Festivals - Nakshathra and Rashi - Samveda Mantra !!

[Guest guest]

I m happy to post Samveda Mantra as I m a Samvediya Kauthumiya Brahmin,

the day I came to know about my lineage, I started efforts for studying

Samveda.

 

--------------------------

 

Mantra No # 222

 

|| Idam Vishnu-Rvi Chaktrame Tri-dha Ni Dadhe Padam, Samooddh Masya

Paa-Ansule ||

 

The mantra recounts God Vishnu has measured the world in 3 steps.

 

Earlier, I found a similar shloka in Rik Veda also, but, don't remember

exactly in what mandal it was there.

 

--------------------------

 

Mantra No. # 616 (Note : it clearly mentions 6 Ritu (seasons)

happening in the land of Vedas.

 

|| Vasant Innu Rantiyo Greeshma Innu Rantiyah, Varsha Innu Sharado

Hemantah Shishir Innu Rantiyah !!

 

Note : I saw you people were trying to find out reference to 6 seasons

in one of the postings, what was the context, I dont remember, but, pls

be informed that Samveda Rishis were knowing 6 Ritu or Seasons.

 

--------------------------

 

 

Mantra No. # 632 ( measurement of day)

 

 

|| Trinsh-a-Ddhvam Vi Rajati Vakpat-Angaya Dhiyate, Prati Vastorah

Dyu-Bhiha ||

 

Mnatra says that Sun lights up for 30 ghatis ( i.e. half a day, 60

ghatis make a day)

 

--------------------------

 

Reference to Nakschhatras is given in

 

Mantra No. # 633

 

|| Aaaptye Taa-ya-yo Yatha Nakschhtra Yntya-Yukti-Bhi-ahi, Suryaya

Vishwa Chakschhase ||

 

 

 

regards,

Utkal.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

, " Krishen " <jyotirved wrote:

>

>

>

> <If Any body wants mantra (verse) i can post that.>

>

> Pl do so.

>

> AKK

>

>

> , " utkal.panigrahi "

> utkal.panigrahi@ wrote:

> >

> > Just to mention, Vaman as Avtaar of Lord Vishnu is mentioed in Sam

> Veda itself, If Any body wants mantra (verse) i can post that.

> >

> > regards,

> > Utkal

> > , " Vijayadas " vijayadas_pradeep@

> wrote:

> > >

> > >

> > > 8. In Kerala , we expect Mahabali , (the Bali Chakravarthy, who

had

> offered his head as the third step, for Maha Vishnu's measurement,

> Vamana Avatara), to come and visit us once a year. This is definitely

> related to calendar, in my view. Mahabali visits us during the

malayalam

> calendar month of ''chingam'' (Simham - Leo). This calendar month

system

> corresponds to position of Sun. Sun in Aries is Medam(mesham) for us

and

> Sun in Leo is (Chingam)Simham. Sun in Chingam is definitely an once a

> year event. Moreover here we have a specific nakshathra attached for

his

> visit in this month. Utharashada(Uthradam) in Makara Rahi is the

> first-Preparatory day and the next star Thiru Onam (Sravanam) is the

day

> of visit of Maha Bali and is celebrated as ''Onam''. As you know bali

is

> sacrifice and Mahabali is the greatest sacrifice. Thus this is Yajna.

> Since when this festival has been celebrated - I do not know! But this

> is part of Vamana Avatara. So you may see the role of star and Rashi

> here.

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Mantras from Rig_veda

 

Those Hymns are only related to third step of Vishnuji otherwise there and many

Hymns related to Vishnuji and Shivaji in Rog Veda.

 

A)

1.154.1

 

1. I WILL declare the mighty deeds of Vi & #7779; & #7751;u, of him who measured out

the earthly regions,

Who propped the highest place of congregation, thrice setting down his footstep,

widely striding.

 

 

B)

1.154.3

 

3 Let the hymn lift itself as strength to Vi & #7779; & #7751;u, the Bull

far-striding, dwelling on the mountains,

Him who alone with triple step hath measured this common dwelling-place, long,

far extended.

 

C)

1.154.4

 

4 Him whose three places that are filled with sweetness, imperishable, joy as it

may list them,

Who verily alone upholds the threefold, the earth, the heaven, and all living

creatures.

 

 

 

D)

1.22.17

 

17 Through all this world strode Vi & #7779; & #7751;u; thrice his foot he planted,

and the whole

Was gathered in his footstep's dust.

 

E)

1.22.18

 

18 Vi & #7779; & #7751;u, the Guardian, he whom none deceiveth, made three steps;

thenceforth

Establishing his high decrees.

 

F)

6.49.13

 

13 He who for man's behoof in his afiliction thrice measured out the earthly

regions, Vi & #7779; & #7751;u-

When one so great as thou affordeth shelter, may we with wealth and with

ourselves be happy.

 

G)

7.100.3

 

3 Three times strode forth this God in all his grandeur over this earth bright

with a hundred splendours.

Foremost be Vi & #7779; & #7751;u, stronger than the strongest: for glorious is his

name who lives for ever.

 

Regs,

Prashant Pandey

 

CC:- Satya Prakash Choudhanry

 

(BPHS and Rashis are also indigenous work of BHARAT(VEDIC-COMMUNITY), I have

proofs, basically astrology has emerged from VEDAS only, single-single concept

have emerged from VEDAS only, so astrology is only and only VEDIC ASTROLOGY)

 

 

, " utkal.panigrahi " <utkal.panigrahi

wrote:

>

>

> I m happy to post Samveda Mantra as I m a Samvediya Kauthumiya Brahmin,

> the day I came to know about my lineage, I started efforts for studying

> Samveda.

>

> --------------------------

>

> Mantra No # 222

>

> || Idam Vishnu-Rvi Chaktrame Tri-dha Ni Dadhe Padam, Samooddh Masya

> Paa-Ansule ||

>

> The mantra recounts God Vishnu has measured the world in 3 steps.

>

> Earlier, I found a similar shloka in Rik Veda also, but, don't remember

> exactly in what mandal it was there.

>

> --------------------------

>

> Mantra No. # 616 (Note : it clearly mentions 6 Ritu (seasons)

> happening in the land of Vedas.

>

> || Vasant Innu Rantiyo Greeshma Innu Rantiyah, Varsha Innu Sharado

> Hemantah Shishir Innu Rantiyah !!

>

> Note : I saw you people were trying to find out reference to 6 seasons

> in one of the postings, what was the context, I dont remember, but, pls

> be informed that Samveda Rishis were knowing 6 Ritu or Seasons.

>

> --------------------------

>

>

> Mantra No. # 632 ( measurement of day)

>

>

> || Trinsh-a-Ddhvam Vi Rajati Vakpat-Angaya Dhiyate, Prati Vastorah

> Dyu-Bhiha ||

>

> Mnatra says that Sun lights up for 30 ghatis ( i.e. half a day, 60

> ghatis make a day)

>

> --------------------------

>

> Reference to Nakschhatras is given in

>

> Mantra No. # 633

>

> || Aaaptye Taa-ya-yo Yatha Nakschhtra Yntya-Yukti-Bhi-ahi, Suryaya

> Vishwa Chakschhase ||

>

>

>

> regards,

> Utkal.

>

>

>

>

>

>

, " Krishen " <jyotirved@> wrote:

> >

> >

> >

> > <If Any body wants mantra (verse) i can post that.>

> >

> > Pl do so.

> >

> > AKK

> >

> >

> > , " utkal.panigrahi "

> > utkal.panigrahi@ wrote:

> > >

> > > Just to mention, Vaman as Avtaar of Lord Vishnu is mentioed in Sam

> > Veda itself, If Any body wants mantra (verse) i can post that.

> > >

> > > regards,

> > > Utkal

> > > , " Vijayadas " vijayadas_pradeep@

> > wrote:

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > 8. In Kerala , we expect Mahabali , (the Bali Chakravarthy, who

> had

> > offered his head as the third step, for Maha Vishnu's measurement,

> > Vamana Avatara), to come and visit us once a year. This is definitely

> > related to calendar, in my view. Mahabali visits us during the

> malayalam

> > calendar month of ''chingam'' (Simham - Leo). This calendar month

> system

> > corresponds to position of Sun. Sun in Aries is Medam(mesham) for us

> and

> > Sun in Leo is (Chingam)Simham. Sun in Chingam is definitely an once a

> > year event. Moreover here we have a specific nakshathra attached for

> his

> > visit in this month. Utharashada(Uthradam) in Makara Rahi is the

> > first-Preparatory day and the next star Thiru Onam (Sravanam) is the

> day

> > of visit of Maha Bali and is celebrated as ''Onam''. As you know bali

> is

> > sacrifice and Mahabali is the greatest sacrifice. Thus this is Yajna.

> > Since when this festival has been celebrated - I do not know! But this

> > is part of Vamana Avatara. So you may see the role of star and Rashi

> > here.

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Shri Utkal Panigrahiji,

Jai Shri Ram!

The following post was splashed in HinduCalendar forum several

years back.

This will give you and idea as to how and why the real Hindu

calendar should be without the mess known as Mesha, Vrisha etc.

Rashis----whether so called Sayana or so called nirayana, especially in view of

the mantras from the Samaveda and their commentary by Acharya Sayana!

Regards,

AKK

***

****

****

***

Shri Narayan Prasad ji,

Namaste!

I am indeed thankful to you for prodding me to make my thoughts

about Vedic luni-solar months etc. articulate and cohesive. I, therefore,

request you to please go through this post carefully so that we take some

constructive steps in the right direction for streamlining our calendars at the

earliest.

 

The shlokas quoted by Diksit are from recent works:

The two sholkas that you have quoted from “Bahratiya Jyotish

Shastra” of S. B. Dikshit in support of Rashi based lunar months, are

actually from “Kala Madhava” of thirteenth century and “Kala

Tattva Vivechan” of sixteenth century AD. As such, both these works

are quite recent ones and it is not surprising at all that they have advocated

to calculate lunar months vis-à-vis astrological Rashis like Aries, Taurus etc.

 

Vedic calendars were framed without astrological Rashis:

However, the task we have at our hands is to streamline our

calendars in accordance with the Vedic lore that should be applicable to whole

of India and not as per Narada etc. Purana, that is based on the Surya Sidhanta

of Maya the mlechha, or some so called Jyotisha shastra etc.

Let us, therefore, see the relevant references for that purpose

i.e., the real fundamentals of the calendar as it existed during the Vedic and

post-Vedic period.

 

 

4000

BCE:

The earliest reference---at least of around 4000 BCE----we have to an

intercalary month (adhika-masa) is in the Rigveda 1/25/8. An

adhika-masa can take place only when lunar synodic months are calculated

vis-à-vis solar sankrantis. Since in the Vedic period only Madhu, Madhava

etc. solar months and not Aries etc. astrological rashis were in vogue, it

means that even the earliest references to lunar months in the Vedas are

without Mesha etc. Rashis but in relation to Madhu, Madhava etc.

solar/lunar months.

3000

BCE:

Taittiriya Samhita 1/4/14 says: “Madhushcha madhavashcha shukrashcha

shuchishcha nabhashcha nabhasyashcha ishashcha oorjashcha sahashcha

sahasyashcha tapashcha tapasyashchai up yam griheeto asi samsarpo asi

amhaspatyay tva”

 

Here Madhu, Madhava etc. twelve months have been named and then

samsarpa is the thirteenth (intercalary/adhika) month and amhaspati a decayed

(kshyaya) month. THERE ARE NO RASHIS HERE AND LUNAR MONTHS, INCLUDING

ADHIKA/KSHAYA-MASA, WERE RELATED TO MADHU, MADHAVA ETC. SOLAR MONTHS AND EVEN

NAMED AS (LUNAR, APART FROM SOLAR) MADHU, MADHAVA ETC. WITHOUT ANY DOUBT.

3. Again the same Taitiriya Samhita 5/6/7 says

“shadratrir deekshitah syat shadva ritavah samvatsarah…dwadasha

ratreer deekshitah syat dwadasha masah samvatsarah… trayodasha ratreer

deekshitah syat, trayodasha masah samvatsarah”

i.e. “One should get consecrated for six days as the year

comprises six seasons. One should get consecrated for 12 days as the year

comprises 12 months. One should get consecrated for 13 days as the year

comprises 13 months (including an adhika masa)”. There are no rashis involved

here but the solar months Madhu, Madhava etc. are implied because of references

to six seasons, and thereby the lunar months are related to those very solar

months.

4. 3000 BCE: Vajasaneya Samhita 22/31 says:

“Madhave svaha, madhavay svaha, shukray svaha shuchaye svaha,

nabhase svaha, nabhasyaya svaha, ishay svaha, oorjay svaha, sahase svaha,

sahasyay svaha, tapase svaha, tapasyaya svaha, amhaspataye

svaha”

 

Here all the twelve solar months of Madhu, Madhava etc. have been

named consecutively and the thirteenth month has been named as amhaspati.

Obviously, the thirteenth is an adhika lunar month. Thus as per this

proof also, lunar months were known by the names of solar months of Madhu,

Madhva etc. in early Vedic days!

..

 

3000

BCE and 100 BCE: In Shatapatha Brahmana 4/5/14 we find

“Upayama griheeto asi Madhave tu etyeva advaryur-grihnati upyama

griheeto asi madhavay tveti pratiprastha taitaveva vasantikav sayad

vasante aushadhayo jayante vanaspatayah pachyante tena haitav

madhushcha madhavshcha”

 

Translation “Since in the Vasnata (spring season) grains in

the fields start sprouting that is why the two months of that season are known

as Madhu and Madhvava”.

The commentary on this mantra by Shri Hari-Swamin says,

“Madhu Madhavaviti chaitra vaishakhav ritu grahanam chaitradayo masah

devatah. Chaitra vaishakhayor madhu madhava namdheya praptim darshayati.

Etav uktav masav vasantikav”

Translation “Madhu and Madhava are Chaitra and Vaishakha as

they are the two months of Spring season. As such the shruti has shown

the names of Chaitra and Vaishakha as Madhu and Madhava”

Shri Hari-Swamin is said to be a scholar of around first century

BCE. It means that the tradition of calling solar months Madhu, Madhava

by lunar names like Caitra, Vaishakha etc. and vice-versa was prevailing then.

 

 

1400

BCE:

Acharya Lagadha’s Vedanga Jyotisha says:

 

“Svarakramete somarkav yada sakam savasavav, syat tadadi

yugam maghastapah shuklo ayanam hyudak”

As per Dikshit’s translation, it means ”When the sun

and the moon while moving in the sky, come to Vasava (Dhanishtha i.e. Beta

Delphini) star together, then the yuga, the Magha (month), the tapas (seasonal

month), the light half of the month, and the Winter Solstice, all commence

together”.

 

Sixth

mantra of the same VJ says

 

“Prapadyate shavishthadav surya chandramasav udak, sarpardhe

dkshinarkastu, magha shravanayoh sada”

Dikshit’s translation: “The sun and the moon turn

towards North in the beginning of Dhanishtha and towards South in the middle of

Ashlesha. The sun always does this in the month of Magha and

Shravana”

THIS IS THE VERY FIRST INDIGENOUS ASTRONOMICAL WORK OF 14TH

CENTURY BCE AND HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH SO CALLED ARIES ETC. RASHIS,

WHETHER SAYANA OR NIRAYANA, BUT TELLS US THE METHODLOGY OF CALCULATING ALL THE

TWELVE MONTHS, BOTH SOLAR AND LUNAR, LIKE TAPAH AND MAGHA, APART FROM WINTER

SOLSTICE AND SUMMER SOLSTICE ETC. IF ACHARYA LAGADHA COULD DO IT IN EARLY

14TH CENTURY BCE, WITHOUT INVOLVING ANY ARIES ETC. ASTROLOGICAL

RASHIS, WHY CAN’T WE DO IT TODAY?

 

1400

BCE to 400 BCE: The Mahabharata contains quite

a few “finishing touches” of a post Vedanga Jyotisha Era since

it follows the VJ methodology for calculating adhika-masa etc. This

“itihasa” could therefore be of a period of 1400 BCE to 400

BCE, since the latter was the period when Graecho-Chaldean rashis had

started gaining a foothold in India. Mangal, Shani etc. planets, had,

however been propagated in India prior to 400 BCE, as is evident from the

Atharva Jyotisha of about 500 BCE. That is why there is no mention of

Aries etc. astrological rashis in the MBh either but there are references

to nakshatras times without number. We also find reference to Magha,

Kaumudi etc. months at several places. In the Gita, which is a part of the

MBh, Lord Krishna has identified Himself with Margasheersha.

 

Besides, it is also common knowledge that Bhishma waited for

Uttarayana to shed off his mortal coil but we do not find even by mistake

anywhere in the entire MBh any mention of Makara Rashi/sankranti, which is

supposed to be the synonym of Utarayana by “Sayana Vedic

jyotishis”. Similarly, Bhishma is said to have shed off his mortal coil

on Magha Shukla ashtami in Rohini nakshatra as per Shanti Parva 47/3 which

reads as:

“shuklapakshyasyashtamyam maghamasasya parthiva, prajapatye

cha nakshatre madyam prapte divakare….”

Here Magha Shukla ashtami and Rohini nakshatra have been mentioned

clearly without any reference to any Makara etc. rashi/sankranti.

Same is the case with several other references in the MBh, which proves it

beyond any doubt that Magha, Phalguna etc. solar/lunar months besides

Uttarayana etc. phenomena were calculated during those days also without any

“assistance from” Aries etc. astrological Rashis!

 

 

875

AD:

Vateshwara Sidhanta and Gola, a work of 9th century AD, says in

Chapter 3, verse 29 “The months Chaitra, Vaishakha etc. are

called, according to the Vedas, Madhu, Madhava, Shukra, Shuchih, Nabhas,

Nabhasya, Isha, Urja, Sahas, Sahasya, Tapas and Tapasya respectively. The names of the seasons have come down to us since the time of

the Vedas”.

 

On page 423 of the same work (translated by K. S. Shukla, published

by INSA, Delhi) there is a table listing Chaitra etc. 12 months vis-à-vis Madhu

etc. Vedic months which have been clubbed with the respective seasons! IF

VATESHWARA COULD CALCULATE SOLAR AND LUNAR MONTHS WITHOUT THE “ASSISTANCE

OF” ARIES ETC. ASTROLOGICAL RASHIS, WHY CAN’T WE DO IT TODAY?

10. 1375 AD: A mantra in the Samaveda

Samhita 4/6/4/2 reads:

“Vasanto innur antyo greeshmo innur antyah varshani anu

sharado hemanta shishir innurantyah”

As per this mantra six seasons of Vasanta, Grishma etc. have been

discussed. And this is how Acharya Sayana of 14th century AD

has commented on it:

“Vasantah innu – vasant eva chaitra vaishakharupi

vasanta ritureva rantyah – ramaneeyah bhavati. Greeshma innu

jyeshtha ashadarupo greeshm ritureva rantyah ramaneeyah. Varshani varsha

shravan bhadrapad rupen avayavi bhuta pravrit ritur eva rantyah

ramaneeyah. Tanyanu sharadah ashvina kartika rupena avayaveebhoot rituh

rantyah ramaneeyah. Hemanta margasheersha pausha roop eve rantya

ramneeyah shishir innu magha phalguna roop eva rantyah ramneeyah”

A simple and running English translation of this commentary of

Sayana is “Vasanta comprises two months of Chaitra and Vaishakha.

Vasanta is a pleasant season. Greeshma comprises two months of Jyeshtha

and Ashada. It is a pleasant season. Varsha comprises two limbs of

Shravana and Bhadra. Varsha is a pleasant season. Ashvina and

Kartika are the two months of Sharad ritu. Sharad ritu is a pleasant

season. Margashersha and Pausha are the two months of Hemanta.

Hemanta is a pleasant season. Magha and Phalguna are the two months of

Shishira Ritu. Shishira Ritu is a pleasant season”.

 

We have thus seen above that right from the earliest Veda i.e. the

Rigveda (about 4000 BCE) till the end of the fourteenth century AD, there is an

unbroken stream of clubbing Chaitra, Vaishakha etc. lunar months with the solar

months of similar names and also Madhu and Madhava etc. solar months with the

lunar months of similar names without any assistance from any Aries etc.

astrological Rashis. Thus these very names serve the purpose of solar as

well as lunar months. We have seen that Acharya Sayana also has subsumed

Chaitra etc. months into Vasanta etc. seasons. It means that Chaitra etc.

were the names of solar months even according to him. Since these are

also the names of lunar months, obviously, lunar Chaitra would follow a solar

Chaitra, lunar Vaishakha a solar Vaishakha and so on.

 

Vedic months Madhu, Madhava are synonymns of Chaitra, Vaishakha

etc.

That completely accounts for the following pattern of the Vedic

calendar, as summarized by Dr. A. K. Bag, in (“History of Astronomy in

India”, published by INSA, Delhi) in his article “Astronomy in

Indus Civilization and during Vedic Times”. In fact, this is the

summary given by him as per the Taittiriya Samhita 4/4/11

a) Vasanta Ritu

comprising two solar months of Madhu and Madhava which are also known as

(solar) Chaitra and Vaishakha, with lunar Chaitra and Vaishakha following

the solar months of similar names.

b) Grishma Ritu comprising two

solar months of Shukrah and Shuchih, also known as (solar) Jyeshtha and Ashada,

with lunar Jyeshtha and Ashada following the respective solar months.

c) Varsha Ritu comprising two solar

months of Nabhas and Nabhasya also known as (solar) Shravana and Bhadra, with

the lunar Shravana and Bhadra following the respective solar months.

d) Sharad Ritu comprsing the two

solar months of Isha and Urja, also known as (solar) months of Ashvina and

Kartika, with lunar Ashvina and Kartika following their respective solar

months.

e) Hemanta Ritu comprising the two

solar months of Sahas and Sahasya, also known as (solar) months of

Margasheersha and Pausha, with lunar Margasheersha and Pausha

following their respective solar names.

f) Shishira Ritu comprising the two

solar months of Tapas and Tapasya, also known as (solar) months of Magha

and Phalguna, with lunar Magha and Phalguna following their respective

solar months.

 

THAT IS THUS THE REAL VEDIC CALENDAR, AS ADVOCATED BY THE VEDAS,

BRAHMANAS, THE VEDANGA JYOTISHA, THE MAHABHARATA AND OUR ACHARYAS LIKE

HARISWAMIN, VATESHWARA AND SAYANA.

 

Early Vedic lunar months were not necessarily as per Chitra etc.

nakshatra Full Moons:

Regarding the names of lunar months as per the Full Moon nakshatra,

this is the system being followed at present for Lahiri festivals. As we

have seen above, if we want to adopt the real Vedic calendar, we do not have to

run after a Full Moon conjoining a particular lunar nakshatra for the name of

that lunar month.

 

S. B. Dikshit has also clarified it at several places that the Full

Moon conjoining the relevant nakshatra for the names of lunar months is a much

later phenomenon. This is what he has said on page 30 of his work

(English translation of Part I):

“In short the terms Chaitra etc. were not in vogue in the

Samhita and Brahmana period. Thus it can be proved from the historical point of

view that these terms came into use after a very long period of time after the

terms Madhu, etc. became current”

 

But by the time of Vedanga Jyotisha (14th century BCE),

Chaitra etc. nomenclature for solar as well as lunar months, without reference

to either nakshatra based Purnimas or any Aries etc. astrological Rashis, had

got fully established.

A practical demonstration of this point is that the VJ says that

Dakshinayana-cum-solar (Nabhasya)-cum-Shravana always starts when the New Moon

(Amanta) falls in the middle of Ashlesha and Uttarayana-cum-Tapah-cum-Magha

always starts when the New Moon is in Dhanishtha. Neither of these two

conditions gets always fulfilled either for Dakshinayana or Uttarayana whether

we take Lahiri nakshata division or the so called sayana nakshatra division,

the simple reason being that according to the VJ, the nakshatras start from

Krittika instead of from Ashvini, and the year started from Uttarayana!

 

THAT IS WHY WE HAVE TO DO A RE-THNK ABOUT THE NAKSHATRA DIVISION AS

TO WHETHER IT SHOULD START FROM ASHVINI OR KRITTIKA AND WHETHER IT SHOULD BE AN

EQUAL DIVISION OF 27 NAKSHATRAS OR AN UNEQUAL DIVISION OF 28 NAKSHATRAS AS

SUGGESTED BY BHASKARA-I AND OTHER EALIER ACHARYAS. THAT IS APART FROM THE FACT

AS TO WHETHERE THE NAKHATRAS SHOULD BE SO CALLED SAYANA OR SO CALLED NIRAYANA!

(Pl. se my post “When was the real Onam”).

 

“Sayana Vedic astrology” falls on its face by dint of

the “crutches” of Sayana nakshatras!

WHILE TALKING ABOUT NAKSHATRAS, I MUST PUT ON RECORD THAT THE

GREATEST DRAW-BACK WITH NAKSHATRAS VIS-À-VIS THE SO CALLED SAYANA RASHIS IS

THAT ALL THE PROMINENT STARS, KNOWN AS “MILE POSTS”, ARE AWAY BY AT

LEAST TWENTY DEGREES FROM THE RELEVANT NAKSHATRA! E.g. The Star Ashvini (Beta

Arietis) had an ecliptic longitude of about 34 degrees as on January 1, 2000

whereas the nakshatra division of that (Ashvini) name of the so called Sayana

Rashichakra would range from 0 to 13-20’ i.e. the Ashvini Star is out of

the range by at least 20 degrees from the outermost limit of the nakshatra

division of that very name. Equally, Bharni Star (41 Arietis) had a longitude

of 48 degrees in 2000 AD whereas that division ranges from 13-20 to 26-40. Thus

Bharni star is out of range by at least 21 degrees from the outermost limit of

that very Bharani nakshatra division. Same is the case with all the other

nakshatras!

 

THOSE “JYOTISHIS” CLAMOURING FOR A SO CALLED SAYANA

RASHICHKARA FOR PREDICTIVE GIMMICKS DO NOT SEE THE IRONY THAT THEY WILL NOT BE

ABLE TO CALCULATE ANY OF THE DASHA-BHUKTIS CORRECTLY SINCE NO NAKSHATRA WILL

FALL IN THE RELEVANT DIVISION NOR WILL THE RELEVANT STAR HAVE ANYTHING TO DO

WITH THE NAME-SAKE OF THAT VERY NAKSHATRA DIVISION!

BUT THEN “SAYANA VEDIC JYOTSHIS” ARE HARDLY BETTER THAN

“NIRAYANA VEDIC JYOTISHIS” SINCE BOTH ARE BLIND TO THE WRITING ON

THE WALL!

 

“First Point of Aries” in the Kritika nakshatra

How useless the so called Sayana rashis are vis-à-vis the actual

Vedic nakshatras will be clear from the following example:

Shatapatha Brahmana 2/1/2/2 says “Krittikasu agnim

adadheeta…eta ha vai prachyai disho na chyavante…”. It

means, “One should get consecrated in Krittika nakshatra. They do

not deviate from the East”. Krittikas did not “deviate from

the East” since the “First Point of Aries” was in that

nakshatra then i.e. about 3000 BCE. This nakshatra division ranges from

26-10’ to 40-00 degrees. However, the longitude of the Krittika

star (Eta Tauri a.k.a. Alcyone) as on January 1, 2000 AD was about 60

degrees. Thus we will only be making a laughing stock of ourselves if we

try to link the so called sayana rashichakra to krittika nakshatra since it is

away by about 20 degrees from the extreme limit of that very nakshatra

division! Therefore it could hardly be such a non-existent krittika

nakshatra which our Vedic Rishis were talking about!

 

Nakshatras in the Mahabharata:

In the Shalya Parva 5/6, we find the following reference

“Chatvarimshad ahanyadya dve me nissritasya vai, pushyena

samprayatoasmi, shravane punaragatah”

Translation “I (Balarama) have been away for forty-two

days. I left this place on Pushya nakshatra and am back in Shravna nakshatra”

Obviously, these could not be imaginary so called sayana nakshatras

but the actual nakshatras or prominent stars of those names, with which the

moon had been conjunct during the period of forty-two days when Balarama was

away. Pushya to Punarvasu means 27 nakshatras/days (excluding Abhijit)

and then again Pushya to Shravana means 15 days. Thus it becomes 42 days

(if we include both Pushya the day of departure and Shravana the day of coming

back) but if we include Abhijit also, it will be 28 days from Pushya to

Punarvasu and then 14 days from Pushya to Utarashadha – excluding

Shravana. But since in the VJ, there are only 27 nakshatras, it appears the MBH

also has been calculating the lunar nakshatra days in multiples of 27 only.

Besides, Abhijita is a nakshatra of very short duration -- hardly a few

degrees, thus the lunar conjunction with that nakshatra could not be that long

to be taken as one day. It could have been subsumed in other nakshatras.

In any case, it goes to prove that instead of artificial nakshatra

divisions of the so called “Sayana Vedic Jyotishis” the MBh also

was taking into account the actual nakshatras.

 

Duplicate Chaitra etc. names

Coming

to your next point,

<If

at all duplicate nomenclature is to be used for the solar months, let it be on

the name of Rashis, as used in South India.>

 

We

have just seen in the commentary of Acharya Sayana as to how he clubbed Chaitra

etc. solar and lunar months with Vasanta etc. seasons.

 

Acharya

Sayana was a minister of Viajayanagar empire of South India besides being

the younger brother of Madhvacharya a.k.a. Vidyaranya Muni of the

“Panchadashi” fame. Acharya Sayana was a scholar of

extraordinary calibre and I have not seen yet any commentator of his stature who

has explained all the four Vedas in such an exhaustive and lucid manner.

There is hardly any scholar, whether from East or West, who does not

acknowledge the authority of Sayana about the Vedic interpretations.

Aries etc. Rashis were very much prevalent at Acharya Sayana’s time in

India – 14th century AD--since the Surya Sidhanta by Maya the

mlechha had got entrenched in our cultural ethos by then completely. THE

MILLION DOLLAR QUESTION THAT ARISES HERE IS AS TO WHY DID ACHARYA SAYANA SPURN

THE SO CALLED MESHA ETC. RASHIS AND TALK ABOUT CHAITRA, VIAISHAKHA ETC.

MONTHS VIS-À-VIS VEDIC SEASONS?

Obviously,

these Aries etc. signs being a creation of astrologers, did not suit him

(Acharya Sayana) at all, and he just ignored them with the disdain and

contempt these astrological rashis deserve. SCHOLARS THROUGHOUT INDIA

SHOULD EMULATE ACHARYA SAYANA IN THIS RESPECT i.e. they must spurn rashi based

calendar! But on the other hand, for the last about a hundred years, maximum

support of these good for nothing astrological rashis is being

provided/mustered by ”Vedic astrologers” through their astrological

magazines and “Vedic jyotisha” monthlies and so on and so

forth! These “scholars” also preside over several

“panchanga standardization committees” and are always back at

square one by opting for the same “almighty” Lahiri Rashichakra

that was being already used sine 1950, thanks to N. C. Lahiri’s jugglery!

Thus

these “Vedic scholars/astrologers” are decimating those very Vedas

that they pretend to defend and they are doing so just for the sake of sinful

crumbs which they earn by dint of “Vedic astrology”---i.e.

“correct predictions from incorrect data”!

 

I,

therefore, do not see any valid reason against naming Madhu, Madhava etc. Vedic

months as solar Chaitra and Vaishakha etc. as was done by every Seer from

Lagadha of the VJ to Acharya Syana of Samaveda Bhashya. These very names

can be used for lunar months.

 

Even

alternative names of solar momths can be without astrological rashis:

If,

however, you are still of the opinion that the use of Chaitra etc. names for

solar as well as lunar months will create some confusion, we can think over the

thirteen names of solar/lunar months as given in Taittiriya Brahmana

3/10/1. These are:

1)

Arunah; 2)Arunarajah; 3) Pundareekah; 4) Vishvajit; 5) Abhijit; 6) Ardrah 7)

Pinvaman; 8) Unnavan; 9) Rasavan; 10) Iravan; 11) Sarvaushadhah; 12) Sambharah;

13) Mahaswan

 

 

(Please

see page 27 of Dikshit’s “Bharatiya Jyotisha”--English

translation—Vol. I)

 

This

will obviate the necessity of duplicating Chaitra etc. names for solar as well

lunar months without our having to fall back upon Aries etc. astrological

rashis.

