Guest guest Posted November 1, 2007 Report Share Posted November 1, 2007 Dear Lalit, > I have seen Hanuman Ji with tail and in Ramkrishna Leelamrit it's > given that when Pramahansha was doing hanuman bhakti sadhana, he > developed tail. It's his mind who gets aligned to Bali not to > Hanuman. It is interesting that you should mention Ramakrishna Paramahamsa. He is a perfect example of what Dr Manish Pandit mentioned as Hinduism giving the ability to make messiahs. Through his own sadhana, he became a messiah and he created spiritual giants from young men (Vivekananda, Brahmananda, Premananda, Abhedananda, Adbhutananda, Akhandananda etc). Some of them were, according to Ramakrishna himself, " iswarakotis " and yet it took them several hours of sadhana daily for several years in Ramakrishna's presence, before they found their bearings. Ramakrishna's life is a proof that it is possible even in this age to experience the divine and make other experience the divine! Dear Sri Bhaskar, > grammatical knowledge is missing within us, and then we look upon > these Masters for some retreat. But it does not > come, for they do not wish to spoil their images. > > Chandrasekharji, Pradeepji and also Narsimharaoji have all let > us Hindus down with their silence I understand your frustration. I just want to clarify that I was not silent because I did not wish to spoil my image. I was away from all the lists and missed the original post in which the shloka was posted. When Sri Singh posted the shloka, I had a chance to jump in. Dear Sri Pradeep, > If Patatrina mentioned in shloka 34,is ritual fire,then what does the > ''Patatri'' in ''PatatriNah Tasya Vapaam'' mean in shloka 36.What is > cooked here.Pls elaborate.whatis being raised - from where. Two things: (1) It is not unusual in Sanskrita literature to a use a word with one meaning in one verse and use the same word with another meaning after one or two verses. It is also not unusual to use different words to indicate the same object in different verses. It is possible that verse 34 is talking about the fat of horse. It does not mean, however, that the word patatrin cannot have any other meaning in the surrounding verses. (2) Actually, verse 38 says that 16 ritviks divided ALL the body parts of the horse and offered them as per the rules. The language used is not consistent with the idea that some part of the horse was already put in the fire by one ritwik and smelled by the king. Thus, it is possible that " patatrin " does not mean horse in verse 36. The word vapA not only means fat, but also means a seed or something that starts. Verse 36 can possibly mean that the priest extracted some burning material from the base of the fire and held it up saying some mantras as it continued to burn (by itself, i.e. away from the big fire) and verse 37 can mean that the king smelled the smoke from it. This may be akin to how priests take out darbhas from fire, let them burn and make raksha (protective ash) with it. > 1)In Brihadaranyakopanishad it is mentioned that Year is the body of > the horse.My doubt - If it is so- then what is the Horse?I am not > giving my answers,in order to not to curtail your meditative thoughts. If you really want my meditative thoughts, please give the verse in Sanskrita and I will try to meditate on it. * * * Regarding your other thoughts, I will quickly mention a couple of thoughts. If I get time, I will write more later. Aswamedha yajna is performed in a fire pit that is shaped like Garuda (divine eagle) with spread out wings. In fact, patatrin could also mean the fire pit in both verses 34 and 36. Patatrin literally means one with wings. Though it means bird, horse, fire etc, the basic meaning is " the winged one " . It could simply refer to the Garuda shaped fire pit itself. Anyway, let me get back to the symbolism that I wanted to mention. Lord Vishnu represents sattwa guna within each person, which sustains all of one's activities. Garuda is the vehicle of Vishnu. Garuda represents the aatmabala (spiritual strength) in each person and the two wings are the wisdom and surrender. One's spiritual strength spreads the wings of wisdom and surrender and carries one's sattwa guna forward, in order to help in sustaining one's activities. Horse is shown by Venus astrologically. It symbolizes the desires of the mind for pleasure. Sacrificing a horse in the fire in a Garuda shaped fire pit symbolizes giving up one's strong desires in the internal fire lit up from one's spiritual strength. When desire is given up, the bhootaagni (existential fire burning in the sookshma sareera of the person, which the external fire in a homam/yajnam symbolizes) burns with a solid lustre using the spiritual strength as the base and one becomes free from sins. Just as the mind has 16 kalas (parts), its desire of pleasure also has 16 kalas. Dividing the horse into 16 parts and sacrificing them all symbolizes giving up desire for pleasure in all its aspects. That alone can free one from sins. If competent ritwiks perform an external ritual in which various acts symbolize various internal happenings, they can actually bring about the internal