Guest guest Posted April 10, 2010 Report Share Posted April 10, 2010 Dear friends, Jai Shri Ram! One of the main pillars of the dates of Mahabharata war is the timing of consecutive eclipses and also a thirteen day paksha. Surprisingly, it is on the bases of eclipses and thirteen day pakshas alone that the dates of the “mother of all battles” have been fixed by various scholars from 1400 BCE to 3300 BCE! All of them have used, almost invariably, the latest software like Planetariums Gold etc. which is based on data from NASA/JPL! I have checked quite a few of these dates, but found them to be as confusing as the wording in which those “articles” have been compiled! As on date, we have records from JPL/NASA of all the eclipses from 3000 BCE to 3000 AD. Though the eclipse timings are correct to the nearest minute in those details, however, there is a lot of confusion regarding Delta Time in the past even in JPL/NASA data. I have, as such, been busy with preparing a program for working out the dates of geocentric New Moon/Full Moon besides solar as well as lunar eclipses for any individual place like Kurukshetra, Ayodhya etc. right from 10000 BCE to 12030 AD. It is in Quick Basic as on date but is likely to be converted to VB6/VB.NET. As soon as it is ready, it will be available for free distribution, as usual! However, the main problem is to incorporate the corrections for Delta Time in the program prior to CE. I have gone through almost all the papers available on the net about the Delta Time calculations, but would still appreciate any help from any learned member in resolving the issue. All I can say at this stage is that quite a few dates of Eclipses given by Prof. B. N. Narahari Achar are not correct since some of the eclipses he has referred to could not be visible in India, leave alone Kurukshetra etc., by any stretch of imagination. Jain Shri Ram! A K Kaul IndiaArchaeology , " Arnaud Fournet " <fournet.arnaud wrote: Dear Mr Shivraj Singh Khokra As this seems to be your name, you wrote this: Dear List, Here is a paper on dating of mahabharata war by a professor of Physics at University of Tennesee. He understands both Sanskrit and astrophysics. Please make up your mind whether you still agree with Steve the luddite who understands neither sanskrit nor astrophysics or the professor. Regards, cercador delaveritat *** I suppose a number of people have received the same document as I did. In all cases I uploaded it here: http://www.scribd.com/doc/29661731/MBH-Dating To be frank, this document is really appalling as regards structure and contents. It's time time people like you and your comrades learn to write something readable. 1. the first obvious thing would be to provide a constant and parallel translation of each Sanskrit word in English. This document looks like an encoded flyer of some sect. 2. in all cases the first part of the document should provide of the philological citations that are the primary data discussed with a carefully and linear translation. Hopefully it would not be bad to add a number of critical remarks on what these citations actually mean. I suppose a number of people have already discussed them before. It's never useless to have a look at what other people have written before. 3. and finally it would be nice to provide all the dates that can fit the mould and not choose whichever one date which best fits your own pet scenario. And explain the pros and contras of the different possible dates. In all cases for the time being you proved *nothing* except that you have no idea what the structure and contents of a scientific document are. Unfortunately for the time being I have never read anything on these potentially interesting astronomical issues that would even remotely make some sense. And this " paper " is not even a draft: it does not go beyond what I call off-the-bar-counter beer-blather. There is no data, no logic, no method, no reasoning, no nothing. And no result of course. Just words laid waste. Go back to work please before you ask people to read you. And come back with something good. Best Arnaud Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 11, 2010 Report Share Posted April 11, 2010 Dear Sri A K Kaul,  Have you gone through the actual peer reviewed paper of Dr N. Achar on the Consistency of Astronomical References in the Bhishmaparvan of Mahabharata (BORI vol LXXXXIV, pp.13-22 (2004).)?  I haven't found full the paper online on the internet. But whatever little I have gone through tells me that he has taken into account nearly 150 astronomical references in his voluminious paper which fit with the dates/year he has zeroed in on. One triad of eclipse is probably not the only reason for fixing a certain date. And he has not gone into multiple dates of eclipse traids, but only one date, that is in 3067 BC. The load of astronomical evidences in quite strong.  Challanging the authenticity of a peer-reviewed paper would need another peer-reviewed paper. I am sure you know that in the world of science, peer-review is God. I hope to see one from you soon!  -Regards  Rajarshi        " Between me and You, there is only me. Take away the me, so only You remain " - Hallaj --- On Sun, 11/4/10, jyotirved <jyotirved wrote: jyotirved <jyotirved FW: Re: Paper on dating of mahabharata war hinducalendar , Sunday, 11 April, 2010, 2:31 PM  _____ jyotirved [jyotirved (AT) sify (DOT) com] Saturday, April 10, 2010 9:47 PM 'indiaarchaeology' Cc: 'akandabaratam'; 'abhinavagupta'; 'vedic_research_ institute'; ' '; 'Vedic Astrology- hyderabad'; 'asthikasamaj' Re: Paper on dating of mahabharata war Dear friends, Jai Shri Ram! One of the main pillars of the dates of Mahabharata war is the timing of consecutive eclipses and also a thirteen day paksha. Surprisingly, it is on the bases of eclipses and thirteen day pakshas alone that the dates of the " mother of all battles " have been fixed by various scholars from 1400 BCE to 3300 BCE! All of them have used, almost invariably, the latest software like Planetariums Gold etc. which is based on data from NASA/JPL! I have checked quite a few of these dates, but found them to be as confusing as the wording in which those " articles " have been compiled! As on date, we have records from JPL/NASA of all the eclipses from 3000 BCE to 3000 AD. Though the eclipse timings are correct to the nearest minute in those details, however, there is a lot of confusion regarding Delta Time in the past even in JPL/NASA data. I have, as such, been busy with preparing a program for working out the dates of geocentric New Moon/Full Moon besides solar as well as lunar eclipses for any individual place like Kurukshetra, Ayodhya etc. right from 10000 BCE to 12030 AD. It is in Quick Basic as on date but is likely to be converted to VB6/VB.NET. As soon as it is ready, it will be available for free distribution, as usual! However, the main problem is to incorporate the corrections for Delta Time in the program prior to CE. I have gone through almost all the papers available on the net about the Delta Time calculations, but would still appreciate any help from any learned member in resolving the issue. All I can say at this stage is that quite a few dates of Eclipses given by Prof. B. N. Narahari Achar are not correct since some of the eclipses he has referred to could not be visible in India, leave alone Kurukshetra etc., by any stretch of imagination. Jain Shri Ram! A K Kaul IndiaArchaeology, " Arnaud Fournet " <fournet.arnaud@ ...> wrote: Dear Mr Shivraj Singh Khokra As this seems to be your name, you wrote this: Dear List, Here is a paper on dating of mahabharata war by a professor of Physics at University of Tennesee. He understands both Sanskrit and astrophysics. Please make up your mind whether you still agree with Steve the luddite who understands neither sanskrit nor astrophysics or the professor. Regards, cercador delaveritat *** I suppose a number of people have received the same document as I did. In all cases I uploaded it here: http://www.scribd. com/doc/29661731 /MBH-Dating To be frank, this document is really appalling as regards structure and contents. It's time time people like you and your comrades learn to write something readable. 1. the first obvious thing would be to provide a constant and parallel translation of each Sanskrit word in English. This document looks like an encoded flyer of some sect. 2. in all cases the first part of the document should provide of the philological citations that are the primary data discussed with a carefully and linear translation. Hopefully it would not be bad to add a number of critical remarks on what these citations actually mean. I suppose a number of people have already discussed them before. It's never useless to have a look at what other people have written before. 3. and finally it would be nice to provide all the dates that can fit the mould and not choose whichever one date which best fits your own pet scenario. And explain the pros and contras of the different possible dates. In all cases for the time being you proved *nothing* except that you have no idea what the structure and contents of a scientific document are. Unfortunately for the time being I have never read anything on these potentially interesting astronomical issues that would even remotely make some sense. And this " paper " is not even a draft: it does not go beyond what I call off-the-bar- counter beer-blather. There is no data, no logic, no method, no reasoning, no nothing. And no result of course. Just words laid waste. Go back to work please before you ask people to read you. And come back with something good. Best Arnaud Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 12, 2010 Report Share Posted April 12, 2010 Shri Rajarshiji, Jai Shri Ram! Your last point first, “Challenging the authenticity of a peer-reviewed paper would need another peer-reviewed paper. I am sure you know that in the world of science, peer-review is God.” There are half a dozen papers by eminent scholars and on top of it almost all of them are peer-reviewed! The dates of the war given by them range from 1400 BCE to 3300 BCE! In other words, we have half a dozen “Gods” around! Secondly, I am not challenging anybody’s authority! All I am doing is keeping my views before the public. Quit a few members of that “public”, including you, are prominent scholars and as such capable of peer-review of my views! It is thus not A versus B but it is just to arrive at Truth and nothing but Truth! < Have you gone through the actual peer reviewed paper of Dr N. Achar on the Consistency of Astronomical References in the Bhishmaparvan of Mahabharata (BORI vol LXXXXIV, pp.13-22 (2004).)