Guest guest Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 Dear Harishkumar ji, The intention of PNB may be correct as far as our calenar has gone out of tract. But taking the sayan system is not a vedic suggestion, it is the Gregorian suggestion. The vedic suggestion would be to maintain the nirayan saytem and yet reform our calendar the vedic way. This can easily be done by shifting our time frame by one whole month, so that our present Chaitra becoems the new Vaisakh or the present Meen sankranti becomes the new epochal Mesh sankranti. By this way the calendar is both reformed and the current nirayan system remains as it is. This method is the coordination of the concepts of two stalwarts of the nieteeth century- Bala ganagdhar Tilak and Shakar BK Dikshit. This is the best way to reform our calendar. Thanks, Hari Malla , " Harry " <harishkumar09 wrote: > > Have the members of this group gone through the works of Patrizia Norelli Bachelet(PNB)and her views on astrology ? She advocates the Sayana Tropical Zodiac as the correct system. She traces the problems of India to a faulty calender and states rectification of it will make us perceive the Cosmic Harmonies which will bring forth the Satya Yuga the Age of Truth. What has been lost is the perfect measure of Time which needs to be retrieved. A resetting of the cosmic clock is necessary according to her for us to See the Truth. > > Clearly,its obvious to a child that Makara Sankranti should be celebrated on 21 December on Winter Solstice day,the shortest day of the year. But the current Nirayana system celebrates it 23 days later. > > I give below a few useful links : > > www.aeongroup.com > > www.patrizianorellibachelet.com > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 Dear friends, Chaitra cannot be any other month as it is linked to the Chitra nakshatra. No change of name either of the nakshatra or of the month is possible. Only an utterly ignorant person will say so. But seeing their adamance it appears that these people have some ulterior motives for demanding the changa of name of the months and of the nakshatras. These adamant people are not willing to accept the other available ways. Regards, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya --- On Tue, 11/17/09, hari <harimalla wrote: hari <harimalla Re: The Views of Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet Tuesday, November 17, 2009, 5:53 PM  Dear Harishkumar ji, The intention of PNB may be correct as far as our calenar has gone out of tract. But taking the sayan system is not a vedic suggestion, it is the Gregorian suggestion. The vedic suggestion would be to maintain the nirayan saytem and yet reform our calendar the vedic way. This can easily be done by shifting our time frame by one whole month, so that our present Chaitra becoems the new Vaisakh or the present Meen sankranti becomes the new epochal Mesh sankranti. By this way the calendar is both reformed and the current nirayan system remains as it is. This method is the coordination of the concepts of two stalwarts of the nieteeth century- Bala ganagdhar Tilak and Shakar BK Dikshit. This is the best way to reform our calendar. Thanks, Hari Malla , " Harry " <harishkumar09@ ...> wrote: > > Have the members of this group gone through the works of Patrizia Norelli Bachelet(PNB) and her views on astrology ? She advocates the Sayana Tropical Zodiac as the correct system. She traces the problems of India to a faulty calender and states rectification of it will make us perceive the Cosmic Harmonies which will bring forth the Satya Yuga the Age of Truth. What has been lost is the perfect measure of Time which needs to be retrieved. A resetting of the cosmic clock is necessary according to her for us to See the Truth. > > Clearly,its obvious to a child that Makara Sankranti should be celebrated on 21 December on Winter Solstice day,the shortest day of the year. But the current Nirayana system celebrates it 23 days later. > > I give below a few useful links : > > www.aeongroup. com > > www.patrizianorelli bachelet. com > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 Dear Bhattacharyaji, Please read over the discussion of the two camps represented by Shankar BK Dixit and Balagangadhar Tilak in the nineteenth century, before you give your amateur comments. These men were very respected men of their times. Their views is dealt by Shakar Balakrishna Dixit in his Bharatiya jyotish. Please, first know the views of experts before passing comments.Let us see what they had said. It is very much necessary to study their above discussions.I hope you have the book.If not I can send the scanned pages. The two camps they represented have not succeeded so far to make progress any further. How long do you want the dead lock to continue? So it is better to compromise so that both the camps are adequetly represented in our present decision and settle the issue for good. Regards, Hari Malla , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya wrote: > > Dear friends, > > Chaitra cannot be any other month as it is linked to the Chitra nakshatra. No change of name either of the nakshatra or of the month is possible. Only an utterly ignorant person will say so. But seeing their adamance it appears that these people have some ulterior motives for demanding the changa of name of the months and of the nakshatras. These adamant people are not willing to accept the other available ways. > > Regards, > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > --- On Tue, 11/17/09, hari <harimalla wrote: > > hari <harimalla > Re: The Views of Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet > > Tuesday, November 17, 2009, 5:53 PM >  > > > > > Dear Harishkumar ji, > > The intention of PNB may be correct as far as our calenar has gone out of tract. But taking the sayan system is not a vedic suggestion, it is the Gregorian suggestion. The vedic suggestion would be to maintain the nirayan saytem and yet reform our calendar the vedic way. > > This can easily be done by shifting our time frame by one whole month, so that our present Chaitra becoems the new Vaisakh or the present Meen sankranti becomes the new epochal Mesh sankranti. By this way the calendar is both reformed and the current nirayan system remains as it is. This method is the coordination of the concepts of two stalwarts of the nieteeth century- Bala ganagdhar Tilak and Shakar BK Dikshit. > > This is the best way to reform our calendar. > > Thanks, > > Hari Malla > > , " Harry " <harishkumar09@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > Have the members of this group gone through the works of Patrizia Norelli Bachelet(PNB) and her views on astrology ? She advocates the Sayana Tropical Zodiac as the correct system. She traces the problems of India to a faulty calender and states rectification of it will make us perceive the Cosmic Harmonies which will bring forth the Satya Yuga the Age of Truth. What has been lost is the perfect measure of Time which needs to be retrieved. A resetting of the cosmic clock is necessary according to her for us to See the Truth. > > > > > > Clearly,its obvious to a child that Makara Sankranti should be celebrated on 21 December on Winter Solstice day,the shortest day of the year. But the current Nirayana system celebrates it 23 days later. > > > > > > I give below a few useful links : > > > > > > www.aeongroup. com > > > > > > www.patrizianorelli bachelet. com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 2009 Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 Harimallaji, Please keep your hypocrisy to yourself. Did you send the scanned copy of the that Kaundinya acharyaji's commentary on the commentary of Somakara to the Jyotishgroup. On the contrary you sent that to your friend Kaul's group. I know more about the works of the great scholars Bal Gangadhar tilakTilak and Shankar Balakrishna Dixit than you do. I respect the great scholarship of Tilak and admire his numerous valuable contributions such as the recovering of the lost verse of the Sankhya Karika, his book Gita Rahashya and the Orion, yet I reject his theory on the Arctic home of the Aryans. The present day scholars also do not agree with Tilak's view on that. Let us not forget that Tilak would have revised some of his views himself if he woiuld have been alive today becaues he was a lover of truth. So also is the case of Dixit. If he would have been alive today he too would have revised some of his ideas. The souls of both Tilak and Dixit will condemn those, who blindly stick to those ideas, which they would have rejected themselves today in the light of the vast amount of archaeological and other sciebtific findings. These two great scholars never talked about compromise. Learn from them these good things. Truth cannot be twisted. One must admit what is the truth. Only when one's own life is in danger and when one tells a joke then and then only one is allowed to speak an untruth . and not otherwise. Only crooks talk of compromising truth where is no need to as they do it for their own ulterior motives. Sincerely, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya --- On Wed, 11/18/09, hari <harimalla wrote: hari <harimalla Re: The Views of Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet Wednesday, November 18, 2009, 4:27 AM  Dear Bhattacharyaji, Please read over the discussion of the two camps represented by Shankar BK Dixit and Balagangadhar Tilak in the nineteenth century, before you give your amateur comments. These men were very respected men of their times. Their views is dealt by Shakar Balakrishna Dixit in his Bharatiya jyotish. Please, first know the views of experts before passing comments.Let us see what they had said. It is very much necessary to study their above discussions. I hope you have the book.If not I can send the scanned pages. The two camps they represented have not succeeded so far to make progress any further. How long do you want the dead lock to continue? So it is better to compromise so that both the camps are adequetly represented in our present decision and settle the issue for good. Regards, Hari Malla , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote: > > Dear friends, > > Chaitra cannot be any other month as it is linked to the Chitra nakshatra. No change of name either of the nakshatra or of the month is possible. Only an utterly ignorant person will say so. But seeing their adamance it appears that these people have some ulterior motives for demanding the changa of name of the months and of the nakshatras. These adamant people are not willing to accept the other available ways. > > Regards, > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > --- On Tue, 11/17/09, hari <harimalla@. ..> wrote: > > hari <harimalla@. ..> > Re: The Views of Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet > > Tuesday, November 17, 2009, 5:53 PM > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Harishkumar ji, > > The intention of PNB may be correct as far as our calenar has gone out of tract. But taking the sayan system is not a vedic suggestion, it is the Gregorian suggestion. The vedic suggestion would be to maintain the nirayan saytem and yet reform our calendar the vedic way. > > This can easily be done by shifting our time frame by one whole month, so that our present Chaitra becoems the new Vaisakh or the present Meen sankranti becomes the new epochal Mesh sankranti. By this way the calendar is both reformed and the current nirayan system remains as it is. This method is the coordination of the concepts of two stalwarts of the nieteeth century- Bala ganagdhar Tilak and Shakar BK Dikshit. > > This is the best way to reform our calendar. > > Thanks, > > Hari Malla > > , " Harry " <harishkumar09@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > Have the members of this group gone through the works of Patrizia Norelli Bachelet(PNB) and her views on astrology ? She advocates the Sayana Tropical Zodiac as the correct system. She traces the problems of India to a faulty calender and states rectification of it will make us perceive the Cosmic Harmonies which will bring forth the Satya Yuga the Age of Truth. What has been lost is the perfect measure of Time which needs to be retrieved. A resetting of the cosmic clock is necessary according to her for us to See the Truth. > > > > > > Clearly,its obvious to a child that Makara Sankranti should be celebrated on 21 December on Winter Solstice day,the shortest day of the year. But the current Nirayana system celebrates it 23 days later. > > > > > > I give below a few useful links : > > > > > > www.aeongroup. com > > > > > > www.patrizianorelli bachelet. com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 2009 Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 Dear Bhattacharyaji, Thank you for your reply. But I would humbly request you to re-read the opinions of the those two stalwarts, since you have the book Bhatatiya jyotish.It is interesting to see that you and shri AK Kaul are still making the same points and qaurrelilng on the sissue as they had done.Unless we compromise and accept the vedic coordiantive way, as mentioned in vedanga jyotish, what will happen to our derailed vedic calendar? So let both the sides go the true vedic way and not be egoistic. Regards, Hari Malla , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya wrote: > > Harimallaji, > > Please keep your hypocrisy to yourself. Did you send the scanned copy of the that Kaundinya acharyaji's commentary on the commentary of Somakara to the Jyotishgroup. On the contrary you sent that to your friend Kaul's group. I know more about the works of the great scholars Bal Gangadhar tilakTilak and Shankar Balakrishna Dixit than you do. > > I respect the great scholarship of Tilak and admire his numerous valuable contributions such as the recovering of the lost verse of the Sankhya Karika, his book Gita Rahashya and the Orion, yet I reject his theory on the Arctic home of the Aryans. The present day scholars also do not agree with Tilak's view on that. Let us not forget that Tilak would have revised some of his views himself if he woiuld have been alive today becaues he was a lover of truth. So also is the case of Dixit. If he would have been alive today he too would have revised some of his ideas. The souls of both Tilak and Dixit will condemn those, who blindly stick to those ideas, which they would have rejected themselves today in the light of the vast amount of archaeological and other sciebtific findings. > > These two great scholars never talked about compromise. Learn from them these good things. Truth cannot be twisted. One must admit what is the truth. Only when one's own life is in danger and when one tells a joke then and then only one is allowed to speak an untruth . and not otherwise. Only crooks talk of compromising truth where is no need to as they do it for their own ulterior motives. > > Sincerely, > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > --- On Wed, 11/18/09, hari <harimalla wrote: > > hari <harimalla > Re: The Views of Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet > > Wednesday, November 18, 2009, 4:27 AM >  > > > Dear Bhattacharyaji, > > Please read over the discussion of the two camps represented by Shankar BK Dixit and Balagangadhar Tilak in the nineteenth century, before you give your amateur comments. These men were very respected men of their times. Their views is dealt by Shakar Balakrishna Dixit in his Bharatiya jyotish. Please, first know the views of experts before passing comments.Let us see what they had said. It is very much necessary to study their above discussions. I hope you have the book.If not I can send the scanned pages. > > The two camps they represented have not succeeded so far to make progress any further. How long do you want the dead lock to continue? So it is better to compromise so that both the camps are adequetly represented in our present decision and settle the issue for good. > > Regards, > > Hari Malla > > > > , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote: > > > > > > Dear friends, > > > > > > Chaitra cannot be any other month as it is linked to the Chitra nakshatra. No change of name either of the nakshatra or of the month is possible. Only an utterly ignorant person will say so. But seeing their adamance it appears that these people have some ulterior motives for demanding the changa of name of the months and of the nakshatras. These adamant people are not willing to accept the other available ways. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > --- On Tue, 11/17/09, hari <harimalla@ ..> wrote: > > > > > > hari <harimalla@ ..> > > > Re: The Views of Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet > > > > > > Tuesday, November 17, 2009, 5:53 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Harishkumar ji, > > > > > > The intention of PNB may be correct as far as our calenar has gone out of tract. But taking the sayan system is not a vedic suggestion, it is the Gregorian suggestion. The vedic suggestion would be to maintain the nirayan saytem and yet reform our calendar the vedic way. > > > > > > This can easily be done by shifting our time frame by one whole month, so that our present Chaitra becoems the new Vaisakh or the present Meen sankranti becomes the new epochal Mesh sankranti. By this way the calendar is both reformed and the current nirayan system remains as it is. This method is the coordination of the concepts of two stalwarts of the nieteeth century- Bala ganagdhar Tilak and Shakar BK Dikshit. > > > > > > This is the best way to reform our calendar. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > , " Harry " <harishkumar09@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Have the members of this group gone through the works of Patrizia Norelli Bachelet(PNB) and her views on astrology ? She advocates the Sayana Tropical Zodiac as the correct system. She traces the problems of India to a faulty calender and states rectification of it will make us perceive the Cosmic Harmonies which will bring forth the Satya Yuga the Age of Truth. What has been lost is the perfect measure of Time which needs to be retrieved. A resetting of the cosmic clock is necessary according to her for us to See the Truth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Clearly,its obvious to a child that Makara Sankranti should be celebrated on 21 December on Winter Solstice day,the shortest day of the year. But the current Nirayana system celebrates it 23 days later. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I give below a few useful links : > > > > > > > > > > > > > > www.aeongroup. com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > www.patrizianorelli bachelet. com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 2009 Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 Dear Hari Malla, It is the Sayana system that is truly Vedic and thats exactly what the Rishi's used. The Nirayana system is non-vedic. Its not based on proper understanding of the Vedic Sacrifice. Sri Aurobindo came to give the correct interpretation of the Veda. And in the Aurobindo Ashram and also in Auroville only Sayana system is used. Only the tropical zodiac is the correct system. Regards, Harish Kumar. , " hari " <harimalla wrote: > > > Dear Harishkumar ji, > The intention of PNB may be correct as far as our calenar has gone out of tract. But taking the sayan system is not a vedic suggestion, it is the Gregorian suggestion. The vedic suggestion would be to maintain the nirayan saytem and yet reform our calendar the vedic way. > This can easily be done by shifting our time frame by one whole month, so that our present Chaitra becoems the new Vaisakh or the present Meen sankranti becomes the new epochal Mesh sankranti. By this way the calendar is both reformed and the current nirayan system remains as it is. This method is the coordination of the concepts of two stalwarts of the nieteeth century- Bala ganagdhar Tilak and Shakar BK Dikshit. > This is the best way to reform our calendar. > Thanks, > Hari Malla > , " Harry " <harishkumar09@> wrote: > > > > Have the members of this group gone through the works of Patrizia Norelli Bachelet(PNB)and her views on astrology ? She advocates the Sayana Tropical Zodiac as the correct system. She traces the problems of India to a faulty calender and states rectification of it will make us perceive the Cosmic Harmonies which will bring forth the Satya Yuga the Age of Truth. What has been lost is the perfect measure of Time which needs to be retrieved. A resetting of the cosmic clock is necessary according to her for us to See the Truth. > > > > Clearly,its obvious to a child that Makara Sankranti should be celebrated on 21 December on Winter Solstice day,the shortest day of the year. But the current Nirayana system celebrates it 23 days later. > > > > I give below a few useful links : > > > > www.aeongroup.com > > > > www.patrizianorellibachelet.com > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 20, 2009 Report Share Posted November 20, 2009 Dear Harry, Thank you for the information that Aurobindo Ashram is celebrating the festivals on the basis of sayan system. The vedic system is lunar based sayan system. This should be properly understood. Normally now days people understand the sayan solar based lunar festivals, when we talk of the sayan system. This is non vedic as confirmed by both vedanga jyotish and sidhanta jyotish. In the vedic system tithi is controlled by the sidereal sun position and this tithi should be tropically correct too.This method may thus be called as the lunar based sayan system.The fact that during vedang jyotish, uttarayan was taken when the sun and the moon were in dhanistha nakshyatra or that it was said to start when the sun was in makar sankranti (connected with the poush purnima tithi), during Sidhanta jyotish period, both conform to this fact. Thus our Vedic system is basically coordinative, where sayan and nirayan are both partially reflected. In 1957 during the formation of the National Calendar of India due to lack of this insight in the lulanr tithis, they passed the sayan solar system, leaving the lunar dates as of old, uncorrected. As this had adverse effect on the festivals to be celebrated on correct dates, conscientious people were prone to think that the sayan system is the vedic system too. It could be for this reason that Aurobindo Ashram also adopted the sayan system.But the analytical facts resulting from the study of the formulations of both the Vedanga jyotish and the Sidhanta jyotish confirms that the vedic system is essentially coordination of both the saynan and the nirayan concepts. Thank you for the interest. Regards, Hari Malla , " Harry " <harishkumar09 wrote: > > Dear Hari Malla, > It is the Sayana system that is truly Vedic and thats exactly what the Rishi's used. The Nirayana system is non-vedic. Its not based on proper understanding of the Vedic Sacrifice. Sri Aurobindo came to give the correct interpretation of the Veda. And in the Aurobindo Ashram and also in Auroville only Sayana system is used. Only the tropical zodiac is the correct system. > > Regards, > Harish Kumar. > > , " hari " <harimalla@> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Harishkumar ji, > > The intention of PNB may be correct as far as our calenar has gone out of tract. But taking the sayan system is not a vedic suggestion, it is the Gregorian suggestion. The vedic suggestion would be to maintain the nirayan saytem and yet reform our calendar the vedic way. > > This can easily be done by shifting our time frame by one whole month, so that our present Chaitra becoems the new Vaisakh or the present Meen sankranti becomes the new epochal Mesh sankranti. By this way the calendar is both reformed and the current nirayan system remains as it is. This method is the coordination of the concepts of two stalwarts of the nieteeth century- Bala ganagdhar Tilak and Shakar BK Dikshit. > > This is the best way to reform our calendar. > > Thanks, > > Hari Malla > > , " Harry " <harishkumar09@> wrote: > > > > > > Have the members of this group gone through the works of Patrizia Norelli Bachelet(PNB)and her views on astrology ? She advocates the Sayana Tropical Zodiac as the correct system. She traces the problems of India to a faulty calender and states rectification of it will make us perceive the Cosmic Harmonies which will bring forth the Satya Yuga the Age of Truth. What has been lost is the perfect measure of Time which needs to be retrieved. A resetting of the cosmic clock is necessary according to her for us to See the Truth. > > > > > > Clearly,its obvious to a child that Makara Sankranti should be celebrated on 21 December on Winter Solstice day,the shortest day of the year. But the current Nirayana system celebrates it 23 days later. > > > > > > I give below a few useful links : > > > > > > www.aeongroup.com > > > > > > www.patrizianorellibachelet.com > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 20, 2009 Report Share Posted November 20, 2009 Dear Harishji, Do you think Patrizia follows all that Sri Aurobindo and Mother said? Is she not corrupting Sri Aurobindo's and the Mother's teachings? As regards her ideas on Indian calendar and astrology less said the better. Sincerely, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya --- On Thu, 11/19/09, Harry <harishkumar09 wrote: Harry <harishkumar09 Re: The Views of Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet Thursday, November 19, 2009, 9:08 AM Â Dear Hari Malla, It is the Sayana system that is truly Vedic and thats exactly what the Rishi's used. The Nirayana system is non-vedic. Its not based on proper understanding of the Vedic Sacrifice. Sri Aurobindo came to give the correct interpretation of the Veda. And in the Aurobindo Ashram and also in Auroville only Sayana system is used. Only the tropical zodiac is the correct system. Regards, Harish Kumar. , " hari " <harimalla@. ..> wrote: > > > Dear Harishkumar ji, > The intention of PNB may be correct as far as our calenar has gone out of tract. But taking the sayan system is not a vedic suggestion, it is the Gregorian suggestion. The vedic suggestion would be to maintain the nirayan saytem and yet reform our calendar the vedic way. > This can easily be done by shifting our time frame by one whole month, so that our present Chaitra becoems the new Vaisakh or the present Meen sankranti becomes the new epochal Mesh sankranti. By this way the calendar is both reformed and the current nirayan system remains as it is. This method is the coordination of the concepts of two stalwarts of the nieteeth century- Bala ganagdhar Tilak and Shakar BK Dikshit. > This is the best way to reform our calendar. > Thanks, > Hari Malla > , " Harry " <harishkumar09@ > wrote: > > > > Have the members of this group gone through the works of Patrizia Norelli Bachelet(PNB) and her views on astrology ? She advocates the Sayana Tropical Zodiac as the correct system. She traces the problems of India to a faulty calender and states rectification of it will make us perceive the Cosmic Harmonies which will bring forth the Satya Yuga the Age of Truth. What has been lost is the perfect measure of Time which needs to be retrieved. A resetting of the cosmic clock is necessary according to her for us to See the Truth. > > > > Clearly,its obvious to a child that Makara Sankranti should be celebrated on 21 December on Winter Solstice day,the shortest day of the year. But the current Nirayana system celebrates it 23 days later. > > > > I give below a few useful links : > > > > www.aeongroup. com > > > > www.patrizianorelli bachelet. com > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2009 Report Share Posted November 21, 2009 Dear Harry, Kindly confirm if the vedic correlationship I have drawn is satisfactory to you or not. Step by step we should proceed to arrive at the correct way of reforming our vedic calendar. This correction is of dire necessity now, since our populace are celebrating the festivals on wrong days,say lagging one month behind the schedule. The lunar dates are controlled by the sidereal sankrantis as you must be well knowing. But for them to get the actual seasonal value these same tithis must also touch the sayan dates. For example, during the sidhanta jyotish period,poush purnima was the uttaryan tithi which is the celebrations dates even today, and during the vedanga jyotiish period maagha sukla pratipada was the uttaryan tithi. Although they were related to the makar sankanti and the sun in dhanistha positions respectively, both of which are nirayan dates, they also touched the sayan uttarayan dates and got the true tropical values as well in a coordinated manner during the repective epochs. But now since poush purnima does not touch the actual uttrayan date, this makes it necesssary to correct our vedic calendar again as was done before, as mentioned by Brahmihir in his Brihad samhita.He has said 'In the old scriptures it is mentioned that uttarayan occurs when the sun was in dhanistha nakshyatra, because it was true those days. But now uttrayan occurs when the sun is in makar sankranti, which can be verified practically.' Thus by shifting the sidereal uttarayan to makar sankranti and the uttarayan tithi to poush purnima, which is evident by the shift of maagha snana,the coordination of the tropical uttaryan date and the sidereal utrarayan date by the respective tithi was maintained after reformation those days, say less than two thousand years ago. Should we also not do the reformation in the same way, to satisfy the vedic coordination clause specified by the sixth sloka of yajur vedang jyotish is my question. Please give your valuable suggestion. Thank you, Regards Hari Malla , " Harry " <harishkumar09 wrote: > > Dear Hari Malla, > It is the Sayana system that is truly Vedic and thats exactly what the Rishi's used. The Nirayana system is non-vedic. Its not based on proper understanding of the Vedic Sacrifice. Sri Aurobindo came to give the correct interpretation of the Veda. And in the Aurobindo Ashram and also in Auroville only Sayana system is used. Only the tropical zodiac is the correct system. > > Regards, > Harish Kumar. > > , " hari " <harimalla@> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Harishkumar ji, > > The intention of PNB may be correct as far as our calenar has gone out of tract. But taking the sayan system is not a vedic suggestion, it is the Gregorian suggestion. The vedic suggestion would be to maintain the nirayan saytem and yet reform our calendar the vedic way. > > This can easily be done by shifting our time frame by one whole month, so that our present Chaitra becoems the new Vaisakh or the present Meen sankranti becomes the new epochal Mesh sankranti. By this way the calendar is both reformed and the current nirayan system remains as it is. This method is the coordination of the concepts of two stalwarts of the nieteeth century- Bala ganagdhar Tilak and Shakar BK Dikshit. > > This is the best way to reform our calendar. > > Thanks, > > Hari Malla > > , " Harry " <harishkumar09@> wrote: > > > > > > Have the members of this group gone through the works of Patrizia Norelli Bachelet(PNB)and her views on astrology ? She advocates the Sayana Tropical Zodiac as the correct system. She traces the problems of India to a faulty calender and states rectification of it will make us perceive the Cosmic Harmonies which will bring forth the Satya Yuga the Age of Truth. What has been lost is the perfect measure of Time which needs to be retrieved. A resetting of the cosmic clock is necessary according to her for us to See the Truth. > > > > > > Clearly,its obvious to a child that Makara Sankranti should be celebrated on 21 December on Winter Solstice day,the shortest day of the year. But the current Nirayana system celebrates it 23 days later. > > > > > > I give below a few useful links : > > > > > > www.aeongroup.com > > > > > > www.patrizianorellibachelet.com > > > > > > , " Harry " <harishkumar09 wrote: > > Dear Hari Malla, > It is the Sayana system that is truly Vedic and thats exactly what the Rishi's used. The Nirayana system is non-vedic. Its not based on proper understanding of the Vedic Sacrifice. Sri Aurobindo came to give the correct interpretation of the Veda. And in the Aurobindo Ashram and also in Auroville only Sayana system is used. Only the tropical zodiac is the correct system. > > Regards, > Harish Kumar. > > , " hari " <harimalla@> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Harishkumar ji, > > The intention of PNB may be correct as far as our calenar has gone out of tract. But taking the sayan system is not a vedic suggestion, it is the Gregorian suggestion. The vedic suggestion would be to maintain the nirayan saytem and yet reform our calendar the vedic way. > > This can easily be done by shifting our time frame by one whole month, so that our present Chaitra becoems the new Vaisakh or the present Meen sankranti becomes the new epochal Mesh sankranti. By this way the calendar is both reformed and the current nirayan system remains as it is. This method is the coordination of the concepts of two stalwarts of the nieteeth century- Bala ganagdhar Tilak and Shakar BK Dikshit. > > This is the best way to reform our calendar. > > Thanks, > > Hari Malla > > , " Harry " <harishkumar09@> wrote: > > > > > > Have the members of this group gone through the works of Patrizia Norelli Bachelet(PNB)and her views on astrology ? She advocates the Sayana Tropical Zodiac as the correct system. She traces the problems of India to a faulty calender and states rectification of it will make us perceive the Cosmic Harmonies which will bring forth the Satya Yuga the Age of Truth. What has been lost is the perfect measure of Time which needs to be retrieved. A resetting of the cosmic clock is necessary according to her for us to See the Truth. > > > > > > Clearly,its obvious to a child that Makara Sankranti should be celebrated on 21 December on Winter Solstice day,the shortest day of the year. But the current Nirayana system celebrates it 23 days later. > > > > > > I give below a few useful links : > > > > > > www.aeongroup.com > > > > > > www.patrizianorellibachelet.com > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2009 Report Share Posted November 21, 2009 Dear friends, Everybody connected with calendar seems to avoid the Mahashivaratri issue. This year in February 2009 we observed the Mahashivaratri two months after the Winter Solstice in December 2008, whereas in the Kaushitaki Brahman the Shivaratri coincided with the Winter solstice. This is a clear case of ignoring the Sayana calendar for observing one of the most important festival of the Hindus. If one respects the Vedas and the Vedic calendar then any proposedcalendar should be able to explain the growing distance between the date of the Winter Solstice and the date of the Mahashivararti. Friends, who are genuinely interested in Vidic Calendar please wake up and look at the case mentioned, which will tell you that the Sayana and the Nirayana Calendars can coexist side by side without interfering with each other. Approximately every 25,800 years the the angular difference between the Sayana and the Nirayana positions will be repeated. No compromise of any sort will be required in Vedic calendar. A time will come when the Mahashivaratri will again coincide with the Winter Solstice. Of course you and me may not be there to see that happen. Regards, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya --- On Fri, 11/20/09, hari <harimalla wrote: hari <harimalla Re: The Views of Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet Friday, November 20, 2009, 7:36 PM  Dear Harry, Kindly confirm if the vedic correlationship I have drawn is satisfactory to you or not. Step by step we should proceed to arrive at the correct way of reforming our vedic calendar. This correction is of dire necessity now, since our populace are celebrating the festivals on wrong days,say lagging one month behind the schedule. The lunar dates are controlled by the sidereal sankrantis as you must be well knowing. But for them to get the actual seasonal value these same tithis must also touch the sayan dates. For example, during the sidhanta jyotish period,poush purnima was the uttaryan tithi which is the celebrations dates even today, and during the vedanga jyotiish period maagha sukla pratipada was the uttaryan tithi. Although they were related to the makar sankanti and the sun in dhanistha positions respectively, both of which are nirayan dates, they also touched the sayan uttarayan dates and got the true tropical values as well in a coordinated manner during the repective epochs. But now since poush purnima does not touch the actual uttrayan date, this makes it necesssary to correct our vedic calendar again as was done before, as mentioned by Brahmihir in his Brihad samhita.He has said 'In the old scriptures it is mentioned that uttarayan occurs when the sun was in dhanistha nakshyatra, because it was true those days. But now uttrayan occurs when the sun is in makar sankranti, which can be verified practically. ' Thus by shifting the sidereal uttarayan to makar sankranti and the uttarayan tithi to poush purnima, which is evident by the shift of maagha snana,the coordination of the tropical uttaryan date and the sidereal utrarayan date by the respective tithi was maintained after reformation those days, say less than two thousand years ago. Should we also not do the reformation in the same way, to satisfy the vedic coordination clause specified by the sixth sloka of yajur vedang jyotish is my question. Please give your valuable suggestion. Thank you, Regards Hari Malla , " Harry " <harishkumar09@ ...