happenings through external actions in the ritual! BTW, I believe there are some verses in Rigveda on this. If possible, we can discuss them later. * * * The idea of sacrificing a horse in fire may shock some. If somebody tries it today, he will end up committing a new sin and not really cleansing old sins! We no longer have Vasishtha and Rishyasringa amongst us to conduct such yajnas. Such rituals work only when there are ritviks whose experience of self (Brahman) is so perfected that one sees the ONE Brahman in ALL beings and whose understanding of Maya (field of duality/multiplicity that arises from the single self) is so perfect that one can bring about any change in any object by manipulating any other object of the field of duality. Gone are those days. That is why Vishnu had to come to earth as Buddha and put breaks on certain sacrifice rituals. Best regards, Narasimha ------------------------------- Homam manual and audio: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam Spirituality: Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org ------------------------------- , " vijayadas_pradeep " <vijayadas_pradeep wrote: > > Dear Shri Narasimha > > Thank you for the interpretations. > I have some doubts here.Kindly clarify them.Pls treat these as doubts > and it can very well be wrong. > > If Patatrina mentioned in shloka 34,is ritual fire,then what does the > ''Patatri'' in ''PatatriNah Tasya Vapaam'' mean in shloka 36.What is > cooked here.Pls elaborate.whatis being raised - from where. > > > I am submitting some random thoughts with prayers to Lord. > > 1)In Brihadaranyakopanishad it is mentioned that Year is the body of > the horse.My doubt - If it is so- then what is the Horse?I am not > giving my answers,in order to not to curtail your meditative thoughts. > > 2)Patatri - as per my understanding is a Parava or the one which can > fly.The Raja among Patatri is Garuda.Can you think of any eternal > Parava within you which can fly? > > If you have an answer for 1,then what is that is being killed.Is it > that which has 3 gunas,3 states etc,by which one can transcend > something.Why is Kausalya using 3 Knives. > > Why do they wait for 1 year.Isn't it( year) the body of the horse - > then what is Horse. > > If that is killed ,which Parava or Patatri is left within which can > shine with a stable splendour.Upon the burning and smelling of what, > Dasharatha can be releived of Sins. > > 3)So with what is kuasalya spending the night with .Which Patatri/Parava. > > Also the parts of the body is offered to agni(agni is mentioned > seperately here - not as Patatri ) and 16 priests are present. > > Through Aswamedha which Parava(bird) is transcending and reaching > noble heights.The Process of creation at both levels are visible > here.Kindly share your thoughts.Is Rig Veda helpful by any means.My > knowledge is negligible and these are my humble thoughts. > > Other members please don't attack me.I am raising my doubts to shri > Narasimha.Thank you for your translation.Stable splendour was very > helpful(The one with Susthithi and chetas). > > > Regds > Pradeep > , " Narasimha Rao " <pvr@> wrote: > > > > Dear Sri Singh and others, > > > > Thank you for mentioning the exact shloka. > > > > If I am allowed, I will give my interpretation. I am a good scholar > > in Sanskrita, though I must mention that scholarship is insufficient > > to understand the true meanings of the writings of *rishis*. Each > > word of a rishi is pregnant with several meanings. To understand the > > true meaning of an entire verse, your brain wavelength has to match > > the rishi's. It is possible only with divine blessings. > > > > When it comes to Vedas, Upanishats, Puranas and other scriptures (or > > even astrology texts like BPHS and Jaimini Sutram), a lot of people > > advance a lot of interpretations, but most of them are corrupted due > > to the quality of the current time. It is Her wish that this > > corruption of knowledge should come in a big way in this age. It is > > also Her wish that some people should come now and then, correct a > > few things and go. Only She has the full 'screen play' of this > > drama. Not knowing that this is a drama and that She is the > > director, we get caught in the show and take things very personally > > sometimes. We should continue to play our roles in the drama, but > > with an understanding that this is a drama. > > > > Anyway, philosophy aside, here is my interpretation. If you disagree > > or think I am wrong, please ignore this fool. > > > > The word " patatrin " means a fire also. While some commentators may > > have interpreted it as a bird or horse, I will go with fire as we > > are talking about a multi-day fire ritual here where the ritual fire > > is kept alive. Here is a word-by-word interpretation: > > > > tadA = then > > kausalyA = Queen Kausalya > > dharmakAmyayA = with a desire to follow her duty > > avasat = spent > > ekAM = one > > rajanIM = night > > sArdhaM = along with > > patatriNA = the ritual fire > > susthitena ca cetasA = that had a stable splendor > > > > This basically means: " Wishing to follow her duty, Queen