 

Amanta

and Purnimanta systems -- both can and should continue:

Regarding

your earlier suggestion that there should be one pattern of lunar months

throughout India i.e. they should be either Amanta (New Moon to New Moon) or

Purnimanta (Full Moon to Full Moon), I am of the opinion that we must continue

with both the systems since both of them are Vedic, as explained by me in one

of my earlier posts to you about the same. I do not want to make any

changes in any pattern arbitrarily unless and until they are warranted by the

Vedas and are unavoidable. We are almost divided in the middle ---

half of India celebrating Amanta and half Purnimanta – and it will create

further confusion when we change the system from Makara to Tapah and then ask

Northern India to make Krishna Paksha follow Shukla paksha or South and Central

India etc. etc. to put Krishna Paksha before Shukla Paksha. It will take

them a considerable time to get to grips with that double confusion, without

any advantage or plus points. It is also not necessary that they will

agree with this suggestion of ours, since it is not an easy job to change the

settled pattern

 

Sayana

versus Nirayana is the worst conflict:

Thus,

in any case, once we shun Aries etc. Rashis completely for the real Vedic

Calendar, we shall then not have to enter into an endless discussion and

conflict with either “Vedic” or “anti-Vedic” or

“non-Vedic” jyotishis, since we will not be using rashis at all for

Vedic calendar, which means there will be no confusion whether the rashis are

sayana or nirayana. Let the jyotishis continue to wallow in the mud of those

sayana and Lahiri and Ramana and Fagan Rashis and give a full demonstration of

their charlatanism but at least our “Vedic calendar” will steer

clear of the same since we will not refer to Aries etc. astrological Rashsi as

our Vedic Rishis never referred to them, at least in respect of deciding the

calendar.

AND

THAT IS NO MEAN ACHIEVEMENT.

Sayana

versus Nirayana was the main reason of the failure of “Calendar

Reform”

Before

closing this note, I must put on record my views as to why the earlier efforts

of streamlining the calendar failed:

As

we know through “Bharatiya Jyotisha Shastra” of Dikshit and other

works, real scholars of Vedic lore were feeling highly perturbed with the

anachronism of celebrating Uttarayana etc. phenomena after at least a fortnight

or so of the actual phenomenon over the last about couple of hundred

years. They also tried to put it back on rails and quite a few seminars

were held; quite a few “calendar reform committees” established,

but it had just become a zero sums game! Almost every “Committee”

had recommended the so called Sayana Rashis for celebrating festivals etc. but

the efforts were never successful in spite of even the Jagadguru Shankarachrya

of Dwarka, on a representation by V. R. Lele, issuing an Adesha-Patra more than

a 100 years back (in Shaka 1814)that only (so called) Sayana rashis must be

used for deciding fairs and festivals (Pl. see “Bharatiya Jyotish

Shastra”). But now the same Dwarka Peetha, including the current

Jagadguru Shankaracharya of that Peetha, is celebrating all its festivals and

muhurtas not as per the Vedas or other shastras, but as “dictated”

by “almighty” Lahiri! WHY? Only because all these

“reformists” were talking of (so called) Sayana rashis, which is an

anathema to “Vedic Jyotishis”! They just do not want to lose

their sinful crumbs, however hard we may try to instil God’s fear into

them! Money for them is more powerful and intoxicating than Jeevan Mukti!

THEREFORE,

IT IS BETTER TO SHELVE THE RASHIS COMPLETELY -- WHETEHR THE SO CALLED

SAYANA OR THE SO CALLED NIRAYANA – FOR THE PURPOSE OF STREAMLINING OUR

CALENDAR! LET US PREPARE A “TITHI-PATRAK’ WHICH DOES NOT

CARRY THE NAMES OF ANY RASHIS, SO THAT WE CELEBRATE OUR FESTIVALS ON CORRECT

DAYS AND LET THE “SAYANA VEDIC ASTROLOGERS” AS WELL AS THE

“NIRAYANA VEDIC ASTROLOGERS” CONTINUE TO “MAKE CORRECT

PREDEICTIONS FROM INCORRECT DATA”.

We

must, therefore, select the seasonal year with Madhu, Madhava etc. months with

Aruna et. synonyms and Vasanta etc. seasons plus Chaitra, Vaishakha etc.

solar/lunar months coupled with Krittika etc. actual 28 nakshatras (including

Abhijit) instead of the so called sayana or nirayana nakshatra division of 27

equal nakshatras.

With

regards,

Avtar

Krishen Kaul

 

---

In , " utkal.panigrahi "

<utkal.panigrahi wrote:

>

 

Re: Festivals - Nakshathra and

Rashi - Samveda Mantra !!

 

 

I m happy to post Samveda Mantra as I m a Samvediya Kauthumiya Brahmin,

the day I came to know about my lineage, I started efforts for studying

Samveda.

 

--------------------------

 

Mantra No # 222

 

|| Idam Vishnu-Rvi Chaktrame Tri-dha Ni Dadhe Padam, Samooddh Masya

Paa-Ansule ||

 

The mantra recounts God Vishnu has measured the world in 3 steps.

 

Earlier, I found a similar shloka in Rik Veda also, but, don't remember

exactly in what mandal it was there.

 

--------------------------

 

Mantra No. # 616 (Note : it clearly mentions 6 Ritu (seasons)

happening in the land of Vedas.

 

|| Vasant Innu Rantiyo Greeshma Innu Rantiyah, Varsha Innu Sharado

Hemantah Shishir Innu Rantiyah !!

 

Note : I saw you people were trying to find out reference to 6 seasons

in one of the postings, what was the context, I dont remember, but, pls

be informed that Samveda Rishis were knowing 6 Ritu or Seasons.

 

--------------------------

 

 

Mantra No. # 632 ( measurement of day)

 

 

|| Trinsh-a-Ddhvam Vi Rajati Vakpat-Angaya Dhiyate, Prati Vastorah

Dyu-Bhiha ||

 

Mnatra says that Sun lights up for 30 ghatis ( i.e. half a day, 60

ghatis make a day)

 

--------------------------

 

Reference to Nakschhatras is given in

 

Mantra No. # 633

 

|| Aaaptye Taa-ya-yo Yatha Nakschhtra Yntya-Yukti-Bhi-ahi, Suryaya

Vishwa Chakschhase ||

 

 

 

regards,

Utkal.

 

[Guest guest]

Shri Utkal Panigrahiji,

 

Jai Shri Ram!

 

The following post was splashed in HinduCalendar forum several years back.

 

This will give you and idea as to how and why the real Hindu calendar should

be without the mess known as Mesha, Vrisha etc. Rashis----whether so called

Sayana or so called nirayana, especially in view of the mantras from the

Samaveda and their commentary by Acharya Sayana!

 

Regards,

 

AKK

 

*** **** ****

***

 

Shri Narayan Prasad ji,

 

Namaste!

 

I am indeed thankful to you for prodding me to make my thoughts about Vedic

luni-solar months etc. articulate and cohesive. I, therefore, request you to

please go through this post carefully so that we take some constructive

steps in the right direction for streamlining our calendars at the earliest.

 

 

 

The shlokas quoted by Diksit are from recent works:

 

The two sholkas that you have quoted from “Bahratiya Jyotish Shastra” of S.

B. Dikshit in support of Rashi based lunar months, are actually from “Kala

Madhava” of thirteenth century and “Kala Tattva Vivechan” of sixteenth

century AD. As such, both these works are quite recent ones and it is not

surprising at all that they have advocated to calculate lunar months

vis-à-vis astrological Rashis like Aries, Taurus etc.

 

 

 

Vedic calendars were framed without astrological Rashis:

 

However, the task we have at our hands is to streamline our calendars in

accordance with the Vedic lore that should be applicable to whole of India

and not as per Narada etc. Purana, that is based on the Surya Sidhanta of

Maya the mlechha, or some so called Jyotisha shastra etc.

 

Let us, therefore, see the relevant references for that purpose i.e., the

real fundamentals of the calendar as it existed during the Vedic and

post-Vedic period.

 

 

 

1. 4000 BCE: The earliest reference---at least of around 4000 BCE----we

have to an intercalary month (adhika-masa) is in the Rigveda 1/25/8. An

adhika-masa can take place only when lunar synodic months are calculated

vis-à-vis solar sankrantis. Since in the Vedic period only Madhu, Madhava

etc. solar months and not Aries etc. astrological rashis were in vogue, it

means that even the earliest references to lunar months in the Vedas are

without Mesha etc. Rashis but in relation to Madhu, Madhava etc. solar/lunar

months.

2. 3000 BCE: Taittiriya Samhita 1/4/14 says: “Madhushcha madhavashcha

shukrashcha shuchishcha nabhashcha nabhasyashcha ishashcha oorjashcha

sahashcha sahasyashcha tapashcha tapasyashchai up yam griheeto asi samsarpo

asi amhaspatyay tva”

 

Here Madhu, Madhava etc. twelve months have been named and then samsarpa is

the thirteenth (intercalary/adhika) month and amhaspati a decayed (kshyaya)

month. THERE ARE NO RASHIS HERE AND LUNAR MONTHS, INCLUDING

ADHIKA/KSHAYA-MASA, WERE RELATED TO MADHU, MADHAVA ETC. SOLAR MONTHS AND

EVEN NAMED AS (LUNAR, APART FROM SOLAR) MADHU, MADHAVA ETC. WITHOUT ANY

DOUBT.

 

3. Again the same Taitiriya Samhita 5/6/7 says “shadratrir deekshitah

syat shadva ritavah samvatsarah…dwadasha ratreer deekshitah syat dwadasha

masah samvatsarah… trayodasha ratreer deekshitah syat, trayodasha masah

samvatsarah”

 

i.e. “One should get consecrated for six days as the year comprises six

seasons. One should get consecrated for 12 days as the year comprises 12

months. One should get consecrated for 13 days as the year comprises 13

months (including an adhika masa)”. There are no rashis involved here but

the solar months Madhu, Madhava etc. are implied because of references to

six seasons, and thereby the lunar months are related to those very solar

months.

 

4. 3000 BCE: Vajasaneya Samhita 22/31 says:

 

“Madhave svaha, madhavay svaha, shukray svaha shuchaye svaha, nabhase svaha,

nabhasyaya svaha, ishay svaha, oorjay svaha, sahase svaha, sahasyay svaha,

tapase svaha, tapasyaya svaha, amhaspataye svaha”

 

Here all the twelve solar months of Madhu, Madhava etc. have been named

consecutively and the thirteenth month has been named as amhaspati.

Obviously, the thirteenth is an adhika lunar month. Thus as per this proof

also, lunar months were known by the names of solar months of Madhu, Madhva

etc. in early Vedic days!

 

..

 

5. 3000 BCE and 100 BCE: In Shatapatha Brahmana 4/5/14 we find “Upayama

griheeto asi Madhave tu etyeva advaryur-grihnati upyama griheeto asi

madhavay tveti pratiprastha taitaveva vasantikav sayad vasante aushadhayo

jayante vanaspatayah pachyante tena haitav madhushcha madhavshcha”

 

Translation “Since in the Vasnata (spring season) grains in the fields start

sprouting that is why the two months of that season are known as Madhu and

Madhvava”.

 

The commentary on this mantra by Shri Hari-Swamin says, “Madhu Madhavaviti

chaitra vaishakhav ritu grahanam chaitradayo masah devatah. Chaitra

vaishakhayor madhu madhava namdheya praptim darshayati. Etav uktav masav

vasantikav”

 

Translation “Madhu and Madhava are Chaitra and Vaishakha as they are the two

months of Spring season. As such the shruti has shown the names of Chaitra

and Vaishakha as Madhu and Madhava”

 

Shri Hari-Swamin is said to be a scholar of around first century BCE. It

means that the tradition of calling solar months Madhu, Madhava by lunar

names like Caitra, Vaishakha etc. and vice-versa was prevailing then.

 

 

 

6. 1400 BCE: Acharya Lagadha’s Vedanga Jyotisha says:

 

“Svarakramete somarkav yada sakam savasavav, syat tadadi yugam maghastapah

shuklo ayanam hyudak”

 

As per Dikshit’s translation, it means ”When the sun and the moon while

moving in the sky, come to Vasava (Dhanishtha i.e. Beta Delphini) star

together, then the yuga, the Magha (month), the tapas (seasonal month), the

light half of the month, and the Winter Solstice, all commence together”.

 

7. Sixth mantra of the same VJ says

 

“Prapadyate shavishthadav surya chandramasav udak, sarpardhe dkshinarkastu,

magha shravanayoh sada”

 

Dikshit’s translation: “The sun and the moon turn towards North in the

beginning of Dhanishtha and towards South in the middle of Ashlesha. The

sun always does this in the month of Magha and Shravana”

 

THIS IS THE VERY FIRST INDIGENOUS ASTRONOMICAL WORK OF 14TH CENTURY BCE AND

HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH SO CALLED ARIES ETC. RASHIS, WHETHER

SAYANA OR NIRAYANA, BUT TELLS US THE METHODLOGY OF CALCULATING ALL THE

TWELVE MONTHS, BOTH SOLAR AND LUNAR, LIKE TAPAH AND MAGHA, APART FROM WINTER

SOLSTICE AND SUMMER SOLSTICE ETC. IF ACHARYA LAGADHA COULD DO IT IN EARLY

14TH CENTURY BCE, WITHOUT INVOLVING ANY ARIES ETC. ASTROLOGICAL RASHIS, WHY

CAN’T WE DO IT TODAY?

 

8. 1400 BCE to 400 BCE: The Mahabharata contains quite a few “finishing

touches” of a post Vedanga Jyotisha Era since it follows the VJ methodology

for calculating adhika-masa etc. This “itihasa” could therefore be of a

period of 1400 BCE to 400 BCE, since the latter was the period when

Graecho-Chaldean rashis had started gaining a foothold in India. Mangal,

Shani etc. planets, had, however been propagated in India prior to 400 BCE,

as is evident from the Atharva Jyotisha of about 500 BCE. That is why there

is no mention of Aries etc. astrological rashis in the MBh either but there

are references to nakshatras times without number. We also find reference

to Magha, Kaumudi etc. months at several places. In the Gita, which is a

part of the MBh, Lord Krishna has identified Himself with Margasheersha.

 

Besides, it is also common knowledge that Bhishma waited for Uttarayana to

shed off his mortal coil but we do not find even by mistake anywhere in the

entire MBh any mention of Makara Rashi/sankranti, which is supposed to be

the synonym of Utarayana by “Sayana Vedic jyotishis”. Similarly, Bhishma is

said to have shed off his mortal coil on Magha Shukla ashtami in Rohini

nakshatra as per Shanti Parva 47/3 which reads as:

 

“shuklapakshyasyashtamyam maghamasasya parthiva, prajapatye cha nakshatre

madyam prapte divakare….”

 

Here Magha Shukla ashtami and Rohini nakshatra have been mentioned clearly

without any reference to any Makara etc. rashi/sankranti. Same is the case

with several other references in the MBh, which proves it beyond any doubt

that Magha, Phalguna etc. solar/lunar months besides Uttarayana etc.

phenomena were calculated during those days also without any “assistance

from” Aries etc. astrological Rashis!

 

 

 

9. 875 AD: Vateshwara Sidhanta and Gola, a work of 9th century AD, says

in Chapter 3, verse 29 “The months Chaitra, Vaishakha etc. are called,

according to the Vedas, Madhu, Madhava, Shukra, Shuchih, Nabhas, Nabhasya,

Isha, Urja, Sahas, Sahasya, Tapas and Tapasya respectively. The names of

the seasons have come down to us since the time of the Vedas”.

 

On page 423 of the same work (translated by K. S. Shukla, published by INSA,

Delhi) there is a table listing Chaitra etc. 12 months vis-à-vis Madhu etc.

Vedic months which have been clubbed with the respective seasons! IF

VATESHWARA COULD CALCULATE SOLAR AND LUNAR MONTHS WITHOUT THE “ASSISTANCE

OF” ARIES ETC. ASTROLOGICAL RASHIS, WHY CAN’T WE DO IT TODAY?

 

10. 1375 AD: A mantra in the Samaveda Samhita 4/6/4/2 reads:

 

“Vasanto innur antyo greeshmo innur antyah varshani anu sharado hemanta

shishir innurantyah”

 

As per this mantra six seasons of Vasanta, Grishma etc. have been discussed.

And this is how Acharya Sayana of 14th century AD has commented on it:

 

“Vasantah innu – vasant eva chaitra vaishakharupi vasanta ritureva rantyah –

ramaneeyah bhavati. Greeshma innu jyeshtha ashadarupo greeshm ritureva

rantyah ramaneeyah. Varshani varsha shravan bhadrapad rupen avayavi bhuta

pravrit ritur eva rantyah ramaneeyah. Tanyanu sharadah ashvina kartika

rupena avayaveebhoot rituh rantyah ramaneeyah. Hemanta margasheersha pausha

roop eve rantya ramneeyah shishir innu magha phalguna roop eva rantyah

ramneeyah”

 

 

 

A simple and running English translation of this commentary of Sayana is

“Vasanta comprises two months of Chaitra and Vaishakha. Vasanta is a

pleasant season. Greeshma comprises two months of Jyeshtha and Ashada. It

is a pleasant season. Varsha comprises two limbs of Shravana and Bhadra.

Varsha is a pleasant season. Ashvina and Kartika are the two months of

Sharad ritu. Sharad ritu is a pleasant season. Margashersha and Pausha are

the two months of Hemanta. Hemanta is a pleasant season. Magha and

Phalguna are the two months of Shishira Ritu. Shishira Ritu is a pleasant

season”.

 

 

 

We have thus seen above that right from the earliest Veda i.e. the Rigveda

(about 4000 BCE) till the end of the fourteenth century AD, there is an

unbroken stream of clubbing Chaitra, Vaishakha etc. lunar months with the

solar months of similar names and also Madhu and Madhava etc. solar months

with the lunar months of similar names without any assistance from any Aries

etc. astrological Rashis. Thus these very names serve the purpose of solar

as well as lunar months. We have seen that Acharya Sayana also has subsumed

Chaitra etc. months into Vasanta etc. seasons. It means that Chaitra etc.

were the names of solar months even according to him. Since these are also

the names of lunar months, obviously, lunar Chaitra would follow a solar

Chaitra, lunar Vaishakha a solar Vaishakha and so on.

 

 

 

Vedic months Madhu, Madhava are synonymns of Chaitra, Vaishakha etc.

 

That completely accounts for the following pattern of the Vedic calendar, as

summarized by Dr. A. K. Bag, in (“History of Astronomy in India”, published

by INSA, Delhi) in his article “Astronomy in Indus Civilization and during

Vedic Times”. In fact, this is the summary given by him as per the

Taittiriya Samhita 4/4/11

 

a) Vasanta Ritu comprising two solar months of Madhu and Madhava which

are also known as (solar) Chaitra and Vaishakha, with lunar Chaitra and

Vaishakha following the solar months of similar names.

 

b) Grishma Ritu comprising two solar months of Shukrah and Shuchih, also

known as (solar) Jyeshtha and Ashada, with lunar Jyeshtha and Ashada

following the respective solar months.

 

c) Varsha Ritu comprising two solar months of Nabhas and Nabhasya also

known as (solar) Shravana and Bhadra, with the lunar Shravana and Bhadra

following the respective solar months.

 

d) Sharad Ritu comprsing the two solar months of Isha and Urja, also

known as (solar) months of Ashvina and Kartika, with lunar Ashvina and

Kartika following their respective solar months.

 

e) Hemanta Ritu comprising the two solar months of Sahas and Sahasya,

also known as (solar) months of Margasheersha and Pausha, with lunar

Margasheersha and Pausha following their respective solar names.

 

f) Shishira Ritu comprising the two solar months of Tapas and Tapasya,

also known as (solar) months of Magha and Phalguna, with lunar Magha and

Phalguna following their respective solar months.

 

 

 

THAT IS THUS THE REAL VEDIC CALENDAR, AS ADVOCATED BY THE VEDAS, BRAHMANAS,

THE VEDANGA JYOTISHA, THE MAHABHARATA AND OUR ACHARYAS LIKE HARISWAMIN,

VATESHWARA AND SAYANA.

 

 

 

Early Vedic lunar months were not necessarily as per Chitra etc. nakshatra

Full Moons:

 

Regarding the names of lunar months as per the Full Moon nakshatra, this is

the system being followed at present for Lahiri festivals. As we have seen

above, if we want to adopt the real Vedic calendar, we do not have to run

after a Full Moon conjoining a particular lunar nakshatra for the name of

that lunar month.

 

 

 

S. B. Dikshit has also clarified it at several places that the Full Moon

conjoining the relevant nakshatra for the names of lunar months is a much

later phenomenon. This is what he has said on page 30 of his work (English

translation of Part I):

 

“In short the terms Chaitra etc. were not in vogue in the Samhita and

Brahmana period. Thus it can be proved from the historical point of view

that these terms came into use after a very long period of time after the

terms Madhu, etc. became current”

 

 

 

But by the time of Vedanga Jyotisha (14th century BCE), Chaitra etc.

nomenclature for solar as well as lunar months, without reference to either

nakshatra based Purnimas or any Aries etc. astrological Rashis, had got

fully established.

 

A practical demonstration of this point is that the VJ says that

Dakshinayana-cum-solar (Nabhasya)-cum-Shravana always starts when the New

Moon (Amanta) falls in the middle of Ashlesha and

Uttarayana-cum-Tapah-cum-Magha always starts when the New Moon is in

Dhanishtha. Neither of these two conditions gets always fulfilled either

for Dakshinayana or Uttarayana whether we take Lahiri nakshata division or

the so called sayana nakshatra division, the simple reason being that

according to the VJ, the nakshatras start from Krittika instead of from

Ashvini, and the year started from Uttarayana!

 

 

 

THAT IS WHY WE HAVE TO DO A RE-THNK ABOUT THE NAKSHATRA DIVISION AS TO

WHETHER IT SHOULD START FROM ASHVINI OR KRITTIKA AND WHETHER IT SHOULD BE AN

EQUAL DIVISION OF 27 NAKSHATRAS OR AN UNEQUAL DIVISION OF 28 NAKSHATRAS AS

SUGGESTED BY BHASKARA-I AND OTHER EALIER ACHARYAS. THAT IS APART FROM THE

FACT AS TO WHETHERE THE NAKHATRAS SHOULD BE SO CALLED SAYANA OR SO CALLED

NIRAYANA!

 

(Pl. se my post “When was the real Onam”).

 

 

 

“Sayana Vedic astrology” falls on its face by dint of the “crutches” of

Sayana nakshatras!

 

WHILE TALKING ABOUT NAKSHATRAS, I MUST PUT ON RECORD THAT THE GREATEST

DRAW-BACK WITH NAKSHATRAS VIS-À-VIS THE SO CALLED SAYANA RASHIS IS THAT ALL

THE PROMINENT STARS, KNOWN AS “MILE POSTS”, ARE AWAY BY AT LEAST TWENTY

DEGREES FROM THE RELEVANT NAKSHATRA! E.g. The Star Ashvini (Beta Arietis)

had an ecliptic longitude of about 34 degrees as on January 1, 2000 whereas

the nakshatra division of that (Ashvini) name of the so called Sayana

Rashichakra would range from 0 to 13-20’ i.e. the Ashvini Star is out of the

range by at least 20 degrees from the outermost limit of the nakshatra

division of that very name. Equally, Bharni Star (41 Arietis) had a

longitude of 48 degrees in 2000 AD whereas that division ranges from 13-20

to 26-40. Thus Bharni star is out of range by at least 21 degrees from the

outermost limit of that very Bharani nakshatra division. Same is the case

with all the other nakshatras!

 

 

 

THOSE “JYOTISHIS” CLAMOURING FOR A SO CALLED SAYANA RASHICHKARA FOR

PREDICTIVE GIMMICKS DO NOT SEE THE IRONY THAT THEY WILL NOT BE ABLE TO

CALCULATE ANY OF THE DASHA-BHUKTIS CORRECTLY SINCE NO NAKSHATRA WILL FALL IN

THE RELEVANT DIVISION NOR WILL THE RELEVANT STAR HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH

THE NAME-SAKE OF THAT VERY NAKSHATRA DIVISION!

 

BUT THEN “SAYANA VEDIC JYOTSHIS” ARE HARDLY BETTER THAN “NIRAYANA VEDIC

JYOTISHIS” SINCE BOTH ARE BLIND TO THE WRITING ON THE WALL!

 

 

 

“First Point of Aries” in the Kritika nakshatra

 

How useless the so called Sayana rashis are vis-à-vis the actual Vedic

nakshatras will be clear from the following example:

 

Shatapatha Brahmana 2/1/2/2 says “Krittikasu agnim adadheeta…eta ha vai

prachyai disho na chyavante…”. It means, “One should get consecrated in

Krittika nakshatra. They do not deviate from the East”. Krittikas did not

“deviate from the East” since the “First Point of Aries” was in that

nakshatra then i.e. about 3000 BCE. This nakshatra division ranges from

26-10’ to 40-00 degrees. However, the longitude of the Krittika star (Eta

Tauri a.k.a. Alcyone) as on January 1, 2000 AD was about 60 degrees. Thus

we will only be making a laughing stock of ourselves if we try to link the

so called sayana rashichakra to krittika nakshatra since it is away by about

20 degrees from the extreme limit of that very nakshatra division!

Therefore it could hardly be such a non-existent krittika nakshatra which

our Vedic Rishis were talking about!

 

 

 

Nakshatras in the Mahabharata:

 

In the Shalya Parva 5/6, we find the following reference

 

“Chatvarimshad ahanyadya dve me nissritasya vai, pushyena samprayatoasmi,

shravane punaragatah”

 

Translation “I (Balarama) have been away for forty-two days. I left this

place on Pushya nakshatra and am back in Shravna nakshatra”

 

Obviously, these could not be imaginary so called sayana nakshatras but the

actual nakshatras or prominent stars of those names, with which the moon had

been conjunct during the period of forty-two days when Balarama was away.

Pushya to Punarvasu means 27 nakshatras/days (excluding Abhijit) and then

again Pushya to Shravana means 15 days. Thus it becomes 42 days (if we

include both Pushya the day of departure and Shravana the day of coming

back) but if we include Abhijit also, it will be 28 days from Pushya to

Punarvasu and then 14 days from Pushya to Utarashadha – excluding Shravana.

But since in the VJ, there are only 27 nakshatras, it appears the MBH also

has been calculating the lunar nakshatra days in multiples of 27 only.

Besides, Abhijita is a nakshatra of very short duration -- hardly a few

degrees, thus the lunar conjunction with that nakshatra could not be that

long to be taken as one day. It could have been subsumed in other

nakshatras.

 

In any case, it goes to prove that instead of artificial nakshatra divisions

of the so called “Sayana Vedic Jyotishis” the MBh also was taking into

account the actual nakshatras.

 

 

 

Duplicate Chaitra etc. names

 

Coming to your next point,

 

<If at all duplicate nomenclature is to be used for the solar months, let it

be on the name of Rashis, as used in South India.>

 

 

 

We have just seen in the commentary of Acharya Sayana as to how he clubbed

Chaitra etc. solar and lunar months with Vasanta etc. seasons.

 

 

 

Acharya Sayana was a minister of Viajayanagar empire of South India

besides being the younger brother of Madhvacharya a.k.a. Vidyaranya Muni of

the “Panchadashi” fame. Acharya Sayana was a scholar of extraordinary

calibre and I have not seen yet any commentator of his stature who has

explained all the four Vedas in such an exhaustive and lucid manner. There

is hardly any scholar, whether from East or West, who does not acknowledge

the authority of Sayana about the Vedic interpretations. Aries etc. Rashis

were very much prevalent at Acharya Sayana’s time in India – 14th century

AD--since the Surya Sidhanta by Maya the mlechha had got entrenched in our

cultural ethos by then completely. THE MILLION DOLLAR QUESTION THAT ARISES

HERE IS AS TO WHY DID ACHARYA SAYANA SPURN THE SO CALLED MESHA ETC. RASHIS

AND TALK ABOUT CHAITRA, VIAISHAKHA ETC. MONTHS VIS-À-VIS VEDIC SEASONS?

 

Obviously, these Aries etc. signs being a creation of astrologers, did not

suit him (Acharya Sayana) at all, and he just ignored them with the disdain

and contempt these astrological rashis deserve. SCHOLARS THROUGHOUT INDIA

SHOULD EMULATE ACHARYA SAYANA IN THIS RESPECT i.e. they must spurn rashi

based calendar! But on the other hand, for the last about a hundred years,

maximum support of these good for nothing astrological rashis is being

provided/mustered by ”Vedic astrologers” through their astrological

magazines and “Vedic jyotisha” monthlies and so on and so forth! These

“scholars” also preside over several “panchanga standardization committees”

and are always back at square one by opting for the same “almighty” Lahiri

Rashichakra that was being already used sine 1950, thanks to N. C. Lahiri’s

jugglery!

 

Thus these “Vedic scholars/astrologers” are decimating those very Vedas that

they pretend to defend and they are doing so just for the sake of sinful

crumbs which they earn by dint of “Vedic astrology”---i.e. “correct

predictions from incorrect data”!

 

 

 

I, therefore, do not see any valid reason against naming Madhu, Madhava etc.

Vedic months as solar Chaitra and Vaishakha etc. as was done by every Seer

from Lagadha of the VJ to Acharya Syana of Samaveda Bhashya. These very

names can be used for lunar months.

 

 

 

Even alternative names of solar momths can be without astrological rashis:

 

If, however, you are still of the opinion that the use of Chaitra etc. names

for solar as well as lunar months will create some confusion, we can think

over the thirteen names of solar/lunar months as given in Taittiriya

Brahmana 3/10/1. These are:

 

1) Arunah; 2)Arunarajah; 3) Pundareekah; 4) Vishvajit; 5) Abhijit; 6) Ardrah

7) Pinvaman; 8) Unnavan; 9) Rasavan; 10) Iravan; 11) Sarvaushadhah; 12)

Sambharah; 13) Mahaswan

 

 

 

(Please see page 27 of Dikshit’s “Bharatiya Jyotisha”--English

translation—Vol. I)

 

 

 

This will obviate the necessity of duplicating Chaitra etc. names for solar

as well lunar months without our having to fall back upon Aries etc.

astrological rashis.

 

 

 

Amanta and Purnimanta systems -- both can and should continue:

 

Regarding your earlier suggestion that there should be one pattern of lunar

months throughout India i.e. they should be either Amanta (New Moon to New

Moon) or Purnimanta (Full Moon to Full Moon), I am of the opinion that we

must continue with both the systems since both of them are Vedic, as

explained by me in one of my earlier posts to you about the same. I do not

want to make any changes in any pattern arbitrarily unless and until they

are warranted by the Vedas and are unavoidable. We are almost divided in

the middle --- half of India celebrating Amanta and half Purnimanta – and

it will create further confusion when we change the system from Makara to

Tapah and then ask Northern India to make Krishna Paksha follow Shukla

paksha or South and Central India etc. etc. to put Krishna Paksha before

Shukla Paksha. It will take them a considerable time to get to grips with

that double confusion, without any advantage or plus points. It is also not

necessary that they will agree with this suggestion of ours, since it is not

an easy job to change the settled pattern

 

 

 

Sayana versus Nirayana is the worst conflict:

 

Thus, in any case, once we shun Aries etc. Rashis completely for the real

Vedic Calendar, we shall then not have to enter into an endless discussion

and conflict with either “Vedic” or “anti-Vedic” or “non-Vedic” jyotishis,

since we will not be using rashis at all for Vedic calendar, which means

there will be no confusion whether the rashis are sayana or nirayana. Let

the jyotishis continue to wallow in the mud of those sayana and Lahiri and

Ramana and Fagan Rashis and give a full demonstration of their charlatanism

but at least our “Vedic calendar” will steer clear of the same since we will

not refer to Aries etc. astrological Rashsi as our Vedic Rishis never

referred to them, at least in respect of deciding the calendar.