> wrote: > > Dear Hari Malla, > It is the Sayana system that is truly Vedic and thats exactly what the Rishi's used. The Nirayana system is non-vedic. Its not based on proper understanding of the Vedic Sacrifice. Sri Aurobindo came to give the correct interpretation of the Veda. And in the Aurobindo Ashram and also in Auroville only Sayana system is used. Only the tropical zodiac is the correct system. > > Regards, > Harish Kumar. > > , " hari " <harimalla@> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Harishkumar ji, > > The intention of PNB may be correct as far as our calenar has gone out of tract. But taking the sayan system is not a vedic suggestion, it is the Gregorian suggestion. The vedic suggestion would be to maintain the nirayan saytem and yet reform our calendar the vedic way. > > This can easily be done by shifting our time frame by one whole month, so that our present Chaitra becoems the new Vaisakh or the present Meen sankranti becomes the new epochal Mesh sankranti. By this way the calendar is both reformed and the current nirayan system remains as it is. This method is the coordination of the concepts of two stalwarts of the nieteeth century- Bala ganagdhar Tilak and Shakar BK Dikshit. > > This is the best way to reform our calendar. > > Thanks, > > Hari Malla > > , " Harry " <harishkumar09@ > wrote: > > > > > > Have the members of this group gone through the works of Patrizia Norelli Bachelet(PNB) and her views on astrology ? She advocates the Sayana Tropical Zodiac as the correct system. She traces the problems of India to a faulty calender and states rectification of it will make us perceive the Cosmic Harmonies which will bring forth the Satya Yuga the Age of Truth. What has been lost is the perfect measure of Time which needs to be retrieved. A resetting of the cosmic clock is necessary according to her for us to See the Truth. > > > > > > Clearly,its obvious to a child that Makara Sankranti should be celebrated on 21 December on Winter Solstice day,the shortest day of the year. But the current Nirayana system celebrates it 23 days later. > > > > > > I give below a few useful links : > > > > > > www.aeongroup. com > > > > > > www.patrizianorelli bachelet. com > > > > > > , " Harry " <harishkumar09@ ...> wrote: > > Dear Hari Malla, > It is the Sayana system that is truly Vedic and thats exactly what the Rishi's used. The Nirayana system is non-vedic. Its not based on proper understanding of the Vedic Sacrifice. Sri Aurobindo came to give the correct interpretation of the Veda. And in the Aurobindo Ashram and also in Auroville only Sayana system is used. Only the tropical zodiac is the correct system. > > Regards, > Harish Kumar. > > , " hari " <harimalla@> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Harishkumar ji, > > The intention of PNB may be correct as far as our calenar has gone out of tract. But taking the sayan system is not a vedic suggestion, it is the Gregorian suggestion. The vedic suggestion would be to maintain the nirayan saytem and yet reform our calendar the vedic way. > > This can easily be done by shifting our time frame by one whole month, so that our present Chaitra becoems the new Vaisakh or the present Meen sankranti becomes the new epochal Mesh sankranti. By this way the calendar is both reformed and the current nirayan system remains as it is. This method is the coordination of the concepts of two stalwarts of the nieteeth century- Bala ganagdhar Tilak and Shakar BK Dikshit. > > This is the best way to reform our calendar. > > Thanks, > > Hari Malla > > , " Harry " <harishkumar09@ > wrote: > > > > > > Have the members of this group gone through the works of Patrizia Norelli Bachelet(PNB) and her views on astrology ? She advocates the Sayana Tropical Zodiac as the correct system. She traces the problems of India to a faulty calender and states rectification of it will make us perceive the Cosmic Harmonies which will bring forth the Satya Yuga the Age of Truth. What has been lost is the perfect measure of Time which needs to be retrieved. A resetting of the cosmic clock is necessary according to her for us to See the Truth. > > > > > > Clearly,its obvious to a child that Makara Sankranti should be celebrated on 21 December on Winter Solstice day,the shortest day of the year. But the current Nirayana system celebrates it 23 days later. > > > > > > I give below a few useful links : > > > > > > www.aeongroup. com > > > > > > www.patrizianorelli bachelet. com > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2009 Report Share Posted November 21, 2009 Dear Bhatachryaji, Can you please explain what is meant by 'utttayan occurs when sun is in dhanistha or sun is in makar sanrkanti' at different times of our history.If they could be separated what was the necessity to shift the nirayan utttaryan from sun in dhanistha to sun in makar sankranti. If acoording to you indepeendant existaence of the two was OK, we could have as well continued with sun in dhanistha position of uttrayan even today. Why do you think they shifted it to makar sankranti as mentioned by Barhamihir.What was the need if your independant theory of sayan and nirayan was acceptable. Please note that nowadays Shiva ratri is not linked with winter solstice at all.That may have been an old concept which has no bearing today. At present Shivaratri is at the mid point between winter solstice,which is Poush purnima(designated by start of maagha snana) and spring equinox which is Chaitra purnima (designated by Vaisakh snana). If you think coupling of the sayan and the nirayan concepts are not needed then please explain why Vedanga jyotish had to coordinate the sun in dhanistha position, uttarayan and also maagha sukla pratipada together into one by thesixth sloka.Thus to be Vedic we have to coordinate sayan sankranti, nirayan sankranti and the lunar tithi together.Thanks. Hari Malla , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya wrote: > > Dear friends, > > Everybody connected with calendar seems to avoid the Mahashivaratri issue. This year in February 2009 we observed the Mahashivaratri two months after the Winter Solstice in December 2008, whereas in the Kaushitaki Brahman the Shivaratri coincided with the Winter solstice. This is a clear case of ignoring the Sayana calendar for observing one of the most important festival of the Hindus. If one respects the Vedas and the Vedic calendar then any proposedcalendar should be able to explain the growing distance between the date of the Winter Solstice and the date of the Mahashivararti. Friends, who are genuinely interested in Vidic Calendar please wake up and look at the case mentioned, which will tell you that the Sayana and the Nirayana Calendars can coexist side by side without interfering with each other. Approximately every 25,800 years the the angular difference between the Sayana and the Nirayana positions will be repeated. No compromise of any > sort will be required in Vedic calendar. A time will come when the Mahashivaratri will again coincide with the Winter Solstice. Of course you and me may not be there to see that happen. > > Regards, > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > --- On Fri, 11/20/09, hari <harimalla wrote: > > hari <harimalla > Re: The Views of Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet > > Friday, November 20, 2009, 7:36 PM >  > > > Dear Harry, > > Kindly confirm if the vedic correlationship I have drawn is satisfactory to you or not. Step by step we should proceed to arrive at the correct way of reforming our vedic calendar. This correction is of dire necessity now, since our populace are celebrating the festivals on wrong days,say lagging one month behind the schedule. > > The lunar dates are controlled by the sidereal sankrantis as you must be well knowing. But for them to get the actual seasonal value these same tithis must also touch the sayan dates. For example, during the sidhanta jyotish period,poush purnima was the uttaryan tithi which is the celebrations dates even today, and during the vedanga jyotiish period maagha sukla pratipada was the uttaryan tithi. Although they were related to the makar sankanti and the sun in dhanistha positions respectively, both of which are nirayan dates, they also touched the sayan uttarayan dates and got the true tropical values as well in a coordinated manner during the repective epochs. > > But now since poush purnima does not touch the actual uttrayan date, this makes it necesssary to correct our vedic calendar again as was done before, as mentioned by Brahmihir in his Brihad samhita.He has said 'In the old scriptures it is mentioned that uttarayan occurs when the sun was in dhanistha nakshyatra, because it was true those days. But now uttrayan occurs when the sun is in makar sankranti, which can be verified practically. ' Thus by shifting the sidereal uttarayan to makar sankranti and the uttarayan tithi to poush purnima, which is evident by the shift of maagha snana,the coordination of the tropical uttaryan date and the sidereal utrarayan date by the respective tithi was maintained after reformation those days, say less than two thousand years ago. > > Should we also not do the reformation in the same way, to satisfy the vedic coordination clause specified by the sixth sloka of yajur vedang jyotish is my question. > > Please give your valuable suggestion. Thank you, > > Regards > > Hari Malla > > > > , " Harry " <harishkumar09@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Hari Malla, > > > It is the Sayana system that is truly Vedic and thats exactly what the Rishi's used. The Nirayana system is non-vedic. Its not based on proper understanding of the Vedic Sacrifice. Sri Aurobindo came to give the correct interpretation of the Veda. And in the Aurobindo Ashram and also in Auroville only Sayana system is used. Only the tropical zodiac is the correct system. > > > > > > Regards, > > > Harish Kumar. > > > > > > , " hari " <harimalla@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Harishkumar ji, > > > > The intention of PNB may be correct as far as our calenar has gone out of tract. But taking the sayan system is not a vedic suggestion, it is the Gregorian suggestion. The vedic suggestion would be to maintain the nirayan saytem and yet reform our calendar the vedic way. > > > > This can easily be done by shifting our time frame by one whole month, so that our present Chaitra becoems the new Vaisakh or the present Meen sankranti becomes the new epochal Mesh sankranti. By this way the calendar is both reformed and the current nirayan system remains as it is. This method is the coordination of the concepts of two stalwarts of the nieteeth century- Bala ganagdhar Tilak and Shakar BK Dikshit. > > > > This is the best way to reform our calendar. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Hari Malla > > > > , " Harry " <harishkumar09@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Have the members of this group gone through the works of Patrizia Norelli Bachelet(PNB) and her views on astrology ? She advocates the Sayana Tropical Zodiac as the correct system. She traces the problems of India to a faulty calender and states rectification of it will make us perceive the Cosmic Harmonies which will bring forth the Satya Yuga the Age of Truth. What has been lost is the perfect measure of Time which needs to be retrieved. A resetting of the cosmic clock is necessary according to her for us to See the Truth. > > > > > > > > > > Clearly,its obvious to a child that Makara Sankranti should be celebrated on 21 December on Winter Solstice day,the shortest day of the year. But the current Nirayana system celebrates it 23 days later. > > > > > > > > > > I give below a few useful links : > > > > > > > > > > www.aeongroup. com > > > > > > > > > > www.patrizianorelli bachelet. com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Harry " <harishkumar09@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Hari Malla, > > > It is the Sayana system that is truly Vedic and thats exactly what the Rishi's used. The Nirayana system is non-vedic. Its not based on proper understanding of the Vedic Sacrifice. Sri Aurobindo came to give the correct interpretation of the Veda. And in the Aurobindo Ashram and also in Auroville only Sayana system is used. Only the tropical zodiac is the correct system. > > > > > > Regards, > > > Harish Kumar. > > > > > > , " hari " <harimalla@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Harishkumar ji, > > > > The intention of PNB may be correct as far as our calenar has gone out of tract. But taking the sayan system is not a vedic suggestion, it is the Gregorian suggestion. The vedic suggestion would be to maintain the nirayan saytem and yet reform our calendar the vedic way. > > > > This can easily be done by shifting our time frame by one whole month, so that our present Chaitra becoems the new Vaisakh or the present Meen sankranti becomes the new epochal Mesh sankranti. By this way the calendar is both reformed and the current nirayan system remains as it is. This method is the coordination of the concepts of two stalwarts of the nieteeth century- Bala ganagdhar Tilak and Shakar BK Dikshit. > > > > This is the best way to reform our calendar. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Hari Malla > > > > , " Harry " <harishkumar09@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Have the members of this group gone through the works of Patrizia Norelli Bachelet(PNB) and her views on astrology ? She advocates the Sayana Tropical Zodiac as the correct system. She traces the problems of India to a faulty calender and states rectification of it will make us perceive the Cosmic Harmonies which will bring forth the Satya Yuga the Age of Truth. What has been lost is the perfect measure of Time which needs to be retrieved. A resetting of the cosmic clock is necessary according to her for us to See the Truth. > > > > > > > > > > Clearly,its obvious to a child that Makara Sankranti should be celebrated on 21 December on Winter Solstice day,the shortest day of the year. But the current Nirayana system celebrates it 23 days later. > > > > > > > > > > I give below a few useful links : > > > > > > > > > > www.aeongroup. com > > > > > > > > > > www.patrizianorelli bachelet. com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2009 Report Share Posted November 21, 2009 Shri Harimallaji, 1) Uttarayana means the period of six month of the northern course of the Sun. The Makar Sankranti is observed in Uttarayana even now though the start of the Uttarayana is before the Makar sankranti. During the period of Vedanga Jyotisha the Uttarayana started in the first haif of the Dhanistha Nakshatra ie. it occurred in the end of the Makar Rashi. Thus at that time the Makar Sankramana occurred before the start of the Uttarayana. Once explained a school boy will understand this and I hope this will not be difficult for you to understand. 2) We don't have to shift anything. We have only to recognise what is what. Now the Uttarayana starts when the Sun is in the Dhanu Rashi, ie. before the Makar Sankranti. In Varahamihira's time the Uttarayana started in the beginning of the Makar Rashi. Ask any astronomer and he will confirm this. Varahamihira did not have to change anything except changing the mindset of the (intellectually) blind people. 3) In the Brahmana of the Veda we find that at one time the Mahashivaratri fell on the start of the Uttarayana, ie. on the first day of the seasonal month of Tapas (and the astronomers will tell you that this time period was in the third millennium BCE). These days it does not fall on the day of the start of Uttarayana. Ask the schoolboy (whom if you explain the above concept of Uttarayana) and he will tell you that in the Vedic reference the calendar followed for the Mahashivaratri was the Sidereal calendar and not the Seasonal calendar. Darshaneyji, in spite of his good intentions prposed that in 2010 it should be celebrated in 12 tapasya, which defies all logic. It is neither according the Seasonal calendar nor according to the Sidereal calendar. If he strictly follows the Seasonal calendar then he should ask people to celebrate the Mahashivaratri on the Winter solstice day by quoting the precedence in the Veda. Hope this will not be difficult for you to undertand this. You profess to be so knowledgeable so are you pretending not to understand all these? If so please do not pretend and do not continue this unnnecessary mails so that the Jyotishis do not get disturbed in their main task of jyotish-discussions. I hope you do not like to make unsubstantiated statements like Shri Kaul, who short-sightaedy does all that just trying to win an argument. Sincerely, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya --- On Sat, 11/21/09, hari <harimalla wrote: hari <harimalla Re: The Views of Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet Saturday, November 21, 2009, 12:35 AM  Dear Bhatachryaji, Can you please explain what is meant by 'utttayan occurs when sun is in dhanistha or sun is in makar sanrkanti' at different times of our history.If they could be separated what was the necessity to shift the nirayan utttaryan from sun in dhanistha to sun in makar sankranti. If acoording to you indepeendant existaence of the two was OK, we could have as well continued with sun in dhanistha position of uttrayan even today. Why do you think they shifted it to makar sankranti as mentioned by Barhamihir.What was the need if your independant theory of sayan and nirayan was acceptable. Please note that nowadays Shiva ratri is not linked with winter solstice at all.That may have been an old concept which has no bearing today. At present Shivaratri is at the mid point between winter solstice,which is Poush purnima(designated by start of maagha snana) and spring equinox which is Chaitra purnima (designated by Vaisakh snana). If you think coupling of the sayan and the nirayan concepts are not needed then please explain why Vedanga jyotish had to coordinate the sun in dhanistha position, uttarayan and also maagha sukla pratipada together into one by thesixth sloka.Thus to be Vedic we have to coordinate sayan sankranti, nirayan sankranti and the lunar tithi together.Thanks. Hari Malla , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote: > > Dear friends, > > Everybody connected with calendar seems to avoid the Mahashivaratri issue. This year in February 2009 we observed the Mahashivaratri two months after the Winter Solstice in December 2008, whereas in the Kaushitaki Brahman the Shivaratri coincided with the Winter solstice. This is a clear case of ignoring the Sayana calendar for observing one of the most important festival of the Hindus. If one respects the Vedas and the Vedic calendar then any proposedcalendar should be able to explain the growing distance between the date of the Winter Solstice and the date of the Mahashivararti. Friends, who are genuinely interested in Vidic Calendar please wake up and look at the case mentioned, which will tell you that the Sayana and the Nirayana Calendars can coexist side by side without interfering with each other. Approximately every 25,800 years the the angular difference between the Sayana and the Nirayana positions will be repeated. No compromise of any > sort will be required in Vedic calendar. A time will come when the Mahashivaratri will again coincide with the Winter Solstice. Of course you and me may not be there to see that happen. > > Regards, > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > --- On Fri, 11/20/09, hari <harimalla@. ..> wrote: > > hari <harimalla@. ..> > Re: The Views of Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet > > Friday, November 20, 2009, 7:36 PM > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > Dear Harry, > > Kindly confirm if the vedic correlationship I have drawn is satisfactory to you or not. Step by step we should proceed to arrive at the correct way of reforming our vedic calendar. This correction is of dire necessity now, since our populace are celebrating the festivals on wrong days,say lagging one month behind the schedule. > > The lunar dates are controlled by the sidereal sankrantis as you must be well knowing. But for them to get the actual seasonal value these same tithis must also touch the sayan dates. For example, during the sidhanta jyotish period,poush purnima was the uttaryan tithi which is the celebrations dates even today, and during the vedanga jyotiish period maagha sukla pratipada was the uttaryan tithi. Although they were related to the makar sankanti and the sun in dhanistha positions respectively, both of which are nirayan dates, they also touched the sayan uttarayan dates and got the true tropical values as well in a coordinated manner during the repective epochs. > > But now since poush purnima does not touch the actual uttrayan date, this makes it necesssary to correct our vedic calendar again as was done before, as mentioned by Brahmihir in his Brihad samhita.He has said 'In the old scriptures it is mentioned that uttarayan occurs when the sun was in dhanistha nakshyatra, because it was true those days. But now uttrayan occurs when the sun is in makar sankranti, which can be verified practically. ' Thus by shifting the sidereal uttarayan to makar sankranti and the uttarayan tithi to poush purnima, which is evident by the shift of maagha snana,the coordination of the tropical uttaryan date and the sidereal utrarayan date by the respective tithi was maintained after reformation those days, say less than two thousand years ago. > > Should we also not do the reformation in the same way, to satisfy the vedic coordination clause specified by the sixth sloka of yajur vedang jyotish is my question. > > Please give your valuable suggestion. Thank you, > > Regards > > Hari Malla > > > > , " Harry " <harishkumar09@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Hari Malla, > > > It is the Sayana system that is truly Vedic and thats exactly what the Rishi's used. The Nirayana system is non-vedic. Its not based on proper understanding of the Vedic Sacrifice. Sri Aurobindo came to give the correct interpretation of the Veda. And in the Aurobindo Ashram and also in Auroville only Sayana system is used. Only the tropical zodiac is the correct system. > > > > > > Regards, > > > Harish Kumar. > > > > > > , " hari " <harimalla@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Harishkumar ji, > > > > The intention of PNB may be correct as far as our calenar has gone out of tract. But taking the sayan system is not a vedic suggestion, it is the Gregorian suggestion. The vedic suggestion would be to maintain the nirayan saytem and yet reform our calendar the vedic way. > > > > This can easily be done by shifting our time frame by one whole month, so that our present Chaitra becoems the new Vaisakh or the present Meen sankranti becomes the new epochal Mesh sankranti. By this way the calendar is both reformed and the current nirayan system remains as it is. This method is the coordination of the concepts of two stalwarts of the nieteeth century- Bala ganagdhar Tilak and Shakar BK Dikshit. > > > > This is the best way to reform our calendar. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Hari Malla > > > > , " Harry " <harishkumar09@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Have the members of this group gone through the works of Patrizia Norelli Bachelet(PNB) and her views on astrology ? She advocates the Sayana Tropical Zodiac as the correct system. She traces the problems of India to a faulty calender and states rectification of it will make us perceive the Cosmic Harmonies which will bring forth the Satya Yuga the Age of Truth. What has been lost is the perfect measure of Time which needs to be retrieved. A resetting of the cosmic clock is necessary according to her for us to See the Truth. > > > > > > > > > > Clearly,its obvious to a child that Makara Sankranti should be celebrated on 21 December on Winter Solstice day,the shortest day of the year. But the current Nirayana system celebrates it 23 days later. > > > > > > > > > > I give below a few useful links : > > > > > > > > > > www.aeongroup. com > > > > > > > > > > www.patrizianorelli bachelet. com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Harry " <harishkumar09@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Hari Malla, > > > It is the Sayana system that is truly Vedic and thats exactly what the Rishi's used. The Nirayana system is non-vedic. Its not based on proper understanding of the Vedic Sacrifice. Sri Aurobindo came to give the correct interpretation of the Veda. And in the Aurobindo Ashram and also in Auroville only Sayana system is used. Only the tropical zodiac is the correct system. > > > > > > Regards, > > > Harish Kumar. > > > > > > , " hari " <harimalla@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Harishkumar ji, > > > > The intention of PNB may be correct as far as our calenar has gone out of tract. But taking the sayan system is not a vedic suggestion, it is the Gregorian suggestion. The vedic suggestion would be to maintain the nirayan saytem and yet reform our calendar the vedic way. > > > > This can easily be done by shifting our time frame by one whole month, so that our present Chaitra becoems the new Vaisakh or the present Meen sankranti becomes the new epochal Mesh sankranti. By this way the calendar is both reformed and the current nirayan system remains as it is. This method is the coordination of the concepts of two stalwarts of the nieteeth century- Bala ganagdhar Tilak and Shakar BK Dikshit. > > > > This is the best way to reform our calendar. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Hari Malla > > > > , " Harry " <harishkumar09@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Have the members of this group gone through the works of Patrizia Norelli Bachelet(PNB) and her views on astrology ? She advocates the Sayana Tropical Zodiac as the correct system. She traces the problems of India to a faulty calender and states rectification of it will make us perceive the Cosmic Harmonies which will bring forth the Satya Yuga the Age of Truth. What has been lost is the perfect measure of Time which needs to be retrieved. A resetting of the cosmic clock is necessary according to her for us to See the Truth. > > > > > > > > > > Clearly,its obvious to a child that Makara Sankranti should be celebrated on 21 December on Winter Solstice day,the shortest day of the year. But the current Nirayana system celebrates it 23 days later. > > > > > > > > > > I give below a few useful links : > > > > > > > > > > www.aeongroup. com > > > > > > > > > > www.patrizianorelli bachelet. com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2009 Report Share Posted November 22, 2009 Shri Sunil Bhattacharjyaji, Jai Shri Ram! < In the Brahmana of the Veda we find that at one time the Mahashivaratri fell on the start of the Uttarayana, ie. on the first day of the seasonal month of Tapas> You are again requested to please give the exact references, quoting the exact relevant mantras with their translation. You have already been requested several times for this information, but you are dodging the question again and again. Could it be that your memory is not serving you properly here also, just as it did not serve you in case of INSA edition of the VJ regarding the rashi mantra, that it had termed as noting but spurious or your confusing Chaukhamba edition of Yogavasishtha as Gita Press edition! <Darshaneyji, in spite of his good intentions proposed that in 2010 it should be celebrated in 12 tapasya, which defies all logic.> As per Shiva Mahapurana and Linga Purana etc., Maha Shivaratri is to be celebrated on nisheetha vyapini chaturdashi of Magha (Gauna Phallguna) Krishna paksha. Magha Shukla Paksha starts with the first New Moon after Uttarayana, and that is on January 16, 2010. Magha (Gauna Phalguna) Krishna Paksha starts on January 31, 2010. Accordingly, nisheetha vyapini chaturdashi is on 12th of February, 2010, which corresponds to 23rd of Tapasya, and not 12th of Tapasya, as erroneously (some memory problem again?!) pointed out by you! So the Tithi_patrak of Shri Darshaney Lokesh showing Mahashivaratri on February 12, 2010 is quite correct! Perhaps it may be news to you that in 2010, even Lahiri-walas (including you!) will celebrate Mahashivaratri on February 12 which is 23rd of Tapasya! Why don't you muster some courage to castigate your fellow Lahiriwalas and admonish them from celebrating Mahasivaratri after two months of Utarayana, i.e. Winter Solstice Day, when it should be celebrated according to you. Regarding precession vis-a-vis, Uttarayana, I suggest you read some books on astronomy and then only enter into discussion on such topics as otherwise it is just a wastage of time. Jai Shri Ram! A K Kaul , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya wrote: > > Shri Harimallaji, > > 1) > Uttarayana means the period of six month of the northern course of the Sun. The Makar Sankranti is observed in Uttarayana even now though the start of the Uttarayana is before the Makar sankranti. During the period of Vedanga Jyotisha the Uttarayana started in the first haif of the Dhanistha Nakshatra ie. it occurred in the end of the Makar Rashi. Thus at that time the Makar Sankramana occurred before the start of the Uttarayana. Once explained a school boy will understand this and I hope this will not be difficult for you to understand. > 2) > We don't have to shift anything. We have only to recognise what is what. Now the Uttarayana starts when the Sun is in the Dhanu Rashi, ie. before the Makar Sankranti. In Varahamihira's time the Uttarayana started in the beginning of the Makar Rashi. Ask any astronomer and he will confirm this. Varahamihira did not have to change anything except changing the mindset of the (intellectually) blind people. > 3) > In the Brahmana of the Veda we find that at one time the Mahashivaratri fell on the start of the Uttarayana, ie. on the first day of the seasonal month of Tapas (and the astronomers will tell you that this time period was in the third millennium BCE). These days it does not fall on the day of the start of Uttarayana. Ask the schoolboy (whom if you explain the above concept of Uttarayana) and he will tell you that in the Vedic reference the calendar followed for the Mahashivaratri was the Sidereal calendar and not the Seasonal calendar. Darshaneyji, in spite of his good intentions prposed that in 2010 it should be celebrated in 12 tapasya, which defies all logic. It is neither according the Seasonal calendar nor according to the Sidereal calendar. If he strictly follows the Seasonal calendar then he should ask people to celebrate the Mahashivaratri on the Winter solstice day by quoting the precedence in the Veda. Hope this will not be difficult for > you to undertand this. > > You profess to be so knowledgeable so are you pretending not to understand all these? If so please do not pretend and do not continue this unnnecessary mails so that the Jyotishis do not get disturbed in their main task of jyotish-discussions. I hope you do not like to make unsubstantiated statements like Shri Kaul, who short-sightaedy does all that just trying to win an argument. > > Sincerely, > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > --- On Sat, 11/21/09, hari <harimalla wrote: > > hari <harimalla > Re: The Views of Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet > > Saturday, November 21, 2009, 12:35 AM > > Dear Bhatachryaji, > > Can you please explain what is meant by 'utttayan occurs when sun is in dhanistha or sun is in makar sanrkanti' at different times of our history.If they could be separated what was the necessity to shift the nirayan utttaryan from sun in dhanistha to sun in makar sankranti. If acoording to you indepeendant existaence of the two was OK, we could have as well continued with sun in dhanistha position of uttrayan even today. Why do you think they shifted it to makar sankranti as mentioned by Barhamihir.What was the need if your independant theory of sayan and nirayan was acceptable. > > Please note that nowadays Shiva ratri is not linked with winter solstice at all.That may have been an old concept which has no bearing today. At present Shivaratri is at the mid point between winter solstice,which is Poush purnima(designated by start of maagha snana) and spring equinox which is Chaitra purnima (designated by Vaisakh snana). > > If you think coupling of the sayan and the nirayan concepts are not needed then please explain why Vedanga jyotish had to coordinate the sun in dhanistha position, uttarayan and also maagha sukla pratipada together into one by thesixth sloka.Thus to be Vedic we have to coordinate sayan sankranti, nirayan sankranti and the lunar tithi together.Thanks. > > Hari Malla > > > > , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote: > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2009 Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 Shri Jyotirvedji, Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya 1) The Mahashivaratri is to be observed in the month of Magha and the month Magha is Sidereal. The required data is given in the Purana in terms of the Sidereal calendar. If you want to find the date of Shivaratri in the seasonal calendar then you have to superimpose the Seasonal calendar of that year on the Sidereal calendar of that same year. Anybody with a little grey matter will understand that. 2) As regards the Kaushitaki Brahmana have patience if you could not lay hands on that till now and read it when you get it. Don't expect to be spoon-fed everytime. 3) You said  ///// " This type of a definition of lunar months is a much later development " " ///// Stop forthwith your this type of harmful anti-vedic assertions without adducing any evidence. If you have read Rig Veda, as you claim to have done, then you must have noticed that Rig Veda says that " Moon is the maker of the month " . The Lunar month is as old as the Rig Veda. 4) You tried to justify celebration of Makar Sankranti on the shortest day by mentioning the Makar Rekha and now you have miserably failed to show the mention of the " Makar Rekha' In any of the ancient texts. Don't you freel guilty? Nobody will read a single line of yours until you show where you found mention of the Makar rekha in the ancient shastras. Also stop wasting everybody's time with your unnecessary long mails, as you have been doing for a number of years. Take some lessons on precis-writing before writing any mail. Sincerely, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya --- On Mon, 11/23/09, jyotirved <jyotirved wrote: jyotirved <jyotirved The Views of Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet Cc: hinducalendar , vedic_research_institute Monday, November 23, 2009, 1:56 AM  Shri Suni Bhattacharjya ji, Jai Shri Ram! <The Kaushitaki Brahmana (19.2) clearly states that the Winter Solstice was on the Magha New-Moon> As I am unable to lay my hands on Kaushitaki Brahman right now, please quote the actual mantra with its translation, though that is what the Vedanga Jyotisha also has said in the sixth mantra, that the month of magha, Uttarayana and a new five year yuga start when they conjoin Dhanishtha star. <The seasonal month " Tapas " obviously started from that day and the Mahashivaratri also fell on the Magha NewMoon day.> There can never be any link with New Moon day which is the start of Winter Solstice and Mahashivaratri! New Moon coinciding with winter solstice is actually the start of Magha Shukla Paksha, whereas Maha Shivaratri is to be celebrated after about twenty nine days of that New Moon which coincides with the Utttarayana! As such, it is impossible that Mahashivaratri festival and Magha Shukla Pratipat will coincide! You are therefore, either quoting a wrong mantra deliberately or there is some problem with your memory here also! <The Month of Magha is related to the Magha Nakshatra.  