Kausalya > > spent one night aside the ritual fire that was burning with a stable > > splendor. " She either slept by the fire or, more likely, meditated > > by the fire for the entire night. The priests were probably > > maintaining the fire during the night also. > > > > If you take patatrin to mean a horse or a bird, " susthitena ca > > cetasA " is awkward. How can you refer to a dead horse as " with a > > firm consciousness/splendor " ? That phrase has been misinterpreted > > below. In MY interpretation, it falls in place perfectly. > > > > BTW, meditating by the fire in the night is quite something. If you > > perform a proper homam during the day and meditate sitting by the > > fire that continues to burn in the early part of the night, it is a > > fantastic experience. > > > > Best regards, > > Narasimha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2007 Report Share Posted November 3, 2007 , " Narasimha Rao " <pvr wrote: > Dear Sri Pradeep, Dear Narasimha ji Kindly call me pradeep. Thank you very much for sharing your experiences ,which are educative.Let me express my views,with prayers.Correct them. Yes i agree with most of your explanations.As you have expressed both the physical as well as subtle understandings,our thoughts are in sync at many instances.However as the ritual is physical in nature for our eye,some of your explanations are staying at the surface.I hope further expansions are possible and you might have purposefuly avoided those ,at this stage.(However you have also mentioned about the inner one as a seperate paragraph) > > (2) Actually, verse 38 says that 16 ritviks divided ALL the body > parts of the horse and offered them as per the rules. The language > used is not consistent with the idea that some part of the horse was > already put in the fire by one ritwik and smelled by the king. I totally agree with this.Though the translators have written other parts,i have understood it as you have said. > > Thus, it is possible that " patatrin " does not mean horse in verse > 36. The word vapA not only means fat, but also means a seed or > something that starts. Verse 36 can possibly mean that the priest > extracted some burning material from the base of the fire and held > it up saying some mantras as it continued to burn (by itself, i.e. > away from the big fire) and verse 37 can mean that the king smelled > the smoke from it. This may be akin to how priests take out darbhas > from fire, let them burn and make raksha (protective ash) with it. My view is even the slaying of the horse is symbolic.It is not killed. In Brihadaranyaka Year is the horse iself, with other limbs and joints being the limbs of an year.It is explaining the process of creation and the evolution of Time in association with space.It is Kalashakthi.During Yajna one is identifying himself with the ''Bigger Horse''. Now slaying of the horse at lower level is symolizing the detachment from the clutches of time and space or earthly pleasures as you have mentioned.Once the body(see body is always w.r to Time and Space) is gone the winged one(Patatrin) is left.Garuda has control over 5 Vayus and Fire is evolved from Vayu.May be thus the Ritual pit itself has the shape of Garuda. We are eliminating tattwas one by one symbolically.Now the inner one is with wings and still got layers.After the slaying Kausalya is staying with the Patatrin(winged one - inner one) which is now having a stable consciousness.It can also point to the stable consciousness of Kausalya.The Patatrin is representing Dasharathas atma is my feeling.The bodily consciousness of Dsharatha is killed.(Atma can fly away from the body after its death) Now symlocally the one with control over senses is lifting the fat and offering it to the fire.(Here it can be an offering in a symbolic way-not the physical fat of horse). This layer(vapaam) contains the Karma bandhas and are burnt.This smoke is releiving Dsharatha of his sins.This points to sacrificing himself to the sacred fire,which in turn is consumed by ''higher entity''.The opened mouth of the sacrficial horse is called Fire.Other upanishads do mention about the consumer of everything. Then Puthrakameshti etc.Here again i feel lot of symmolic elements are present. > > > 1)In Brihadaranyakopanishad it is mentioned that Year is the body > of > > the horse.My doubt - If it is so- then what is the Horse?I am not > > giving my answers,in order to not to curtail your meditative > thoughts. > > If you really want my meditative thoughts, please give the verse in > Sanskrita and I will try to meditate on it. The shloka starting with Usha Vaa Ashwasya medhasya shirah Surya Chakshu... Samvatsara Atma(here as the limbs and joints are months etc ,Samvatsara i feel is not soul but atma ie the horse itself). > > * * * > > Regarding your other thoughts, I will quickly mention a couple of > thoughts. If I get time, I will write more later. > > Aswamedha yajna is performed in a fire pit that is shaped like > Garuda (divine eagle) with spread out wings. In fact, patatrin could > also mean the fire pit in both verses 34 and 36. Patatrin literally > means one with wings. Though it means