 

AND THAT IS NO MEAN ACHIEVEMENT.

 

Sayana versus Nirayana was the main reason of the failure of “Calendar

Reform”

 

Before closing this note, I must put on record my views as to why the

earlier efforts of streamlining the calendar failed:

 

As we know through “Bharatiya Jyotisha Shastra” of Dikshit and other works,

real scholars of Vedic lore were feeling highly perturbed with the

anachronism of celebrating Uttarayana etc. phenomena after at least a

fortnight or so of the actual phenomenon over the last about couple of

hundred years. They also tried to put it back on rails and quite a few

seminars were held; quite a few “calendar reform committees” established,

but it had just become a zero sums game! Almost every “Committee” had

recommended the so called Sayana Rashis for celebrating festivals etc. but

the efforts were never successful in spite of even the Jagadguru

Shankarachrya of Dwarka, on a representation by V. R. Lele, issuing an

Adesha-Patra more than a 100 years back (in Shaka 1814)that only (so called)

Sayana rashis must be used for deciding fairs and festivals (Pl. see

“Bharatiya Jyotish Shastra”). But now the same Dwarka Peetha, including the

current Jagadguru Shankaracharya of that Peetha, is celebrating all its

festivals and muhurtas not as per the Vedas or other shastras, but as

“dictated” by “almighty” Lahiri! WHY? Only because all these “reformists”

were talking of (so called) Sayana rashis, which is an anathema to “Vedic

Jyotishis”! They just do not want to lose their sinful crumbs, however hard

we may try to instil God’s fear into them! Money for them is more powerful

and intoxicating than Jeevan Mukti!

 

THEREFORE, IT IS BETTER TO SHELVE THE RASHIS COMPLETELY -- WHETEHR THE SO

CALLED SAYANA OR THE SO CALLED NIRAYANA – FOR THE PURPOSE OF STREAMLINING

OUR CALENDAR! LET US PREPARE A “TITHI-PATRAK’ WHICH DOES NOT CARRY THE

NAMES OF ANY RASHIS, SO THAT WE CELEBRATE OUR FESTIVALS ON CORRECT DAYS AND

LET THE “SAYANA VEDIC ASTROLOGERS” AS WELL AS THE “NIRAYANA VEDIC

ASTROLOGERS” CONTINUE TO “MAKE CORRECT PREDEICTIONS FROM INCORRECT DATA”.

 

We must, therefore, select the seasonal year with Madhu, Madhava etc. months

with Aruna et. synonyms and Vasanta etc. seasons plus Chaitra, Vaishakha

etc. solar/lunar months coupled with Krittika etc. actual 28 nakshatras

(including Abhijit) instead of the so called sayana or nirayana nakshatra

division of 27 equal nakshatras.

 

With regards,

 

Avtar Krishen Kaul

 

 

 

, " utkal.panigrahi " <utkal.panigrahi

wrote:

 

>

 

 

 

Re: Festivals - Nakshathra and Rashi - Samveda Mantra !!

 

 

 

 

I m happy to post Samveda Mantra as I m a Samvediya Kauthumiya Brahmin,

the day I came to know about my lineage, I started efforts for studying

Samveda.

 

--------------------------

 

Mantra No # 222

 

|| Idam Vishnu-Rvi Chaktrame Tri-dha Ni Dadhe Padam, Samooddh Masya

Paa-Ansule ||

 

The mantra recounts God Vishnu has measured the world in 3 steps.

 

Earlier, I found a similar shloka in Rik Veda also, but, don't remember

exactly in what mandal it was there.

 

--------------------------

 

Mantra No. # 616 (Note : it clearly mentions 6 Ritu (seasons)

happening in the land of Vedas.

 

|| Vasant Innu Rantiyo Greeshma Innu Rantiyah, Varsha Innu Sharado

Hemantah Shishir Innu Rantiyah !!

 

Note : I saw you people were trying to find out reference to 6 seasons

in one of the postings, what was the context, I dont remember, but, pls

be informed that Samveda Rishis were knowing 6 Ritu or Seasons.

 

--------------------------

 

 

Mantra No. # 632 ( measurement of day)

 

 

|| Trinsh-a-Ddhvam Vi Rajati Vakpat-Angaya Dhiyate, Prati Vastorah

Dyu-Bhiha ||

 

Mnatra says that Sun lights up for 30 ghatis ( i.e. half a day, 60

ghatis make a day)

 

--------------------------

 

Reference to Nakschhatras is given in

 

Mantra No. # 633

 

|| Aaaptye Taa-ya-yo Yatha Nakschhtra Yntya-Yukti-Bhi-ahi, Suryaya

Vishwa Chakschhase ||

 

 

 

regards,

Utkal.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Your knowledge of VEDAS is praiseworthy and you are second to none.

 

But let me disprove your points as I am enjoying it, Pl counter my points, you

have not countered my points in which I challenged you.

 

I would be happy to win a WEAK CASE.

 

Don't categorize me in the TEAM of abusive ppl who have no knowledge but abused

you.

 

Anyway my SECOND CHALLENGE to you:-

 

1) Prove that Madhu Madhav(Seasonal Months) name took birth before of Chaitra

Vaisakha Jyestha Asadha(NKS sidereal months),

 

Show even a single verse from RIG VEDA of the Madhu Madhav.

So, it is clear that Sidereal calendar (Based on NKS) came first

 

2) 6 Ritus are mentioned in Rig-Veda and there were 4 cardinal points. Show me

even a single verse which give hint that how one have to place 6 points (6

Ritus) on the circle with 4 reference points( 4 Cardinal points).

 

So how you can say that Madhu Madhav are matching with what NKS months based on

Rig-Veda only.

 

How one will decide on the knowledge of Rig-Veda what seasonal months were in

Northern sphere. Please you try with paper pen and try to place 6 points on

circle which are having 4 points on a circle. Try and let us know your

findings….

 

So Vednga Jyotish is the manipulation of much later age and Rashis were of

second millennia BCE as I have shown the proofs from one Museum so both are of

same age, why one should go behind VJ's proposed calendar.

 

Regs,

Prashant Pandey

 

CC:- Koenraad Elst

 

 

, " jyotirved " <jyotirved wrote:

>

> Shri Utkal Panigrahiji,

>

> Jai Shri Ram!

>

> The following post was splashed in HinduCalendar forum several years back.

>

> This will give you and idea as to how and why the real Hindu calendar should

> be without the mess known as Mesha, Vrisha etc. Rashis----whether so called

> Sayana or so called nirayana, especially in view of the mantras from the

> Samaveda and their commentary by Acharya Sayana!

>

> Regards,

>

> AKK

>

> *** **** ****

> ***

>

> Shri Narayan Prasad ji,

>

> Namaste!

>

> I am indeed thankful to you for prodding me to make my thoughts about Vedic

> luni-solar months etc. articulate and cohesive. I, therefore, request you to

> please go through this post carefully so that we take some constructive

> steps in the right direction for streamlining our calendars at the earliest.

>

>

>

> The shlokas quoted by Diksit are from recent works:

>

> The two sholkas that you have quoted from " Bahratiya Jyotish Shastra " of S.

> B. Dikshit in support of Rashi based lunar months, are actually from " Kala

> Madhava " of thirteenth century and " Kala Tattva Vivechan " of sixteenth

> century AD. As such, both these works are quite recent ones and it is not

> surprising at all that they have advocated to calculate lunar months

> vis-à-vis astrological Rashis like Aries, Taurus etc.

>

>

>

> Vedic calendars were framed without astrological Rashis:

>

> However, the task we have at our hands is to streamline our calendars in

> accordance with the Vedic lore that should be applicable to whole of India

> and not as per Narada etc. Purana, that is based on the Surya Sidhanta of

> Maya the mlechha, or some so called Jyotisha shastra etc.

>

> Let us, therefore, see the relevant references for that purpose i.e., the

> real fundamentals of the calendar as it existed during the Vedic and

> post-Vedic period.

>

>

>

> 1. 4000 BCE: The earliest reference---at least of around 4000 BCE----we

> have to an intercalary month (adhika-masa) is in the Rigveda 1/25/8. An

> adhika-masa can take place only when lunar synodic months are calculated

> vis-à-vis solar sankrantis. Since in the Vedic period only Madhu, Madhava

> etc. solar months and not Aries etc. astrological rashis were in vogue, it

> means that even the earliest references to lunar months in the Vedas are

> without Mesha etc. Rashis but in relation to Madhu, Madhava etc. solar/lunar

> months.

> 2. 3000 BCE: Taittiriya Samhita 1/4/14 says: " Madhushcha madhavashcha

> shukrashcha shuchishcha nabhashcha nabhasyashcha ishashcha oorjashcha

> sahashcha sahasyashcha tapashcha tapasyashchai up yam griheeto asi samsarpo

> asi amhaspatyay tva "

>

> Here Madhu, Madhava etc. twelve months have been named and then samsarpa is

> the thirteenth (intercalary/adhika) month and amhaspati a decayed (kshyaya)

> month. THERE ARE NO RASHIS HERE AND LUNAR MONTHS, INCLUDING

> ADHIKA/KSHAYA-MASA, WERE RELATED TO MADHU, MADHAVA ETC. SOLAR MONTHS AND

> EVEN NAMED AS (LUNAR, APART FROM SOLAR) MADHU, MADHAVA ETC. WITHOUT ANY

> DOUBT.

>

> 3. Again the same Taitiriya Samhita 5/6/7 says " shadratrir deekshitah

> syat shadva ritavah samvatsarah…dwadasha ratreer deekshitah syat dwadasha

> masah samvatsarah… trayodasha ratreer deekshitah syat, trayodasha masah

> samvatsarah "

>

> i.e. " One should get consecrated for six days as the year comprises six

> seasons. One should get consecrated for 12 days as the year comprises 12

> months. One should get consecrated for 13 days as the year comprises 13

> months (including an adhika masa) " . There are no rashis involved here but

> the solar months Madhu, Madhava etc. are implied because of references to

> six seasons, and thereby the lunar months are related to those very solar

> months.

>

> 4. 3000 BCE: Vajasaneya Samhita 22/31 says:

>

> " Madhave svaha, madhavay svaha, shukray svaha shuchaye svaha, nabhase svaha,

> nabhasyaya svaha, ishay svaha, oorjay svaha, sahase svaha, sahasyay svaha,

> tapase svaha, tapasyaya svaha, amhaspataye svaha "

>

> Here all the twelve solar months of Madhu, Madhava etc. have been named

> consecutively and the thirteenth month has been named as amhaspati.

> Obviously, the thirteenth is an adhika lunar month. Thus as per this proof

> also, lunar months were known by the names of solar months of Madhu, Madhva

> etc. in early Vedic days!

>

> .

>

> 5. 3000 BCE and 100 BCE: In Shatapatha Brahmana 4/5/14 we find " Upayama

> griheeto asi Madhave tu etyeva advaryur-grihnati upyama griheeto asi

> madhavay tveti pratiprastha taitaveva vasantikav sayad vasante aushadhayo

> jayante vanaspatayah pachyante tena haitav madhushcha madhavshcha "

>

> Translation " Since in the Vasnata (spring season) grains in the fields start

> sprouting that is why the two months of that season are known as Madhu and

> Madhvava " .

>

> The commentary on this mantra by Shri Hari-Swamin says, " Madhu Madhavaviti

> chaitra vaishakhav ritu grahanam chaitradayo masah devatah. Chaitra

> vaishakhayor madhu madhava namdheya praptim darshayati. Etav uktav masav

> vasantikav "

>

> Translation " Madhu and Madhava are Chaitra and Vaishakha as they are the two

> months of Spring season. As such the shruti has shown the names of Chaitra

> and Vaishakha as Madhu and Madhava "

>

> Shri Hari-Swamin is said to be a scholar of around first century BCE. It

> means that the tradition of calling solar months Madhu, Madhava by lunar

> names like Caitra, Vaishakha etc. and vice-versa was prevailing then.

>

>

>

> 6. 1400 BCE: Acharya Lagadha's Vedanga Jyotisha says:

>

> " Svarakramete somarkav yada sakam savasavav, syat tadadi yugam maghastapah

> shuklo ayanam hyudak "

>

> As per Dikshit's translation, it means " When the sun and the moon while

> moving in the sky, come to Vasava (Dhanishtha i.e. Beta Delphini) star

> together, then the yuga, the Magha (month), the tapas (seasonal month), the

> light half of the month, and the Winter Solstice, all commence together " .

>

> 7. Sixth mantra of the same VJ says

>

> " Prapadyate shavishthadav surya chandramasav udak, sarpardhe dkshinarkastu,

> magha shravanayoh sada "

>

> Dikshit's translation: " The sun and the moon turn towards North in the

> beginning of Dhanishtha and towards South in the middle of Ashlesha. The

> sun always does this in the month of Magha and Shravana "

>

> THIS IS THE VERY FIRST INDIGENOUS ASTRONOMICAL WORK OF 14TH CENTURY BCE AND

> HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH SO CALLED ARIES ETC. RASHIS, WHETHER

> SAYANA OR NIRAYANA, BUT TELLS US THE METHODLOGY OF CALCULATING ALL THE

> TWELVE MONTHS, BOTH SOLAR AND LUNAR, LIKE TAPAH AND MAGHA, APART FROM WINTER

> SOLSTICE AND SUMMER SOLSTICE ETC. IF ACHARYA LAGADHA COULD DO IT IN EARLY

> 14TH CENTURY BCE, WITHOUT INVOLVING ANY ARIES ETC. ASTROLOGICAL RASHIS, WHY

> CAN'T WE DO IT TODAY?

>

> 8. 1400 BCE to 400 BCE: The Mahabharata contains quite a few " finishing

> touches " of a post Vedanga Jyotisha Era since it follows the VJ methodology

> for calculating adhika-masa etc. This " itihasa " could therefore be of a

> period of 1400 BCE to 400 BCE, since the latter was the period when

> Graecho-Chaldean rashis had started gaining a foothold in India. Mangal,

> Shani etc. planets, had, however been propagated in India prior to 400 BCE,

> as is evident from the Atharva Jyotisha of about 500 BCE. That is why there

> is no mention of Aries etc. astrological rashis in the MBh either but there

> are references to nakshatras times without number. We also find reference

> to Magha, Kaumudi etc. months at several places. In the Gita, which is a

> part of the MBh, Lord Krishna has identified Himself with Margasheersha.

>

> Besides, it is also common knowledge that Bhishma waited for Uttarayana to

> shed off his mortal coil but we do not find even by mistake anywhere in the

> entire MBh any mention of Makara Rashi/sankranti, which is supposed to be

> the synonym of Utarayana by " Sayana Vedic jyotishis " . Similarly, Bhishma is

> said to have shed off his mortal coil on Magha Shukla ashtami in Rohini

> nakshatra as per Shanti Parva 47/3 which reads as:

>

> " shuklapakshyasyashtamyam maghamasasya parthiva, prajapatye cha nakshatre

> madyam prapte divakare…. "

>

> Here Magha Shukla ashtami and Rohini nakshatra have been mentioned clearly

> without any reference to any Makara etc. rashi/sankranti. Same is the case

> with several other references in the MBh, which proves it beyond any doubt

> that Magha, Phalguna etc. solar/lunar months besides Uttarayana etc.

> phenomena were calculated during those days also without any " assistance

> from " Aries etc. astrological Rashis!

>

>

>

> 9. 875 AD: Vateshwara Sidhanta and Gola, a work of 9th century AD, says

> in Chapter 3, verse 29 " The months Chaitra, Vaishakha etc. are called,

> according to the Vedas, Madhu, Madhava, Shukra, Shuchih, Nabhas, Nabhasya,

> Isha, Urja, Sahas, Sahasya, Tapas and Tapasya respectively. The names of

> the seasons have come down to us since the time of the Vedas " .

>

> On page 423 of the same work (translated by K. S. Shukla, published by INSA,

> Delhi) there is a table listing Chaitra etc. 12 months vis-à-vis Madhu etc.

> Vedic months which have been clubbed with the respective seasons! IF

> VATESHWARA COULD CALCULATE SOLAR AND LUNAR MONTHS WITHOUT THE " ASSISTANCE

> OF " ARIES ETC. ASTROLOGICAL RASHIS, WHY CAN'T WE DO IT TODAY?

>

> 10. 1375 AD: A mantra in the Samaveda Samhita 4/6/4/2 reads:

>

> " Vasanto innur antyo greeshmo innur antyah varshani anu sharado hemanta

> shishir innurantyah "

>

> As per this mantra six seasons of Vasanta, Grishma etc. have been discussed.

> And this is how Acharya Sayana of 14th century AD has commented on it:

>

> " Vasantah innu – vasant eva chaitra vaishakharupi vasanta ritureva rantyah –

> ramaneeyah bhavati. Greeshma innu jyeshtha ashadarupo greeshm ritureva

> rantyah ramaneeyah. Varshani varsha shravan bhadrapad rupen avayavi bhuta

> pravrit ritur eva rantyah ramaneeyah. Tanyanu sharadah ashvina kartika

> rupena avayaveebhoot rituh rantyah ramaneeyah. Hemanta margasheersha pausha

> roop eve rantya ramneeyah shishir innu magha phalguna roop eva rantyah

> ramneeyah "

>

>

>

> A simple and running English translation of this commentary of Sayana is

> " Vasanta comprises two months of Chaitra and Vaishakha. Vasanta is a

> pleasant season. Greeshma comprises two months of Jyeshtha and Ashada. It

> is a pleasant season. Varsha comprises two limbs of Shravana and Bhadra.

> Varsha is a pleasant season. Ashvina and Kartika are the two months of

> Sharad ritu. Sharad ritu is a pleasant season. Margashersha and Pausha are

> the two months of Hemanta. Hemanta is a pleasant season. Magha and

> Phalguna are the two months of Shishira Ritu. Shishira Ritu is a pleasant

> season " .

>

>

>

> We have thus seen above that right from the earliest Veda i.e. the Rigveda

> (about 4000 BCE) till the end of the fourteenth century AD, there is an

> unbroken stream of clubbing Chaitra, Vaishakha etc. lunar months with the

> solar months of similar names and also Madhu and Madhava etc. solar months

> with the lunar months of similar names without any assistance from any Aries

> etc. astrological Rashis. Thus these very names serve the purpose of solar

> as well as lunar months. We have seen that Acharya Sayana also has subsumed

> Chaitra etc. months into Vasanta etc. seasons. It means that Chaitra etc.

> were the names of solar months even according to him. Since these are also

> the names of lunar months, obviously, lunar Chaitra would follow a solar

> Chaitra, lunar Vaishakha a solar Vaishakha and so on.

>

>

>

> Vedic months Madhu, Madhava are synonymns of Chaitra, Vaishakha etc.

>

> That completely accounts for the following pattern of the Vedic calendar, as

> summarized by Dr. A. K. Bag, in ( " History of Astronomy in India " , published

> by INSA, Delhi) in his article " Astronomy in Indus Civilization and during

> Vedic Times " . In fact, this is the summary given by him as per the

> Taittiriya Samhita 4/4/11

>

> a) Vasanta Ritu comprising two solar months of Madhu and Madhava which

> are also known as (solar) Chaitra and Vaishakha, with lunar Chaitra and

> Vaishakha following the solar months of similar names.

>

> b) Grishma Ritu comprising two solar months of Shukrah and Shuchih, also

> known as (solar) Jyeshtha and Ashada, with lunar Jyeshtha and Ashada

> following the respective solar months.

>

> c) Varsha Ritu comprising two solar months of Nabhas and Nabhasya also

> known as (solar) Shravana and Bhadra, with the lunar Shravana and Bhadra

> following the respective solar months.

>

> d) Sharad Ritu comprsing the two solar months of Isha and Urja, also

> known as (solar) months of Ashvina and Kartika, with lunar Ashvina and

> Kartika following their respective solar months.

>

> e) Hemanta Ritu comprising the two solar months of Sahas and Sahasya,

> also known as (solar) months of Margasheersha and Pausha, with lunar

> Margasheersha and Pausha following their respective solar names.

>

> f) Shishira Ritu comprising the two solar months of Tapas and Tapasya,

> also known as (solar) months of Magha and Phalguna, with lunar Magha and

> Phalguna following their respective solar months.

>

>

>

> THAT IS THUS THE REAL VEDIC CALENDAR, AS ADVOCATED BY THE VEDAS, BRAHMANAS,

> THE VEDANGA JYOTISHA, THE MAHABHARATA AND OUR ACHARYAS LIKE HARISWAMIN,

> VATESHWARA AND SAYANA.

>

>

>

> Early Vedic lunar months were not necessarily as per Chitra etc. nakshatra

> Full Moons:

>

> Regarding the names of lunar months as per the Full Moon nakshatra, this is

> the system being followed at present for Lahiri festivals. As we have seen

> above, if we want to adopt the real Vedic calendar, we do not have to run

> after a Full Moon conjoining a particular lunar nakshatra for the name of

> that lunar month.

>

>

>

> S. B. Dikshit has also clarified it at several places that the Full Moon

> conjoining the relevant nakshatra for the names of lunar months is a much

> later phenomenon. This is what he has said on page 30 of his work (English

> translation of Part I):

>

> " In short the terms Chaitra etc. were not in vogue in the Samhita and

> Brahmana period. Thus it can be proved from the historical point of view

> that these terms came into use after a very long period of time after the

> terms Madhu, etc. became current "

>

>

>

> But by the time of Vedanga Jyotisha (14th century BCE), Chaitra etc.

> nomenclature for solar as well as lunar months, without reference to either

> nakshatra based Purnimas or any Aries etc. astrological Rashis, had got

> fully established.

>

> A practical demonstration of this point is that the VJ says that

> Dakshinayana-cum-solar (Nabhasya)-cum-Shravana always starts when the New

> Moon (Amanta) falls in the middle of Ashlesha and

> Uttarayana-cum-Tapah-cum-Magha always starts when the New Moon is in

> Dhanishtha. Neither of these two conditions gets always fulfilled either

> for Dakshinayana or Uttarayana whether we take Lahiri nakshata division or

> the so called sayana nakshatra division, the simple reason being that

> according to the VJ, the nakshatras start from Krittika instead of from

> Ashvini, and the year started from Uttarayana!

>

>

>

> THAT IS WHY WE HAVE TO DO A RE-THNK ABOUT THE NAKSHATRA DIVISION AS TO

> WHETHER IT SHOULD START FROM ASHVINI OR KRITTIKA AND WHETHER IT SHOULD BE AN

> EQUAL DIVISION OF 27 NAKSHATRAS OR AN UNEQUAL DIVISION OF 28 NAKSHATRAS AS

> SUGGESTED BY BHASKARA-I AND OTHER EALIER ACHARYAS. THAT IS APART FROM THE

> FACT AS TO WHETHERE THE NAKHATRAS SHOULD BE SO CALLED SAYANA OR SO CALLED

> NIRAYANA!

>

> (Pl. se my post " When was the real Onam " ).

>

>

>

> " Sayana Vedic astrology " falls on its face by dint of the " crutches " of

> Sayana nakshatras!

>

> WHILE TALKING ABOUT NAKSHATRAS, I MUST PUT ON RECORD THAT THE GREATEST

> DRAW-BACK WITH NAKSHATRAS VIS-À-VIS THE SO CALLED SAYANA RASHIS IS THAT ALL

> THE PROMINENT STARS, KNOWN AS " MILE POSTS " , ARE AWAY BY AT LEAST TWENTY

> DEGREES FROM THE RELEVANT NAKSHATRA! E.g. The Star Ashvini (Beta Arietis)

> had an ecliptic longitude of about 34 degrees as on January 1, 2000 whereas

> the nakshatra division of that (Ashvini) name of the so called Sayana

> Rashichakra would range from 0 to 13-20' i.e. the Ashvini Star is out of the

> range by at least 20 degrees from the outermost limit of the nakshatra

> division of that very name. Equally, Bharni Star (41 Arietis) had a

> longitude of 48 degrees in 2000 AD whereas that division ranges from 13-20

> to 26-40. Thus Bharni star is out of range by at least 21 degrees from the

> outermost limit of that very Bharani nakshatra division. Same is the case

> with all the other nakshatras!

>

>

>

> THOSE " JYOTISHIS " CLAMOURING FOR A SO CALLED SAYANA RASHICHKARA FOR

> PREDICTIVE GIMMICKS DO NOT SEE THE IRONY THAT THEY WILL NOT BE ABLE TO

> CALCULATE ANY OF THE DASHA-BHUKTIS CORRECTLY SINCE NO NAKSHATRA WILL FALL IN

> THE RELEVANT DIVISION NOR WILL THE RELEVANT STAR HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH

> THE NAME-SAKE OF THAT VERY NAKSHATRA DIVISION!

>

> BUT THEN " SAYANA VEDIC JYOTSHIS " ARE HARDLY BETTER THAN " NIRAYANA VEDIC

> JYOTISHIS " SINCE BOTH ARE BLIND TO THE WRITING ON THE WALL!

>

>

>

> " First Point of Aries " in the Kritika nakshatra

>

> How useless the so called Sayana rashis are vis-à-vis the actual Vedic

> nakshatras will be clear from the following example:

>

> Shatapatha Brahmana 2/1/2/2 says " Krittikasu agnim adadheeta…eta ha vai

> prachyai disho na chyavante… " . It means, " One should get consecrated in

> Krittika nakshatra. They do not deviate from the East " . Krittikas did not

> " deviate from the East " since the " First Point of Aries " was in that

> nakshatra then i.e. about 3000 BCE. This nakshatra division ranges from

> 26-10' to 40-00 degrees. However, the longitude of the Krittika star (Eta

> Tauri a.k.a. Alcyone) as on January 1, 2000 AD was about 60 degrees. Thus

> we will only be making a laughing stock of ourselves if we try to link the

> so called sayana rashichakra to krittika nakshatra since it is away by about

> 20 degrees from the extreme limit of that very nakshatra division!

> Therefore it could hardly be such a non-existent krittika nakshatra which

> our Vedic Rishis were talking about!

>

>

>

> Nakshatras in the Mahabharata:

>

> In the Shalya Parva 5/6, we find the following reference

>

> " Chatvarimshad ahanyadya dve me nissritasya vai, pushyena samprayatoasmi,

> shravane punaragatah "

>

> Translation " I (Balarama) have been away for forty-two days. I left this

> place on Pushya nakshatra and am back in Shravna nakshatra "

>

> Obviously, these could not be imaginary so called sayana nakshatras but the

> actual nakshatras or prominent stars of those names, with which the moon had

> been conjunct during the period of forty-two days when Balarama was away.

> Pushya to Punarvasu means 27 nakshatras/days (excluding Abhijit) and then

> again Pushya to Shravana means 15 days. Thus it becomes 42 days (if we

> include both Pushya the day of departure and Shravana the day of coming

> back) but if we include Abhijit also, it will be 28 days from Pushya to

> Punarvasu and then 14 days from Pushya to Utarashadha – excluding Shravana.

> But since in the VJ, there are only 27 nakshatras, it appears the MBH also

> has been calculating the lunar nakshatra days in multiples of 27 only.

> Besides, Abhijita is a nakshatra of very short duration -- hardly a few

> degrees, thus the lunar conjunction with that nakshatra could not be that

> long to be taken as one day. It could have been subsumed in other

> nakshatras.

>

> In any case, it goes to prove that instead of artificial nakshatra divisions

> of the so called " Sayana Vedic Jyotishis " the MBh also was taking into

> account the actual nakshatras.

>

>

>

> Duplicate Chaitra etc. names

>

> Coming to your next point,

>

> <If at all duplicate nomenclature is to be used for the solar months, let it

> be on the name of Rashis, as used in South India.>

>

>

>

> We have just seen in the commentary of Acharya Sayana as to how he clubbed

> Chaitra etc. solar and lunar months with Vasanta etc. seasons.

>

>

>

> Acharya Sayana was a minister of Viajayanagar empire of South India

> besides being the younger brother of Madhvacharya a.k.a. Vidyaranya Muni of

> the " Panchadashi " fame. Acharya Sayana was a scholar of extraordinary

> calibre and I have not seen yet any commentator of his stature who has

> explained all the four Vedas in such an exhaustive and lucid manner. There

> is hardly any scholar, whether from East or West, who does not acknowledge

> the authority of Sayana about the Vedic interpretations. Aries etc. Rashis

> were very much prevalent at Acharya Sayana's time in India – 14th century

> AD--since the Surya Sidhanta by Maya the mlechha had got entrenched in our

> cultural ethos by then completely. THE MILLION DOLLAR QUESTION THAT ARISES

> HERE IS AS TO WHY DID ACHARYA SAYANA SPURN THE SO CALLED MESHA ETC. RASHIS

> AND TALK ABOUT CHAITRA, VIAISHAKHA ETC. MONTHS VIS-À-VIS VEDIC SEASONS?

>

> Obviously, these Aries etc. signs being a creation of astrologers, did not

> suit him (Acharya Sayana) at all, and he just ignored them with the disdain

> and contempt these astrological rashis deserve. SCHOLARS THROUGHOUT INDIA

> SHOULD EMULATE ACHARYA SAYANA IN THIS RESPECT i.e. they must spurn rashi

> based calendar! But on the other hand, for the last about a hundred years,

> maximum support of these good for nothing astrological rashis is being

> provided/mustered by " Vedic astrologers " through their astrological

> magazines and " Vedic jyotisha " monthlies and so on and so forth! These

> " scholars " also preside over several " panchanga standardization committees "

> and are always back at square one by opting for the same " almighty " Lahiri

> Rashichakra that was being already used sine 1950, thanks to N. C. Lahiri's

> jugglery!

>

> Thus these " Vedic scholars/astrologers " are decimating those very Vedas that

> they pretend to defend and they are doing so just for the sake of sinful

> crumbs which they earn by dint of " Vedic astrology " ---i.e. " correct

> predictions from incorrect data " !

>

>

>

> I, therefore, do not see any valid reason against naming Madhu, Madhava etc.

> Vedic months as solar Chaitra and Vaishakha etc. as was done by every Seer

> from Lagadha of the VJ to Acharya Syana of Samaveda Bhashya. These very

> names can be used for lunar months.

>

>

>

> Even alternative names of solar momths can be without astrological rashis:

>

> If, however, you are still of the opinion that the use of Chaitra etc. names

> for solar as well as lunar months will create some confusion, we can think

> over the thirteen names of solar/lunar months as given in Taittiriya

> Brahmana 3/10/1. These are:

>

> 1) Arunah; 2)Arunarajah; 3) Pundareekah; 4) Vishvajit; 5) Abhijit; 6) Ardrah

> 7) Pinvaman; 8) Unnavan; 9) Rasavan; 10) Iravan; 11) Sarvaushadhah; 12)

> Sambharah; 13) Mahaswan

>

>

>

> (Please see page 27 of Dikshit's " Bharatiya Jyotisha " --English

> translation—Vol. I)

>

>

>

> This will obviate the necessity of duplicating Chaitra etc. names for solar

> as well lunar months without our having to fall back upon Aries etc.

> astrological rashis.