?> Prof. Achar was kind enough to send his papers to me through airmail. I have gone through those papers. < One triad of eclipse is probably not the only reason for fixing a certain date. And he has not gone into multiple dates of eclipse triads, but only one date,  that is in 3067 BC.> It may not be the only reason, but it is one of the main reasons, especially since the eclipses are supposed to have taken place in “ghasra-paksha” i.e. a thirteen-day-fortnight i.e. the period from one Full Moon to New Moon or vice-versa has been thirteen days instead of fifteen days. If a lunar eclipse takes place at around Noon in Kurukshetra, naturally, it is not going to be taken into account, especially more than 5000 years back, when the Indian astronomers could not have calculated eclipses before hand but would have recorded them after they had taken place. If an eclipse was not visible at all, it is impossible that any dire consequences would have been attributed to the same! I am posting below a copy of #10006 of April 12 of Shri Pisapati Sarma and you can draw your own conclusions as to what uncertainty there is both astronomically and archaeologically about the Mahabharata dates! Jai Shri Ram! A K Kaul Copy of message No. 10006 from India Archaeology forum: RE: [ind-Arch] Re: Paper on dating of mahabharata war Also, please look into this paper and contact the author if required. http://www.new.dli.ernet.in/rawdataupload/upload/insa/INSA_1/20008276_77.pdf Prof SR Rao has archeological studies on Dwaraka http://www.ias.ac.in/currsci/may102004/1256.pdf http://www.s8int.com/water25.html These findings limit to 1500 BC time line. “””End quoted message””””” A K K , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14 wrote: Re: FW: Re: Paper on dating of mahabharata war Dear Sri A K Kaul,  Have you gone through the actual peer reviewed paper of Dr N. Achar on the Consistency of Astronomical References in the Bhishmaparvan of Mahabharata (BORI vol LXXXXIV, pp.13-22 (2004).)?  I haven't found full the paper online on the internet. But whatever little I have gone through tells me that he has taken into account nearly 150 astronomical references in his voluminous paper which fit with the dates/year he has zeroed in on. One triad of eclipse is probably not the only reason for fixing a certain date. And he has not gone into multiple dates of eclipse traids, but only one date, that is in 3067 BC. The load of astronomical evidences in quite strong.  Challanging the authenticity of a peer-reviewed paper would need another peer-reviewed paper. I am sure you know that in the world of science, peer-review is God. I hope to see one from you soon!  -Regards  Rajarshi " Between me and You, there is only me. Take away the me, so only You remain " - Hallaj _____ jyotirved [jyotirved (AT) sify (DOT) com] Saturday, April 10, 2010 9:47 PM 'indiaarchaeology' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2010 Report Share Posted April 13, 2010 Dear Sri Kaul ji,  Thank you for providing the papers. I will go through them in details. However a few quick points from my side.   There are half a dozen papers by eminent scholars and on top of it almost all of them are peer-reviewed! The dates of the war given by them range from 1400 BCE to 3300 BCE! In other words, we have half a dozen “Gods†around!  That is true, however, if one is using instruments of science, a peer review is of course the first basic step. Later if errors are found, one can always do a refutation of the same. And as rightly pointed out, let us just follow the truth wherever it may lead us!  Now, I had come across some criticism of Dr Achar's work, and the responses given by Dr Achar for the same. I was trying to locate the same online, but could not trace the link till the time I hit the sent button on this mail.  INfact probably a year or so back he had explained and answered in details regarding the points raised by his detractors. The text you provided, in an old paper and it has been already analysed/criticised/reviewed. Further, it hinges sole on the eclipse dates ignoring almost 140 other simultaenous astronomical references. Whereas in Dr Achar's resarch the simulation of the night sky - not just eclipses - beyond and upto a 7000 years period is done using the latest Palomar II background sky images of Caltech from NASA. Which is why the paper was peer reviewed by other astrophysicists. The one you gave the link for, probably never went through all that rigor. You have seen Dr Achar's paper and understand how technical it is.  