bird, horse, fire etc, the > basic meaning is " the winged one " . It could simply refer to the > Garuda shaped fire pit itself. Anyway, let me get back to the > symbolism that I wanted to mention. > > Lord Vishnu represents sattwa guna within each person, which > sustains all of one's activities. Garuda is the vehicle of Vishnu. > Garuda represents the aatmabala (spiritual strength) in each person > and the two wings are the wisdom and surrender. One's spiritual > strength spreads the wings of wisdom and surrender and carries one's > sattwa guna forward, in order to help in sustaining one's activities. > > Horse is shown by Venus astrologically. It symbolizes the desires of > the mind for pleasure. > > Sacrificing a horse in the fire in a Garuda shaped fire pit > symbolizes giving up one's strong desires in the internal fire lit > up from one's spiritual strength. When desire is given up, the > bhootaagni (existential fire burning in the sookshma sareera of the > person, which the external fire in a homam/yajnam symbolizes) burns > with a solid lustre using the spiritual strength as the base and one > becomes free from sins. Just as the mind has 16 kalas (parts), its > desire of pleasure also has 16 kalas. Dividing the horse into 16 > parts and sacrificing them all symbolizes giving up desire for > pleasure in all its aspects. That alone can free one from sins. > > If competent ritwiks perform an external ritual in which various > acts symbolize various internal happenings, they can actually bring > about the internal happenings through external actions in the ritual! > Thank you for sharing your valuable thoughts > BTW, I believe there are some verses in Rigveda on this. If > possible, we can discuss them later. Yes if Lords will is there i may learn with your help. > > * * * > > The idea of sacrificing a horse in fire may shock some. If somebody > tries it today, he will end up committing a new sin and not really > cleansing old sins! We no longer have Vasishtha and Rishyasringa > amongst us to conduct such yajnas. Such rituals work only when there > are ritviks whose experience of self (Brahman) is so perfected that > one sees the ONE Brahman in ALL beings and whose understanding of > Maya (field of duality/multiplicity that arises from the single > self) is so perfect that one can bring about any change in any > object by manipulating any other object of the field of duality. > > Gone are those days. That is why Vishnu had to come to earth as > Buddha and put breaks on certain sacrifice rituals. > I personally feel Horse is not Killed.Some one who could not understand the crux in between might had started killing.This was eventually stopped by Budha who could understand the inner meaning. Additional thoughts The whole procedure has to be understood w.r to the process of creation.The context is so.Dasaratha has a desire/longing of begetting a son.Horse has got different meanings at different levels.At our level - In Varnashrama(please don't take it in societal terms but as an evolutionary stage) Kshathriya is below Brahmana.Kshathriyas and Horses are related.At one level Dasharatha is represented by this horse. However a priest is needed for a Kshathriya to perform the rituals(Yajna) necessary for getting the desired SONs.These sons are not ordinary sons as the literal meaning suggests.Lord Rama etc is born(Soorya Vamsha).The sampath or wealth obtained is spiritual Truth.Lord Rama is then Uttama among Purshas.He is within all of us and we have to realize HIM. Why does one sing Kausalya Supraja at dawn and the awakening etc(To whom we are singing at dawn) can be thought by the ones who are interested.Similarly the expansion of the Kingdom mentioned in the Yajna may not be a physical expansion.It has a deeper meaning which you are aware of.All the physical exercises are symbolic ,similar to the purpose of our existence.Thus it is also an evolutionary process in the spiritual ladder. The priest or Brahmana is the one who is eligible to the do the Yajna alone.The reason is obvious - evolution.One with Brahma jnana and the one who has controll over his senses. A real Brahmana can do it internally through intense sadhana while others need external help.Even the Priests performing the rituals will hand over the responsibility to FIRE,so is the heirarchy.It is interesting to note that,one whole year from our perspective is needed to form one complete concept of the horse at a higher level.The hoofs(in real sense ,their movement) results in day and night.It shows the concept of Time from another frame of reference.No wonder why one day for the GOD's is one year for us. These are my personal understandings and pray to Lord that ,it be corrected by learned, if wrong. Thank you very much Pradeep > Best regards, > Narasimha > ------------------------------- > Homam manual and audio: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam > Spirituality: > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org > ------------------------------- > > , " vijayadas_pradeep " > <vijayadas_pradeep@> wrote: > > > > Dear Shri Narasimha > > > > Thank you for the interpretations. > > I have some doubts here.Kindly clarify them.Pls treat these as > doubts > > and it can very well be wrong. > > > > If Patatrina mentioned in shloka 34,is ritual fire,then what does > the > > ''Patatri'' in ''PatatriNah Tasya Vapaam'' mean in shloka 36.What > is > > cooked here.Pls elaborate.whatis being raised - from where. > > > > > > I am submitting some random thoughts with prayers to Lord. > > > > 1)In Brihadaranyakopanishad it is mentioned that Year is the body > of > > the horse.My doubt - If it is so- then what is the Horse?I am not > > giving my answers,in order to not to curtail your meditative > thoughts. > > > > 2)Patatri - as per my understanding is a Parava or the one which > can > > fly.The Raja among Patatri is Garuda.Can you think of any eternal > > Parava within you which can fly? > > > > If you have an answer for 1,then what is that is being killed.Is it > > that which has 3 gunas,3 states etc,by which one can transcend > > something.Why is Kausalya using 3 Knives. > > > > Why do they wait for 1 year.Isn't it( year) the body of the horse - > > then what is Horse. > > > > If that is killed ,which Parava or Patatri is left within which can > > shine with a stable splendour.Upon the burning and smelling of > what, > > Dasharatha can be releived of Sins. > > > > 3)So with what is kuasalya spending the night with .Which > Patatri/Parava. > > > > Also the parts of the body is offered to agni(agni is mentioned > > seperately here - not as Patatri ) and 16 priests are present. > > > > Through Aswamedha which Parava(bird) is transcending and reaching > > noble heights.The Process of creation at both levels are visible > > here.Kindly share your thoughts.Is Rig Veda helpful by any means.My > > knowledge is negligible and these are my humble thoughts. > > > > Other members please don't attack me.I am raising my doubts to shri > > Narasimha.Thank you for your translation.Stable splendour was very > > helpful(The one with Susthithi and chetas). > > > > > > Regds > > Pradeep > > , " Narasimha Rao " <pvr@> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Sri Singh and others, > > > > > > Thank you for mentioning the exact shloka. > > > > > > If I am allowed, I will give my interpretation. I am a good > scholar > > > in Sanskrita, though I must mention that scholarship is > insufficient > > > to understand the true meanings of the writings of *rishis*. > Each > > > word of a rishi is pregnant with several meanings. To understand > the > > > true meaning of an entire verse, your brain wavelength has to > match > > > the rishi's. It is possible only with divine blessings. > > > > > > When it comes to Vedas, Upanishats, Puranas and other scriptures > (or > > > even astrology texts like BPHS and Jaimini Sutram), a lot of > people > > > advance a lot of interpretations, but most of them are corrupted > due > > > to the quality of the current time. It is Her wish that this > > > corruption of knowledge should come in a big way in this age. It > is > > > also Her wish that some people should come now and then, correct > a > > > few things and go. Only She has the full 'screen play' of this > > > drama. Not knowing that this is a drama and that She is the > > > director, we get caught in the show and take things very > personally > > > sometimes. We should continue to play our roles in the drama, > but > > > with an understanding that this is a drama. > > > > > > Anyway, philosophy aside, here is my interpretation. If you > disagree > > > or think I am wrong, please ignore this fool. > > > > > > The word " patatrin " means a fire also. While some commentators > may > > > have interpreted it as a bird or horse, I will go with fire as > we > > > are talking about a multi-day fire ritual here where the ritual > fire > > > is kept alive. Here is a word-by-word interpretation: > > > > > > tadA = then > > > kausalyA = Queen Kausalya > > > dharmakAmyayA = with a desire to follow her duty > > > avasat = spent > > > ekAM = one > > > rajanIM = night > > > sArdhaM = along with > > > patatriNA = the ritual fire > > > susthitena ca cetasA = that had a stable splendor > > > > > > This basically means: " Wishing to follow her duty, Queen > Kausalya > > > spent one night aside the ritual fire that was burning with a > stable > > > splendor. " She either slept by the fire or, more likely, > meditated > > > by the fire for the entire night. The priests were probably > > > maintaining the fire during the night also. > > > > > > If you take patatrin to mean a horse or a bird, " susthitena ca > > > cetasA " is awkward. How can you refer to a dead horse as " with a > > > firm consciousness/splendor " ? That phrase has been > misinterpreted > > > below. In MY interpretation, it falls in place perfectly. > > > > > > BTW, meditating by the fire in the night is quite something. If > you > > > perform a proper homam during the day and meditate sitting by > the > > > fire that continues to burn in the early part of the night, it > is a > > > fantastic experience. > > > > > > Best regards, > > > Narasimha > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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