>

>

>

> Amanta and Purnimanta systems -- both can and should continue:

>

> Regarding your earlier suggestion that there should be one pattern of lunar

> months throughout India i.e. they should be either Amanta (New Moon to New

> Moon) or Purnimanta (Full Moon to Full Moon), I am of the opinion that we

> must continue with both the systems since both of them are Vedic, as

> explained by me in one of my earlier posts to you about the same. I do not

> want to make any changes in any pattern arbitrarily unless and until they

> are warranted by the Vedas and are unavoidable. We are almost divided in

> the middle --- half of India celebrating Amanta and half Purnimanta – and

> it will create further confusion when we change the system from Makara to

> Tapah and then ask Northern India to make Krishna Paksha follow Shukla

> paksha or South and Central India etc. etc. to put Krishna Paksha before

> Shukla Paksha. It will take them a considerable time to get to grips with

> that double confusion, without any advantage or plus points. It is also not

> necessary that they will agree with this suggestion of ours, since it is not

> an easy job to change the settled pattern

>

>

>

> Sayana versus Nirayana is the worst conflict:

>

> Thus, in any case, once we shun Aries etc. Rashis completely for the real

> Vedic Calendar, we shall then not have to enter into an endless discussion

> and conflict with either " Vedic " or " anti-Vedic " or " non-Vedic " jyotishis,

> since we will not be using rashis at all for Vedic calendar, which means

> there will be no confusion whether the rashis are sayana or nirayana. Let

> the jyotishis continue to wallow in the mud of those sayana and Lahiri and

> Ramana and Fagan Rashis and give a full demonstration of their charlatanism

> but at least our " Vedic calendar " will steer clear of the same since we will

> not refer to Aries etc. astrological Rashsi as our Vedic Rishis never

> referred to them, at least in respect of deciding the calendar.

>

> AND THAT IS NO MEAN ACHIEVEMENT.

>

> Sayana versus Nirayana was the main reason of the failure of " Calendar

> Reform "

>

> Before closing this note, I must put on record my views as to why the

> earlier efforts of streamlining the calendar failed:

>

> As we know through " Bharatiya Jyotisha Shastra " of Dikshit and other works,

> real scholars of Vedic lore were feeling highly perturbed with the

> anachronism of celebrating Uttarayana etc. phenomena after at least a

> fortnight or so of the actual phenomenon over the last about couple of

> hundred years. They also tried to put it back on rails and quite a few

> seminars were held; quite a few " calendar reform committees " established,

> but it had just become a zero sums game! Almost every " Committee " had

> recommended the so called Sayana Rashis for celebrating festivals etc. but

> the efforts were never successful in spite of even the Jagadguru

> Shankarachrya of Dwarka, on a representation by V. R. Lele, issuing an

> Adesha-Patra more than a 100 years back (in Shaka 1814)that only (so called)

> Sayana rashis must be used for deciding fairs and festivals (Pl. see

> " Bharatiya Jyotish Shastra " ). But now the same Dwarka Peetha, including the

> current Jagadguru Shankaracharya of that Peetha, is celebrating all its

> festivals and muhurtas not as per the Vedas or other shastras, but as

> " dictated " by " almighty " Lahiri! WHY? Only because all these " reformists "

> were talking of (so called) Sayana rashis, which is an anathema to " Vedic

> Jyotishis " ! They just do not want to lose their sinful crumbs, however hard

> we may try to instil God's fear into them! Money for them is more powerful

> and intoxicating than Jeevan Mukti!

>

> THEREFORE, IT IS BETTER TO SHELVE THE RASHIS COMPLETELY -- WHETEHR THE SO

> CALLED SAYANA OR THE SO CALLED NIRAYANA – FOR THE PURPOSE OF STREAMLINING

> OUR CALENDAR! LET US PREPARE A " TITHI-PATRAK' WHICH DOES NOT CARRY THE

> NAMES OF ANY RASHIS, SO THAT WE CELEBRATE OUR FESTIVALS ON CORRECT DAYS AND

> LET THE " SAYANA VEDIC ASTROLOGERS " AS WELL AS THE " NIRAYANA VEDIC

> ASTROLOGERS " CONTINUE TO " MAKE CORRECT PREDEICTIONS FROM INCORRECT DATA " .

>

> We must, therefore, select the seasonal year with Madhu, Madhava etc. months

> with Aruna et. synonyms and Vasanta etc. seasons plus Chaitra, Vaishakha

> etc. solar/lunar months coupled with Krittika etc. actual 28 nakshatras

> (including Abhijit) instead of the so called sayana or nirayana nakshatra

> division of 27 equal nakshatras.

>

> With regards,

>

> Avtar Krishen Kaul

>

>

>

> , " utkal.panigrahi " <utkal.panigrahi@>

> wrote:

>

> >

>

>

>

> Re: Festivals - Nakshathra and Rashi - Samveda Mantra !!

>

>

>

>

> I m happy to post Samveda Mantra as I m a Samvediya Kauthumiya Brahmin,

> the day I came to know about my lineage, I started efforts for studying

> Samveda.

>

> --------------------------

>

> Mantra No # 222

>

> || Idam Vishnu-Rvi Chaktrame Tri-dha Ni Dadhe Padam, Samooddh Masya

> Paa-Ansule ||

>

> The mantra recounts God Vishnu has measured the world in 3 steps.

>

> Earlier, I found a similar shloka in Rik Veda also, but, don't remember

> exactly in what mandal it was there.

>

> --------------------------

>

> Mantra No. # 616 (Note : it clearly mentions 6 Ritu (seasons)

> happening in the land of Vedas.

>

> || Vasant Innu Rantiyo Greeshma Innu Rantiyah, Varsha Innu Sharado

> Hemantah Shishir Innu Rantiyah !!

>

> Note : I saw you people were trying to find out reference to 6 seasons

> in one of the postings, what was the context, I dont remember, but, pls

> be informed that Samveda Rishis were knowing 6 Ritu or Seasons.

>

> --------------------------

>

>

> Mantra No. # 632 ( measurement of day)

>

>

> || Trinsh-a-Ddhvam Vi Rajati Vakpat-Angaya Dhiyate, Prati Vastorah

> Dyu-Bhiha ||

>

> Mnatra says that Sun lights up for 30 ghatis ( i.e. half a day, 60

> ghatis make a day)

>

> --------------------------

>

> Reference to Nakschhatras is given in

>

> Mantra No. # 633

>

> || Aaaptye Taa-ya-yo Yatha Nakschhtra Yntya-Yukti-Bhi-ahi, Suryaya

> Vishwa Chakschhase ||

>

>

>

> regards,

> Utkal.

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

No worries, I will definitely revert after study of Sayan's commentary, however

the point of debate is Veda itself not commentary.

 

 

regards,

Utkal

 

, " prashant " <praspandey wrote:

>

> Your knowledge of VEDAS is praiseworthy and you are second to none.

>

> But let me disprove your points as I am enjoying it, Pl counter my points, you

have not countered my points in which I challenged you.

>

> I would be happy to win a WEAK CASE.

>

> Don't categorize me in the TEAM of abusive ppl who have no knowledge but

abused you.

>

> Anyway my SECOND CHALLENGE to you:-

>

> 1) Prove that Madhu Madhav(Seasonal Months) name took birth before of Chaitra

Vaisakha Jyestha Asadha(NKS sidereal months),

>

> Show even a single verse from RIG VEDA of the Madhu Madhav.

> So, it is clear that Sidereal calendar (Based on NKS) came first

>

> 2) 6 Ritus are mentioned in Rig-Veda and there were 4 cardinal points. Show me

even a single verse which give hint that how one have to place 6 points (6

Ritus) on the circle with 4 reference points( 4 Cardinal points).

>

> So how you can say that Madhu Madhav are matching with what NKS months based

on Rig-Veda only.

>

> How one will decide on the knowledge of Rig-Veda what seasonal months were in

Northern sphere. Please you try with paper pen and try to place 6 points on

circle which are having 4 points on a circle. Try and let us know your

findings….

>

> So Vednga Jyotish is the manipulation of much later age and Rashis were of

second millennia BCE as I have shown the proofs from one Museum so both are of

same age, why one should go behind VJ's proposed calendar.

>

> Regs,

> Prashant Pandey

>

> CC:- Koenraad Elst

>

>

> , " jyotirved " <jyotirved@> wrote:

> >

> > Shri Utkal Panigrahiji,

> >

> > Jai Shri Ram!

> >

> > The following post was splashed in HinduCalendar forum several years back.

> >

> > This will give you and idea as to how and why the real Hindu calendar should

> > be without the mess known as Mesha, Vrisha etc. Rashis----whether so called

> > Sayana or so called nirayana, especially in view of the mantras from the

> > Samaveda and their commentary by Acharya Sayana!

> >

> > Regards,

> >

> > AKK

> >

> > *** **** ****

> > ***

> >

> > Shri Narayan Prasad ji,

> >

> > Namaste!

> >

> > I am indeed thankful to you for prodding me to make my thoughts about Vedic

> > luni-solar months etc. articulate and cohesive. I, therefore, request you to

> > please go through this post carefully so that we take some constructive

> > steps in the right direction for streamlining our calendars at the earliest.

> >

> >

> >

> > The shlokas quoted by Diksit are from recent works:

> >

> > The two sholkas that you have quoted from " Bahratiya Jyotish Shastra " of S.

> > B. Dikshit in support of Rashi based lunar months, are actually from " Kala

> > Madhava " of thirteenth century and " Kala Tattva Vivechan " of sixteenth

> > century AD. As such, both these works are quite recent ones and it is not

> > surprising at all that they have advocated to calculate lunar months

> > vis-à-vis astrological Rashis like Aries, Taurus etc.

> >

> >

> >

> > Vedic calendars were framed without astrological Rashis:

> >

> > However, the task we have at our hands is to streamline our calendars in

> > accordance with the Vedic lore that should be applicable to whole of India

> > and not as per Narada etc. Purana, that is based on the Surya Sidhanta of

> > Maya the mlechha, or some so called Jyotisha shastra etc.

> >

> > Let us, therefore, see the relevant references for that purpose i.e., the

> > real fundamentals of the calendar as it existed during the Vedic and

> > post-Vedic period.

> >

> >

> >

> > 1. 4000 BCE: The earliest reference---at least of around 4000 BCE----we

> > have to an intercalary month (adhika-masa) is in the Rigveda 1/25/8. An

> > adhika-masa can take place only when lunar synodic months are calculated

> > vis-à-vis solar sankrantis. Since in the Vedic period only Madhu, Madhava

> > etc. solar months and not Aries etc. astrological rashis were in vogue, it

> > means that even the earliest references to lunar months in the Vedas are

> > without Mesha etc. Rashis but in relation to Madhu, Madhava etc. solar/lunar

> > months.

> > 2. 3000 BCE: Taittiriya Samhita 1/4/14 says: " Madhushcha madhavashcha

> > shukrashcha shuchishcha nabhashcha nabhasyashcha ishashcha oorjashcha

> > sahashcha sahasyashcha tapashcha tapasyashchai up yam griheeto asi samsarpo

> > asi amhaspatyay tva "

> >

> > Here Madhu, Madhava etc. twelve months have been named and then samsarpa is

> > the thirteenth (intercalary/adhika) month and amhaspati a decayed (kshyaya)

> > month. THERE ARE NO RASHIS HERE AND LUNAR MONTHS, INCLUDING

> > ADHIKA/KSHAYA-MASA, WERE RELATED TO MADHU, MADHAVA ETC. SOLAR MONTHS AND

> > EVEN NAMED AS (LUNAR, APART FROM SOLAR) MADHU, MADHAVA ETC. WITHOUT ANY

> > DOUBT.

> >

> > 3. Again the same Taitiriya Samhita 5/6/7 says " shadratrir deekshitah

> > syat shadva ritavah samvatsarah…dwadasha ratreer deekshitah syat dwadasha

> > masah samvatsarah… trayodasha ratreer deekshitah syat, trayodasha masah

> > samvatsarah "

> >

> > i.e. " One should get consecrated for six days as the year comprises six

> > seasons. One should get consecrated for 12 days as the year comprises 12

> > months. One should get consecrated for 13 days as the year comprises 13

> > months (including an adhika masa) " . There are no rashis involved here but

> > the solar months Madhu, Madhava etc. are implied because of references to

> > six seasons, and thereby the lunar months are related to those very solar

> > months.

> >

> > 4. 3000 BCE: Vajasaneya Samhita 22/31 says:

> >

> > " Madhave svaha, madhavay svaha, shukray svaha shuchaye svaha, nabhase svaha,

> > nabhasyaya svaha, ishay svaha, oorjay svaha, sahase svaha, sahasyay svaha,

> > tapase svaha, tapasyaya svaha, amhaspataye svaha "

> >

> > Here all the twelve solar months of Madhu, Madhava etc. have been named

> > consecutively and the thirteenth month has been named as amhaspati.

> > Obviously, the thirteenth is an adhika lunar month. Thus as per this proof

> > also, lunar months were known by the names of solar months of Madhu, Madhva

> > etc. in early Vedic days!

> >

> > .

> >

> > 5. 3000 BCE and 100 BCE: In Shatapatha Brahmana 4/5/14 we find " Upayama

> > griheeto asi Madhave tu etyeva advaryur-grihnati upyama griheeto asi

> > madhavay tveti pratiprastha taitaveva vasantikav sayad vasante aushadhayo

> > jayante vanaspatayah pachyante tena haitav madhushcha madhavshcha "

> >

> > Translation " Since in the Vasnata (spring season) grains in the fields start

> > sprouting that is why the two months of that season are known as Madhu and

> > Madhvava " .

> >

> > The commentary on this mantra by Shri Hari-Swamin says, " Madhu Madhavaviti

> > chaitra vaishakhav ritu grahanam chaitradayo masah devatah. Chaitra

> > vaishakhayor madhu madhava namdheya praptim darshayati. Etav uktav masav

> > vasantikav "

> >

> > Translation " Madhu and Madhava are Chaitra and Vaishakha as they are the two

> > months of Spring season. As such the shruti has shown the names of Chaitra

> > and Vaishakha as Madhu and Madhava "

> >

> > Shri Hari-Swamin is said to be a scholar of around first century BCE. It

> > means that the tradition of calling solar months Madhu, Madhava by lunar

> > names like Caitra, Vaishakha etc. and vice-versa was prevailing then.

> >

> >

> >

> > 6. 1400 BCE: Acharya Lagadha's Vedanga Jyotisha says:

> >

> > " Svarakramete somarkav yada sakam savasavav, syat tadadi yugam maghastapah

> > shuklo ayanam hyudak "

> >

> > As per Dikshit's translation, it means " When the sun and the moon while

> > moving in the sky, come to Vasava (Dhanishtha i.e. Beta Delphini) star

> > together, then the yuga, the Magha (month), the tapas (seasonal month), the

> > light half of the month, and the Winter Solstice, all commence together " .

> >

> > 7. Sixth mantra of the same VJ says

> >

> > " Prapadyate shavishthadav surya chandramasav udak, sarpardhe dkshinarkastu,

> > magha shravanayoh sada "

> >

> > Dikshit's translation: " The sun and the moon turn towards North in the

> > beginning of Dhanishtha and towards South in the middle of Ashlesha. The

> > sun always does this in the month of Magha and Shravana "

> >

> > THIS IS THE VERY FIRST INDIGENOUS ASTRONOMICAL WORK OF 14TH CENTURY BCE AND

> > HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH SO CALLED ARIES ETC. RASHIS, WHETHER

> > SAYANA OR NIRAYANA, BUT TELLS US THE METHODLOGY OF CALCULATING ALL THE

> > TWELVE MONTHS, BOTH SOLAR AND LUNAR, LIKE TAPAH AND MAGHA, APART FROM WINTER

> > SOLSTICE AND SUMMER SOLSTICE ETC. IF ACHARYA LAGADHA COULD DO IT IN EARLY

> > 14TH CENTURY BCE, WITHOUT INVOLVING ANY ARIES ETC. ASTROLOGICAL RASHIS, WHY

> > CAN'T WE DO IT TODAY?

> >

> > 8. 1400 BCE to 400 BCE: The Mahabharata contains quite a few " finishing

> > touches " of a post Vedanga Jyotisha Era since it follows the VJ methodology

> > for calculating adhika-masa etc. This " itihasa " could therefore be of a

> > period of 1400 BCE to 400 BCE, since the latter was the period when

> > Graecho-Chaldean rashis had started gaining a foothold in India. Mangal,

> > Shani etc. planets, had, however been propagated in India prior to 400 BCE,

> > as is evident from the Atharva Jyotisha of about 500 BCE. That is why there

> > is no mention of Aries etc. astrological rashis in the MBh either but there

> > are references to nakshatras times without number. We also find reference

> > to Magha, Kaumudi etc. months at several places. In the Gita, which is a

> > part of the MBh, Lord Krishna has identified Himself with Margasheersha.

> >

> > Besides, it is also common knowledge that Bhishma waited for Uttarayana to

> > shed off his mortal coil but we do not find even by mistake anywhere in the

> > entire MBh any mention of Makara Rashi/sankranti, which is supposed to be

> > the synonym of Utarayana by " Sayana Vedic jyotishis " . Similarly, Bhishma is

> > said to have shed off his mortal coil on Magha Shukla ashtami in Rohini

> > nakshatra as per Shanti Parva 47/3 which reads as:

> >

> > " shuklapakshyasyashtamyam maghamasasya parthiva, prajapatye cha nakshatre

> > madyam prapte divakare…. "

> >

> > Here Magha Shukla ashtami and Rohini nakshatra have been mentioned clearly

> > without any reference to any Makara etc. rashi/sankranti. Same is the case

> > with several other references in the MBh, which proves it beyond any doubt

> > that Magha, Phalguna etc. solar/lunar months besides Uttarayana etc.

> > phenomena were calculated during those days also without any " assistance

> > from " Aries etc. astrological Rashis!

> >

> >

> >

> > 9. 875 AD: Vateshwara Sidhanta and Gola, a work of 9th century AD, says

> > in Chapter 3, verse 29 " The months Chaitra, Vaishakha etc. are called,

> > according to the Vedas, Madhu, Madhava, Shukra, Shuchih, Nabhas, Nabhasya,

> > Isha, Urja, Sahas, Sahasya, Tapas and Tapasya respectively. The names of

> > the seasons have come down to us since the time of the Vedas " .

> >

> > On page 423 of the same work (translated by K. S. Shukla, published by INSA,

> > Delhi) there is a table listing Chaitra etc. 12 months vis-à-vis Madhu etc.

> > Vedic months which have been clubbed with the respective seasons! IF

> > VATESHWARA COULD CALCULATE SOLAR AND LUNAR MONTHS WITHOUT THE " ASSISTANCE

> > OF " ARIES ETC. ASTROLOGICAL RASHIS, WHY CAN'T WE DO IT TODAY?

> >

> > 10. 1375 AD: A mantra in the Samaveda Samhita 4/6/4/2 reads:

> >

> > " Vasanto innur antyo greeshmo innur antyah varshani anu sharado hemanta

> > shishir innurantyah "

> >

> > As per this mantra six seasons of Vasanta, Grishma etc. have been discussed.

> > And this is how Acharya Sayana of 14th century AD has commented on it:

> >

> > " Vasantah innu – vasant eva chaitra vaishakharupi vasanta ritureva rantyah –

> > ramaneeyah bhavati. Greeshma innu jyeshtha ashadarupo greeshm ritureva

> > rantyah ramaneeyah. Varshani varsha shravan bhadrapad rupen avayavi bhuta

> > pravrit ritur eva rantyah ramaneeyah. Tanyanu sharadah ashvina kartika

> > rupena avayaveebhoot rituh rantyah ramaneeyah. Hemanta margasheersha pausha

> > roop eve rantya ramneeyah shishir innu magha phalguna roop eva rantyah

> > ramneeyah "

> >

> >

> >

> > A simple and running English translation of this commentary of Sayana is

> > " Vasanta comprises two months of Chaitra and Vaishakha. Vasanta is a

> > pleasant season. Greeshma comprises two months of Jyeshtha and Ashada. It

> > is a pleasant season. Varsha comprises two limbs of Shravana and Bhadra.

> > Varsha is a pleasant season. Ashvina and Kartika are the two months of

> > Sharad ritu. Sharad ritu is a pleasant season. Margashersha and Pausha are

> > the two months of Hemanta. Hemanta is a pleasant season. Magha and

> > Phalguna are the two months of Shishira Ritu. Shishira Ritu is a pleasant

> > season " .

> >

> >

> >

> > We have thus seen above that right from the earliest Veda i.e. the Rigveda

> > (about 4000 BCE) till the end of the fourteenth century AD, there is an

> > unbroken stream of clubbing Chaitra, Vaishakha etc. lunar months with the

> > solar months of similar names and also Madhu and Madhava etc. solar months

> > with the lunar months of similar names without any assistance from any Aries

> > etc. astrological Rashis. Thus these very names serve the purpose of solar

> > as well as lunar months. We have seen that Acharya Sayana also has subsumed

> > Chaitra etc. months into Vasanta etc. seasons. It means that Chaitra etc.

> > were the names of solar months even according to him. Since these are also

> > the names of lunar months, obviously, lunar Chaitra would follow a solar

> > Chaitra, lunar Vaishakha a solar Vaishakha and so on.

> >

> >

> >

> > Vedic months Madhu, Madhava are synonymns of Chaitra, Vaishakha etc.

> >

> > That completely accounts for the following pattern of the Vedic calendar, as

> > summarized by Dr. A. K. Bag, in ( " History of Astronomy in India " , published

> > by INSA, Delhi) in his article " Astronomy in Indus Civilization and during

> > Vedic Times " . In fact, this is the summary given by him as per the

> > Taittiriya Samhita 4/4/11

> >

> > a) Vasanta Ritu comprising two solar months of Madhu and Madhava which

> > are also known as (solar) Chaitra and Vaishakha, with lunar Chaitra and

> > Vaishakha following the solar months of similar names.

> >

> > b) Grishma Ritu comprising two solar months of Shukrah and Shuchih, also

> > known as (solar) Jyeshtha and Ashada, with lunar Jyeshtha and Ashada

> > following the respective solar months.

> >

> > c) Varsha Ritu comprising two solar months of Nabhas and Nabhasya also

> > known as (solar) Shravana and Bhadra, with the lunar Shravana and Bhadra

> > following the respective solar months.

> >

> > d) Sharad Ritu comprsing the two solar months of Isha and Urja, also

> > known as (solar) months of Ashvina and Kartika, with lunar Ashvina and

> > Kartika following their respective solar months.

> >

> > e) Hemanta Ritu comprising the two solar months of Sahas and Sahasya,

> > also known as (solar) months of Margasheersha and Pausha, with lunar

> > Margasheersha and Pausha following their respective solar names.

> >

> > f) Shishira Ritu comprising the two solar months of Tapas and Tapasya,

> > also known as (solar) months of Magha and Phalguna, with lunar Magha and

> > Phalguna following their respective solar months.

> >

> >

> >

> > THAT IS THUS THE REAL VEDIC CALENDAR, AS ADVOCATED BY THE VEDAS, BRAHMANAS,

> > THE VEDANGA JYOTISHA, THE MAHABHARATA AND OUR ACHARYAS LIKE HARISWAMIN,

> > VATESHWARA AND SAYANA.

> >

> >

> >

> > Early Vedic lunar months were not necessarily as per Chitra etc. nakshatra

> > Full Moons:

> >

> > Regarding the names of lunar months as per the Full Moon nakshatra, this is

> > the system being followed at present for Lahiri festivals. As we have seen

> > above, if we want to adopt the real Vedic calendar, we do not have to run

> > after a Full Moon conjoining a particular lunar nakshatra for the name of

> > that lunar month.

> >

> >

> >

> > S. B. Dikshit has also clarified it at several places that the Full Moon

> > conjoining the relevant nakshatra for the names of lunar months is a much

> > later phenomenon. This is what he has said on page 30 of his work (English

> > translation of Part I):

> >

> > " In short the terms Chaitra etc. were not in vogue in the Samhita and

> > Brahmana period. Thus it can be proved from the historical point of view

> > that these terms came into use after a very long period of time after the

> > terms Madhu, etc. became current "

> >

> >

> >

> > But by the time of Vedanga Jyotisha (14th century BCE), Chaitra etc.

> > nomenclature for solar as well as lunar months, without reference to either

> > nakshatra based Purnimas or any Aries etc. astrological Rashis, had got

> > fully established.

> >

> > A practical demonstration of this point is that the VJ says that

> > Dakshinayana-cum-solar (Nabhasya)-cum-Shravana always starts when the New

> > Moon (Amanta) falls in the middle of Ashlesha and

> > Uttarayana-cum-Tapah-cum-Magha always starts when the New Moon is in

> > Dhanishtha. Neither of these two conditions gets always fulfilled either

> > for Dakshinayana or Uttarayana whether we take Lahiri nakshata division or

> > the so called sayana nakshatra division, the simple reason being that

> > according to the VJ, the nakshatras start from Krittika instead of from

> > Ashvini, and the year started from Uttarayana!

> >

> >

> >

> > THAT IS WHY WE HAVE TO DO A RE-THNK ABOUT THE NAKSHATRA DIVISION AS TO

> > WHETHER IT SHOULD START FROM ASHVINI OR KRITTIKA AND WHETHER IT SHOULD BE AN

> > EQUAL DIVISION OF 27 NAKSHATRAS OR AN UNEQUAL DIVISION OF 28 NAKSHATRAS AS

> > SUGGESTED BY BHASKARA-I AND OTHER EALIER ACHARYAS. THAT IS APART FROM THE

> > FACT AS TO WHETHERE THE NAKHATRAS SHOULD BE SO CALLED SAYANA OR SO CALLED

> > NIRAYANA!

> >

> > (Pl. se my post " When was the real Onam " ).

> >

> >

> >

> > " Sayana Vedic astrology " falls on its face by dint of the " crutches " of

> > Sayana nakshatras!

> >

> > WHILE TALKING ABOUT NAKSHATRAS, I MUST PUT ON RECORD THAT THE GREATEST

> > DRAW-BACK WITH NAKSHATRAS VIS-À-VIS THE SO CALLED SAYANA RASHIS IS THAT ALL

> > THE PROMINENT STARS, KNOWN AS " MILE POSTS " , ARE AWAY BY AT LEAST TWENTY

> > DEGREES FROM THE RELEVANT NAKSHATRA! E.g. The Star Ashvini (Beta Arietis)

> > had an ecliptic longitude of about 34 degrees as on January 1, 2000 whereas

> > the nakshatra division of that (Ashvini) name of the so called Sayana

> > Rashichakra would range from 0 to 13-20' i.e. the Ashvini Star is out of the

> > range by at least 20 degrees from the outermost limit of the nakshatra

> > division of that very name. Equally, Bharni Star (41 Arietis) had a

> > longitude of 48 degrees in 2000 AD whereas that division ranges from 13-20

> > to 26-40. Thus Bharni star is out of range by at least 21 degrees from the

> > outermost limit of that very Bharani nakshatra division. Same is the case

> > with all the other nakshatras!

> >

> >

> >

> > THOSE " JYOTISHIS " CLAMOURING FOR A SO CALLED SAYANA RASHICHKARA FOR

> > PREDICTIVE GIMMICKS DO NOT SEE THE IRONY THAT THEY WILL NOT BE ABLE TO

> > CALCULATE ANY OF THE DASHA-BHUKTIS CORRECTLY SINCE NO NAKSHATRA WILL FALL IN

> > THE RELEVANT DIVISION NOR WILL THE RELEVANT STAR HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH

> > THE NAME-SAKE OF THAT VERY NAKSHATRA DIVISION!

> >

> > BUT THEN " SAYANA VEDIC JYOTSHIS " ARE HARDLY BETTER THAN " NIRAYANA VEDIC

> > JYOTISHIS " SINCE BOTH ARE BLIND TO THE WRITING ON THE WALL!

> >

> >

> >

> > " First Point of Aries " in the Kritika nakshatra

> >

> > How useless the so called Sayana rashis are vis-à-vis the actual Vedic

> > nakshatras will be clear from the following example:

> >

> > Shatapatha Brahmana 2/1/2/2 says " Krittikasu agnim adadheeta…eta ha vai

> > prachyai disho na chyavante… " . It means, " One should get consecrated in

> > Krittika nakshatra. They do not deviate from the East " . Krittikas did not

> > " deviate from the East " since the " First Point of Aries " was in that

> > nakshatra then i.e. about 3000 BCE. This nakshatra division ranges from

> > 26-10' to 40-00 degrees. However, the longitude of the Krittika star (Eta

> > Tauri a.k.a. Alcyone) as on January 1, 2000 AD was about 60 degrees. Thus

> > we will only be making a laughing stock of ourselves if we try to link the

> > so called sayana rashichakra to krittika nakshatra since it is away by about

> > 20 degrees from the extreme limit of that very nakshatra division!

> > Therefore it could hardly be such a non-existent krittika nakshatra which

> > our Vedic Rishis were talking about!

> >

> >

> >

> > Nakshatras in the Mahabharata:

> >

> > In the Shalya Parva 5/6, we find the following reference

> >

> > " Chatvarimshad ahanyadya dve me nissritasya vai, pushyena samprayatoasmi,

> > shravane punaragatah "

> >

> > Translation " I (Balarama) have been away for forty-two days. I left this

> > place on Pushya nakshatra and am back in Shravna nakshatra "

> >

> > Obviously, these could not be imaginary so called sayana nakshatras but the

> > actual nakshatras or prominent stars of those names, with which the moon had

> > been conjunct during the period of forty-two days when Balarama was away.

> > Pushya to Punarvasu means 27 nakshatras/days (excluding Abhijit) and then

> > again Pushya to Shravana means 15 days. Thus it becomes 42 days (if we

> > include both Pushya the day of departure and Shravana the day of coming

> > back) but if we include Abhijit also, it will be 28 days from Pushya to

> > Punarvasu and then 14 days from Pushya to Utarashadha – excluding Shravana.

> > But since in the VJ, there are only 27 nakshatras, it appears the MBH also

> > has been calculating the lunar nakshatra days in multiples of 27 only.

> > Besides, Abhijita is a nakshatra of very short duration -- hardly a few

> > degrees, thus the lunar conjunction with that nakshatra could not be that

> > long to be taken as one day. It could have been subsumed in other

> > nakshatras.

> >

> > In any case, it goes to prove that instead of artificial nakshatra divisions

> > of the so called " Sayana Vedic Jyotishis " the MBh also was taking into

> > account the actual nakshatras.

> >

> >

> >

> > Duplicate Chaitra etc. names

> >

> > Coming to your next point,

> >

> > <If at all duplicate nomenclature is to be used for the solar months, let it

> > be on the name of Rashis, as used in South India.>

> >

> >

> >

> > We have just seen in the commentary of Acharya Sayana as to how he clubbed

> > Chaitra etc. solar and lunar months with Vasanta etc. seasons.

> >

> >

> >

> > Acharya Sayana was a minister of Viajayanagar empire of South India

> > besides being the younger brother of Madhvacharya a.k.a. Vidyaranya Muni of

> > the " Panchadashi " fame. Acharya Sayana was a scholar of extraordinary

> > calibre and I have not seen yet any commentator of his stature who has

> > explained all the four Vedas in such an exhaustive and lucid manner. There

> > is hardly any scholar, whether from East or West, who does not acknowledge

> > the authority of Sayana about the Vedic interpretations. Aries etc. Rashis

> > were very much prevalent at Acharya Sayana's time in India – 14th century

> > AD--since the Surya Sidhanta by Maya the mlechha had got entrenched in our

> > cultural ethos by then completely. THE MILLION DOLLAR QUESTION THAT ARISES

> > HERE IS AS TO WHY DID ACHARYA SAYANA SPURN THE SO CALLED MESHA ETC. RASHIS

> > AND TALK ABOUT CHAITRA, VIAISHAKHA ETC. MONTHS VIS-À-VIS VEDIC SEASONS?

> >

> > Obviously, these Aries etc. signs being a creation of astrologers, did not

> > suit him (Acharya Sayana) at all, and he just ignored them with the disdain

> > and contempt these astrological rashis deserve. SCHOLARS THROUGHOUT INDIA

> > SHOULD EMULATE ACHARYA SAYANA IN THIS RESPECT i.e. they must spurn rashi

> > based calendar! But on the other hand, for the last about a hundred years,

> > maximum support of these good for nothing astrological rashis is being

> > provided/mustered by " Vedic astrologers " through their astrological

> > magazines and " Vedic jyotisha " monthlies and so on and so forth! These

> > " scholars " also preside over several " panchanga standardization committees "

> > and are always back at square one by opting for the same " almighty " Lahiri

> > Rashichakra that was being already used sine 1950, thanks to N. C. Lahiri's

> > jugglery!

