesnt predate to Alexandrain > invasion?? Sun and Moon cycle was stolen from ancient Indo- Hitties(This > is also mentioned in VEDAS read it) " but you have not given any > references as to which Veda has talked about it. > Metonic cycle is a 19 year cycle afer which the new moon occurs on the > same day of the year as at the beginning of the cycle. Meton was an > Athenian astronomer of fifth cetury BC. He is supposed to have > " discovered " it. Athens is a city of Greece. It is possible that he > " pilfered " that theory from some other country, including India, but at > least it goes to prove that there was some sort of astronomy in Greece > in fifth century BCE, which predates Alexander's invasion in about 330 > BC. And if Meton used it for calculating lunar New Moons/Full Moons > more accurately, I have no complaints about him. But what I have > complaint against is that if it had originated in India, why did our > acharyas like Maya the " great " and Aryabhata and Brahmagupta and even > Bhaskara-II not discuss it in their treatises? > > There is also a Saros cycle for eclipses. It is an astronomical cycle > of about 6585 days and 8 hours. It is actually supposed to have been > confused with the Babylonian cycle of 3600 years----of which it is a > misnomer. There is every possibility that that cycle was known in India > either to start with or even simultaneously with other countries. But > why don't we find any references to the same at least in the later > sidhantas if not in the Vedanga Jyotisha? > > Who is responsible for that? At least not Meton or even Greece or > Babylonia for that matter! You are saying Metonic cycle is in the > Vedas! It may be, but why don't you give the exact reference where you > find it. > > You havesaid, " there is loop hole inMax Muller, Romila, Pingree and > Witzel's theory " . > > Regarding Max Muller, Romilla Thapar and even Pingree etc., we must not > forget that the are all " videshis " or semi-videshis! They do not have > any cultural attachment/affinity to the Vedic culture which you and I > have. Some of them may have independent thinking that swings to another > extreme---of trying to prove that the Vedas are not as old as they are > claimed to be. Being a Hindu to the core, I disagree with them, but > when it comes to proving my points I lack woofully any concrete > evidence. > > The main hurdle is created by " Vedic astrolgers " , when they want to go > to the other extreme and try to prove that anything about predictive > gimmicks originated from India. That defeats the entire purpose of > discussion! Astrologers even go to the length of saying that though the > portion of the Valmiki Ramayana giving the planetary details of Bhagwan > Rama was not written by Valmiki himself, and the birth particulars were > later added to it by somebody else or even Veda Vysa via his Adyatma > Ramayana, i.e. almost after about 4000 years of the event! But those > very birth particulars are now being " corroborated " by Dr. Vartak > through his " sidedreal period calculations, which he has done manualy " , > but > even then they insist that the Mesha, Vrisha etc. rashis existed in > India at least 9000 thousand years back and that is why we find the > mention of planetary details of Bhagwan Ram in the Valmiki Ramayana " ! > > When it is pointed out to them politely that Mesha, Vrisha etc. rashis > did not exist anywhere in the world even about five thousand years back, > leave alone nine thousand years----they resort to nothing but abuses and > hurling adjectives like " Christian missionary out to degrade Indian > culture " , because according to them, if it is presumed that there were > really no Mesha, Vrisha etc. rashis in India prior to the Surya Sidhanta > by Maya the mlechha, they feel lost, and go on muttering incoherent > half-truths! > > Let us take the case of the Surya Sidhanta itself! A gentleman was > asked to explain as to how he had calcualted a particular ayanamsha for > a partcular date as per the Surya Sidhanta and whether it was plus or > minus and how it was relevant to the Surya Sidhanta calculations. His > counter condition was that I must first solve the equation of Mandocha > of Makaranda and so on! Instead of just a short explanation of his own > calculations, all he did was abuse me left and right and even warn that > legal action would be taken against me if I continued to ask him as to > how he had calculated that ayanamsha! And his " friends " say that he > alone was able to give me a befitting reply! > > And as you know, the Internet is being watched by everybody keenly these > days! When we make such absurd statements and claims, for which we have > not an iota of evidence, we lose our credibility in the world. > > Thus all our efforts to revive our Vedic culture in the real sense go > down the drain, because at every step, before proving that the Vedic > wisdom is really the most ancient and the loftiest, I am supposed to > prove that the Vedic wisodom is nothing but a capsule of making correct > predictions from non-existent Mesha, Vrisha etc. rashis through > inanimate wandering planets known as Mangal, Shani etc., whose > longitudes are to be calculated from the data supplied NASA! Those > planets are supposed to affect us through intangible and elusive > dasha-bhuktis and so on since all those " invisible components " are > supposed to be holding not only you and me but even Bhagwan Ram and > Krishen under their thralldom! > > < In arcahelogical evidence there have been Circular Vedis and > Clepsydera in Harappa than are the archaelogical team is liar. That team > consists of proof of western university so excavation can not be > manipulated by Indians atleast.