For example, the Purnimanta Magha month ends in the Purnima on the Magha Nakshatra.> This type of a definition of lunar months is a much later development! Lunar months were named after solar months to start with, and that was happening in eleventh century India also as per Alberuni's India. If we go on following such fallacious theories, a time will come when the lunar Magha will start in Summer instead of Winter and Magha-snana will thus have to be held in summer instead of winter! <Of course the people, like me, who follow the Sidereal calendar can observe the Mahashivaratri in the fullmoon day of the sidereal month of Magha.> Anybody can celebrate any festival on any day, but that does not mean that he/she is doing it as per the shastras! And the Gita is very clear that anybody going against shastras will have neither any happiness in this world nor in paraloka! < He has not told us uptill now where he found the mention of the " Makara Rekha " in the Ancient Indian shastras.> Not only Makar rashis but all the rashis have been discussed in quite a few Puranas like the Bhagavata, the Vishnupurana, the Vishnudharmotarapur a etc. They are all much later additions/alteratio ns in those Puranas and follow invariably the definition of the Surya Sidhanta, which is so called Sayana Rashichakra. It appears you have yet to go through BVB6, Rashi5 and 1999b.docs etc., leave alone the original puranas and shastras! Regarding Rashis in the Vedanga Jyotisha, anybody who has read that work fully will have to come to that very conclusion that the Rashi mantra in the Yajusha Jyotisham is nothing but spurious since it is entirely out of context and yields completely wrong results. It has been repeated by an innumerable number of scholars that Mesha etc. rashis were non-existent in India till the time of the Surya Sidhanta by Maya the mlechha, since even in a compilation of five sidhantas as late as fifth century AD, we do not find any mention of Mesha, Vrisha etc. rashis in any other work except the Surya Sidhanta! <As regards the Precession versus Uttarayana Jyotirved should read the ancient Indian texts to see the Equinoxes and Solstices occurring in different Nakshatras at different times.> Equinoxes and Solstices were falling in different nakshatras in different periods, and this is clear from the Vedic texts! But those very Equinoxes and Solstices were inseparably combined with so called Sayana Rashis as per the Siddhantas and the Puranas! Thus the real nakshatras had absolutely nothing to do with either Pauranic or siddhantic Rashis since nirayana rashis are non-existent not only in the shastras but even scientifically. Jai Shri Ram! A K Kaul , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote: > > Dear friends. > > The Kaushitaki Brahmana (19.2) clearly states that the Winter Solstice was on the Magha New-Moon. The seasonal month " Tapas " obviously started from that day and the Mahashivaratri also fell on the Magha NewMoon day. So the people like jyotirved and Darshaney, who advocate celebration of festivals according to the Seasonal calendar has to observe the Mahashivaratri on the seasonal month of Tapas. Jyotirved is foolishly thinking the month of Magha to be a seasonal month. The argument is clear and Simple. The Month of Magha is related to the Magha Nakshatra. For example, the Purnimanta Magha month ends in the Purnima on the Magha Nakshatra. > > Of course the people, like me, who follow the Sidereal calendar can observe the Mahashivaratri in the fullmoon day of the sidereal month of Magha. > > Jyotirved is confused and may be his memory is also playing tricks with him. My memory did not fail me. It fails every time in Jyotirved only. He has not told us uptill now where he found the mention of the " Makara Rekha " in the Ancient Indian shastras. I assure Jyotirved that I shall not forget his this bluff. His convenient acceptance of some editor's personal remark that the Rashi verse in the Vedanga Jyotisha could be interpolated as the Vedavakya, speaks of his lost balance of mind. Some Tom, Dinesh (Dick) and Hatim (Harry) asserts something and that becomes the GospelTtruth for Jyotirved and the poor members of these fora receive mails from such unscrupulous people. As regards the Precession versus Uttarayana Jyotirved should read the ancient Indian texts to see the Equinoxes and Solstices occurring in different Nakshatras at different times. > > Regards > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > --- On Sun, 11/22/09, jyotirved <jyotirved@. ..> wrote: > > jyotirved <jyotirved@. ..> > [VRI] Re: The Views of Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet > > Cc: hinducalendar, vedic_research_ institute, " 'subash razdan' " > <subashrazdan@ ...> > Sunday, November 22, 2009, 12:53 AM > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shri Sunil Bhattacharjyaji, > > Jai Shri Ram! > > < In the Brahmana of the Veda we find that at one time > the Mahashivaratri fell on the start of the Uttarayana, ie. on the first day of > the seasonal month of Tapas> > > You are again requested to please give the exact references, > quoting the exact relevant mantras with their translation. You have already > been requested several times for this information, but you are dodging the > question again and again. Could it be that your memory is not serving you > properly here also, just as it did not serve you in case of INSA edition of the > VJ regarding the rashi mantra, that it had termed as noting but spurious or > your confusing Chaukhamba edition of Yogavasishtha as Gita Press edition! > >  > > <Darshaneyji, in spite of his good intentions proposed > that in 2010 it should be celebrated in 12 tapasya, which defies all logic.> > > As per Shiva Mahapurana and Linga Purana etc., Maha > Shivaratri is to be celebrated on nisheetha vyapini chaturdashi of Magha (Gauna > Phallguna) Krishna paksha. Magha Shukla Paksha starts with the first New Moon > after Uttarayana, and that is on January 16, 2010. Magha  (Gauna Phalguna) Krishna > Paksha starts on January 31, 2010. Accordingly, nisheetha vyapini chaturdashi > is on 12th of February, 2010, which corresponds to 23rd of Tapasya, and not > 12th of Tapasya, as erroneously (some memory problem again?!) pointed out by > you! So the Tithi_patrak of Shri Darshaney Lokesh  showing Mahashivaratri on > February 12, 2010 is quite correct! > >  > > Perhaps it may be news to you that in 2010, even > Lahiri-walas (including you!) will celebrate Mahashivaratri    on February 12 > which is 23rd of Tapasya! Why don't you muster some courage to castigate your > fellow Lahiriwalas and admonish them from celebrating Mahasivaratri after two > months of Utarayana, i.e. Winter Solstice Day, when it should be celebrated > according to you. > > Regarding precession vis-a-vis, Uttarayana, I suggest you > read some books on astronomy and then only enter into discussion on such topics > as otherwise it is just a wastage of time. > > Jai Shri Ram! > > A K Kaul > > , Sunil Bhattacharjya > <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote: > > >  > > > Shri Harimallaji, > > > > > > 1) > > > Uttarayana means the period of six month of the > northern course of the Sun. The Makar Sankranti is observed in Uttarayana > even now though the start of the Uttarayana is before the Makar sankranti. > During the period of Vedanga Jyotisha the Uttarayana started in the first haif > of the Dhanistha Nakshatra ie. it occurred in the end of the Makar Rashi. Thus > at that time the Makar Sankramana occurred before the start of the > Uttarayana. Once explained a school boy will understand this and I hope this > will not be difficult for you to understand. > > > 2) > > > We don't have to shift anything. We have only to > recognise what is what. Now the Uttarayana starts when the Sun is in the Dhanu > Rashi, ie. before the Makar Sankranti. In Varahamihira' s time the Uttarayana > started in the beginning of the Makar Rashi. Ask any astronomer and he will > confirm this. Varahamihira did not have to change anything except changing the > mindset of the (intellectually) blind people. > > > 3) > > > In the Brahmana of the Veda we find that at one time > the Mahashivaratri fell on the start of the Uttarayana, ie. on the first day of > the seasonal month of Tapas (and the astronomers will tell you that this time > period was in the third millennium BCE). These days it does not fall on the day > of the start of Uttarayana. Ask the schoolboy (whom if you explain the above > concept of Uttarayana) and he will tell you that in the Vedic reference the > calendar followed for the Mahashivaratri was the Sidereal calendar and not the > Seasonal calendar. Darshaneyji, in spite of his good intentions prposed that in > 2010 it should be celebrated in 12 tapasya, which defies all logic. It is > neither according the Seasonal calendar nor according to the Sidereal calendar. > If he strictly follows the Seasonal calendar then he should ask people to > celebrate the Mahashivaratri on the Winter solstice day by quoting the > precedence in the Veda. Hope this will not be difficult for > > > you to undertand this. > > > > > > You profess to be so knowledgeable so are you > pretending not to understand all these? If so please do not pretend and do not > continue this unnnecessary mails so that the Jyotishis do not get disturbed in > their main task of jyotish-discussions . I hope you do not like to make > unsubstantiated statements like Shri Kaul, who short-sightaedy does all that > just trying to win an argument. > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 11/21/09, hari <harimalla@ .> wrote: > > > > > > hari <harimalla@ .> > > > Re: The Views of Patrizia > Norelli-Bachelet > > > > > > Saturday, November 21, 2009, 12:35 AM > > > > > > Dear Bhatachryaji, > > > > > > Can you please explain what is meant by 'utttayan > occurs when sun is in dhanistha or sun is in makar sanrkanti' at different > times of our history.If they could be separated what was the necessity to shift > the nirayan utttaryan from sun in dhanistha to sun in makar sankranti. If > acoording to you indepeendant existaence of the two was OK, we could have as > well continued with sun in dhanistha position of uttrayan even today. Why do > you think they shifted it to makar sankranti as mentioned by Barhamihir.What > was the need if your independant theory of sayan and nirayan was acceptable. > > > > > > Please note that nowadays Shiva ratri is not linked > with winter solstice at all.That may have been an old concept which has no > bearing today. At present Shivaratri is at the mid point between winter > solstice,which is Poush purnima(designated by start of maagha snana) and spring > equinox which is Chaitra purnima (designated by Vaisakh snana). > > > > > > If you think coupling of the sayan and the nirayan > concepts are not needed then please explain why Vedanga jyotish had to > coordinate the sun in dhanistha position, uttarayan and also maagha sukla > pratipada together into one by thesixth sloka.Thus to be Vedic we have to > coordinate sayan sankranti, nirayan sankranti and the lunar tithi > together.Thanks. > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > , Sunil > Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote: > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 IndiaArchaeology , " Koenraad " <koenraad.elst wrote: IndiaArchaeology , Sunil Bhattacharjya sunil_bhattacharjya@ wrote: > > Uttarayana means the period of six month of the northern course of the Sun. The Makar Sankranti is observed in Uttarayana even now though the start of the Uttarayana is before the Makar sankranti. During the period of Vedanga Jyotisha the Uttarayana started in the first haif of the Dhanistha Nakshatra ie. it occurred in the end of the Makar Rashi. Thus at that time the Makar Sankramana occurred before the start of the Uttarayana. Once explained a school boy will understand this and I hope this will not be difficult for you to understand.< This amounts to slamming an open door. Jyotirved certainly knows all this. The point, hiwever, is that there is nothing important or worth celebrating about the entry of the sun into Makara, an event perfectly unnoticed by any except the most expert and focused observers on earth. By contrast, the Uttarayana day/Solstice is truly special, a consequential event for the life processes on earth, and directly observable from the place on the SE horizon where the sun rises. Makar Sankranti is totally unimportant when falling before (as in Lagadha's day) or after (as now) the Solstice, and when coindicing with the Solstice, it is still only the Solstice that confers some temporary importance on it. > In the Brahmana of the Veda we find that at one time the Mahashivaratri fell on the start of the Uttarayana, ie. on the first day of the seasonal month of Tapas (and the astronomers will tell you that this time period was in the third millennium BCE). These days it does not fall on the day of the start of Uttarayana. Ask the schoolboy (whom if you explain the above concept of Uttarayana) and he will tell you that in the Vedic reference the calendar followed for the Mahashivaratri was the Sidereal calendar and not the Seasonal calendar.< This deserves closer study. Was there a continuous use of the Shivaratri festival? Likely but not certain. Religious history is full of revivals, revivifications of long-dead rituamls or beliefs. Someone may have picked it up from an old text and erestarted performing it. The Brahmana may well have fixed the Solstice night, which had been a natural festival for ages, and given sidereal directions for it, ignorant of the changing nature of the reference to the so-called " fixed " stars. Next, the Hindus scripture-worshipping Hindus started ignoring the natural basis of the festival and observing the stellar instructions instead. Those is would then be a prefiguratyion fo what happened in the Puranic age, when tropical data were confused with sidereal ones. > Darshaneyji, in spite of his good intentions prposed that in 2010 it should be celebrated in 12 tapasya, which defies all logic. It is neither according the Seasonal calendar nor according to the Sidereal calendar. If he strictly follows the Seasonal calendar then he should ask people to celebrate the Mahashivaratri on the Winter solstice day by quoting the precedence in the Veda. Hope this will not be difficult for > you to undertand this. > Indeed, return to the common roots of all cosmic religions and celebrate the real Solstice, not its sidereal derivate. Regards, KE --- End forwarded message --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 Dear Bhattacharyaji and RAjji, Let us please discuss this issue jointly.I find it difficult to explain what I mean to Bhattacharyaji.Thus I request shree RAjji also to join us here. I had said in my previous mail as follows: <Can you please explain what is meant by 'utttayan occurs when sun is in dhanistha or sun is in makar sanrkanti' at different times of our history.If they could be separated what was the necessity to shift the nirayan utttaryan from sun in dhanistha to sun in makar sankranti. If acoording to you indepeendant existaence of the two was OK, we could have as well continued with sun in dhanistha position of uttrayan even today. Why do you think they shifted it to makar sankranti as mentioned by Barhamihir.> Let me further clarify my own statement.My intention ws that Barahmihir has mentioned in his Brihad Samhita, chapter Adityacharadhyaya that in the olden days uttaryan occurred in dhanistha because it was true those days, but by his time uttaryan had come to makar sankranti. Sinc we are using makar sankranti even now as the 'nirayan' uttarayan,he did shift the nirayan uttarayan of vedanga jyotish,ie 'sun in dhannitatha' to the nirayan uttarayan as 'makar sankranti' which is continued even till this day. But shri Bhattacharyaji has replied thus: <We don't have to shift anything. We have only to recognise what is what. Now the Uttarayana starts when the Sun is in the Dhanu Rashi, ie. before the Makar Sankranti. In Varahamihira's time the Uttarayana started in the beginning of the Makar Rashi. Ask any astronomer and he will confirm this. Varahamihira did not have to change anything except changing the mindset of the (intellectually) blind people.> Now my intention is that Barahmihir did not only change the mind set of the blind people, but he shifted the nirayan uttarayan from the 'sun in dhaninstha'position to the 'sun in makar sankranti'position. Shri Rajji, Please give your opinion if I am right or not. Regards, Hari Malla , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya wrote: > > Shri Harimallaji, > > 1) > Uttarayana means the period of six month of the northern course of the Sun. The Makar Sankranti is observed in Uttarayana even now though the start of the Uttarayana is before the Makar sankranti. During the period of Vedanga Jyotisha the Uttarayana started in the first haif of the Dhanistha Nakshatra ie. it occurred in the end of the Makar Rashi. Thus at that time the Makar Sankramana occurred before the start of the Uttarayana. Once explained a school boy will understand this and I hope this will not be difficult for you to understand. > 2) > We don't have to shift anything. We have only to recognise what is what. Now the Uttarayana starts when the Sun is in the Dhanu Rashi, ie. before the Makar Sankranti. In Varahamihira's time the Uttarayana started in the beginning of the Makar Rashi. Ask any astronomer and he will confirm this. Varahamihira did not have to change anything except changing the mindset of the (intellectually) blind people. > 3) > In the Brahmana of the Veda we find that at one time the Mahashivaratri fell on the start of the Uttarayana, ie. on the first day of the seasonal month of Tapas (and the astronomers will tell you that this time period was in the third millennium BCE). These days it does not fall on the day of the start of Uttarayana. Ask the schoolboy (whom if you explain the above concept of Uttarayana) and he will tell you that in the Vedic reference the calendar followed for the Mahashivaratri was the Sidereal calendar and not the Seasonal calendar. Darshaneyji, in spite of his good intentions prposed that in 2010 it should be celebrated in 12 tapasya, which defies all logic. It is neither according the Seasonal calendar nor according to the Sidereal calendar. If he strictly follows the Seasonal calendar then he should ask people to celebrate the Mahashivaratri on the Winter solstice day by quoting the precedence in the Veda. Hope this will not be difficult for > you to undertand this. > > You profess to be so knowledgeable so are you pretending not to understand all these? If so please do not pretend and do not continue this unnnecessary mails so that the Jyotishis do not get disturbed in their main task of jyotish-discussions. I hope you do not like to make unsubstantiated statements like Shri Kaul, who short-sightaedy does all that just trying to win an argument. > > Sincerely, > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > --- On Sat, 11/21/09, hari <harimalla wrote: > > hari <harimalla > Re: The Views of Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet > > Saturday, November 21, 2009, 12:35 AM >  > > > Dear Bhatachryaji, > > Can you please explain what is meant by 'utttayan occurs when sun is in dhanistha or sun is in makar sanrkanti' at different times of our history.If they could be separated what was the necessity to shift the nirayan utttaryan from sun in dhanistha to sun in makar sankranti. If acoording to you indepeendant existaence of the two was OK, we could have as well continued with sun in dhanistha position of uttrayan even today. Why do you think they shifted it to makar sankranti as mentioned by Barhamihir.What was the need if your independant theory of sayan and nirayan was acceptable. > > Please note that nowadays Shiva ratri is not linked with winter solstice at all.That may have been an old concept which has no bearing today. At present Shivaratri is at the mid point between winter solstice,which is Poush purnima(designated by start of maagha snana) and spring equinox which is Chaitra purnima (designated by Vaisakh snana). > > If you think coupling of the sayan and the nirayan concepts are not needed then please explain why Vedanga jyotish had to coordinate the sun in dhanistha position, uttarayan and also maagha sukla pratipada together into one by thesixth sloka.Thus to be Vedic we have to coordinate sayan sankranti, nirayan sankranti and the lunar tithi together.Thanks. > > Hari Malla > > > > , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote: > > > > > > Dear friends, > > > > > > Everybody connected with calendar seems to avoid the Mahashivaratri issue. This year in February 2009 we observed the Mahashivaratri two months after the Winter Solstice in December 2008, whereas in the Kaushitaki Brahman the Shivaratri coincided with the Winter solstice. This is a clear case of ignoring the Sayana calendar for observing one of the most important festival of the Hindus. If one respects the Vedas and the Vedic calendar then any proposedcalendar should be able to explain the growing distance between the date of the Winter Solstice and the date of the Mahashivararti. Friends, who are genuinely interested in Vidic Calendar please wake up and look at the case mentioned, which will tell you that the Sayana and the Nirayana Calendars can coexist side by side without interfering with each other. Approximately every 25,800 years the the angular difference between the Sayana and the Nirayana positions will be repeated. No compromise of any > > > sort will be required in Vedic calendar. A time will come when the Mahashivaratri will again coincide with the Winter Solstice. Of course you and me may not be there to see that happen. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > --- On Fri, 11/20/09, hari <harimalla@ ..> wrote: > > > > > > hari <harimalla@ ..> > > > Re: The Views of Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet > > > > > > Friday, November 20, 2009, 7:36 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Harry, > > > > > > Kindly confirm if the vedic correlationship I have drawn is satisfactory to you or not. Step by step we should proceed to arrive at the correct way of reforming our vedic calendar. This correction is of dire necessity now, since our populace are celebrating the festivals on wrong days,say lagging one month behind the schedule. > > > > > > The lunar dates are controlled by the sidereal sankrantis as you must be well knowing. But for them to get the actual seasonal value these same tithis must also touch the sayan dates. For example, during the sidhanta jyotish period,poush purnima was the uttaryan tithi which is the celebrations dates even today, and during the vedanga jyotiish period maagha sukla pratipada was the uttaryan tithi. Although they were related to the makar sankanti and the sun in dhanistha positions respectively, both of which are nirayan dates, they also touched the sayan uttarayan dates and got the true tropical values as well in a coordinated manner during the repective epochs. > > > > > > But now since poush purnima does not touch the actual uttrayan date, this makes it necesssary to correct our vedic calendar again as was done before, as mentioned by Brahmihir in his Brihad samhita.He has said 'In the old scriptures it is mentioned that uttarayan occurs when the sun was in dhanistha nakshyatra, because it was true those days. But now uttrayan occurs when the sun is in makar sankranti, which can be verified practically. ' Thus by shifting the sidereal uttarayan to makar sankranti and the uttarayan tithi to poush purnima, which is evident by the shift of maagha snana,the coordination of the tropical uttaryan date and the sidereal utrarayan date by the respective tithi was maintained after reformation those days, say less than two thousand years ago. > > > > > > Should we also not do the reformation in the same way, to satisfy the vedic coordination clause specified by the sixth sloka of yajur vedang jyotish is my question. > > > > > > Please give your valuable suggestion. Thank you, > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Harry " <harishkumar09@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Hari Malla, > > > > > > > It is the Sayana system that is truly Vedic and thats exactly what the Rishi's used. The Nirayana system is non-vedic. Its not based on proper understanding of the Vedic Sacrifice. Sri Aurobindo came to give the correct interpretation of the Veda. And in the Aurobindo Ashram and also in Auroville only Sayana system is used. Only the tropical zodiac is the correct system. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > Harish Kumar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " hari " <harimalla@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Harishkumar ji, > > > > > > > > The intention of PNB may be correct as far as our calenar has gone out of tract. But taking the sayan system is not a vedic suggestion, it is the Gregorian suggestion. The vedic suggestion would be to maintain the nirayan saytem and yet reform our calendar the vedic way. > > > > > > > > This can easily be done by shifting our time frame by one whole month, so that our present Chaitra becoems the new Vaisakh or the present Meen sankranti becomes the new epochal Mesh sankranti. By this way the calendar is both reformed and the current nirayan system remains as it is. This method is the coordination of the concepts of two stalwarts of the nieteeth century- Bala ganagdhar Tilak and Shakar BK Dikshit. > > > > > > > > This is the best way to reform our calendar. > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > , " Harry " <harishkumar09@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Have the members of this group gone through the works of Patrizia Norelli Bachelet(PNB) and her views on astrology ? She advocates the Sayana Tropical Zodiac as the correct system. She traces the problems of India to a faulty calender and states rectification of it will make us perceive the Cosmic Harmonies which will bring forth the Satya Yuga the Age of Truth. What has been lost is the perfect measure of Time which needs to be retrieved. A resetting of the cosmic clock is necessary according to her for us to See the Truth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Clearly,its obvious to a child that Makara Sankranti should be celebrated on 21 December on Winter Solstice day,the shortest day of the year. But the current Nirayana system celebrates it 23 days later. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I give below a few useful links : > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > www.aeongroup. com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > www.patrizianorelli bachelet. com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Harry " <harishkumar09@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Hari Malla, > > > > > > > It is the Sayana system that is truly Vedic and thats exactly what the Rishi's used. The Nirayana system is non-vedic. Its not based on proper understanding of the Vedic Sacrifice. Sri Aurobindo came to give the correct interpretation of the Veda. And in the Aurobindo Ashram and also in Auroville only Sayana system is used. Only the tropical zodiac is the correct system. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > Harish Kumar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " hari " <harimalla@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Harishkumar ji, > > > > > > > > The intention of PNB may be correct as far as our calenar has gone out of tract. But taking the sayan system is not a vedic suggestion, it is the Gregorian suggestion. The vedic suggestion would be to maintain the nirayan saytem and yet reform our calendar the vedic way. > > > > > > > > This can easily be done by shifting our time frame by one whole month, so that our present Chaitra becoems the new Vaisakh or the present Meen sankranti becomes the new epochal Mesh sankranti. By this way the calendar is both reformed and the current nirayan system remains as it is. This method is the coordination of the concepts of two stalwarts of the nieteeth century- Bala ganagdhar Tilak and Shakar BK Dikshit. > > > > > > > > This is the best way to reform our calendar. > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > , " Harry " <harishkumar09@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Have the members of this group gone through the works of Patrizia Norelli Bachelet(PNB) and her views on astrology ? She advocates the Sayana Tropical Zodiac as the correct system. She traces the problems of India to a faulty calender and states rectification of it will make us perceive the Cosmic Harmonies which will bring forth the Satya Yuga the Age of Truth. What has been lost is the perfect measure of Time which needs to be retrieved. A resetting of the cosmic clock is necessary according to her for us to See the Truth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Clearly,its obvious to a child that Makara Sankranti should be celebrated on 21 December on Winter Solstice day,the shortest day of the year. But the current Nirayana system celebrates it 23 days later. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I give below a few useful links : > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > www.aeongroup. com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > www.patrizianorelli bachelet. com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2009 Report Share Posted November 28, 2009 Shri Sunil Bhattacharjyaji, Jai Shri Ram! <The Mahashivaratri is to be observed in the month of Magha and the month Magha is Sidereal. The required data is given in the Purana in terms of the Sidereal calendar.> I have already clarified it several times that there was no so called sidereal or tropical calendar as per the puranas! The Puranas copied definition of all the Rashis from the Surya Sidhanta without changing a whit! And the definition of Mesha etc. Rashis as per the Surya Sidhanta is nothing but so called sayana! Puranas also appended lunar months like Chaitra, Vaishakha etc. to those very Sayana months. Why don't you take some trouble and go through the documents like B VB6, 1999b, Rashi5 etc. which are in the files section. Or is it that you have already gone through them and still insist on the so called nirayana, which you call sidereal rashis, in the Puranas and siddhantas also in spite of the fact that those rashis are sayana? There is also Alberuni’s India document in the files section. Pl. go through it and you will see that in eleventh century India also only so called sayana rashis were used for not only celebrating festivals but even phalita jyotisha! Even Ashvini, Bharni nakshatras were clubbed with those sayana rashis in eleventh century India! < As regards the Kaushitaki Brahmana have patience if you could not lay hands on that till now and read it when you get it. Don't expect to be spoon-fed everytime. > The norms of a debate are that you have to substantiate your premise with proofs and not ask the other party to look for the proofs himself. To the best of my knowledge, there is no mantra in Kaushitaki Brahmana which states that Mahashivaratri is to be celebrated on the day of Winter Solstice, and unless you quote the original mantra with translation, I will stand by my contention. <Stop forthwith your this type of harmful anti-vedic assertions without adducing any evidence. If you have read Rig Veda, as you claim to have done, then you must have noticed that Rig Veda says that " Moon is the maker of the month " . The Lunar month is as old as the Rig Veda>. Yes, when the “moon enters/joins/lives with the sun†it is known as Amavasya†as per the Vedas. And as per the Vedanga Jyotisham also, a new lunar months starts with New Moon. But where has it been said in the Rigveda or any other Veda or the Vedanga Jyotisha etc. that the lunar month Chaitra is Chaitra only because the Full Moon after fifteen days of the start of that month will be in an imaginary equal twenty-seventh division known as Chitra of a still more imaginary circle called zodiac? Unless and until you substantiate your arguments with proofs citing the original Vedic mantras with their translations that Chaitra is Chaitra only because the Full Moon after fifteen days of the start of that month is in Chitra, your statement has absolutely no value. Then again, you have to tell the forum members as to what you mean by Chitra nakshtra, i.e. whether it is supposed to be subsumed in a so called nirayana rashi or a so called sayana rashi? If it is the latter, what ayanamsha should we choose and why? What is the support of the Vedic mantras to justify your arguments? As already pointed out, even in eleventh century India, twenty-seven equal nakshatra division were being linked to sayana rashis. So do you mean to say that in the Vedic period also they decided the nomenclature of lunar months by dint of linking Krittika etc. nakshatras, which you call sidereal, to sayana rashis? Pl. clarify your stand in unambiguous terms. <You tried to justify celebration of Makar Sankranti on the shortest day by mentioning the Makar Rekha and now you have miserably failed to show the mention of the " Makar Rekha' In any of the ancient texts> You have a very bad habit of ascribing such statements to others as were never made by them. As clarified already, how can you expect to find Makar Rekha in any shastra if the term Makar Sankranti itself is an import via Surya Sidhanta from a country other than India? Makar Rekha is a “tatsam†equivalent of “Tropic of Capricorn†which you can find described in detail in Primary level geography books. < Nobody will read a single line of yours until you show where you found mention of the Makar rekha in the ancient shastras.> If wishes were horse beggars would ride them! Jai Shri Ram! A K Kaul IndiaArchaeology , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya wrote: > > Shri Jyotirvedji, > > Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya > > 1) > The Mahashivaratri is to be observed in the month of Magha and the month Magha is Sidereal. The required data is given in the Purana in terms of the Sidereal calendar. If you want to find the date of Shivaratri in the seasonal calendar then you have to superimpose the Seasonal calendar of that year on the Sidereal calendar of that same year. Anybody with a little grey matter will understand that. > 2) > As regards the Kaushitaki Brahmana have patience if you could not lay hands on that till now and read it when you get it. Don't expect to be spoon-fed everytime. > 3) > You said  ///// " This type of a definition of lunar months is a much later development " " ///// > > Stop forthwith your this type of harmful anti-vedic assertions without adducing any evidence. If you have read Rig Veda, as you claim to have done, then you must have noticed that Rig Veda says that " Moon is the maker of the month " . The Lunar month is as old as the Rig Veda. > 4) > You tried to justify celebration of Makar Sankranti on the shortest day by mentioning the Makar Rekha and now you have miserably failed to show the mention of the " Makar Rekha' In any of the ancient texts. Don't you freel guilty? Nobody will read a single line of yours until you show where you found mention of the Makar rekha in the ancient shastras. Also stop wasting everybody's time with your unnecessary long mails, as you have been doing for a number of years. Take some lessons on precis-writing before writing any mail. > > Sincerely, > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > --- On Mon, 11/23/09, jyotirved jyotirved wrote: > > jyotirved jyotirved > The Views of Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet > > Cc: hinducalendar , vedic_research_institute > Monday, November 23, 2009, 1:56 AM > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2009 Report Share Posted November 28, 2009 Dear friends, 1) Shri Harimalla himself admitted as follows: Let me further clarify my own statement.My intention ws that Barahmihir has mentioned in his Brihad Samhita, chapter Adityacharadhyaya that in the olden days uttaryan occurred in dhanistha because it was true those days, but by his time uttaryan had come to makar sankranti. We are celebrating the Makar Sankranti when the Sun enters the Makar Rashi and that is unrelated to the Uttarayana. The Makar Sankranti now falls within the six-month period of Uttarayana starting from the Dhanu Rashi. But does he know that in the Mahabharata times the Sun entered the Makar Rashi in the Dakshinayana (ie. then the Makara Sankranti was in the Daksjinayana) and not in the Uttarayana? Any astronomer will tell him that. There is nothing like Nirayana uttarayana. In Vedanga Jyotisha it was not called Nirayana uttarayana. In the time of the composition of the the Vedanga jyotisha it occurred in the Nirayana Magha month and at that time it was the first seasonal month of the Sishir ritu, ie. the Tapas as Tapas always starts from the Uttarayana. 