Fwd: [Ind. & West. Astrology] Fw: Dating of Ramayana Period

October 18, 2009

Indian_Astrology_Group_Daily_Digest , AKKaul@@

wrote:

Shri Gopal Krishna Geolji,

Gopal Krishna ki jai!

< 1.Valmiki Ramayan Does not say Rama was born in Madhu Masa.>

Fine, but Shri Sunil Bhattacharjya says that the janma-kundali of

Bhagwan Ram also was not given by Valmiki himself, since, according to

him, both the Balakanda and the Uttarakanda in the VR are a much later

addition by somebody else! He is more comfortabole with the

janma-kundali of Bhgwan Ram in the Adyatma Ramayana, which is supposed

to have been given by Krishna Dwaipayana Vedavyasa. And the Adyatma

Ramayana 1/3/14 has said categorically that Bhagwan Ram was born in

Madhu-masa!

In any case, even if we forget Madhumasa for the moment, VR 1/13/1 says,

" The vernal season (i.e. Vasanta Ritu) having appeared again and the

powerful monarch Dasharatha called on Vasishtha with a view to

commencing the horse sacrifice for the sake of a progeny " . Then in

1/14/1 the same VR says, " The aforementioned horse having returned on

the completion of a twelve-month after its release, the horse sacrifice

commenced on the northern bank of the Sarayu " Thus the " yajnya " was

completed in Vasanta Ritu itelf! In 1/18/8, the same VR has said, " In

the meantime six seasons (each consisting of two months) rolled away

after the scrifice was over, then on the ninth lunar day of Chaitra, the

twelfth month after the conclusion of the sacrifice, when the asterism

Punarvasu (presided over by Aditi) was in the ascendant....Shri Ram was

born " .

It thus leaves no doubut in anybody's mind that Bhagwan Ram had

incarnated in the first month of Vasanta Ritu, that was known as Chaitra

as per the VR and Madhu as per the Adyatma Ramayana and Goswami Tulsidas

and the Vedanga Jyotisha and the Puranas etc.!

The Vedanga Jyotisha, Rik-Jyotisha fifth and Yajur-jyotisha sixth

mantra---say that when the Sun and the Moon come together in Danishtha,

it is the month of Magha as well as Tapah.... If Magha = Tapah,

Phalguna is equal to Tapasya and Chaitra is equal to Madhu in that

order! So Bhagwan Ram was born in Madhu-cum-Chaitra, which is a so

called sayana phenomenon!

It also appears you have not gone through BVB6.doc at all, though it has

been posted several times in several forums, the latest one being a few

days back under " no subject " heading! Kindly do peruse it and you will

see that the Puranas also talk of Madhava = Vaishakha = sun in Mesha

which means Madhu is equal to Chaitra = sun in Mina! I have already

quoted Vedic mantras as saying " madhuschai madhavashchai vasantikav

ritoo " i.e. Madhu and Madhava are the months of Vasanta Ritu!

If you take Lahiri Ephemeris (the bible of nirayanawalas!) you will see

that also talking of Madhu and Vedic Chaitra in the same breath!

Thus whicdhever way you look at it, the sun could neither be in so

called Sayana Mesha nor in so called nirayana (or even Sayana) Mina at

the time of birth of Bhagwan Ram, since that is an asronomically

impossible combination!

Gopal Krishna Ki Jai!

A K Kaul

Indian_Astrology_Group_Daily_Digest , GKGoel@@

wrote:

>

> Dear Kaul Sahib apki jai.

> 1.Valmiki Ramayan Does not say Rama was born in

> Madhu Masa.

> 2.Rama was born in the month of Chaitra . This is

> Lunar month linked with star chitra.

> 3.Kindly refer Taittiriya Samhita 7.4.8 =

> 'Chaitra full moon is the mouth of the Sambatsar'

> 4.Whole India is following SIDREAL SAMVATSAR

> for last 4000 years continuously . On this basis.

> we now have vikram samvatsar of 2066.

> 5.Six ritu only means -' after one solar year'.

> 6.Ramayana does not say it was Sukla paksha,

> it is only inference.

> Regards,

>

> G.K.GOEL

> Ph: 09350311433

> Add: L-409, SARITA VIHAR

> NEW DELHI-110 076

> INDIA

>

> ________________________________

> jyotirved jyotirved@

>

> Cc: hinducalendar ;

indian_astrology_group_daily_digest ; subash razdan

subashrazdan@; indiaarchaeology ;

Vedic AstrologyForum

> Thu, 15 October, 2009 9:32:58 PM

> [ind. & West. Astrology] Fw: Re:

Dating of Ramayana Period

>

> Dear Shri

> Gopal Krishna Goel-ji,

> Gopal

> Krishna ki jai!