> > > No, archaeologists are not liars! But how old are the Circular Vedis > and Clepsydera in Harappa? At least not nine thousand years! That is > exactly what I tried to explain above. When we are bent on trying to > prove the absurd claim that non-existent Mesha, Vrisha etc. rashis were > hugged by India nine thousand years back, all the proofs about " Circular > Vedis and Clepsydera in Harappa " make us a laughing stock---becaue that > archaeological evidence is not more than six thousand years old----at > the most---but here we are claiming to know " the science of making > astrological predictions at least nine thousand years back " and the > Surya Sidhanta even claims that we knew planetary astronomy vis-a-vis > Mehsa, Vrisha etc. rashis millions of years back. > > So the ball is not in the court of David Pingree or Romilla Thapar etc. > Not in your or my court either! It is actually in the court of " Vedic > astrologers " ! > > Jai Shri Ram. > > A K Kaul > Indian_Astrology_Group_Daily_Digest , > Astro.Vedas@@ wrote: > > > > Dear Shri Kaulji, > > > > His theory has a deep loophole and you know what is that, it is no > mention of Zoroasterian(Parsees) who migrated to Iran in around 1000 BCE > who were later defeated by Arabians. AVESTA in which there was mention > of seasonal calendar with Cardinal points, AVESTA(which is nothing but > brother of VEDAS with some changes...) had given them opportunity to > learn astronomy and also cycle of Sun and Moon....Now you got the point > from where NKS penetrated in Mesopotamain works without any groud > without any reasons. > > > > Do you want the proof that Metonic cycle doesnt predate to Alexandrain > invasion?? Sun and Moon cycle was stolen from ancient Indo- Hitties(This > is also mentioned in VEDAS read it) works who just wanted to give > helping hand to douse the controversies between two ancient brothers > Parsees and Indians. > > > > Parsees are old brother of Indians and in David Pingrees work there is > no mention of them now imagine about the loop hole. > > > > You know Indo-European language emerged from Himalaya, those emerged > because of religious fight between Parsees and Vedic ppl and centre of > that was ARYAN KINGDOM. ARYANS were nobody but came in existence just > because fight started between 2 section of VEDIC ppl. To defeat one > section of VEDIC ppl one king made a kindom named as Aria kindom. Arya > means noble man but later it took form of kingdom and other section > started claiming that they are noble man and they defeated one section > at Himalaya and said they are the Aryans. First Aryan King who defeted > other section was the originator of Parsee religion. > > > > Parsees were defeated near Himalayan region and they migrated to > central asian region, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan,Afganistan, near > Mesopotamia etc etc, Romania and even some claims that they went in > isolation to Germany and France. > > > > Now see where is the word AVESTA in David Pingrees work. > > > > There have been archaeological and textual evidences that AVESTAns > were near to mesopotamian even AVESTA and Parsees themselves claim. Are > they liar or David Pingree is God of History. > > > > I will also show the great loop hole of the works of Michael > Witzel(Prof at Harvard) and Romila Thapar (Indologist and Historian). > > > > In arcahelogical evidence there have been Circular Vedis and > Clepsydera in Harappa than are the archaelogical team is liar. That team > consists of proff of western university so excavation can not be > manipulated by Indians atleast. > > > > Kaulji, Should i show you proofs what Greeks and Roman were knowing > about the astronomy, should i throw proofs. > > > > You know when Mercury, Venus penetrated in their literature, it was > just in 4-5 cent BCE. > > > > I already said there is loop hole i nMax Muller, Romila, Pingree and > Witzel's theory, i am seeing it Sir. > > > > Kaulji if i can stand with you than tell me can i lie ?? > > > > Astro.Vedas > > > > Indian_Astrology_Group_Daily_Digest , AKKaul@@ > wrote: > > > > > > Dear friends, > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram > > > > > > > > > > > > The following link could be of interest to the members > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.scribd.com/doc/16853102/D-PingreeAstronomy-and-Astrology-in-I\ > \ > ndia > > > -and-Iran > > > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram > > > > > > A K Kaul > > > > > > > > > > > > PS > > > > > > My suggesting the above link does not mean at all mean that I agree > or > > > disagree with the views of David Pingree. > > > > > > AKK > > > > > > > --- End forwarded message --- > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2009 Report Share Posted November 2, 2009 Shri Utkal Panigrahiji, Jai Shri Ram! < I m doing study of Vedic Texts and can quote references from vedas, upnishads, sutras, samhitas and itihash granthas. > Very glad that you are doing a study of Vedic tests yourself since there is really a miniscule number of such people who do such studies themselves these days. <Wd ask you also to refresh your study as I wont allow you to post views without proofs and supporting shlokas, mantras, sutras.> That is again a vfery scientific spirit! Anybody who claims any Veda or any Smriti etc. advising the king to appoint a jyotishi, must, naturally support his arguments with proofs. I wonder whether you have studied BVB6.doc etc. that had been posted on this forum sometime back. Those documents do give exact references of the VJ and Puranas etc. Jai Shri Ram A K Kaul , " utkal.panigrahi " <utkal.panigrahi wrote: > > Dear A K Kaul, > > I m doing study of Vedic Texts and can quote references from vedas, upnishads, sutras, samhitas and itihash granthas. Wd ask you also to refresh your study as I wont allow you to post views without proofs and supporting shlokas, mantras, sutras. > > Utkal > > , " Krishen " jyotirved@ wrote: > > > > > > > > Indian_Astrology_Group_Daily_Digest , " Krishen " > > <jyotirved@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Astroveda, > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > <Kaulji if i can stand with you than tell me can i lie ??> > > > > Who told you that you were lying? At least not me! > > > > If you see my PS to the post suggesting the Pingree link, I have made it > > clear that it is being sent just for information so that everybody can > > form his/her opinion, and it does not mean that either I agree or > > diasgree with what Pingree has said! > > > > There are certain points in Pingree's article with which one has to > > agree and there are quite a few points in the same article with which I > > can never agree. My main search right now is for the origin of Mesha, > > Vrisha etc. rashis---wherefrom did they originate and how were they > > transposed to other countries and when. > > > > I have a request, however. When you say somthing like " The Vedas say so > > ... " , pl. do give the exact references so that I do not have to look for > > a needle in a haystack. Pl. donot be like the gentleman who keeps on > > repeating that the Manu has asked the kings to appoint astrologers, but > > whenever he is asked to quote the exact shloka from the Manusmriti, he > > says that I must go through that shastra to find it out for myself! > > Which means as if I have not gone through it already but found that the > > Manu has actually castigagted " nakshatra-soochis " insead of advising a > > king to employ them. I even quoted all those references in several > > posts, but still that gentleman goes on harping on the same tune " the > > Manu has advised a king to appoint astrologer " . Perhaps he is confusing > > Varahamihira with the Manu! > > > > Then again he goes on repeating that Shani and Mangal are in the Vedas > > but when asked to quote the exact referencesl, instead of quoting the > > references he goes on repeating that very statement on the shoulders of > > his " parokshya knowledge " . But when it comes to calculating horoscopes, > > he has to take recourse to NASA data instead of his > > " parokshya-knolwege " ! > > > > Let us take the case of Metonic cycle. about which you have said, " Do > > you want the proof that Metonic cycle doesnt predate to Alexandrain > > invasion?? Sun and Moon cycle was stolen from ancient Indo- Hitties(This > > is also mentioned in VEDAS read it) " but you have not given any > > references as to which Veda has talked about it. > > Metonic cycle is a 19 year cycle afer which the new moon occurs on the > > same day of the year as at the beginning of the cycle. Meton was an > > Athenian astronomer of fifth cetury BC. He is supposed to have > > " discovered " it. Athens is a city of Greece. It is possible that he > > " pilfered " that theory from some other country, including India, but at > > least it goes to prove that there was some sort of astronomy in Greece > > in fifth century BCE, which predates Alexander's invasion in about 330 > > BC. And if Meton used it for calculating lunar New Moons/Full Moons > > more accurately, I have no complaints about him. But what I have > > complaint against is that if it had originated in India, why did our > > acharyas like Maya the " great " and