2) He also said Now my intention is that Barahmihir did not only change the mind set of the blind people, but he shifted the nirayan uttarayan from the 'sun in dhaninstha'position to the 'sun in makar sankranti'position. Shri Rajji, Please give your opinion if I am right or not. I repeat that Varahamihira did not change anything. The start of Uttarayana shifted due to the Precession of the earth and not due to Varahamihira and Varahamihira accepted that phenomenon gracefully. He did not want any credit or discredit that he had changed it. When the Winter Solstice occurred in his time he observed the position of the nakshatras in the sky and he knew that the Sun was not in the Dhanistha nakshatra but in the early part of the Makar rashi. In the ancient times the Jyotishis observed the night sky with their naked eye. Why to speak of the ancient times, even in the nineteenth century there were Jyotishis who observed the night sky for the position of the Grahas and the Nakshatras. Varahamihira simply acknowledged the effects of the precession of the earth. I think it is beyond Shri Harimalla's comprehension so he should leave it at that. Why should he rake his grey matter if he is finding it difficult to understand. Regards, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya --- On Fri, 11/27/09, hari <harimalla wrote: hari <harimalla Re: The Views of Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet To: Friday, November 27, 2009, 8:03 AM  Dear Bhattacharyaji and RAjji, Let us please discuss this issue jointly.I find it difficult to explain what I mean to Bhattacharyaji. Thus I request shree RAjji also to join us here. I had said in my previous mail as follows: <Can you please explain what is meant by 'utttayan occurs when sun is in dhanistha or sun is in makar sanrkanti' at different times of our history.If they could be separated what was the necessity to shift the nirayan utttaryan from sun in dhanistha to sun in makar sankranti. If acoording to you indepeendant existaence of the two was OK, we could have as well continued with sun in dhanistha position of uttrayan even today. Why do you think they shifted it to makar sankranti as mentioned by Barhamihir.> Let me further clarify my own statement.My intention ws that Barahmihir has mentioned in his Brihad Samhita, chapter Adityacharadhyaya that in the olden days uttaryan occurred in dhanistha because it was true those days, but by his time uttaryan had come to makar sankranti. Sinc we are using makar sankranti even now as the 'nirayan' uttarayan,he did shift the nirayan uttarayan of vedanga jyotish,ie 'sun in dhannitatha' to the nirayan uttarayan as 'makar sankranti' which is continued even till this day. But shri Bhattacharyaji has replied thus: <We don't have to shift anything. We have only to recognise what is what. Now the Uttarayana starts when the Sun is in the Dhanu Rashi, ie. before the Makar Sankranti. In Varahamihira' s time the Uttarayana started in the beginning of the Makar Rashi. Ask any astronomer and he will confirm this. Varahamihira did not have to change anything except changing the mindset of the (intellectually) blind people.> Now my intention is that Barahmihir did not only change the mind set of the blind people, but he shifted the nirayan uttarayan from the 'sun in dhaninstha'position to the 'sun in makar sankranti'position. Shri Rajji, Please give your opinion if I am right or not. Regards, Hari Malla , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote: > > Shri Harimallaji, > > 1) > Uttarayana means the period of six month of the northern course of the Sun. The Makar Sankranti is observed in Uttarayana even now though the start of the Uttarayana is before the Makar sankranti. During the period of Vedanga Jyotisha the Uttarayana started in the first haif of the Dhanistha Nakshatra ie. it occurred in the end of the Makar Rashi. Thus at that time the Makar Sankramana occurred before the start of the Uttarayana. Once explained a school boy will understand this and I hope this will not be difficult for you to understand. > 2) > We don't have to shift anything. We have only to recognise what is what. Now the Uttarayana starts when the Sun is in the Dhanu Rashi, ie. before the Makar Sankranti. In Varahamihira' s time the Uttarayana started in the beginning of the Makar Rashi. Ask any astronomer and he will confirm this. Varahamihira did not have to change anything except changing the mindset of the (intellectually) blind people. > 3) > In the Brahmana of the Veda we find that at one time the Mahashivaratri fell on the start of the Uttarayana, ie. on the first day of the seasonal month of Tapas (and the astronomers will tell you that this time period was in the third millennium BCE). These days it does not fall on the day of the start of Uttarayana. Ask the schoolboy (whom if you explain the above concept of Uttarayana) and he will tell you that in the Vedic reference the calendar followed for the Mahashivaratri was the Sidereal calendar and not the Seasonal calendar. Darshaneyji, in spite of his good intentions prposed that in 2010 it should be celebrated in 12 tapasya, which defies all logic. It is neither according the Seasonal calendar nor according to the Sidereal calendar. If he strictly follows the Seasonal calendar then he should ask people to celebrate the Mahashivaratri on the Winter solstice day by quoting the precedence in the Veda. Hope this will not be difficult for > you to undertand this. > > You profess to be so knowledgeable so are you pretending not to understand all these? If so please do not pretend and do not continue this unnnecessary mails so that the Jyotishis do not get disturbed in their main task of jyotish-discussions . I hope you do not like to make unsubstantiated statements like Shri Kaul, who short-sightaedy does all that just trying to win an argument. > > Sincerely, > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > --- On Sat, 11/21/09, hari <harimalla@. ..> wrote: > > hari <harimalla@. ..> > Re: The Views of Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet > > Saturday, November 21, 2009, 12:35 AM > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > Dear Bhatachryaji, > > Can you please explain what is meant by 'utttayan occurs when sun is in dhanistha or sun is in makar sanrkanti' at different times of our history.If they could be separated what was the necessity to shift the nirayan utttaryan from sun in dhanistha to sun in makar sankranti. If acoording to you indepeendant existaence of the two was OK, we could have as well continued with sun in dhanistha position of uttrayan even today. Why do you think they shifted it to makar sankranti as mentioned by Barhamihir.What was the need if your independant theory of sayan and nirayan was acceptable. > > Please note that nowadays Shiva ratri is not linked with winter solstice at all.That may have been an old concept which has no bearing today. At present Shivaratri is at the mid point between winter solstice,which is Poush purnima(designated by start of maagha snana) and spring equinox which is Chaitra purnima (designated by Vaisakh snana). > > If you think coupling of the sayan and the nirayan concepts are not needed then please explain why Vedanga jyotish had to coordinate the sun in dhanistha position, uttarayan and also maagha sukla pratipada together into one by thesixth sloka.Thus to be Vedic we have to coordinate sayan sankranti, nirayan sankranti and the lunar tithi together.Thanks. > > Hari Malla > > > > , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote: > > > > > > Dear friends, > > > > > > Everybody connected with calendar seems to avoid the Mahashivaratri issue. This year in February 2009 we observed the Mahashivaratri two months after the Winter Solstice in December 2008, whereas in the Kaushitaki Brahman the Shivaratri coincided with the Winter solstice. This is a clear case of ignoring the Sayana calendar for observing one of the most important festival of the Hindus. If one respects the Vedas and the Vedic calendar then any proposedcalendar should be able to explain the growing distance between the date of the Winter Solstice and the date of the Mahashivararti. Friends, who are genuinely interested in Vidic Calendar please wake up and look at the case mentioned, which will tell you that the Sayana and the Nirayana Calendars can coexist side by side without interfering with each other. Approximately every 25,800 years the the angular difference between the Sayana and the Nirayana positions will be repeated. No compromise of any > > > sort will be required in Vedic calendar. A time will come when the Mahashivaratri will again coincide with the Winter Solstice. Of course you and me may not be there to see that happen. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > --- On Fri, 11/20/09, hari <harimalla@ ..> wrote: > > > > > > hari <harimalla@ ..> > > > Re: The Views of Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet > > > > > > Friday, November 20, 2009, 7:36 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Harry, > > > > > > Kindly confirm if the vedic correlationship I have drawn is satisfactory to you or not. Step by step we should proceed to arrive at the correct way of reforming our vedic calendar. This correction is of dire necessity now, since our populace are celebrating the festivals on wrong days,say lagging one month behind the schedule. > > > > > > The lunar dates are controlled by the sidereal sankrantis as you must be well knowing. But for them to get the actual seasonal value these same tithis must also touch the sayan dates. For example, during the sidhanta jyotish period,poush purnima was the uttaryan tithi which is the celebrations dates even today, and during the vedanga jyotiish period maagha sukla pratipada was the uttaryan tithi. Although they were related to the makar sankanti and the sun in dhanistha positions respectively, both of which are nirayan dates, they also touched the sayan uttarayan dates and got the true tropical values as well in a coordinated manner during the repective epochs. > > > > > > But now since poush purnima does not touch the actual uttrayan date, this makes it necesssary to correct our vedic calendar again as was done before, as mentioned by Brahmihir in his Brihad samhita.He has said 'In the old scriptures it is mentioned that uttarayan occurs when the sun was in dhanistha nakshyatra, because it was true those days. But now uttrayan occurs when the sun is in makar sankranti, which can be verified practically. ' Thus by shifting the sidereal uttarayan to makar sankranti and the uttarayan tithi to poush purnima, which is evident by the shift of maagha snana,the coordination of the tropical uttaryan date and the sidereal utrarayan date by the respective tithi was maintained after reformation those days, say less than two thousand years ago. > > > > > > Should we also not do the reformation in the same way, to satisfy the vedic coordination clause specified by the sixth sloka of yajur vedang jyotish is my question. > > > > > > Please give your valuable suggestion. Thank you, > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Harry " <harishkumar09@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Hari Malla, > > > > > > > It is the Sayana system that is truly Vedic and thats exactly what the Rishi's used. The Nirayana system is non-vedic. Its not based on proper understanding of the Vedic Sacrifice. Sri Aurobindo came to give the correct interpretation of the Veda. And in the Aurobindo Ashram and also in Auroville only Sayana system is used. Only the tropical zodiac is the correct system. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > Harish Kumar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " hari " <harimalla@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Harishkumar ji, > > > > > > > > The intention of PNB may be correct as far as our calenar has gone out of tract. But taking the sayan system is not a vedic suggestion, it is the Gregorian suggestion. The vedic suggestion would be to maintain the nirayan saytem and yet reform our calendar the vedic way. > > > > > > > > This can easily be done by shifting our time frame by one whole month, so that our present Chaitra becoems the new Vaisakh or the present Meen sankranti becomes the new epochal Mesh sankranti. By this way the calendar is both reformed and the current nirayan system remains as it is. This method is the coordination of the concepts of two stalwarts of the nieteeth century- Bala ganagdhar Tilak and Shakar BK Dikshit. > > > > > > > > This is the best way to reform our calendar. > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > , " Harry " <harishkumar09@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Have the members of this group gone through the works of Patrizia Norelli Bachelet(PNB) and her views on astrology ? She advocates the Sayana Tropical Zodiac as the correct system. She traces the problems of India to a faulty calender and states rectification of it will make us perceive the Cosmic Harmonies which will bring forth the Satya Yuga the Age of Truth. What has been lost is the perfect measure of Time which needs to be retrieved. A resetting of the cosmic clock is necessary according to her for us to See the Truth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Clearly,its obvious to a child that Makara Sankranti should be celebrated on 21 December on Winter Solstice day,the shortest day of the year. But the current Nirayana system celebrates it 23 days later. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I give below a few useful links : > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > www.aeongroup. com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > www.patrizianorelli bachelet. com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Harry " <harishkumar09@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Hari Malla, > > > > > > > It is the Sayana system that is truly Vedic and thats exactly what the Rishi's used. The Nirayana system is non-vedic. Its not based on proper understanding of the Vedic Sacrifice. Sri Aurobindo came to give the correct interpretation of the Veda. And in the Aurobindo Ashram and also in Auroville only Sayana system is used. Only the tropical zodiac is the correct system. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > Harish Kumar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " hari " <harimalla@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Harishkumar ji, > > > > > > > > The intention of PNB may be correct as far as our calenar has gone out of tract. But taking the sayan system is not a vedic suggestion, it is the Gregorian suggestion. The vedic suggestion would be to maintain the nirayan saytem and yet reform our calendar the vedic way. > > > > > > > > This can easily be done by shifting our time frame by one whole month, so that our present Chaitra becoems the new Vaisakh or the present Meen sankranti becomes the new epochal Mesh sankranti. By this way the calendar is both reformed and the current nirayan system remains as it is. This method is the coordination of the concepts of two stalwarts of the nieteeth century- Bala ganagdhar Tilak and Shakar BK Dikshit. > > > > > > > > This is the best way to reform our calendar. > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > , " Harry " <harishkumar09@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Have the members of this group gone through the works of Patrizia Norelli Bachelet(PNB) and her views on astrology ? She advocates the Sayana Tropical Zodiac as the correct system. She traces the problems of India to a faulty calender and states rectification of it will make us perceive the Cosmic Harmonies which will bring forth the Satya Yuga the Age of Truth. What has been lost is the perfect measure of Time which needs to be retrieved. A resetting of the cosmic clock is necessary according to her for us to See the Truth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Clearly,its obvious to a child that Makara Sankranti should be celebrated on 21 December on Winter Solstice day,the shortest day of the year. But the current Nirayana system celebrates it 23 days later. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I give below a few useful links : > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > www.aeongroup. com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > www.patrizianorelli bachelet. com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2009 Report Share Posted November 28, 2009 Dear RAjji, Bhattacharyaji seems to be right at the face of it. But on careful consideration we have to consider these points too. 1)Although Vedang jyotish does not say 'sun in dhanistha' is the 'niryan' postion, we know that since the sun postion is referred to the seteller position it is nothing but 'nirayan' postion, by the modern reckoning and definition of steller or sidereal as nirayan. 2)Secondly since this sun's steller position at dhanistha,was equated with uttarayan by the 6th sloka of Yajur vedanga jyotish, it was the nirayan uttarayan of those days, in the same sense, we take makar sankranti as the nirayan uttaryan sankranti of today. It is not that makar sankranti was the uttarayan at Barahmihir's time only, but it is still the uttarayan of today, as we clebrate uttarayan at makar sankranti even now a days, which is specifically mentioned as uttarayan in our present panchangas, even if shri Bhattacharyaji would like to deny that it is the present uttaryan. 3)Letus not forget what Barahmihir says in his Brihad samhita.We can easily deduce from his expression, that the sun in dhanistha postion was taken as uttarayan nearly upto Barhmihir's time, say for about 1700 years after the start of Vedanga jyotish.Since it remained nirayan for so long a time,surely our system is limited nirayan. But we cannot say it is indefintiely nirayan,as Bhattacharyaji would like to think, since Barah mihir did eventually correct it and shifted it to makar sankranti, which we have not been able to shift even today, when its date also has already expired. There is no use denying facts.Please know that it is the nirayan uttarayan of today, till we shift uttrayn to a new position again. 4) Last but not the least,If our system was indefinitely nirayan as shri Bhatachryaji claims, and if it is free from the tropical uttarayan, then we could have still used the 'sun in dhanistha' postion of vedanga jyotish as the nirayan uttarayan of today and there was no need for Barhmihir to correct it to make it compatible with the uttarayan of Barhmihir's time.Thus this shows that although our system is nirayan, but it is limited nirayan and we have to coorect it from time to time to make it compatible with the sayan uttarayan which is the actual uttarayan like Barahmihir had done. Regards, Hari Malla , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya wrote: > > Dear friends, > > 1) > > Shri Harimalla himself admitted as follows: > > > Let me further clarify my own statement.My intention ws that Barahmihir > has mentioned in his Brihad Samhita, chapter Adityacharadhyaya that in > the olden days uttaryan occurred in dhanistha because it was true those > days, but by his time uttaryan had come to makar sankranti. > > > We are celebrating the Makar Sankranti when the Sun enters the Makar Rashi and that is unrelated to the Uttarayana. The Makar Sankranti now falls within the six-month period of Uttarayana starting from the Dhanu Rashi. But does he know that in the Mahabharata times the Sun entered the Makar Rashi in the Dakshinayana (ie. then the Makara Sankranti was in the Daksjinayana) and not in the Uttarayana? Any astronomer will tell him that. There is nothing like Nirayana uttarayana. In Vedanga Jyotisha it was not called Nirayana uttarayana. In the time of the composition of the the Vedanga jyotisha it occurred in the Nirayana Magha month and at that time it was the first seasonal month of the Sishir ritu, ie. the Tapas as Tapas always starts from the Uttarayana. > > > 2) > He also said > > Now my intention is that Barahmihir did not only change the mind set of > the blind people, but he shifted the nirayan uttarayan from the 'sun in > dhaninstha'position to the 'sun in makar sankranti'position. Shri > Rajji, Please give your opinion if I am right or not. > > > I repeat that Varahamihira did not change anything. The start of Uttarayana shifted due to the Precession of the earth and not due to Varahamihira and Varahamihira accepted that phenomenon gracefully. He did not want any credit or discredit that he had changed it. When the Winter Solstice occurred in his time he observed the position of the nakshatras in the sky and he knew that the Sun was not in the Dhanistha nakshatra but in the early part of the Makar rashi. In the ancient times the Jyotishis observed the night sky with their naked eye. Why to speak of the ancient times, even in the nineteenth century there were Jyotishis who observed the night sky for the position of the Grahas and the Nakshatras. Varahamihira simply acknowledged the effects of the precession of the earth. I think it is beyond Shri Harimalla's comprehension so he should leave it at that. Why should he rake his grey matter if he is finding it difficult to understand. > > Regards, > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > --- On Fri, 11/27/09, hari <harimalla wrote: > > hari <harimalla > Re: The Views of Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet > To: > > Friday, November 27, 2009, 8:03 AM >  > > > Dear Bhattacharyaji and RAjji, > > Let us please discuss this issue jointly.I find it difficult to explain what I mean to Bhattacharyaji. Thus I request shree RAjji also to join us here. I had said in my previous mail as follows: > > > > <Can you please explain what is meant by 'utttayan occurs when sun is in dhanistha or sun is in makar sanrkanti' at different times of our history.If they could be separated what was the necessity to shift the nirayan utttaryan from sun in dhanistha to sun in makar sankranti. If acoording to you indepeendant existaence of the two was OK, we could have as well continued with sun in dhanistha position of uttrayan even today. Why do you think they shifted it to makar sankranti as mentioned by Barhamihir.> > > Let me further clarify my own statement.My intention ws that Barahmihir has mentioned in his Brihad Samhita, chapter Adityacharadhyaya that in the olden days uttaryan occurred in dhanistha because it was true those days, but by his time uttaryan had come to makar sankranti. Sinc we are using makar sankranti even now as the 'nirayan' uttarayan,he did shift the nirayan uttarayan of vedanga jyotish,ie 'sun in dhannitatha' to the nirayan uttarayan as 'makar sankranti' which is continued even till this day. > > > > But shri Bhattacharyaji has replied thus: > > <We don't have to shift anything. We have only to recognise what is what. Now the Uttarayana starts when the Sun is in the Dhanu Rashi, ie. before the Makar Sankranti. In Varahamihira' s time the Uttarayana started in the beginning of the Makar Rashi. Ask any astronomer and he will confirm this. Varahamihira did not have to change anything except changing the mindset of the (intellectually) blind people.> > > Now my intention is that Barahmihir did not only change the mind set of the blind people, but he shifted the nirayan uttarayan from the 'sun in dhaninstha'position to the 'sun in makar sankranti'position. Shri Rajji, Please give your opinion if I am right or not. > > Regards, > > Hari Malla > > > > , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote: > > > > > > Shri Harimallaji, > > > > > > 1) > > > Uttarayana means the period of six month of the northern course of the Sun. The Makar Sankranti is observed in Uttarayana even now though the start of the Uttarayana is before the Makar sankranti. During the period of Vedanga Jyotisha the Uttarayana started in the first haif of the Dhanistha Nakshatra ie. it occurred in the end of the Makar Rashi. Thus at that time the Makar Sankramana occurred before the start of the Uttarayana. Once explained a school boy will understand this and I hope this will not be difficult for you to understand. > > > 2) > > > We don't have to shift anything. We have only to recognise what is what. Now the Uttarayana starts when the Sun is in the Dhanu Rashi, ie. before the Makar Sankranti. In Varahamihira' s time the Uttarayana started in the beginning of the Makar Rashi. Ask any astronomer and he will confirm this. Varahamihira did not have to change anything except changing the mindset of the (intellectually) blind people. > > > 3) > > > In the Brahmana of the Veda we find that at one time the Mahashivaratri fell on the start of the Uttarayana, ie. on the first day of the seasonal month of Tapas (and the astronomers will tell you that this time period was in the third millennium BCE). These days it does not fall on the day of the start of Uttarayana. Ask the schoolboy (whom if you explain the above concept of Uttarayana) and he will tell you that in the Vedic reference the calendar followed for the Mahashivaratri was the Sidereal calendar and not the Seasonal calendar. Darshaneyji, in spite of his good intentions prposed that in 2010 it should be celebrated in 12 tapasya, which defies all logic. It is neither according the Seasonal calendar nor according to the Sidereal calendar. If he strictly follows the Seasonal calendar then he should ask people to celebrate the Mahashivaratri on the Winter solstice day by quoting the precedence in the Veda. Hope this will not be > difficult for > > > you to undertand this. > > > > > > You profess to be so knowledgeable so are you pretending not to understand all these? If so please do not pretend and do not continue this unnnecessary mails so that the Jyotishis do not get disturbed in their main task of jyotish-discussions . I hope you do not like to make unsubstantiated statements like Shri Kaul, who short-sightaedy does all that just trying to win an argument. > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 11/21/09, hari <harimalla@ ..> wrote: > > > > > > hari <harimalla@ ..> > > > Re: The Views of Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet > > > > > > Saturday, November 21, 2009, 12:35 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Bhatachryaji, > > > > > > Can you please explain what is meant by 'utttayan occurs when sun is in dhanistha or sun is in makar sanrkanti' at different times of our history.If they could be separated what was the necessity to shift the nirayan utttaryan from sun in dhanistha to sun in makar sankranti. If acoording to you indepeendant existaence of the two was OK, we could have as well continued with sun in dhanistha position of uttrayan even today. Why do you think they shifted it to makar sankranti as mentioned by Barhamihir.What was the need if your independant theory of sayan and nirayan was acceptable. > > > > > > Please note that nowadays Shiva ratri is not linked with winter solstice at all.That may have been an old concept which has no bearing today. At present Shivaratri is at the mid point between winter solstice,which is Poush purnima(designated by start of maagha snana) and spring equinox which is Chaitra purnima (designated by Vaisakh snana). > > > > > > If you think coupling of the sayan and the nirayan concepts are not needed then please explain why Vedanga jyotish had to coordinate the sun in dhanistha position, uttarayan and also maagha sukla pratipada together into one by thesixth sloka.Thus to be Vedic we have to coordinate sayan sankranti, nirayan sankranti and the lunar tithi together.Thanks. > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear friends, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Everybody connected with calendar seems to avoid the Mahashivaratri issue. This year in February 2009 we observed the Mahashivaratri two months after the Winter Solstice in December 2008, whereas in the Kaushitaki Brahman the Shivaratri coincided with the Winter solstice. This is a clear case of ignoring the Sayana calendar for observing one of the most important festival of the Hindus. If one respects the Vedas and the Vedic calendar then any proposedcalendar should be able to explain the growing distance between the date of the Winter Solstice and the date of the Mahashivararti. Friends, who are genuinely interested in Vidic Calendar please wake up and look at the case mentioned, which will tell you that the Sayana and the Nirayana Calendars can coexist side by side without interfering with each other. Approximately every 25,800 years the the angular difference between the Sayana and the Nirayana positions will be repeated. No > compromise of any > > > > > > > sort will be required in Vedic calendar. A time will come when the Mahashivaratri will again coincide with the Winter Solstice. Of course you and me may not be there to see that happen. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 11/20/09, hari <harimalla@ ..> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hari <harimalla@ ..> > > > > > > > Re: The Views of Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Friday, November 20, 2009, 7:36 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Harry, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kindly confirm if the vedic correlationship I have drawn is satisfactory to you or not. Step by step we should proceed to arrive at the correct way of reforming our vedic calendar. This correction is of dire necessity now, since our populace are celebrating the festivals on wrong days,say lagging one month behind the schedule. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The lunar dates are controlled by the sidereal sankrantis as you must be well knowing. But for them to get the actual seasonal value these same tithis must also touch the sayan dates. For example, during the sidhanta jyotish period,poush purnima was the uttaryan tithi which is the celebrations dates even today, and during the vedanga jyotiish period maagha sukla pratipada was the uttaryan tithi. Although they were related to the makar sankanti and the sun in dhanistha positions respectively, both of which are nirayan dates, they also touched the sayan uttarayan dates and got the true tropical values as well in a coordinated manner during the repective epochs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But now since poush purnima does not touch the actual uttrayan date, this makes it necesssary to correct our vedic calendar again as was done before, as mentioned by Brahmihir in his Brihad samhita.He has said 'In the old scriptures it is mentioned that uttarayan occurs when the sun was in dhanistha nakshyatra, because it was true those days. But now uttrayan occurs when the sun is in makar sankranti, which can be verified practically. ' Thus by shifting the sidereal uttarayan to makar sankranti and the uttarayan tithi to poush purnima, which is evident by the shift of maagha snana,the coordination of the tropical uttaryan date and the sidereal utrarayan date by the respective tithi was maintained after reformation those days, say less than two thousand years ago. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Should we also not do the reformation in the same way, to satisfy the vedic coordination clause specified by the sixth sloka of yajur vedang jyotish is my question. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please give your valuable suggestion. Thank you, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Harry " <harishkumar09@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Hari Malla, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is the Sayana system that is truly Vedic and thats exactly what the Rishi's used. The Nirayana system is non-vedic. Its not based on proper understanding of the Vedic Sacrifice. Sri Aurobindo came to give the correct interpretation of the Veda. And in the Aurobindo Ashram and also in Auroville only Sayana system is used. Only the tropical zodiac is the correct system. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Harish Kumar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " hari " <harimalla@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Harishkumar ji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The intention of PNB may be correct as far as our calenar has gone out of tract. But taking the sayan system is not a vedic suggestion, it is the Gregorian suggestion. The vedic suggestion would be to maintain the nirayan saytem and yet reform our calendar the vedic way. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This can easily be done by shifting our time frame by one whole month, so that our present Chaitra becoems the new Vaisakh or the present Meen sankranti becomes the new epochal Mesh sankranti. By this way the calendar is both reformed and the current nirayan system remains as it is. This method is the coordination of the concepts of two stalwarts of the nieteeth century- Bala ganagdhar Tilak and Shakar BK Dikshit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is the best way to reform our calendar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Harry " <harishkumar09@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Have the members of this group gone through the works of Patrizia Norelli Bachelet(PNB) and her views on astrology ? She advocates the Sayana Tropical Zodiac as the correct system. She traces the problems of India to a faulty calender and states rectification of it will make us perceive the Cosmic Harmonies which will bring forth the Satya Yuga the Age of Truth. What has been lost is the perfect measure of Time which needs to be retrieved. A resetting of the cosmic clock is necessary according to her for us to See the Truth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Clearly,its obvious to a child that Makara Sankranti should be celebrated on 21 December on Winter Solstice day,the shortest day of the year. But the current Nirayana system celebrates it 23 days later. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I give below a few useful links : > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > www.aeongroup. com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > www.patrizianorelli bachelet. com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Harry " <harishkumar09@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Hari Malla, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is the Sayana system that is truly Vedic and thats exactly what the Rishi's used. The Nirayana system is non-vedic. Its not based on proper understanding of the Vedic Sacrifice. Sri Aurobindo came to give the correct interpretation of the Veda. And in the Aurobindo Ashram and also in Auroville only Sayana system is used. Only the tropical zodiac is the correct system. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Harish Kumar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " hari " <harimalla@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Harishkumar ji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The intention of PNB may be correct as far as our calenar has gone out of tract. But taking the sayan system is not a vedic suggestion, it is the Gregorian suggestion. The vedic suggestion would be to maintain the nirayan saytem and yet reform our calendar the vedic way. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This can easily be done by shifting our time frame by one whole month, so that our present Chaitra becoems the new Vaisakh or the present Meen sankranti becomes the new epochal Mesh sankranti. By this way the calendar is both reformed and the current nirayan system remains as it is. This method is the coordination of the concepts of two stalwarts of the nieteeth century- Bala ganagdhar Tilak and Shakar BK Dikshit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is the best way to reform our calendar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Harry " <harishkumar09@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Have the members of this group gone through the works of Patrizia Norelli Bachelet(PNB) and her views on astrology ? She advocates the Sayana Tropical Zodiac as the correct system. She traces the problems of India to a faulty calender and states rectification of it will make us perceive the Cosmic Harmonies which will bring forth the Satya Yuga the Age of Truth. What has been lost is the perfect measure of Time which needs to be retrieved. A resetting of the cosmic clock is necessary according to her for us to See the Truth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Clearly,its obvious to a child that Makara Sankranti should be celebrated on 21 December on Winter Solstice day,the shortest day of the year. But the current Nirayana system celebrates it 23 days later. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I give below a few useful links : > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > www.aeongroup. com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > www.patrizianorelli bachelet. com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2009 Report Share Posted November 28, 2009 Dear friends, What careful examination did Harimalla do? Just writing the phrase " on careful examination " does not make it careful exammination. Harimalla should give up his tricks. This forum has matured people and they can see whether it was careful examination or repetion of Harimalla's old views. Once the Uttarayana occurred in the Dhanishtha nakshatra does not mean that it will always occur there. So calling the Uttarayana a sidereal phenomenon is not appropriate as the Nakshatras do not have ayana (ie. movement) but Uttarayana has " ayana " built into it by definition / etymology. If you observe you will see that Harimalla's " Nirayana uttarayana " will mean " No ayana Uttarayana " or " Uttarayana with with no ayana " because Nirayana means : Nih (no) + ayana (movement) = Nirayana. Varahamihira observed the night sky with his naked eye as the ancient astronomers used to do and this practice of naked eye observation continued till the end of the nineteenth century to study the positions of the Grahas and the nakshatras. These days we can get the data from the modern astronomical societies or institutions and cansee that the Uttarayana occurs in the Dhanu rashi. I am only asking that one should take the actual positions of the occurrence of the Uttarayana just like Darshaneyji had done. Darshaneyji should amalgamate his seasonal calendar with the Sidereal calendar so that he should be able to accommodate the festivals like Ram Navami in the shuklanavami of the purnimanta Chaitra month and Mahashivaratri in the Krishnachaturdashi of the purnimanta Magha month. It appears the subject is beyond the comprehension of Harimalla and he should desist from writing on it. Regards, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya --- On Sat, 11/28/09, hari <harimalla wrote: hari <harimalla Re: The Views of Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet Saturday, November 28, 2009, 7:49 AM  Dear RAjji, Bhattacharyaji seems to be right at the face of it. But on careful consideration we have to consider these points too. 1)Although Vedang jyotish does not say 'sun in dhanistha' is the 'niryan' postion, we know that since the sun postion is referred to the seteller position it is nothing but 'nirayan' postion, by the modern reckoning and definition of steller or sidereal as nirayan. 2)Secondly since this sun's steller position at dhanistha,was equated with uttarayan by the 6th sloka of Yajur vedanga jyotish, it was the nirayan uttarayan of those days, in the same sense, we take makar sankranti as the nirayan uttaryan sankranti of today. It is not that makar sankranti was the uttarayan at Barahmihir's time only, but it is still the uttarayan of today, as we clebrate uttarayan at makar sankranti even now a days, which is specifically mentioned as uttarayan in our present panchangas, even if shri Bhattacharyaji would like to deny that it is the present uttaryan. 3)Letus not forget what Barahmihir says in his Brihad samhita.We can easily deduce from his expression, that the sun in dhanistha postion was taken as uttarayan nearly upto Barhmihir's time, say for about 1700 years after the start of Vedanga jyotish.Since it remained nirayan for so long a time,surely our system is limited nirayan. But we cannot say it is indefintiely nirayan,as Bhattacharyaji would like to think, since Barah mihir did eventually correct it and shifted it to makar sankranti, which we have not been able to shift even today, when its date also has already expired. There is no use denying facts.Please know that it is the nirayan uttarayan of today, till we shift uttrayn to a new position again. 4) Last but not the least,If our system was indefinitely nirayan as shri Bhatachryaji claims, and if it is free from the tropical uttarayan, then we could have still used the 'sun in dhanistha' postion of vedanga jyotish as the nirayan uttarayan of today and there was no need for Barhmihir to correct it to make it compatible with the uttarayan of Barhmihir's time.Thus this shows that although our system is nirayan, but it is limited nirayan and we have to coorect it from time to time to make it compatible with the sayan uttarayan which is the actual uttarayan like Barahmihir had done. Regards, Hari Malla , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote: > > Dear friends, > > 1) > > Shri Harimalla himself admitted as follows: > > > Let me further clarify my own statement.My intention ws that Barahmihir > has mentioned in his Brihad Samhita, chapter Adityacharadhyaya that in > the olden days uttaryan occurred in dhanistha because it was true those > days, but by his time uttaryan had come to makar sankranti. > > > We are celebrating the Makar Sankranti when the Sun enters the Makar Rashi and that is unrelated to the Uttarayana. The Makar Sankranti now falls within the six-month period of Uttarayana starting from the Dhanu Rashi. But does he know that in the Mahabharata times the Sun entered the Makar Rashi in the Dakshinayana (ie. then the Makara Sankranti was in the Daksjinayana) and not in the Uttarayana? Any astronomer will tell him that. There is nothing like Nirayana uttarayana. In Vedanga Jyotisha it was not called Nirayana uttarayana. In the time of the composition of the the Vedanga jyotisha it occurred in the Nirayana Magha month and at that time it was the first seasonal month of the Sishir ritu, ie. the Tapas as Tapas always starts from the Uttarayana. > > > 2) > He also said > > Now my intention is that Barahmihir did not only change the mind set of > the blind people, but he shifted the nirayan uttarayan from the 'sun in > dhaninstha'position to the 'sun in makar sankranti'position. Shri > Rajji, Please give your opinion if I am right or not. > > > I repeat that Varahamihira did not change anything. The start of Uttarayana shifted due to the Precession of the earth and not due to Varahamihira and Varahamihira accepted that phenomenon gracefully. He did not want any credit or discredit that he had changed it. When the Winter Solstice occurred in his time he observed the position of the nakshatras in the sky and he knew that the Sun was not in the Dhanistha nakshatra but in the early part of the Makar rashi. In the ancient times the Jyotishis observed the night sky with their naked eye. Why to speak of the ancient times, even in the nineteenth century there were Jyotishis who observed the night sky for the position of the Grahas and the Nakshatras. Varahamihira simply acknowledged the effects of the precession of the earth. I think it is beyond Shri Harimalla's comprehension so he should leave it at that. Why should he rake his grey matter if he is finding it difficult to understand. > > Regards, > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > --- On Fri, 11/27/09, hari <harimalla@. ..> wrote: > > hari <harimalla@. ..> > Re: The Views of Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet > To: > > Friday, November 27, 2009, 8:03 AM > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > Dear Bhattacharyaji and RAjji, > > Let us please discuss this issue jointly.I find it difficult to explain what I mean to Bhattacharyaji. Thus I request shree RAjji also to join us here. I had said in my previous mail as follows: > > > > <Can you please explain what is meant by 'utttayan occurs when sun is in dhanistha or sun is in makar sanrkanti' at different times of our history.If they could be separated what was the necessity to shift the nirayan utttaryan from sun in dhanistha to sun in makar sankranti. If acoording to you indepeendant existaence of the two was OK, we could have as well continued with sun in dhanistha position of uttrayan even today. Why do you think they shifted it to makar sankranti as mentioned by Barhamihir.> > > Let me further clarify my own statement.My intention ws that Barahmihir has mentioned in his Brihad Samhita, chapter Adityacharadhyaya that in the olden days uttaryan occurred in dhanistha because it was true those days, but by his time uttaryan had come to makar sankranti. Sinc we are using makar sankranti even now as the 'nirayan' uttarayan,he did shift the nirayan uttarayan of vedanga jyotish,ie 'sun in dhannitatha' to the nirayan uttarayan as 'makar sankranti' which is continued even till this day. > > > > But shri Bhattacharyaji has replied thus: > > <We don't have to shift anything. We have only to recognise what is what. Now the Uttarayana starts when the Sun is in the Dhanu Rashi, ie. before the Makar Sankranti. In Varahamihira' s time the Uttarayana started in the beginning of the Makar Rashi. Ask any astronomer and he will confirm this. Varahamihira did not have to change anything except changing the mindset of the (intellectually) blind people.> > > Now my intention is that Barahmihir did not only change the mind set of the blind people, but he shifted the nirayan uttarayan from the 'sun in dhaninstha'position to the 'sun in makar sankranti'position. Shri Rajji, Please give your opinion if I am right or not. > > Regards, > > Hari Malla > > > > , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote: > > > > > > Shri Harimallaji, > > > > > > 1) > > > Uttarayana means the period of six month of the northern course of the Sun. The Makar Sankranti is observed in Uttarayana even now though the start of the Uttarayana is before the Makar sankranti. During the period of Vedanga Jyotisha the Uttarayana started in the first haif of the Dhanistha Nakshatra ie. it occurred in the end of the Makar Rashi. Thus at that time the Makar Sankramana occurred before the start of the Uttarayana. Once explained a school boy will understand this and I hope this will not be difficult for you to understand. > > > 2) > > > We don't have to shift anything. We have only to recognise what is what. Now the Uttarayana starts when the Sun is in the Dhanu Rashi, ie. before the Makar Sankranti. In Varahamihira' s time the Uttarayana started in the beginning of the Makar Rashi. Ask any astronomer and he will confirm this. Varahamihira did not have to change anything except changing the mindset of the (intellectually) blind people. > > > 3) > > > In the Brahmana of the Veda we find that at one time the Mahashivaratri fell on the start of the Uttarayana, ie. on the first day of the seasonal month of Tapas (and the astronomers will tell you that this time period was in the third millennium BCE). These days it does not fall on the day of the start of Uttarayana. Ask the schoolboy (whom if you explain the above concept of Uttarayana) and he will tell you that in the Vedic reference the calendar followed for the Mahashivaratri was the Sidereal calendar and not the Seasonal calendar. Darshaneyji, in spite of his good intentions prposed that in 2010 it should be celebrated in 12 tapasya, which defies all logic. It is neither according the Seasonal calendar nor according to the Sidereal calendar. If he strictly follows the Seasonal calendar then he should ask people to celebrate the Mahashivaratri on the Winter solstice day by quoting the precedence in the Veda. Hope this will not be > difficult for > > > you to undertand this. > > > > > > You profess to be so knowledgeable so are you pretending not to understand all these? If so please do not pretend and do not continue this unnnecessary mails so that the Jyotishis do not get disturbed in their main task of jyotish-discussions . I hope you do not like to make unsubstantiated statements like Shri Kaul, who short-sightaedy does all that just trying to win an argument. > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 11/21/09, hari <harimalla@ ..> wrote: > > > > > > hari <harimalla@ ..> > > > Re: The Views of Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet > > > > > > Saturday, November 21, 2009, 12:35 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Bhatachryaji, > > > > > > Can you please explain what is meant by 'utttayan occurs when sun is in dhanistha or sun is in makar sanrkanti' at different times of our history.If they could be separated what was the necessity to shift the nirayan utttaryan from sun in dhanistha to sun in makar sankranti. If acoording to you indepeendant existaence of the two was OK, we could have as well continued with sun in dhanistha position of uttrayan even today. Why do you think they shifted it to makar sankranti as mentioned by Barhamihir.What was the need if your independant theory of sayan and nirayan was acceptable. > > > > > > Please note that nowadays Shiva ratri is not linked with winter solstice at all.That may have been an old concept which has no bearing today. At present Shivaratri is at the mid point between winter solstice,which is Poush purnima(designated by start of maagha snana) and spring equinox which is Chaitra purnima (designated by Vaisakh snana). > > > > > > If you think coupling of the sayan and the nirayan concepts are not needed then please explain why Vedanga jyotish had to coordinate the sun in dhanistha position, uttarayan and also maagha sukla pratipada together into one by thesixth sloka.Thus to be Vedic we have to coordinate sayan sankranti, nirayan sankranti and the lunar tithi together.Thanks. > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear friends, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Everybody connected with calendar seems to avoid the Mahashivaratri issue. This year in February 2009 we observed the Mahashivaratri two months after the Winter Solstice in December 2008, whereas in the Kaushitaki Brahman the Shivaratri coincided with the Winter solstice. This is a clear case of ignoring the Sayana calendar for observing one of the most important festival of the Hindus. If one respects the Vedas and the Vedic calendar then any proposedcalendar should be able to explain the growing distance between the date of the Winter Solstice and the date of the Mahashivararti. Friends, who are genuinely interested in Vidic Calendar please wake up and look at the case mentioned, which will tell you that the Sayana and the Nirayana Calendars can coexist side by side without interfering with each other. Approximately every 25,800 years the the angular difference between the Sayana and the Nirayana positions will be repeated. No > compromise of any > > > > > > > sort will be required in Vedic calendar. A time will come when the Mahashivaratri will again coincide with the Winter Solstice. Of course you and me may not be there to see that happen. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 11/20/09, hari <harimalla@ ..> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hari <harimalla@ ..> > > > > > > > Re: The Views of Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Friday, November 20, 2009, 7:36 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Harry, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kindly confirm if the vedic correlationship I have drawn is satisfactory to you or not. Step by step we should proceed to arrive at the correct way of reforming our vedic calendar. This correction is of dire necessity now, since our populace are celebrating the festivals on wrong days,say lagging one month behind the schedule. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The lunar dates are controlled by the sidereal sankrantis as you must be well knowing. But for them to get the actual seasonal value these same tithis must also touch the sayan dates. For example, during the sidhanta jyotish period,poush purnima was the uttaryan tithi which is the celebrations dates even today, and during the vedanga jyotiish period maagha sukla pratipada was the uttaryan tithi. Although they were related to the makar sankanti and the sun in dhanistha positions respectively, both of which are nirayan dates, they also touched the sayan uttarayan dates and got the true tropical values as well in a coordinated manner during the repective epochs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But now since poush purnima does not touch the actual uttrayan date, this makes it necesssary to correct our vedic calendar again as was done before, as mentioned by Brahmihir in his Brihad samhita.He has said 'In the old scriptures it is mentioned that uttarayan occurs when the sun was in dhanistha nakshyatra, because it was true those days. But now uttrayan occurs when the sun is in makar sankranti, which can be verified practically. ' Thus by shifting the sidereal uttarayan to makar sankranti and the uttarayan tithi to poush purnima, which is evident by the shift of maagha snana,the coordination of the tropical uttaryan date and the sidereal utrarayan date by the respective tithi was maintained after reformation those days, say less than two thousand years ago. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Should we also not do the reformation in the same way, to satisfy the vedic coordination clause specified by the sixth sloka of yajur vedang jyotish is my question. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please give your valuable suggestion. Thank you, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Harry " <harishkumar09@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Hari Malla, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is the Sayana system that is truly Vedic and thats exactly what the Rishi's used. The Nirayana system is non-vedic. Its not based on proper understanding of the Vedic Sacrifice. Sri Aurobindo came to give the correct interpretation of the Veda. And in the Aurobindo Ashram and also in Auroville only Sayana system is used. Only the tropical zodiac is the correct system. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Harish Kumar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " hari " <harimalla@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Harishkumar ji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The intention of PNB may be correct as far as our calenar has gone out of tract. But taking the sayan system is not a vedic suggestion, it is the Gregorian suggestion. The vedic suggestion would be to maintain the nirayan saytem and yet reform our calendar the vedic way. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This can easily be done by shifting our time frame by one whole month, so that our present Chaitra becoems the new Vaisakh or the present Meen sankranti becomes the new epochal Mesh sankranti. By this way the calendar is both reformed and the current nirayan system remains as it is. This method is the coordination of the concepts of two stalwarts of the nieteeth century- Bala ganagdhar Tilak and Shakar BK Dikshit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is the best way to reform our calendar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Harry " <harishkumar09@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Have the members of this group gone through the works of Patrizia Norelli Bachelet(PNB) and her views on astrology ? She advocates the Sayana Tropical Zodiac as the correct system. She traces the problems of India to a faulty calender and states rectification of it will make us perceive the Cosmic Harmonies which will bring forth the Satya Yuga the Age of Truth. What has been lost is the perfect measure of Time which needs to be retrieved. A resetting of the cosmic clock is necessary according to her for us to See the Truth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Clearly,its obvious to a child that Makara Sankranti should be celebrated on 21 December on Winter Solstice day,the shortest day of the year. But the current Nirayana system celebrates it 23 days later. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I give below a few useful links : > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > www.aeongroup. com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > www.patrizianorelli bachelet. com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Harry " <harishkumar09@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Hari Malla, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is the Sayana system that is truly Vedic and thats exactly what the Rishi's used. The Nirayana system is non-vedic. Its not based on proper understanding of the Vedic Sacrifice. Sri Aurobindo came to give the correct interpretation of the Veda. And in the Aurobindo Ashram and also in Auroville only Sayana system is used. Only the tropical zodiac is the correct system. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Harish Kumar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " hari " <harimalla@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Harishkumar ji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The intention of PNB may be correct as far as our calenar has gone out of tract. But taking the sayan system is not a vedic suggestion, it is the Gregorian suggestion. The vedic suggestion would be to maintain the nirayan saytem and yet reform our calendar the vedic way. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This can easily be done by shifting our time frame by one whole month, so that our present Chaitra becoems the new Vaisakh or the present Meen sankranti becomes the new epochal Mesh sankranti. By this way the calendar is both reformed and the current nirayan system remains as it is. This method is the coordination of the concepts of two stalwarts of the nieteeth century- Bala ganagdhar Tilak and Shakar BK Dikshit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is the best way to reform our calendar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Harry " <harishkumar09@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Have the members of this group gone through the works of Patrizia Norelli Bachelet(PNB) and her views on astrology ? She advocates the Sayana Tropical Zodiac as the correct system. She traces the problems of India to a faulty calender and states rectification of it will make us perceive the Cosmic Harmonies which will bring forth the Satya Yuga the Age of Truth. What has been lost is the perfect measure of Time which needs to be retrieved. A resetting of the cosmic clock is necessary according to her for us to See the Truth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Clearly,its obvious to a child that Makara Sankranti should be celebrated on 21 December on Winter Solstice day,the shortest day of the year. But the current Nirayana system celebrates it 23 days later. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I give below a few useful links : > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > www.aeongroup. com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > www.patrizianorelli bachelet. com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 29, 2009 Report Share Posted November 29, 2009 Dada, Chela once had a math teacher who was considered a GEM of a Teacher in those ashram days! Little wonder that he was named, " Ratna-Parkhey " . Math had always been a challenge for Teenager (TA/Chelaa)! Ratna-Parkhey was about 40 at that time and getting a bit TOO comfortable with where he was at! Enough fame, adequate private tutions and a cushy life in Daly College as that 'school' run by a Kashmiri Brahmin with Anglo-aspirations was named! Chelaa disliked him as a callous math teacher who was simply not teaching math, as he was supposed to! However, one day, Chelaa observed a transformation! A student in his care sustained an accidental head-injury and since back in the early 60's there were no ambulances, Ratna-Parkhey jee sprang into action and carried the boy in his care, bleeding from his scalp wound to the hospital! Looking back, that was when I realized what mars is all about! Astrology was just beginning to dawn upon me! Rohiniranjan , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya wrote: > > Dear friends, > > What careful examination did Harimalla do? Just writing the phrase " on careful examination " does not make it careful exammination. Harimalla should give up his tricks. This forum has matured people and they can see whether it was careful examination or repetion of Harimalla's old views. > > Once the Uttarayana occurred in the Dhanishtha nakshatra does not mean that it will always occur there. So calling the Uttarayana a sidereal phenomenon is not appropriate as the Nakshatras do not have ayana (ie. movement) but Uttarayana has " ayana " built into it by definition / etymology. If you observe you will see that Harimalla's " Nirayana uttarayana " will mean " No ayana Uttarayana " or " Uttarayana with with no ayana " because Nirayana means : Nih (no) + ayana (movement) = Nirayana. > > Varahamihira observed the night sky with his naked eye as the ancient astronomers used to do and this practice of naked eye observation continued till the end of the nineteenth century to study the positions of the Grahas and the nakshatras. These days we can get the data from the modern astronomical societies or institutions and cansee that the Uttarayana occurs in the Dhanu rashi. > > I am only asking that one should take the actual positions of the occurrence of the Uttarayana just like Darshaneyji had done. Darshaneyji should amalgamate his seasonal calendar with the Sidereal calendar so that he should be able to accommodate the festivals like Ram Navami in the shuklanavami of the purnimanta Chaitra month and Mahashivaratri in the Krishnachaturdashi of the purnimanta Magha month. > > It appears the subject is beyond the comprehension of Harimalla and he should desist from writing on it. > > Regards, > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > --- On Sat, 11/28/09, hari <harimalla wrote: > > hari <harimalla > Re: The Views of Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet > > Saturday, November 28, 2009, 7:49 AM >  > > > Dear RAjji, > > Bhattacharyaji seems to be right at the face of it. But on careful consideration we have to consider these points too. > > 1)Although Vedang jyotish does not say 'sun in dhanistha' is the 'niryan' postion, we know that since the sun postion is referred to the seteller position it is nothing but 'nirayan' postion, by the modern reckoning and definition of steller or sidereal as nirayan. > > > > 2)Secondly since this sun's steller position at dhanistha,was equated with uttarayan by the 6th sloka of Yajur vedanga jyotish, it was the nirayan uttarayan of those days, in the same sense, we take makar sankranti as the nirayan uttaryan sankranti of today. It is not that makar sankranti was the uttarayan at Barahmihir's time only, but it is still the uttarayan of today, as we clebrate uttarayan at makar sankranti even now a days, which is specifically mentioned as uttarayan in our present panchangas, even if shri Bhattacharyaji would like to deny that it is the present uttaryan. > > > > 3)Letus not forget what Barahmihir says in his Brihad samhita.We can easily deduce from his expression, that the sun in dhanistha postion was taken as uttarayan nearly upto Barhmihir's time, say for about 1700 years after the start of Vedanga jyotish.Since it remained nirayan for so long a time,surely our system is limited nirayan. > > But we cannot say it is indefintiely nirayan,as Bhattacharyaji would like to think, since Barah mihir did eventually correct it and shifted it to makar sankranti, which we have not been able to shift even today, when its date also has already expired. There is no use denying facts.Please know that it is the nirayan uttarayan of today, till we shift uttrayn to a new position again. > > 4) Last but not the least,If our system was indefinitely nirayan as shri Bhatachryaji claims, and if it is free from the tropical uttarayan, then we could have still used the 'sun in dhanistha' postion of vedanga jyotish as the nirayan uttarayan of today and there was no need for Barhmihir to correct it to make it compatible with the uttarayan of Barhmihir's time.Thus this shows that although our system is nirayan, but it is limited nirayan and we have to coorect it from time to time to make it compatible with the sayan uttarayan which is the actual uttarayan like Barahmihir had done. > > Regards, > > Hari Malla > > > > , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote: > > > > > > Dear friends, > > > > > > 1) > > > > > > Shri Harimalla himself admitted as follows: > > > > > > > > > Let me further clarify my own statement.My intention ws that Barahmihir > > > has mentioned in his Brihad Samhita, chapter Adityacharadhyaya that in > > > the olden days uttaryan occurred in dhanistha because it was true those > > > days, but by his time uttaryan had come to makar sankranti. > > > > > > > > > We are celebrating the Makar Sankranti when the Sun enters the Makar Rashi and that is unrelated to the Uttarayana. The Makar Sankranti now falls within the six-month period of Uttarayana starting from the Dhanu Rashi. But does he know that in the Mahabharata times the Sun entered the Makar Rashi in the Dakshinayana (ie. then the Makara Sankranti was in the Daksjinayana) and not in the Uttarayana? Any astronomer will tell him that. There is nothing like Nirayana uttarayana. In Vedanga Jyotisha it was not called Nirayana uttarayana. In the time of the composition of the the Vedanga jyotisha it occurred in the Nirayana Magha month and at that time it was the first seasonal month of the Sishir ritu, ie. the Tapas as Tapas always starts from the Uttarayana. > > > > > > > > > 2) > > > He also said > > > > > > Now my intention is that Barahmihir did not only change the mind set of > > > the blind people, but he shifted the nirayan uttarayan from the 'sun in > > > dhaninstha'position to the 'sun in makar sankranti'position. Shri > > > Rajji, Please give your opinion if I am right or not. > > > > > > > > > I repeat that Varahamihira did not change anything. The start of Uttarayana shifted due to the Precession of the earth and not due to Varahamihira and Varahamihira accepted that phenomenon gracefully. He did not want any credit or discredit that he had changed it. When the Winter Solstice occurred in his time he observed the position of the nakshatras in the sky and he knew that the Sun was not in the Dhanistha nakshatra but in the early part of the Makar rashi. In the ancient times the Jyotishis observed the night sky with their naked eye. Why to speak of the ancient times, even in the nineteenth century there were Jyotishis who observed the night sky for the position of the Grahas and the Nakshatras. Varahamihira simply acknowledged the effects of the precession of the earth. I think it is beyond Shri Harimalla's comprehension so he should leave it at that. Why should he rake his grey matter if he is finding it difficult to understand. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 11/27/09, hari <harimalla@ ..> wrote: > > > > > > hari <harimalla@ ..> > > > Re: The Views of Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet > > > To: > > > > > > Friday, November 27, 2009, 8:03 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Bhattacharyaji and RAjji, > > > > > > Let us please discuss this issue jointly.I find it difficult to explain what I mean to Bhattacharyaji. Thus I request shree RAjji also to join us here. I had said in my previous mail as follows: > > > > > > > > > > > > <Can you please explain what is meant by 'utttayan occurs when sun is in dhanistha or sun is in makar sanrkanti' at different times of our history.If they could be separated what was the necessity to shift the nirayan utttaryan from sun in dhanistha to sun in makar sankranti. If acoording to you indepeendant existaence of the two was OK, we could have as well continued with sun in dhanistha position of uttrayan even today. Why do you think they shifted it to makar sankranti as mentioned by Barhamihir.> > > > > > > Let me further clarify my own statement.My intention ws that Barahmihir has mentioned in his Brihad Samhita, chapter Adityacharadhyaya that in the olden days uttaryan occurred in dhanistha because it was true those days, but by his time uttaryan had come to makar sankranti. Sinc we are using makar sankranti even now as the 'nirayan' uttarayan,he did shift the nirayan uttarayan of vedanga jyotish,ie 'sun in dhannitatha' to the nirayan uttarayan as 'makar sankranti' which is continued even till this day. > > > > > > > > > > > > But shri Bhattacharyaji has replied thus: > > > > > > <We don't have to shift anything. We have only to recognise what is what. Now the Uttarayana starts when the Sun is in the Dhanu Rashi, ie. before the Makar Sankranti. In Varahamihira' s time the Uttarayana started in the beginning of the Makar Rashi. Ask any astronomer and he will confirm this. Varahamihira did not have to change anything except changing the mindset of the (intellectually) blind people.> > > > > > > Now my intention is that Barahmihir did not only change the mind set of the blind people, but he shifted the nirayan uttarayan from the 'sun in dhaninstha'position to the 'sun in makar sankranti'position. Shri Rajji, Please give your opinion if I am right or not. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shri Harimallaji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1) > > > > > > > Uttarayana means the period of six month of the northern course of the Sun. The Makar Sankranti is observed in Uttarayana even now though the start of the Uttarayana is before the Makar sankranti. During the period of Vedanga Jyotisha the Uttarayana started in the first haif of the Dhanistha Nakshatra ie. it occurred in the end of the Makar Rashi. Thus at that time the Makar Sankramana occurred before the start of the Uttarayana. Once explained a school boy will understand this and I hope this will not be difficult for you to understand. > > > > > > > 2) > > > > > > > We don't have to shift anything. We have only to recognise what is what. Now the Uttarayana starts when the Sun is in the Dhanu Rashi, ie. before the Makar Sankranti. In Varahamihira' s time the Uttarayana started in the beginning of the Makar Rashi. Ask any astronomer and he will confirm this. Varahamihira did not have to change anything except changing the mindset of the (intellectually) blind people. > > > > > > > 3) > > > > > > > In the Brahmana of the Veda we find that at one time the Mahashivaratri fell on the start of the Uttarayana, ie. on the first day of the seasonal month of Tapas (and the astronomers will tell you that this time period was in the third millennium BCE). These days it does not fall on the day of the start of Uttarayana. Ask the schoolboy (whom if you explain the above concept of Uttarayana) and he will tell you that in the Vedic reference the calendar followed for the Mahashivaratri was the Sidereal calendar and not the Seasonal calendar. Darshaneyji, in spite of his good intentions prposed that in 2010 it should be celebrated in 12 tapasya, which defies all logic. It is neither according the Seasonal calendar nor according to the Sidereal calendar. If he strictly follows the Seasonal calendar then he should ask people to celebrate the Mahashivaratri on the Winter solstice day by quoting the precedence in the Veda. Hope this will not > be > > > difficult for > > > > > > > you to undertand this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You profess to be so knowledgeable so are you pretending not to understand all these? If so please do not pretend and do not continue this unnnecessary mails so that the Jyotishis do not get disturbed in their main task of jyotish-discussions . I hope you do not like to make unsubstantiated statements like Shri Kaul, who short-sightaedy does all that just trying to win an argument. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 11/21/09, hari <harimalla@ ..> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hari <harimalla@ ..> > > > > > > > Re: The Views of Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Saturday, November 21, 2009, 12:35 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Bhatachryaji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Can you please explain what is meant by 'utttayan occurs when sun is in dhanistha or sun is in makar sanrkanti' at different times of our history.If they could be separated what was the necessity to shift the nirayan utttaryan from sun in dhanistha to sun in makar sankranti. If acoording to you indepeendant existaence of the two was OK, we could have as well continued with sun in dhanistha position of uttrayan even today. Why do you think they shifted it to makar sankranti as mentioned by Barhamihir.What was the need if your independant theory of sayan and nirayan was acceptable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please note that nowadays Shiva ratri is not linked with winter solstice at all.That may have been an old concept which has no bearing today. At present Shivaratri is at the mid point between winter solstice,which is Poush purnima(designated by start of maagha snana) and spring equinox which is Chaitra purnima (designated by Vaisakh snana). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you think coupling of the sayan and the nirayan concepts are not needed then please explain why Vedanga jyotish had to coordinate the sun in dhanistha position, uttarayan and also maagha sukla pratipada together into one by thesixth sloka.Thus to be Vedic we have to coordinate sayan sankranti, nirayan sankranti and the lunar tithi together.Thanks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear friends, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Everybody connected with calendar seems to avoid the Mahashivaratri issue. This year in February 2009 we observed the MahashivaratriÃÆ'‚ two months after the Winter Solstice in December 2008, whereas in the Kaushitaki Brahman the Shivaratri coincided with the Winter solstice. This is a clear case of ignoring the Sayana calendar for observing one of the most important festival of the Hindus. If one respects the Vedas and the Vedic calendar then any proposedcalendar should be able to explain the growing distance between the date of the Winter Solstice and the date of the Mahashivararti. Friends, who are genuinely interested in Vidic Calendar please wake up and look at the case mentioned, which will tell you that the Sayana and the Nirayana Calendars can coexist side by side without interfering with each other.ÃÆ'‚ Approximately every 25,800 years the the angular difference between the Sayana and the Nirayana positions will be > repeated. No > > > compromise of any > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sort will be required in Vedic calendar. A time will come when the Mahashivaratri will again coincide with the Winter Solstice. Of course you and me may not be there to see that happen. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 11/20/09, hari <harimalla@ ..> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hari <harimalla@ ..> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Re: The Views of Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Friday, November 20, 2009, 7:36 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Harry, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kindly confirm if the vedic correlationship I have drawn is satisfactory to you or not. Step by step we should proceed to arrive at the correct way of reforming our vedic calendar. This correction is of dire necessity now, since our populace are celebrating the festivals on wrong days,say lagging one month behind the schedule. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The lunar dates are controlled by the sidereal sankrantis as you must be well knowing. But for them to get the actual seasonal value these same tithis must also touch the sayan dates. For example, during the sidhanta jyotish period,poush purnima was the uttaryan tithi which is the celebrations dates even today, and during the vedanga jyotiish period maagha sukla pratipada was the uttaryan tithi. Although they were related to the makar sankanti and the sun in dhanistha positions respectively, both of which are nirayan dates, they also touched the sayan uttarayan dates and got the true tropical values as well in a coordinated manner during the repective epochs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But now since poush purnima does not touch the actual uttrayan date, this makes it necesssary to correct our vedic calendar again as was done before, as mentioned by Brahmihir in his Brihad samhita.He has said 'In the old scriptures it is mentioned that uttarayan occurs when the sun was in dhanistha nakshyatra, because it was true those days. But now uttrayan occurs when the sun is in makar sankranti, which can be verified practically. ' Thus by shifting the sidereal uttarayan to makar sankranti and the uttarayan tithi to poush purnima, which is evident by the shift of maagha snana,the coordination of the tropical uttaryan date and the sidereal utrarayan date by the respective tithi was maintained after reformation those days, say less than two thousand years ago. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Should we also not do the reformation in the same way, to satisfy the vedic coordination clause specified by the sixth sloka of yajur vedang jyotish is my question. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please give your valuable suggestion. Thank you, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Harry " <harishkumar09@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Hari Malla, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is the Sayana system that is truly Vedic and thats exactly what the Rishi's used. The Nirayana system is non-vedic. Its not based on proper understanding of the Vedic Sacrifice. Sri Aurobindo came to give the correct interpretation of the Veda. And in the Aurobindo Ashram and also in Auroville only Sayana system is used. Only the tropical zodiac is the correct system. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Harish Kumar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " hari " <harimalla@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Harishkumar ji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The intention of PNB may be correct as far as our calenar has gone out of tract. But taking the sayan system is not a vedic suggestion, it is the Gregorian suggestion. The vedic suggestion would be to maintain the nirayan saytem and yet reform our calendar the vedic way. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This can easily be done by shifting our time frame by one whole month, so that our present Chaitra becoems the new Vaisakh or the present Meen sankranti becomes the new epochal Mesh sankranti. By this way the calendar is both reformed and the current nirayan system remains as it is. This method is the coordination of the concepts of two stalwarts of the nieteeth century- Bala ganagdhar Tilak and Shakar BK Dikshit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is the best way to reform our calendar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Harry " <harishkumar09@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Have the members of this group gone through the works of Patrizia Norelli Bachelet(PNB) and her views on astrology ? She advocates the Sayana Tropical Zodiac as the correct system. She traces the problems of India to a faulty calender and states rectification of it will make us perceive the Cosmic Harmonies which will bring forth the Satya Yuga the Age of Truth. What has been lost is the perfect measure of Time which needs to be retrieved. A resetting of the cosmic clock is necessary according to her for us to See the Truth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Clearly,its obvious to a child that Makara Sankranti should be celebrated on 21 December on Winter Solstice day,the shortest day of the year. But the current Nirayana system celebrates it 23 days later. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I give below a few useful links : > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > www.aeongroup. com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > www.patrizianorelli bachelet. com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Harry " <harishkumar09@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Hari Malla, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is the Sayana system that is truly Vedic and thats exactly what the Rishi's used. The Nirayana system is non-vedic. Its not based on proper understanding of the Vedic Sacrifice. Sri Aurobindo came to give the correct interpretation of the Veda. And in the Aurobindo Ashram and also in Auroville only Sayana system is used. Only the tropical zodiac is the correct system. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Harish Kumar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " hari " <harimalla@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Harishkumar ji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The intention of PNB may be correct as far as our calenar has gone out of tract. But taking the sayan system is not a vedic suggestion, it is the Gregorian suggestion. The vedic suggestion would be to maintain the nirayan saytem and yet reform our calendar the vedic way. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This can easily be done by shifting our time frame by one whole month, so that our present Chaitra becoems the new Vaisakh or the present Meen sankranti becomes the new epochal Mesh sankranti. By this way the calendar is both reformed and the current nirayan system remains as it is. This method is the coordination of the concepts of two stalwarts of the nieteeth century- Bala ganagdhar Tilak and Shakar BK Dikshit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is the best way to reform our calendar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Harry " <harishkumar09@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Have the members of this group gone through the works of Patrizia Norelli Bachelet(PNB) and her views on astrology ? She advocates the Sayana Tropical Zodiac as the correct system. She traces the problems of India to a faulty calender and states rectification of it will make us perceive the Cosmic Harmonies which will bring forth the Satya Yuga the Age of Truth. What has been lost is the perfect measure of Time which needs to be retrieved. A resetting of the cosmic clock is necessary according to her for us to See the Truth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Clearly,its obvious to a child that Makara Sankranti should be celebrated on 21 December on Winter Solstice day,the shortest day of the year. But the current Nirayana system celebrates it 23 days later. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I give below a few useful links : > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > www.aeongroup. com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > www.patrizianorelli bachelet. com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 29, 2009 Report Share Posted November 29, 2009 Dear Rajji and other friends, Will it be possible to hear your comments on this matter? Bhattacharyaji and Kaulji are both biased persons.They both pretend to know more than what they really know.My experience is they do not mind to belittle the shastras by evading and misinterpreting, if it suits their egos.They are also fond of arguing for the sake of arguments. Thus may I request for some third party intervention or attention so we can proceed with unbiased analysis of the shastras and the truth.Thanks, Regards, Hari Malla , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya wrote: > > Dear friends, > > What careful examination did Harimalla do? Just writing the phrase " on careful examination " does not make it careful exammination. Harimalla should give up his tricks. This forum has matured people and they can see whether it was careful examination or repetion of Harimalla's old views. > > Once the Uttarayana occurred in the Dhanishtha nakshatra does not mean that it will always occur there. So calling the Uttarayana a sidereal phenomenon is not appropriate as the Nakshatras do not have ayana (ie. movement) but Uttarayana has " ayana " built into it by definition / etymology. If you observe you will see that Harimalla's " Nirayana uttarayana " will mean " No ayana Uttarayana " or " Uttarayana with with no ayana " because Nirayana means : Nih (no) + ayana (movement) = Nirayana. > > Varahamihira observed the night sky with his naked eye as the ancient astronomers used to do and this practice of naked eye observation continued till the end of the nineteenth century to study the positions of the Grahas and the nakshatras. These days we can get the data from the modern astronomical societies or institutions and cansee that the Uttarayana occurs in the Dhanu rashi. > > I am only asking that one should take the actual positions of the occurrence of the Uttarayana just like Darshaneyji had done. Darshaneyji should amalgamate his seasonal calendar with the Sidereal calendar so that he should be able to accommodate the festivals like Ram Navami in the shuklanavami of the purnimanta Chaitra month and Mahashivaratri in the Krishnachaturdashi of the purnimanta Magha month. > > It appears the subject is beyond the comprehension of Harimalla and he should desist from writing on it. > > Regards, > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > --- On Sat, 11/28/09, hari <harimalla wrote: > > hari <harimalla > Re: The Views of Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet > > Saturday, November 28, 2009, 7:49 AM >  > > > Dear RAjji, > > Bhattacharyaji seems to be right at the face of it. But on careful consideration we have to consider these points too. > > 1)Although Vedang jyotish does not say 'sun in dhanistha' is the 'niryan' postion, we know that since the sun postion is referred to the seteller position it is nothing but 'nirayan' postion, by the modern reckoning and definition of steller or sidereal as nirayan. > > > > 2)Secondly since this sun's steller position at dhanistha,was equated with uttarayan by the 6th sloka of Yajur vedanga jyotish, it was the nirayan uttarayan of those days, in the same sense, we take makar sankranti as the nirayan uttaryan sankranti of today. It is not that makar sankranti was the uttarayan at Barahmihir's time only, but it is still the uttarayan of today, as we clebrate uttarayan at makar sankranti even now a days, which is specifically mentioned as uttarayan in our present panchangas, even if shri Bhattacharyaji would like to deny that it is the present uttaryan. > > > > 3)Letus not forget what Barahmihir says in his Brihad samhita.We can easily deduce from his expression, that the sun in dhanistha postion was taken as uttarayan nearly upto Barhmihir's time, say for about 1700 years after the start of Vedanga jyotish.Since it remained nirayan for so long a time,surely our system is limited nirayan. > > But we cannot say it is indefintiely nirayan,as Bhattacharyaji would like to think, since Barah mihir did eventually correct it and shifted it to makar sankranti, which we have not been able to shift even today, when its date also has already expired. There is no use denying facts.Please know that it is the nirayan uttarayan of today, till we shift uttrayn to a new position again. > > 4) Last but not the least,If our system was indefinitely nirayan as shri Bhatachryaji claims, and if it is free from the tropical uttarayan, then we could have still used the 'sun in dhanistha' postion of vedanga jyotish as the nirayan uttarayan of today and there was no need for Barhmihir to correct it to make it compatible with the uttarayan of Barhmihir's time.Thus this shows that although our system is nirayan, but it is limited nirayan and we have to coorect it from time to time to make it compatible with the sayan uttarayan which is the actual uttarayan like Barahmihir had done. > > Regards, > > Hari Malla > > > > , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote: > > > > > > Dear friends, > > > > > > 1) > > > > > > Shri Harimalla himself admitted as follows: > > > > > > > > > Let me further clarify my own statement.My intention ws that Barahmihir > > > has mentioned in his Brihad Samhita, chapter Adityacharadhyaya that in > > > the olden days uttaryan occurred in dhanistha because it was true those > > > days, but by his time uttaryan had come to makar sankranti. > > > > > > > > > We are celebrating the Makar Sankranti when the Sun enters the Makar Rashi and that is unrelated to the Uttarayana. The Makar Sankranti now falls within the six-month period of Uttarayana starting from the Dhanu Rashi. But does he know that in the Mahabharata times the Sun entered the Makar Rashi in the Dakshinayana (ie. then the Makara Sankranti was in the Daksjinayana) and not in the Uttarayana? Any astronomer will tell him that. There is nothing like Nirayana uttarayana. In Vedanga Jyotisha it was not called Nirayana uttarayana. In the time of the composition of the the Vedanga jyotisha it occurred in the Nirayana Magha month and at that time it was the first seasonal month of the Sishir ritu, ie. the Tapas as Tapas always starts from the Uttarayana. > > > > > > > > > 2) > > > He also said > > > > > > Now my intention is that Barahmihir did not only change the mind set of > > > the blind people, but he shifted the nirayan uttarayan from the 'sun in > > > dhaninstha'position to the 'sun in makar sankranti'position. Shri > > > Rajji, Please give your opinion if I am right or not. > > > > > > > > > I repeat that Varahamihira did not change anything. The start of Uttarayana shifted due to the Precession of the earth and not due to Varahamihira and Varahamihira accepted that phenomenon gracefully. He did not want any credit or discredit that he had changed it. When the Winter Solstice occurred in his time he observed the position of the nakshatras in the sky and he knew that the Sun was not in the Dhanistha nakshatra but in the early part of the Makar rashi. In the ancient times the Jyotishis observed the night sky with their naked eye. Why to speak of the ancient times, even in the nineteenth century there were Jyotishis who observed the night sky for the position of the Grahas and the Nakshatras. Varahamihira simply acknowledged the effects of the precession of the earth. I think it is beyond Shri Harimalla's comprehension so he should leave it at that. Why should he rake his grey matter if he is finding it difficult to understand. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 11/27/09, hari <harimalla@ ..> wrote: > > > > > > hari <harimalla@ ..> > > > Re: The Views of Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet > > > To: > > > > > > Friday, November 27, 2009, 8:03 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Bhattacharyaji and RAjji, > > > > > > Let us please discuss this issue jointly.I find it difficult to explain what I mean to Bhattacharyaji. Thus I request shree RAjji also to join us here. I had said in my previous mail as follows: > > > > > > > > > > > > <Can you please explain what is meant by 'utttayan occurs when sun is in dhanistha or sun is in makar sanrkanti' at different times of our history.If they could be separated what was the necessity to shift the nirayan utttaryan from sun in dhanistha to sun in makar sankranti. If acoording to you indepeendant existaence of the two was OK, we could have as well continued with sun in dhanistha position of uttrayan even today. Why do you think they shifted it to makar sankranti as mentioned by Barhamihir.> > > > > > > Let me further clarify my own statement.My intention ws that Barahmihir has mentioned in his Brihad Samhita, chapter Adityacharadhyaya that in the olden days uttaryan occurred in dhanistha because it was true those days, but by his time uttaryan had come to makar sankranti. Sinc we are using makar sankranti even now as the 'nirayan' uttarayan,he did shift the nirayan uttarayan of vedanga jyotish,ie 'sun in dhannitatha' to the nirayan uttarayan as 'makar sankranti' which is continued even till this day. > > > > > > > > > > > > But shri Bhattacharyaji has replied thus: > > > > > > <We don't have to shift anything. We have only to recognise what is what. Now the Uttarayana starts when the Sun is in the Dhanu Rashi, ie. before the Makar Sankranti. In Varahamihira' s time the Uttarayana started in the beginning of the Makar Rashi. Ask any astronomer and he will confirm this. Varahamihira did not have to change anything except changing the mindset of the (intellectually) blind people.> > > > > > > Now my intention is that Barahmihir did not only change the mind set of the blind people, but he shifted the nirayan uttarayan from the 'sun in dhaninstha'position to the 'sun in makar sankranti'position. Shri Rajji, Please give your opinion if I am right or not. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shri Harimallaji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1) > > > > > > > Uttarayana means the period of six month of the northern course of the Sun. The Makar Sankranti is observed in Uttarayana even now though the start of the Uttarayana is before the Makar sankranti. During the period of Vedanga Jyotisha the Uttarayana started in the first haif of the Dhanistha Nakshatra ie. it occurred in the end of the Makar Rashi. Thus at that time the Makar Sankramana occurred before the start of the Uttarayana. Once explained a school boy will understand this and I hope this will not be difficult for you to understand. > > > > > > > 2) > > > > > > > We don't have to shift anything. We have only to recognise what is what. Now the Uttarayana starts when the Sun is in the Dhanu Rashi, ie. before the Makar Sankranti. In Varahamihira' s time the Uttarayana started in the beginning of the Makar Rashi. Ask any astronomer and he will confirm this. Varahamihira did not have to change anything except changing the mindset of the (intellectually) blind people. > > > > > > > 3) > > > > > > > In the Brahmana of the Veda we find that at one time the Mahashivaratri fell on the start of the Uttarayana, ie. on the first day of the seasonal month of Tapas (and the astronomers will tell you that this time period was in the third millennium BCE). These days it does not fall on the day of the start of Uttarayana. Ask the schoolboy (whom if you explain the above concept of Uttarayana) and he will tell you that in the Vedic reference the calendar followed for the Mahashivaratri was the Sidereal calendar and not the Seasonal calendar. Darshaneyji, in spite of his good intentions prposed that in 2010 it should be celebrated in 12 tapasya, which defies all logic. It is neither according the Seasonal calendar nor according to the Sidereal calendar. If he strictly follows the Seasonal calendar then he should ask people to celebrate the Mahashivaratri on the Winter solstice day by quoting the precedence in the Veda. Hope this will not > be > > > difficult for > > > > > > > you to undertand this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You profess to be so knowledgeable so are you pretending not to understand all these? If so please do not pretend and do not continue this unnnecessary mails so that the Jyotishis do not get disturbed in their main task of jyotish-discussions . I hope you do not like to make unsubstantiated statements like Shri Kaul, who short-sightaedy does all that just trying to win an argument. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 11/21/09, hari <harimalla@ ..> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hari <harimalla@ ..> > > > > > > > Re: The Views of Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Saturday, November 21, 2009, 12:35 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Bhatachryaji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Can you please explain what is meant by 'utttayan occurs when sun is in dhanistha or sun is in makar sanrkanti' at different times of our history.If they could be separated what was the necessity to shift the nirayan utttaryan from sun in dhanistha to sun in makar sankranti. If acoording to you indepeendant existaence of the two was OK, we could have as well continued with sun in dhanistha position of uttrayan even today. Why do you think they shifted it to makar sankranti as mentioned by Barhamihir.What was the need if your independant theory of sayan and nirayan was acceptable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please note that nowadays Shiva ratri is not linked with winter solstice at all.That may have been an old concept which has no bearing today. At present Shivaratri is at the mid point between winter solstice,which is Poush purnima(designated by start of maagha snana) and spring equinox which is Chaitra purnima (designated by Vaisakh snana). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you think coupling of the sayan and the nirayan concepts are not needed then please explain why Vedanga jyotish had to coordinate the sun in dhanistha position, uttarayan and also maagha sukla pratipada together into one by thesixth sloka.Thus to be Vedic we have to coordinate sayan sankranti, nirayan sankranti and the lunar tithi together.Thanks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear friends, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Everybody connected with calendar seems to avoid the Mahashivaratri issue. This year in February 2009 we observed the MahashivaratriÃÆ'‚ two months after the Winter Solstice in December 2008, whereas in the Kaushitaki Brahman the Shivaratri coincided with the Winter solstice. This is a clear case of ignoring the Sayana calendar for observing one of the most important festival of the Hindus. If one respects the Vedas and the Vedic calendar then any proposedcalendar should be able to explain the growing distance between the date of the Winter Solstice and the date of the Mahashivararti. Friends, who are genuinely interested in Vidic Calendar please wake up and look at the case mentioned, which will tell you that the Sayana and the Nirayana Calendars can coexist side by side without interfering with each other.ÃÆ'‚ Approximately every 25,800 years the the angular difference between the Sayana and the Nirayana positions will be > repeated. No > > > compromise of any > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sort will be required in Vedic calendar. A time will come when the Mahashivaratri will again coincide with the Winter Solstice. Of course you and me may not be there to see that happen. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 11/20/09, hari <harimalla@ ..> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hari <harimalla@ ..> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Re: The Views of Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Friday, November 20, 2009, 7:36 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Harry, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kindly confirm if the vedic correlationship I have drawn is satisfactory to you or not. Step by step we should proceed to arrive at the correct way of reforming our vedic calendar. This correction is of dire necessity now, since our populace are celebrating the festivals on wrong days,say lagging one month behind the schedule. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The lunar dates are controlled by the sidereal sankrantis as you must be well knowing. But for them to get the actual seasonal value these same tithis must also touch the sayan dates. For example, during the sidhanta jyotish period,poush purnima was the uttaryan tithi which is the celebrations dates even today, and during the vedanga jyotiish period maagha sukla pratipada was the uttaryan tithi. Although they were related to the makar sankanti and the sun in dhanistha positions respectively, both of which are nirayan dates, they also touched the sayan uttarayan dates and got the true tropical values as well in a coordinated manner during the repective epochs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But now since poush purnima does not touch the actual uttrayan date, this makes it necesssary to correct our vedic calendar again as was done before, as mentioned by Brahmihir in his Brihad samhita.He has said 'In the old scriptures it is mentioned that uttarayan occurs when the sun was in dhanistha nakshyatra, because it was true those days. But now uttrayan occurs when the sun is in makar sankranti, which can be verified practically. ' Thus by shifting the sidereal uttarayan to makar sankranti and the uttarayan tithi to poush purnima, which is evident by the shift of maagha snana,the coordination of the tropical uttaryan date and the sidereal utrarayan date by the respective tithi was maintained after reformation those days, say less than two thousand years ago. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Should we also not do the reformation in the same way, to satisfy the vedic coordination clause specified by the sixth sloka of yajur vedang jyotish is my question. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please give your valuable suggestion. Thank you, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Harry " <harishkumar09@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Hari Malla, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is the Sayana system that is truly Vedic and thats exactly what the Rishi's used. The Nirayana system is non-vedic. Its not based on proper understanding of the Vedic Sacrifice. Sri Aurobindo came to give the correct interpretation of the Veda. And in the Aurobindo Ashram and also in Auroville only Sayana system is used. Only the tropical zodiac is the correct system. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Harish Kumar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " hari " <harimalla@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Harishkumar ji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The intention of PNB may be correct as far as our calenar has gone out of tract. But taking the sayan system is not a vedic suggestion, it is the Gregorian suggestion. The vedic suggestion would be to maintain the nirayan saytem and yet reform our calendar the vedic way. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This can easily be done by shifting our time frame by one whole month, so that our present Chaitra becoems the new Vaisakh or the present Meen sankranti becomes the new epochal Mesh sankranti. By this way the calendar is both reformed and the current nirayan system remains as it is. This method is the coordination of the concepts of two stalwarts of the nieteeth century- Bala ganagdhar Tilak and Shakar BK Dikshit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is the best way to reform our calendar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Harry " <harishkumar09@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Have the members of this group gone through the works of Patrizia Norelli Bachelet(PNB) and her views on astrology ? She advocates the Sayana Tropical Zodiac as the correct system. She traces the problems of India to a faulty calender and states rectification of it will make us perceive the Cosmic Harmonies which will bring forth the Satya Yuga the Age of Truth. What has been lost is the perfect measure of Time which needs to be retrieved. A resetting of the cosmic clock is necessary according to her for us to See the Truth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Clearly,its obvious to a child that Makara Sankranti should be celebrated on 21 December on Winter Solstice day,the shortest day of the year. But the current Nirayana system celebrates it 23 days later. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I give below a few useful links : > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > www.aeongroup. com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > www.patrizianorelli bachelet. com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Harry " <harishkumar09@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Hari Malla, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is the Sayana system that is truly Vedic and thats exactly what the Rishi's used. The Nirayana system is non-vedic. Its not based on proper understanding of the Vedic Sacrifice. Sri Aurobindo came to give the correct interpretation of the Veda. And in the Aurobindo Ashram and also in Auroville only Sayana system is used. Only the tropical zodiac is the correct system. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Harish Kumar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " hari " <harimalla@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Harishkumar ji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The intention of PNB may be correct as far as our calenar has gone out of tract. But taking the sayan system is not a vedic suggestion, it is the Gregorian suggestion. The vedic suggestion would be to maintain the nirayan saytem and yet reform our calendar the vedic way. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This can easily be done by shifting our time frame by one whole month, so that our present Chaitra becoems the new Vaisakh or the present Meen sankranti becomes the new epochal Mesh sankranti. By this way the calendar is both reformed and the current nirayan system remains as it is. This method is the coordination of the concepts of two stalwarts of the nieteeth century- Bala ganagdhar Tilak and Shakar BK Dikshit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is the best way to reform our calendar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Harry " <harishkumar09@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Have the members of this group gone through the works of Patrizia Norelli Bachelet(PNB) and her views on astrology ? She advocates the Sayana Tropical Zodiac as the correct system. She traces the problems of India to a faulty calender and states rectification of it will make us perceive the Cosmic Harmonies which will bring forth the Satya Yuga the Age of Truth. What has been lost is the perfect measure of Time which needs to be retrieved. A resetting of the cosmic clock is necessary according to her for us to See the Truth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Clearly,its obvious to a child that Makara Sankranti should be celebrated on 21 December on Winter Solstice day,the shortest day of the year. But the current Nirayana system celebrates it 23 days later. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I give below a few useful links : > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > www.aeongroup. com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > www.patrizianorelli bachelet. com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2009 Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 Dear Hari ji (and others in the same boat!), If you are truly convinced that you are on the right path, and your thinking is correct, why worry about what others think or comment? But, if you are not fully convinced, then perhaps such a feeling of 'discomfort' may be a godsend that is reminding you to look AGAIN! Nindak Niyaray Raakhiyay, Aangan Kuti Chabbaai ... As the Great Mystic Poet said! Rohiniranjan , " hari " <harimalla wrote: > > Dear Rajji and other friends, > Will it be possible to hear your comments on this matter? Bhattacharyaji and Kaulji are both biased persons.They both pretend to know more than what they really know.My experience is they do not mind to belittle the shastras by evading and misinterpreting, if it suits their egos.They are also fond of arguing for the sake of arguments. > Thus may I request for some third party intervention or attention so we can proceed with unbiased analysis of the shastras and the truth.Thanks, > Regards, > Hari Malla > > > > , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya@> wrote: > > > > Dear friends, > > > > What careful examination did Harimalla do? Just writing the phrase " on careful examination " does not make it careful exammination. Harimalla should give up his tricks. This forum has matured people and they can see whether it was careful examination or repetion of Harimalla's old views. > > > > Once the Uttarayana occurred in the Dhanishtha nakshatra does not mean that it will always occur there. So calling the Uttarayana a sidereal phenomenon is not appropriate as the Nakshatras do not have ayana (ie. movement) but Uttarayana has " ayana " built into it by definition / etymology. If you observe you will see that Harimalla's " Nirayana uttarayana " will mean " No ayana Uttarayana " or " Uttarayana with with no ayana " because Nirayana means : Nih (no) + ayana (movement) = Nirayana. > > > > Varahamihira observed the night sky with his naked eye as the ancient astronomers used to do and this practice of naked eye observation continued till the end of the nineteenth century to study the positions of the Grahas and the nakshatras. These days we can get the data from the modern astronomical societies or institutions and cansee that the Uttarayana occurs in the Dhanu rashi. > > > > I am only asking that one should take the actual positions of the occurrence of the Uttarayana just like Darshaneyji had done. Darshaneyji should amalgamate his seasonal calendar with the Sidereal calendar so that he should be able to accommodate the festivals like Ram Navami in the shuklanavami of the purnimanta Chaitra month and Mahashivaratri in the Krishnachaturdashi of the purnimanta Magha month. > > > > It appears the subject is beyond the comprehension of Harimalla and he should desist from writing on it. > > > > Regards, > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 11/28/09, hari <harimalla@> wrote: > > > > hari <harimalla@> > > Re: The Views of Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet > > > > Saturday, November 28, 2009, 7:49 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear RAjji, > > > > Bhattacharyaji seems to be right at the face of it. But on careful consideration we have to consider these points too. > > > > 1)Although Vedang jyotish does not say 'sun in dhanistha' is the 'niryan' postion, we know that since the sun postion is referred to the seteller position it is nothing but 'nirayan' postion, by the modern reckoning and definition of steller or sidereal as nirayan. > > > > > > > > 2)Secondly since this sun's steller position at dhanistha,was equated with uttarayan by the 6th sloka of Yajur vedanga jyotish, it was the nirayan uttarayan of those days, in the same sense, we take makar sankranti as the nirayan uttaryan sankranti of today. It is not that makar sankranti was the uttarayan at Barahmihir's time only, but it is still the uttarayan of today, as we clebrate uttarayan at makar sankranti even now a days, which is specifically mentioned as uttarayan in our present panchangas, even if shri Bhattacharyaji would like to deny that it is the present uttaryan. > > > > > > > > 3)Letus not forget what Barahmihir says in his Brihad samhita.We can easily deduce from his expression, that the sun in dhanistha postion was taken as uttarayan nearly upto Barhmihir's time, say for about 1700 years after the start of Vedanga jyotish.Since it remained nirayan for so long a time,surely our system is limited nirayan. > > > > But we cannot say it is indefintiely nirayan,as Bhattacharyaji would like to think, since Barah mihir did eventually correct it and shifted it to makar sankranti, which we have not been able to shift even today, when its date also has already expired. There is no use denying facts.Please know that it is the nirayan uttarayan of today, till we shift uttrayn to a new position again. > > > > 4) Last but not the least,If our system was indefinitely nirayan as shri Bhatachryaji claims, and if it is free from the tropical uttarayan, then we could have still used the 'sun in dhanistha' postion of vedanga jyotish as the nirayan uttarayan of today and there was no need for Barhmihir to correct it to make it compatible with the uttarayan of Barhmihir's time.Thus this shows that although our system is nirayan, but it is limited nirayan and we have to coorect it from time to time to make it compatible with the sayan uttarayan which is the actual uttarayan like Barahmihir had done. > > > > Regards, > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear friends, > > > > > > > > > > 1) > > > > > > > > > > Shri Harimalla himself admitted as follows: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let me further clarify my own statement.My intention ws that Barahmihir > > > > > has mentioned in his Brihad Samhita, chapter Adityacharadhyaya that in > > > > > the olden days uttaryan occurred in dhanistha because it was true those > > > > > days, but by his time uttaryan had come to makar sankranti. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We are celebrating the Makar Sankranti when the Sun enters the Makar Rashi and that is unrelated to the Uttarayana. The Makar Sankranti now falls within the six-month period of Uttarayana starting from the Dhanu Rashi. But does he know that in the Mahabharata times the Sun entered the Makar Rashi in the Dakshinayana (ie. then the Makara Sankranti was in the Daksjinayana) and not in the Uttarayana? Any astronomer will tell him that. There is nothing like Nirayana uttarayana. In Vedanga Jyotisha it was not called Nirayana uttarayana. In the time of the composition of the the Vedanga jyotisha it occurred in the Nirayana Magha month and at that time it was the first seasonal month of the Sishir ritu, ie. the Tapas as Tapas always starts from the Uttarayana. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2) > > > > > He also said > > > > > > > > > > Now my intention is that Barahmihir did not only change the mind set of > > > > > the blind people, but he shifted the nirayan uttarayan from the 'sun in > > > > > dhaninstha'position to the 'sun in makar sankranti'position. Shri > > > > > Rajji, Please give your opinion if I am right or not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I repeat that Varahamihira did not change anything. The start of Uttarayana shifted due to the Precession of the earth and not due to Varahamihira and Varahamihira accepted that phenomenon gracefully. He did not want any credit or discredit that he had changed it. When the Winter Solstice occurred in his time he observed the position of the nakshatras in the sky and he knew that the Sun was not in the Dhanistha nakshatra but in the early part of the Makar rashi. In the ancient times the Jyotishis observed the night sky with their naked eye. Why to speak of the ancient times, even in the nineteenth century there were Jyotishis who observed the night sky for the position of the Grahas and the Nakshatras. Varahamihira simply acknowledged the effects of the precession of the earth. I think it is beyond Shri Harimalla's comprehension so he should leave it at that. Why should he rake his grey matter if he is finding it difficult to understand. > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 11/27/09, hari <harimalla@ ..> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > hari <harimalla@ ..> > > > > > Re: The Views of Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet > > > > > To: > > > > > > > > > > Friday, November 27, 2009, 8:03 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Bhattacharyaji and RAjji, > > > > > > > > > > Let us please discuss this issue jointly.I find it difficult to explain what I mean to Bhattacharyaji. Thus I request shree RAjji also to join us here. I had said in my previous mail as follows: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <Can you please explain what is meant by 'utttayan occurs when sun is in dhanistha or sun is in makar sanrkanti' at different times of our history.If they could be separated what was the necessity to shift the nirayan utttaryan from sun in dhanistha to sun in makar sankranti. If acoording to you indepeendant existaence of the two was OK, we could have as well continued with sun in dhanistha position of uttrayan even today. Why do you think they shifted it to makar sankranti as mentioned by Barhamihir.> > > > > > > > > > > Let me further clarify my own statement.My intention ws that Barahmihir has mentioned in his Brihad Samhita, chapter Adityacharadhyaya that in the olden days uttaryan occurred in dhanistha because it was true those days, but by his time uttaryan had come to makar sankranti. Sinc we are using makar sankranti even now as the 'nirayan' uttarayan,he did shift the nirayan uttarayan of vedanga jyotish,ie 'sun in dhannitatha' to the nirayan uttarayan as 'makar sankranti' which is continued even till this day. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But shri Bhattacharyaji has replied thus: > > > > > > > > > > <We don't have to shift anything. We have only to recognise what is what. Now the Uttarayana starts when the Sun is in the Dhanu Rashi, ie. before the Makar Sankranti. In Varahamihira' s time the Uttarayana started in the beginning of the Makar Rashi. Ask any astronomer and he will confirm this. Varahamihira did not have to change anything except changing the mindset of the (intellectually) blind people.> > > > > > > > > > > Now my intention is that Barahmihir did not only change the mind set of the blind people, but he shifted the nirayan uttarayan from the 'sun in dhaninstha'position to the 'sun in makar sankranti'position. Shri Rajji, Please give your opinion if I am right or not. > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shri Harimallaji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1) > > > > > > > > > > > Uttarayana means the period of six month of the northern course of the Sun. The Makar Sankranti is observed in Uttarayana even now though the start of the Uttarayana is before the Makar sankranti. During the period of Vedanga Jyotisha the Uttarayana started in the first haif of the Dhanistha Nakshatra ie. it occurred in the end of the Makar Rashi. Thus at that time the Makar Sankramana occurred before the start of the Uttarayana. Once explained a school boy will understand this and I hope this will not be difficult for you to understand. > > > > > > > > > > > 2) > > > > > > > > > > > We don't have to shift anything. We have only to recognise what is what. Now the Uttarayana starts when the Sun is in the Dhanu Rashi, ie. before the Makar Sankranti. In Varahamihira' s time the Uttarayana started in the beginning of the Makar Rashi. Ask any astronomer and he will confirm this. Varahamihira did not have to change anything except changing the mindset of the (intellectually) blind people. > > > > > > > > > > > 3) > > > > > > > > > > > In the Brahmana of the Veda we find that at one time the Mahashivaratri fell on the start of the Uttarayana, ie. on the first day of the seasonal month of Tapas (and the astronomers will tell you that this time period was in the third millennium BCE). These days it does not fall on the day of the start of Uttarayana. Ask the schoolboy (whom if you explain the above concept of Uttarayana) and he will tell you that in the Vedic reference the calendar followed for the Mahashivaratri was the Sidereal calendar and not the Seasonal calendar. Darshaneyji, in spite of his good intentions prposed that in 2010 it should be celebrated in 12 tapasya, which defies all logic. It is neither according the Seasonal calendar nor according to the Sidereal calendar. If he strictly follows the Seasonal calendar then he should ask people to celebrate the Mahashivaratri on the Winter solstice day by quoting the precedence in the Veda. Hope this will not > > be > > > > > difficult for > > > > > > > > > > > you to undertand this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You profess to be so knowledgeable so are you pretending not to understand all these? If so please do not pretend and do not continue this unnnecessary mails so that the Jyotishis do not get disturbed in their main task of jyotish-discussions . I hope you do not like to make unsubstantiated statements like Shri Kaul, who short-sightaedy does all that just trying to win an argument. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 11/21/09, hari <harimalla@ ..> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hari <harimalla@ ..> > > > > > > > > > > > Re: The Views of Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Saturday, November 21, 2009, 12:35 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Bhatachryaji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Can you please explain what is meant by 'utttayan occurs when sun is in dhanistha or sun is in makar sanrkanti' at different times of our history.If they could be separated what was the necessity to shift the nirayan utttaryan from sun in dhanistha to sun in makar sankranti. If acoording to you indepeendant existaence of the two was OK, we could have as well continued with sun in dhanistha position of uttrayan even today. Why do you think they shifted it to makar sankranti as mentioned by Barhamihir.What was the need if your independant theory of sayan and nirayan was acceptable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please note that nowadays Shiva ratri is not linked with winter solstice at all.That may have been an old concept which has no bearing today. At present Shivaratri is at the mid point between winter solstice,which is Poush purnima(designated by start of maagha snana) and spring equinox which is Chaitra purnima (designated by Vaisakh snana). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you think coupling of the sayan and the nirayan concepts are not needed then please explain why Vedanga jyotish had to coordinate the sun in dhanistha position, uttarayan and also maagha sukla pratipada together into one by thesixth sloka.Thus to be Vedic we have to coordinate sayan sankranti, nirayan sankranti and the lunar tithi together.Thanks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear friends, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Everybody connected with calendar seems to avoid the Mahashivaratri issue. This year in February 2009 we observed the MahashivaratriÃÆ'‚ two months after the Winter Solstice in December 2008, whereas in the Kaushitaki Brahman the Shivaratri coincided with the Winter solstice. This is a clear case of ignoring the Sayana calendar for observing one of the most important festival of the Hindus. If one respects the Vedas and the Vedic calendar then any proposedcalendar should be able to explain the growing distance between the date of the Winter Solstice and the date of the Mahashivararti. Friends, who are genuinely interested in Vidic Calendar please wake up and look at the case mentioned, which will tell you that the Sayana and the Nirayana Calendars can coexist side by side without interfering with each other.ÃÆ'‚ Approximately every 25,800 years the the angular difference between the Sayana and the Nirayana positions will be > > repeated. No > > > > > compromise of any > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sort will be required in Vedic calendar. A time will come when the Mahashivaratri will again coincide with the Winter Solstice. Of course you and me may not be there to see that happen. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 11/20/09, hari <harimalla@ ..> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hari <harimalla@ ..> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Re: The Views of Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Friday, November 20, 2009, 7:36 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Harry, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kindly confirm if the vedic correlationship I have drawn is satisfactory to you or not. Step by step we should proceed to arrive at the correct way of reforming our vedic calendar. This correction is of dire necessity now, since our populace are celebrating the festivals on wrong days,say lagging one month behind the schedule. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The lunar dates are controlled by the sidereal sankrantis as you must be well knowing. But for them to get the actual seasonal value these same tithis must also touch the sayan dates. For example, during the sidhanta jyotish period,poush purnima was the uttaryan tithi which is the celebrations dates even today, and during the vedanga jyotiish period maagha sukla pratipada was the uttaryan tithi. Although they were related to the makar sankanti and the sun in dhanistha positions respectively, both of which are nirayan dates, they also touched the sayan uttarayan dates and got the true tropical values as well in a coordinated manner during the repective epochs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But now since poush purnima does not touch the actual uttrayan date, this makes it necesssary to correct our vedic calendar again as was done before, as mentioned by Brahmihir in his Brihad samhita.He has said 'In the old scriptures it is mentioned that uttarayan occurs when the sun was in dhanistha nakshyatra, because it was true those days. But now uttrayan occurs when the sun is in makar sankranti, which can be verified practically. ' Thus by shifting the sidereal uttarayan to makar sankranti and the uttarayan tithi to poush purnima, which is evident by the shift of maagha snana,the coordination of the tropical uttaryan date and the sidereal utrarayan date by the respective tithi was maintained after reformation those days, say less than two thousand years ago. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Should we also not do the reformation in the same way, to satisfy the vedic coordination clause specified by the sixth sloka of yajur vedang jyotish is my question. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please give your valuable suggestion. Thank you, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Harry " <harishkumar09@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Hari Malla, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is the Sayana system that is truly Vedic and thats exactly what the Rishi's used. The Nirayana system is non-vedic. Its not based on proper understanding of the Vedic Sacrifice. Sri Aurobindo came to give the correct interpretation of the Veda. And in the Aurobindo Ashram and also in Auroville only Sayana system is used. Only the tropical zodiac is the correct system. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Harish Kumar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " hari " <harimalla@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Harishkumar ji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The intention of PNB may be correct as far as our calenar has gone out of tract. But taking the sayan system is not a vedic suggestion, it is the Gregorian suggestion. The vedic suggestion would be to maintain the nirayan saytem and yet reform our calendar the vedic way. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This can easily be done by shifting our time frame by one whole month, so that our present Chaitra becoems the new Vaisakh or the present Meen sankranti becomes the new epochal Mesh sankranti. By this way the calendar is both reformed and the current nirayan system remains as it is. This method is the coordination of the concepts of two stalwarts of the nieteeth century- Bala ganagdhar Tilak and Shakar BK Dikshit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is the best way to reform our calendar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Harry " <harishkumar09@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Have the members of this group gone through the works of Patrizia Norelli Bachelet(PNB) and her views on astrology ? She advocates the Sayana Tropical Zodiac as the correct system. She traces the problems of India to a faulty calender and states rectification of it will make us perceive the Cosmic Harmonies which will bring forth the Satya Yuga the Age of Truth. What has been lost is the perfect measure of Time which needs to be retrieved. A resetting of the cosmic clock is necessary according to her for us to See the Truth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Clearly,its obvious to a child that Makara Sankranti should be celebrated on 21 December on Winter Solstice day,the shortest day of the year. But the current Nirayana system celebrates it 23 days later. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I give below a few useful links : > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > www.aeongroup. com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > www.patrizianorelli bachelet. com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Harry " <harishkumar09@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Hari Malla, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is the Sayana system that is truly Vedic and thats exactly what the Rishi's used. The Nirayana system is non-vedic. Its not based on proper understanding of the Vedic Sacrifice. Sri Aurobindo came to give the correct interpretation of the Veda. And in the Aurobindo Ashram and also in Auroville only Sayana system is used. Only the tropical zodiac is the correct system. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Harish Kumar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " hari " <harimalla@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Harishkumar ji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The intention of PNB may be correct as far as our calenar has gone out of tract. But taking the sayan system is not a vedic suggestion, it is the Gregorian suggestion. The vedic suggestion would be to maintain the nirayan saytem and yet reform our calendar the vedic way. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This can easily be done by shifting our time frame by one whole month, so that our present Chaitra becoems the new Vaisakh or the present Meen sankranti becomes the new epochal Mesh sankranti. By this way the calendar is both reformed and the current nirayan system remains as it is. This method is the coordination of the concepts of two stalwarts of the nieteeth century- Bala ganagdhar Tilak and Shakar BK Dikshit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is the best way to reform our calendar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Harry " <harishkumar09@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Have the members of this group gone through the works of Patrizia Norelli Bachelet(PNB) and her views on astrology ? She advocates the Sayana Tropical Zodiac as the correct system. She traces the problems of India to a faulty calender and states rectification of it will make us perceive the Cosmic Harmonies which will bring forth the Satya Yuga the Age of Truth. What has been lost is the perfect measure of Time which needs to be retrieved. A resetting of the cosmic clock is necessary according to her for us to See the Truth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Clearly,its obvious to a child that Makara Sankranti should be celebrated on 21 December on Winter Solstice day,the shortest day of the year. But the current Nirayana system celebrates it 23 days later. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I give below a few useful links : > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > www.aeongroup. com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > www.patrizianorelli bachelet. com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2009 Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 Dear Rohiniji, Certainly your words are both sagacioius and comforting.Thankyou for the same. The cause of my worry is, if some so called wise persons hamper the truth or themeaning of the scriptures,then the massses suffer for a longer time. My woorry is mainly for the massses, not that the vedic truth will not shine one day in its own glory. As you have aptly said both the western suit and the kurta being in the same wardrobe,so also the vedic truth is that both the sayan and the nirayan concepts are limited within the same full moon or pratipada tithi zone.This is surely the meaning of the sixth sloka of yajur vedanga jyotish- " When the sun and the moon are in dhanistha, then the five year yuga, month of maagha, tapa sukla (pratipada) and uttarayan start together. " Regards, Hari Malla , " rohinicrystal " <jyotish_vani wrote: > > Dear Hari ji (and others in the same boat!), > > If you are truly convinced that you are on the right path, and your thinking is correct, why worry about what others think or comment? > > But, if you are not fully convinced, then perhaps such a feeling of 'discomfort' may be a godsend that is reminding you to look AGAIN! > > Nindak Niyaray Raakhiyay, Aangan Kuti Chabbaai ... > > As the Great Mystic Poet said! > > Rohiniranjan > > > , " hari " <harimalla@> wrote: > > > > Dear Rajji and other friends, > > Will it be possible to hear your comments on this matter? Bhattacharyaji and Kaulji are both biased persons.They both pretend to know more than what they really know.My experience is they do not mind to belittle the shastras by evading and misinterpreting, if it suits their egos.They are also fond of arguing for the sake of arguments. > > Thus may I request for some third party intervention or attention so we can proceed with unbiased analysis of the shastras and the truth.Thanks, > > Regards, > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya@> wrote: > > > > > > Dear friends, > > > > > > What careful examination did Harimalla do? Just writing the phrase " on careful examination " does not make it careful exammination. Harimalla should give up his tricks. This forum has matured people and they can see whether it was careful examination or repetion of Harimalla's old views. > > > > > > Once the Uttarayana occurred in the Dhanishtha nakshatra does not mean that it will always occur there. So calling the Uttarayana a sidereal phenomenon is not appropriate as the Nakshatras do not have ayana (ie. movement) but Uttarayana has " ayana " built into it by definition / etymology. If you observe you will see that Harimalla's " Nirayana uttarayana " will mean " No ayana Uttarayana " or " Uttarayana with with no ayana " because Nirayana means : Nih (no) + ayana (movement) = Nirayana. > > > > > > Varahamihira observed the night sky with his naked eye as the ancient astronomers used to do and this practice of naked eye observation continued till the end of the nineteenth century to study the positions of the Grahas and the nakshatras. These days we can get the data from the modern astronomical societies or institutions and cansee that the Uttarayana occurs in the Dhanu rashi. > > > > > > I am only asking that one should take the actual positions of the occurrence of the Uttarayana just like Darshaneyji had done. Darshaneyji should amalgamate his seasonal calendar with the Sidereal calendar so that he should be able to accommodate the festivals like Ram Navami in the shuklanavami of the purnimanta Chaitra month and Mahashivaratri in the Krishnachaturdashi of the purnimanta Magha month. > > > > > > It appears the subject is beyond the comprehension of Harimalla and he should desist from writing on it. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 11/28/09, hari <harimalla@> wrote: > > > > > > hari <harimalla@> > > > Re: The Views of Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet > > > > > > Saturday, November 28, 2009, 7:49 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear RAjji, > > > > > > Bhattacharyaji seems to be right at the face of it. But on careful consideration we have to consider these points too. > > > > > > 1)Although Vedang jyotish does not say 'sun in dhanistha' is the 'niryan' postion, we know that since the sun postion is referred to the seteller position it is nothing but 'nirayan' postion, by the modern reckoning and definition of steller or sidereal as nirayan. > > > > > > > > > > > > 2)Secondly since this sun's steller position at dhanistha,was equated with uttarayan by the 6th sloka of Yajur vedanga jyotish, it was the nirayan uttarayan of those days, in the same sense, we take makar sankranti as the nirayan uttaryan sankranti of today. It is not that makar sankranti was the uttarayan at Barahmihir's time only, but it is still the uttarayan of today, as we clebrate uttarayan at makar sankranti even now a days, which is specifically mentioned as uttarayan in our present panchangas, even if shri Bhattacharyaji would like to deny that it is the present uttaryan. > > > > > > > > > > > > 3)Letus not forget what Barahmihir says in his Brihad samhita.We can easily deduce from his expression, that the sun in dhanistha postion was taken as uttarayan nearly upto Barhmihir's time, say for about 1700 years after the start of Vedanga jyotish.Since it remained nirayan for so long a time,surely our system is limited nirayan. > > > > > > But we cannot say it is indefintiely nirayan,as Bhattacharyaji would like to think, since Barah mihir did eventually correct it and shifted it to makar sankranti, which we have not been able to shift even today, when its date also has already expired. There is no use denying facts.Please know that it is the nirayan uttarayan of today, till we shift uttrayn to a new position again. > > > > > > 4) Last but not the least,If our system was indefinitely nirayan as shri Bhatachryaji claims, and if it is free from the tropical uttarayan, then we could have still used the 'sun in dhanistha' postion of vedanga jyotish as the nirayan uttarayan of today and there was no need for Barhmihir to correct it to make it compatible with the uttarayan of Barhmihir's time.Thus this shows that although our system is nirayan, but it is limited nirayan and we have to coorect it from time to time to make it compatible with the sayan uttarayan which is the actual uttarayan like Barahmihir had done. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear friends, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shri Harimalla himself admitted as follows: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let me further clarify my own statement.My intention ws that Barahmihir > > > > > > > has mentioned in his Brihad Samhita, chapter Adityacharadhyaya that in > > > > > > > the olden days uttaryan occurred in dhanistha because it was true those > > > > > > > days, but by his time uttaryan had come to makar sankranti. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We are celebrating the Makar Sankranti when the Sun enters the Makar Rashi and that is unrelated to the Uttarayana. The Makar Sankranti now falls within the six-month period of Uttarayana starting from the Dhanu Rashi. But does he know that in the Mahabharata times the Sun entered the Makar Rashi in the Dakshinayana (ie. then the Makara Sankranti was in the Daksjinayana) and not in the Uttarayana? Any astronomer will tell him that. There is nothing like Nirayana uttarayana. In Vedanga Jyotisha it was not called Nirayana uttarayana. In the time of the composition of the the Vedanga jyotisha it occurred in the Nirayana Magha month and at that time it was the first seasonal month of the Sishir ritu, ie. the Tapas as Tapas always starts from the Uttarayana. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2) > > > > > > > He also said > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now my intention is that Barahmihir did not only change the mind set of > > > > > > > the blind people, but he shifted the nirayan uttarayan from the 'sun in > > > > > > > dhaninstha'position to the 'sun in makar sankranti'position. Shri > > > > > > > Rajji, Please give your opinion if I am right or not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I repeat that Varahamihira did not change anything. The start of Uttarayana shifted due to the Precession of the earth and not due to Varahamihira and Varahamihira accepted that phenomenon gracefully. He did not want any credit or discredit that he had changed it. When the Winter Solstice occurred in his time he observed the position of the nakshatras in the sky and he knew that the Sun was not in the Dhanistha nakshatra but in the early part of the Makar rashi. In the ancient times the Jyotishis observed the night sky with their naked eye. Why to speak of the ancient times, even in the nineteenth century there were Jyotishis who observed the night sky for the position of the Grahas and the Nakshatras. Varahamihira simply acknowledged the effects of the precession of the earth. I think it is beyond Shri Harimalla's comprehension so he should leave it at that. Why should he rake his grey matter if he is finding it difficult to understand. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 11/27/09, hari <harimalla@ ..> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hari <harimalla@ ..> > > > > > > > Re: The Views of Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet > > > > > > > To: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Friday, November 27, 2009, 8:03 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Bhattacharyaji and RAjji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let us please discuss this issue jointly.I find it difficult to explain what I mean to Bhattacharyaji. Thus I request shree RAjji also to join us here. I had said in my previous mail as follows: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <Can you please explain what is meant by 'utttayan occurs when sun is in dhanistha or sun is in makar sanrkanti' at different times of our history.If they could be separated what was the necessity to shift the nirayan utttaryan from sun in dhanistha to sun in makar sankranti. If acoording to you indepeendant existaence of the two was OK, we could have as well continued with sun in dhanistha position of uttrayan even today. Why do you think they shifted it to makar sankranti as mentioned by Barhamihir.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let me further clarify my own statement.My intention ws that Barahmihir has mentioned in his Brihad Samhita, chapter Adityacharadhyaya that in the olden days uttaryan occurred in dhanistha because it was true those days, but by his time uttaryan had come to makar sankranti. Sinc we are using makar sankranti even now as the 'nirayan' uttarayan,he did shift the nirayan uttarayan of vedanga jyotish,ie 'sun in dhannitatha' to the nirayan uttarayan as 'makar sankranti' which is continued even till this day. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But shri Bhattacharyaji has replied thus: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <We don't have to shift anything. We have only to recognise what is what. Now the Uttarayana starts when the Sun is in the Dhanu Rashi, ie. before the Makar Sankranti. In Varahamihira' s time the Uttarayana started in the beginning of the Makar Rashi. Ask any astronomer and he will confirm this. Varahamihira did not have to change anything except changing the mindset of the (intellectually) blind people.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now my intention is that Barahmihir did not only change the mind set of the blind people, but he shifted the nirayan uttarayan from the 'sun in dhaninstha'position to the 'sun in makar sankranti'position. Shri Rajji, Please give your opinion if I am right or not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shri Harimallaji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Uttarayana means the period of six month of the northern course of the Sun. The Makar Sankranti is observed in Uttarayana even now though the start of the Uttarayana is before the Makar sankranti. During the period of Vedanga Jyotisha the Uttarayana started in the first haif of the Dhanistha Nakshatra ie. it occurred in the end of the Makar Rashi. Thus at that time the Makar Sankramana occurred before the start of the Uttarayana. Once explained a school boy will understand this and I hope this will not be difficult for you to understand. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We don't have to shift anything. We have only to recognise what is what. Now the Uttarayana starts when the Sun is in the Dhanu Rashi, ie. before the Makar Sankranti. In Varahamihira' s time the Uttarayana started in the beginning of the Makar Rashi. Ask any astronomer and he will confirm this. Varahamihira did not have to change anything except changing the mindset of the (intellectually) blind people. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In the Brahmana of the Veda we find that at one time the Mahashivaratri fell on the start of the Uttarayana, ie. on the first day of the seasonal month of Tapas (and the astronomers will tell you that this time period was in the third millennium BCE). These days it does not fall on the day of the start of Uttarayana. Ask the schoolboy (whom if you explain the above concept of Uttarayana) and he will tell you that in the Vedic reference the calendar followed for the Mahashivaratri was the Sidereal calendar and not the Seasonal calendar. Darshaneyji, in spite of his good intentions prposed that in 2010 it should be celebrated in 12 tapasya, which defies all logic. It is neither according the Seasonal calendar nor according to the Sidereal calendar. If he strictly follows the Seasonal calendar then he should ask people to celebrate the Mahashivaratri on the Winter solstice day by quoting the precedence in the Veda. Hope this will not > > > be > > > > > > > difficult for > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you to undertand this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You profess to be so knowledgeable so are you pretending not to understand all these? If so please do not pretend and do not continue this unnnecessary mails so that the Jyotishis do not get disturbed in their main task of jyotish-discussions . I hope you do not like to make unsubstantiated statements like Shri Kaul, who short-sightaedy does all that just trying to win an argument. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 11/21/09, hari <harimalla@ ..> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hari <harimalla@ ..> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Re: The Views of Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Saturday, November 21, 2009, 12:35 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Bhatachryaji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Can you please explain what is meant by 'utttayan occurs when sun is in dhanistha or sun is in makar sanrkanti' at different times of our history.If they could be separated what was the necessity to shift the nirayan utttaryan from sun in dhanistha to sun in makar sankranti. If acoording to you indepeendant existaence of the two was OK, we could have as well continued with sun in dhanistha position of uttrayan even today. Why do you think they shifted it to makar sankranti as mentioned by Barhamihir.What was the need if your independant theory of sayan and nirayan was acceptable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please note that nowadays Shiva ratri is not linked with winter solstice at all.That may have been an old concept which has no bearing today. At present Shivaratri is at the mid point between winter solstice,which is Poush purnima(designated by start of maagha snana) and spring equinox which is Chaitra purnima (designated by Vaisakh snana). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you think coupling of the sayan and the nirayan concepts are not needed then please explain why Vedanga jyotish had to coordinate the sun in dhanistha position, uttarayan and also maagha sukla pratipada together into one by thesixth sloka.Thus to be Vedic we have to coordinate sayan sankranti, nirayan sankranti and the lunar tithi together.Thanks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear friends, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Everybody connected with calendar seems to avoid the Mahashivaratri issue. This year in February 2009 we observed the MahashivaratriÃÆ'‚ two months after the Winter Solstice in December 2008, whereas in the Kaushitaki Brahman the Shivaratri coincided with the Winter solstice. This is a clear case of ignoring the Sayana calendar for observing one of the most important festival of the Hindus. If one respects the Vedas and the Vedic calendar then any proposedcalendar should be able to explain the growing distance between the date of the Winter Solstice and the date of the Mahashivararti. Friends, who are genuinely interested in Vidic Calendar please wake up and look at the case mentioned, which will tell you that the Sayana and the Nirayana Calendars can coexist side by side without interfering with each other.ÃÆ'‚ Approximately every 25,800 years the the angular difference between the Sayana and the Nirayana positions will be > > > repeated. No > > > > > > > compromise of any > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sort will be required in Vedic calendar. A time will come when the Mahashivaratri will again coincide with the Winter Solstice. Of course you and me may not be there to see that happen. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 11/20/09, hari <harimalla@ ..> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hari <harimalla@ ..> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Re: The Views of Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Friday, November 20, 2009, 7:36 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Harry, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kindly confirm if the vedic correlationship I have drawn is satisfactory to you or not. Step by step we should proceed to arrive at the correct way of reforming our vedic calendar. This correction is of dire necessity now, since our populace are celebrating the festivals on wrong days,say lagging one month behind the schedule. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The lunar dates are controlled by the sidereal sankrantis as you must be well knowing. But for them to get the actual seasonal value these same tithis must also touch the sayan dates. For example, during the sidhanta jyotish period,poush purnima was the uttaryan tithi which is the celebrations dates even today, and during the vedanga jyotiish period maagha sukla pratipada was the uttaryan tithi. Although they were related to the makar sankanti and the sun in dhanistha positions respectively, both of which are nirayan dates, they also touched the sayan uttarayan dates and got the true tropical values as well in a coordinated manner during the repective epochs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But now since poush purnima does not touch the actual uttrayan date, this makes it necesssary to correct our vedic calendar again as was done before, as mentioned by Brahmihir in his Brihad samhita.He has said 'In the old scriptures it is mentioned that uttarayan occurs when the sun was in dhanistha nakshyatra, because it was true those days. But now uttrayan occurs when the sun is in makar sankranti, which can be verified practically. ' Thus by shifting the sidereal uttarayan to makar sankranti and the uttarayan tithi to poush purnima, which is evident by the shift of maagha snana,the coordination of the tropical uttaryan date and the sidereal utrarayan date by the respective tithi was maintained after reformation those days, say less than two thousand years ago. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Should we also not do the reformation in the same way, to satisfy the vedic coordination clause specified by the sixth sloka of yajur vedang jyotish is my question. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please give your valuable suggestion. Thank you, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Harry " <harishkumar09@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Hari Malla, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is the Sayana system that is truly Vedic and thats exactly what the Rishi's used. The Nirayana system is non-vedic. Its not based on proper understanding of the Vedic Sacrifice. Sri Aurobindo came to give the correct interpretation of the Veda. And in the Aurobindo Ashram and also in Auroville only Sayana system is used. Only the tropical zodiac is the correct system. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Harish Kumar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " hari " <harimalla@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Harishkumar ji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The intention of PNB may be correct as far as our calenar has gone out of tract. But taking the sayan system is not a vedic suggestion, it is the Gregorian suggestion. The vedic suggestion would be to maintain the nirayan saytem and yet reform our calendar the vedic way. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This can easily be done by shifting our time frame by one whole month, so that our present Chaitra becoems the new Vaisakh or the present Meen sankranti becomes the new epochal Mesh sankranti. By this way the calendar is both reformed and the current nirayan system remains as it is. This method is the coordination of the concepts of two stalwarts of the nieteeth century- Bala ganagdhar Tilak and Shakar BK Dikshit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is the best way to reform our calendar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Harry " <harishkumar09@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Have the members of this group gone through the works of Patrizia Norelli Bachelet(PNB) and her views on astrology ? She advocates the Sayana Tropical Zodiac as the correct system. She traces the problems of India to a faulty calender and states rectification of it will make us perceive the Cosmic Harmonies which will bring forth the Satya Yuga the Age of Truth. What has been lost is the perfect measure of Time which needs to be retrieved. A resetting of the cosmic clock is necessary according to her for us to See the Truth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Clearly,its obvious to a child that Makara Sankranti should be celebrated on 21 December on Winter Solstice day,the shortest day of the year. But the current Nirayana system celebrates it 23 days later. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I give below a few useful links : > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > www.aeongroup. com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > www.patrizianorelli bachelet. com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Harry " <harishkumar09@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Hari Malla, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is the Sayana system that is truly Vedic and thats exactly what the Rishi's used. The Nirayana system is non-vedic. Its not based on proper understanding of the Vedic Sacrifice. Sri Aurobindo came to give the correct interpretation of the Veda. And in the Aurobindo Ashram and also in Auroville only Sayana system is used. Only the tropical zodiac is the correct system. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Harish Kumar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " hari " <harimalla@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Harishkumar ji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The intention of PNB may be correct as far as our calenar has gone out of tract. But taking the sayan system is not a vedic suggestion, it is the Gregorian suggestion. The vedic suggestion would be to maintain the nirayan saytem and yet reform our calendar the vedic way. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This can easily be done by shifting our time frame by one whole month, so that our present Chaitra becoems the new Vaisakh or the present Meen sankranti becomes the new epochal Mesh sankranti. By this way the calendar is both reformed and the current nirayan system remains as it is. This method is the coordination of the concepts of two stalwarts of the nieteeth century- Bala ganagdhar Tilak and Shakar BK Dikshit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is the best way to reform our calendar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Harry " <harishkumar09@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Have the members of this group gone through the works of Patrizia Norelli Bachelet(PNB) and her views on astrology ? She advocates the Sayana Tropical Zodiac as the correct system. She traces the problems of India to a faulty calender and states rectification of it will make us perceive the Cosmic Harmonies which will bring forth the Satya Yuga the Age of Truth. What has been lost is the perfect measure of Time which needs to be retrieved. A resetting of the cosmic clock is necessary according to her for us to See the Truth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Clearly,its obvious to a child that Makara Sankranti should be celebrated on 21 December on Winter Solstice day,the shortest day of the year. But the current Nirayana system celebrates it 23 days later. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I give below a few useful links : > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > www.aeongroup. com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > www.patrizianorelli bachelet. com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2009 Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 Shri Hari Malla Ji, Jai Shri Ram! <They both pretend to know more than what they really know. My experience is they do not mind to belittle the shastras by evading and misinterpreting, if it suits their egos> That is real kettle calling the pot black! A gentleman who does not even know the actual name of his favourite flogging horse viz. " Barahamihira "  is going to do the correct interpretation of shastras and the Vedas! You have forgotten that I had invited you to join hinducalendar forum, of which you are still a member,  to discuss and evaluate your views as initially, you gave the impression that you were interested in the real Vedic calendar.  We had thoroughly discussed all the points raised by you in that forum times without number and evaluated every single sentence of your prolific posts. This can be verified by any member of any forum who is also a member of hinducalendar forum. To start with I was myself at a loss to understand as to why you were trying so hard for such a useless and non-sense calendar! It was only much later that  we came to  know that you have a mandate as a paracharak from a particular ……. that you must thrust down the throat of unsuspecting Indian public a calendar which is neither scientific nor even as per geography, leave alone as per the Vedas and shastras.  I had given you a polite warning in Hindiucalendar forum: “There is a limit to everything including patienceâ€. I am sure you will get a similar warning from  other forums as well sooner than later. Regarding your “ request for some third party interventionâ€, you have yet another wrong impression in your over-enthusiasm that I have agreed for any intervention. Did I do so? No. As such, you can ask for “intervention†of your own views and not of AKK. Jai Shri Ram! A K Kaul , " hari " <harimalla wrote: > > Dear Rajji and other friends, > Will it be possible to hear your comments on this matter? Bhattacharyaji and Kaulji are both biased persons. They both pretend to know more than what they really know. My experience is they do not mind to belittle the shastras by evading and misinterpreting, if it suits their egos. They are also fond of arguing for the sake of arguments. > Thus may I request for some third party intervention or attention so we can proceed with unbiased analysis of the shastras and the truth.Thanks, > Regards, > Hari Malla > > > > , Sunil Bhattacharjya sunil_bhattacharjya@ wrote: > > > > Dear friends, > > > > What careful examination did Harimalla do? Just writing the phrase " on careful examination " does not make it careful exammination. Harimalla should give up his tricks. This forum has matured people and they can see whether it was careful examination or repetion of Harimalla's old views. > > > > Once the Uttarayana occurred in the Dhanishtha nakshatra does not mean that it will always occur there. So calling the Uttarayana a sidereal phenomenon is not appropriate as the Nakshatras do not have ayana (ie. movement) but Uttarayana has " ayana " built into it by definition / etymology. If you observe you will see that Harimalla's " Nirayana uttarayana " will mean " No ayana Uttarayana " or " Uttarayana with with no ayana " because Nirayana means : Nih (no) + ayana (movement) = Nirayana. > > > > Varahamihira observed the night sky with his naked eye as the ancient astronomers used to do and this practice of naked eye observation continued till the end of the nineteenth century to study the positions of the Grahas and the nakshatras. These days we can get the data from the modern astronomical societies or institutions and cansee that the Uttarayana occurs in the Dhanu rashi. > > > > I am only asking that one should take the actual positions of the occurrence of the Uttarayana just like Darshaneyji had done. Darshaneyji should amalgamate his seasonal calendar with the Sidereal calendar so that he should be able to accommodate the festivals like Ram Navami in the shuklanavami of the purnimanta Chaitra month and Mahashivaratri in the Krishnachaturdashi of the purnimanta Magha month. > > > > It appears the subject is beyond the comprehension of Harimalla and he should desist from writing on it. > > > > Regards, > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 11/28/09, hari harimalla@ wrote: > > > > hari harimalla@ > > Re: The Views of Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet > > > > Saturday, November 28, 2009, 7:49 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear RAjji, > > > > Bhattacharyaji seems to be right at the face of it. But on careful consideration we have to consider these points too. > > > > 1)Although Vedang jyotish does not say 'sun in dhanistha' is the 'niryan' postion, we know that since the sun postion is referred to the seteller position it is nothing but 'nirayan' postion, by the modern reckoning and definition of steller or sidereal as nirayan. > > > > > > > > 2)Secondly since this sun's steller position at dhanistha,was equated with uttarayan by the 6th sloka of Yajur vedanga jyotish, it was the nirayan uttarayan of those days, in the same sense, we take makar sankranti as the nirayan uttaryan sankranti of today. It is not that makar sankranti was the uttarayan at Barahmihir's time only, but it is still the uttarayan of today, as we clebrate uttarayan at makar sankranti even now a days, which is specifically mentioned as uttarayan in our present panchangas, even if shri Bhattacharyaji would like to deny that it is the present uttaryan. > > > > > > > > 3)Letus not forget what Barahmihir says in his Brihad samhita.We can easily deduce from his expression, that the sun in dhanistha postion was taken as uttarayan nearly upto Barhmihir's time, say for about 1700 years after the start of Vedanga jyotish.Since it remained nirayan for so long a time,surely our system is limited nirayan. > > > > But we cannot say it is indefintiely nirayan,as Bhattacharyaji would like to think, since Barah mihir did eventually correct it and shifted it to makar sankranti, which we have not been able to shift even today, when its date also has already expired. There is no use denying facts.Please know that it is the nirayan uttarayan of today, till we shift uttrayn to a new position again. > > > > 4) Last but not the least,If our system was indefinitely nirayan as shri Bhatachryaji claims, and if it is free from the tropical uttarayan, then we could have still used the 'sun in dhanistha' postion of vedanga jyotish as the nirayan uttarayan of today and there was no need for Barhmihir to correct it to make it compatible with the uttarayan of Barhmihir's time.Thus this shows that although our system is nirayan, but it is limited nirayan and we have to coorect it from time to time to make it compatible with the sayan uttarayan which is the actual uttarayan like Barahmihir had done. > > > > Regards, > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear friends, > > > > > > > > > > 1) > > > > > > > > > > Shri Harimalla himself admitted as follows: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let me further clarify my own statement.My intention ws that Barahmihir > > > > > has mentioned in his Brihad Samhita, chapter Adityacharadhyaya that in > > > > > the olden days uttaryan occurred in dhanistha because it was true those > > > > > days, but by his time uttaryan had come to makar sankranti. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We are celebrating the Makar Sankranti when the Sun enters the Makar Rashi and that is unrelated to the Uttarayana. The Makar Sankranti now falls within the six-month period of Uttarayana starting from the Dhanu Rashi. But does he know that in the Mahabharata times the Sun entered the Makar Rashi in the Dakshinayana (ie. then the Makara Sankranti was in the Daksjinayana) and not in the Uttarayana? Any astronomer will tell him that. There is nothing like Nirayana uttarayana. In Vedanga Jyotisha it was not called Nirayana uttarayana. In the time of the composition of the the Vedanga jyotisha it occurred in the Nirayana Magha month and at that time it was the first seasonal month of the Sishir ritu, ie. the Tapas as Tapas always starts from the Uttarayana. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2) > > > > > He also said > > > > > > > > > > Now my intention is that Barahmihir did not only change the mind set of > > > > > the blind people, but he shifted the nirayan uttarayan from the 'sun in > > > > > dhaninstha'position to the 'sun in makar sankranti'position. Shri > > > > > Rajji, Please give your opinion if I am right or not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I repeat that Varahamihira did not change anything. The start of Uttarayana shifted due to the Precession of the earth and not due to Varahamihira and Varahamihira accepted that phenomenon gracefully. He did not want any credit or discredit that he had changed it. When the Winter Solstice occurred in his time he observed the position of the nakshatras in the sky and he knew that the Sun was not in the Dhanistha nakshatra but in the early part of the Makar rashi. In the ancient times the Jyotishis observed the night sky with their naked eye. Why to speak of the ancient times, even in the nineteenth century there were Jyotishis who observed the night sky for the position of the Grahas and the Nakshatras. Varahamihira simply acknowledged the effects of the precession of the earth. I think it is beyond Shri Harimalla's comprehension so he should leave it at that. Why should he rake his grey matter if he is finding it difficult to understand. > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 11/27/09, hari <harimalla@ ..> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > hari <harimalla@ ..> > > > > > Re: The Views of Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet > > > > > To: > > > > > > > > > > Friday, November 27, 2009, 8:03 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Bhattacharyaji and RAjji, > > > > > > > > > > Let us please discuss this issue jointly.I find it difficult to explain what I mean to Bhattacharyaji. Thus I request shree RAjji also to join us here. I had said in my previous mail as follows: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <Can you please explain what is meant by 'utttayan occurs when sun is in dhanistha or sun is in makar sanrkanti' at different times of our history.If they could be separated what was the necessity to shift the nirayan utttaryan from sun in dhanistha to sun in makar sankranti. If acoording to you indepeendant existaence of the two was OK, we could have as well continued with sun in dhanistha position of uttrayan even today. Why do you think they shifted it to makar sankranti as mentioned by Barhamihir.> > > > > > > > > > > Let me further clarify my own statement.My intention ws that Barahmihir has mentioned in his Brihad Samhita, chapter Adityacharadhyaya that in the olden days uttaryan occurred in dhanistha because it was true those days, but by his time uttaryan had come to makar sankranti. Sinc we are using makar sankranti even now as the 'nirayan' uttarayan,he did shift the nirayan uttarayan of vedanga jyotish,ie 'sun in dhannitatha' to the nirayan uttarayan as 'makar sankranti' which is continued even till this day. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But shri Bhattacharyaji has replied thus: > > > > > > > > > > <We don't have to shift anything. We have only to recognise what is what. Now the Uttarayana starts when the Sun is in the Dhanu Rashi, ie. before the Makar Sankranti. In Varahamihira' s time the Uttarayana started in the beginning of the Makar Rashi. Ask any astronomer and he will confirm this. Varahamihira did not have to change anything except changing the mindset of the (intellectually) blind people.> > > > > > > > > > > Now my intention is that Barahmihir did not only change the mind set of the blind people, but he shifted the nirayan uttarayan from the 'sun in dhaninstha'position to the 'sun in makar sankranti'position. Shri Rajji, Please give your opinion if I am right or not. > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shri Harimallaji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1) > > > > > > > > > > > Uttarayana means the period of six month of the northern course of the Sun. The Makar Sankranti is observed in Uttarayana even now though the start of the Uttarayana is before the Makar sankranti. During the period of Vedanga Jyotisha the Uttarayana started in the first haif of the Dhanistha Nakshatra ie. it occurred in the end of the Makar Rashi. Thus at that time the Makar Sankramana occurred before the start of the Uttarayana. Once explained a school boy will understand this and I hope this will not be difficult for you to understand. > > > > > > > > > > > 2) > > > > > > > > > > > We don't have to shift anything. We have only to recognise what is what. Now the Uttarayana starts when the Sun is in the Dhanu Rashi, ie. before the Makar Sankranti. In Varahamihira' s time the Uttarayana started in the beginning of the Makar Rashi. Ask any astronomer and he will confirm this. Varahamihira did not have to change anything except changing the mindset of the (intellectually) blind people. > > > > > > > > > > > 3) > > > > > > > > > > > In the Brahmana of the Veda we find that at one time the Mahashivaratri fell on the start of the Uttarayana, ie. on the first day of the seasonal month of Tapas (and the astronomers will tell you that this time period was in the third millennium BCE). These days it does not fall on the day of the start of Uttarayana. Ask the schoolboy (whom if you explain the above concept of Uttarayana) and he will tell you that in the Vedic reference the calendar followed for the Mahashivaratri was the Sidereal calendar and not the Seasonal calendar. Darshaneyji, in spite of his good intentions prposed that in 2010 it should be celebrated in 12 tapasya, which defies all logic. It is neither according the Seasonal calendar nor according to the Sidereal calendar. If he strictly follows the Seasonal calendar then he should ask people to celebrate the Mahashivaratri on the Winter solstice day by quoting the precedence in the Veda. Hope this will not > > be > > > > > difficult for > > > > > > > > > > > you to undertand this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You profess to be so knowledgeable so are you pretending not to understand all these? If so please do not pretend and do not continue this unnnecessary mails so that the Jyotishis do not get disturbed in their main task of jyotish-discussions . I hope you do not like to make unsubstantiated statements like Shri Kaul, who short-sightaedy does all that just trying to win an argument. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 11/21/09, hari <harimalla@ ..> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hari <harimalla@ ..> > > > > > > > > > > > Re: The Views of Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Saturday, November 21, 2009, 12:35 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Bhatachryaji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Can you please explain what is meant by 'utttayan occurs when sun is in dhanistha or sun is in makar sanrkanti' at different times of our history.If they could be separated what was the necessity to shift the nirayan utttaryan from sun in dhanistha to sun in makar sankranti. If acoording to you indepeendant existaence of the two was OK, we could have as well continued with sun in dhanistha position of uttrayan even today. Why do you think they shifted it to makar sankranti as mentioned by Barhamihir.What was the need if your independant theory of sayan and nirayan was acceptable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please note that nowadays Shiva ratri is not linked with winter solstice at all.That may have been an old concept which has no bearing today. At present Shivaratri is at the mid point between winter solstice,which is Poush purnima(designated by start of maagha snana) and spring equinox which is Chaitra purnima (designated by Vaisakh snana). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you think coupling of the sayan and the nirayan concepts are not needed then please explain why Vedanga jyotish had to coordinate the sun in dhanistha position, uttarayan and also maagha sukla pratipada together into one by thesixth sloka.Thus to be Vedic we have to coordinate sayan sankranti, nirayan sankranti and the lunar tithi together.Thanks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear friends, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Everybody connected with calendar seems to avoid the Mahashivaratri issue. This year in February 2009 we observed the MahashivaratriÃÆ'‚ two months after the Winter Solstice in December 2008, whereas in the Kaushitaki Brahman the Shivaratri coincided with the Winter solstice. This is a clear case of ignoring the Sayana calendar for observing one of the most important festival of the Hindus. If one respects the Vedas and the Vedic calendar then any proposedcalendar should be able to explain the growing distance between the date of the Winter Solstice and the date of the Mahashivararti. Friends, who are genuinely interested in Vidic Calendar please wake up and look at the case mentioned, which will tell you that the Sayana and the Nirayana Calendars can coexist side by side without interfering with each other.ÃÆ'‚ Approximately every 25,800 years the the angular difference between the Sayana and the Nirayana positions will be > > repeated. No > > > > > compromise of any > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sort will be required in Vedic calendar. A time will come when the Mahashivaratri will again coincide with the Winter Solstice. Of course you and me may not be there to see that happen. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 11/20/09, hari <harimalla@ ..> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hari <harimalla@ ..> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Re: The Views of Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Friday, November 20, 2009, 7:36 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Harry, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kindly confirm if the vedic correlationship I have drawn is satisfactory to you or not. Step by step we should proceed to arrive at the correct way of reforming our vedic calendar. This correction is of dire necessity now, since our populace are celebrating the festivals on wrong days,say lagging one month behind the schedule. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The lunar dates are controlled by the sidereal sankrantis as you must be well knowing. But for them to get the actual seasonal value these same tithis must also touch the sayan dates. For example, during the sidhanta jyotish period,poush purnima was the uttaryan tithi which is the celebrations dates even today, and during the vedanga jyotiish period maagha sukla pratipada was the uttaryan tithi. Although they were related to the makar sankanti and the sun in dhanistha positions respectively, both of which are nirayan dates, they also touched the sayan uttarayan dates and got the true tropical values as well in a coordinated manner during the repective epochs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But now since poush purnima does not touch the actual uttrayan date, this makes it necesssary to correct our vedic calendar again as was done before, as mentioned by Brahmihir in his Brihad samhita.He has said 'In the old scriptures it is mentioned that uttarayan occurs when the sun was in dhanistha nakshyatra, because it was true those days. But now uttrayan occurs when the sun is in makar sankranti, which can be verified practically. ' Thus by shifting the sidereal uttarayan to makar sankranti and the uttarayan tithi to poush purnima, which is evident by the shift of maagha snana,the coordination of the tropical uttaryan date and the sidereal utrarayan date by the respective tithi was maintained after reformation those days, say less than two thousand years ago. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Should we also not do the reformation in the same way, to satisfy the vedic coordination clause specified by the sixth sloka of yajur vedang jyotish is my question. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please give your valuable suggestion. Thank you, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Harry " <harishkumar09@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Hari Malla, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is the Sayana system that is truly Vedic and thats exactly what the Rishi's used. The Nirayana system is non-vedic. Its not based on proper understanding of the Vedic Sacrifice. Sri Aurobindo came to give the correct interpretation of the Veda. And in the Aurobindo Ashram and also in Auroville only Sayana system is used. Only the tropical zodiac is the correct system. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Harish Kumar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " hari " <harimalla@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Harishkumar ji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The intention of PNB may be correct as far as our calenar has gone out of tract. But taking the sayan system is not a vedic suggestion, it is the Gregorian suggestion. The vedic suggestion would be to maintain the nirayan saytem and yet reform our calendar the vedic way. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This can easily be done by shifting our time frame by one whole month, so that our present Chaitra becoems the new Vaisakh or the present Meen sankranti becomes the new epochal Mesh sankranti. By this way the calendar is both reformed and the current nirayan system remains as it is. This method is the coordination of the concepts of two stalwarts of the nieteeth century- Bala ganagdhar Tilak and Shakar BK Dikshit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is the best way to reform our calendar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Harry " <harishkumar09@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Have the members of this group gone through the works of Patrizia Norelli Bachelet(PNB) and her views on astrology ? She advocates the Sayana Tropical Zodiac as the correct system. She traces the problems of India to a faulty calender and states rectification of it will make us perceive the Cosmic Harmonies which will bring forth the Satya Yuga the Age of Truth. What has been lost is the perfect measure of Time which needs to be retrieved. A resetting of the cosmic clock is necessary according to her for us to See the Truth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Clearly,its obvious to a child that Makara Sankranti should be celebrated on 21 December on Winter Solstice day,the shortest day of the year. But the current Nirayana system celebrates it 23 days later. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I give below a few useful links : > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > www.aeongroup. com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > www.patrizianorelli bachelet. com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Harry " <harishkumar09@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Hari Malla, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is the Sayana system that is truly Vedic and thats exactly what the Rishi's used. The Nirayana system is non-vedic. Its not based on proper understanding of the Vedic Sacrifice. Sri Aurobindo came to give the correct interpretation of the Veda. And in the Aurobindo Ashram and also in Auroville only Sayana system is used. Only the tropical zodiac is the correct system. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Harish Kumar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " hari " <harimalla@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Harishkumar ji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The intention of PNB may be correct as far as our calenar has gone out of tract. But taking the sayan system is not a vedic suggestion, it is the Gregorian suggestion. The vedic suggestion would be to maintain the nirayan saytem and yet reform our calendar the vedic way. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This can easily be done by shifting our time frame by one whole month, so that our present Chaitra becoems the new Vaisakh or the present Meen sankranti becomes the new epochal Mesh sankranti. By this way the calendar is both reformed and the current nirayan system remains as it is. This method is the coordination of the concepts of two stalwarts of the nieteeth century- Bala ganagdhar Tilak and Shakar BK Dikshit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is the best way to reform our calendar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Harry " <harishkumar09@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Have the members of this group gone through the works of Patrizia Norelli Bachelet(PNB) and her views on astrology ? She advocates the Sayana Tropical Zodiac as the correct system. She traces the problems of India to a faulty calender and states rectification of it will make us perceive the Cosmic Harmonies which will bring forth the Satya Yuga the Age of Truth. What has been lost is the perfect measure of Time which needs to be retrieved. A resetting of the cosmic clock is necessary according to her for us to See the Truth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Clearly,its obvious to a child that Makara Sankranti should be celebrated on 21 December on Winter Solstice day,the shortest day of the year. But the current Nirayana system celebrates it 23 days later. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I give below a few useful links : > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > www.aeongroup. com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > www.patrizianorelli bachelet. com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.