> In your

> original post of Oct 8 you have said:

> " 1.

> There may be some reasons to believe, but sloka does not say that Rama

> was born in dark or bright half of the lunar month.

> 2. If it is assumed that SIDREAL lunar month of chaitra was referred

in

> the text. In that case Sun can be either in Pisces or

> Aries " .â€

> Since you

> are a scholar of the Valmiki Ramayana, Ramacharitamanasa and Adyatma

Ramayana,

> you must appreciate that there are a few astronomical impossibilities

in this

> statement:

> 1. The

> Valmiki Ramayana 1/18/8 has said

> tato yajnye

> sampate tu ritoonam shat samatyayuh tatashchai dwadashe maase chaitre

navamike

> tithav

> The Gita

> Press translation says, â€œIn the meantime six seasons (each

consisting of

> two months) rolled away after the sacrifice was over. Then on the

ninth

> lunar day (of the bright fortnight) of Chaitra, the twelfth month

after the

> conclusion of the sacrifice, .... "

> Since twelve

> months had elapsed after the sacrifice was over, which was in Vasanta

Ritiu, it

> was therefore the first month of Vasanta Ritu, which is known as Madhu

as per

> the Vedas and the Vedanga Jyotisha etc., when Bhagwan Ram incarnated.

It

> is the same month that is also known as Chaitra in the VJ. Though in

the VR no

> mention has been made of " Madhu " but only Chaitra, however, the

> Adyatma Ramayana, 1/3/14 has said categorically:

> 2. Madhumase

> site pakshye navamyam karkate shubhe Punarvasu rikshya sahite

uchhasthe graha

> panchake

> Which means,

> â€œIn the month of Madhu, in shukla pakshya, navmi tithi, karkata

(lagna),

> Punarvasu nakshatra and five planets either exalted or in their own

> rashisâ€.

> Similarly,

> Goswami Tulsidas is very sure when he says

> 3. Navmi

> tithi madhumasa puneeta sukal pachha abhijta haripreeta

> i.e.

> â€œIt was the holy Madhumasa, navmi tithi, shkula pakshya and

abhijit, which

> is dear to Godâ€.

> It is thus

> clear that it was the first month of Vasanta Ritu, the month of

> Madhu-cum-Chaitra definitely. It was also a Shukla paksha navmi.

> 4. The

> Yajurveda says, â€œmadhuschai madhavaschai vasantikav

ritooâ€ i.e.

> Madhu and Madhava are the months of Vasanta Ritu.

> Now if it

> was Madhumasa, and if, against all the prevailing logic and reasons,

we presume

> that Mesha etc. rashis did exist in India in about 7300 BCE, then

Madhumasa and

> Sun in Mina---and not in Mesha----can exist simultaneously only if the

sun is

> in the so called sayana Mina Rashi!

> 5. If you

> presume that it is a so called nirayana rashi, which â€œVedic

> astrologersâ€ call euphemistically sidereal rashis, then we have

to take

> into account the Ayanamsha which is without any rhyme or reason linked

to

> precession by these very â€œVedic astrologersâ€.

> â€œalmightyâ€ Lahiri Ayanamsha as on December 4, 7323 BCE,

the date of

> birth of Bhagwan Ram as per Dr. Vartak, was, plus 103Â°-41â€™.

It means the

> â€œalmightyâ€ Lahiri sun would have to be somewhere in

Karkata, even

> if we presume that it was Madhumasa on December 4, 7323 BCE, which it

was not

> actually, as we shall see shortly!

> Thus linking

> of Madhumasa-cum- Chaitra to a so called nirayana Mina or Mesha rashi

as back as

> 7323 BCE is in itself a self-defeating premise even if we ignore other

anachronisms

> like Punarvasu nakshatra cum shukla paksha navmi of Madhumasa, with

the moon in

> Karkata and the sun in Mina/Mesha etc.!

> You have

> also said, â€œDR. Vartak is a well known authority and this mail

is not

> question his findingsâ€.

> 6. We must

> come out of the habit of taking â€œfindingsâ€ of

â€œauthoritiesâ€

> at their face value and not questioning their veracity! It is our

blind faith

> in Maya the mlechhaâ€™s dictum that the Surya Sidhanta was a

â€œrevelationâ€

> by Surya Bhagwan that has landed the entire Hindu community in such a

mess that

> we are celebrating all our festivals on wrong days!

> If Dr.