> >

> > Thus these " Vedic scholars/astrologers " are decimating those very Vedas that

> > they pretend to defend and they are doing so just for the sake of sinful

> > crumbs which they earn by dint of " Vedic astrology " ---i.e. " correct

> > predictions from incorrect data " !

> >

> >

> >

> > I, therefore, do not see any valid reason against naming Madhu, Madhava etc.

> > Vedic months as solar Chaitra and Vaishakha etc. as was done by every Seer

> > from Lagadha of the VJ to Acharya Syana of Samaveda Bhashya. These very

> > names can be used for lunar months.

> >

> >

> >

> > Even alternative names of solar momths can be without astrological rashis:

> >

> > If, however, you are still of the opinion that the use of Chaitra etc. names

> > for solar as well as lunar months will create some confusion, we can think

> > over the thirteen names of solar/lunar months as given in Taittiriya

> > Brahmana 3/10/1. These are:

> >

> > 1) Arunah; 2)Arunarajah; 3) Pundareekah; 4) Vishvajit; 5) Abhijit; 6) Ardrah

> > 7) Pinvaman; 8) Unnavan; 9) Rasavan; 10) Iravan; 11) Sarvaushadhah; 12)

> > Sambharah; 13) Mahaswan

> >

> >

> >

> > (Please see page 27 of Dikshit's " Bharatiya Jyotisha " --English

> > translation—Vol. I)

> >

> >

> >

> > This will obviate the necessity of duplicating Chaitra etc. names for solar

> > as well lunar months without our having to fall back upon Aries etc.

> > astrological rashis.

> >

> >

> >

> > Amanta and Purnimanta systems -- both can and should continue:

> >

> > Regarding your earlier suggestion that there should be one pattern of lunar

> > months throughout India i.e. they should be either Amanta (New Moon to New

> > Moon) or Purnimanta (Full Moon to Full Moon), I am of the opinion that we

> > must continue with both the systems since both of them are Vedic, as

> > explained by me in one of my earlier posts to you about the same. I do not

> > want to make any changes in any pattern arbitrarily unless and until they

> > are warranted by the Vedas and are unavoidable. We are almost divided in

> > the middle --- half of India celebrating Amanta and half Purnimanta – and

> > it will create further confusion when we change the system from Makara to

> > Tapah and then ask Northern India to make Krishna Paksha follow Shukla

> > paksha or South and Central India etc. etc. to put Krishna Paksha before

> > Shukla Paksha. It will take them a considerable time to get to grips with

> > that double confusion, without any advantage or plus points. It is also not

> > necessary that they will agree with this suggestion of ours, since it is not

> > an easy job to change the settled pattern

> >

> >

> >

> > Sayana versus Nirayana is the worst conflict:

> >

> > Thus, in any case, once we shun Aries etc. Rashis completely for the real

> > Vedic Calendar, we shall then not have to enter into an endless discussion

> > and conflict with either " Vedic " or " anti-Vedic " or " non-Vedic " jyotishis,

> > since we will not be using rashis at all for Vedic calendar, which means

> > there will be no confusion whether the rashis are sayana or nirayana. Let

> > the jyotishis continue to wallow in the mud of those sayana and Lahiri and

> > Ramana and Fagan Rashis and give a full demonstration of their charlatanism

> > but at least our " Vedic calendar " will steer clear of the same since we will

> > not refer to Aries etc. astrological Rashsi as our Vedic Rishis never

> > referred to them, at least in respect of deciding the calendar.

> >

> > AND THAT IS NO MEAN ACHIEVEMENT.

> >

> > Sayana versus Nirayana was the main reason of the failure of " Calendar

> > Reform "

> >

> > Before closing this note, I must put on record my views as to why the

> > earlier efforts of streamlining the calendar failed:

> >

> > As we know through " Bharatiya Jyotisha Shastra " of Dikshit and other works,

> > real scholars of Vedic lore were feeling highly perturbed with the

> > anachronism of celebrating Uttarayana etc. phenomena after at least a

> > fortnight or so of the actual phenomenon over the last about couple of

> > hundred years. They also tried to put it back on rails and quite a few

> > seminars were held; quite a few " calendar reform committees " established,

> > but it had just become a zero sums game! Almost every " Committee " had

> > recommended the so called Sayana Rashis for celebrating festivals etc. but

> > the efforts were never successful in spite of even the Jagadguru

> > Shankarachrya of Dwarka, on a representation by V. R. Lele, issuing an

> > Adesha-Patra more than a 100 years back (in Shaka 1814)that only (so called)

> > Sayana rashis must be used for deciding fairs and festivals (Pl. see

> > " Bharatiya Jyotish Shastra " ). But now the same Dwarka Peetha, including the

> > current Jagadguru Shankaracharya of that Peetha, is celebrating all its

> > festivals and muhurtas not as per the Vedas or other shastras, but as

> > " dictated " by " almighty " Lahiri! WHY? Only because all these " reformists "

> > were talking of (so called) Sayana rashis, which is an anathema to " Vedic

> > Jyotishis " ! They just do not want to lose their sinful crumbs, however hard

> > we may try to instil God's fear into them! Money for them is more powerful

> > and intoxicating than Jeevan Mukti!

> >

> > THEREFORE, IT IS BETTER TO SHELVE THE RASHIS COMPLETELY -- WHETEHR THE SO

> > CALLED SAYANA OR THE SO CALLED NIRAYANA – FOR THE PURPOSE OF STREAMLINING

> > OUR CALENDAR! LET US PREPARE A " TITHI-PATRAK' WHICH DOES NOT CARRY THE

> > NAMES OF ANY RASHIS, SO THAT WE CELEBRATE OUR FESTIVALS ON CORRECT DAYS AND

> > LET THE " SAYANA VEDIC ASTROLOGERS " AS WELL AS THE " NIRAYANA VEDIC

> > ASTROLOGERS " CONTINUE TO " MAKE CORRECT PREDEICTIONS FROM INCORRECT DATA " .

> >

> > We must, therefore, select the seasonal year with Madhu, Madhava etc. months

> > with Aruna et. synonyms and Vasanta etc. seasons plus Chaitra, Vaishakha

> > etc. solar/lunar months coupled with Krittika etc. actual 28 nakshatras

> > (including Abhijit) instead of the so called sayana or nirayana nakshatra

> > division of 27 equal nakshatras.

> >

> > With regards,

> >

> > Avtar Krishen Kaul

> >

> >

> >

> > , " utkal.panigrahi " <utkal.panigrahi@>

> > wrote:

> >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> > Re: Festivals - Nakshathra and Rashi - Samveda Mantra !!

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > I m happy to post Samveda Mantra as I m a Samvediya Kauthumiya Brahmin,

> > the day I came to know about my lineage, I started efforts for studying

> > Samveda.

> >

> > --------------------------

> >

> > Mantra No # 222

> >

> > || Idam Vishnu-Rvi Chaktrame Tri-dha Ni Dadhe Padam, Samooddh Masya

> > Paa-Ansule ||

> >

> > The mantra recounts God Vishnu has measured the world in 3 steps.

> >

> > Earlier, I found a similar shloka in Rik Veda also, but, don't remember

> > exactly in what mandal it was there.

> >

> > --------------------------

> >

> > Mantra No. # 616 (Note : it clearly mentions 6 Ritu (seasons)

> > happening in the land of Vedas.

> >

> > || Vasant Innu Rantiyo Greeshma Innu Rantiyah, Varsha Innu Sharado

> > Hemantah Shishir Innu Rantiyah !!

> >

> > Note : I saw you people were trying to find out reference to 6 seasons

> > in one of the postings, what was the context, I dont remember, but, pls

> > be informed that Samveda Rishis were knowing 6 Ritu or Seasons.

> >

> > --------------------------

> >

> >

> > Mantra No. # 632 ( measurement of day)

> >

> >

> > || Trinsh-a-Ddhvam Vi Rajati Vakpat-Angaya Dhiyate, Prati Vastorah

> > Dyu-Bhiha ||

> >

> > Mnatra says that Sun lights up for 30 ghatis ( i.e. half a day, 60

> > ghatis make a day)

> >

> > --------------------------

> >

> > Reference to Nakschhatras is given in

> >

> > Mantra No. # 633

> >

> > || Aaaptye Taa-ya-yo Yatha Nakschhtra Yntya-Yukti-Bhi-ahi, Suryaya

> > Vishwa Chakschhase ||

> >

> >

> >

> > regards,

> > Utkal.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Kindly do so and paste hymns not only in Sanskrit but also in English.

 

VEDAS study now has become concentrated only to ELITE CLASS but it should be

known to common man like VEDIC-ASTROLOGY is gaining its roots.

 

Astrology and Astronomy are only part of VEDAS so other parts should also be

discussed in other forums and ppl of other nations should also come to know that

their ancestors were forcibly converted by swords to other religions.

 

 

Regs,

Prashant Pandey

 

--- On Thu, 10/12/09, utkal.panigrahi <utkal.panigrahi wrote:

 

 

utkal.panigrahi <utkal.panigrahi

Re: Festivals - Nakshathra and Rashi - Samveda Mantra !!

 

Thursday, 10 December, 2009, 8:01 PM

 

 

 

 

 

 

No worries, I will definitely revert after study of Sayan's commentary, however

the point of debate is Veda itself not commentary.

 

regards,

Utkal

 

, " prashant " <praspandey@ ...> wrote:

>

> Your knowledge of VEDAS is praiseworthy and you are second to none.

>

> But let me disprove your points as I am enjoying it, Pl counter my points, you

have not countered my points in which I challenged you.

>

> I would be happy to win a WEAK CASE.

>

> Don't categorize me in the TEAM of abusive ppl who have no knowledge but

abused you.

>

> Anyway my SECOND CHALLENGE to you:-

>

> 1) Prove that Madhu Madhav(Seasonal Months) name took birth before of Chaitra

Vaisakha Jyestha Asadha(NKS sidereal months),

>

> Show even a single verse from RIG VEDA of the Madhu Madhav.

> So, it is clear that Sidereal calendar (Based on NKS) came first

>

> 2) 6 Ritus are mentioned in Rig-Veda and there were 4 cardinal points. Show me

even a single verse which give hint that how one have to place 6 points (6

Ritus) on the circle with 4 reference points( 4 Cardinal points).

>

> So how you can say that Madhu Madhav are matching with what NKS months based

on Rig-Veda only.

>

> How one will decide on the knowledge of Rig-Veda what seasonal months were in

Northern sphere. Please you try with paper pen and try to place 6 points on

circle which are having 4 points on a circle. Try and let us know your

findings….

>

> So Vednga Jyotish is the manipulation of much later age and Rashis were of

second millennia BCE as I have shown the proofs from one Museum so both are of

same age, why one should go behind VJ's proposed calendar.

>

> Regs,

> Prashant Pandey

>

> CC:- Koenraad Elst

>

>

> , " jyotirved " <jyotirved@> wrote:

> >

> > Shri Utkal Panigrahiji,

> >

> > Jai Shri Ram!

> >

> > The following post was splashed in HinduCalendar forum several years back.

> >

> > This will give you and idea as to how and why the real Hindu calendar should

> > be without the mess known as Mesha, Vrisha etc. Rashis----whether so called

> > Sayana or so called nirayana, especially in view of the mantras from the

> > Samaveda and their commentary by Acharya Sayana!

> >

> > Regards,

> >

> > AKK

> >

> > *** **** ****

> > ***

> >

> > Shri Narayan Prasad ji,

> >

> > Namaste!

> >

> > I am indeed thankful to you for prodding me to make my thoughts about Vedic

> > luni-solar months etc. articulate and cohesive. I, therefore, request you to

> > please go through this post carefully so that we take some constructive

> > steps in the right direction for streamlining our calendars at the earliest.

> >

> >

> >

> > The shlokas quoted by Diksit are from recent works:

> >

> > The two sholkas that you have quoted from " Bahratiya Jyotish Shastra " of S.

> > B. Dikshit in support of Rashi based lunar months, are actually from " Kala

> > Madhava " of thirteenth century and " Kala Tattva Vivechan " of sixteenth

> > century AD. As such, both these works are quite recent ones and it is not

> > surprising at all that they have advocated to calculate lunar months

> > vis-à-vis astrological Rashis like Aries, Taurus etc.

> >

> >

> >

> > Vedic calendars were framed without astrological Rashis:

> >

> > However, the task we have at our hands is to streamline our calendars in

> > accordance with the Vedic lore that should be applicable to whole of India

> > and not as per Narada etc. Purana, that is based on the Surya Sidhanta of

> > Maya the mlechha, or some so called Jyotisha shastra etc.

> >

> > Let us, therefore, see the relevant references for that purpose i.e., the

> > real fundamentals of the calendar as it existed during the Vedic and

> > post-Vedic period.

> >

> >

> >

> > 1. 4000 BCE: The earliest reference--- at least of around 4000 BCE----we

> > have to an intercalary month (adhika-masa) is in the Rigveda 1/25/8. An

> > adhika-masa can take place only when lunar synodic months are calculated

> > vis-à-vis solar sankrantis. Since in the Vedic period only Madhu, Madhava

> > etc. solar months and not Aries etc. astrological rashis were in vogue, it

> > means that even the earliest references to lunar months in the Vedas are

> > without Mesha etc. Rashis but in relation to Madhu, Madhava etc. solar/lunar

> > months.

> > 2. 3000 BCE: Taittiriya Samhita 1/4/14 says: " Madhushcha madhavashcha

> > shukrashcha shuchishcha nabhashcha nabhasyashcha ishashcha oorjashcha

> > sahashcha sahasyashcha tapashcha tapasyashchai up yam griheeto asi samsarpo

> > asi amhaspatyay tva "

> >

> > Here Madhu, Madhava etc. twelve months have been named and then samsarpa is

> > the thirteenth (intercalary/ adhika) month and amhaspati a decayed (kshyaya)

> > month. THERE ARE NO RASHIS HERE AND LUNAR MONTHS, INCLUDING

> > ADHIKA/KSHAYA- MASA, WERE RELATED TO MADHU, MADHAVA ETC. SOLAR MONTHS AND

> > EVEN NAMED AS (LUNAR, APART FROM SOLAR) MADHU, MADHAVA ETC. WITHOUT ANY

> > DOUBT.

> >

> > 3. Again the same Taitiriya Samhita 5/6/7 says " shadratrir deekshitah

> > syat shadva ritavah samvatsarah…dwadasha ratreer deekshitah syat dwadasha

> > masah samvatsarah… trayodasha ratreer deekshitah syat, trayodasha masah

> > samvatsarah "

> >

> > i.e. " One should get consecrated for six days as the year comprises six

> > seasons. One should get consecrated for 12 days as the year comprises 12

> > months. One should get consecrated for 13 days as the year comprises 13

> > months (including an adhika masa) " . There are no rashis involved here but

> > the solar months Madhu, Madhava etc. are implied because of references to

> > six seasons, and thereby the lunar months are related to those very solar

> > months.

> >

> > 4. 3000 BCE: Vajasaneya Samhita 22/31 says:

> >

> > " Madhave svaha, madhavay svaha, shukray svaha shuchaye svaha, nabhase svaha,

> > nabhasyaya svaha, ishay svaha, oorjay svaha, sahase svaha, sahasyay svaha,

> > tapase svaha, tapasyaya svaha, amhaspataye svaha "

> >

> > Here all the twelve solar months of Madhu, Madhava etc. have been named

> > consecutively and the thirteenth month has been named as amhaspati.

> > Obviously, the thirteenth is an adhika lunar month. Thus as per this proof

> > also, lunar months were known by the names of solar months of Madhu, Madhva

> > etc. in early Vedic days!

> >

> > .

> >

> > 5. 3000 BCE and 100 BCE: In Shatapatha Brahmana 4/5/14 we find " Upayama

> > griheeto asi Madhave tu etyeva advaryur-grihnati upyama griheeto asi

> > madhavay tveti pratiprastha taitaveva vasantikav sayad vasante aushadhayo

> > jayante vanaspatayah pachyante tena haitav madhushcha madhavshcha "

> >

> > Translation " Since in the Vasnata (spring season) grains in the fields start

> > sprouting that is why the two months of that season are known as Madhu and

> > Madhvava " .

> >

> > The commentary on this mantra by Shri Hari-Swamin says, " Madhu Madhavaviti

> > chaitra vaishakhav ritu grahanam chaitradayo masah devatah. Chaitra

> > vaishakhayor madhu madhava namdheya praptim darshayati. Etav uktav masav

> > vasantikav "

> >

> > Translation " Madhu and Madhava are Chaitra and Vaishakha as they are the two

> > months of Spring season. As such the shruti has shown the names of Chaitra

> > and Vaishakha as Madhu and Madhava "

> >

> > Shri Hari-Swamin is said to be a scholar of around first century BCE. It

> > means that the tradition of calling solar months Madhu, Madhava by lunar

> > names like Caitra, Vaishakha etc. and vice-versa was prevailing then.

> >

> >

> >

> > 6. 1400 BCE: Acharya Lagadha's Vedanga Jyotisha says:

> >

> > " Svarakramete somarkav yada sakam savasavav, syat tadadi yugam maghastapah

> > shuklo ayanam hyudak "

> >

> > As per Dikshit's translation, it means " When the sun and the moon while

> > moving in the sky, come to Vasava (Dhanishtha i.e. Beta Delphini) star

> > together, then the yuga, the Magha (month), the tapas (seasonal month), the

> > light half of the month, and the Winter Solstice, all commence together " .

> >

> > 7. Sixth mantra of the same VJ says

> >

> > " Prapadyate shavishthadav surya chandramasav udak, sarpardhe dkshinarkastu,

> > magha shravanayoh sada "

> >

> > Dikshit's translation: " The sun and the moon turn towards North in the

> > beginning of Dhanishtha and towards South in the middle of Ashlesha. The

> > sun always does this in the month of Magha and Shravana "

> >

> > THIS IS THE VERY FIRST INDIGENOUS ASTRONOMICAL WORK OF 14TH CENTURY BCE AND

> > HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH SO CALLED ARIES ETC. RASHIS, WHETHER

> > SAYANA OR NIRAYANA, BUT TELLS US THE METHODLOGY OF CALCULATING ALL THE

> > TWELVE MONTHS, BOTH SOLAR AND LUNAR, LIKE TAPAH AND MAGHA, APART FROM WINTER

> > SOLSTICE AND SUMMER SOLSTICE ETC. IF ACHARYA LAGADHA COULD DO IT IN EARLY

> > 14TH CENTURY BCE, WITHOUT INVOLVING ANY ARIES ETC. ASTROLOGICAL RASHIS, WHY

> > CAN'T WE DO IT TODAY?

> >

> > 8. 1400 BCE to 400 BCE: The Mahabharata contains quite a few " finishing

> > touches " of a post Vedanga Jyotisha Era since it follows the VJ methodology

> > for calculating adhika-masa etc. This " itihasa " could therefore be of a

> > period of 1400 BCE to 400 BCE, since the latter was the period when

> > Graecho-Chaldean rashis had started gaining a foothold in India. Mangal,

> > Shani etc. planets, had, however been propagated in India prior to 400 BCE,

> > as is evident from the Atharva Jyotisha of about 500 BCE. That is why there

> > is no mention of Aries etc. astrological rashis in the MBh either but there

> > are references to nakshatras times without number. We also find reference

> > to Magha, Kaumudi etc. months at several places. In the Gita, which is a

> > part of the MBh, Lord Krishna has identified Himself with Margasheersha.

> >

> > Besides, it is also common knowledge that Bhishma waited for Uttarayana to

> > shed off his mortal coil but we do not find even by mistake anywhere in the

> > entire MBh any mention of Makara Rashi/sankranti, which is supposed to be

> > the synonym of Utarayana by " Sayana Vedic jyotishis " . Similarly, Bhishma is

> > said to have shed off his mortal coil on Magha Shukla ashtami in Rohini

> > nakshatra as per Shanti Parva 47/3 which reads as:

> >

> > " shuklapakshyasyash tamyam maghamasasya parthiva, prajapatye cha nakshatre

> > madyam prapte divakare…. "

> >

> > Here Magha Shukla ashtami and Rohini nakshatra have been mentioned clearly

> > without any reference to any Makara etc. rashi/sankranti. Same is the case

> > with several other references in the MBh, which proves it beyond any doubt

> > that Magha, Phalguna etc. solar/lunar months besides Uttarayana etc.

> > phenomena were calculated during those days also without any " assistance

> > from " Aries etc. astrological Rashis!

> >

> >

> >

> > 9. 875 AD: Vateshwara Sidhanta and Gola, a work of 9th century AD, says

> > in Chapter 3, verse 29 " The months Chaitra, Vaishakha etc. are called,

> > according to the Vedas, Madhu, Madhava, Shukra, Shuchih, Nabhas, Nabhasya,

> > Isha, Urja, Sahas, Sahasya, Tapas and Tapasya respectively. The names of

> > the seasons have come down to us since the time of the Vedas " .

> >

> > On page 423 of the same work (translated by K. S. Shukla, published by INSA,

> > Delhi) there is a table listing Chaitra etc. 12 months vis-à-vis Madhu etc.

> > Vedic months which have been clubbed with the respective seasons! IF

> > VATESHWARA COULD CALCULATE SOLAR AND LUNAR MONTHS WITHOUT THE " ASSISTANCE

> > OF " ARIES ETC. ASTROLOGICAL RASHIS, WHY CAN'T WE DO IT TODAY?

> >

> > 10. 1375 AD: A mantra in the Samaveda Samhita 4/6/4/2 reads:

> >

> > " Vasanto innur antyo greeshmo innur antyah varshani anu sharado hemanta

> > shishir innurantyah "

> >

> > As per this mantra six seasons of Vasanta, Grishma etc. have been discussed.

> > And this is how Acharya Sayana of 14th century AD has commented on it:

> >

> > " Vasantah innu – vasant eva chaitra vaishakharupi vasanta ritureva rantyah

–

> > ramaneeyah bhavati. Greeshma innu jyeshtha ashadarupo greeshm ritureva

> > rantyah ramaneeyah. Varshani varsha shravan bhadrapad rupen avayavi bhuta

> > pravrit ritur eva rantyah ramaneeyah. Tanyanu sharadah ashvina kartika

> > rupena avayaveebhoot rituh rantyah ramaneeyah. Hemanta margasheersha pausha

> > roop eve rantya ramneeyah shishir innu magha phalguna roop eva rantyah

> > ramneeyah "

> >

> >

> >

> > A simple and running English translation of this commentary of Sayana is

> > " Vasanta comprises two months of Chaitra and Vaishakha. Vasanta is a

> > pleasant season. Greeshma comprises two months of Jyeshtha and Ashada. It

> > is a pleasant season. Varsha comprises two limbs of Shravana and Bhadra.

> > Varsha is a pleasant season. Ashvina and Kartika are the two months of

> > Sharad ritu. Sharad ritu is a pleasant season. Margashersha and Pausha are

> > the two months of Hemanta. Hemanta is a pleasant season. Magha and

> > Phalguna are the two months of Shishira Ritu. Shishira Ritu is a pleasant

> > season " .

> >

> >

> >

> > We have thus seen above that right from the earliest Veda i.e. the Rigveda

> > (about 4000 BCE) till the end of the fourteenth century AD, there is an

> > unbroken stream of clubbing Chaitra, Vaishakha etc. lunar months with the

> > solar months of similar names and also Madhu and Madhava etc. solar months

> > with the lunar months of similar names without any assistance from any Aries

> > etc. astrological Rashis. Thus these very names serve the purpose of solar

> > as well as lunar months. We have seen that Acharya Sayana also has subsumed

> > Chaitra etc. months into Vasanta etc. seasons. It means that Chaitra etc.

> > were the names of solar months even according to him. Since these are also

> > the names of lunar months, obviously, lunar Chaitra would follow a solar

> > Chaitra, lunar Vaishakha a solar Vaishakha and so on.

> >

> >

> >

> > Vedic months Madhu, Madhava are synonymns of Chaitra, Vaishakha etc.

> >

> > That completely accounts for the following pattern of the Vedic calendar, as

> > summarized by Dr. A. K. Bag, in ( " History of Astronomy in India " , published

> > by INSA, Delhi) in his article " Astronomy in Indus Civilization and during

> > Vedic Times " . In fact, this is the summary given by him as per the

> > Taittiriya Samhita 4/4/11

> >

> > a) Vasanta Ritu comprising two solar months of Madhu and Madhava which

> > are also known as (solar) Chaitra and Vaishakha, with lunar Chaitra and

> > Vaishakha following the solar months of similar names.

> >

> > b) Grishma Ritu comprising two solar months of Shukrah and Shuchih, also

> > known as (solar) Jyeshtha and Ashada, with lunar Jyeshtha and Ashada

> > following the respective solar months.

> >

> > c) Varsha Ritu comprising two solar months of Nabhas and Nabhasya also

> > known as (solar) Shravana and Bhadra, with the lunar Shravana and Bhadra

> > following the respective solar months.

> >

> > d) Sharad Ritu comprsing the two solar months of Isha and Urja, also

> > known as (solar) months of Ashvina and Kartika, with lunar Ashvina and

> > Kartika following their respective solar months.

> >

> > e) Hemanta Ritu comprising the two solar months of Sahas and Sahasya,

> > also known as (solar) months of Margasheersha and Pausha, with lunar

> > Margasheersha and Pausha following their respective solar names.

> >

> > f) Shishira Ritu comprising the two solar months of Tapas and Tapasya,

> > also known as (solar) months of Magha and Phalguna, with lunar Magha and

> > Phalguna following their respective solar months.

> >

> >

> >

> > THAT IS THUS THE REAL VEDIC CALENDAR, AS ADVOCATED BY THE VEDAS, BRAHMANAS,

> > THE VEDANGA JYOTISHA, THE MAHABHARATA AND OUR ACHARYAS LIKE HARISWAMIN,

> > VATESHWARA AND SAYANA.

> >

> >

> >

> > Early Vedic lunar months were not necessarily as per Chitra etc. nakshatra

> > Full Moons:

> >

> > Regarding the names of lunar months as per the Full Moon nakshatra, this is

> > the system being followed at present for Lahiri festivals. As we have seen

> > above, if we want to adopt the real Vedic calendar, we do not have to run

> > after a Full Moon conjoining a particular lunar nakshatra for the name of

> > that lunar month.

> >

> >

> >

> > S. B. Dikshit has also clarified it at several places that the Full Moon

> > conjoining the relevant nakshatra for the names of lunar months is a much

> > later phenomenon. This is what he has said on page 30 of his work (English

> > translation of Part I):

> >

> > " In short the terms Chaitra etc. were not in vogue in the Samhita and

> > Brahmana period. Thus it can be proved from the historical point of view

> > that these terms came into use after a very long period of time after the

> > terms Madhu, etc. became current "

> >

> >

> >

> > But by the time of Vedanga Jyotisha (14th century BCE), Chaitra etc.

> > nomenclature for solar as well as lunar months, without reference to either

> > nakshatra based Purnimas or any Aries etc. astrological Rashis, had got

> > fully established.

> >

> > A practical demonstration of this point is that the VJ says that

> > Dakshinayana- cum-solar (Nabhasya)-cum- Shravana always starts when the New

> > Moon (Amanta) falls in the middle of Ashlesha and

> > Uttarayana-cum- Tapah-cum- Magha always starts when the New Moon is in

> > Dhanishtha. Neither of these two conditions gets always fulfilled either

> > for Dakshinayana or Uttarayana whether we take Lahiri nakshata division or

> > the so called sayana nakshatra division, the simple reason being that

> > according to the VJ, the nakshatras start from Krittika instead of from

> > Ashvini, and the year started from Uttarayana!

> >

> >

> >

> > THAT IS WHY WE HAVE TO DO A RE-THNK ABOUT THE NAKSHATRA DIVISION AS TO

> > WHETHER IT SHOULD START FROM ASHVINI OR KRITTIKA AND WHETHER IT SHOULD BE AN

> > EQUAL DIVISION OF 27 NAKSHATRAS OR AN UNEQUAL DIVISION OF 28 NAKSHATRAS AS

> > SUGGESTED BY BHASKARA-I AND OTHER EALIER ACHARYAS. THAT IS APART FROM THE

> > FACT AS TO WHETHERE THE NAKHATRAS SHOULD BE SO CALLED SAYANA OR SO CALLED

> > NIRAYANA!

> >

> > (Pl. se my post " When was the real Onam " ).

> >

> >

> >

> > " Sayana Vedic astrology " falls on its face by dint of the " crutches " of

> > Sayana nakshatras!

> >

> > WHILE TALKING ABOUT NAKSHATRAS, I MUST PUT ON RECORD THAT THE GREATEST

> > DRAW-BACK WITH NAKSHATRAS VIS-À-VIS THE SO CALLED SAYANA RASHIS IS THAT ALL

> > THE PROMINENT STARS, KNOWN AS " MILE POSTS " , ARE AWAY BY AT LEAST TWENTY

> > DEGREES FROM THE RELEVANT NAKSHATRA! E.g. The Star Ashvini (Beta Arietis)

> > had an ecliptic longitude of about 34 degrees as on January 1, 2000 whereas

> > the nakshatra division of that (Ashvini) name of the so called Sayana

> > Rashichakra would range from 0 to 13-20' i.e. the Ashvini Star is out of the

> > range by at least 20 degrees from the outermost limit of the nakshatra

> > division of that very name. Equally, Bharni Star (41 Arietis) had a

> > longitude of 48 degrees in 2000 AD whereas that division ranges from 13-20

> > to 26-40. Thus Bharni star is out of range by at least 21 degrees from the

> > outermost limit of that very Bharani nakshatra division. Same is the case

> > with all the other nakshatras!

> >

> >

> >

> > THOSE " JYOTISHIS " CLAMOURING FOR A SO CALLED SAYANA RASHICHKARA FOR

> > PREDICTIVE GIMMICKS DO NOT SEE THE IRONY THAT THEY WILL NOT BE ABLE TO

> > CALCULATE ANY OF THE DASHA-BHUKTIS CORRECTLY SINCE NO NAKSHATRA WILL FALL IN

> > THE RELEVANT DIVISION NOR WILL THE RELEVANT STAR HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH

> > THE NAME-SAKE OF THAT VERY NAKSHATRA DIVISION!

> >

> > BUT THEN " SAYANA VEDIC JYOTSHIS " ARE HARDLY BETTER THAN " NIRAYANA VEDIC

> > JYOTISHIS " SINCE BOTH ARE BLIND TO THE WRITING ON THE WALL!

> >

> >

> >

> > " First Point of Aries " in the Kritika nakshatra

> >

> > How useless the so called Sayana rashis are vis-à-vis the actual Vedic

> > nakshatras will be clear from the following example:

> >

> > Shatapatha Brahmana 2/1/2/2 says " Krittikasu agnim adadheeta…eta ha vai

> > prachyai disho na chyavante… " . It means, " One should get consecrated in

> > Krittika nakshatra. They do not deviate from the East " . Krittikas did not

> > " deviate from the East " since the " First Point of Aries " was in that

> > nakshatra then i.e. about 3000 BCE. This nakshatra division ranges from

> > 26-10' to 40-00 degrees. However, the longitude of the Krittika star (Eta

> > Tauri a.k.a. Alcyone) as on January 1, 2000 AD was about 60 degrees. Thus

> > we will only be making a laughing stock of ourselves if we try to link the

> > so called sayana rashichakra to krittika nakshatra since it is away by about

> > 20 degrees from the extreme limit of that very nakshatra division!

> > Therefore it could hardly be such a non-existent krittika nakshatra which

> > our Vedic Rishis were talking about!

> >

> >

> >

> > Nakshatras in the Mahabharata:

> >

> > In the Shalya Parva 5/6, we find the following reference

> >

> > " Chatvarimshad ahanyadya dve me nissritasya vai, pushyena samprayatoasmi,

> > shravane punaragatah "

> >

> > Translation " I (Balarama) have been away for forty-two days. I left this

> > place on Pushya nakshatra and am back in Shravna nakshatra "

> >

> > Obviously, these could not be imaginary so called sayana nakshatras but the

> > actual nakshatras or prominent stars of those names, with which the moon had

> > been conjunct during the period of forty-two days when Balarama was away.