The positions of Saturn at Rohini and Mars at Jyestha with two eclipses – a Lunar eclipse at Kartik and Solar eclipse at Jyesth, (overlapping of the saros + metonic cyles) plus the visibility of comets, etc etc, indeed, does not repeat multiple times in the last 7000 years!  But I would be waiting for your paper. As I said, I am open to new ideas, provided they stand the test of strict scrutiny. As of now, I have not come across anything to suggest that Dr Achar's findings are incorrect.  That paper on Dwarka is nice and actually valides the points that have been put forth- The fight about Dwarka is different, and the link you gave does not contain any part of it.  Anyway, wish you luck!  -Regards  Rajarshi   " Between me and You, there is only me. Take away the me, so only You remain " - Hallaj --- On Mon, 12/4/10, jyotirved <jyotirved wrote: jyotirved <jyotirved FW: Re: Paper on dating of mahabharata war Cc: indiaarchaeology , asthikasamaj , akandabaratam , hinducalendar , vedic_research_institute , mukti_marg , Monday, 12 April, 2010, 9:56 PM  Shri Rajarshiji, Jai Shri Ram! Your last point first, “Challenging the authenticity of a peer-reviewed paper would need another peer-reviewed paper. I am sure you know that in the world of science, peer-review is God.†There are half a dozen papers by eminent scholars and on top of it almost all of them are peer-reviewed! The dates of the war given by them range from 1400 BCE to 3300 BCE! In other words, we have half a dozen “Gods†around! Secondly, I am not challenging anybody’s authority! All I am doing is keeping my views before the public. Quit a few members of that “publicâ€, including you, are prominent scholars and as such capable of peer-review of my views! It is thus not A versus B but it is just to arrive at Truth and nothing but Truth! < Have you gone through the actual peer reviewed paper of Dr N. Achar on the Consistency of Astronomical References in the Bhishmaparvan of Mahabharata (BORI vol LXXXXIV, pp.13-22 (2004).)?> Prof. Achar was kind enough to send his papers to me through airmail. I have gone through those papers. < One triad of eclipse is probably not the only reason for fixing a certain date. And he has not gone into multiple dates of eclipse triads, but only one date,  that is in 3067 BC.> It may not be the only reason, but it is one of the main reasons, especially since the eclipses are supposed to have taken place in “ghasra-paksha†i.e. a thirteen-day- fortnight i.e. the period from one Full Moon to New Moon or vice-versa has been thirteen days instead of fifteen days. If a lunar eclipse takes place at around Noon in Kurukshetra, naturally, it is not going to be taken into account, especially more than 5000 years back, when the Indian astronomers could not have calculated eclipses before hand but would have recorded them after they had taken place. If an eclipse was not visible at all, it is impossible that any dire consequences would have been attributed to the same! I am posting below a copy of #10006 of April 12 of Shri Pisapati Sarma and you can draw your own conclusions as to what uncertainty there is both astronomically and archaeologically about the Mahabharata dates! Jai Shri Ram! A K Kaul Copy of message No. 10006 from India Archaeology forum: RE: [ind-Arch] Re: Paper on dating of mahabharata war Also, please look into this paper and contact the author if required. <http://www.new. dli.ernet. in/rawdataupload /upload/insa/ INSA_1/20008276_ 77.pd f> http://www.new. dli.ernet. in/rawdataupload /upload/insa/ INSA_1/20008276_ 77.pdf Prof SR Rao has archeological studies on Dwaraka <http://www.ias. ac.in/currsci/ may102004/ 1256.pdf> http://www.ias. ac.in/currsci/ may102004/ 1256.pdf <http://www.s8int. com/water25. html> http://www.s8int. com/water25. html These findings limit to 1500 BC time line. “â€â€End quoted messageâ€â€â€â€â€ A K K , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ...> wrote: Re: FW: Re: Paper on dating of mahabharata war Dear Sri A K Kaul,  Have you gone through the actual peer reviewed paper of Dr N. Achar on the Consistency of Astronomical References in the Bhishmaparvan of Mahabharata (BORI vol LXXXXIV, pp.13-22 (2004).)?  I haven't found full the paper online on the internet. But whatever little I have gone through tells me that he has taken into account nearly 150 astronomical references in his voluminous paper which fit with the dates/year he has zeroed in on. One triad of eclipse is probably not the only reason for fixing a certain date. And he has not gone into multiple dates of eclipse traids, but only one date, that is in 3067 BC. The load of astronomical evidences in quite strong.  Challanging the authenticity of a peer-reviewed paper would need another peer-reviewed paper. I am sure you know that in the world of science, peer-review is God. I hope to see one from you soon!  -Regards  Rajarshi " Between me and You, there is only me. Take away the me, so only You remain " - Hallaj _____ jyotirved [jyotirved@ sify. com] Saturday, April 10, 2010 9:47 PM 'indiaarchaeology' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.