> Vartak had even an elementary knowledge of astronomy, he should have

known that

> if it was Madhu-cum-Chaitra masa, it could never have been so called

sayana sun

> in Mesha but only in Mina. As he also believes in so called sidereal

rashis,

> he should have known that a nirayana mina rashi in Madhu-cum-Chaitra

would take

> place only if it was away by about 180 degrees from Sayana Mina Surya

i.e. about

> 72 multiplied by 180 = 12960 years before 285 AD, when the so called

nirayana Lahiri

> zodiac and the so called sayana zodiacs are supposed to have

coincided! Thus â€œVartak

> Ramâ€ should have incarnated in about 13000 BCE (and not in 7323

BCE) if

> his sun was in Lahiri Mina, since it was only then that it could have

coincided

> with Madhu-cum-Chaitra!

> I may also mention

> here that the actual longitudes of the sun, Moon and Rahu etc. on

December 4,

> 7323 BCE were:

> Sayana sun was

> actually about 18 degrees in Tula (about 2 degrees in Lahiri

Kumbha)----as

> against the Valmiki/AR sun either in Mina or Mesha according to you

and other

> jyotishis!

> Sayana Moon was

> actually about zero degrees in Makar (about 13 degrees in Lahiri

Mesha)---as

> against Karkata Rashi as per the VR/AR etc.

> Sayana Mean

> Rahu about two degrees in Mithuna (about 15 degrees in Lahiri

Kanya)---as

> against Mina Rashi of jyotishis!

> It was

> Shukla Paksha Shashthi (and not navmi) besides Sayana Uttarashada and

Lahiri

> Magha nakshatra on December 4, 7323 BCE, without any corrections for

Delta

> Time. Even if we presume that the difference in Delta Time was about

seven

> days in 7000 BCE, things are not going to be much different!

> It was

> neither the month of Madhu-cum-Chaitra nor Vasanta Ritu!

> Thus

> everything on December 4, 7323 BCE was contrary to what is supposed to

have

> been given in the VR/AR and what Dr. Vartak claims to have deciphered

on that

> date!

> All the

> above details can be checked from Vishnu.exe program that anybody can

download

> for free from hinducalendar forum and calculate vara (weekday), tithi,

> nakshatra, yoga, karna and the longitudes of the sun, moon and mean

Rahu (both

> sayana and Lahiri) from 10000 BCE to 12030 AD in a jiffy!

> I,

> therefore, think that we should close this Rama-janma-kundali prakran,

since

> there should not be any doubt in anybodyâ€™s mind now that the

month of

> Madhu-cum-Chaitra cannot go with the sun in Mina Rashi, unless it is a

so

> called sayana Mina Rashi, and â€œVedic jyotishisâ€ are not

going to

> accept it at any cost. We must also bear in mind that there were no

Mesha etc.

> rashis anywhere in the world in about 3000 BCE at the earliest, so to

presume

> that someone could have calculated Bhagwan Ramâ€™s birth chart in

7323 BCE

> is extremely farfetched, to say the least! It actually presents a very

poor

> picture of the entire Hindu community, as to how gullible we can be.

> THE JYOTISHA

> JARGON ABOUT THE PLANETARY POSITION IN THE VALMIKI AND ADYATMA

RAMAYANA IS THUS

> AN INTERPLATION AND NOTHING BUT AN INTERPOLATION BY SOME GOOD FOR

NOTHING

> JYOTISHI.

> Gopal Krishna

> ki jai.

> A K Kaul

>

> ,

> Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya

> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Goelji,

> >

> > Kindly have a look at the following analysis.

> >

> > 1)

> > Dr. Vartak manually calculated the approximate year of Lord Rama's

birth

> from precessional data. He has given all these details in his book on

the date

> of Ramayana. One must give credit to him for that. For those

interested in

> Ancient Indian History this alone is sufficient as this date is

corroborated by

> the Surya-vamsha lineage given in the Puranas.

> > 2)

> > Dr. Vartak also mentioned about a Buddhist text which gives the

time-gap

> between the year of Lord Rama's going to Sri Lanka and the Parinirvana

of

> Lord Buddha. Dr. Vartak could not relate that date as he was not aware

> that Lord Buddha passed away in 1807 BCE. At that time of writing his

> book he was aware of the Max Mullerian date in the 5th century BCE

only.

> The year 1807 BCE as the date of parinirvana of Lord Buddha was worked

> out by Late Kota Venkatachalam from the Puranic data and the work of

> Prof. Narahari Achar using Astrological data and my own work from

study of the

> Dotted Record confirm the date of Kota Venkatachalam. Now it is seen

that the

> precessional data and the information from the Buudhist text quoted by

Dr.