> > Pushya to Punarvasu means 27 nakshatras/days (excluding Abhijit) and then

> > again Pushya to Shravana means 15 days. Thus it becomes 42 days (if we

> > include both Pushya the day of departure and Shravana the day of coming

> > back) but if we include Abhijit also, it will be 28 days from Pushya to

> > Punarvasu and then 14 days from Pushya to Utarashadha – excluding

Shravana.

> > But since in the VJ, there are only 27 nakshatras, it appears the MBH also

> > has been calculating the lunar nakshatra days in multiples of 27 only.

> > Besides, Abhijita is a nakshatra of very short duration -- hardly a few

> > degrees, thus the lunar conjunction with that nakshatra could not be that

> > long to be taken as one day. It could have been subsumed in other

> > nakshatras.

> >

> > In any case, it goes to prove that instead of artificial nakshatra divisions

> > of the so called " Sayana Vedic Jyotishis " the MBh also was taking into

> > account the actual nakshatras.

> >

> >

> >

> > Duplicate Chaitra etc. names

> >

> > Coming to your next point,

> >

> > <If at all duplicate nomenclature is to be used for the solar months, let it

> > be on the name of Rashis, as used in South India.>

> >

> >

> >

> > We have just seen in the commentary of Acharya Sayana as to how he clubbed

> > Chaitra etc. solar and lunar months with Vasanta etc. seasons.

> >

> >

> >

> > Acharya Sayana was a minister of Viajayanagar empire of South India

> > besides being the younger brother of Madhvacharya a.k.a. Vidyaranya Muni of

> > the " Panchadashi " fame. Acharya Sayana was a scholar of extraordinary

> > calibre and I have not seen yet any commentator of his stature who has

> > explained all the four Vedas in such an exhaustive and lucid manner. There

> > is hardly any scholar, whether from East or West, who does not acknowledge

> > the authority of Sayana about the Vedic interpretations. Aries etc. Rashis

> > were very much prevalent at Acharya Sayana's time in India – 14th century

> > AD--since the Surya Sidhanta by Maya the mlechha had got entrenched in our

> > cultural ethos by then completely. THE MILLION DOLLAR QUESTION THAT ARISES

> > HERE IS AS TO WHY DID ACHARYA SAYANA SPURN THE SO CALLED MESHA ETC. RASHIS

> > AND TALK ABOUT CHAITRA, VIAISHAKHA ETC. MONTHS VIS-À-VIS VEDIC SEASONS?

> >

> > Obviously, these Aries etc. signs being a creation of astrologers, did not

> > suit him (Acharya Sayana) at all, and he just ignored them with the disdain

> > and contempt these astrological rashis deserve. SCHOLARS THROUGHOUT INDIA

> > SHOULD EMULATE ACHARYA SAYANA IN THIS RESPECT i.e. they must spurn rashi

> > based calendar! But on the other hand, for the last about a hundred years,

> > maximum support of these good for nothing astrological rashis is being

> > provided/mustered by " Vedic astrologers " through their astrological

> > magazines and " Vedic jyotisha " monthlies and so on and so forth! These

> > " scholars " also preside over several " panchanga standardization committees "

> > and are always back at square one by opting for the same " almighty " Lahiri

> > Rashichakra that was being already used sine 1950, thanks to N. C. Lahiri's

> > jugglery!

> >

> > Thus these " Vedic scholars/astrologer s " are decimating those very Vedas

that

> > they pretend to defend and they are doing so just for the sake of sinful

> > crumbs which they earn by dint of " Vedic astrology " -- -i.e. " correct

> > predictions from incorrect data " !

> >

> >

> >

> > I, therefore, do not see any valid reason against naming Madhu, Madhava etc.

> > Vedic months as solar Chaitra and Vaishakha etc. as was done by every Seer

> > from Lagadha of the VJ to Acharya Syana of Samaveda Bhashya. These very

> > names can be used for lunar months.

> >

> >

> >

> > Even alternative names of solar momths can be without astrological rashis:

> >

> > If, however, you are still of the opinion that the use of Chaitra etc. names

> > for solar as well as lunar months will create some confusion, we can think

> > over the thirteen names of solar/lunar months as given in Taittiriya

> > Brahmana 3/10/1. These are:

> >

> > 1) Arunah; 2)Arunarajah; 3) Pundareekah; 4) Vishvajit; 5) Abhijit; 6) Ardrah

> > 7) Pinvaman; 8) Unnavan; 9) Rasavan; 10) Iravan; 11) Sarvaushadhah; 12)

> > Sambharah; 13) Mahaswan

> >

> >

> >

> > (Please see page 27 of Dikshit's " Bharatiya Jyotisha " --English

> > translation—Vol. I)

> >

> >

> >

> > This will obviate the necessity of duplicating Chaitra etc. names for solar

> > as well lunar months without our having to fall back upon Aries etc.

> > astrological rashis.

> >

> >

> >

> > Amanta and Purnimanta systems -- both can and should continue:

> >

> > Regarding your earlier suggestion that there should be one pattern of lunar

> > months throughout India i.e. they should be either Amanta (New Moon to New

> > Moon) or Purnimanta (Full Moon to Full Moon), I am of the opinion that we

> > must continue with both the systems since both of them are Vedic, as

> > explained by me in one of my earlier posts to you about the same. I do not

> > want to make any changes in any pattern arbitrarily unless and until they

> > are warranted by the Vedas and are unavoidable. We are almost divided in

> > the middle --- half of India celebrating Amanta and half Purnimanta – and

> > it will create further confusion when we change the system from Makara to

> > Tapah and then ask Northern India to make Krishna Paksha follow Shukla

> > paksha or South and Central India etc. etc. to put Krishna Paksha before

> > Shukla Paksha. It will take them a considerable time to get to grips with

> > that double confusion, without any advantage or plus points. It is also not

> > necessary that they will agree with this suggestion of ours, since it is not

> > an easy job to change the settled pattern

> >

> >

> >

> > Sayana versus Nirayana is the worst conflict:

> >

> > Thus, in any case, once we shun Aries etc. Rashis completely for the real

> > Vedic Calendar, we shall then not have to enter into an endless discussion

> > and conflict with either " Vedic " or " anti-Vedic " or " non-Vedic " jyotishis,

> > since we will not be using rashis at all for Vedic calendar, which means

> > there will be no confusion whether the rashis are sayana or nirayana. Let

> > the jyotishis continue to wallow in the mud of those sayana and Lahiri and

> > Ramana and Fagan Rashis and give a full demonstration of their charlatanism

> > but at least our " Vedic calendar " will steer clear of the same since we will

> > not refer to Aries etc. astrological Rashsi as our Vedic Rishis never

> > referred to them, at least in respect of deciding the calendar.

> >

> > AND THAT IS NO MEAN ACHIEVEMENT.

> >

> > Sayana versus Nirayana was the main reason of the failure of " Calendar

> > Reform "

> >

> > Before closing this note, I must put on record my views as to why the

> > earlier efforts of streamlining the calendar failed:

> >

> > As we know through " Bharatiya Jyotisha Shastra " of Dikshit and other works,

> > real scholars of Vedic lore were feeling highly perturbed with the

> > anachronism of celebrating Uttarayana etc. phenomena after at least a

> > fortnight or so of the actual phenomenon over the last about couple of

> > hundred years. They also tried to put it back on rails and quite a few

> > seminars were held; quite a few " calendar reform committees " established,

> > but it had just become a zero sums game! Almost every " Committee " had

> > recommended the so called Sayana Rashis for celebrating festivals etc. but

> > the efforts were never successful in spite of even the Jagadguru

> > Shankarachrya of Dwarka, on a representation by V. R. Lele, issuing an

> > Adesha-Patra more than a 100 years back (in Shaka 1814)that only (so called)

> > Sayana rashis must be used for deciding fairs and festivals (Pl. see

> > " Bharatiya Jyotish Shastra " ). But now the same Dwarka Peetha, including the

> > current Jagadguru Shankaracharya of that Peetha, is celebrating all its

> > festivals and muhurtas not as per the Vedas or other shastras, but as

> > " dictated " by " almighty " Lahiri! WHY? Only because all these " reformists "

> > were talking of (so called) Sayana rashis, which is an anathema to " Vedic

> > Jyotishis " ! They just do not want to lose their sinful crumbs, however hard

> > we may try to instil God's fear into them! Money for them is more powerful

> > and intoxicating than Jeevan Mukti!

> >

> > THEREFORE, IT IS BETTER TO SHELVE THE RASHIS COMPLETELY -- WHETEHR THE SO

> > CALLED SAYANA OR THE SO CALLED NIRAYANA – FOR THE PURPOSE OF STREAMLINING

> > OUR CALENDAR! LET US PREPARE A " TITHI-PATRAK' WHICH DOES NOT CARRY THE

> > NAMES OF ANY RASHIS, SO THAT WE CELEBRATE OUR FESTIVALS ON CORRECT DAYS AND

> > LET THE " SAYANA VEDIC ASTROLOGERS " AS WELL AS THE " NIRAYANA VEDIC

> > ASTROLOGERS " CONTINUE TO " MAKE CORRECT PREDEICTIONS FROM INCORRECT DATA " .

> >

> > We must, therefore, select the seasonal year with Madhu, Madhava etc. months

> > with Aruna et. synonyms and Vasanta etc. seasons plus Chaitra, Vaishakha

> > etc. solar/lunar months coupled with Krittika etc. actual 28 nakshatras

> > (including Abhijit) instead of the so called sayana or nirayana nakshatra

> > division of 27 equal nakshatras.

> >

> > With regards,

> >

> > Avtar Krishen Kaul

> >

> >

> >

> > , " utkal.panigrahi " <utkal.panigrahi@ >

> > wrote:

> >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> > Re: Festivals - Nakshathra and Rashi - Samveda Mantra !!

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > I m happy to post Samveda Mantra as I m a Samvediya Kauthumiya Brahmin,

> > the day I came to know about my lineage, I started efforts for studying

> > Samveda.

> >

> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

> >

> > Mantra No # 222

> >

> > || Idam Vishnu-Rvi Chaktrame Tri-dha Ni Dadhe Padam, Samooddh Masya

> > Paa-Ansule ||

> >

> > The mantra recounts God Vishnu has measured the world in 3 steps.

> >

> > Earlier, I found a similar shloka in Rik Veda also, but, don't remember

> > exactly in what mandal it was there.

> >

> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

> >

> > Mantra No. # 616 (Note : it clearly mentions 6 Ritu (seasons)

> > happening in the land of Vedas.

> >

> > || Vasant Innu Rantiyo Greeshma Innu Rantiyah, Varsha Innu Sharado

> > Hemantah Shishir Innu Rantiyah !!

> >

> > Note : I saw you people were trying to find out reference to 6 seasons

> > in one of the postings, what was the context, I dont remember, but, pls

> > be informed that Samveda Rishis were knowing 6 Ritu or Seasons.

> >

> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

> >

> >

> > Mantra No. # 632 ( measurement of day)

> >

> >

> > || Trinsh-a-Ddhvam Vi Rajati Vakpat-Angaya Dhiyate, Prati Vastorah

> > Dyu-Bhiha ||

> >

> > Mnatra says that Sun lights up for 30 ghatis ( i.e. half a day, 60

> > ghatis make a day)

> >

> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

> >

> > Reference to Nakschhatras is given in

> >

> > Mantra No. # 633

> >

> > || Aaaptye Taa-ya-yo Yatha Nakschhtra Yntya-Yukti- Bhi-ahi, Suryaya

> > Vishwa Chakschhase ||

> >

> >

> >

> > regards,

> > Utkal.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Shri Prashant Pandeyji.

Jai Shri Ram!

 

Pl. recall the long telephonic conversation you had with me a few days back

regarding several topics including Kemadruma vis-a-vis kalpadruma etc. etc.

 

I do not think it is proper to have posted those very queries on a forum

without the telephonic responses that I had given!

 

In any case, as suggested already, pl. consolidate all your

research----which is as on date actually all in the realm of speculation or

at best just a wishful thinking---- and subject it to peer review in proper

forums instead of making a sounding board of my point of view!

 

I have also made it clear to you telephonically that of late I have

minimized my interaction on forums since I have been informed by several

friends that my mails are cross-posted on all the forums like

vedic astrology, sohamsa, waves-vedic, om-namah-shivaya-group,

ancient-indian-astrology etc. etc. with all the " objections " , though I have

repeated it several time that all those forums have either banned me or i

have d from them or they just do not let my posts appear there,

with the result that I do not know as to who is saying what and cannot

counter any of the points/insinuations those posts may contain!

 

For instance, Shri Vinay Jha, when he was a member of this ()

forum, went on repeating that he had confronted me with all the arguments in

forum about the Surya Sidhanta ayanamsha, and I

kept on telling him that he must be mistaken! I requested Shri Jha several

times to post a copy of that very message on so that we could

discuss things about the Surya Sidhanta ayanamsha, but he just left the

forum instead! However, A gentleman from vedic astrology forum informed me

that Shri Jha had reposted that very AIA message and he forwarded it to me

from AIA itself.

 

I am posting a copy of Shri Jha's #17107 dt. January 6, 2009, in AIA when

I had actually left that forum perhaps in January 2008!

 

Though personal remarks about someone in any forum, who is not a

member there, is against rules and regulations and can land

owners/moderators/posters of such forums in a great deal of trouble as per

US laws, but I do not want to go to such extremes since I have something

more important to do than to waste my time on such " pursuits " .

 

As such, I do not want similar situation to continue and have therefore

curtailed my responses to the extent possible.

 

Jai Shri Ram!

 

A K Kaul

 

*******

*******

*****

 

Copy of # 17107 dt. Jan 6, 09, by Shri Vinay Jha in

forum:

 

I read the heated debate about ayanamsha, and was sorry to find a

supposedly scholarly debated stooping to such low standards. At first,

I tried to keep away due to the foul language of Mr Kaul, but Mr A K

Kaul is determined to create a fuss about Vedic Jyotisha, esp about

Suryasiddhanta (SS henceforth), which he claims to have read but could

not digest.

 

I beg apology for my harsh words, but I am helpless. Mr A K Kaul calls

Mr Sharan and all adherents of Vedic Jyotisha fools. Hence, I feel it

necessary to bring to light the quality of his erudition. He says :

" If you take these shlokas , which are supposed to be referring to

precession/ayanamsha as authentic and from the original Surya

Sidhanta, then for your information, the current ayanamsha as per the

Surya Sidhanta is not -24 (minus twenty four) degrees as claimed by

Lahirwalas nor about 23 degrees as claimed by Shakuntala Devi but +47

(plus forty seven) degrees! And for your further information, these

very " trimshat kritva... " shlokas have been quoted by Narada Rishi

(sic!) in Narad Purana,which is supposed to be an authority for " Vedic

astrologers " but Gita Press Hindi translator/commentator has

interpreted those very shlokas in such a manner as to make the

ayanamsha equal to that of Lahiri! "

 

Mr Kaul would not value commentaries by pandits, hence I am here using

the commentary of Christian priest E Burgess :

 

In a mahayuga of 4320000 years, there are 600 librations/trepidations

of bha-chakra, one libration in 7200 years, upto a maximum of +/- 27

degrees. Nearly 3893109 years have passed since this mahayuga began

(mean mesha samkranti of 2009 AD). Hence, (3893109 / 4320000 =)

90.11826263888889 % of a mahayuga has passed. Therefore, out of 600

librations in a mahayuga, 540.7095833333 librations have completed.

Leaving aside 540 complete librations, we are left with a fraction

0.7095833333, which must be converted into degrees. How ?

 

Multiply a full cycle with 3/10, you will get 108 degrees. It is one

full libration. It resembles a sinewave crudely, ie, having a

positive half cycle of 3600 years and an equal negative half-cycle.

First, ayanamsha rises from zero to +27 degrees, then gets down to

zero again. It is positive half-cycle. Then it moves to -27 degrees

and again to zero. This is negative half cycle.

 

From the fraction 0.7095833333, let us substract 0.5 for the positive

half cycle which ended in 499 AD, which was the zero date for

Aryabhatiya. Thereafter, negative half-cycle behan, which will attain

its nadir of -27 degrees in AD 2299. We are left with 0.7095833333 -

0.5 = 0.2095833333. Since one libration is equal to four quartets of

27 degrees each, a total of 108 degrees, 0.2095833333 libration is

equal to - 22.635 degrees, or 22:38':06 " . it is negative.

 

Surprisingly, Mr Kaul gets +47 instead of -23 degrees from God knows

where! An error of merely 70 degrees. No mean achievement by a

" scholar " who boasts thus : " I have read quite a few sidhants,

especially the SS with Sanskrit commentary Sudha Varshini by Pt.

Sudhakar Dwivedi, Hindi commentary by Mahavir Prasad Shrivastav and of

course, the world famous Burgess translation! All the commentators

have declared unequivocally that Maya the mlechha had absolutely no

knowledge of precession. On the other hand, the world famous shlokas

trimshat kritva yuge bhanam... of the SS are an interpolation of a

much later date of about tenth century AD! That also has been admitted

by all the comentators! "

 

Mr Kaul is being deluded by wrong headed commentators like Reverend

Burgess or Mahavir Prasad. These commentators could not understand the

intricate mathematics of SS. Burgess admitted that he could not

understand the logic behind four samskaras needed to make a true

planet out of mean. No commentator has ever published the real

forlulas. Non-believers in SS are denied this supreme knowledge of

jyotisha. Let Mr Kaul study SS before abusing its " topsy turvy

ayanamsha " .

 

Maya was not a mlechchha, but an asura who attained brahma-jnana

( " rahasyam brahma sammitam " , cf. last verse of SS) by means of

tapasya and taught Jyotisha to rishis. Asuras were also part of Indian

culture, only their religion was anti-Vedic. But Maya worshipped Vedic

god Surya and obtained, among other shastras, the ULTIMATE knowledge

about Jyotisha (brahma jnana).

 

It is not my view, but the initial and final shlokas of SS say so.

Brahma jnana is not a mere knowledge of planetary positions, otherwise

evry fool would obtain brahmajana by sitting at a computer or visiting

a planetarium. Jyotisha is a non-physical science of hidden things

which guide destinies of men and nations, besodes weather & c. Whether

SS is a text of brahma jnana or not can be tested only by a braha

jnani, not by a fool dependent on erroneous commentaries of Reverend

Burgess or his brown chelas like Mahavie Prasad.

 

Mr Kaul says : " trimshat kritva yuge bhanam... of the SS are an

interpolation of a much later date of about tenth century AD! That

also has been admitted by all the comentators! " He is either lying or

has no access to the meaning of SS and its commentaries.

 

It is foolish to believe that the concept of ayanamsha is a later

invention. What modern commentators are failing to recognize is the

fact that ayanamsha has nothing to do with precession of equinoxes.

The latter has no relevance in Vedic Jyotisha based upon ancient texts

like SS. Manjula wrote about precession. But SS has no use of it,

because SS has nothing to do with the material world. Its grahas are

deities of bhuvaloka, which could be seen by Maya only after tapasya.

Proof of Vedic Jyotisha lies in the efficacy of its predictive part :

phalita. Unfortunately, materialists are refusing to accept the

existence of a bhuvaloka of deities, and are hoping to get benefits of

jyotisha at the same time! There are a lot of persons who use

physical astronomy in Ganita-Jyotisha, and Parashara of Jaimini in

Phalita, but such a " scientific " jyotisha is neither science nor jyotisha.

 

I request Mr Kaul and others to stop abusing Surya Siddhanta and test

its efficacy not by comparing it with physical astronomy but by

testing the predictive results according to BPHS & c. Lahirians are

destroying Vedic Jyotisha by killing its original Ganita, which has

made Phalita a gambling, resulting in a supposed need to reform Phlita

as well !

 

Aryabhatiya is a special text mixing tantra method of computing from

yuga's start with karana method of computing from nearest important

phenomena, which was zero ayanamsha in 499 AD. The karana tables of

Aryabhatiya have been lost, hence computing merely on the basis of the

extant Aryabhatiya gives highly inaccurate values for any epoch. It is

not a coincidence that Aryabhatiya uses the year of zero ayanamsha.

 

His insistence that ayanamsha was a medieval invention means that real

jyotisha started in medieval period. What Mr Kaul refuses to see is

that without ayanamsha, it will be impossible to compute sunrise,

ishtakaal, lagna (ascendant) and twelve bhaavas, declension, etc.

 

SS has two aspects : Saurpaksha and Drikpaksha. First is the

mathematics of bhuvaloka needed in astrology, second deals with

physical world. Both aspects of SS were in full bloom, but due to

uselessness of Drikpaksha (ie, physical astronomy), its manuscripts

were not preserved. But all is not lost. All major astronomical

constants of modern astronomy can be deduced by means of Saurpakshiya

mathematics, without any obcervation of heavenly phenomena. Salient

points of this Vedic Science was published in Hindi three years ago,

but is now our of print. It is being translated.

 

Here, I am giving a simple instance of the magic of Suryasiddanta.

Paramkranti (max. declension) has a value of 24 degrees exactly in SS.

Due to a 12 degree shift between Saurpaksha and Drikpaksha ecliptic

planes, you need to multiply Sine24 with Cos12 (or Sin78) degrees, and

then take the arc of resultant, which is the maximum Drikpakshiya

declension of modern astronomy , 23:26':37.48 " . Now-a-days, nutation

is negative. Substract nutation, and you will get absolutely accurate

value of declension of modern physical astronomy. So simple, yet so

superb a science. Does the present generation of mankind deserve this

divine gift (Suryasiddanta) ?

 

But we must not use this drikpakshiya value in astrology, otherwise we

will get wrong results in Phalita. That is what the likes of all

followeres of Lahiri are doing today.

 

Suryasiddanta is infinite. It can give Mr Kaul more than he can ever

imagine. But not if he abuses its " topsy-turvy " things which he does

not understand, as is clear from his errors in computations shown above.

 

Please take my words in a positive manner. Learn Suryasiddanta before

abusing it. The published text is merely a tip of the iceberg.

Suryasiddanta is " RAHASYAM brahma-sammitam " , which has never been

given to a person who is not under an oath to observe lifelong

brahmacharya. There are other conditions as well, but brahmacharya is

the first condition for getting " RAHASYAM brahma-sammitam " . However,

materialists believe in nothing beyond this material world of

Phenomena (of five senses), they are blind to the Suryasiddhantic

world of Noumena.

 

The Vedanga Jyotisha dating of 1400 BCE cited by Mr Kaul will be dealt

with separately, to show the mathematical ineptitude of Colebrooke and

his chelas. There is no real basis for 1400 BC, whatsoever.

 

For the first time in my life, I have taught some Jyotisha to an

abuser of this divine science, for which I will have to undergo some

penance. That penance will come in the form of abuses from Mr Kaul and

others, for which I am eagerly waiting, with a lot of love and sincerity.

 

-VJ

 

 

 

, " prashant " <praspandey wrote:

>

> < Several decades back I was as eager as any jyotishi can be to find not

only Mesha, Vrisha etc. astrological rashis but also Dasha-bhuktis and even

Kemadruma etc. yogas in the Vedas! >

>

> It is good that you didn't say this time that Kemadruma is of Greek origin

like David Pingree, great Historian of WEST, said, but this man was not

aware that in Shatapatha Brahmna so many times Druma and KalpaDruma word had

been used, and Kemadruma is opposite of Kalpadruma.

>

> On the basis of argument that, Kemadruma is of Greek origin he said that

BPHS is copy of Yavana Jatakam. Though he also gave list of 8-9 words which

he said that those words are of Greek origin but all those words were

already coined in Sanskrit in much ancient time.

>

> Druma and Kalpa Druma word had been already coined in 3'rd Millenia BCE as

evident from VERSES from ShataPatha Brahmna.

>

> So now whole argument is reverse(as the base of argument was only on the

basis of origin of 9-10 words) ie that word went in Greek word from India,

So Yavana Jatakam had been copied from India and went to Greek world.

>

> Ha Ha Ha Ha...

>

> Atri Rishi was aware of eclipse cycle and Hymns about it (technique of

eclipse is not mentioned in Rig Veda) are in Rig Veda and that transferred

to Assyrians (Descendant of Atri, Brighu and Kashyap Rishi) and that cycle

was used by Hipparchus in 2'nd Cent BCE ,

>

> Dear Kaulji, Could you please tell us why Atri Rishi didn't describe about

the whole technique of eclipse cycle in length in Rig Veda itself. Where is

whole text ?? Why not cycle is mentioned in VEDAS like KemaDruma yoga why he

only gave hint..

>

> I think now you got the answer about KemaDruma.

>

> < that to ascribe predictive gimmicks to the Vedic Seers is the greatest

injustice that can be done to them. >

>

> Should i show what Vedic seers said?? Keep aside Manu Smriti...

>

> Should I also show single-single planets in Rig Veda itself and also

characteristics of those planets described in Rig-Veda itself which are now

being used around the world.

>

> Kaulji, one question for you, could you please show even a single copy of

Rig Veda of first Millenia AD (I asked of AD not of BCE)

>

> Regs,

> Prashant Pandey

>

> CC:- Koenraad Elst

>

> , " Krishen " jyotirved@ wrote:

> >

> >

> >

> > Shri Utkal Panigrahiji,

> >

> > Jai Shri Ram!

> >

> > Really glad that you have started going through the Vedas even if it is

> > only to prove me wrong!

> >

> > I have just one request: Pl. donot be elated at your confirming your own

> > misconceptions!

> >

> > Pl. study Sayana Bhashya of the mantras that you have referred to, and

> > you will see it for yourself that it is at all not astrological signs

> > like Vrishaba and Mithuna and Kanya that are meant in those mantras!

> >

> > Kripaya arth ka narth mat keejiye!

> >

> > Jai Shri Ram!

> >

> > A K Kaul

> >

> > PS

> >

> > Several decades back I was as eager as any jyotishi can be to find not

> > only Mesha, Vrisha etc. astrological rashis but also Dasha-bhuktis and

> > even Kemadruma etc. yogas in the Vedas! But by and by I could realize

> > the truth, which you will also realize sooner or later, that to ascribe

> > predictive gimmicks to the Vedic Seers is the greatest injustice that

> > can be done to them.

> >

> > AKK

> >

> > , " utkal.panigrahi "

> > <utkal.panigrahi@> wrote:

> > >

> > >

> > > Group,

> > >

> > > I m elated at my luck that God made me instrumental to prove that our

> > > sages discovered rasi names that we are using today.

> > >

> > > Pls find downloadable PDF version of Rikveda with reference to Rasi

> > > Names

> > >

> > > http://www.sanskritweb.org/rigveda/rv08-082.pdf

> > > <http://www.sanskritweb.org/rigveda/rv08-082.pdf>

> > > 93:1 - Vrisabha

> > >

> > > http://www.sanskritweb.org/rigveda/rv03-030.pdf

> > > <http://www.sanskritweb.org/rigveda/rv03-030.pdf>

> > >

> > > 39.3 - Mithuna

> > >

> > > http://www.sanskritweb.org/rigveda/rv06-048.pdf

> > > <http://www.sanskritweb.org/rigveda/rv06-048.pdf>

> > > 6:49:7- Kanya

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > The allegations made by Mr Kaul, Satya Praksh, Bharadwj, stupid

> > Srinads

> > > etc is found a falsity, Rest of the world learnt Jyotish from us

> > > including Greek and Babylonians.

> > >

> > > Now, The debate ends, I Believe, Mr. Kaul will accept that his

> > > proposition was wrong, though I admire him for his study,

> > unfortunately,

> > > He had not done complete study and out of excitement happen to claim

> > > that vedic sages have not been using Rasi Names and we Indian borrowed

> > > Rasi Names from Greeks etc.

> > >

> > > Truth Wins Always, The Proof is discovered !!

> > >

> > > I am thankful to God that he gave me resources, energy and direction

> > > otherwise it w'd have taken months and years in locating Rasi Names as

> > > in the last posting I said that I m going to begin study of Taitriya

> > > Samhita and Boudhayana Sutra, but, As god wanted to bring truth within

> > > hours, everything is arranged in couple of hours.

> > >

> > > Spirituality, Honesty and Courage is Key to Jyotish, Perhapse, God

> > > wanted to prove it.

> > >

> > > Best Regards,

> > > Utkal.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

< In any case, as suggested already, pl. consolidate all your

research----which is as on date actually all in the realm of speculation or at

best just a wishful thinking >

 

When person starts loosing ground he makes such comments.

 

Why you don't take up challenge and write on those mails and show that yes your

base of calendar making is correct and show that it is not MESOPOTAMIAN CALENDAR

as said by David Pingree, should I show similarities between Assyrians and

Lagdhas VJ's calendar…

 

You have manipulated many things and gave birth to Madhu Madhav before to NKS

months and tried to play with the NKS months, read all documents again and see

the fault…

 

In Message #24998, you wrote as following :-

 

********************************************************************

On the other hand, a Vedic Vasanti Navratra always starts with the first New

Moon after the start of Vasanta Ritu, since the " shortfall " of eleven days in a

lunar cycle of twelve months vis-à-vis a solar year is compensated by an

adhika-masa every 32/33 solar months. This adhika masa concept is in fact found

in the ancient most work viz. the Rigveda " Veda maso dhrita vrato dwadasha

prajavatah, veda ya upajayate " (Rigveda 1/25/8) i.e. " Varuna

knows the twelve months, it also knows the thirteenth (adhika) month " .

*******************************************************************

 

Please substantiate your wishful speculation by Rig Veda only !

 

Show how you got the figure of 11 !

 

Such type magic Subash Kak, You and R N Iyengar can do ! Am i wrong ??

 

< Pl. recall the long telephonic conversation you had with me a few days back

regarding several topics including Kemadruma vis-a-vis kalpadruma etc. etc. I do

not think it is proper to have posted those very queries on a forum without the

telephonic responses that I had given! >

 

Pl do write about the response what you gave to me.

 

< and subject it to peer review in proper forums instead of making a sounding

board of my point of view! >

 

Who will do Peer review, yes I know you are doing it brilliantly, BTW why

Koenraad , most recognized author, could not spoke even a single word instead of

only abuses.

 

 

Kaulji the forum which you are suggesting, i have already read msgs from archive

and know what they know, I know how much they know that is why you didn't see,

Koenraad was living in dreams with his views

 

Shayad itna kaphi hai….Phir likheyngay aur….

 

Regs,

Prashant Pandey

 

, " jyotirved " <jyotirved wrote:

>

>

> Shri Prashant Pandeyji.

> Jai Shri Ram!

>

> Pl. recall the long telephonic conversation you had with me a few days back

> regarding several topics including Kemadruma vis-a-vis kalpadruma etc. etc.

>

> I do not think it is proper to have posted those very queries on a forum

> without the telephonic responses that I had given!

>

> In any case, as suggested already, pl. consolidate all your

> research----which is as on date actually all in the realm of speculation or

> at best just a wishful thinking---- and subject it to peer review in proper

> forums instead of making a sounding board of my point of view!

>

> I have also made it clear to you telephonically that of late I have

> minimized my interaction on forums since I have been informed by several

> friends that my mails are cross-posted on all the forums like

> vedic astrology, sohamsa, waves-vedic, om-namah-shivaya-group,

> ancient-indian-astrology etc. etc. with all the " objections " , though I have

> repeated it several time that all those forums have either banned me or i

> have d from them or they just do not let my posts appear there,

> with the result that I do not know as to who is saying what and cannot

> counter any of the points/insinuations those posts may contain!

>

> For instance, Shri Vinay Jha, when he was a member of this ()

> forum, went on repeating that he had confronted me with all the arguments in

> forum about the Surya Sidhanta ayanamsha, and I

> kept on telling him that he must be mistaken! I requested Shri Jha several

> times to post a copy of that very message on so that we could

> discuss things about the Surya Sidhanta ayanamsha, but he just left the

> forum instead! However, A gentleman from vedic astrology forum informed me

> that Shri Jha had reposted that very AIA message and he forwarded it to me

> from AIA itself.