Aryabhata and Brahmagupta and even > > Bhaskara-II not discuss it in their treatises? > > > > There is also a Saros cycle for eclipses. It is an astronomical cycle > > of about 6585 days and 8 hours. It is actually supposed to have been > > confused with the Babylonian cycle of 3600 years----of which it is a > > misnomer. There is every possibility that that cycle was known in India > > either to start with or even simultaneously with other countries. But > > why don't we find any references to the same at least in the later > > sidhantas if not in the Vedanga Jyotisha? > > > > Who is responsible for that? At least not Meton or even Greece or > > Babylonia for that matter! You are saying Metonic cycle is in the > > Vedas! It may be, but why don't you give the exact reference where you > > find it. > > > > You havesaid, " there is loop hole inMax Muller, Romila, Pingree and > > Witzel's theory " . > > > > Regarding Max Muller, Romilla Thapar and even Pingree etc., we must not > > forget that the are all " videshis " or semi-videshis! They do not have > > any cultural attachment/affinity to the Vedic culture which you and I > > have. Some of them may have independent thinking that swings to another > > extreme---of trying to prove that the Vedas are not as old as they are > > claimed to be. Being a Hindu to the core, I disagree with them, but > > when it comes to proving my points I lack woofully any concrete > > evidence. > > > > The main hurdle is created by " Vedic astrolgers " , when they want to go > > to the other extreme and try to prove that anything about predictive > > gimmicks originated from India. That defeats the entire purpose of > > discussion! Astrologers even go to the length of saying that though the > > portion of the Valmiki Ramayana giving the planetary details of Bhagwan > > Rama was not written by Valmiki himself, and the birth particulars were > > later added to it by somebody else or even Veda Vysa via his Adyatma > > Ramayana, i.e. almost after about 4000 years of the event! But those > > very birth particulars are now being " corroborated " by Dr. Vartak > > through his " sidedreal period calculations, which he has done manualy " , > > but > > even then they insist that the Mesha, Vrisha etc. rashis existed in > > India at least 9000 thousand years back and that is why we find the > > mention of planetary details of Bhagwan Ram in the Valmiki Ramayana " ! > > > > When it is pointed out to them politely that Mesha, Vrisha etc. rashis > > did not exist anywhere in the world even about five thousand years back, > > leave alone nine thousand years----they resort to nothing but abuses and > > hurling adjectives like " Christian missionary out to degrade Indian > > culture " , because according to them, if it is presumed that there were > > really no Mesha, Vrisha etc. rashis in India prior to the Surya Sidhanta > > by Maya the mlechha, they feel lost, and go on muttering incoherent > > half-truths! > > > > Let us take the case of the Surya Sidhanta itself! A gentleman was > > asked to explain as to how he had calcualted a particular ayanamsha for > > a partcular date as per the Surya Sidhanta and whether it was plus or > > minus and how it was relevant to the Surya Sidhanta calculations. His > > counter condition was that I must first solve the equation of Mandocha > > of Makaranda and so on! Instead of just a short explanation of his own > > calculations, all he did was abuse me left and right and even warn that > > legal action would be taken against me if I continued to ask him as to > > how he had calculated that ayanamsha! And his " friends " say that he > > alone was able to give me a befitting reply! > > > > And as you know, the Internet is being watched by everybody keenly these > > days! When we make such absurd statements and claims, for which we have > > not an iota of evidence, we lose our credibility in the world. > > > > Thus all our efforts to revive our Vedic culture in the real sense go > > down the drain, because at every step, before proving that the Vedic > > wisdom is really the most ancient and the loftiest, I am supposed to > > prove that the Vedic wisodom is nothing but a capsule of making correct > > predictions from non-existent Mesha, Vrisha etc. rashis through > > inanimate wandering planets known as Mangal, Shani etc., whose > > longitudes are to be calculated from the data supplied NASA! Those > > planets are supposed to affect us through intangible and elusive > > dasha-bhuktis and so on since all those " invisible components " are > > supposed to be holding not only you and me but even Bhagwan Ram and > > Krishen under their thralldom! > > > > < In arcahelogical evidence there have been Circular Vedis and > > Clepsydera in Harappa than are the archaelogical team is liar. That team > > consists of proof of western university so excavation can not be > > manipulated by Indians atleast.> > > > > No, archaeologists are not liars! But how old are the Circular Vedis > > and Clepsydera in Harappa? At least not nine thousand years! That is > > exactly what I tried to explain above. When we are bent on trying to > > prove the absurd claim that non-existent Mesha, Vrisha etc. rashis were > > hugged by India nine thousand years back, all the proofs about " Circular > > Vedis and Clepsydera in Harappa " make us a laughing stock---becaue that > > archaeological evidence is not more than six thousand years old----at > > the most---but here we are claiming to know " the science of making > > astrological predictions at least nine thousand years back " and the > > Surya Sidhanta even claims that we knew planetary astronomy vis-a-vis > > Mehsa, Vrisha etc. rashis millions of years back. > > > > So the ball is not in the court of David Pingree or Romilla Thapar etc. > > Not in your or my court either! It is actually in the court of " Vedic > > astrologers " ! > > > > Jai Shri Ram. > > > > A K Kaul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Indian_Astrology_Group_Daily_Digest , > > Astro.Vedas@@ wrote: > > > > > > Dear Shri Kaulji, > > > > > > His theory has a deep loophole and you know what is that, it is no > > mention of Zoroasterian(Parsees) who migrated to Iran in around 1000 BCE > > who were later defeated by Arabians. AVESTA in which there was mention > > of seasonal calendar with Cardinal points, AVESTA(which is nothing but > > brother of VEDAS with some changes...) had given them opportunity to > > learn astronomy and also cycle of Sun and Moon....Now you got the point > > from where NKS penetrated in Mesopotamain works without any groud > > without any reasons. > > > > > > Do you want the proof that Metonic cycle doesnt predate to Alexandrain > > invasion?? Sun and Moon cycle was stolen from ancient Indo- Hitties(This > > is also mentioned in VEDAS read it) works who just wanted to give > > helping hand to douse the controversies between two ancient brothers > > Parsees and Indians. > > > > > > Parsees are old brother of Indians and in David Pingrees work there is > > no mention of them now imagine about the loop hole. > > > > > > You know Indo-European language emerged from Himalaya, those emerged > > because of religious fight between Parsees and Vedic ppl and centre of > > that was ARYAN KINGDOM. ARYANS were nobody but came in existence just > > because fight started between 2 section of VEDIC ppl. To defeat one > > section of VEDIC ppl one king made a kindom named as Aria kindom. Arya > > means noble man but later it took form of kingdom and other section > > started claiming that they are noble man and they defeated one section > > at Himalaya and said they are the Aryans. First Aryan King who defeted > > other section was the originator of Parsee religion. > > > > > > Parsees were defeated near Himalayan region and they migrated to > > central asian region, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan,Afganistan, near > > Mesopotamia etc etc, Romania and even some claims that they went in > > isolation to Germany and France. > > > > > > Now see where is the word AVESTA in David Pingrees work. > > > > > > There have been archaeological and textual evidences that AVESTAns > > were near to mesopotamian even AVESTA and Parsees themselves claim. Are > > they liar or David Pingree is God of History. > > > > > > I will also show the great loop hole of the works of Michael > > Witzel(Prof at Harvard) and Romila Thapar (Indologist and Historian). > > > > > > In arcahelogical evidence there have been Circular Vedis and > > Clepsydera in Harappa than are the archaelogical team is liar. That team > > consists of proff of western university so excavation can not be > > manipulated by Indians atleast. > > > > > > Kaulji, Should i show you proofs what Greeks and Roman were knowing > > about the astronomy, should i throw proofs. > > > > > > You know when Mercury, Venus penetrated in their literature, it was > > just in 4-5 cent BCE. > > > > > > I already said there is loop hole i nMax Muller, Romila, Pingree and > > Witzel's theory, i am seeing it Sir. > > > > > > Kaulji if i can stand with you than tell me can i lie ?? > > > > > > Astro.Vedas > > > > > > Indian_Astrology_Group_Daily_Digest , AKKaul@@ > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear friends, > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The following link could be of interest to the members > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.scribd.com/doc/16853102/D-PingreeAstronomy-and-Astrology-in-I\ \ > > \ > > ndia > > > > -and-Iran > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram > > > > > > > > A K Kaul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PS > > > > > > > > My suggesting the above link does not mean at all mean that I agree > > or > > > > disagree with the views of David Pingree. > > > > > > > > AKK > > > > > > > > > > > --- End forwarded message --- > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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