> Vartak tallies.

> >

> > Now coming to the exact day from the astrlogical data I agree that

it is a

> contentious issue but by applying our mind we can sort out the issue

from the

> following analysis :

> >

> > 3)

> > Lord Rama was born at noon. So the Sun was in the tenth house or

> near the tenth house. If his ascendent is Cancer then the Sun has to

be either

> in the Arties or closest to the Aries.

> > 4)

> > Adhyatma Ramayana, a later day text from Purana, says that the Sun

was

> reaching Aries. It could mean that the Sun was closest to Aries.

> > 5)

> > Now if the Sun is closest to aries and the Moon is in Cancer then it

means

> that Lord Rama was born in a Shuklapaksha Navam and not Krishnapaksha

Navami.

> > 6)

> > The Sun actually appears to be around 27 degree in Pisces. This

> surprisingly means that Budha (Mercury) is in the nakshatra Revati,

which it

> rules. Astrologically speaking had the Sun been at the Aries (ie. in

Lord

> Rama's tenth sign) Kaikeyi would not have succeeded in taking away the

kingship

> from Lord Rama. It is another matter that he was born to take away

Ravana from

> the earth.

> > 7)

> > Five planets were in sva and / or uccha. The Moon and Jupiter in

cancer

> means the Moon was in Sva-hiouse and Juoiter in the house of

exaltation. It is

> quite possible that the Mars, Venus and Saturn could have been in sva-

houes /

> exalted. Now the Saturn's position can be found out if one knows the

> approximate date as in the geo-centric model it takes the longest time

among

> the Grahas to move round the earth. From the precessional data Dr.

vartak found

> out the approximate year of Lord Rama's birth and that fixes the

position of

> saturn in Libra. So some unceratinty remains regarding the fast moving

planets

> Mars and Venus.

> >

> > Dr. Vartak did all calculations manually and gives full deatils of

those

> in his book. His is an open book and he found the year of Lord Rama's

birth

> closest to the date he arrived from the precessional data. But he too

goofed up

> regarding the position of the Sun. He took the Sun at Aries. The

Buddist text

> he quotes helps us find the date as 7329 BCE whereas Dr. Vartak

arrived at the

> date of 7323 BCE.

> >

> > This does not matter, as for the purpose of fixing the day for

festivals

> we have all the required data and the historian also cannot complain

as they

> get a figure, which fits in with all the puranic data The Puranic yuga

> calculation also tallies with this date in the Treta yuga. To my mind

Dr.

> Vartak's date of Lord Rama is the best astronomical date found so far.

> The date of Bharata and of Lakhna and Shatrughna is very clear. Bharat

was born

> in the Pushya makshatra and Mina Lagna, ie. late in the night

following Lord

> Rama's birth. It is interesting to see that he got the kingship as the

Sun was

> in his Lagna. Lakshmana and Shatrughna were born in the Ashlesh

nakshatra

> (ie. the Moon was in the Ashlesha Nakshatra) and at Sunrise (and that

> means in in Cancer Lagna). This is for astrological discussions only

> and the historians will not be interested in these finer details.

> >

> > Finally I would ike to submit that though I love astrology and

picking up

> the pebbles on the sea shore I look at the chrological matters more

through the

> historical ( that includes puranic records too) and astronomical data

than

> through astrology alone.

> >

> > Regards,

> >

> > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya

> >

> > --- On Thu, 10/8/09, gopal krishna goel g.k.goel@

> wrote:

> >

> > gopal krishna goel g.k.goel@

> > RE: [ancient_indian_ astrology] Fw: Re: Dating of Ramayana

Period

> > ancient_indian_ astrology, @

. com, vedic astrology, vedic_research_

institute, indiaarchaeology

> > Thursday, October 8, 2009, 5:45 AM

>

> > Dear BHATTACHARJYA JI,

> > DR. Vartak is a well known authority and this mail is not

> > question his findings. In any case this is an unending debate

> > which never dies.

> > I have some observations:

> > Slola 1-18-8and 9 may mean as under:

> > After completion of yajna and lapse of 6 seasons,Rama was born

> > in 12th month of Chaitra , on ninth tithi(NAVAMIKE) ,

> > in Punarvasu Nakshatra, five planets were in their own and exalted

signs

> > (SAVOCHCHASANSTHESH U)-THIS MAY MEAN THAT FIVE PLANETS WERE IN THEIR

> > OWN EXALTED SIGNS OR THESE PLANETS WERE IN THEIR OWN AND/OR EXALTED

SIGNS-

> > cancer LAGNA WITH JUPITER AND Moon (VAKPATAVIDUNA SAH)

> > THE following OBSERVATION can be made:

> > 1. There may be some reasons to believe , but sloka does not say

> that Rama was born

> > in dark or bright half of the lunar month.

> > 2. If it is assumed that SIDREAL lunar month of chaitra was refered

> in the text.

> > In that case Sun can be either inPisces or

> Aries.

> > 3. What was the method of counting of tithis in those days?Probably

> mathematical tithi

> > were not in use in those days.Even , diva and ratri karna.

> > 4. What type of calander was in use in those days.Panch yugi

calender was

> in common use

> > having 62 months of 30 solar days each.

> > 5 If it is assumed that Five planets were in their exalted signs

> then Sun ,Jupiter,

> > Saturn, Mars and Venus were in exaltation signs.But if sloka

> means that five planets were in

> > own (sva) and Uchcha signs , Then their is no requirememt that Sun

> should also be in Aries,

> > In that case Moon , Jupiter,Saturn, Mars and Venus will meet the

> requirement of

> > of sloka regarding five planets.

> > 6. In any case if Sun is in Aries , it is dificult to explain that

> moon was in last pada of

> > Punarvasu nakshatra in cancer.

> > As regard following sloka:

> >

> > puShye jaataH tu bharato mIna lagne prasanna dhIH |

> > saarpe jaatau tu saumitrI kuLIre abhyudite ravau || 1-18-15

> >

> > " The meaning are clear - After Sun rise (abhyudite ravau), Bharat

was

> born in

> > pisces Lagna and Pusya Nakchatra.And two sons of Sumitra were born

> > in aslesha nakshatra and cancer sign. "

> > It may be mentioned that 'Vakpati means Jupiter as well as Pusya

> Nakshatra.

> >

> > This mail is just to seek clarifications on the points which are not

clear

> to me thus far.

> > It would be intresting to know the parametres which Dr. Vartak fed

in the

> computer to arrive a particular date. At least that date can be relied

upon

> upto the extent and on the basis of these parameteres.

> > Best regards,

> >

> > G. K. Goel

>

> Connect more, do more and share more with India Mail. Learn

more. http://in.overview.mail./

>

--- End forwarded message ---

October 19, 2009

Shri Kaulji,

You said

Fine, but Shri Sunil Bhattacharjya says that the janma-kundali of Bhagwan Ram

also was not given by Valmiki himself, since, according to him, both the

Balakanda and the Uttarakanda in the VR are a much later addition by somebody

else! He is more comfortabole with the janma-kundali of Bhgwan Ram in the

Adyatma Ramayana, which is supposed to have been given by Krishna Dwaipayana

Vedavyasa.

Did I say anywhere that the contents of the Balakanda are not authentic? Did I

say they are wrong? I said that Lord Rama has been presented in the Balakanda as

God and don't you think that is correct. Anybody with common sense will wonder

why is it that in the Balakanda and Uttara kanda Lord Rama had been shown as God

and in the

middle five kandas He has been shown as man,Â after reading the whole of the

Ramayana. I wonder why you did not notice that or did you not read the entire

Ramayana?. Any intelligent person will notice that and Sunil Bhattacharya is not

required to tell that. Do you understand that Shri Kaul?Â It could even be that

the sage Valmiki wrote the middle five kandas first and then he thought it fit

to add the Balakanda and the Uttarakanda later and there he presented him as God

as he realised what a divine person Lord Rama was. Treating Lord Rama as God the

Divya-varsha has been interpreted in the Siddhantic way by multiplying it by

360. The year was not taken as the Solar year as it should have been. I

explained that in earlier mails. I am sure except you every intelligent person

could understand that whoever read my mail.I hope it will be understood by you

now once for all and for Lord Rama's sake you will not repeat your false

statement as is your habit.

Secondly why are you lying by saying that I am more comfortable with the janma

kundali of Lord Ram in Adhyaqtma Ramayana. Where did I say that?Â My stand has

always been that Adhyatma Ramayana, which presents Lors Rama as God corroborates

what is said in the Valmiki Ramayana, more so in the Balakanda, where also Lord

Rama is presented as God.

Since the mail is addressed to Goyalji

he will reply to you.

Â

Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya

S.K.Bhattacjharjya

--- On Sun, 10/18/09, Krishen <jyotirved wrote:

Krishen <jyotirved

Fwd: [ind. & West. Astrology]

Fw: Re: Dating of Ramayana Period

Sunday, October 18, 2009, 6:21 AM

Â

Indian_Astrology_ Group_Daily_ Digest@grou ps.com, AKKaul@@