>

> I am posting a copy of Shri Jha's #17107 dt. January 6, 2009, in AIA when

> I had actually left that forum perhaps in January 2008!

>

> Though personal remarks about someone in any forum, who is not a

> member there, is against rules and regulations and can land

> owners/moderators/posters of such forums in a great deal of trouble as per

> US laws, but I do not want to go to such extremes since I have something

> more important to do than to waste my time on such " pursuits " .

>

> As such, I do not want similar situation to continue and have therefore

> curtailed my responses to the extent possible.

>

> Jai Shri Ram!

>

> A K Kaul

>

> *******

> *******

> *****

>

> Copy of # 17107 dt. Jan 6, 09, by Shri Vinay Jha in

> forum:

>

> I read the heated debate about ayanamsha, and was sorry to find a

> supposedly scholarly debated stooping to such low standards. At first,

> I tried to keep away due to the foul language of Mr Kaul, but Mr A K

> Kaul is determined to create a fuss about Vedic Jyotisha, esp about

> Suryasiddhanta (SS henceforth), which he claims to have read but could

> not digest.

>

> I beg apology for my harsh words, but I am helpless. Mr A K Kaul calls

> Mr Sharan and all adherents of Vedic Jyotisha fools. Hence, I feel it

> necessary to bring to light the quality of his erudition. He says :

> " If you take these shlokas , which are supposed to be referring to

> precession/ayanamsha as authentic and from the original Surya

> Sidhanta, then for your information, the current ayanamsha as per the

> Surya Sidhanta is not -24 (minus twenty four) degrees as claimed by

> Lahirwalas nor about 23 degrees as claimed by Shakuntala Devi but +47

> (plus forty seven) degrees! And for your further information, these

> very " trimshat kritva... " shlokas have been quoted by Narada Rishi

> (sic!) in Narad Purana,which is supposed to be an authority for " Vedic

> astrologers " but Gita Press Hindi translator/commentator has

> interpreted those very shlokas in such a manner as to make the

> ayanamsha equal to that of Lahiri! "

>

> Mr Kaul would not value commentaries by pandits, hence I am here using

> the commentary of Christian priest E Burgess :

>

> In a mahayuga of 4320000 years, there are 600 librations/trepidations

> of bha-chakra, one libration in 7200 years, upto a maximum of +/- 27

> degrees. Nearly 3893109 years have passed since this mahayuga began

> (mean mesha samkranti of 2009 AD). Hence, (3893109 / 4320000 =)

> 90.11826263888889 % of a mahayuga has passed. Therefore, out of 600

> librations in a mahayuga, 540.7095833333 librations have completed.

> Leaving aside 540 complete librations, we are left with a fraction

> 0.7095833333, which must be converted into degrees. How ?

>

> Multiply a full cycle with 3/10, you will get 108 degrees. It is one

> full libration. It resembles a sinewave crudely, ie, having a

> positive half cycle of 3600 years and an equal negative half-cycle.

> First, ayanamsha rises from zero to +27 degrees, then gets down to

> zero again. It is positive half-cycle. Then it moves to -27 degrees

> and again to zero. This is negative half cycle.

>

> From the fraction 0.7095833333, let us substract 0.5 for the positive

> half cycle which ended in 499 AD, which was the zero date for

> Aryabhatiya. Thereafter, negative half-cycle behan, which will attain

> its nadir of -27 degrees in AD 2299. We are left with 0.7095833333 -

> 0.5 = 0.2095833333. Since one libration is equal to four quartets of

> 27 degrees each, a total of 108 degrees, 0.2095833333 libration is

> equal to - 22.635 degrees, or 22:38':06 " . it is negative.

>

> Surprisingly, Mr Kaul gets +47 instead of -23 degrees from God knows

> where! An error of merely 70 degrees. No mean achievement by a

> " scholar " who boasts thus : " I have read quite a few sidhants,

> especially the SS with Sanskrit commentary Sudha Varshini by Pt.

> Sudhakar Dwivedi, Hindi commentary by Mahavir Prasad Shrivastav and of

> course, the world famous Burgess translation! All the commentators

> have declared unequivocally that Maya the mlechha had absolutely no

> knowledge of precession. On the other hand, the world famous shlokas

> trimshat kritva yuge bhanam... of the SS are an interpolation of a

> much later date of about tenth century AD! That also has been admitted

> by all the comentators! "

>

> Mr Kaul is being deluded by wrong headed commentators like Reverend

> Burgess or Mahavir Prasad. These commentators could not understand the

> intricate mathematics of SS. Burgess admitted that he could not

> understand the logic behind four samskaras needed to make a true

> planet out of mean. No commentator has ever published the real

> forlulas. Non-believers in SS are denied this supreme knowledge of

> jyotisha. Let Mr Kaul study SS before abusing its " topsy turvy

> ayanamsha " .

>

> Maya was not a mlechchha, but an asura who attained brahma-jnana

> ( " rahasyam brahma sammitam " , cf. last verse of SS) by means of

> tapasya and taught Jyotisha to rishis. Asuras were also part of Indian

> culture, only their religion was anti-Vedic. But Maya worshipped Vedic

> god Surya and obtained, among other shastras, the ULTIMATE knowledge

> about Jyotisha (brahma jnana).

>

> It is not my view, but the initial and final shlokas of SS say so.

> Brahma jnana is not a mere knowledge of planetary positions, otherwise

> evry fool would obtain brahmajana by sitting at a computer or visiting

> a planetarium. Jyotisha is a non-physical science of hidden things

> which guide destinies of men and nations, besodes weather & c. Whether

> SS is a text of brahma jnana or not can be tested only by a braha

> jnani, not by a fool dependent on erroneous commentaries of Reverend

> Burgess or his brown chelas like Mahavie Prasad.

>

> Mr Kaul says : " trimshat kritva yuge bhanam... of the SS are an

> interpolation of a much later date of about tenth century AD! That

> also has been admitted by all the comentators! " He is either lying or

> has no access to the meaning of SS and its commentaries.

>

> It is foolish to believe that the concept of ayanamsha is a later

> invention. What modern commentators are failing to recognize is the

> fact that ayanamsha has nothing to do with precession of equinoxes.

> The latter has no relevance in Vedic Jyotisha based upon ancient texts

> like SS. Manjula wrote about precession. But SS has no use of it,

> because SS has nothing to do with the material world. Its grahas are

> deities of bhuvaloka, which could be seen by Maya only after tapasya.

> Proof of Vedic Jyotisha lies in the efficacy of its predictive part :

> phalita. Unfortunately, materialists are refusing to accept the

> existence of a bhuvaloka of deities, and are hoping to get benefits of

> jyotisha at the same time! There are a lot of persons who use

> physical astronomy in Ganita-Jyotisha, and Parashara of Jaimini in

> Phalita, but such a " scientific " jyotisha is neither science nor jyotisha.

>

> I request Mr Kaul and others to stop abusing Surya Siddhanta and test

> its efficacy not by comparing it with physical astronomy but by

> testing the predictive results according to BPHS & c. Lahirians are

> destroying Vedic Jyotisha by killing its original Ganita, which has

> made Phalita a gambling, resulting in a supposed need to reform Phlita

> as well !

>

> Aryabhatiya is a special text mixing tantra method of computing from

> yuga's start with karana method of computing from nearest important

> phenomena, which was zero ayanamsha in 499 AD. The karana tables of

> Aryabhatiya have been lost, hence computing merely on the basis of the

> extant Aryabhatiya gives highly inaccurate values for any epoch. It is

> not a coincidence that Aryabhatiya uses the year of zero ayanamsha.

>

> His insistence that ayanamsha was a medieval invention means that real

> jyotisha started in medieval period. What Mr Kaul refuses to see is

> that without ayanamsha, it will be impossible to compute sunrise,

> ishtakaal, lagna (ascendant) and twelve bhaavas, declension, etc.

>

> SS has two aspects : Saurpaksha and Drikpaksha. First is the

> mathematics of bhuvaloka needed in astrology, second deals with

> physical world. Both aspects of SS were in full bloom, but due to

> uselessness of Drikpaksha (ie, physical astronomy), its manuscripts

> were not preserved. But all is not lost. All major astronomical

> constants of modern astronomy can be deduced by means of Saurpakshiya

> mathematics, without any obcervation of heavenly phenomena. Salient

> points of this Vedic Science was published in Hindi three years ago,

> but is now our of print. It is being translated.

>

> Here, I am giving a simple instance of the magic of Suryasiddanta.

> Paramkranti (max. declension) has a value of 24 degrees exactly in SS.

> Due to a 12 degree shift between Saurpaksha and Drikpaksha ecliptic

> planes, you need to multiply Sine24 with Cos12 (or Sin78) degrees, and

> then take the arc of resultant, which is the maximum Drikpakshiya

> declension of modern astronomy , 23:26':37.48 " . Now-a-days, nutation

> is negative. Substract nutation, and you will get absolutely accurate

> value of declension of modern physical astronomy. So simple, yet so

> superb a science. Does the present generation of mankind deserve this

> divine gift (Suryasiddanta) ?

>

> But we must not use this drikpakshiya value in astrology, otherwise we

> will get wrong results in Phalita. That is what the likes of all

> followeres of Lahiri are doing today.

>

> Suryasiddanta is infinite. It can give Mr Kaul more than he can ever

> imagine. But not if he abuses its " topsy-turvy " things which he does

> not understand, as is clear from his errors in computations shown above.

>

> Please take my words in a positive manner. Learn Suryasiddanta before

> abusing it. The published text is merely a tip of the iceberg.

> Suryasiddanta is " RAHASYAM brahma-sammitam " , which has never been

> given to a person who is not under an oath to observe lifelong

> brahmacharya. There are other conditions as well, but brahmacharya is

> the first condition for getting " RAHASYAM brahma-sammitam " . However,

> materialists believe in nothing beyond this material world of

> Phenomena (of five senses), they are blind to the Suryasiddhantic

> world of Noumena.

>

> The Vedanga Jyotisha dating of 1400 BCE cited by Mr Kaul will be dealt

> with separately, to show the mathematical ineptitude of Colebrooke and

> his chelas. There is no real basis for 1400 BC, whatsoever.

>

> For the first time in my life, I have taught some Jyotisha to an

> abuser of this divine science, for which I will have to undergo some

> penance. That penance will come in the form of abuses from Mr Kaul and

> others, for which I am eagerly waiting, with a lot of love and sincerity.

>

> -VJ

>

>

>

> , " prashant " <praspandey@> wrote:

> >

> > < Several decades back I was as eager as any jyotishi can be to find not

> only Mesha, Vrisha etc. astrological rashis but also Dasha-bhuktis and even

> Kemadruma etc. yogas in the Vedas! >

> >

> > It is good that you didn't say this time that Kemadruma is of Greek origin

> like David Pingree, great Historian of WEST, said, but this man was not

> aware that in Shatapatha Brahmna so many times Druma and KalpaDruma word had

> been used, and Kemadruma is opposite of Kalpadruma.

> >

> > On the basis of argument that, Kemadruma is of Greek origin he said that

> BPHS is copy of Yavana Jatakam. Though he also gave list of 8-9 words which

> he said that those words are of Greek origin but all those words were

> already coined in Sanskrit in much ancient time.

> >

> > Druma and Kalpa Druma word had been already coined in 3'rd Millenia BCE as

> evident from VERSES from ShataPatha Brahmna.

> >

> > So now whole argument is reverse(as the base of argument was only on the

> basis of origin of 9-10 words) ie that word went in Greek word from India,

> So Yavana Jatakam had been copied from India and went to Greek world.

> >

> > Ha Ha Ha Ha...

> >

> > Atri Rishi was aware of eclipse cycle and Hymns about it (technique of

> eclipse is not mentioned in Rig Veda) are in Rig Veda and that transferred

> to Assyrians (Descendant of Atri, Brighu and Kashyap Rishi) and that cycle

> was used by Hipparchus in 2'nd Cent BCE ,

> >

> > Dear Kaulji, Could you please tell us why Atri Rishi didn't describe about

> the whole technique of eclipse cycle in length in Rig Veda itself. Where is

> whole text ?? Why not cycle is mentioned in VEDAS like KemaDruma yoga why he

> only gave hint..

> >

> > I think now you got the answer about KemaDruma.

> >

> > < that to ascribe predictive gimmicks to the Vedic Seers is the greatest

> injustice that can be done to them. >

> >

> > Should i show what Vedic seers said?? Keep aside Manu Smriti...

> >

> > Should I also show single-single planets in Rig Veda itself and also

> characteristics of those planets described in Rig-Veda itself which are now

> being used around the world.

> >

> > Kaulji, one question for you, could you please show even a single copy of

> Rig Veda of first Millenia AD (I asked of AD not of BCE)

> >

> > Regs,

> > Prashant Pandey

> >

> > CC:- Koenraad Elst

> >

> > , " Krishen " jyotirved@ wrote:

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Shri Utkal Panigrahiji,

> > >

> > > Jai Shri Ram!

> > >

> > > Really glad that you have started going through the Vedas even if it is

> > > only to prove me wrong!

> > >

> > > I have just one request: Pl. donot be elated at your confirming your own

> > > misconceptions!

> > >

> > > Pl. study Sayana Bhashya of the mantras that you have referred to, and

> > > you will see it for yourself that it is at all not astrological signs

> > > like Vrishaba and Mithuna and Kanya that are meant in those mantras!

> > >

> > > Kripaya arth ka narth mat keejiye!

> > >

> > > Jai Shri Ram!

> > >

> > > A K Kaul

> > >

> > > PS

> > >

> > > Several decades back I was as eager as any jyotishi can be to find not

> > > only Mesha, Vrisha etc. astrological rashis but also Dasha-bhuktis and

> > > even Kemadruma etc. yogas in the Vedas! But by and by I could realize

> > > the truth, which you will also realize sooner or later, that to ascribe

> > > predictive gimmicks to the Vedic Seers is the greatest injustice that

> > > can be done to them.

> > >

> > > AKK

> > >

> > > , " utkal.panigrahi "

> > > <utkal.panigrahi@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Group,

> > > >

> > > > I m elated at my luck that God made me instrumental to prove that our

> > > > sages discovered rasi names that we are using today.

> > > >

> > > > Pls find downloadable PDF version of Rikveda with reference to Rasi

> > > > Names

> > > >

> > > > http://www.sanskritweb.org/rigveda/rv08-082.pdf

> > > > <http://www.sanskritweb.org/rigveda/rv08-082.pdf>

> > > > 93:1 - Vrisabha

> > > >

> > > > http://www.sanskritweb.org/rigveda/rv03-030.pdf

> > > > <http://www.sanskritweb.org/rigveda/rv03-030.pdf>

> > > >

> > > > 39.3 - Mithuna

> > > >

> > > > http://www.sanskritweb.org/rigveda/rv06-048.pdf

> > > > <http://www.sanskritweb.org/rigveda/rv06-048.pdf>

> > > > 6:49:7- Kanya

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > The allegations made by Mr Kaul, Satya Praksh, Bharadwj, stupid

> > > Srinads

> > > > etc is found a falsity, Rest of the world learnt Jyotish from us

> > > > including Greek and Babylonians.

> > > >

> > > > Now, The debate ends, I Believe, Mr. Kaul will accept that his

> > > > proposition was wrong, though I admire him for his study,

> > > unfortunately,

> > > > He had not done complete study and out of excitement happen to claim

> > > > that vedic sages have not been using Rasi Names and we Indian borrowed

> > > > Rasi Names from Greeks etc.

> > > >

> > > > Truth Wins Always, The Proof is discovered !!

> > > >

> > > > I am thankful to God that he gave me resources, energy and direction

> > > > otherwise it w'd have taken months and years in locating Rasi Names as

> > > > in the last posting I said that I m going to begin study of Taitriya

> > > > Samhita and Boudhayana Sutra, but, As god wanted to bring truth within

> > > > hours, everything is arranged in couple of hours.

> > > >

> > > > Spirituality, Honesty and Courage is Key to Jyotish, Perhapse, God

> > > > wanted to prove it.

> > > >

> > > > Best Regards,

> > > > Utkal.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

Shri Prashant Pandeyji,

 

Jai Shri Ram!

 

<should I show similarities between Assyrians and Lagdhas VJ's calendar…>

 

1. What is the date of the Rik Jyotisham according to you and why?

 

2. Do you mean to say that the Vedanga Jyotisham is an Assyrian work

actually and not by Acharya Lagadha? Pl. give proofs in support of your

answer.

 

3. What is the most ancient indigenous astronomical work available in India

as on date according to you on the basis of which Vedic calendar was

prepared?

 

 

 

< You have manipulated many things and gave birth to Madhu Madhav before to

NKS months and tried to play with the NKS months, read all documents again

and see the fault…>

 

1. Do you mean to say the names of Madhu, Madhava etc. months as given

in the Yujurveda and other Vedic lore are manipulations by Vedic rishis of

some Mesopotamian calendar?

2. Since the Vedanga Jyotisha has discussed Krittika, Rohini etc.

nakshatras also, do you mean to say even those nakshatras also are of

MESOPOTAMIAN origin, since the entire VJ is a manipulation of some original

MESOPOTAMIAN work according to you?

 

 

 

 

 

< Please substantiate your wishful speculation by Rig Veda only !>

 

What is wishful speculation about the following statement that you have

quoted from me, “On the other hand, a Vedic Vasanti Navratra always starts

with the first New Moon after the start of Vasanta Ritu, since the

" shortfall " of eleven days in a lunar cycle of twelve months vis-à-vis a

solar year is compensated by an adhika-masa every 32/33 solar months. This

adhika masa concept is in fact found in the ancient most work viz. the

Rigveda " Veda maso dhrita vrato dwadasha prajavatah, veda ya upajayate "

(Rigveda 1/25/8) i.e. " Varuna knows the twelve months, it also knows the

thirteenth (adhika) month " .

 

1. Is the start of lunar Vasanti Navratra with the first New Moon after

the start of Vasanta Ritu a “wishful speculation”? When should it start

according to you and why?

 

2. Is the Rigvedic mantra of an adhika (thirteenth) masa vis-à-vis twelve

solar months a “wishful speculation” according to you?

 

3. Do you mean to say that the Vedic Seers were not aware of such phenomena

like an adhika or kshyaya masa etc.? Do you mean to say even that concept

was a manipulation by some Indian Acharya of some MESOPOTAMINAN phenomena?

 

 

 

< Show how you got the figure of 11 !>

 

Do you want me to teach you fundamentals of lunar vis-à-vis solar “years”?

 

 

 

< Pl do write about the response what you gave to me.>

 

You are really making surprising statements! On the one hand you say that

the Vedanga Jyotisha is based on MESOPOTAMIAN calendar as said by David

Pingree, but at the same time you say that all the sunapha, anapaha,

durudhura, panaphara, aapollima etc. etc. Greek words are of Indian origin,

because there is a word kalpadruma in some of the shastras! Thus according

to you, Acharya Lagadha was a manipulator and he manipulated the

Mesopotamian calendar to make it Indian, but the Greek words of a Greek

astrological work viz. Sphudiwaja’s Yavanajatakam are of “Vedic origin”

according to you!

 

Anybody can see it for himself as to who is doing the real manipulation!

 

 

 

< Kaulji the forum which you are suggesting, i have already read msgs from

archive and know what they know, I know how much they know that is why you

didn't see, Koenraad was living in dreams with his views>

 

I have not suggested to you any forum in particular nor have I suggested

you any particular authors. If you have any disagreements with the views of

different authors whom you have named, you may as well discuss those issues

with them, instead of with me. You are already a member of

hinducivilization and indiaarchaeology etc. forums. Why don’t you highlight

your points of disagreement with them on those forums since they alone can

answer your questions about their views.

 

 

 

BTW, what is your view about the Puranas like Srimad Bhagavata, Vishnu

Purana, Shiva Mahapurana etc. etc., since the Hindu calendar that is being

followed these days is supposed to be an all embracing one like the Vedas,

the Vedanga Jyotisha, the Puranas and dharmashatras etc. apart from

geographical phenomena like the two solstices and equinoxes etc. etc.? Do

you think that we should include the Pauranic parameters in the Hindu

calendar or are even those parameters are manipulation of some MESOPOTAMIAN

work according to you?

 

Jai Shri Ram!

 

A K Kaul

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

, " prashant " <praspandey wrote:

 

 

 

-< In any case, as suggested already, pl. consolidate all your

research----which is as on date actually all in the realm of speculation or

at

best just a wishful thinking >

 

When person starts loosing ground he makes such comments.

 

Why you don't take up challenge and write on those mails and show that yes

your

base of calendar making is correct and show that it is not MESOPOTAMIAN

CALENDAR

as said by David Pingree, should I show similarities between Assyrians and

Lagdhas VJ's calendar…

 

You have manipulated many things and gave birth to Madhu Madhav before to

NKS

months and tried to play with the NKS months, read all documents again and

see

the fault…

 

In Message #24998, you wrote as following :-

 

********************************************************************

On the other hand, a Vedic Vasanti Navratra always starts with the first New

Moon after the start of Vasanta Ritu, since the " shortfall " of eleven days

in a

lunar cycle of twelve months vis-à-vis a solar year is compensated by an

adhika-masa every 32/33 solar months. This adhika masa concept is in fact

found

in the ancient most work viz. the Rigveda " Veda maso dhrita vrato dwadasha

prajavatah, veda ya upajayate " (Rigveda 1/25/8) i.e. " Varuna

knows the twelve months, it also knows the thirteenth (adhika) month " .

*******************************************************************

 

Please substantiate your wishful speculation by Rig Veda only !

 

Show how you got the figure of 11 !

 

Such type magic Subash Kak, You and R N Iyengar can do ! Am i wrong ??

 

< Pl. recall the long telephonic conversation you had with me a few days

back

regarding several topics including Kemadruma vis-a-vis kalpadruma etc. etc.

I do

not think it is proper to have posted those very queries on a forum without

the

telephonic responses that I had given! >

 

Pl do write about the response what you gave to me.

 

< and subject it to peer review in proper forums instead of making a

sounding

board of my point of view! >

 

Who will do Peer review, yes I know you are doing it brilliantly, BTW why

Koenraad , most recognized author, could not spoke even a single word

instead of

only abuses.

 

 

Kaulji the forum which you are suggesting, i have already read msgs from

archive

and know what they know, I know how much they know that is why you didn't

see,

Koenraad was living in dreams with his views

 

Shayad itna kaphi hai….Phir likheyngay aur….

 

Regs,

Prashant Pandey

 

 

</post?postID=6ruFESv_VZCOwjjq8y7k

bhPhPQYbZtJYSL05s6DERQZveuOp5QTUeMM1NRQp7hNibb3hp5JU9dTMKArhAkcNNZu4Dackmw>

, " jyotirved " <jyotirved wrote:

>

>

> Shri Prashant Pandeyji.

> Jai Shri Ram!

>

> Pl. recall the long telephonic conversation you had with me a few days

back

> regarding several topics including Kemadruma vis-a-vis kalpadruma etc.

etc.

>

> I do not think it is proper to have posted those very queries on a forum

> without the telephonic responses that I had given!

>

> In any case, as suggested already, pl. consolidate all your

> research----which is as on date actually all in the realm of speculation

or

> at best just a wishful thinking---- and subject it to peer review in

proper

> forums instead of making a sounding board of my point of view!

>

> I have also made it clear to you telephonically that of late I have

> minimized my interaction on forums since I have been informed by several

> friends that my mails are cross-posted on all the forums like

> vedic astrology, sohamsa, waves-vedic, om-namah-shivaya-group,

> ancient-indian-astrology etc. etc. with all the " objections " , though I

have

> repeated it several time that all those forums have either banned me or i

> have d from them or they just do not let my posts appear there,

> with the result that I do not know as to who is saying what and cannot

> counter any of the points/insinuations those posts may contain!

>

> For instance, Shri Vinay Jha, when he was a member of this ()

> forum, went on repeating that he had confronted me with all the arguments

in

> forum about the Surya Sidhanta ayanamsha, and I

> kept on telling him that he must be mistaken! I requested Shri Jha several

> times to post a copy of that very message on so that we could

> discuss things about the Surya Sidhanta ayanamsha, but he just left the

> forum instead! However, A gentleman from vedic astrology forum informed me

> that Shri Jha had reposted that very AIA message and he forwarded it to me

> from AIA itself.

>

> I am posting a copy of Shri Jha's #17107 dt. January 6, 2009, in AIA when

> I had actually left that forum perhaps in January 2008!

>

> Though personal remarks about someone in any forum, who is not a

> member there, is against rules and regulations and can land

> owners/moderators/posters of such forums in a great deal of trouble as per

> US laws, but I do not want to go to such extremes since I have something

> more important to do than to waste my time on such " pursuits " .

>

> As such, I do not want similar situation to continue and have therefore

> curtailed my responses to the extent possible.

>

> Jai Shri Ram!

>

> A K Kaul

>

> *******

> *******

> *****

>

> Copy of # 17107 dt. Jan 6, 09, by Shri Vinay Jha in

> forum:yotishGroup , " prashant "

<praspandey wrote:

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Respected Shri Kaulji,

 

< You are really making surprising statements! On the one hand you say that

the Vedanga Jyotisha is based on MESOPOTAMIAN calendar as said by David

Pingree, but at the same time you say that all the sunapha, anapaha,

durudhura, panaphara, aapollima etc. etc. Greek words are of Indian origin,

because there is a word kalpadruma in some of the shastras! Thus according

to you, Acharya Lagadha was a manipulator and he manipulated the

Mesopotamian calendar to make it Indian, but the Greek words of a Greek

astrological work viz. Sphudiwaja’s Yavanajatakam are of “Vedic originâ€

according to you! >

 

Though I was a toddler and now I feel that I am running fast and for its entire

development, you are behind the scene, I will remain humbly obliged of yours.

And I am looking forward for your guidance for the rest of learning.

 

Kaulji, you have one confusion, let me clear that out, before that telephonic

talk (on Saturday), I had already posted that query here on Friday but that

appeared on Monday. I am moderated member here. I am on groups for some more

time after that will disappear but before that I want to expose some lies as I

have analyzed things of Puppets of Christian Missionaries.

 

I would like to take this opportunity to expose lies of David Pingree, great

Historian of West University and puppet of Christian Missionaries. I already

said that I know how much knows those professors of Harvard, Cambridge, Oxford,

Michigan (West Univ, Centers of Christian Missionaries) etc etc…

 

Now we should come to the main points …..

 

1)      Apoklima – It is totally Sanskrit word and root of that word is

:- 

 

apakR^I à it stands for “to harmâ€Â  and it has been used in Shri

Valmiki’s Ramayan (I said Shri Valmiki’s Ramayan not Raman by Sri Tulsidas

Ji), Valmiki Ramayan predates Greeks influence on Bharat in any respect ….I

think there should be no controversy on it …

 

Munda Tribes also used this word for Tantras like of Chamunda Devi, She stands

for Destruction and sits on the Axis of Earth…

 

Mantra for her worship is as below:-

 

“OM EIM HRIM KLIMA CHAMUNDAYEI “

 

And Mundas in India definitely predates to Greeks as they have been indigenous

of Indian land only. And their knowledge of Tantras are with Bengalis

now-a-days, Bengalis are the best persons of doing Tantras…

                              

Every astrologer on this earth knows what the meaning of Apoklima is, does it

match with the root in Sanskrit language …

 

2)      durudhura – It is also completely Sanskrit word, it has come in

existence by clubbing 2 words ie dhuraa and dharaNi (dhara)

 

Both words have already been used in Rig Veda.

 

I think Pingree’s Rig Veda post-dates Greeks existence …. Ha Ha Ha Ha …

 

Dhura means Axis and Dhara means Earth. Axis of earth means axis where every

things get balanced out…

 

And all astrologers would be aware of the meaning of durudhura, used in

astrology ….

 

Interesting thing Queen of Persia(Wife of Chandra Gupta Maurya) was having same

name Durdhara and that queen was daughter of Seleucus, Seleucus was having 2-3

wives and Durdhara was daughter from Persian Queen.

 

Same word has also been used in Valmiki Ramayan.

 

 

3)      anapaha – It is basically anabham word but in Hindi we write

anapha. This word has come in existence by clubbing two words for Sanskrit ie .

anantaraM + Bham

 

‘anantaraM’ Meaning of that word is, after. Word ‘Bham’ has been used

for NKS and Signs

 

Both words have been used in Rig - Veda and its brahmnas.

 

And all astrologers would know meaning of anapha

 

4)      sunapha – this word is opposite of anapha

 

5)      Kemadruma – its explanation I have already given, This word has

already been used in Brahmna of VEDAS, Shatapatha Brahmna…

 

This word is opposite of Kalpa Druma

 

Druma means Tree, Kalpa Druma is magical Tree which fulfills all wishes and Kema

Druma yoga is used for Horoscope, it means the native who is fruitless and

remain dependent on others for whole life.

 

Kaulji, Greeks were also influenced by Sanatan Dharma and Romans made them like

that…. There is very interesting foolproof theory with me, I will write

sometime…

 

Alexander’s wife was daughter of Persian dynasty (Darius the great), Cousins

of Hindus…Basically Greeks at that time were totally under influence of

Zoroasterian religion….

 

But Christians want to burry the truth as all Europenas will get to know that

their ancestors were of Sanathan Dharma and later they were converted by swords

to Christinity…

 

So they are scared and now abusing Hindus and want to finish last remnant of

that great Religion…

 

Regs,

Prashant Pandey

 

PS :- Kaulji, i am not countering you and i also know, you are also doing good

Job for dharma but what we can do. controversies started because with

development of time. Sanathan Dharma is 15,000 yeras old(though nobody can

estimate its age)and its is alot time for development of many indigenous

thinkings...

 

 --- On Fri, 18/12/09, jyotirved <jyotirved wrote:

 

 

jyotirved <jyotirved

Re: Festivals - Nakshathra and Rashi - Samveda Mantra !!

 

Cc: hinducalendar

Friday, 18 December, 2009, 4:32 PM

 

 

 

 

 

 

Shri Prashant Pandeyji,

 

Jai Shri Ram!

 

<should I show similarities between Assyrians and Lagdhas VJ's calendar…>

 

1. What is the date of the Rik Jyotisham according to you and why?

 

2. Do you mean to say that the Vedanga Jyotisham is an Assyrian work

actually and not by Acharya Lagadha? Pl. give proofs in support of your

answer.

 

3. What is the most ancient indigenous astronomical work available in India

as on date according to you on the basis of which Vedic calendar was

prepared?

 

< You have manipulated many things and gave birth to Madhu Madhav before to

NKS months and tried to play with the NKS months, read all documents again

and see the fault…>

 

1. Do you mean to say the names of Madhu, Madhava etc. months as given

in the Yujurveda and other Vedic lore are manipulations by Vedic rishis of

some Mesopotamian calendar?

2. Since the Vedanga Jyotisha has discussed Krittika, Rohini etc.

nakshatras also, do you mean to say even those nakshatras also are of

MESOPOTAMIAN origin, since the entire VJ is a manipulation of some original

MESOPOTAMIAN work according to you?

 

< Please substantiate your wishful speculation by Rig Veda only !>

 

What is wishful speculation about the following statement that you have

quoted from me, “On the other hand, a Vedic Vasanti Navratra always starts

with the first New Moon after the start of Vasanta Ritu, since the

" shortfall " of eleven days in a lunar cycle of twelve months vis-à-vis a

solar year is compensated by an adhika-masa every 32/33 solar months. This

adhika masa concept is in fact found in the ancient most work viz. the

Rigveda " Veda maso dhrita vrato dwadasha prajavatah, veda ya upajayate "

(Rigveda 1/25/8) i.e. " Varuna knows the twelve months, it also knows the

thirteenth (adhika) month " .

 

1. Is the start of lunar Vasanti Navratra with the first New Moon after

the start of Vasanta Ritu a “wishful speculation� When should it start

according to you and why?

 

2. Is the Rigvedic mantra of an adhika (thirteenth) masa vis-à-vis twelve

solar months a “wishful speculation†according to you?

 

3. Do you mean to say that the Vedic Seers were not aware of such phenomena

like an adhika or kshyaya masa etc.? Do you mean to say even that concept

was a manipulation by some Indian Acharya of some MESOPOTAMINAN phenomena?

 

< Show how you got the figure of 11 !>

 

Do you want me to teach you fundamentals of lunar vis-à-vis solar “years�

 

< Pl do write about the response what you gave to me.>

 

You are really making surprising statements! On the one hand you say that

the Vedanga Jyotisha is based on MESOPOTAMIAN calendar as said by David

Pingree, but at the same time you say that all the sunapha, anapaha,

durudhura, panaphara, aapollima etc. etc. Greek words are of Indian origin,

because there is a word kalpadruma in some of the shastras! Thus according

to you, Acharya Lagadha was a manipulator and he manipulated the

Mesopotamian calendar to make it Indian, but the Greek words of a Greek

astrological work viz. Sphudiwaja’s Yavanajatakam are of “Vedic originâ€

according to you!

 

Anybody can see it for himself as to who is doing the real manipulation!

 

< Kaulji the forum which you are suggesting, i have already read msgs from

archive and know what they know, I know how much they know that is why you

didn't see, Koenraad was living in dreams with his views>

 

I have not suggested to you any forum in particular nor have I suggested

you any particular authors. If you have any disagreements with the views of

different authors whom you have named, you may as well discuss those issues

with them, instead of with me. You are already a member of

hinducivilization and indiaarchaeology etc. forums. Why don’t you highlight

your points of disagreement with them on those forums since they alone can

answer your questions about their views.

 

BTW, what is your view about the Puranas like Srimad Bhagavata, Vishnu

Purana, Shiva Mahapurana etc. etc., since the Hindu calendar that is being

followed these days is supposed to be an all embracing one like the Vedas,

the Vedanga Jyotisha, the Puranas and dharmashatras etc. apart from

geographical phenomena like the two solstices and equinoxes etc. etc.? Do

you think that we should include the Pauranic parameters in the Hindu

calendar or are even those parameters are manipulation of some MESOPOTAMIAN

work according to you?

 

Jai Shri Ram!

 

A K Kaul

 

, " prashant " <praspandey@ ...> wrote:

 

-< In any case, as suggested already, pl. consolidate all your

research---- which is as on date actually all in the realm of speculation or

at

best just a wishful thinking >

 

When person starts loosing ground he makes such comments.

 

Why you don't take up challenge and write on those mails and show that yes

your

base of calendar making is correct and show that it is not MESOPOTAMIAN

CALENDAR

as said by David Pingree, should I show similarities between Assyrians and

Lagdhas VJ's calendar…

 

You have manipulated many things and gave birth to Madhu Madhav before to

NKS

months and tried to play with the NKS months, read all documents again and

see

the fault…

 

In Message #24998, you wrote as following :-

 

************ ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* **

On the other hand, a Vedic Vasanti Navratra always starts with the first New

Moon after the start of Vasanta Ritu, since the " shortfall " of eleven days

in a

lunar cycle of twelve months vis-à-vis a solar year is compensated by an

adhika-masa every 32/33 solar months. This adhika masa concept is in fact

found

in the ancient most work viz. the Rigveda " Veda maso dhrita vrato dwadasha

prajavatah, veda ya upajayate " (Rigveda 1/25/8) i.e. " Varuna

knows the twelve months, it also knows the thirteenth (adhika) month " .

************ ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* *

 

Please substantiate your wishful speculation by Rig Veda only !

 

Show how you got the figure of 11 !

 

Such type magic Subash Kak, You and R N Iyengar can do ! Am i wrong ??

 

< Pl. recall the long telephonic conversation you had with me a few days

back

regarding several topics including Kemadruma vis-a-vis kalpadruma etc. etc.

I do

not think it is proper to have posted those very queries on a forum without

the

telephonic responses that I had given! >

 

Pl do write about the response what you gave to me.

 

< and subject it to peer review in proper forums instead of making a

sounding

board of my point of view! >

 

Who will do Peer review, yes I know you are doing it brilliantly, BTW why

Koenraad , most recognized author, could not spoke even a single word

instead of

only abuses.

 

Kaulji the forum which you are suggesting, i have already read msgs from

archive

and know what they know, I know how much they know that is why you didn't

see,

Koenraad was living in dreams with his views

 

Shayad itna kaphi hai….Phir likheyngay aur….

 

Regs,

Prashant Pandey

 

 

<http://groups. / group/JyotishGro up/post?postID= 6ruFESv_VZCOwjjq

8y7k

bhPhPQYbZtJYSL05s6D ERQZveuOp5QTUeMM 1NRQp7hNibb3hp5J U9dTMKArhAkcNNZu 4Dackmw>

, " jyotirved " <jyotirved@. ..> wrote:

>

>

> Shri Prashant Pandeyji.

> Jai Shri Ram!

>

> Pl. recall the long telephonic conversation you had with me a few days

back

> regarding several topics including Kemadruma vis-a-vis kalpadruma etc.

etc.

>

> I do not think it is proper to have posted those very queries on a forum

> without the telephonic responses that I had given!

>

> In any case, as suggested already, pl. consolidate all your

> research---- which is as on date actually all in the realm of speculation

or

> at best just a wishful thinking---- and subject it to peer review in

proper

> forums instead of making a sounding board of my point of view!

>

> I have also made it clear to you telephonically that of late I have

> minimized my interaction on forums since I have been informed by several

> friends that my mails are cross-posted on all the forums like

> vedic astrology, sohamsa, waves-vedic, om-namah-shivaya- group,

> ancient-indian- astrology etc. etc. with all the " objections " , though I

have

> repeated it several time that all those forums have either banned me or i

> have d from them or they just do not let my posts appear there,

> with the result that I do not know as to who is saying what and cannot

> counter any of the points/insinuations those posts may contain!

>

> For instance, Shri Vinay Jha, when he was a member of this ()

> forum, went on repeating that he had confronted me with all the arguments

in

> ancient_indian_ astrology forum about the Surya Sidhanta ayanamsha, and I

> kept on telling him that he must be mistaken! I requested Shri Jha several

> times to post a copy of that very message on so that we could

> discuss things about the Surya Sidhanta ayanamsha, but he just left the

> forum instead! However, A gentleman from vedic astrology forum informed me

> that Shri Jha had reposted that very AIA message and he forwarded it to me

> from AIA itself.

>

> I am posting a copy of Shri Jha's #17107 dt. January 6, 2009, in AIA when

> I had actually left that forum perhaps in January 2008!

>

> Though personal remarks about someone in any forum, who is not a

> member there, is against rules and regulations and can land

> owners/moderators/ posters of such forums in a great deal of trouble as per

> US laws, but I do not want to go to such extremes since I have something

> more important to do than to waste my time on such " pursuits " .

>

> As such, I do not want similar situation to continue and have therefore

> curtailed my responses to the extent possible.

>

> Jai Shri Ram!

>

> A K Kaul

>

> *******

> *******

> *****

>

> Copy of # 17107 dt. Jan 6, 09, by Shri Vinay Jha in

> ancient_indian_ astrology forum:yotishGroup, " prashant "

<praspandey@ ...> wrote:

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Shri Kaulji,

 

**********************

< 1. Is the start of lunar Vasanti Navratra with the first New Moon after

the start of Vasanta Ritu a " wishful speculation " ? When should it start

according to you and why? >

**********************

 

There is no word Vasant in Rig Veda !

 

Magha months (Shukla Panchami) celebrations of Rig-Veda got transformed in

Vasant Panchami after import of Madhu Madhav in Sanskrit from some country(Like

you say as Aries, Taurus are not in Rig veda so those are import from some

country)….

 

I am quite sad because our Magha NKS deities festivals would be snatched by

later interpolations based on Madhu Madhav … from some other VEDAS of later

dates….

 

Lagdhajis (Now modern Lagdhaji of VJ, Mr Kaul) calendar is playing with

Rig-Vedic NKS deities (I really love NKS deities of Rig-Vaidic time), but I am

very sad !

 

**********************

< < Show how you got the figure of 11 !>

 

Do you want me to teach you fundamentals of lunar vis-à-vis solar " years " ? >

**********************

 

Kindly teach me how you got magical figure 11 !

 

I am very eager to hear from you! Kindly do so, please take help from following

Verses of Rig Veda :-

 

A) Rig Veda - 1.164.48

 

48 Twelve are the fellies, and the wheel is single; three are the naves. What

man hath understood it?

Therein are set together spokes three hundred and sixty, which in nowise can be

loosened.

 

B) Rig Veda - 1.164.11

 

11 Formed with twelve spokes, by length of time, unweakened, rolls round the

heaven this wheel of during Order.

Herein established, joined in pairs together, seven hundred Sons and twenty

stand, O Agni.

 

Namastey Shri Kaulji with Dhayavad,

Prashant Pandey

 

 

, " jyotirved " <jyotirved wrote:

>

> Shri Prashant Pandeyji,

>

> Jai Shri Ram!

>

> <should I show similarities between Assyrians and Lagdhas VJ's calendar…>

>

> 1. What is the date of the Rik Jyotisham according to you and why?

>

> 2. Do you mean to say that the Vedanga Jyotisham is an Assyrian work

> actually and not by Acharya Lagadha? Pl. give proofs in support of your

> answer.

>

> 3. What is the most ancient indigenous astronomical work available in India

> as on date according to you on the basis of which Vedic calendar was

> prepared?

>

>

>

> < You have manipulated many things and gave birth to Madhu Madhav before to

> NKS months and tried to play with the NKS months, read all documents again

> and see the fault…>

>

> 1. Do you mean to say the names of Madhu, Madhava etc. months as given

> in the Yujurveda and other Vedic lore are manipulations by Vedic rishis of

> some Mesopotamian calendar?

> 2. Since the Vedanga Jyotisha has discussed Krittika, Rohini etc.

> nakshatras also, do you mean to say even those nakshatras also are of

> MESOPOTAMIAN origin, since the entire VJ is a manipulation of some original

> MESOPOTAMIAN work according to you?

>

>

>

>

>

> < Please substantiate your wishful speculation by Rig Veda only !>

>

> What is wishful speculation about the following statement that you have

> quoted from me, " On the other hand, a Vedic Vasanti Navratra always starts

> with the first New Moon after the start of Vasanta Ritu, since the

> " shortfall " of eleven days in a lunar cycle of twelve months vis-à-vis a

> solar year is compensated by an adhika-masa every 32/33 solar months. This

> adhika masa concept is in fact found in the ancient most work viz. the

> Rigveda " Veda maso dhrita vrato dwadasha prajavatah, veda ya upajayate "

> (Rigveda 1/25/8) i.e. " Varuna knows the twelve months, it also knows the

> thirteenth (adhika) month " .

>

> 1. Is the start of lunar Vasanti Navratra with the first New Moon after

> the start of Vasanta Ritu a " wishful speculation " ? When should it start

> according to you and why?

>

> 2. Is the Rigvedic mantra of an adhika (thirteenth) masa vis-à-vis twelve

> solar months a " wishful speculation " according to you?

>

> 3. Do you mean to say that the Vedic Seers were not aware of such phenomena

> like an adhika or kshyaya masa etc.? Do you mean to say even that concept

> was a manipulation by some Indian Acharya of some MESOPOTAMINAN phenomena?

>

>

>

> < Show how you got the figure of 11 !>

>

> Do you want me to teach you fundamentals of lunar vis-à-vis solar " years " ?

>

>

>

> < Pl do write about the response what you gave to me.>

>

> You are really making surprising statements! On the one hand you say that

> the Vedanga Jyotisha is based on MESOPOTAMIAN calendar as said by David

> Pingree, but at the same time you say that all the sunapha, anapaha,

> durudhura, panaphara, aapollima etc. etc. Greek words are of Indian origin,

> because there is a word kalpadruma in some of the shastras! Thus according

> to you, Acharya Lagadha was a manipulator and he manipulated the

> Mesopotamian calendar to make it Indian, but the Greek words of a Greek

> astrological work viz. Sphudiwaja's Yavanajatakam are of " Vedic origin "

> according to you!

>

> Anybody can see it for himself as to who is doing the real manipulation!

>

>

>

> < Kaulji the forum which you are suggesting, i have already read msgs from

> archive and know what they know, I know how much they know that is why you

> didn't see, Koenraad was living in dreams with his views>

>

> I have not suggested to you any forum in particular nor have I suggested

> you any particular authors. If you have any disagreements with the views of

> different authors whom you have named, you may as well discuss those issues

> with them, instead of with me. You are already a member of

> hinducivilization and indiaarchaeology etc. forums. Why don't you highlight

> your points of disagreement with them on those forums since they alone can

> answer your questions about their views.

>

>

>

> BTW, what is your view about the Puranas like Srimad Bhagavata, Vishnu

> Purana, Shiva Mahapurana etc. etc., since the Hindu calendar that is being

> followed these days is supposed to be an all embracing one like the Vedas,

> the Vedanga Jyotisha, the Puranas and dharmashatras etc. apart from

> geographical phenomena like the two solstices and equinoxes etc. etc.? Do

> you think that we should include the Pauranic parameters in the Hindu

> calendar or are even those parameters are manipulation of some MESOPOTAMIAN

> work according to you?

>

> Jai Shri Ram!

>

> A K Kaul

>

, " prashant " <praspandey@> wrote:

>

>

>

> -< In any case, as suggested already, pl. consolidate all your

> research----which is as on date actually all in the realm of speculation or

> at

> best just a wishful thinking >

>

> When person starts loosing ground he makes such comments.

>

> Why you don't take up challenge and write on those mails and show that yes

> your

> base of calendar making is correct and show that it is not MESOPOTAMIAN

> CALENDAR

> as said by David Pingree, should I show similarities between Assyrians and

> Lagdhas VJ's calendar…

>

> You have manipulated many things and gave birth to Madhu Madhav before to

> NKS

> months and tried to play with the NKS months, read all documents again and

> see

> the fault…

>

> In Message #24998, you wrote as following :-

>

> ********************************************************************

> On the other hand, a Vedic Vasanti Navratra always starts with the first New

> Moon after the start of Vasanta Ritu, since the " shortfall " of eleven days

> in a

> lunar cycle of twelve months vis-à-vis a solar year is compensated by an

> adhika-masa every 32/33 solar months. This adhika masa concept is in fact

> found

> in the ancient most work viz. the Rigveda " Veda maso dhrita vrato dwadasha

> prajavatah, veda ya upajayate " (Rigveda 1/25/8) i.e. " Varuna

> knows the twelve months, it also knows the thirteenth (adhika) month " .

> *******************************************************************

>

> Please substantiate your wishful speculation by Rig Veda only !

>

> Show how you got the figure of 11 !

>

> Such type magic Subash Kak, You and R N Iyengar can do ! Am i wrong ??

>

> < Pl. recall the long telephonic conversation you had with me a few days

> back

> regarding several topics including Kemadruma vis-a-vis kalpadruma etc. etc.

> I do

> not think it is proper to have posted those very queries on a forum without

> the

> telephonic responses that I had given! >

>

> Pl do write about the response what you gave to me.

>

> < and subject it to peer review in proper forums instead of making a

> sounding

> board of my point of view! >

>

> Who will do Peer review, yes I know you are doing it brilliantly, BTW why

> Koenraad , most recognized author, could not spoke even a single word

> instead of

> only abuses.

>

>

> Kaulji the forum which you are suggesting, i have already read msgs from

> archive

> and know what they know, I know how much they know that is why you didn't

> see,

> Koenraad was living in dreams with his views

>

> Shayad itna kaphi hai….Phir likheyngay aur….

>

> Regs,

> Prashant Pandey

>

>

> </post?postID=6ruFESv_VZCOwjjq8y7k

> bhPhPQYbZtJYSL05s6DERQZveuOp5QTUeMM1NRQp7hNibb3hp5JU9dTMKArhAkcNNZu4Dackmw>

> , " jyotirved " <jyotirved@> wrote:

> >

> >

> > Shri Prashant Pandeyji.

> > Jai Shri Ram!

> >

> > Pl. recall the long telephonic conversation you had with me a few days

> back

> > regarding several topics including Kemadruma vis-a-vis kalpadruma etc.

> etc.

> >

> > I do not think it is proper to have posted those very queries on a forum

> > without the telephonic responses that I had given!

> >

> > In any case, as suggested already, pl. consolidate all your

> > research----which is as on date actually all in the realm of speculation

> or

> > at best just a wishful thinking---- and subject it to peer review in

> proper

> > forums instead of making a sounding board of my point of view!

> >

> > I have also made it clear to you telephonically that of late I have

> > minimized my interaction on forums since I have been informed by several

> > friends that my mails are cross-posted on all the forums like

> > vedic astrology, sohamsa, waves-vedic, om-namah-shivaya-group,

> > ancient-indian-astrology etc. etc. with all the " objections " , though I

> have

> > repeated it several time that all those forums have either banned me or i

> > have d from them or they just do not let my posts appear there,

> > with the result that I do not know as to who is saying what and cannot

> > counter any of the points/insinuations those posts may contain!

> >

> > For instance, Shri Vinay Jha, when he was a member of this ()

> > forum, went on repeating that he had confronted me with all the arguments

> in

> > forum about the Surya Sidhanta ayanamsha, and I

> > kept on telling him that he must be mistaken! I requested Shri Jha several

> > times to post a copy of that very message on so that we could

> > discuss things about the Surya Sidhanta ayanamsha, but he just left the

> > forum instead! However, A gentleman from vedic astrology forum informed me

> > that Shri Jha had reposted that very AIA message and he forwarded it to me

> > from AIA itself.

> >

> > I am posting a copy of Shri Jha's #17107 dt. January 6, 2009, in AIA when

> > I had actually left that forum perhaps in January 2008!

> >

> > Though personal remarks about someone in any forum, who is not a

> > member there, is against rules and regulations and can land

> > owners/moderators/posters of such forums in a great deal of trouble as per

> > US laws, but I do not want to go to such extremes since I have something

> > more important to do than to waste my time on such " pursuits " .

> >

> > As such, I do not want similar situation to continue and have therefore

> > curtailed my responses to the extent possible.

> >

> > Jai Shri Ram!

> >

> > A K Kaul

> >

> > *******

> > *******

> > *****

> >

> > Copy of # 17107 dt. Jan 6, 09, by Shri Vinay Jha in

> > forum:yotishGroup , " prashant "

> <praspandey@> wrote:

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Respected Shri Kaulji,

 

< You are really making surprising statements! On the one hand you say that the

Vedanga Jyotisha is based on MESOPOTAMIAN calendar as said by David Pingree, but

at the same time you say that all the sunapha, anapaha,durudhura, panaphara,

aapollima etc. etc. Greek words are of Indian origin,because there is a word

kalpadruma in some of the shastras! Thus according to you, Acharya Lagadha was a

manipulator and he manipulated the Mesopotamian calendar to make it Indian, but

the Greek words of a Greek astrological work viz. Sphudiwajaâs Yavanajatakam are

of Vedic origin

according to you! >

 

I would like to take this opportunity to expose lies of David Pingree, great

Historian of West University and puppet of Christian Missionaries. I already

said that I know how much knows those professors of Harvard, Cambridge, Oxford,

Michigan (West Univ, Centers of Christian Missionaries) etc etc ...

 

Now we should come to the main points ...

 

1)Apoklima - It is totally Sanskrit word and root of that word is :-

 

apakR^I -  it stands for " to harm "   and it has been used in Shri Valmiki's

Ramayan (I said Shri Valmiki's Ramayan not Raman by Sri Tulsidas Ji), Valmiki

Ramayan predates Greeks influence on Bharat in any respect.I think there should

be no controversy on it.

 

Munda Tribes also used this word for Tantras like of Chamunda Devi, She stands

for Destruction and sits on the Axis of Earth…

 

Mantra for her worship is as below:-

 

" OM EIM HRIM KLIMA CHAMUNDAYEI "

 

And Mundas in India definitely predates to Greeks as they have been indigenous

of Indian land only. And their knowledge of Tantras are with Bengalis

now-a-days, Bengalis are the best persons of doing Tantras ...

 

Every astrologer on this earth knows what the meaning of Apoklima is, does it

match with the root in Sanskrit language …

 

2)durudhura - It is also completely Sanskrit word, it has come in existence by

clubbing 2 words ie dhuraa and dharaNi (dhara)

 

Both words have already been used in Rig Veda.

 

I think Pingree's Rig Veda post-dates Greeks existence... Ha Ha Ha Ha

 

Dhura means Axis and Dhara means Earth. Axis of earth means axis where every

things get balanced out…

 

And all astrologers would be aware of the meaning of durudhura, used in

astrology ….

 

Interesting thing Queen of Persia(Wife of Chandra Gupta Maurya) was having same

name Durdhara and that queen was daughter of Seleucus, Seleucus was having 2-3

wives and Durdhara was daughter from Persian Queen.

 

Same word has also been used in Valmiki Ramayan.

 

 

3)anapaha - It is basically anabham word but in Hindi we write anapha. This word

has come in existence by clubbing two words for Sanskrit ie . anantaraM + Bham

 

'anantaraM' Meaning of that word is, after. Word 'Bham' has been used for NKS

and Signs

 

Both words have been used in Rig - Veda and its brahmnas.

 

And all astrologers would know meaning of anapha

 

4) sunapha - this word is opposite of anapha

 

5) Kemadruma - its explanation I have already given, This word has already been

used in Brahmna of VEDAS, Shatapatha Brahmna…

 

This word is opposite of Kalpa Druma

 

Druma means Tree, Kalpa Druma is magical Tree which fulfills all wishes and Kema

Druma yoga is used for Horoscope, it means the native who is fruitless and

remain dependent on others for whole life.

 

Kaulji, Greeks were also influenced by Sanatan Dharma and Romans made them like

that. There is very interesting foolproof theory with me, I will write

sometimes.

 

Alexander's wife was daughter of Persian dynasty (Darius the great), Cousins of

Hindus…Basically Greeks at that time were totally under influence of

Zoroasterian religion.

 

But Christians want to burry the truth as all Europenas will get to know that

their ancestors were of Sanathan Dharma and later they were converted by swords

to Christinity.

 

So they are scared and now abusing Hindus and want to finish last remnant of

that great Religionâ.

 

Regs,

Prashant Pandey

 

PS :-Kaulji, i am not countering you and i also know, you are also doing good

Job for dharma but what we can do. controversies started because with

development of time. Sanathan Dharma is 15,000 yeras old(though nobody can

estimate its age)and its is alot time for development of many indigenous

thinkings...

 

On Fri, 18/12/09, jyotirved <jyotirved wrote:

 

 

jyotirved <jyotirved

Re: Festivals - Nakshathra and Rashi - Samveda Mantra !!

 

Cc: hinducalendar

Friday, 18 December, 2009, 4:32 PM

 

 

 

 

 

 

Shri Prashant Pandeyji,

 

Jai Shri Ram!

 

<should I show similarities between Assyrians and Lagdhas VJ's calendar…>

 

1. What is the date of the Rik Jyotisham according to you and why?

 

2. Do you mean to say that the Vedanga Jyotisham is an Assyrian work

actually and not by Acharya Lagadha? Pl. give proofs in support of your

answer.

 

3. What is the most ancient indigenous astronomical work available in India

as on date according to you on the basis of which Vedic calendar was

prepared?

 

< You have manipulated many things and gave birth to Madhu Madhav before to

NKS months and tried to play with the NKS months, read all documents again

and see the fault…>

 

1. Do you mean to say the names of Madhu, Madhava etc. months as given

in the Yujurveda and other Vedic lore are manipulations by Vedic rishis of

some Mesopotamian calendar?

2. Since the Vedanga Jyotisha has discussed Krittika, Rohini etc.

nakshatras also, do you mean to say even those nakshatras also are of

MESOPOTAMIAN origin, since the entire VJ is a manipulation of some original

MESOPOTAMIAN work according to you?

 

< Please substantiate your wishful speculation by Rig Veda only !>

 

What is wishful speculation about the following statement that you have

quoted from me, “On the other hand, a Vedic Vasanti Navratra always starts

with the first New Moon after the start of Vasanta Ritu, since the

" shortfall " of eleven days in a lunar cycle of twelve months vis-à-vis a

solar year is compensated by an adhika-masa every 32/33 solar months. This

adhika masa concept is in fact found in the ancient most work viz. the

Rigveda " Veda maso dhrita vrato dwadasha prajavatah, veda ya upajayate "

(Rigveda 1/25/8) i.e. " Varuna knows the twelve months, it also knows the

thirteenth (adhika) month " .

 

1. Is the start of lunar Vasanti Navratra with the first New Moon after

the start of Vasanta Ritu a “wishful speculation� When should it start

according to you and why?

 

2. Is the Rigvedic mantra of an adhika (thirteenth) masa vis-à-vis twelve

solar months a “wishful speculation†according to you?

 

3. Do you mean to say that the Vedic Seers were not aware of such phenomena

like an adhika or kshyaya masa etc.? Do you mean to say even that concept

was a manipulation by some Indian Acharya of some MESOPOTAMINAN phenomena?

 

< Show how you got the figure of 11 !>

 

Do you want me to teach you fundamentals of lunar vis-à-vis solar “years�

 

< Pl do write about the response what you gave to me.>

 

You are really making surprising statements! On the one hand you say that

the Vedanga Jyotisha is based on MESOPOTAMIAN calendar as said by David

Pingree, but at the same time you say that all the sunapha, anapaha,

durudhura, panaphara, aapollima etc. etc. Greek words are of Indian origin,

because there is a word kalpadruma in some of the shastras! Thus according

to you, Acharya Lagadha was a manipulator and he manipulated the

Mesopotamian calendar to make it Indian, but the Greek words of a Greek

astrological work viz. Sphudiwaja’s Yavanajatakam are of “Vedic originâ€

according to you!

 

Anybody can see it for himself as to who is doing the real manipulation!

 

< Kaulji the forum which you are suggesting, i have already read msgs from

archive and know what they know, I know how much they know that is why you

didn't see, Koenraad was living in dreams with his views>

 

I have not suggested to you any forum in particular nor have I suggested

you any particular authors. If you have any disagreements with the views of

different authors whom you have named, you may as well discuss those issues

with them, instead of with me. You are already a member of

hinducivilization and indiaarchaeology etc. forums. Why don’t you highlight

your points of disagreement with them on those forums since they alone can

answer your questions about their views.

 

BTW, what is your view about the Puranas like Srimad Bhagavata, Vishnu

Purana, Shiva Mahapurana etc. etc., since the Hindu calendar that is being

followed these days is supposed to be an all embracing one like the Vedas,

the Vedanga Jyotisha, the Puranas and dharmashatras etc. apart from

geographical phenomena like the two solstices and equinoxes etc. etc.? Do

you think that we should include the Pauranic parameters in the Hindu

calendar or are even those parameters are manipulation of some MESOPOTAMIAN

work according to you?

 

Jai Shri Ram!

 

A K Kaul

 

, " prashant " <praspandey@ ...> wrote:

 

-< In any case, as suggested already, pl. consolidate all your

research---- which is as on date actually all in the realm of speculation or

at

best just a wishful thinking >

 

When person starts loosing ground he makes such comments.

 

Why you don't take up challenge and write on those mails and show that yes

your

base of calendar making is correct and show that it is not MESOPOTAMIAN

CALENDAR

as said by David Pingree, should I show similarities between Assyrians and

Lagdhas VJ's calendar…

 

You have manipulated many things and gave birth to Madhu Madhav before to

NKS

months and tried to play with the NKS months, read all documents again and

see

the fault…

 

In Message #24998, you wrote as following :-

 

************ ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* **

On the other hand, a Vedic Vasanti Navratra always starts with the first New

Moon after the start of Vasanta Ritu, since the " shortfall " of eleven days

in a

lunar cycle of twelve months vis-à-vis a solar year is compensated by an

adhika-masa every 32/33 solar months. This adhika masa concept is in fact

found

in the ancient most work viz. the Rigveda " Veda maso dhrita vrato dwadasha

prajavatah, veda ya upajayate " (Rigveda 1/25/8) i.e. " Varuna

knows the twelve months, it also knows the thirteenth (adhika) month " .

************ ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* *

 

Please substantiate your wishful speculation by Rig Veda only !

 

Show how you got the figure of 11 !

 

Such type magic Subash Kak, You and R N Iyengar can do ! Am i wrong ??

 

< Pl. recall the long telephonic conversation you had with me a few days

back

regarding several topics including Kemadruma vis-a-vis kalpadruma etc. etc.

I do

not think it is proper to have posted those very queries on a forum without

the

telephonic responses that I had given! >

 

Pl do write about the response what you gave to me.

 

< and subject it to peer review in proper forums instead of making a

sounding

board of my point of view! >

 

Who will do Peer review, yes I know you are doing it brilliantly, BTW why

Koenraad , most recognized author, could not spoke even a single word

instead of

only abuses.

 

Kaulji the forum which you are suggesting, i have already read msgs from

archive

and know what they know, I know how much they know that is why you didn't

see,

Koenraad was living in dreams with his views

 

Shayad itna kaphi hai….Phir likheyngay aur….

 

Regs,

Prashant Pandey

 

 

<http://groups. / group/JyotishGro up/post?postID= 6ruFESv_VZCOwjjq

8y7k

bhPhPQYbZtJYSL05s6D ERQZveuOp5QTUeMM 1NRQp7hNibb3hp5J U9dTMKArhAkcNNZu 4Dackmw>

, " jyotirved " <jyotirved@ ..> wrote:

>

>

> Shri Prashant Pandeyji.

> Jai Shri Ram!

>

> Pl. recall the long telephonic conversation you had with me a few days

back

> regarding several topics including Kemadruma vis-a-vis kalpadruma etc.

etc.

>

> I do not think it is proper to have posted those very queries on a forum

> without the telephonic responses that I had given!

>

> In any case, as suggested already, pl. consolidate all your

> research---- which is as on date actually all in the realm of speculation

or

> at best just a wishful thinking---- and subject it to peer review in

proper

> forums instead of making a sounding board of my point of view!

>

> I have also made it clear to you telephonically that of late I have

> minimized my interaction on forums since I have been informed by several

> friends that my mails are cross-posted on all the forums like

> vedic astrology, sohamsa, waves-vedic, om-namah-shivaya- group,

> ancient-indian- astrology etc. etc. with all the " objections " , though I

have

> repeated it several time that all those forums have either banned me or i

> have d from them or they just do not let my posts appear there,

> with the result that I do not know as to who is saying what and cannot

> counter any of the points/insinuations those posts may contain!

>

> For instance, Shri Vinay Jha, when he was a member of this ()

> forum, went on repeating that he had confronted me with all the arguments

in

> ancient_indian_ astrology forum about the Surya Sidhanta ayanamsha, and I

> kept on telling him that he must be mistaken! I requested Shri Jha several

> times to post a copy of that very message on so that we could

> discuss things about the Surya Sidhanta ayanamsha, but he just left the

> forum instead! However, A gentleman from vedic astrology forum informed me

> that Shri Jha had reposted that very AIA message and he forwarded it to me

> from AIA itself.

>

> I am posting a copy of Shri Jha's #17107 dt. January 6, 2009, in AIA when

> I had actually left that forum perhaps in January 2008!

>

> Though personal remarks about someone in any forum, who is not a

> member there, is against rules and regulations and can land

> owners/moderators/ posters of such forums in a great deal of trouble as per

> US laws, but I do not want to go to such extremes since I have something

> more important to do than to waste my time on such " pursuits " .

>

> As such, I do not want similar situation to continue and have therefore

> curtailed my responses to the extent possible.

>

> Jai Shri Ram!

>

> A K Kaul

>

> *******

> *******

> *****

>

> Copy of # 17107 dt. Jan 6, 09, by Shri Vinay Jha in

> ancient_indian_ astrology forum:yotishGroup, " prashant "

<praspandey@ ...> wrote: