Guest guest Posted November 15, 2007 Report Share Posted November 15, 2007 Hi Dhanajay First of all I think it is difficult today in a city to appreciate how bright stars can be due to light pollution but we can still see the outlines of the various constellations as they pass over. If bright stars are dimmed then it is easy to know which stars are passing over by watching the position of the Moon at night, and by knowing which phase the Moon is in, it is easy to know where other planets are in relation to each other on the ecliptic path. This is why the full Moon in constellations are important in locating the time of year and the season regulated by the Sun, because the full Moon is very bright and easy to pick out even on some cloudy nights. What is interesting is that the asterisms are not uniform in their size and space they take up, so by knowing this and being able to locate the brightest ones above it becomes easier to single out planetary positions in relation to these asterisms. How do you think they were able to locate the exact positions, it would be interesting to share what we know. best wishes M Original Message ----- gupta089 Thursday, November 15, 2007 4:10 AM Re: Horoscope of Lord Rama/Vachaspati Dear Marg Can u explain how without the aid of telescope ancient people used to see and calculate exact position of planets Dhananjay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 15, 2007 Report Share Posted November 15, 2007 Dear Dhananjay and those interested, First of all sorry for untimely mails my server has had Mercury retro.....................:-) I also thought you might enjoy this little method employed by many ancient astrologers to locate planetary positions exactly. Chinese astrologers, and perhaps others we haven't yet found out about, though I suspect the Egyptians too, use Ursa Major to tell the time. First of all locate the constellation at a specific date and time and note which architectural feature near your home the 'handle' is pointing to. Ursa Major revolves around the sky once a day but gives a total rotation once a year, so by watching it daily you can note the movement carefully yourself. The position moves just short of one degree every four minutes, and one degree is about twice the width of the full moon, so it gives a quarter of a revolution every six hours. The position will have shifted one degree each day at the same time, or a quarter turn every three months. Over one lifetime this doesn't alter significantly, but over many millennia precession affects it radically which is why there is a need to keep watching which star is nearest the north pole, and changing the constellation you use in order to tell the time. As I mentioned earlier it takes 4800 years for Thuban to shift its location and give way to Polaris at the North Pole. The total years for this precession of the North to South constellational path is 25920 years, and it would affect which constellations are visible above or below the horizon, also our clock times would be out of synchrony with sun rising and setting times. For instance in year 2500 9 o clock would be the new twelve o clock! I also believe this is the method ancient astrologers used to give predictions about the destiny of nations, and of the earth itself. best wishes M Original Message ----- gupta089 Thursday, November 15, 2007 4:10 AM Re: Horoscope of Lord Rama/Vachaspati Dear Marg Can u explain how without the aid of telescope ancient people used to see and calculate exact position of planets Dhananjay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 15, 2007 Report Share Posted November 15, 2007 I HAVE ONE PROBLEM MY MESSAGES ARE POSTED MUCH AFTER I SEND. Interesting Marg Interesting. thnks for the reply People think that i argue very much, this u also must have noticed when i was dealing with " past Karma and present Bhagya " in this group. But i am in search of truth. It does not matter for me who first invented zodiac and nakshatra or who is superior or who is inferior or which ascendent is most perfect. Indians defeated and pushed back the Alexander the Great, who suffered heavy loses. As we ordinary people believe that ancient seers in Vedic period possesed (Divya Dhristi)ie super- natural sight through which they used to see exact position of planets & nakshatra anywhere anytime. It is true that Indians were very briliant in mathematics in the past and they must have divided the zodiac in 12 division and further into many divisions. which is easy task. AS we can today, they were also able to map Sun Moon & Nakshatras in the sky and calculate their motion. But it seems impossible to locate the planets which do not emit light & then do calculation for their exact path without the aid of telescope, much earlier the birth of Christ. What do u think Waiting for reply of other members also. Regards Dhananjay , " Marg " <margie9 wrote: > > Dear Dhananjay and those interested, > > First of all sorry for untimely mails my server has had Mercury retro.....................:-) > > I also thought you might enjoy this little method employed by many ancient astrologers to locate planetary positions exactly. > > Chinese astrologers, and perhaps others we haven't yet found out about, though I suspect the Egyptians too, use Ursa Major to tell the time. > First of all locate the constellation at a specific date and time and note which architectural feature near your home the 'handle' is pointing to. > > Ursa Major revolves around the sky once a day but gives a total rotation once a year, so by watching it daily you can note the movement carefully yourself. > > The position moves just short of one degree every four minutes, and one degree is about twice the width of the full moon, so it gives a quarter of a revolution every six hours. The position will have shifted one degree each day at the same time, or a quarter turn every three months. > > Over one lifetime this doesn't alter significantly, but over many millennia precession affects it radically which is why there is a need to keep watching which star is nearest the north pole, and changing the constellation you use in order to tell the time. > > As I mentioned earlier it takes 4800 years for Thuban to shift its location and give way to Polaris at the North Pole. The total years for this precession of the North to South constellational path is 25920 years, and it would affect which constellations are visible above or below the horizon, also our clock times would be out of synchrony with sun rising and setting times. For instance in year 2500 9 o clock would be the new twelve o clock! > > I also believe this is the method ancient astrologers used to give predictions about the destiny of nations, and of the earth itself. > best wishes > M > Original Message ----- > gupta089 > > Thursday, November 15, 2007 4:10 AM > Re: Horoscope of Lord Rama/Vachaspati > > Dear Marg > Can u explain how without the aid of telescope > ancient people used to see and calculate exact > position of planets > > Dhananjay > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 15, 2007 Report Share Posted November 15, 2007 Dear Marg, what are the books you are following? kishore patnaik 98492 70729 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 15, 2007 Report Share Posted November 15, 2007 // but even in Valmiki's day this may have become a little clouded. // Sorry anybody, I do not mean to interfere in this thread. Nor wish to offend any one , neither the querist nor the replier. But loose statements have to be deleted . Neither in Valmikis days was this clouded and neither in todays days. We wish to understand something for which we need to have our own clouded mind cleared, instead of presumtions and wild guesses, and making statements that understanding of these terms, would have been clouded in Valmikis days even. Sanskrit is not a ordinary language to be just learnt like abcd. One has to spend many decades to have a good knowledge of the same. Because we dont understand does not give us a right to call people of one section or one time as clouded or incoherent . There are so many words sounding same, meaning same in majority, but all having seperate demarcation lines, where the exact meaning is to be professed. Vak (Vaka) Vakam Vakyam Vacha Vach Vachyam Vachak Vachanam Vachik Vachya I have not listed many more words here, and neither listed another hundrd words which can be added to above and made another word, revealing different meanings. I can give meanings of most above words by heart without referring Sanskrit texts, or grammar books because they form a part of our culture. Thus please do not call any people of Valmikis time as Clouded brains.It is ones own mind which may be limited in understanding, but not the language you are referring to, and neither the people of ancient times, born in era of Sage Valmiki and our Lord Shri Rama. regards, Bhaskar. , " Marg " <margie9 wrote: > > Hi Pradeep, > > Thanks ever so much for this thoughtful reply, it was very kind of you > to take the time to write all that. > I'm sure as you say that there is a lot more to it, there usually is:-) > I did think there might be a subtle difference between Vak and Vaka, > but even in Valmiki's day this may have become a little clouded. > best wishes > Margaret > > - > vijayadas_pradeep > > Wednesday, November 14, 2007 4:30 PM > Re: Horoscope of Lord Rama/Vachaspati > > > Dear Ms.Margaret > > Sorry for the delay due to other priorities. > The question is not simple.The answer can go very deep and hence i > need time. > > But i can give views. > In my daily parlance(Mothertongue) - Vacha and Vak are used as > synonymns.(Vachanam and Vak).They in literal sense means word and > vachana can mean divine word as well. > > I tried to check classics(Varahamihira Hora) and translation of > Vacha was given as Vak.Thus they can mean the same. > > But Vak can have higher meanings as it can also point to the very > root or origin source of knowledge.Astrologers do pray to > get ''Vak'' as a boon before starting any work. > > Brihaspati has Karakatwa over 2nd house and as per Upanishads mouth > has some principle which cannot be destroyed by demons.This can be > loosely termed as Fire principle.The mouth of Vaiswanara - Horse is > also linked to Fire.Thus Vak is not a mere word when we go deep. > Thus Mercury and Jupiter can point to two aspects of Knowledge.One > being the Vak itself and the other being the Pati or lord. > Vacha-Vachaspati. > Vag-Devatha Saraswati rides a Swan(Hamsa).Hamsa has links with > Jupiter.Similarly Mercury's placement in 2nd is also considered for > Saraswati Yoga.Thus both are related to Vag or Vacha,but through > different tattwas.Now sages have placed Mercury under Vacha and > Jupiter under Vachaspati.Translations (ancient one) do equate Vacha > with Vak.Thus Vachaspati can be Vakapati is my understanding or > conclusion. > > They have a common root is the essence.I have to admit that i need > to study more and your question is not that simple.Hope the answer > is sufficient:-). > > Regds > Pradeep > > , " Marg " <margie9@> wrote: > > > > Thanks Pradeep. > > I understand Vacha is synonym for Mercury, but the word was Vak, > are the two the same? Vak means Vacha? > > - > > vijayadas_pradeep > > > > Sunday, November 11, 2007 4:25 PM > > Re: Horoscope of Lord Rama/Vachaspati > > > > > > Dear Ms Margaret and Mr.Patnaik > > > > Vacha is a synonymn for Mercury while Vachaspati points to > Jupiter. > > Thus Vak is Mercury and Vakpati is Brihaspati.Angiras,Sura > Guru,Vachas > > pati etc are for Guru). > > > > Hope this helps. > > > > Regds > > Pradeep > > > > , " Marg " <margie9@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi > > > > > > Thank you for the reply Kishore but I would like to add > another view. > > > > > > The translation you give seems to imply that it is not > intended to > > convey that Vak's ruleC is positively conjunct the Moon. Could > it not > > also imply that the lord of Vak is rising within the moon's > vicinity > > as lagna rises in purnavasu, and this would then allow Venus in > the > > vicinity as lord of Vak. I also understand that Vak is voice, not > > speech, so still feel that Venus is a contender, and don't > understand > > the reasoning behind Jupiter being chosen to be significator of > Vak, > > sorry if this upsets anyone, but I am willing to look at any > evidence > > for your 'tradition' of Vak's lord from classics. > > > Is it being taken as inarguable that the zodiac had been fully > > defined and was being used in vedic times? I thought that the > vedas > > had no reference to the formal divisions of the nakshatras as > used in > > jyotish, and that the Moon merely pointing to Aditi alone, > rather than > > being in any ''pada'' was the way the vedas would refer to > > constellational influences? This is why I asked about the merits > of > > the source you quoted. > > > Does the reading really imply moon is in purnavasu or is it > just > > telling us that this is the constellation which is rising at the > time > > Rama is born? It was the constellation rising which was > considered > > important in vedic times surely, and divisions of nakshatras > were a > > later development. > > > Abhijit being employed in the manner you suggest is also a > modern > > practise surely.I'm quoting an expert astronomer here who is > saying > > there were originally 28 nakshatras in vedic times, not 27: > > > ''One of the original nakshatras had to be deleted. This could > not > > be done easily as the Vedas are considered to be 'Apourusheya' > and no > > liberties are allowed. hence perhaps Abhijit was declared to be > an > > imaginary nakshatra meant only for phala'' > > > This is another reason I am asking who and how old the source > of > > your quote is? > > > I am sure that by reading Rama yourself you will find out more > than > > I can convey in an e mail, my version is translated by > Rajagopalachari > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > kishore patnaik > > > > > > Sunday, November 11, 2007 12:50 PM > > > Re: Horoscope of Lord Rama > > > > > > > > > Dear Marg, > > > > > > Good to read your mail. > > > > > > Bad things first: > > > > > > 1. Mercury or Venus can not conjuct with moon on a navami day. > > This is so > > > since the sun maintains a distance of 96 degrees or > more ,whereas > > Mercury > > > can not be more than 28 degrees away from sun and venus, 72 > > degrees- thus > > > venus has some chance if the moon is in the last degrees of a > sign > > but here > > > moon is in the very beginning of the cancer. Hence, it has got > to be > > > jupiter. Btw, traditionally vakpati means mercury and not > venus. > > > > > > 2. Abhijit lagna is that muhurtha during which the noon > falls.It > > starts at > > > the end of 7.5 muhurtha after the sun rise and goes on till 8.5 > > muhurtha. As > > > every other muhurtha, it lasts for 48 minutes. So, there is > every > > > possibility that Rama was born in abhijeet muhurtha with sun in > > pisces and > > > lagna falling in cancer > > > > > > Now, the good things: > > > > > > 1. Great to see that you are now trying to interpret the > cosmological > > > meaning of the slokas Please keep it up I will catch up if I > find > > a spark > > > 2. I do not know about relation between trisanku and rama's > birth, > > though > > > trisanku was indeed rama's ancestor and was tried to be sent to > > Heavens > > > bodily by Viswamitra who again played a big role during Rama's > times. > > > Please fill me up. > > > > > > Thnks for the mail once again,. > > > > > > Kishore patnaik > > > 98492 70729 > > > > > > On 11/11/07, Marg <margie9@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Kishore > > > > Please would you identify the source of your information? > > > > I have just re read the mail you sent with the interpretation > > in, and > > > > would like query that the ruler of Vak is Jupiter or Mercury? > > > > Vak is voice, voice is ruled by Taurus, Venus rules Taurus, > so > > Venus as > > > > ruler of vak must be in first house with the Moon. > > > > Voice is different to speech , a third house affair, which is > > ruled by > > > > Mercury. One can have vak or voice, but no speech. Venus > Lord of > > Vak would > > > > therefore appear to be in Cancer in the ascendant surely? > > > > Also the reference to abhijijit is a little obscure. Isn't > abhijit > > > > employed as an intercalary adjustment to align the sun with > the > > moon's > > > > motion? If abhijit is being referred to is it directing > > attention to an > > > > adjustment to nomral motion being made,which might affect the > > expected usual > > > > distance between sun and moon on navami? > > > > Out of interest sake I just re read the opening of Ramayana, > a > > brilliant > > > > epic, and realised that the epoch at which Rama is born is > > during the > > > > creation of constellations in the southern path by Trisanku, > > king of the > > > > solar dynasty.In fact the birth of Ram and his brothers is an > > allegory of > > > > the creation of Aries, Taurus and the twins Gemini don't you > think? > > > > > > > > best wishes > > > > Margaret > > > > > > > > Sunday, November 04, 2007 9:24 AM > > > > Horoscope of Lord Rama > > > > > > > > Dear all, > > > > > > > > I am looking at the horoscope of Sri Rama for the past few > days. > > I am > > > > giving below the slokas connected with > > > > the birth : > > > > > > > > tato yaj~ne samaapte tu R^itUnaam SaT samatyayuH | > > > > tataH ca dvaadashe maase chaitre naavamike tithau || 1-18-8 > > > > nakxatre aditi daivatye sva ucCha sa.nstheShu pa.nchasu | > > > > graheShu kar.hkaTe lagne vaakpataa i.ndunaa saha || 1-18-9 > > > > prodyamaane jagannaatham sarva loka namaskR^itam | > > > > kausalyaa ajanayat raamam sarva lakSaNa sa.myutam || 1-18-10 > > > > viSNoH ardham mahaabhaagam putram aixvaaku na.ndanam | > > > > lohitaaksham mahaabaahum rak{}ta oSTam du.ndubhi svanam || 1- > 18-11 > > > > > > > > 8, 9, 10, 11. tataH yaj~ne samaapte= then, ritual, on > completion; > > > > R^ituuNaam > > > > SaT sam atyayuH= seasons, six, well, passed by; tataH= then; > > dvaadashe > > > > maase= in twelfth, month; chaitre naavamike tithau= chaitra > month > > > > [April-May], ninth, day; nakshatre aditi daivatye= star of > the day > > > > [punarvasu,] [whose presiding is] Aditi; panchasu graheSu > swa uccha > > > > samstheshu= of five, planets, in their own, highest, > positing; > > karkaTe > > > > lagne= in Cancer [of Zodiac]; vaak patiH indunaa saha= when > > Speech's, Lord > > > > [Jupiter,] is [with] Moon, along with; pra udyamane= when > > raising � > > > > ascending, advancing daytime � abhijit lagna; kausalyaa= > Queen > > Kausalya; > > > > jagat naatham= worlds', lord [Vishnu]; sarva loka > namaskR^itam= > > by all, > > > > worlds, adored; divya lakshana samyutam= divine, attributes, > > along with; > > > > viSNoH= Vishnu's; artham= epitome of [not half of Vishnu]; > mahaa > > bhaagam= > > > > greatly blessed one; ikshwaaku nandanam= Ikshvaaku dynasty, > > delight of; > > > > lohita aksham= lotus-red, eyes; mahaa baahum= lengthy, armed; > > rakta oSTam= > > > > roseate, lips; dundubhi svanam= drumbeat, voiced; raamam= > Rama > > as; putram= > > > > the son; ajanayat= gave birth. > > > > > > > > if you carefully look at this, the following are clear: > > > > > > > > 1. The birth occured in chaitra masa on the tithi of Navami > > > > 2. The birth occured in Punarvasu nakshatra > > > > 3. The lagna is Cancer > > > > 4. Moon is in lagna > > > > > > > > The following two points are to be discussed. > > > > > > > > 1. here, the planet with which moon is there is said to be > > vakpati. Is it > > > > Mercury or Jupiter? Obviously, he is Jupiter since Mercury > could > > not be > > > > with Moon on a Navami day. > > > > > > > > 2. The five planets mentioned here are either in swa (own) or > > > > uccha(exalted) > > > > positions. It should not be taken that there are five planets > > which are in > > > > exaltation, which seems to be popular refrain > > > > > > > > 3. These five planets are Moon, Mars, Jupiter, Venus and > Saturn. > > While the > > > > sloka fixes the places of Moon and Jupiter, the other three > > planets places > > > > can be fixed only by discussion > > > > > > > > 4. Clearly, Sun can not be in exaltation when Moon is in > cancer on a > > > > navami > > > > day. The distance between moon and sun should be more than > 108 > > degrees. > > > > hence, the place of sun also can be fixed to pisces. Thus, > the > > place of > > > > mercury is to be bound by three rasis- aqua, pisces or aries. > > > > > > > > Hence, I would post my reasoning of planetary positions after > > hearing from > > > > all of you. > > > > > > > > with best regards, > > > > > > > > kishore patnaik > > > > 98492 70729 > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 15, 2007 Report Share Posted November 15, 2007 Dear Kishore The Chinese technique for following time by anchoring the plough to a focal point on earth I got from a book on Chinese astrology by Derek Walters--very interesting. The Egyptian astrology I've been following for some time over the years as the asterisms they used, as well as other cultures, are very similarly represented on ancient archaeological finds like in tombs and in pyramids. Also in Ireland they have an ancient cave with similar recordings of moon patterns and cycles which have not yet been decisively dated but go back millennia. Not sure if this was the reply you were interested in? As for my own theory that the north south constellational precession is crucial to understanding the varying epochs of man and earth, this has been evolving over some years now, and is not found in any particular book I have read to be honest, though I have read many of the great ancient classics from varying cultures. This is why I felt the Rama topic is interesting. The epic poem no matter who it is translated by, echoes of more profound truths based upon factual evolutionary events, rather than mere myth and legends, same as Arjuna and the Mahabharata. I do feel that many so called legends trivialised as mere religious beliefs by archaeologists and many academics down the centuries, are much more than ''ancient primitive people's worshipping gods.'' This has been the tragedy of truth down the ages that someone invests religious beliefs into something, instead of realising its true nature and value, and then destroys it or pours scorn on it, so damaging the handing down of important universal understandings. Most important I have been studying astronomy above everything else. best wishes margaret - kishore patnaik Thursday, November 15, 2007 3:41 PM Re: Fw: Re: Horoscope of Lord Rama/Vachaspati Dear Marg, what are the books you are following? kishore patnaik 98492 70729 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 16, 2007 Report Share Posted November 16, 2007 Hi Dhananjay I would be interested to hear of any other method also. I do think it is very easy to understand the motion and path of the planets without a telescope. All you have to do it look at the sky, know the sky, its seasons and its cyclic motions. The fact that some stars are not so bright is not a problem. The full moon is a good marker for planetary pathways and this is perhaps why it was singled out as a key marker for events. best wishes m - gupta089 Thursday, November 15, 2007 2:45 PM Fw: Re: Horoscope of Lord Rama/Vachaspati I HAVE ONE PROBLEM MY MESSAGES ARE POSTED MUCH AFTER I SEND. Interesting Marg Interesting. thnks for the reply People think that i argue very much, this u also must have noticed when i was dealing with " past Karma and present Bhagya " in this group. But i am in search of truth. It does not matter for me who first invented zodiac and nakshatra or who is superior or who is inferior or which ascendent is most perfect. Indians defeated and pushed back the Alexander the Great, who suffered heavy loses. As we ordinary people believe that ancient seers in Vedic period possesed (Divya Dhristi)ie super- natural sight through which they used to see exact position of planets & nakshatra anywhere anytime. It is true that Indians were very briliant in mathematics in the past and they must have divided the zodiac in 12 division and further into many divisions. which is easy task. AS we can today, they were also able to map Sun Moon & Nakshatras in the sky and calculate their motion. But it seems impossible to locate the planets which do not emit light & then do calculation for their exact path without the aid of telescope, much earlier the birth of Christ. What do u think Waiting for reply of other members also. Regards Dhananjay , " Marg " <margie9 wrote: > > Dear Dhananjay and those interested, > > First of all sorry for untimely mails my server has had Mercury retro.....................:-) > > I also thought you might enjoy this little method employed by many ancient astrologers to locate planetary positions exactly. > > Chinese astrologers, and perhaps others we haven't yet found out about, though I suspect the Egyptians too, use Ursa Major to tell the time. > First of all locate the constellation at a specific date and time and note which architectural feature near your home the 'handle' is pointing to. > > Ursa Major revolves around the sky once a day but gives a total rotation once a year, so by watching it daily you can note the movement carefully yourself. > > The position moves just short of one degree every four minutes, and one degree is about twice the width of the full moon, so it gives a quarter of a revolution every six hours. The position will have shifted one degree each day at the same time, or a quarter turn every three months. > > Over one lifetime this doesn't alter significantly, but over many millennia precession affects it radically which is why there is a need to keep watching which star is nearest the north pole, and changing the constellation you use in order to tell the time. > > As I mentioned earlier it takes 4800 years for Thuban to shift its location and give way to Polaris at the North Pole. The total years for this precession of the North to South constellational path is 25920 years, and it would affect which constellations are visible above or below the horizon, also our clock times would be out of synchrony with sun rising and setting times. For instance in year 2500 9 o clock would be the new twelve o clock! > > I also believe this is the method ancient astrologers used to give predictions about the destiny of nations, and of the earth itself. > best wishes > M > > > > > > > > Original Message ----- > gupta089 > > Thursday, November 15, 2007 4:10 AM > Re: Horoscope of Lord Rama/Vachaspati > > Dear Marg > Can u explain how without the aid of telescope > ancient people used to see and calculate exact > position of planets > > Dhananjay > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 16, 2007 Report Share Posted November 16, 2007 Dear Tarunji, Sorry for the delay in reply. I thank you for the well meant advise. Never underestimate the power of very stupid people in large groups. They cany repair their brakes, so they make their horns louder. I know many people in this world are here to full other gullible foolish innocent people. This is why the world exists. If all were good, then how could duality exist. I normally dont enter threads where I dont have knowledge, or they are conversing on silly topics, but when it comes to religion, or vedic astrology which both we are practising, then being present one is duty bound to make corrections, if he is a real devotee of His Lord, which I normally do, otherwise we have enough troubles of our own, to create or enter new ones. Most of these chaps want to become famous by talking something spectacular like the example you gave, but unfortunately TV Shows are not live, and if invited I could take them to task properly. There is another Famous numerologist who practises with his wife, and who cant sit properly too decently and always speaks with a sly grin. What he does, any 10th std.pass can do after reading few books.There are many such people on TV Shows, astrologers, Tarot card readers etc. and most of them are fakes. You ask them to predict and they will be looking sideways. But this is the world. Dont we have many fakes on Forum too ? Unfortunatelly for us and fortunately for them, I have better work to do, otherwise I would have exposed all these hoodwinkers by now. best wishes, Bhaskar. , " Tarun " <tarun.virgo wrote: > > Dear Bhaskar ji, > > Why to debate with those who are just annoying the topic. > > One person from chennai developed some software and quoted that > Prabhu Shri Ram was borned on 10th janurary 5100 BC. > i donot know what the way he followed , but it was coming on Star > news. > > So manipulation and giving fire to topics is a measure to obtain > popularity. > > If we start to question on existence of Christian base of God and > other topics, no one would be able to answer. > > Regards, > > Tarun > > > > , " Bhaskar " <bhaskar_jyotish@> > wrote: > > > > You are not talking astrology here, but > > trying to prove that Indians borrowed words > > from other civilisations. > > So what is there about it I cant understand. > > Mixture of cultures is nothing new, and so > > is language, but this certainly does > > not imply that the knowledge of asterisms > > was taken from some outer influence. > > Period. > > > > Bhaskar. > > > > > > > > , " Bhaskar " <bhaskar_jyotish@> > > wrote: > > > > > > What a intelligent way to explore topics in a > > > more informative and intelligent way. > > > > > > What a intelligent thread and topic to open, the > > > outcome of which would increase > > > our astrological level to a super level (???) > > > > > > First your friend raja opens a stupid thread and then backs > > > out saying that he had written it hurriedly. > > > In the meanwhile you express your love, by supporting him > > > and declaring that the Chinese already knew about the 28 > > > asterisms thousands of years ago, and they have been > > > using it since them. On asking you to support this > > > declaration with some authentic proof, and your inability > > > to produce the same, you jump on some other silly topic , > > > so that we forget your past stupid declarations. > > > > > > You are asking us why Valmiki gives reference to Karka ? > > > You never paused to think that we could also ask you why > > > Moses was named as he was in the Bible, and why > > > The Last Supper was named so, or why the > > > Holy Spirit is mentioned so, or why Virgin Mary > > > was mentioned so, when Lord Jesus Christ was....... > > > > > > Now listen Margaret, dont stir up a hornets nest by > > > talking rubbish here. > > > Do not try any conversions here or try to confuse > > > the devout religious astrologers over here. Take your > > > baggage somewhere else with this filth.and > > > You are quite obvious in You anti Hindu stance. > > > > > > Tomorrow you would ask us why the Greeks use > > > " Padre " word for Father or " Madre " for mother. > > > By reading few books do not try to appear as > > > knowledgable where there is none and only thrash > > > exists. > > > > > > Anyway what are you trying to prove by these > > > senseless queries ? Your little knowledge of > > > Sanskrit which is non-existent ? > > > You should have done some homework > > > before putting this post here instead of looking > > > utterly stupid. > > > > > > Now for your benefit, after which I expect you > > > to whamoosh with your dirty baggage ,please. > > > > > > Sanskrit Meanings for " Karka " > > > 1) Crab > > > 2) Cancer ,the 4th sign of the Zodiac. > > > 3) Fire. > > > 4) A water jar. > > > 5) A mirror. > > > 6) A white horse. > > > > > > Now dont ask us another silly question > > > as to why in this particular shloka > > > Karka means Cancer. > > > > > > There is another word " Karkata " > > > with similiar meanings but add > > > one more meaning to it > > > 1) A compass, circuit. > > > > > > Okay You got the meanings. Now what great discovery > > > are you upto or some light dawning on us with some > > > super revelation by Your Smart self ? > > > > > > panaphera, apoklima and kendra are Sanskrit or not ? > > > What difference does it make ? > > > A rose would remain a Rose by > > > whatever name You call it. > > > What are you trying to arrive at here ? > > > > > > Next time please come > > > with useful posts on astrology, > > > which actually help the Science and the practising > > > astrologers, and do not open up confusions or > > > controversies. > > > > > > Bhaskar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Marg " <margie9@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Glad to hear from all those who also want to explore this > topic > > in > > > a more informative and intelligent way. > > > > First of all I'd be interested to know why the sanskrit > > translation > > > of Valmikis includes a reference to Karke? > > > > Isn't Kulira the sanskrit term for Cancer? > > > > Isn't Karkinos the Greek term for Cancer? > > > > Also can anyone with knowledge of sanskrit confirm that the > > > following are actually sanskrit:- panaphera, apoklima and kendra? > > > > best wishes > > > > M > > > > > > > > - > > > > Raja Gursahani > > > > > > > > Wednesday, November 14, 2007 3:47 PM > > > > Re: Horoscope of Lord Rama/Vachaspati > > > > > > > > > > > > yes marg, the reason for the inquiry is this, I believe that > a > > > group of > > > > astrologers has a better chance at coming to sound > conclusions > > > then one > > > > person diving into the truth by themselves. if you would > like > > > please read > > > > the following book which how I have come to this conclusion > ( > > the > > > wisdom of > > > > crowds by jame surowiecki) . I am in support of your answer > and > > > rebuttal to > > > > Bhaskar. it appears that the truth is always needed and thus > > even > > > the > > > > greatest astrologer is always learning in his dear course. I > > > would like > > > > Bhaskar to understand that just because he is a leo > ascendant > > > doesn't give > > > > him the power to control others as he really seems to think > > that > > > the leo > > > > ascendant can control others. I guess he can't see the light > > > because if he > > > > could, he would realize that the leo ascendant is not > > controlling > > > this > > > > situation. instead this ascendant manifestation is trying to > > > bully us into > > > > submission. so please marg feel free to comment on this > forum > > in > > > such a > > > > manner so that it brings life to others who feel that this > > forum > > > has lost > > > > its egalitarianism as well as democracy and instead is > dictated > > > by a > > > > totalitarian figure. actually if he was a normal astrologer > and > > > individual > > > > he would just ignore the discussion and carry on his own > > > discussion, but > > > > instead he leaves emails for everyone in this group as if he > > has > > > been given > > > > the right to participate in such a vile manner. If he > continues > > > to act like > > > > this child who has not been disciplined then well surely the > > > group will > > > > convene in naturally and discipline him. > > > > > > > > sincerely, > > > > > > > > ________ > > > > > > > > Raja G. Gursahani > > > > *: 314.761.3134 (Clovis, CA) > > > > *: rajagursahani(atgmail.com) > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 16, 2007 Report Share Posted November 16, 2007 Respected Marg It is good for us that u are member of this group. An astronomer in u is present here. Ihave very little knowledge of astronomy, so I am dependent on you. Iwant to know just for my satisfaction because my mind do not allow me to take any thing for granted. Do u think that it was possible for people 2000 or 3000 years before Christ without using special Dhristi or telescope to observe faraway planets such as Sat. for astrological purpose. Ones i read that ancient people do not know about retrogate planets or they had some doubt. Since u have scientific knowledge of astronomy, just say yes or no and i will accept it. What i mean to say that if suppose i start watching sky (with some basic knowledge and assumption) without telescope and continue it for years recording each and every data about the planets and nakashtras then at last will i be able to cast horoscope or develop panchang Suggest me some books on astronomy. Regards Dhananjay , " Marg " <margie9 wrote: > > Hi Dhananjay > I would be interested to hear of any other method also. > > I do think it is very easy to understand the motion and path of the planets without a telescope. All you have to do it look at the sky, know the sky, its seasons and its cyclic motions. The fact that some stars are not so bright is not a problem. > The full moon is a good marker for planetary pathways and this is perhaps why it was singled out as a key marker for events. > best wishes > m > - > gupta089 > > Thursday, November 15, 2007 2:45 PM > Fw: Re: Horoscope of Lord Rama/Vachaspati > > > I HAVE ONE PROBLEM MY MESSAGES ARE POSTED > MUCH AFTER I SEND. > > Interesting Marg > Interesting. > thnks for the reply > People think that i argue very much, this u also > must have noticed when i was dealing with " past > Karma and present Bhagya " in this group. > But i am in search of truth. > It does not matter for me who first invented > zodiac and nakshatra or who is superior or who > is inferior or which ascendent is most perfect. > Indians defeated and pushed back the Alexander > the Great, who suffered heavy loses. > > As we ordinary people believe that ancient seers > in Vedic period possesed (Divya Dhristi)ie super- > natural sight through which they used to see exact > position of planets & nakshatra anywhere anytime. > It is true that Indians were very briliant in > mathematics in the past and they must have divided > the zodiac in 12 division and further into many divisions. > which is easy task. > AS we can today, they were also able to map Sun Moon > & Nakshatras in the sky and calculate their motion. > But it seems impossible to locate the planets > which do not emit light & then do calculation for > their exact path without the aid of telescope, > much earlier the birth of Christ. > > What do u think > Waiting for reply of other members also. > Regards > Dhananjay > > , " Marg " <margie9@> wrote: > > > > Dear Dhananjay and those interested, > > > > First of all sorry for untimely mails my server has had Mercury > retro.....................:-) > > > > I also thought you might enjoy this little method employed by many > ancient astrologers to locate planetary positions exactly. > > > > Chinese astrologers, and perhaps others we haven't yet found out > about, though I suspect the Egyptians too, use Ursa Major to tell the > time. > > First of all locate the constellation at a specific date and time > and note which architectural feature near your home the 'handle' is > pointing to. > > > > Ursa Major revolves around the sky once a day but gives a total > rotation once a year, so by watching it daily you can note the > movement carefully yourself. > > > > The position moves just short of one degree every four minutes, and > one degree is about twice the width of the full moon, so it gives a > quarter of a revolution every six hours. The position will have > shifted one degree each day at the same time, or a quarter turn every > three months. > > > > Over one lifetime this doesn't alter significantly, but over many > millennia precession affects it radically which is why there is a > need to keep watching which star is nearest the north pole, and > changing the constellation you use in order to tell the time. > > > > As I mentioned earlier it takes 4800 years for Thuban to shift its > location and give way to Polaris at the North Pole. The total years > for this precession of the North to South constellational path is > 25920 years, and it would affect which constellations are visible > above or below the horizon, also our clock times would be out of > synchrony with sun rising and setting times. For instance in year > 2500 9 o clock would be the new twelve o clock! > > > > I also believe this is the method ancient astrologers used to give > predictions about the destiny of nations, and of the earth itself. > > best wishes > > M > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Original Message ----- > > gupta089 > > > > Thursday, November 15, 2007 4:10 AM > > Re: Horoscope of Lord Rama/Vachaspati > > > > Dear Marg > > Can u explain how without the aid of telescope > > ancient people used to see and calculate exact > > position of planets > > > > Dhananjay > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 16, 2007 Report Share Posted November 16, 2007 Dear Ms Margaret Thanks for the reply. Here are some more thoughts which came to my mind.5th house is also defined as Vak-Sthana.As we Know Vak originates from Nabhi(Navel) Region and is connected to Saraswati.That comes from mouth is also Vak but the audible form(4th order).This can be termed as Vachana as well as Vak.Perhaps origin of Vak is from Brahma Nabhi while Saraswati is manifested in 2nd.Guru is also the Karaka for the 5th house.The disciple also is represented by 5th house.Thus the effect and the Pathi can be explained from 2nd as well as 5th house. Regds Pradeep , " Marg " <margie9 wrote: > > Hi Pradeep, > > Thanks ever so much for this thoughtful reply, it was very kind of you > to take the time to write all that. > I'm sure as you say that there is a lot more to it, there usually is:-) > I did think there might be a subtle difference between Vak and Vaka, > but even in Valmiki's day this may have become a little clouded. > best wishes > Margaret > > - > vijayadas_pradeep > > Wednesday, November 14, 2007 4:30 PM > Re: Horoscope of Lord Rama/Vachaspati > > > Dear Ms.Margaret > > Sorry for the delay due to other priorities. > The question is not simple.The answer can go very deep and hence i > need time. > > But i can give views. > In my daily parlance(Mothertongue) - Vacha and Vak are used as > synonymns.(Vachanam and Vak).They in literal sense means word and > vachana can mean divine word as well. > > I tried to check classics(Varahamihira Hora) and translation of > Vacha was given as Vak.Thus they can mean the same. > > But Vak can have higher meanings as it can also point to the very > root or origin source of knowledge.Astrologers do pray to > get ''Vak'' as a boon before starting any work. > > Brihaspati has Karakatwa over 2nd house and as per Upanishads mouth > has some principle which cannot be destroyed by demons.This can be > loosely termed as Fire principle.The mouth of Vaiswanara - Horse is > also linked to Fire.Thus Vak is not a mere word when we go deep. > Thus Mercury and Jupiter can point to two aspects of Knowledge.One > being the Vak itself and the other being the Pati or lord. > Vacha-Vachaspati. > Vag-Devatha Saraswati rides a Swan(Hamsa).Hamsa has links with > Jupiter.Similarly Mercury's placement in 2nd is also considered for > Saraswati Yoga.Thus both are related to Vag or Vacha,but through > different tattwas.Now sages have placed Mercury under Vacha and > Jupiter under Vachaspati.Translations (ancient one) do equate Vacha > with Vak.Thus Vachaspati can be Vakapati is my understanding or > conclusion. > > They have a common root is the essence.I have to admit that i need > to study more and your question is not that simple.Hope the answer > is sufficient:-). > > Regds > Pradeep > > , " Marg " <margie9@> wrote: > > > > Thanks Pradeep. > > I understand Vacha is synonym for Mercury, but the word was Vak, > are the two the same? Vak means Vacha? > > - > > vijayadas_pradeep > > > > Sunday, November 11, 2007 4:25 PM > > Re: Horoscope of Lord Rama/Vachaspati > > > > > > Dear Ms Margaret and Mr.Patnaik > > > > Vacha is a synonymn for Mercury while Vachaspati points to > Jupiter. > > Thus Vak is Mercury and Vakpati is Brihaspati.Angiras,Sura > Guru,Vachas > > pati etc are for Guru). > > > > Hope this helps. > > > > Regds > > Pradeep > > > > , " Marg " <margie9@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi > > > > > > Thank you for the reply Kishore but I would like to add > another view. > > > > > > The translation you give seems to imply that it is not > intended to > > convey that Vak's ruleC is positively conjunct the Moon. Could > it not > > also imply that the lord of Vak is rising within the moon's > vicinity > > as lagna rises in purnavasu, and this would then allow Venus in > the > > vicinity as lord of Vak. I also understand that Vak is voice, not > > speech, so still feel that Venus is a contender, and don't > understand > > the reasoning behind Jupiter being chosen to be significator of > Vak, > > sorry if this upsets anyone, but I am willing to look at any > evidence > > for your 'tradition' of Vak's lord from classics. > > > Is it being taken as inarguable that the zodiac had been fully > > defined and was being used in vedic times? I thought that the > vedas > > had no reference to the formal divisions of the nakshatras as > used in > > jyotish, and that the Moon merely pointing to Aditi alone, > rather than > > being in any ''pada'' was the way the vedas would refer to > > constellational influences? This is why I asked about the merits > of > > the source you quoted. > > > Does the reading really imply moon is in purnavasu or is it > just > > telling us that this is the constellation which is rising at the > time > > Rama is born? It was the constellation rising which was > considered > > important in vedic times surely, and divisions of nakshatras > were a > > later development. > > > Abhijit being employed in the manner you suggest is also a > modern > > practise surely.I'm quoting an expert astronomer here who is > saying > > there were originally 28 nakshatras in vedic times, not 27: > > > ''One of the original nakshatras had to be deleted. This could > not > > be done easily as the Vedas are considered to be 'Apourusheya' > and no > > liberties are allowed. hence perhaps Abhijit was declared to be > an > > imaginary nakshatra meant only for phala'' > > > This is another reason I am asking who and how old the source > of > > your quote is? > > > I am sure that by reading Rama yourself you will find out more > than > > I can convey in an e mail, my version is translated by > Rajagopalachari > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > kishore patnaik > > > > > > Sunday, November 11, 2007 12:50 PM > > > Re: Horoscope of Lord Rama > > > > > > > > > Dear Marg, > > > > > > Good to read your mail. > > > > > > Bad things first: > > > > > > 1. Mercury or Venus can not conjuct with moon on a navami day. > > This is so > > > since the sun maintains a distance of 96 degrees or > more ,whereas > > Mercury > > > can not be more than 28 degrees away from sun and venus, 72 > > degrees- thus > > > venus has some chance if the moon is in the last degrees of a > sign > > but here > > > moon is in the very beginning of the cancer. Hence, it has got > to be > > > jupiter. Btw, traditionally vakpati means mercury and not > venus. > > > > > > 2. Abhijit lagna is that muhurtha during which the noon > falls.It > > starts at > > > the end of 7.5 muhurtha after the sun rise and goes on till 8.5 > > muhurtha. As > > > every other muhurtha, it lasts for 48 minutes. So, there is > every > > > possibility that Rama was born in abhijeet muhurtha with sun in > > pisces and > > > lagna falling in cancer > > > > > > Now, the good things: > > > > > > 1. Great to see that you are now trying to interpret the > cosmological > > > meaning of the slokas Please keep it up I will catch up if I > find > > a spark > > > 2. I do not know about relation between trisanku and rama's > birth, > > though > > > trisanku was indeed rama's ancestor and was tried to be sent to > > Heavens > > > bodily by Viswamitra who again played a big role during Rama's > times. > > > Please fill me up. > > > > > > Thnks for the mail once again,. > > > > > > Kishore patnaik > > > 98492 70729 > > > > > > On 11/11/07, Marg <margie9@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Kishore > > > > Please would you identify the source of your information? > > > > I have just re read the mail you sent with the interpretation > > in, and > > > > would like query that the ruler of Vak is Jupiter or Mercury? > > > > Vak is voice, voice is ruled by Taurus, Venus rules Taurus, > so > > Venus as > > > > ruler of vak must be in first house with the Moon. > > > > Voice is different to speech , a third house affair, which is > > ruled by > > > > Mercury. One can have vak or voice, but no speech. Venus > Lord of > > Vak would > > > > therefore appear to be in Cancer in the ascendant surely? > > > > Also the reference to abhijijit is a little obscure. Isn't > abhijit > > > > employed as an intercalary adjustment to align the sun with > the > > moon's > > > > motion? If abhijit is being referred to is it directing > > attention to an > > > > adjustment to nomral motion being made,which might affect the > > expected usual > > > > distance between sun and moon on navami? > > > > Out of interest sake I just re read the opening of Ramayana, > a > > brilliant > > > > epic, and realised that the epoch at which Rama is born is > > during the > > > > creation of constellations in the southern path by Trisanku, > > king of the > > > > solar dynasty.In fact the birth of Ram and his brothers is an > > allegory of > > > > the creation of Aries, Taurus and the twins Gemini don't you > think? > > > > > > > > best wishes > > > > Margaret > > > > > > > > Sunday, November 04, 2007 9:24 AM > > > > Horoscope of Lord Rama > > > > > > > > Dear all, > > > > > > > > I am looking at the horoscope of Sri Rama for the past few > days. > > I am > > > > giving below the slokas connected with > > > > the birth : > > > > > > > > tato yaj~ne samaapte tu R^itUnaam SaT samatyayuH | > > > > tataH ca dvaadashe maase chaitre naavamike tithau || 1-18-8 > > > > nakxatre aditi daivatye sva ucCha sa.nstheShu pa.nchasu | > > > > graheShu kar.hkaTe lagne vaakpataa i.ndunaa saha || 1-18-9 > > > > prodyamaane jagannaatham sarva loka namaskR^itam | > > > > kausalyaa ajanayat raamam sarva lakSaNa sa.myutam || 1-18- 10 > > > > viSNoH ardham mahaabhaagam putram aixvaaku na.ndanam | > > > > lohitaaksham mahaabaahum rak{}ta oSTam du.ndubhi svanam || 1- > 18-11 > > > > > > > > 8, 9, 10, 11. tataH yaj~ne samaapte= then, ritual, on > completion; > > > > R^ituuNaam > > > > SaT sam atyayuH= seasons, six, well, passed by; tataH= then; > > dvaadashe > > > > maase= in twelfth, month; chaitre naavamike tithau= chaitra > month > > > > [April-May], ninth, day; nakshatre aditi daivatye= star of > the day > > > > [punarvasu,] [whose presiding is] Aditi; panchasu graheSu > swa uccha > > > > samstheshu= of five, planets, in their own, highest, > positing; > > karkaTe > > > > lagne= in Cancer [of Zodiac]; vaak patiH indunaa saha= when > > Speech's, Lord > > > > [Jupiter,] is [with] Moon, along with; pra udyamane= when > > raising � > > > > ascending, advancing daytime � abhijit lagna; kausalyaa= > Queen > > Kausalya; > > > > jagat naatham= worlds', lord [Vishnu]; sarva loka > namaskR^itam= > > by all, > > > > worlds, adored; divya lakshana samyutam= divine, attributes, > > along with; > > > > viSNoH= Vishnu's; artham= epitome of [not half of Vishnu]; > mahaa > > bhaagam= > > > > greatly blessed one; ikshwaaku nandanam= Ikshvaaku dynasty, > > delight of; > > > > lohita aksham= lotus-red, eyes; mahaa baahum= lengthy, armed; > > rakta oSTam= > > > > roseate, lips; dundubhi svanam= drumbeat, voiced; raamam= > Rama > > as; putram= > > > > the son; ajanayat= gave birth. > > > > > > > > if you carefully look at this, the following are clear: > > > > > > > > 1. The birth occured in chaitra masa on the tithi of Navami > > > > 2. The birth occured in Punarvasu nakshatra > > > > 3. The lagna is Cancer > > > > 4. Moon is in lagna > > > > > > > > The following two points are to be discussed. > > > > > > > > 1. here, the planet with which moon is there is said to be > > vakpati. Is it > > > > Mercury or Jupiter? Obviously, he is Jupiter since Mercury > could > > not be > > > > with Moon on a Navami day. > > > > > > > > 2. The five planets mentioned here are either in swa (own) or > > > > uccha(exalted) > > > > positions. It should not be taken that there are five planets > > which are in > > > > exaltation, which seems to be popular refrain > > > > > > > > 3. These five planets are Moon, Mars, Jupiter, Venus and > Saturn. > > While the > > > > sloka fixes the places of Moon and Jupiter, the other three > > planets places > > > > can be fixed only by discussion > > > > > > > > 4. Clearly, Sun can not be in exaltation when Moon is in > cancer on a > > > > navami > > > > day. The distance between moon and sun should be more than > 108 > > degrees. > > > > hence, the place of sun also can be fixed to pisces. Thus, > the > > place of > > > > mercury is to be bound by three rasis- aqua, pisces or aries. > > > > > > > > Hence, I would post my reasoning of planetary positions after > > hearing from > > > > all of you. > > > > > > > > with best regards, > > > > > > > > kishore patnaik > > > > 98492 70729 > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 16, 2007 Report Share Posted November 16, 2007 Dear Vijay, Please do not give your own definitions and meaningless interpretations. First try to learn the sastra very faith fully instead of trying to interpret everything that comes your way. You dont seem to be knowing what is brma nabhi, where the Omkara , the pranava emanates from. I hope I am not harsh but it is not a good practice. regards, Kishore patnaik 98492 70729 On Nov 16, 2007 9:17 PM, vijayadas_pradeep <vijayadas_pradeep wrote: > Dear Ms Margaret > > Thanks for the reply. > Here are some more thoughts which came to my mind.5th house is also > defined as Vak-Sthana.As we Know Vak originates from Nabhi(Navel) > Region and is connected to Saraswati.That comes from mouth is also > Vak but the audible form(4th order).This can be termed as Vachana as > well as Vak.Perhaps origin of Vak is from Brahma Nabhi while > Saraswati is manifested in 2nd.Guru is also the Karaka for the 5th > house.The disciple also is represented by 5th house.Thus the effect > and the Pathi can be explained from 2nd as well as 5th house. > > > Regds > Pradeep > > <%40>, > " Marg " <margie9 wrote: > > > > Hi Pradeep, > > > > Thanks ever so much for this thoughtful reply, it was very kind of > you > > to take the time to write all that. > > I'm sure as you say that there is a lot more to it, there usually > is:-) > > I did think there might be a subtle difference between Vak and > Vaka, > > but even in Valmiki's day this may have become a little clouded. > > best wishes > > Margaret > > > > - > > vijayadas_pradeep > > <%40> > > Wednesday, November 14, 2007 4:30 PM > > Re: Horoscope of Lord Rama/Vachaspati > > > > > > Dear Ms.Margaret > > > > Sorry for the delay due to other priorities. > > The question is not simple.The answer can go very deep and hence > i > > need time. > > > > But i can give views. > > In my daily parlance(Mothertongue) - Vacha and Vak are used as > > synonymns.(Vachanam and Vak).They in literal sense means word > and > > vachana can mean divine word as well. > > > > I tried to check classics(Varahamihira Hora) and translation of > > Vacha was given as Vak.Thus they can mean the same. > > > > But Vak can have higher meanings as it can also point to the > very > > root or origin source of knowledge.Astrologers do pray to > > get ''Vak'' as a boon before starting any work. > > > > Brihaspati has Karakatwa over 2nd house and as per Upanishads > mouth > > has some principle which cannot be destroyed by demons.This can > be > > loosely termed as Fire principle.The mouth of Vaiswanara - Horse > is > > also linked to Fire.Thus Vak is not a mere word when we go deep. > > Thus Mercury and Jupiter can point to two aspects of > Knowledge.One > > being the Vak itself and the other being the Pati or lord. > > Vacha-Vachaspati. > > Vag-Devatha Saraswati rides a Swan(Hamsa).Hamsa has links with > > Jupiter.Similarly Mercury's placement in 2nd is also considered > for > > Saraswati Yoga.Thus both are related to Vag or Vacha,but through > > different tattwas.Now sages have placed Mercury under Vacha and > > Jupiter under Vachaspati.Translations (ancient one) do equate > Vacha > > with Vak.Thus Vachaspati can be Vakapati is my understanding or > > conclusion. > > > > They have a common root is the essence.I have to admit that i > need > > to study more and your question is not that simple.Hope the > answer > > is sufficient:-). > > > > Regds > > Pradeep > > > > <%40>, > " Marg " <margie9@> wrote: > > > > > > Thanks Pradeep. > > > I understand Vacha is synonym for Mercury, but the word was > Vak, > > are the two the same? Vak means Vacha? > > > - > > > vijayadas_pradeep > > > <%40> > > > Sunday, November 11, 2007 4:25 PM > > > Re: Horoscope of Lord Rama/Vachaspati > > > > > > > > > Dear Ms Margaret and Mr.Patnaik > > > > > > Vacha is a synonymn for Mercury while Vachaspati points to > > Jupiter. > > > Thus Vak is Mercury and Vakpati is Brihaspati.Angiras,Sura > > Guru,Vachas > > > pati etc are for Guru). > > > > > > Hope this helps. > > > > > > Regds > > > Pradeep > > > > > > <%40>, > " Marg " <margie9@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi > > > > > > > > Thank you for the reply Kishore but I would like to add > > another view. > > > > > > > > The translation you give seems to imply that it is not > > intended to > > > convey that Vak's ruleC is positively conjunct the Moon. Could > > it not > > > also imply that the lord of Vak is rising within the moon's > > vicinity > > > as lagna rises in purnavasu, and this would then allow Venus > in > > the > > > vicinity as lord of Vak. I also understand that Vak is voice, > not > > > speech, so still feel that Venus is a contender, and don't > > understand > > > the reasoning behind Jupiter being chosen to be significator > of > > Vak, > > > sorry if this upsets anyone, but I am willing to look at any > > evidence > > > for your 'tradition' of Vak's lord from classics. > > > > Is it being taken as inarguable that the zodiac had been > fully > > > defined and was being used in vedic times? I thought that the > > vedas > > > had no reference to the formal divisions of the nakshatras as > > used in > > > jyotish, and that the Moon merely pointing to Aditi alone, > > rather than > > > being in any ''pada'' was the way the vedas would refer to > > > constellational influences? This is why I asked about the > merits > > of > > > the source you quoted. > > > > Does the reading really imply moon is in purnavasu or is it > > just > > > telling us that this is the constellation which is rising at > the > > time > > > Rama is born? It was the constellation rising which was > > considered > > > important in vedic times surely, and divisions of nakshatras > > were a > > > later development. > > > > Abhijit being employed in the manner you suggest is also a > > modern > > > practise surely.I'm quoting an expert astronomer here who is > > saying > > > there were originally 28 nakshatras in vedic times, not 27: > > > > ''One of the original nakshatras had to be deleted. This > could > > not > > > be done easily as the Vedas are considered to be 'Apourusheya' > > and no > > > liberties are allowed. hence perhaps Abhijit was declared to > be > > an > > > imaginary nakshatra meant only for phala'' > > > > This is another reason I am asking who and how old the > source > > of > > > your quote is? > > > > I am sure that by reading Rama yourself you will find out > more > > than > > > I can convey in an e mail, my version is translated by > > Rajagopalachari > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > kishore patnaik > > > > <%40> > > > > Sunday, November 11, 2007 12:50 PM > > > > Re: Horoscope of Lord Rama > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Marg, > > > > > > > > Good to read your mail. > > > > > > > > Bad things first: > > > > > > > > 1. Mercury or Venus can not conjuct with moon on a navami > day. > > > This is so > > > > since the sun maintains a distance of 96 degrees or > > more ,whereas > > > Mercury > > > > can not be more than 28 degrees away from sun and venus, 72 > > > degrees- thus > > > > venus has some chance if the moon is in the last degrees of > a > > sign > > > but here > > > > moon is in the very beginning of the cancer. Hence, it has > got > > to be > > > > jupiter. Btw, traditionally vakpati means mercury and not > > venus. > > > > > > > > 2. Abhijit lagna is that muhurtha during which the noon > > falls.It > > > starts at > > > > the end of 7.5 muhurtha after the sun rise and goes on till > 8.5 > > > muhurtha. As > > > > every other muhurtha, it lasts for 48 minutes. So, there is > > every > > > > possibility that Rama was born in abhijeet muhurtha with sun > in > > > pisces and > > > > lagna falling in cancer > > > > > > > > Now, the good things: > > > > > > > > 1. Great to see that you are now trying to interpret the > > cosmological > > > > meaning of the slokas Please keep it up I will catch up if I > > find > > > a spark > > > > 2. I do not know about relation between trisanku and rama's > > birth, > > > though > > > > trisanku was indeed rama's ancestor and was tried to be sent > to > > > Heavens > > > > bodily by Viswamitra who again played a big role during > Rama's > > times. > > > > Please fill me up. > > > > > > > > Thnks for the mail once again,. > > > > > > > > Kishore patnaik > > > > 98492 70729 > > > > > > > > On 11/11/07, Marg <margie9@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Kishore > > > > > Please would you identify the source of your information? > > > > > I have just re read the mail you sent with the > interpretation > > > in, and > > > > > would like query that the ruler of Vak is Jupiter or > Mercury? > > > > > Vak is voice, voice is ruled by Taurus, Venus rules > Taurus, > > so > > > Venus as > > > > > ruler of vak must be in first house with the Moon. > > > > > Voice is different to speech , a third house affair, which > is > > > ruled by > > > > > Mercury. One can have vak or voice, but no speech. Venus > > Lord of > > > Vak would > > > > > therefore appear to be in Cancer in the ascendant surely? > > > > > Also the reference to abhijijit is a little obscure. Isn't > > abhijit > > > > > employed as an intercalary adjustment to align the sun > with > > the > > > moon's > > > > > motion? If abhijit is being referred to is it directing > > > attention to an > > > > > adjustment to nomral motion being made,which might affect > the > > > expected usual > > > > > distance between sun and moon on navami? > > > > > Out of interest sake I just re read the opening of > Ramayana, > > a > > > brilliant > > > > > epic, and realised that the epoch at which Rama is born is > > > during the > > > > > creation of constellations in the southern path by > Trisanku, > > > king of the > > > > > solar dynasty.In fact the birth of Ram and his brothers is > an > > > allegory of > > > > > the creation of Aries, Taurus and the twins Gemini don't > you > > think? > > > > > > > > > > best wishes > > > > > Margaret > > > > > > > > > > Sunday, November 04, 2007 9:24 AM > > > > > Horoscope of Lord Rama > > > > > > > > > > Dear all, > > > > > > > > > > I am looking at the horoscope of Sri Rama for the past few > > days. > > > I am > > > > > giving below the slokas connected with > > > > > the birth : > > > > > > > > > > tato yaj~ne samaapte tu R^itUnaam SaT samatyayuH | > > > > > tataH ca dvaadashe maase chaitre naavamike tithau || 1-18-8 > > > > > nakxatre aditi daivatye sva ucCha sa.nstheShu pa.nchasu | > > > > > graheShu kar.hkaTe lagne vaakpataa i.ndunaa saha || 1-18-9 > > > > > prodyamaane jagannaatham sarva loka namaskR^itam | > > > > > kausalyaa ajanayat raamam sarva lakSaNa sa.myutam || 1-18- > 10 > > > > > viSNoH ardham mahaabhaagam putram aixvaaku na.ndanam | > > > > > lohitaaksham mahaabaahum rak{}ta oSTam du.ndubhi svanam || > 1- > > 18-11 > > > > > > > > > > 8, 9, 10, 11. tataH yaj~ne samaapte= then, ritual, on > > completion; > > > > > R^ituuNaam > > > > > SaT sam atyayuH= seasons, six, well, passed by; tataH= > then; > > > dvaadashe > > > > > maase= in twelfth, month; chaitre naavamike tithau= > chaitra > > month > > > > > [April-May], ninth, day; nakshatre aditi daivatye= star of > > the day > > > > > [punarvasu,] [whose presiding is] Aditi; panchasu graheSu > > swa uccha > > > > > samstheshu= of five, planets, in their own, highest, > > positing; > > > karkaTe > > > > > lagne= in Cancer [of Zodiac]; vaak patiH indunaa saha= when > > > Speech's, Lord > > > > > [Jupiter,] is [with] Moon, along with; pra udyamane= when > > > raising � > > > > > ascending, advancing daytime � abhijit lagna; kausalyaa= > > Queen > > > Kausalya; > > > > > jagat naatham= worlds', lord [Vishnu]; sarva loka > > namaskR^itam= > > > by all, > > > > > worlds, adored; divya lakshana samyutam= divine, > attributes, > > > along with; > > > > > viSNoH= Vishnu's; artham= epitome of [not half of Vishnu]; > > mahaa > > > bhaagam= > > > > > greatly blessed one; ikshwaaku nandanam= Ikshvaaku dynasty, > > > delight of; > > > > > lohita aksham= lotus-red, eyes; mahaa baahum= lengthy, > armed; > > > rakta oSTam= > > > > > roseate, lips; dundubhi svanam= drumbeat, voiced; raamam= > > Rama > > > as; putram= > > > > > the son; ajanayat= gave birth. > > > > > > > > > > if you carefully look at this, the following are clear: > > > > > > > > > > 1. The birth occured in chaitra masa on the tithi of Navami > > > > > 2. The birth occured in Punarvasu nakshatra > > > > > 3. The lagna is Cancer > > > > > 4. Moon is in lagna > > > > > > > > > > The following two points are to be discussed. > > > > > > > > > > 1. here, the planet with which moon is there is said to be > > > vakpati. Is it > > > > > Mercury or Jupiter? Obviously, he is Jupiter since Mercury > > could > > > not be > > > > > with Moon on a Navami day. > > > > > > > > > > 2. The five planets mentioned here are either in swa (own) > or > > > > > uccha(exalted) > > > > > positions. It should not be taken that there are five > planets > > > which are in > > > > > exaltation, which seems to be popular refrain > > > > > > > > > > 3. These five planets are Moon, Mars, Jupiter, Venus and > > Saturn. > > > While the > > > > > sloka fixes the places of Moon and Jupiter, the other three > > > planets places > > > > > can be fixed only by discussion > > > > > > > > > > 4. Clearly, Sun can not be in exaltation when Moon is in > > cancer on a > > > > > navami > > > > > day. The distance between moon and sun should be more than > > 108 > > > degrees. > > > > > hence, the place of sun also can be fixed to pisces. Thus, > > the > > > place of > > > > > mercury is to be bound by three rasis- aqua, pisces or > aries. > > > > > > > > > > Hence, I would post my reasoning of planetary positions > after > > > hearing from > > > > > all of you. > > > > > > > > > > with best regards, > > > > > > > > > > kishore patnaik > > > > > 98492 70729 > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 16, 2007 Report Share Posted November 16, 2007 Dear pradeepji, Please guide which God/Goddess to worship for Rahu pacification ? AND Which God/Goddess to worship for Jupiter pacification ? Please no other member reply this, before Pradeepji replies,and I reply him back. regards/Bhaskar. , " vijayadas_pradeep " <vijayadas_pradeep wrote: > > Dear Ms Margaret > > Thanks for the reply. > Here are some more thoughts which came to my mind.5th house is also > defined as Vak-Sthana.As we Know Vak originates from Nabhi(Navel) > Region and is connected to Saraswati.That comes from mouth is also > Vak but the audible form(4th order).This can be termed as Vachana as > well as Vak.Perhaps origin of Vak is from Brahma Nabhi while > Saraswati is manifested in 2nd.Guru is also the Karaka for the 5th > house.The disciple also is represented by 5th house.Thus the effect > and the Pathi can be explained from 2nd as well as 5th house. > > Regds > Pradeep > > , " Marg " <margie9@> wrote: > > > > Hi Pradeep, > > > > Thanks ever so much for this thoughtful reply, it was very kind of > you > > to take the time to write all that. > > I'm sure as you say that there is a lot more to it, there usually > is:-) > > I did think there might be a subtle difference between Vak and > Vaka, > > but even in Valmiki's day this may have become a little clouded. > > best wishes > > Margaret > > > > - > > vijayadas_pradeep > > > > Wednesday, November 14, 2007 4:30 PM > > Re: Horoscope of Lord Rama/Vachaspati > > > > > > Dear Ms.Margaret > > > > Sorry for the delay due to other priorities. > > The question is not simple.The answer can go very deep and hence > i > > need time. > > > > But i can give views. > > In my daily parlance(Mothertongue) - Vacha and Vak are used as > > synonymns.(Vachanam and Vak).They in literal sense means word > and > > vachana can mean divine word as well. > > > > I tried to check classics(Varahamihira Hora) and translation of > > Vacha was given as Vak.Thus they can mean the same. > > > > But Vak can have higher meanings as it can also point to the > very > > root or origin source of knowledge.Astrologers do pray to > > get ''Vak'' as a boon before starting any work. > > > > Brihaspati has Karakatwa over 2nd house and as per Upanishads > mouth > > has some principle which cannot be destroyed by demons.This can > be > > loosely termed as Fire principle.The mouth of Vaiswanara - Horse > is > > also linked to Fire.Thus Vak is not a mere word when we go deep. > > Thus Mercury and Jupiter can point to two aspects of > Knowledge.One > > being the Vak itself and the other being the Pati or lord. > > Vacha-Vachaspati. > > Vag-Devatha Saraswati rides a Swan(Hamsa).Hamsa has links with > > Jupiter.Similarly Mercury's placement in 2nd is also considered > for > > Saraswati Yoga.Thus both are related to Vag or Vacha,but through > > different tattwas.Now sages have placed Mercury under Vacha and > > Jupiter under Vachaspati.Translations (ancient one) do equate > Vacha > > with Vak.Thus Vachaspati can be Vakapati is my understanding or > > conclusion. > > > > They have a common root is the essence.I have to admit that i > need > > to study more and your question is not that simple.Hope the > answer > > is sufficient:-). > > > > Regds > > Pradeep > > > > , " Marg " <margie9@> wrote: > > > > > > Thanks Pradeep. > > > I understand Vacha is synonym for Mercury, but the word was > Vak, > > are the two the same? Vak means Vacha? > > > - > > > vijayadas_pradeep > > > > > > Sunday, November 11, 2007 4:25 PM > > > Re: Horoscope of Lord Rama/Vachaspati > > > > > > > > > Dear Ms Margaret and Mr.Patnaik > > > > > > Vacha is a synonymn for Mercury while Vachaspati points to > > Jupiter. > > > Thus Vak is Mercury and Vakpati is Brihaspati.Angiras,Sura > > Guru,Vachas > > > pati etc are for Guru). > > > > > > Hope this helps. > > > > > > Regds > > > Pradeep > > > > > > , " Marg " <margie9@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi > > > > > > > > Thank you for the reply Kishore but I would like to add > > another view. > > > > > > > > The translation you give seems to imply that it is not > > intended to > > > convey that Vak's ruleC is positively conjunct the Moon. Could > > it not > > > also imply that the lord of Vak is rising within the moon's > > vicinity > > > as lagna rises in purnavasu, and this would then allow Venus > in > > the > > > vicinity as lord of Vak. I also understand that Vak is voice, > not > > > speech, so still feel that Venus is a contender, and don't > > understand > > > the reasoning behind Jupiter being chosen to be significator > of > > Vak, > > > sorry if this upsets anyone, but I am willing to look at any > > evidence > > > for your 'tradition' of Vak's lord from classics. > > > > Is it being taken as inarguable that the zodiac had been > fully > > > defined and was being used in vedic times? I thought that the > > vedas > > > had no reference to the formal divisions of the nakshatras as > > used in > > > jyotish, and that the Moon merely pointing to Aditi alone, > > rather than > > > being in any ''pada'' was the way the vedas would refer to > > > constellational influences? This is why I asked about the > merits > > of > > > the source you quoted. > > > > Does the reading really imply moon is in purnavasu or is it > > just > > > telling us that this is the constellation which is rising at > the > > time > > > Rama is born? It was the constellation rising which was > > considered > > > important in vedic times surely, and divisions of nakshatras > > were a > > > later development. > > > > Abhijit being employed in the manner you suggest is also a > > modern > > > practise surely.I'm quoting an expert astronomer here who is > > saying > > > there were originally 28 nakshatras in vedic times, not 27: > > > > ''One of the original nakshatras had to be deleted. This > could > > not > > > be done easily as the Vedas are considered to be 'Apourusheya' > > and no > > > liberties are allowed. hence perhaps Abhijit was declared to > be > > an > > > imaginary nakshatra meant only for phala'' > > > > This is another reason I am asking who and how old the > source > > of > > > your quote is? > > > > I am sure that by reading Rama yourself you will find out > more > > than > > > I can convey in an e mail, my version is translated by > > Rajagopalachari > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > kishore patnaik > > > > > > > > Sunday, November 11, 2007 12:50 PM > > > > Re: Horoscope of Lord Rama > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Marg, > > > > > > > > Good to read your mail. > > > > > > > > Bad things first: > > > > > > > > 1. Mercury or Venus can not conjuct with moon on a navami > day. > > > This is so > > > > since the sun maintains a distance of 96 degrees or > > more ,whereas > > > Mercury > > > > can not be more than 28 degrees away from sun and venus, 72 > > > degrees- thus > > > > venus has some chance if the moon is in the last degrees of > a > > sign > > > but here > > > > moon is in the very beginning of the cancer. Hence, it has > got > > to be > > > > jupiter. Btw, traditionally vakpati means mercury and not > > venus. > > > > > > > > 2. Abhijit lagna is that muhurtha during which the noon > > falls.It > > > starts at > > > > the end of 7.5 muhurtha after the sun rise and goes on till > 8.5 > > > muhurtha. As > > > > every other muhurtha, it lasts for 48 minutes. So, there is > > every > > > > possibility that Rama was born in abhijeet muhurtha with sun > in > > > pisces and > > > > lagna falling in cancer > > > > > > > > Now, the good things: > > > > > > > > 1. Great to see that you are now trying to interpret the > > cosmological > > > > meaning of the slokas Please keep it up I will catch up if I > > find > > > a spark > > > > 2. I do not know about relation between trisanku and rama's > > birth, > > > though > > > > trisanku was indeed rama's ancestor and was tried to be sent > to > > > Heavens > > > > bodily by Viswamitra who again played a big role during > Rama's > > times. > > > > Please fill me up. > > > > > > > > Thnks for the mail once again,. > > > > > > > > Kishore patnaik > > > > 98492 70729 > > > > > > > > On 11/11/07, Marg <margie9@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Kishore > > > > > Please would you identify the source of your information? > > > > > I have just re read the mail you sent with the > interpretation > > > in, and > > > > > would like query that the ruler of Vak is Jupiter or > Mercury? > > > > > Vak is voice, voice is ruled by Taurus, Venus rules > Taurus, > > so > > > Venus as > > > > > ruler of vak must be in first house with the Moon. > > > > > Voice is different to speech , a third house affair, which > is > > > ruled by > > > > > Mercury. One can have vak or voice, but no speech. Venus > > Lord of > > > Vak would > > > > > therefore appear to be in Cancer in the ascendant surely? > > > > > Also the reference to abhijijit is a little obscure. Isn't > > abhijit > > > > > employed as an intercalary adjustment to align the sun > with > > the > > > moon's > > > > > motion? If abhijit is being referred to is it directing > > > attention to an > > > > > adjustment to nomral motion being made,which might affect > the > > > expected usual > > > > > distance between sun and moon on navami? > > > > > Out of interest sake I just re read the opening of > Ramayana, > > a > > > brilliant > > > > > epic, and realised that the epoch at which Rama is born is > > > during the > > > > > creation of constellations in the southern path by > Trisanku, > > > king of the > > > > > solar dynasty.In fact the birth of Ram and his brothers is > an > > > allegory of > > > > > the creation of Aries, Taurus and the twins Gemini don't > you > > think? > > > > > > > > > > best wishes > > > > > Margaret > > > > > > > > > > Sunday, November 04, 2007 9:24 AM > > > > > Horoscope of Lord Rama > > > > > > > > > > Dear all, > > > > > > > > > > I am looking at the horoscope of Sri Rama for the past few > > days. > > > I am > > > > > giving below the slokas connected with > > > > > the birth : > > > > > > > > > > tato yaj~ne samaapte tu R^itUnaam SaT samatyayuH | > > > > > tataH ca dvaadashe maase chaitre naavamike tithau || 1-18- 8 > > > > > nakxatre aditi daivatye sva ucCha sa.nstheShu pa.nchasu | > > > > > graheShu kar.hkaTe lagne vaakpataa i.ndunaa saha || 1-18-9 > > > > > prodyamaane jagannaatham sarva loka namaskR^itam | > > > > > kausalyaa ajanayat raamam sarva lakSaNa sa.myutam || 1-18- > 10 > > > > > viSNoH ardham mahaabhaagam putram aixvaaku na.ndanam | > > > > > lohitaaksham mahaabaahum rak{}ta oSTam du.ndubhi svanam || > 1- > > 18-11 > > > > > > > > > > 8, 9, 10, 11. tataH yaj~ne samaapte= then, ritual, on > > completion; > > > > > R^ituuNaam > > > > > SaT sam atyayuH= seasons, six, well, passed by; tataH= > then; > > > dvaadashe > > > > > maase= in twelfth, month; chaitre naavamike tithau= > chaitra > > month > > > > > [April-May], ninth, day; nakshatre aditi daivatye= star of > > the day > > > > > [punarvasu,] [whose presiding is] Aditi; panchasu graheSu > > swa uccha > > > > > samstheshu= of five, planets, in their own, highest, > > positing; > > > karkaTe > > > > > lagne= in Cancer [of Zodiac]; vaak patiH indunaa saha= when > > > Speech's, Lord > > > > > [Jupiter,] is [with] Moon, along with; pra udyamane= when > > > raising � > > > > > ascending, advancing daytime � abhijit lagna; kausalyaa= > > Queen > > > Kausalya; > > > > > jagat naatham= worlds', lord [Vishnu]; sarva loka > > namaskR^itam= > > > by all, > > > > > worlds, adored; divya lakshana samyutam= divine, > attributes, > > > along with; > > > > > viSNoH= Vishnu's; artham= epitome of [not half of Vishnu]; > > mahaa > > > bhaagam= > > > > > greatly blessed one; ikshwaaku nandanam= Ikshvaaku dynasty, > > > delight of; > > > > > lohita aksham= lotus-red, eyes; mahaa baahum= lengthy, > armed; > > > rakta oSTam= > > > > > roseate, lips; dundubhi svanam= drumbeat, voiced; raamam= > > Rama > > > as; putram= > > > > > the son; ajanayat= gave birth. > > > > > > > > > > if you carefully look at this, the following are clear: > > > > > > > > > > 1. The birth occured in chaitra masa on the tithi of Navami > > > > > 2. The birth occured in Punarvasu nakshatra > > > > > 3. The lagna is Cancer > > > > > 4. Moon is in lagna > > > > > > > > > > The following two points are to be discussed. > > > > > > > > > > 1. here, the planet with which moon is there is said to be > > > vakpati. Is it > > > > > Mercury or Jupiter? Obviously, he is Jupiter since Mercury > > could > > > not be > > > > > with Moon on a Navami day. > > > > > > > > > > 2. The five planets mentioned here are either in swa (own) > or > > > > > uccha(exalted) > > > > > positions. It should not be taken that there are five > planets > > > which are in > > > > > exaltation, which seems to be popular refrain > > > > > > > > > > 3. These five planets are Moon, Mars, Jupiter, Venus and > > Saturn. > > > While the > > > > > sloka fixes the places of Moon and Jupiter, the other three > > > planets places > > > > > can be fixed only by discussion > > > > > > > > > > 4. Clearly, Sun can not be in exaltation when Moon is in > > cancer on a > > > > > navami > > > > > day. The distance between moon and sun should be more than > > 108 > > > degrees. > > > > > hence, the place of sun also can be fixed to pisces. Thus, > > the > > > place of > > > > > mercury is to be bound by three rasis- aqua, pisces or > aries. > > > > > > > > > > Hence, I would post my reasoning of planetary positions > after > > > hearing from > > > > > all of you. > > > > > > > > > > with best regards, > > > > > > > > > > kishore patnaik > > > > > 98492 70729 > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 16, 2007 Report Share Posted November 16, 2007 Dear Pradeep Thanks for attempting to discern the differnce and similarities between the two expressions. I still understand that Vak= voice, which is different to speech. The interpretation of Valmiki depends upon substantial knowledge of history, cultural and ethnic variations, semantics, etymology as well as sanskrit, and of course a very expert knowledge of the epoch he lived in, and the politics of his day. best wishes Marg - vijayadas_pradeep Friday, November 16, 2007 3:47 PM Re: Horoscope of Lord Rama/Vachaspati Dear Ms Margaret Thanks for the reply. Here are some more thoughts which came to my mind.5th house is also defined as Vak-Sthana.As we Know Vak originates from Nabhi(Navel) Region and is connected to Saraswati.That comes from mouth is also Vak but the audible form(4th order).This can be termed as Vachana as well as Vak.Perhaps origin of Vak is from Brahma Nabhi while Saraswati is manifested in 2nd.Guru is also the Karaka for the 5th house.The disciple also is represented by 5th house.Thus the effect and the Pathi can be explained from 2nd as well as 5th house. Regds Pradeep , " Marg " <margie9 wrote: > > Hi Pradeep, > > Thanks ever so much for this thoughtful reply, it was very kind of you > to take the time to write all that. > I'm sure as you say that there is a lot more to it, there usually is:-) > I did think there might be a subtle difference between Vak and Vaka, > but even in Valmiki's day this may have become a little clouded. > best wishes > Margaret > > - > vijayadas_pradeep > > Wednesday, November 14, 2007 4:30 PM > Re: Horoscope of Lord Rama/Vachaspati > > > Dear Ms.Margaret > > Sorry for the delay due to other priorities. > The question is not simple.The answer can go very deep and hence i > need time. > > But i can give views. > In my daily parlance(Mothertongue) - Vacha and Vak are used as > synonymns.(Vachanam and Vak).They in literal sense means word and > vachana can mean divine word as well. > > I tried to check classics(Varahamihira Hora) and translation of > Vacha was given as Vak.Thus they can mean the same. > > But Vak can have higher meanings as it can also point to the very > root or origin source of knowledge.Astrologers do pray to > get ''Vak'' as a boon before starting any work. > > Brihaspati has Karakatwa over 2nd house and as per Upanishads mouth > has some principle which cannot be destroyed by demons.This can be > loosely termed as Fire principle.The mouth of Vaiswanara - Horse is > also linked to Fire.Thus Vak is not a mere word when we go deep. > Thus Mercury and Jupiter can point to two aspects of Knowledge.One > being the Vak itself and the other being the Pati or lord. > Vacha-Vachaspati. > Vag-Devatha Saraswati rides a Swan(Hamsa).Hamsa has links with > Jupiter.Similarly Mercury's placement in 2nd is also considered for > Saraswati Yoga.Thus both are related to Vag or Vacha,but through > different tattwas.Now sages have placed Mercury under Vacha and > Jupiter under Vachaspati.Translations (ancient one) do equate Vacha > with Vak.Thus Vachaspati can be Vakapati is my understanding or > conclusion. > > They have a common root is the essence.I have to admit that i need > to study more and your question is not that simple.Hope the answer > is sufficient:-). > > Regds > Pradeep > > , " Marg " <margie9@> wrote: > > > > Thanks Pradeep. > > I understand Vacha is synonym for Mercury, but the word was Vak, > are the two the same? Vak means Vacha? > > - > > vijayadas_pradeep > > > > Sunday, November 11, 2007 4:25 PM > > Re: Horoscope of Lord Rama/Vachaspati > > > > > > Dear Ms Margaret and Mr.Patnaik > > > > Vacha is a synonymn for Mercury while Vachaspati points to > Jupiter. > > Thus Vak is Mercury and Vakpati is Brihaspati.Angiras,Sura > Guru,Vachas > > pati etc are for Guru). > > > > Hope this helps. > > > > Regds > > Pradeep > > > > , " Marg " <margie9@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi > > > > > > Thank you for the reply Kishore but I would like to add > another view. > > > > > > The translation you give seems to imply that it is not > intended to > > convey that Vak's ruleC is positively conjunct the Moon. Could > it not > > also imply that the lord of Vak is rising within the moon's > vicinity > > as lagna rises in purnavasu, and this would then allow Venus in > the > > vicinity as lord of Vak. I also understand that Vak is voice, not > > speech, so still feel that Venus is a contender, and don't > understand > > the reasoning behind Jupiter being chosen to be significator of > Vak, > > sorry if this upsets anyone, but I am willing to look at any > evidence > > for your 'tradition' of Vak's lord from classics. > > > Is it being taken as inarguable that the zodiac had been fully > > defined and was being used in vedic times? I thought that the > vedas > > had no reference to the formal divisions of the nakshatras as > used in > > jyotish, and that the Moon merely pointing to Aditi alone, > rather than > > being in any ''pada'' was the way the vedas would refer to > > constellational influences? This is why I asked about the merits > of > > the source you quoted. > > > Does the reading really imply moon is in purnavasu or is it > just > > telling us that this is the constellation which is rising at the > time > > Rama is born? It was the constellation rising which was > considered > > important in vedic times surely, and divisions of nakshatras > were a > > later development. > > > Abhijit being employed in the manner you suggest is also a > modern > > practise surely.I'm quoting an expert astronomer here who is > saying > > there were originally 28 nakshatras in vedic times, not 27: > > > ''One of the original nakshatras had to be deleted. This could > not > > be done easily as the Vedas are considered to be 'Apourusheya' > and no > > liberties are allowed. hence perhaps Abhijit was declared to be > an > > imaginary nakshatra meant only for phala'' > > > This is another reason I am asking who and how old the source > of > > your quote is? > > > I am sure that by reading Rama yourself you will find out more > than > > I can convey in an e mail, my version is translated by > Rajagopalachari > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > kishore patnaik > > > > > > Sunday, November 11, 2007 12:50 PM > > > Re: Horoscope of Lord Rama > > > > > > > > > Dear Marg, > > > > > > Good to read your mail. > > > > > > Bad things first: > > > > > > 1. Mercury or Venus can not conjuct with moon on a navami day. > > This is so > > > since the sun maintains a distance of 96 degrees or > more ,whereas > > Mercury > > > can not be more than 28 degrees away from sun and venus, 72 > > degrees- thus > > > venus has some chance if the moon is in the last degrees of a > sign > > but here > > > moon is in the very beginning of the cancer. Hence, it has got > to be > > > jupiter. Btw, traditionally vakpati means mercury and not > venus. > > > > > > 2. Abhijit lagna is that muhurtha during which the noon > falls.It > > starts at > > > the end of 7.5 muhurtha after the sun rise and goes on till 8.5 > > muhurtha. As > > > every other muhurtha, it lasts for 48 minutes. So, there is > every > > > possibility that Rama was born in abhijeet muhurtha with sun in > > pisces and > > > lagna falling in cancer > > > > > > Now, the good things: > > > > > > 1. Great to see that you are now trying to interpret the > cosmological > > > meaning of the slokas Please keep it up I will catch up if I > find > > a spark > > > 2. I do not know about relation between trisanku and rama's > birth, > > though > > > trisanku was indeed rama's ancestor and was tried to be sent to > > Heavens > > > bodily by Viswamitra who again played a big role during Rama's > times. > > > Please fill me up. > > > > > > Thnks for the mail once again,. > > > > > > Kishore patnaik > > > 98492 70729 > > > > > > On 11/11/07, Marg <margie9@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Kishore > > > > Please would you identify the source of your information? > > > > I have just re read the mail you sent with the interpretation > > in, and > > > > would like query that the ruler of Vak is Jupiter or Mercury? > > > > Vak is voice, voice is ruled by Taurus, Venus rules Taurus, > so > > Venus as > > > > ruler of vak must be in first house with the Moon. > > > > Voice is different to speech , a third house affair, which is > > ruled by > > > > Mercury. One can have vak or voice, but no speech. Venus > Lord of > > Vak would > > > > therefore appear to be in Cancer in the ascendant surely? > > > > Also the reference to abhijijit is a little obscure. Isn't > abhijit > > > > employed as an intercalary adjustment to align the sun with > the > > moon's > > > > motion? If abhijit is being referred to is it directing > > attention to an > > > > adjustment to nomral motion being made,which might affect the > > expected usual > > > > distance between sun and moon on navami? > > > > Out of interest sake I just re read the opening of Ramayana, > a > > brilliant > > > > epic, and realised that the epoch at which Rama is born is > > during the > > > > creation of constellations in the southern path by Trisanku, > > king of the > > > > solar dynasty.In fact the birth of Ram and his brothers is an > > allegory of > > > > the creation of Aries, Taurus and the twins Gemini don't you > think? > > > > > > > > best wishes > > > > Margaret > > > > > > > > Sunday, November 04, 2007 9:24 AM > > > > Horoscope of Lord Rama > > > > > > > > Dear all, > > > > > > > > I am looking at the horoscope of Sri Rama for the past few > days. > > I am > > > > giving below the slokas connected with > > > > the birth : > > > > > > > > tato yaj~ne samaapte tu R^itUnaam SaT samatyayuH | > > > > tataH ca dvaadashe maase chaitre naavamike tithau || 1-18-8 > > > > nakxatre aditi daivatye sva ucCha sa.nstheShu pa.nchasu | > > > > graheShu kar.hkaTe lagne vaakpataa i.ndunaa saha || 1-18-9 > > > > prodyamaane jagannaatham sarva loka namaskR^itam | > > > > kausalyaa ajanayat raamam sarva lakSaNa sa.myutam || 1-18- 10 > > > > viSNoH ardham mahaabhaagam putram aixvaaku na.ndanam | > > > > lohitaaksham mahaabaahum rak{}ta oSTam du.ndubhi svanam || 1- > 18-11 > > > > > > > > 8, 9, 10, 11. tataH yaj~ne samaapte= then, ritual, on > completion; > > > > R^ituuNaam > > > > SaT sam atyayuH= seasons, six, well, passed by; tataH= then; > > dvaadashe > > > > maase= in twelfth, month; chaitre naavamike tithau= chaitra > month > > > > [April-May], ninth, day; nakshatre aditi daivatye= star of > the day > > > > [punarvasu,] [whose presiding is] Aditi; panchasu graheSu > swa uccha > > > > samstheshu= of five, planets, in their own, highest, > positing; > > karkaTe > > > > lagne= in Cancer [of Zodiac]; vaak patiH indunaa saha= when > > Speech's, Lord > > > > [Jupiter,] is [with] Moon, along with; pra udyamane= when > > raising � > > > > ascending, advancing daytime � abhijit lagna; kausalyaa= > Queen > > Kausalya; > > > > jagat naatham= worlds', lord [Vishnu]; sarva loka > namaskR^itam= > > by all, > > > > worlds, adored; divya lakshana samyutam= divine, attributes, > > along with; > > > > viSNoH= Vishnu's; artham= epitome of [not half of Vishnu]; > mahaa > > bhaagam= > > > > greatly blessed one; ikshwaaku nandanam= Ikshvaaku dynasty, > > delight of; > > > > lohita aksham= lotus-red, eyes; mahaa baahum= lengthy, armed; > > rakta oSTam= > > > > roseate, lips; dundubhi svanam= drumbeat, voiced; raamam= > Rama > > as; putram= > > > > the son; ajanayat= gave birth. > > > > > > > > if you carefully look at this, the following are clear: > > > > > > > > 1. The birth occured in chaitra masa on the tithi of Navami > > > > 2. The birth occured in Punarvasu nakshatra > > > > 3. The lagna is Cancer > > > > 4. Moon is in lagna > > > > > > > > The following two points are to be discussed. > > > > > > > > 1. here, the planet with which moon is there is said to be > > vakpati. Is it > > > > Mercury or Jupiter? Obviously, he is Jupiter since Mercury > could > > not be > > > > with Moon on a Navami day. > > > > > > > > 2. The five planets mentioned here are either in swa (own) or > > > > uccha(exalted) > > > > positions. It should not be taken that there are five planets > > which are in > > > > exaltation, which seems to be popular refrain > > > > > > > > 3. These five planets are Moon, Mars, Jupiter, Venus and > Saturn. > > While the > > > > sloka fixes the places of Moon and Jupiter, the other three > > planets places > > > > can be fixed only by discussion > > > > > > > > 4. Clearly, Sun can not be in exaltation when Moon is in > cancer on a > > > > navami > > > > day. The distance between moon and sun should be more than > 108 > > degrees. > > > > hence, the place of sun also can be fixed to pisces. Thus, > the > > place of > > > > mercury is to be bound by three rasis- aqua, pisces or aries. > > > > > > > > Hence, I would post my reasoning of planetary positions after > > hearing from > > > > all of you. > > > > > > > > with best regards, > > > > > > > > kishore patnaik > > > > 98492 70729 > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 16, 2007 Report Share Posted November 16, 2007 Dear Bhaskar ji, ???? 1. Brihat Jataka: Jupiter Indra Rahu Brahma (dictum : sanivad rahu) 2. BPHS: Jupiter Shiva Rahu Specific for each dasa/antar dasa Say, Durga. 3. Prasna Marga: Jupiter Vishnu & Brahmins Free feeding of Brahmins and offering of ornaments Rahu = Serpent God Feeding of backward classes Best regards, Saaji Bhaskaran , " Bhaskar " <bhaskar_jyotish wrote: > > Dear pradeepji, > > Please guide which God/Goddess to worship > for Rahu pacification ? AND > Which God/Goddess to worship for Jupiter > pacification ? > > Please no other member reply this, before > Pradeepji replies,and I reply him back. > > > regards/Bhaskar. , " vijayadas_pradeep " > <vijayadas_pradeep@> wrote: > > > > Dear Ms Margaret > > > > Thanks for the reply. > > Here are some more thoughts which came to my mind.5th house is also > > defined as Vak-Sthana.As we Know Vak originates from Nabhi(Navel) > > Region and is connected to Saraswati.That comes from mouth is also > > Vak but the audible form(4th order).This can be termed as Vachana > as > > well as Vak.Perhaps origin of Vak is from Brahma Nabhi while > > Saraswati is manifested in 2nd.Guru is also the Karaka for the 5th > > house.The disciple also is represented by 5th house.Thus the effect > > and the Pathi can be explained from 2nd as well as 5th house. > > > > Regds > > Pradeep > > > > , " Marg " <margie9@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi Pradeep, > > > > > > Thanks ever so much for this thoughtful reply, it was very kind > of > > you > > > to take the time to write all that. > > > I'm sure as you say that there is a lot more to it, there usually > > is:-) > > > I did think there might be a subtle difference between Vak and > > Vaka, > > > but even in Valmiki's day this may have become a little clouded. > > > best wishes > > > Margaret > > > > > > - > > > vijayadas_pradeep > > > > > > Wednesday, November 14, 2007 4:30 PM > > > Re: Horoscope of Lord Rama/Vachaspati > > > > > > > > > Dear Ms.Margaret > > > > > > Sorry for the delay due to other priorities. > > > The question is not simple.The answer can go very deep and > hence > > i > > > need time. > > > > > > But i can give views. > > > In my daily parlance(Mothertongue) - Vacha and Vak are used as > > > synonymns.(Vachanam and Vak).They in literal sense means word > > and > > > vachana can mean divine word as well. > > > > > > I tried to check classics(Varahamihira Hora) and translation of > > > Vacha was given as Vak.Thus they can mean the same. > > > > > > But Vak can have higher meanings as it can also point to the > > very > > > root or origin source of knowledge.Astrologers do pray to > > > get ''Vak'' as a boon before starting any work. > > > > > > Brihaspati has Karakatwa over 2nd house and as per Upanishads > > mouth > > > has some principle which cannot be destroyed by demons.This can > > be > > > loosely termed as Fire principle.The mouth of Vaiswanara - > Horse > > is > > > also linked to Fire.Thus Vak is not a mere word when we go deep. > > > Thus Mercury and Jupiter can point to two aspects of > > Knowledge.One > > > being the Vak itself and the other being the Pati or lord. > > > Vacha-Vachaspati. > > > Vag-Devatha Saraswati rides a Swan(Hamsa).Hamsa has links with > > > Jupiter.Similarly Mercury's placement in 2nd is also considered > > for > > > Saraswati Yoga.Thus both are related to Vag or Vacha,but > through > > > different tattwas.Now sages have placed Mercury under Vacha and > > > Jupiter under Vachaspati.Translations (ancient one) do equate > > Vacha > > > with Vak.Thus Vachaspati can be Vakapati is my understanding or > > > conclusion. > > > > > > They have a common root is the essence.I have to admit that i > > need > > > to study more and your question is not that simple.Hope the > > answer > > > is sufficient:-). > > > > > > Regds > > > Pradeep > > > > > > , " Marg " <margie9@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Thanks Pradeep. > > > > I understand Vacha is synonym for Mercury, but the word was > > Vak, > > > are the two the same? Vak means Vacha? > > > > - > > > > vijayadas_pradeep > > > > > > > > Sunday, November 11, 2007 4:25 PM > > > > Re: Horoscope of Lord Rama/Vachaspati > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Ms Margaret and Mr.Patnaik > > > > > > > > Vacha is a synonymn for Mercury while Vachaspati points to > > > Jupiter. > > > > Thus Vak is Mercury and Vakpati is Brihaspati.Angiras,Sura > > > Guru,Vachas > > > > pati etc are for Guru). > > > > > > > > Hope this helps. > > > > > > > > Regds > > > > Pradeep > > > > > > > > , " Marg " <margie9@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi > > > > > > > > > > Thank you for the reply Kishore but I would like to add > > > another view. > > > > > > > > > > The translation you give seems to imply that it is not > > > intended to > > > > convey that Vak's ruleC is positively conjunct the Moon. > Could > > > it not > > > > also imply that the lord of Vak is rising within the moon's > > > vicinity > > > > as lagna rises in purnavasu, and this would then allow Venus > > in > > > the > > > > vicinity as lord of Vak. I also understand that Vak is voice, > > not > > > > speech, so still feel that Venus is a contender, and don't > > > understand > > > > the reasoning behind Jupiter being chosen to be significator > > of > > > Vak, > > > > sorry if this upsets anyone, but I am willing to look at any > > > evidence > > > > for your 'tradition' of Vak's lord from classics. > > > > > Is it being taken as inarguable that the zodiac had been > > fully > > > > defined and was being used in vedic times? I thought that the > > > vedas > > > > had no reference to the formal divisions of the nakshatras as > > > used in > > > > jyotish, and that the Moon merely pointing to Aditi alone, > > > rather than > > > > being in any ''pada'' was the way the vedas would refer to > > > > constellational influences? This is why I asked about the > > merits > > > of > > > > the source you quoted. > > > > > Does the reading really imply moon is in purnavasu or is it > > > just > > > > telling us that this is the constellation which is rising at > > the > > > time > > > > Rama is born? It was the constellation rising which was > > > considered > > > > important in vedic times surely, and divisions of nakshatras > > > were a > > > > later development. > > > > > Abhijit being employed in the manner you suggest is also a > > > modern > > > > practise surely.I'm quoting an expert astronomer here who is > > > saying > > > > there were originally 28 nakshatras in vedic times, not 27: > > > > > ''One of the original nakshatras had to be deleted. This > > could > > > not > > > > be done easily as the Vedas are considered to > be 'Apourusheya' > > > and no > > > > liberties are allowed. hence perhaps Abhijit was declared to > > be > > > an > > > > imaginary nakshatra meant only for phala'' > > > > > This is another reason I am asking who and how old the > > source > > > of > > > > your quote is? > > > > > I am sure that by reading Rama yourself you will find out > > more > > > than > > > > I can convey in an e mail, my version is translated by > > > Rajagopalachari > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > kishore patnaik > > > > > > > > > > Sunday, November 11, 2007 12:50 PM > > > > > Re: Horoscope of Lord Rama > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Marg, > > > > > > > > > > Good to read your mail. > > > > > > > > > > Bad things first: > > > > > > > > > > 1. Mercury or Venus can not conjuct with moon on a navami > > day. > > > > This is so > > > > > since the sun maintains a distance of 96 degrees or > > > more ,whereas > > > > Mercury > > > > > can not be more than 28 degrees away from sun and venus, 72 > > > > degrees- thus > > > > > venus has some chance if the moon is in the last degrees of > > a > > > sign > > > > but here > > > > > moon is in the very beginning of the cancer. Hence, it has > > got > > > to be > > > > > jupiter. Btw, traditionally vakpati means mercury and not > > > venus. > > > > > > > > > > 2. Abhijit lagna is that muhurtha during which the noon > > > falls.It > > > > starts at > > > > > the end of 7.5 muhurtha after the sun rise and goes on till > > 8.5 > > > > muhurtha. As > > > > > every other muhurtha, it lasts for 48 minutes. So, there is > > > every > > > > > possibility that Rama was born in abhijeet muhurtha with > sun > > in > > > > pisces and > > > > > lagna falling in cancer > > > > > > > > > > Now, the good things: > > > > > > > > > > 1. Great to see that you are now trying to interpret the > > > cosmological > > > > > meaning of the slokas Please keep it up I will catch up if > I > > > find > > > > a spark > > > > > 2. I do not know about relation between trisanku and rama's > > > birth, > > > > though > > > > > trisanku was indeed rama's ancestor and was tried to be > sent > > to > > > > Heavens > > > > > bodily by Viswamitra who again played a big role during > > Rama's > > > times. > > > > > Please fill me up. > > > > > > > > > > Thnks for the mail once again,. > > > > > > > > > > Kishore patnaik > > > > > 98492 70729 > > > > > > > > > > On 11/11/07, Marg <margie9@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Kishore > > > > > > Please would you identify the source of your information? > > > > > > I have just re read the mail you sent with the > > interpretation > > > > in, and > > > > > > would like query that the ruler of Vak is Jupiter or > > Mercury? > > > > > > Vak is voice, voice is ruled by Taurus, Venus rules > > Taurus, > > > so > > > > Venus as > > > > > > ruler of vak must be in first house with the Moon. > > > > > > Voice is different to speech , a third house affair, > which > > is > > > > ruled by > > > > > > Mercury. One can have vak or voice, but no speech. Venus > > > Lord of > > > > Vak would > > > > > > therefore appear to be in Cancer in the ascendant surely? > > > > > > Also the reference to abhijijit is a little obscure. > Isn't > > > abhijit > > > > > > employed as an intercalary adjustment to align the sun > > with > > > the > > > > moon's > > > > > > motion? If abhijit is being referred to is it directing > > > > attention to an > > > > > > adjustment to nomral motion being made,which might affect > > the > > > > expected usual > > > > > > distance between sun and moon on navami? > > > > > > Out of interest sake I just re read the opening of > > Ramayana, > > > a > > > > brilliant > > > > > > epic, and realised that the epoch at which Rama is born is > > > > during the > > > > > > creation of constellations in the southern path by > > Trisanku, > > > > king of the > > > > > > solar dynasty.In fact the birth of Ram and his brothers > is > > an > > > > allegory of > > > > > > the creation of Aries, Taurus and the twins Gemini don't > > you > > > think? > > > > > > > > > > > > best wishes > > > > > > Margaret > > > > > > > > > > > > Sunday, November 04, 2007 9:24 AM > > > > > > Horoscope of Lord Rama > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear all, > > > > > > > > > > > > I am looking at the horoscope of Sri Rama for the past > few > > > days. > > > > I am > > > > > > giving below the slokas connected with > > > > > > the birth : > > > > > > > > > > > > tato yaj~ne samaapte tu R^itUnaam SaT samatyayuH | > > > > > > tataH ca dvaadashe maase chaitre naavamike tithau || 1- 18- > 8 > > > > > > nakxatre aditi daivatye sva ucCha sa.nstheShu pa.nchasu | > > > > > > graheShu kar.hkaTe lagne vaakpataa i.ndunaa saha || 1- 18-9 > > > > > > prodyamaane jagannaatham sarva loka namaskR^itam | > > > > > > kausalyaa ajanayat raamam sarva lakSaNa sa.myutam || 1- 18- > > 10 > > > > > > viSNoH ardham mahaabhaagam putram aixvaaku na.ndanam | > > > > > > lohitaaksham mahaabaahum rak{}ta oSTam du.ndubhi svanam > || > > 1- > > > 18-11 > > > > > > > > > > > > 8, 9, 10, 11. tataH yaj~ne samaapte= then, ritual, on > > > completion; > > > > > > R^ituuNaam > > > > > > SaT sam atyayuH= seasons, six, well, passed by; tataH= > > then; > > > > dvaadashe > > > > > > maase= in twelfth, month; chaitre naavamike tithau= > > chaitra > > > month > > > > > > [April-May], ninth, day; nakshatre aditi daivatye= star > of > > > the day > > > > > > [punarvasu,] [whose presiding is] Aditi; panchasu graheSu > > > swa uccha > > > > > > samstheshu= of five, planets, in their own, highest, > > > positing; > > > > karkaTe > > > > > > lagne= in Cancer [of Zodiac]; vaak patiH indunaa saha= > when > > > > Speech's, Lord > > > > > > [Jupiter,] is [with] Moon, along with; pra udyamane= when > > > > raising � > > > > > > ascending, advancing daytime � abhijit lagna; > kausalyaa= > > > Queen > > > > Kausalya; > > > > > > jagat naatham= worlds', lord [Vishnu]; sarva loka > > > namaskR^itam= > > > > by all, > > > > > > worlds, adored; divya lakshana samyutam= divine, > > attributes, > > > > along with; > > > > > > viSNoH= Vishnu's; artham= epitome of [not half of > Vishnu]; > > > mahaa > > > > bhaagam= > > > > > > greatly blessed one; ikshwaaku nandanam= Ikshvaaku > dynasty, > > > > delight of; > > > > > > lohita aksham= lotus-red, eyes; mahaa baahum= lengthy, > > armed; > > > > rakta oSTam= > > > > > > roseate, lips; dundubhi svanam= drumbeat, voiced; raamam= > > > Rama > > > > as; putram= > > > > > > the son; ajanayat= gave birth. > > > > > > > > > > > > if you carefully look at this, the following are clear: > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. The birth occured in chaitra masa on the tithi of > Navami > > > > > > 2. The birth occured in Punarvasu nakshatra > > > > > > 3. The lagna is Cancer > > > > > > 4. Moon is in lagna > > > > > > > > > > > > The following two points are to be discussed. > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. here, the planet with which moon is there is said to be > > > > vakpati. Is it > > > > > > Mercury or Jupiter? Obviously, he is Jupiter since > Mercury > > > could > > > > not be > > > > > > with Moon on a Navami day. > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. The five planets mentioned here are either in swa > (own) > > or > > > > > > uccha(exalted) > > > > > > positions. It should not be taken that there are five > > planets > > > > which are in > > > > > > exaltation, which seems to be popular refrain > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. These five planets are Moon, Mars, Jupiter, Venus and > > > Saturn. > > > > While the > > > > > > sloka fixes the places of Moon and Jupiter, the other > three > > > > planets places > > > > > > can be fixed only by discussion > > > > > > > > > > > > 4. Clearly, Sun can not be in exaltation when Moon is in > > > cancer on a > > > > > > navami > > > > > > day. The distance between moon and sun should be more > than > > > 108 > > > > degrees. > > > > > > hence, the place of sun also can be fixed to pisces. > Thus, > > > the > > > > place of > > > > > > mercury is to be bound by three rasis- aqua, pisces or > > aries. > > > > > > > > > > > > Hence, I would post my reasoning of planetary positions > > after > > > > hearing from > > > > > > all of you. > > > > > > > > > > > > with best regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > kishore patnaik > > > > > > 98492 70729 > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 16, 2007 Report Share Posted November 16, 2007 Further please guide for which planet is Goddess Saraswatiji worshipped, and if You know the reason, then please put that too. regards, Bhaskar. , " Bhaskar " <bhaskar_jyotish wrote: > > Dear pradeepji, > > Please guide which God/Goddess to worship > for Rahu pacification ? AND > Which God/Goddess to worship for Jupiter > pacification ? > > Please no other member reply this, before > Pradeepji replies,and I reply him back. > > > regards/Bhaskar. , " vijayadas_pradeep " > <vijayadas_pradeep@> wrote: > > > > Dear Ms Margaret > > > > Thanks for the reply. > > Here are some more thoughts which came to my mind.5th house is also > > defined as Vak-Sthana.As we Know Vak originates from Nabhi(Navel) > > Region and is connected to Saraswati.That comes from mouth is also > > Vak but the audible form(4th order).This can be termed as Vachana > as > > well as Vak.Perhaps origin of Vak is from Brahma Nabhi while > > Saraswati is manifested in 2nd.Guru is also the Karaka for the 5th > > house.The disciple also is represented by 5th house.Thus the effect > > and the Pathi can be explained from 2nd as well as 5th house. > > > > Regds > > Pradeep > > > > , " Marg " <margie9@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi Pradeep, > > > > > > Thanks ever so much for this thoughtful reply, it was very kind > of > > you > > > to take the time to write all that. > > > I'm sure as you say that there is a lot more to it, there usually > > is:-) > > > I did think there might be a subtle difference between Vak and > > Vaka, > > > but even in Valmiki's day this may have become a little clouded. > > > best wishes > > > Margaret > > > > > > - > > > vijayadas_pradeep > > > > > > Wednesday, November 14, 2007 4:30 PM > > > Re: Horoscope of Lord Rama/Vachaspati > > > > > > > > > Dear Ms.Margaret > > > > > > Sorry for the delay due to other priorities. > > > The question is not simple.The answer can go very deep and > hence > > i > > > need time. > > > > > > But i can give views. > > > In my daily parlance(Mothertongue) - Vacha and Vak are used as > > > synonymns.(Vachanam and Vak).They in literal sense means word > > and > > > vachana can mean divine word as well. > > > > > > I tried to check classics(Varahamihira Hora) and translation of > > > Vacha was given as Vak.Thus they can mean the same. > > > > > > But Vak can have higher meanings as it can also point to the > > very > > > root or origin source of knowledge.Astrologers do pray to > > > get ''Vak'' as a boon before starting any work. > > > > > > Brihaspati has Karakatwa over 2nd house and as per Upanishads > > mouth > > > has some principle which cannot be destroyed by demons.This can > > be > > > loosely termed as Fire principle.The mouth of Vaiswanara - > Horse > > is > > > also linked to Fire.Thus Vak is not a mere word when we go deep. > > > Thus Mercury and Jupiter can point to two aspects of > > Knowledge.One > > > being the Vak itself and the other being the Pati or lord. > > > Vacha-Vachaspati. > > > Vag-Devatha Saraswati rides a Swan(Hamsa).Hamsa has links with > > > Jupiter.Similarly Mercury's placement in 2nd is also considered > > for > > > Saraswati Yoga.Thus both are related to Vag or Vacha,but > through > > > different tattwas.Now sages have placed Mercury under Vacha and > > > Jupiter under Vachaspati.Translations (ancient one) do equate > > Vacha > > > with Vak.Thus Vachaspati can be Vakapati is my understanding or > > > conclusion. > > > > > > They have a common root is the essence.I have to admit that i > > need > > > to study more and your question is not that simple.Hope the > > answer > > > is sufficient:-). > > > > > > Regds > > > Pradeep > > > > > > , " Marg " <margie9@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Thanks Pradeep. > > > > I understand Vacha is synonym for Mercury, but the word was > > Vak, > > > are the two the same? Vak means Vacha? > > > > - > > > > vijayadas_pradeep > > > > > > > > Sunday, November 11, 2007 4:25 PM > > > > Re: Horoscope of Lord Rama/Vachaspati > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Ms Margaret and Mr.Patnaik > > > > > > > > Vacha is a synonymn for Mercury while Vachaspati points to > > > Jupiter. > > > > Thus Vak is Mercury and Vakpati is Brihaspati.Angiras,Sura > > > Guru,Vachas > > > > pati etc are for Guru). > > > > > > > > Hope this helps. > > > > > > > > Regds > > > > Pradeep > > > > > > > > , " Marg " <margie9@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi > > > > > > > > > > Thank you for the reply Kishore but I would like to add > > > another view. > > > > > > > > > > The translation you give seems to imply that it is not > > > intended to > > > > convey that Vak's ruleC is positively conjunct the Moon. > Could > > > it not > > > > also imply that the lord of Vak is rising within the moon's > > > vicinity > > > > as lagna rises in purnavasu, and this would then allow Venus > > in > > > the > > > > vicinity as lord of Vak. I also understand that Vak is voice, > > not > > > > speech, so still feel that Venus is a contender, and don't > > > understand > > > > the reasoning behind Jupiter being chosen to be significator > > of > > > Vak, > > > > sorry if this upsets anyone, but I am willing to look at any > > > evidence > > > > for your 'tradition' of Vak's lord from classics. > > > > > Is it being taken as inarguable that the zodiac had been > > fully > > > > defined and was being used in vedic times? I thought that the > > > vedas > > > > had no reference to the formal divisions of the nakshatras as > > > used in > > > > jyotish, and that the Moon merely pointing to Aditi alone, > > > rather than > > > > being in any ''pada'' was the way the vedas would refer to > > > > constellational influences? This is why I asked about the > > merits > > > of > > > > the source you quoted. > > > > > Does the reading really imply moon is in purnavasu or is it > > > just > > > > telling us that this is the constellation which is rising at > > the > > > time > > > > Rama is born? It was the constellation rising which was > > > considered > > > > important in vedic times surely, and divisions of nakshatras > > > were a > > > > later development. > > > > > Abhijit being employed in the manner you suggest is also a > > > modern > > > > practise surely.I'm quoting an expert astronomer here who is > > > saying > > > > there were originally 28 nakshatras in vedic times, not 27: > > > > > ''One of the original nakshatras had to be deleted. This > > could > > > not > > > > be done easily as the Vedas are considered to > be 'Apourusheya' > > > and no > > > > liberties are allowed. hence perhaps Abhijit was declared to > > be > > > an > > > > imaginary nakshatra meant only for phala'' > > > > > This is another reason I am asking who and how old the > > source > > > of > > > > your quote is? > > > > > I am sure that by reading Rama yourself you will find out > > more > > > than > > > > I can convey in an e mail, my version is translated by > > > Rajagopalachari > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > kishore patnaik > > > > > > > > > > Sunday, November 11, 2007 12:50 PM > > > > > Re: Horoscope of Lord Rama > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Marg, > > > > > > > > > > Good to read your mail. > > > > > > > > > > Bad things first: > > > > > > > > > > 1. Mercury or Venus can not conjuct with moon on a navami > > day. > > > > This is so > > > > > since the sun maintains a distance of 96 degrees or > > > more ,whereas > > > > Mercury > > > > > can not be more than 28 degrees away from sun and venus, 72 > > > > degrees- thus > > > > > venus has some chance if the moon is in the last degrees of > > a > > > sign > > > > but here > > > > > moon is in the very beginning of the cancer. Hence, it has > > got > > > to be > > > > > jupiter. Btw, traditionally vakpati means mercury and not > > > venus. > > > > > > > > > > 2. Abhijit lagna is that muhurtha during which the noon > > > falls.It > > > > starts at > > > > > the end of 7.5 muhurtha after the sun rise and goes on till > > 8.5 > > > > muhurtha. As > > > > > every other muhurtha, it lasts for 48 minutes. So, there is > > > every > > > > > possibility that Rama was born in abhijeet muhurtha with > sun > > in > > > > pisces and > > > > > lagna falling in cancer > > > > > > > > > > Now, the good things: > > > > > > > > > > 1. Great to see that you are now trying to interpret the > > > cosmological > > > > > meaning of the slokas Please keep it up I will catch up if > I > > > find > > > > a spark > > > > > 2. I do not know about relation between trisanku and rama's > > > birth, > > > > though > > > > > trisanku was indeed rama's ancestor and was tried to be > sent > > to > > > > Heavens > > > > > bodily by Viswamitra who again played a big role during > > Rama's > > > times. > > > > > Please fill me up. > > > > > > > > > > Thnks for the mail once again,. > > > > > > > > > > Kishore patnaik > > > > > 98492 70729 > > > > > > > > > > On 11/11/07, Marg <margie9@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Kishore > > > > > > Please would you identify the source of your information? > > > > > > I have just re read the mail you sent with the > > interpretation > > > > in, and > > > > > > would like query that the ruler of Vak is Jupiter or > > Mercury? > > > > > > Vak is voice, voice is ruled by Taurus, Venus rules > > Taurus, > > > so > > > > Venus as > > > > > > ruler of vak must be in first house with the Moon. > > > > > > Voice is different to speech , a third house affair, > which > > is > > > > ruled by > > > > > > Mercury. One can have vak or voice, but no speech. Venus > > > Lord of > > > > Vak would > > > > > > therefore appear to be in Cancer in the ascendant surely? > > > > > > Also the reference to abhijijit is a little obscure. > Isn't > > > abhijit > > > > > > employed as an intercalary adjustment to align the sun > > with > > > the > > > > moon's > > > > > > motion? If abhijit is being referred to is it directing > > > > attention to an > > > > > > adjustment to nomral motion being made,which might affect > > the > > > > expected usual > > > > > > distance between sun and moon on navami? > > > > > > Out of interest sake I just re read the opening of > > Ramayana, > > > a > > > > brilliant > > > > > > epic, and realised that the epoch at which Rama is born is > > > > during the > > > > > > creation of constellations in the southern path by > > Trisanku, > > > > king of the > > > > > > solar dynasty.In fact the birth of Ram and his brothers > is > > an > > > > allegory of > > > > > > the creation of Aries, Taurus and the twins Gemini don't > > you > > > think? > > > > > > > > > > > > best wishes > > > > > > Margaret > > > > > > > > > > > > Sunday, November 04, 2007 9:24 AM > > > > > > Horoscope of Lord Rama > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear all, > > > > > > > > > > > > I am looking at the horoscope of Sri Rama for the past > few > > > days. > > > > I am > > > > > > giving below the slokas connected with > > > > > > the birth : > > > > > > > > > > > > tato yaj~ne samaapte tu R^itUnaam SaT samatyayuH | > > > > > > tataH ca dvaadashe maase chaitre naavamike tithau || 1- 18- > 8 > > > > > > nakxatre aditi daivatye sva ucCha sa.nstheShu pa.nchasu | > > > > > > graheShu kar.hkaTe lagne vaakpataa i.ndunaa saha || 1- 18-9 > > > > > > prodyamaane jagannaatham sarva loka namaskR^itam | > > > > > > kausalyaa ajanayat raamam sarva lakSaNa sa.myutam || 1- 18- > > 10 > > > > > > viSNoH ardham mahaabhaagam putram aixvaaku na.ndanam | > > > > > > lohitaaksham mahaabaahum rak{}ta oSTam du.ndubhi svanam > || > > 1- > > > 18-11 > > > > > > > > > > > > 8, 9, 10, 11. tataH yaj~ne samaapte= then, ritual, on > > > completion; > > > > > > R^ituuNaam > > > > > > SaT sam atyayuH= seasons, six, well, passed by; tataH= > > then; > > > > dvaadashe > > > > > > maase= in twelfth, month; chaitre naavamike tithau= > > chaitra > > > month > > > > > > [April-May], ninth, day; nakshatre aditi daivatye= star > of > > > the day > > > > > > [punarvasu,] [whose presiding is] Aditi; panchasu graheSu > > > swa uccha > > > > > > samstheshu= of five, planets, in their own, highest, > > > positing; > > > > karkaTe > > > > > > lagne= in Cancer [of Zodiac]; vaak patiH indunaa saha= > when > > > > Speech's, Lord > > > > > > [Jupiter,] is [with] Moon, along with; pra udyamane= when > > > > raising � > > > > > > ascending, advancing daytime � abhijit lagna; > kausalyaa= > > > Queen > > > > Kausalya; > > > > > > jagat naatham= worlds', lord [Vishnu]; sarva loka > > > namaskR^itam= > > > > by all, > > > > > > worlds, adored; divya lakshana samyutam= divine, > > attributes, > > > > along with; > > > > > > viSNoH= Vishnu's; artham= epitome of [not half of > Vishnu]; > > > mahaa > > > > bhaagam= > > > > > > greatly blessed one; ikshwaaku nandanam= Ikshvaaku > dynasty, > > > > delight of; > > > > > > lohita aksham= lotus-red, eyes; mahaa baahum= lengthy, > > armed; > > > > rakta oSTam= > > > > > > roseate, lips; dundubhi svanam= drumbeat, voiced; raamam= > > > Rama > > > > as; putram= > > > > > > the son; ajanayat= gave birth. > > > > > > > > > > > > if you carefully look at this, the following are clear: > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. The birth occured in chaitra masa on the tithi of > Navami > > > > > > 2. The birth occured in Punarvasu nakshatra > > > > > > 3. The lagna is Cancer > > > > > > 4. Moon is in lagna > > > > > > > > > > > > The following two points are to be discussed. > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. here, the planet with which moon is there is said to be > > > > vakpati. Is it > > > > > > Mercury or Jupiter? Obviously, he is Jupiter since > Mercury > > > could > > > > not be > > > > > > with Moon on a Navami day. > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. The five planets mentioned here are either in swa > (own) > > or > > > > > > uccha(exalted) > > > > > > positions. It should not be taken that there are five > > planets > > > > which are in > > > > > > exaltation, which seems to be popular refrain > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. These five planets are Moon, Mars, Jupiter, Venus and > > > Saturn. > > > > While the > > > > > > sloka fixes the places of Moon and Jupiter, the other > three > > > > planets places > > > > > > can be fixed only by discussion > > > > > > > > > > > > 4. Clearly, Sun can not be in exaltation when Moon is in > > > cancer on a > > > > > > navami > > > > > > day. The distance between moon and sun should be more > than > > > 108 > > > > degrees. > > > > > > hence, the place of sun also can be fixed to pisces. > Thus, > > > the > > > > place of > > > > > > mercury is to be bound by three rasis- aqua, pisces or > > aries. > > > > > > > > > > > > Hence, I would post my reasoning of planetary positions > > after > > > > hearing from > > > > > > all of you. > > > > > > > > > > > > with best regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > kishore patnaik > > > > > > 98492 70729 > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 16, 2007 Report Share Posted November 16, 2007 Dear Marg, If You are really sincere then let me tell you that " Vak " in astrology means speech and not just voice. If the 2nd house and Lord is strong or aspected by benefics then the native would have a " Vakpatuta " or whatever he speaks comes out truth. If this same 2nd Lord or house is strong and aspected by malefics like Rahu etc., then still whatever the native speaks would happen, but this would be a case of a black toungue. The man would curse someone and it would come out true. Voice is different here and speech is different. Vocabulary is again different. " Vak " essentially in astrology, means, the power of speech, which may or may not contain these other attributes, depending on what one is looking for, in a chart. If I am wrong , please ignore my mail. regards, Bhaskar. , " Marg " <margie9 wrote: > > Dear Pradeep > > Thanks for attempting to discern the differnce and similarities between the two expressions. > I still understand that Vak= voice, which is different to speech. > The interpretation of Valmiki depends upon substantial knowledge of history, cultural and ethnic variations, semantics, etymology as well as sanskrit, and of course a very expert knowledge of the epoch he lived in, and the politics of his day. > > best wishes > Marg > > - > vijayadas_pradeep > > Friday, November 16, 2007 3:47 PM > Re: Horoscope of Lord Rama/Vachaspati > > > Dear Ms Margaret > > Thanks for the reply. > Here are some more thoughts which came to my mind.5th house is also > defined as Vak-Sthana.As we Know Vak originates from Nabhi(Navel) > Region and is connected to Saraswati.That comes from mouth is also > Vak but the audible form(4th order).This can be termed as Vachana as > well as Vak.Perhaps origin of Vak is from Brahma Nabhi while > Saraswati is manifested in 2nd.Guru is also the Karaka for the 5th > house.The disciple also is represented by 5th house.Thus the effect > and the Pathi can be explained from 2nd as well as 5th house. > > Regds > Pradeep > > , " Marg " <margie9@> wrote: > > > > Hi Pradeep, > > > > Thanks ever so much for this thoughtful reply, it was very kind of > you > > to take the time to write all that. > > I'm sure as you say that there is a lot more to it, there usually > is:-) > > I did think there might be a subtle difference between Vak and > Vaka, > > but even in Valmiki's day this may have become a little clouded. > > best wishes > > Margaret > > > > - > > vijayadas_pradeep > > > > Wednesday, November 14, 2007 4:30 PM > > Re: Horoscope of Lord Rama/Vachaspati > > > > > > Dear Ms.Margaret > > > > Sorry for the delay due to other priorities. > > The question is not simple.The answer can go very deep and hence > i > > need time. > > > > But i can give views. > > In my daily parlance(Mothertongue) - Vacha and Vak are used as > > synonymns.(Vachanam and Vak).They in literal sense means word > and > > vachana can mean divine word as well. > > > > I tried to check classics(Varahamihira Hora) and translation of > > Vacha was given as Vak.Thus they can mean the same. > > > > But Vak can have higher meanings as it can also point to the > very > > root or origin source of knowledge.Astrologers do pray to > > get ''Vak'' as a boon before starting any work. > > > > Brihaspati has Karakatwa over 2nd house and as per Upanishads > mouth > > has some principle which cannot be destroyed by demons.This can > be > > loosely termed as Fire principle.The mouth of Vaiswanara - Horse > is > > also linked to Fire.Thus Vak is not a mere word when we go deep. > > Thus Mercury and Jupiter can point to two aspects of > Knowledge.One > > being the Vak itself and the other being the Pati or lord. > > Vacha-Vachaspati. > > Vag-Devatha Saraswati rides a Swan(Hamsa).Hamsa has links with > > Jupiter.Similarly Mercury's placement in 2nd is also considered > for > > Saraswati Yoga.Thus both are related to Vag or Vacha,but through > > different tattwas.Now sages have placed Mercury under Vacha and > > Jupiter under Vachaspati.Translations (ancient one) do equate > Vacha > > with Vak.Thus Vachaspati can be Vakapati is my understanding or > > conclusion. > > > > They have a common root is the essence.I have to admit that i > need > > to study more and your question is not that simple.Hope the > answer > > is sufficient:-). > > > > Regds > > Pradeep > > > > , " Marg " <margie9@> wrote: > > > > > > Thanks Pradeep. > > > I understand Vacha is synonym for Mercury, but the word was > Vak, > > are the two the same? Vak means Vacha? > > > - > > > vijayadas_pradeep > > > > > > Sunday, November 11, 2007 4:25 PM > > > Re: Horoscope of Lord Rama/Vachaspati > > > > > > > > > Dear Ms Margaret and Mr.Patnaik > > > > > > Vacha is a synonymn for Mercury while Vachaspati points to > > Jupiter. > > > Thus Vak is Mercury and Vakpati is Brihaspati.Angiras,Sura > > Guru,Vachas > > > pati etc are for Guru). > > > > > > Hope this helps. > > > > > > Regds > > > Pradeep > > > > > > , " Marg " <margie9@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi > > > > > > > > Thank you for the reply Kishore but I would like to add > > another view. > > > > > > > > The translation you give seems to imply that it is not > > intended to > > > convey that Vak's ruleC is positively conjunct the Moon. Could > > it not > > > also imply that the lord of Vak is rising within the moon's > > vicinity > > > as lagna rises in purnavasu, and this would then allow Venus > in > > the > > > vicinity as lord of Vak. I also understand that Vak is voice, > not > > > speech, so still feel that Venus is a contender, and don't > > understand > > > the reasoning behind Jupiter being chosen to be significator > of > > Vak, > > > sorry if this upsets anyone, but I am willing to look at any > > evidence > > > for your 'tradition' of Vak's lord from classics. > > > > Is it being taken as inarguable that the zodiac had been > fully > > > defined and was being used in vedic times? I thought that the > > vedas > > > had no reference to the formal divisions of the nakshatras as > > used in > > > jyotish, and that the Moon merely pointing to Aditi alone, > > rather than > > > being in any ''pada'' was the way the vedas would refer to > > > constellational influences? This is why I asked about the > merits > > of > > > the source you quoted. > > > > Does the reading really imply moon is in purnavasu or is it > > just > > > telling us that this is the constellation which is rising at > the > > time > > > Rama is born? It was the constellation rising which was > > considered > > > important in vedic times surely, and divisions of nakshatras > > were a > > > later development. > > > > Abhijit being employed in the manner you suggest is also a > > modern > > > practise surely.I'm quoting an expert astronomer here who is > > saying > > > there were originally 28 nakshatras in vedic times, not 27: > > > > ''One of the original nakshatras had to be deleted. This > could > > not > > > be done easily as the Vedas are considered to be 'Apourusheya' > > and no > > > liberties are allowed. hence perhaps Abhijit was declared to > be > > an > > > imaginary nakshatra meant only for phala'' > > > > This is another reason I am asking who and how old the > source > > of > > > your quote is? > > > > I am sure that by reading Rama yourself you will find out > more > > than > > > I can convey in an e mail, my version is translated by > > Rajagopalachari > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > kishore patnaik > > > > > > > > Sunday, November 11, 2007 12:50 PM > > > > Re: Horoscope of Lord Rama > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Marg, > > > > > > > > Good to read your mail. > > > > > > > > Bad things first: > > > > > > > > 1. Mercury or Venus can not conjuct with moon on a navami > day. > > > This is so > > > > since the sun maintains a distance of 96 degrees or > > more ,whereas > > > Mercury > > > > can not be more than 28 degrees away from sun and venus, 72 > > > degrees- thus > > > > venus has some chance if the moon is in the last degrees of > a > > sign > > > but here > > > > moon is in the very beginning of the cancer. Hence, it has > got > > to be > > > > jupiter. Btw, traditionally vakpati means mercury and not > > venus. > > > > > > > > 2. Abhijit lagna is that muhurtha during which the noon > > falls.It > > > starts at > > > > the end of 7.5 muhurtha after the sun rise and goes on till > 8.5 > > > muhurtha. As > > > > every other muhurtha, it lasts for 48 minutes. So, there is > > every > > > > possibility that Rama was born in abhijeet muhurtha with sun > in > > > pisces and > > > > lagna falling in cancer > > > > > > > > Now, the good things: > > > > > > > > 1. Great to see that you are now trying to interpret the > > cosmological > > > > meaning of the slokas Please keep it up I will catch up if I > > find > > > a spark > > > > 2. I do not know about relation between trisanku and rama's > > birth, > > > though > > > > trisanku was indeed rama's ancestor and was tried to be sent > to > > > Heavens > > > > bodily by Viswamitra who again played a big role during > Rama's > > times. > > > > Please fill me up. > > > > > > > > Thnks for the mail once again,. > > > > > > > > Kishore patnaik > > > > 98492 70729 > > > > > > > > On 11/11/07, Marg <margie9@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Kishore > > > > > Please would you identify the source of your information? > > > > > I have just re read the mail you sent with the > interpretation > > > in, and > > > > > would like query that the ruler of Vak is Jupiter or > Mercury? > > > > > Vak is voice, voice is ruled by Taurus, Venus rules > Taurus, > > so > > > Venus as > > > > > ruler of vak must be in first house with the Moon. > > > > > Voice is different to speech , a third house affair, which > is > > > ruled by > > > > > Mercury. One can have vak or voice, but no speech. Venus > > Lord of > > > Vak would > > > > > therefore appear to be in Cancer in the ascendant surely? > > > > > Also the reference to abhijijit is a little obscure. Isn't > > abhijit > > > > > employed as an intercalary adjustment to align the sun > with > > the > > > moon's > > > > > motion? If abhijit is being referred to is it directing > > > attention to an > > > > > adjustment to nomral motion being made,which might affect > the > > > expected usual > > > > > distance between sun and moon on navami? > > > > > Out of interest sake I just re read the opening of > Ramayana, > > a > > > brilliant > > > > > epic, and realised that the epoch at which Rama is born is > > > during the > > > > > creation of constellations in the southern path by > Trisanku, > > > king of the > > > > > solar dynasty.In fact the birth of Ram and his brothers is > an > > > allegory of > > > > > the creation of Aries, Taurus and the twins Gemini don't > you > > think? > > > > > > > > > > best wishes > > > > > Margaret > > > > > > > > > > Sunday, November 04, 2007 9:24 AM > > > > > Horoscope of Lord Rama > > > > > > > > > > Dear all, > > > > > > > > > > I am looking at the horoscope of Sri Rama for the past few > > days. > > > I am > > > > > giving below the slokas connected with > > > > > the birth : > > > > > > > > > > tato yaj~ne samaapte tu R^itUnaam SaT samatyayuH | > > > > > tataH ca dvaadashe maase chaitre naavamike tithau || 1-18- 8 > > > > > nakxatre aditi daivatye sva ucCha sa.nstheShu pa.nchasu | > > > > > graheShu kar.hkaTe lagne vaakpataa i.ndunaa saha || 1-18-9 > > > > > prodyamaane jagannaatham sarva loka namaskR^itam | > > > > > kausalyaa ajanayat raamam sarva lakSaNa sa.myutam || 1-18- > 10 > > > > > viSNoH ardham mahaabhaagam putram aixvaaku na.ndanam | > > > > > lohitaaksham mahaabaahum rak{}ta oSTam du.ndubhi svanam || > 1- > > 18-11 > > > > > > > > > > 8, 9, 10, 11. tataH yaj~ne samaapte= then, ritual, on > > completion; > > > > > R^ituuNaam > > > > > SaT sam atyayuH= seasons, six, well, passed by; tataH= > then; > > > dvaadashe > > > > > maase= in twelfth, month; chaitre naavamike tithau= > chaitra > > month > > > > > [April-May], ninth, day; nakshatre aditi daivatye= star of > > the day > > > > > [punarvasu,] [whose presiding is] Aditi; panchasu graheSu > > swa uccha > > > > > samstheshu= of five, planets, in their own, highest, > > positing; > > > karkaTe > > > > > lagne= in Cancer [of Zodiac]; vaak patiH indunaa saha= when > > > Speech's, Lord > > > > > [Jupiter,] is [with] Moon, along with; pra udyamane= when > > > raising � > > > > > ascending, advancing daytime � abhijit lagna; kausalyaa= > > Queen > > > Kausalya; > > > > > jagat naatham= worlds', lord [Vishnu]; sarva loka > > namaskR^itam= > > > by all, > > > > > worlds, adored; divya lakshana samyutam= divine, > attributes, > > > along with; > > > > > viSNoH= Vishnu's; artham= epitome of [not half of Vishnu]; > > mahaa > > > bhaagam= > > > > > greatly blessed one; ikshwaaku nandanam= Ikshvaaku dynasty, > > > delight of; > > > > > lohita aksham= lotus-red, eyes; mahaa baahum= lengthy, > armed; > > > rakta oSTam= > > > > > roseate, lips; dundubhi svanam= drumbeat, voiced; raamam= > > Rama > > > as; putram= > > > > > the son; ajanayat= gave birth. > > > > > > > > > > if you carefully look at this, the following are clear: > > > > > > > > > > 1. The birth occured in chaitra masa on the tithi of Navami > > > > > 2. The birth occured in Punarvasu nakshatra > > > > > 3. The lagna is Cancer > > > > > 4. Moon is in lagna > > > > > > > > > > The following two points are to be discussed. > > > > > > > > > > 1. here, the planet with which moon is there is said to be > > > vakpati. Is it > > > > > Mercury or Jupiter? Obviously, he is Jupiter since Mercury > > could > > > not be > > > > > with Moon on a Navami day. > > > > > > > > > > 2. The five planets mentioned here are either in swa (own) > or > > > > > uccha(exalted) > > > > > positions. It should not be taken that there are five > planets > > > which are in > > > > > exaltation, which seems to be popular refrain > > > > > > > > > > 3. These five planets are Moon, Mars, Jupiter, Venus and > > Saturn. > > > While the > > > > > sloka fixes the places of Moon and Jupiter, the other three > > > planets places > > > > > can be fixed only by discussion > > > > > > > > > > 4. Clearly, Sun can not be in exaltation when Moon is in > > cancer on a > > > > > navami > > > > > day. The distance between moon and sun should be more than > > 108 > > > degrees. > > > > > hence, the place of sun also can be fixed to pisces. Thus, > > the > > > place of > > > > > mercury is to be bound by three rasis- aqua, pisces or > aries. > > > > > > > > > > Hence, I would post my reasoning of planetary positions > after > > > hearing from > > > > > all of you. > > > > > > > > > > with best regards, > > > > > > > > > > kishore patnaik > > > > > 98492 70729 > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 16, 2007 Report Share Posted November 16, 2007 Dear Sri Bhaskar, You put it exactly the right way. It is what is also termed as Vaak-Siddhi. Satya S Kolachina , " Bhaskar " <bhaskar_jyotish wrote: > > Dear Marg, > > If You are really sincere then let me tell you > that " Vak " in astrology means speech and not > just voice. If the 2nd house and Lord is strong > or aspected by benefics then the native would have > a " Vakpatuta " or whatever he speaks comes out truth. > > If this same 2nd Lord or house is strong and > aspected by malefics like Rahu etc., then > still whatever the native speaks would happen, > but this would be a case of a black toungue. > The man would curse someone and it would come > out true. > > Voice is different here and speech is different. > Vocabulary is again different. " Vak " essentially > in astrology, means, the power of speech, which > may or may not contain these other attributes, > depending on what one is looking for, in a chart. > > If I am wrong , please ignore my mail. > > regards, > Bhaskar. > > > > > , " Marg " <margie9@> wrote: > > > > Dear Pradeep > > > > Thanks for attempting to discern the differnce and similarities > between the two expressions. > > I still understand that Vak= voice, which is different to speech. > > The interpretation of Valmiki depends upon substantial knowledge of > history, cultural and ethnic variations, semantics, etymology as well > as sanskrit, and of course a very expert knowledge of the epoch he > lived in, and the politics of his day. > > > > best wishes > > Marg > > > > - > > vijayadas_pradeep > > > > Friday, November 16, 2007 3:47 PM > > Re: Horoscope of Lord Rama/Vachaspati > > > > > > Dear Ms Margaret > > > > Thanks for the reply. > > Here are some more thoughts which came to my mind.5th house is > also > > defined as Vak-Sthana.As we Know Vak originates from Nabhi (Navel) > > Region and is connected to Saraswati.That comes from mouth is > also > > Vak but the audible form(4th order).This can be termed as Vachana > as > > well as Vak.Perhaps origin of Vak is from Brahma Nabhi while > > Saraswati is manifested in 2nd.Guru is also the Karaka for the > 5th > > house.The disciple also is represented by 5th house.Thus the > effect > > and the Pathi can be explained from 2nd as well as 5th house. > > > > Regds > > Pradeep > > > > , " Marg " <margie9@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi Pradeep, > > > > > > Thanks ever so much for this thoughtful reply, it was very kind > of > > you > > > to take the time to write all that. > > > I'm sure as you say that there is a lot more to it, there > usually > > is:-) > > > I did think there might be a subtle difference between Vak and > > Vaka, > > > but even in Valmiki's day this may have become a little > clouded. > > > best wishes > > > Margaret > > > > > > - > > > vijayadas_pradeep > > > > > > Wednesday, November 14, 2007 4:30 PM > > > Re: Horoscope of Lord Rama/Vachaspati > > > > > > > > > Dear Ms.Margaret > > > > > > Sorry for the delay due to other priorities. > > > The question is not simple.The answer can go very deep and > hence > > i > > > need time. > > > > > > But i can give views. > > > In my daily parlance(Mothertongue) - Vacha and Vak are used as > > > synonymns.(Vachanam and Vak).They in literal sense means word > > and > > > vachana can mean divine word as well. > > > > > > I tried to check classics(Varahamihira Hora) and translation of > > > Vacha was given as Vak.Thus they can mean the same. > > > > > > But Vak can have higher meanings as it can also point to the > > very > > > root or origin source of knowledge.Astrologers do pray to > > > get ''Vak'' as a boon before starting any work. > > > > > > Brihaspati has Karakatwa over 2nd house and as per Upanishads > > mouth > > > has some principle which cannot be destroyed by demons.This can > > be > > > loosely termed as Fire principle.The mouth of Vaiswanara - > Horse > > is > > > also linked to Fire.Thus Vak is not a mere word when we go deep. > > > Thus Mercury and Jupiter can point to two aspects of > > Knowledge.One > > > being the Vak itself and the other being the Pati or lord. > > > Vacha-Vachaspati. > > > Vag-Devatha Saraswati rides a Swan(Hamsa).Hamsa has links with > > > Jupiter.Similarly Mercury's placement in 2nd is also considered > > for > > > Saraswati Yoga.Thus both are related to Vag or Vacha,but > through > > > different tattwas.Now sages have placed Mercury under Vacha and > > > Jupiter under Vachaspati.Translations (ancient one) do equate > > Vacha > > > with Vak.Thus Vachaspati can be Vakapati is my understanding or > > > conclusion. > > > > > > They have a common root is the essence.I have to admit that i > > need > > > to study more and your question is not that simple.Hope the > > answer > > > is sufficient:-). > > > > > > Regds > > > Pradeep > > > > > > , " Marg " <margie9@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Thanks Pradeep. > > > > I understand Vacha is synonym for Mercury, but the word was > > Vak, > > > are the two the same? Vak means Vacha? > > > > - > > > > vijayadas_pradeep > > > > > > > > Sunday, November 11, 2007 4:25 PM > > > > Re: Horoscope of Lord Rama/Vachaspati > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Ms Margaret and Mr.Patnaik > > > > > > > > Vacha is a synonymn for Mercury while Vachaspati points to > > > Jupiter. > > > > Thus Vak is Mercury and Vakpati is Brihaspati.Angiras,Sura > > > Guru,Vachas > > > > pati etc are for Guru). > > > > > > > > Hope this helps. > > > > > > > > Regds > > > > Pradeep > > > > > > > > , " Marg " <margie9@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi > > > > > > > > > > Thank you for the reply Kishore but I would like to add > > > another view. > > > > > > > > > > The translation you give seems to imply that it is not > > > intended to > > > > convey that Vak's ruleC is positively conjunct the Moon. > Could > > > it not > > > > also imply that the lord of Vak is rising within the moon's > > > vicinity > > > > as lagna rises in purnavasu, and this would then allow Venus > > in > > > the > > > > vicinity as lord of Vak. I also understand that Vak is voice, > > not > > > > speech, so still feel that Venus is a contender, and don't > > > understand > > > > the reasoning behind Jupiter being chosen to be significator > > of > > > Vak, > > > > sorry if this upsets anyone, but I am willing to look at any > > > evidence > > > > for your 'tradition' of Vak's lord from classics. > > > > > Is it being taken as inarguable that the zodiac had been > > fully > > > > defined and was being used in vedic times? I thought that the > > > vedas > > > > had no reference to the formal divisions of the nakshatras as > > > used in > > > > jyotish, and that the Moon merely pointing to Aditi alone, > > > rather than > > > > being in any ''pada'' was the way the vedas would refer to > > > > constellational influences? This is why I asked about the > > merits > > > of > > > > the source you quoted. > > > > > Does the reading really imply moon is in purnavasu or is it > > > just > > > > telling us that this is the constellation which is rising at > > the > > > time > > > > Rama is born? It was the constellation rising which was > > > considered > > > > important in vedic times surely, and divisions of nakshatras > > > were a > > > > later development. > > > > > Abhijit being employed in the manner you suggest is also a > > > modern > > > > practise surely.I'm quoting an expert astronomer here who is > > > saying > > > > there were originally 28 nakshatras in vedic times, not 27: > > > > > ''One of the original nakshatras had to be deleted. This > > could > > > not > > > > be done easily as the Vedas are considered to > be 'Apourusheya' > > > and no > > > > liberties are allowed. hence perhaps Abhijit was declared to > > be > > > an > > > > imaginary nakshatra meant only for phala'' > > > > > This is another reason I am asking who and how old the > > source > > > of > > > > your quote is? > > > > > I am sure that by reading Rama yourself you will find out > > more > > > than > > > > I can convey in an e mail, my version is translated by > > > Rajagopalachari > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > kishore patnaik > > > > > > > > > > Sunday, November 11, 2007 12:50 PM > > > > > Re: Horoscope of Lord Rama > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Marg, > > > > > > > > > > Good to read your mail. > > > > > > > > > > Bad things first: > > > > > > > > > > 1. Mercury or Venus can not conjuct with moon on a navami > > day. > > > > This is so > > > > > since the sun maintains a distance of 96 degrees or > > > more ,whereas > > > > Mercury > > > > > can not be more than 28 degrees away from sun and venus, 72 > > > > degrees- thus > > > > > venus has some chance if the moon is in the last degrees of > > a > > > sign > > > > but here > > > > > moon is in the very beginning of the cancer. Hence, it has > > got > > > to be > > > > > jupiter. Btw, traditionally vakpati means mercury and not > > > venus. > > > > > > > > > > 2. Abhijit lagna is that muhurtha during which the noon > > > falls.It > > > > starts at > > > > > the end of 7.5 muhurtha after the sun rise and goes on till > > 8.5 > > > > muhurtha. As > > > > > every other muhurtha, it lasts for 48 minutes. So, there is > > > every > > > > > possibility that Rama was born in abhijeet muhurtha with > sun > > in > > > > pisces and > > > > > lagna falling in cancer > > > > > > > > > > Now, the good things: > > > > > > > > > > 1. Great to see that you are now trying to interpret the > > > cosmological > > > > > meaning of the slokas Please keep it up I will catch up if > I > > > find > > > > a spark > > > > > 2. I do not know about relation between trisanku and rama's > > > birth, > > > > though > > > > > trisanku was indeed rama's ancestor and was tried to be > sent > > to > > > > Heavens > > > > > bodily by Viswamitra who again played a big role during > > Rama's > > > times. > > > > > Please fill me up. > > > > > > > > > > Thnks for the mail once again,. > > > > > > > > > > Kishore patnaik > > > > > 98492 70729 > > > > > > > > > > On 11/11/07, Marg <margie9@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Kishore > > > > > > Please would you identify the source of your information? > > > > > > I have just re read the mail you sent with the > > interpretation > > > > in, and > > > > > > would like query that the ruler of Vak is Jupiter or > > Mercury? > > > > > > Vak is voice, voice is ruled by Taurus, Venus rules > > Taurus, > > > so > > > > Venus as > > > > > > ruler of vak must be in first house with the Moon. > > > > > > Voice is different to speech , a third house affair, > which > > is > > > > ruled by > > > > > > Mercury. One can have vak or voice, but no speech. Venus > > > Lord of > > > > Vak would > > > > > > therefore appear to be in Cancer in the ascendant surely? > > > > > > Also the reference to abhijijit is a little obscure. > Isn't > > > abhijit > > > > > > employed as an intercalary adjustment to align the sun > > with > > > the > > > > moon's > > > > > > motion? If abhijit is being referred to is it directing > > > > attention to an > > > > > > adjustment to nomral motion being made,which might affect > > the > > > > expected usual > > > > > > distance between sun and moon on navami? > > > > > > Out of interest sake I just re read the opening of > > Ramayana, > > > a > > > > brilliant > > > > > > epic, and realised that the epoch at which Rama is born is > > > > during the > > > > > > creation of constellations in the southern path by > > Trisanku, > > > > king of the > > > > > > solar dynasty.In fact the birth of Ram and his brothers > is > > an > > > > allegory of > > > > > > the creation of Aries, Taurus and the twins Gemini don't > > you > > > think? > > > > > > > > > > > > best wishes > > > > > > Margaret > > > > > > > > > > > > Sunday, November 04, 2007 9:24 AM > > > > > > Horoscope of Lord Rama > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear all, > > > > > > > > > > > > I am looking at the horoscope of Sri Rama for the past > few > > > days. > > > > I am > > > > > > giving below the slokas connected with > > > > > > the birth : > > > > > > > > > > > > tato yaj~ne samaapte tu R^itUnaam SaT samatyayuH | > > > > > > tataH ca dvaadashe maase chaitre naavamike tithau || 1- 18- > 8 > > > > > > nakxatre aditi daivatye sva ucCha sa.nstheShu pa.nchasu | > > > > > > graheShu kar.hkaTe lagne vaakpataa i.ndunaa saha || 1- 18-9 > > > > > > prodyamaane jagannaatham sarva loka namaskR^itam | > > > > > > kausalyaa ajanayat raamam sarva lakSaNa sa.myutam || 1- 18- > > 10 > > > > > > viSNoH ardham mahaabhaagam putram aixvaaku na.ndanam | > > > > > > lohitaaksham mahaabaahum rak{}ta oSTam du.ndubhi svanam > || > > 1- > > > 18-11 > > > > > > > > > > > > 8, 9, 10, 11. tataH yaj~ne samaapte= then, ritual, on > > > completion; > > > > > > R^ituuNaam > > > > > > SaT sam atyayuH= seasons, six, well, passed by; tataH= > > then; > > > > dvaadashe > > > > > > maase= in twelfth, month; chaitre naavamike tithau= > > chaitra > > > month > > > > > > [April-May], ninth, day; nakshatre aditi daivatye= star > of > > > the day > > > > > > [punarvasu,] [whose presiding is] Aditi; panchasu graheSu > > > swa uccha > > > > > > samstheshu= of five, planets, in their own, highest, > > > positing; > > > > karkaTe > > > > > > lagne= in Cancer [of Zodiac]; vaak patiH indunaa saha= > when > > > > Speech's, Lord > > > > > > [Jupiter,] is [with] Moon, along with; pra udyamane= when > > > > raising � > > > > > > ascending, advancing daytime � abhijit lagna; > kausalyaa= > > > Queen > > > > Kausalya; > > > > > > jagat naatham= worlds', lord [Vishnu]; sarva loka > > > namaskR^itam= > > > > by all, > > > > > > worlds, adored; divya lakshana samyutam= divine, > > attributes, > > > > along with; > > > > > > viSNoH= Vishnu's; artham= epitome of [not half of > Vishnu]; > > > mahaa > > > > bhaagam= > > > > > > greatly blessed one; ikshwaaku nandanam= Ikshvaaku > dynasty, > > > > delight of; > > > > > > lohita aksham= lotus-red, eyes; mahaa baahum= lengthy, > > armed; > > > > rakta oSTam= > > > > > > roseate, lips; dundubhi svanam= drumbeat, voiced; raamam= > > > Rama > > > > as; putram= > > > > > > the son; ajanayat= gave birth. > > > > > > > > > > > > if you carefully look at this, the following are clear: > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. The birth occured in chaitra masa on the tithi of > Navami > > > > > > 2. The birth occured in Punarvasu nakshatra > > > > > > 3. The lagna is Cancer > > > > > > 4. Moon is in lagna > > > > > > > > > > > > The following two points are to be discussed. > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. here, the planet with which moon is there is said to be > > > > vakpati. Is it > > > > > > Mercury or Jupiter? Obviously, he is Jupiter since > Mercury > > > could > > > > not be > > > > > > with Moon on a Navami day. > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. The five planets mentioned here are either in swa > (own) > > or > > > > > > uccha(exalted) > > > > > > positions. It should not be taken that there are five > > planets > > > > which are in > > > > > > exaltation, which seems to be popular refrain > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. These five planets are Moon, Mars, Jupiter, Venus and > > > Saturn. > > > > While the > > > > > > sloka fixes the places of Moon and Jupiter, the other > three > > > > planets places > > > > > > can be fixed only by discussion > > > > > > > > > > > > 4. Clearly, Sun can not be in exaltation when Moon is in > > > cancer on a > > > > > > navami > > > > > > day. The distance between moon and sun should be more > than > > > 108 > > > > degrees. > > > > > > hence, the place of sun also can be fixed to pisces. > Thus, > > > the > > > > place of > > > > > > mercury is to be bound by three rasis- aqua, pisces or > > aries. > > > > > > > > > > > > Hence, I would post my reasoning of planetary positions > > after > > > > hearing from > > > > > > all of you. > > > > > > > > > > > > with best regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > kishore patnaik > > > > > > 98492 70729 > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 16, 2007 Report Share Posted November 16, 2007 Dear Pradeep Thanks again for your unique ability to cut to the quick. Pardon the poor timing due to Ketu transit at the moment as well as mercury retro and my server capability best wishes m - Bhaskar Friday, November 16, 2007 5:32 PM Re: Horoscope of Lord Rama/Vachaspati Dear pradeepji, Please guide which God/Goddess to worship for Rahu pacification ? AND Which God/Goddess to worship for Jupiter pacification ? Please no other member reply this, before Pradeepji replies,and I reply him back. regards/Bhaskar. , " vijayadas_pradeep " <vijayadas_pradeep wrote: > > Dear Ms Margaret > > Thanks for the reply. > Here are some more thoughts which came to my mind.5th house is also > defined as Vak-Sthana.As we Know Vak originates from Nabhi(Navel) > Region and is connected to Saraswati.That comes from mouth is also > Vak but the audible form(4th order).This can be termed as Vachana as > well as Vak.Perhaps origin of Vak is from Brahma Nabhi while > Saraswati is manifested in 2nd.Guru is also the Karaka for the 5th > house.The disciple also is represented by 5th house.Thus the effect > and the Pathi can be explained from 2nd as well as 5th house. > > Regds > Pradeep > > , " Marg " <margie9@> wrote: > > > > Hi Pradeep, > > > > Thanks ever so much for this thoughtful reply, it was very kind of > you > > to take the time to write all that. > > I'm sure as you say that there is a lot more to it, there usually > is:-) > > I did think there might be a subtle difference between Vak and > Vaka, > > but even in Valmiki's day this may have become a little clouded. > > best wishes > > Margaret > > > > - > > vijayadas_pradeep > > > > Wednesday, November 14, 2007 4:30 PM > > Re: Horoscope of Lord Rama/Vachaspati > > > > > > Dear Ms.Margaret > > > > Sorry for the delay due to other priorities. > > The question is not simple.The answer can go very deep and hence > i > > need time. > > > > But i can give views. > > In my daily parlance(Mothertongue) - Vacha and Vak are used as > > synonymns.(Vachanam and Vak).They in literal sense means word > and > > vachana can mean divine word as well. > > > > I tried to check classics(Varahamihira Hora) and translation of > > Vacha was given as Vak.Thus they can mean the same. > > > > But Vak can have higher meanings as it can also point to the > very > > root or origin source of knowledge.Astrologers do pray to > > get ''Vak'' as a boon before starting any work. > > > > Brihaspati has Karakatwa over 2nd house and as per Upanishads > mouth > > has some principle which cannot be destroyed by demons.This can > be > > loosely termed as Fire principle.The mouth of Vaiswanara - Horse > is > > also linked to Fire.Thus Vak is not a mere word when we go deep. > > Thus Mercury and Jupiter can point to two aspects of > Knowledge.One > > being the Vak itself and the other being the Pati or lord. > > Vacha-Vachaspati. > > Vag-Devatha Saraswati rides a Swan(Hamsa).Hamsa has links with > > Jupiter.Similarly Mercury's placement in 2nd is also considered > for > > Saraswati Yoga.Thus both are related to Vag or Vacha,but through > > different tattwas.Now sages have placed Mercury under Vacha and > > Jupiter under Vachaspati.Translations (ancient one) do equate > Vacha > > with Vak.Thus Vachaspati can be Vakapati is my understanding or > > conclusion. > > > > They have a common root is the essence.I have to admit that i > need > > to study more and your question is not that simple.Hope the > answer > > is sufficient:-). > > > > Regds > > Pradeep > > > > , " Marg " <margie9@> wrote: > > > > > > Thanks Pradeep. > > > I understand Vacha is synonym for Mercury, but the word was > Vak, > > are the two the same? Vak means Vacha? > > > - > > > vijayadas_pradeep > > > > > > Sunday, November 11, 2007 4:25 PM > > > Re: Horoscope of Lord Rama/Vachaspati > > > > > > > > > Dear Ms Margaret and Mr.Patnaik > > > > > > Vacha is a synonymn for Mercury while Vachaspati points to > > Jupiter. > > > Thus Vak is Mercury and Vakpati is Brihaspati.Angiras,Sura > > Guru,Vachas > > > pati etc are for Guru). > > > > > > Hope this helps. > > > > > > Regds > > > Pradeep > > > > > > , " Marg " <margie9@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi > > > > > > > > Thank you for the reply Kishore but I would like to add > > another view. > > > > > > > > The translation you give seems to imply that it is not > > intended to > > > convey that Vak's ruleC is positively conjunct the Moon. Could > > it not > > > also imply that the lord of Vak is rising within the moon's > > vicinity > > > as lagna rises in purnavasu, and this would then allow Venus > in > > the > > > vicinity as lord of Vak. I also understand that Vak is voice, > not > > > speech, so still feel that Venus is a contender, and don't > > understand > > > the reasoning behind Jupiter being chosen to be significator > of > > Vak, > > > sorry if this upsets anyone, but I am willing to look at any > > evidence > > > for your 'tradition' of Vak's lord from classics. > > > > Is it being taken as inarguable that the zodiac had been > fully > > > defined and was being used in vedic times? I thought that the > > vedas > > > had no reference to the formal divisions of the nakshatras as > > used in > > > jyotish, and that the Moon merely pointing to Aditi alone, > > rather than > > > being in any ''pada'' was the way the vedas would refer to > > > constellational influences? This is why I asked about the > merits > > of > > > the source you quoted. > > > > Does the reading really imply moon is in purnavasu or is it > > just > > > telling us that this is the constellation which is rising at > the > > time > > > Rama is born? It was the constellation rising which was > > considered > > > important in vedic times surely, and divisions of nakshatras > > were a > > > later development. > > > > Abhijit being employed in the manner you suggest is also a > > modern > > > practise surely.I'm quoting an expert astronomer here who is > > saying > > > there were originally 28 nakshatras in vedic times, not 27: > > > > ''One of the original nakshatras had to be deleted. This > could > > not > > > be done easily as the Vedas are considered to be 'Apourusheya' > > and no > > > liberties are allowed. hence perhaps Abhijit was declared to > be > > an > > > imaginary nakshatra meant only for phala'' > > > > This is another reason I am asking who and how old the > source > > of > > > your quote is? > > > > I am sure that by reading Rama yourself you will find out > more > > than > > > I can convey in an e mail, my version is translated by > > Rajagopalachari > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > kishore patnaik > > > > > > > > Sunday, November 11, 2007 12:50 PM > > > > Re: Horoscope of Lord Rama > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Marg, > > > > > > > > Good to read your mail. > > > > > > > > Bad things first: > > > > > > > > 1. Mercury or Venus can not conjuct with moon on a navami > day. > > > This is so > > > > since the sun maintains a distance of 96 degrees or > > more ,whereas > > > Mercury > > > > can not be more than 28 degrees away from sun and venus, 72 > > > degrees- thus > > > > venus has some chance if the moon is in the last degrees of > a > > sign > > > but here > > > > moon is in the very beginning of the cancer. Hence, it has > got > > to be > > > > jupiter. Btw, traditionally vakpati means mercury and not > > venus. > > > > > > > > 2. Abhijit lagna is that muhurtha during which the noon > > falls.It > > > starts at > > > > the end of 7.5 muhurtha after the sun rise and goes on till > 8.5 > > > muhurtha. As > > > > every other muhurtha, it lasts for 48 minutes. So, there is > > every > > > > possibility that Rama was born in abhijeet muhurtha with sun > in > > > pisces and > > > > lagna falling in cancer > > > > > > > > Now, the good things: > > > > > > > > 1. Great to see that you are now trying to interpret the > > cosmological > > > > meaning of the slokas Please keep it up I will catch up if I > > find > > > a spark > > > > 2. I do not know about relation between trisanku and rama's > > birth, > > > though > > > > trisanku was indeed rama's ancestor and was tried to be sent > to > > > Heavens > > > > bodily by Viswamitra who again played a big role during > Rama's > > times. > > > > Please fill me up. > > > > > > > > Thnks for the mail once again,. > > > > > > > > Kishore patnaik > > > > 98492 70729 > > > > > > > > On 11/11/07, Marg <margie9@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Kishore > > > > > Please would you identify the source of your information? > > > > > I have just re read the mail you sent with the > interpretation > > > in, and > > > > > would like query that the ruler of Vak is Jupiter or > Mercury? > > > > > Vak is voice, voice is ruled by Taurus, Venus rules > Taurus, > > so > > > Venus as > > > > > ruler of vak must be in first house with the Moon. > > > > > Voice is different to speech , a third house affair, which > is > > > ruled by > > > > > Mercury. One can have vak or voice, but no speech. Venus > > Lord of > > > Vak would > > > > > therefore appear to be in Cancer in the ascendant surely? > > > > > Also the reference to abhijijit is a little obscure. Isn't > > abhijit > > > > > employed as an intercalary adjustment to align the sun > with > > the > > > moon's > > > > > motion? If abhijit is being referred to is it directing > > > attention to an > > > > > adjustment to nomral motion being made,which might affect > the > > > expected usual > > > > > distance between sun and moon on navami? > > > > > Out of interest sake I just re read the opening of > Ramayana, > > a > > > brilliant > > > > > epic, and realised that the epoch at which Rama is born is > > > during the > > > > > creation of constellations in the southern path by > Trisanku, > > > king of the > > > > > solar dynasty.In fact the birth of Ram and his brothers is > an > > > allegory of > > > > > the creation of Aries, Taurus and the twins Gemini don't > you > > think? > > > > > > > > > > best wishes > > > > > Margaret > > > > > > > > > > Sunday, November 04, 2007 9:24 AM > > > > > Horoscope of Lord Rama > > > > > > > > > > Dear all, > > > > > > > > > > I am looking at the horoscope of Sri Rama for the past few > > days. > > > I am > > > > > giving below the slokas connected with > > > > > the birth : > > > > > > > > > > tato yaj~ne samaapte tu R^itUnaam SaT samatyayuH | > > > > > tataH ca dvaadashe maase chaitre naavamike tithau || 1-18- 8 > > > > > nakxatre aditi daivatye sva ucCha sa.nstheShu pa.nchasu | > > > > > graheShu kar.hkaTe lagne vaakpataa i.ndunaa saha || 1-18-9 > > > > > prodyamaane jagannaatham sarva loka namaskR^itam | > > > > > kausalyaa ajanayat raamam sarva lakSaNa sa.myutam || 1-18- > 10 > > > > > viSNoH ardham mahaabhaagam putram aixvaaku na.ndanam | > > > > > lohitaaksham mahaabaahum rak{}ta oSTam du.ndubhi svanam || > 1- > > 18-11 > > > > > > > > > > 8, 9, 10, 11. tataH yaj~ne samaapte= then, ritual, on > > completion; > > > > > R^ituuNaam > > > > > SaT sam atyayuH= seasons, six, well, passed by; tataH= > then; > > > dvaadashe > > > > > maase= in twelfth, month; chaitre naavamike tithau= > chaitra > > month > > > > > [April-May], ninth, day; nakshatre aditi daivatye= star of > > the day > > > > > [punarvasu,] [whose presiding is] Aditi; panchasu graheSu > > swa uccha > > > > > samstheshu= of five, planets, in their own, highest, > > positing; > > > karkaTe > > > > > lagne= in Cancer [of Zodiac]; vaak patiH indunaa saha= when > > > Speech's, Lord > > > > > [Jupiter,] is [with] Moon, along with; pra udyamane= when > > > raising � > > > > > ascending, advancing daytime � abhijit lagna; kausalyaa= > > Queen > > > Kausalya; > > > > > jagat naatham= worlds', lord [Vishnu]; sarva loka > > namaskR^itam= > > > by all, > > > > > worlds, adored; divya lakshana samyutam= divine, > attributes, > > > along with; > > > > > viSNoH= Vishnu's; artham= epitome of [not half of Vishnu]; > > mahaa > > > bhaagam= > > > > > greatly blessed one; ikshwaaku nandanam= Ikshvaaku dynasty, > > > delight of; > > > > > lohita aksham= lotus-red, eyes; mahaa baahum= lengthy, > armed; > > > rakta oSTam= > > > > > roseate, lips; dundubhi svanam= drumbeat, voiced; raamam= > > Rama > > > as; putram= > > > > > the son; ajanayat= gave birth. > > > > > > > > > > if you carefully look at this, the following are clear: > > > > > > > > > > 1. The birth occured in chaitra masa on the tithi of Navami > > > > > 2. The birth occured in Punarvasu nakshatra > > > > > 3. The lagna is Cancer > > > > > 4. Moon is in lagna > > > > > > > > > > The following two points are to be discussed. > > > > > > > > > > 1. here, the planet with which moon is there is said to be > > > vakpati. Is it > > > > > Mercury or Jupiter? Obviously, he is Jupiter since Mercury > > could > > > not be > > > > > with Moon on a Navami day. > > > > > > > > > > 2. The five planets mentioned here are either in swa (own) > or > > > > > uccha(exalted) > > > > > positions. It should not be taken that there are five > planets > > > which are in > > > > > exaltation, which seems to be popular refrain > > > > > > > > > > 3. These five planets are Moon, Mars, Jupiter, Venus and > > Saturn. > > > While the > > > > > sloka fixes the places of Moon and Jupiter, the other three > > > planets places > > > > > can be fixed only by discussion > > > > > > > > > > 4. Clearly, Sun can not be in exaltation when Moon is in > > cancer on a > > > > > navami > > > > > day. The distance between moon and sun should be more than > > 108 > > > degrees. > > > > > hence, the place of sun also can be fixed to pisces. Thus, > > the > > > place of > > > > > mercury is to be bound by three rasis- aqua, pisces or > aries. > > > > > > > > > > Hence, I would post my reasoning of planetary positions > after > > > hearing from > > > > > all of you. > > > > > > > > > > with best regards, > > > > > > > > > > kishore patnaik > > > > > 98492 70729 > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 2007 Report Share Posted November 17, 2007 If I may intervene, Sri Dhananjay, That special drishti possessed by sages is what is called Yoga drishti. Sages obtain such drishti through their tapasya, or deep penance. It is a meta-physical concept. Who limit their thought process only to physical processes and physical evidences, cannot understand the meta-physical processes unfortunately. With the kind of corrupted life styles today's humans cannot easily get such yoga drishti. You may accept or not accept what I said. But this is the only answer you can get. So long as you limit yourself for physical proof or existence, you will never get answer for this question. Also note, that ideally Indian history has nothing to do with the reference point of birth of Christ. It was just one point of time as far as Indian history is concerned. For the convenience of today's dealings in the International community, that reference point is adopted, just like we take Greenwich mean time as a reference point. Best regards, Satya Sai Kolachina , " gupta089 " <gupta089 wrote: > > Respected Marg > It is good for us that u are member of this > group. An astronomer in u is present here. > Ihave very little knowledge of astronomy, so I am > dependent on you. > Iwant to know just for my satisfaction because > my mind do not allow me to take any thing for granted. > Do u think that it was possible for people 2000 or > 3000 years before Christ without using special Dhristi > or telescope to observe faraway planets such as Sat. > for astrological purpose. Ones i read that ancient > people do not know about retrogate planets or they > had some doubt. > Since u have scientific knowledge of astronomy, > just say yes or no and i will accept it. > What i mean to say that if suppose i start watching > sky (with some basic knowledge and assumption) without > telescope and continue it for years recording each > and every data about the planets and nakashtras then > at last will i be able to cast horoscope or develop > panchang > Suggest me some books on astronomy. > > Regards > Dhananjay > > > , " Marg " <margie9@> wrote: > > > > Hi Dhananjay > > I would be interested to hear of any other method also. > > > > I do think it is very easy to understand the motion and path of the > planets without a telescope. All you have to do it look at the sky, > know the sky, its seasons and its cyclic motions. The fact that some > stars are not so bright is not a problem. > > The full moon is a good marker for planetary pathways and this is > perhaps why it was singled out as a key marker for events. > > best wishes > > m > > - > > gupta089 > > > > Thursday, November 15, 2007 2:45 PM > > Fw: Re: Horoscope of Lord Rama/Vachaspati > > > > > > I HAVE ONE PROBLEM MY MESSAGES ARE POSTED > > MUCH AFTER I SEND. > > > > Interesting Marg > > Interesting. > > thnks for the reply > > People think that i argue very much, this u also > > must have noticed when i was dealing with " past > > Karma and present Bhagya " in this group. > > But i am in search of truth. > > It does not matter for me who first invented > > zodiac and nakshatra or who is superior or who > > is inferior or which ascendent is most perfect. > > Indians defeated and pushed back the Alexander > > the Great, who suffered heavy loses. > > > > As we ordinary people believe that ancient seers > > in Vedic period possesed (Divya Dhristi)ie super- > > natural sight through which they used to see exact > > position of planets & nakshatra anywhere anytime. > > It is true that Indians were very briliant in > > mathematics in the past and they must have divided > > the zodiac in 12 division and further into many divisions. > > which is easy task. > > AS we can today, they were also able to map Sun Moon > > & Nakshatras in the sky and calculate their motion. > > But it seems impossible to locate the planets > > which do not emit light & then do calculation for > > their exact path without the aid of telescope, > > much earlier the birth of Christ. > > > > What do u think > > Waiting for reply of other members also. > > Regards > > Dhananjay > > > > , " Marg " <margie9@> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Dhananjay and those interested, > > > > > > First of all sorry for untimely mails my server has had Mercury > > retro.....................:-) > > > > > > I also thought you might enjoy this little method employed by > many > > ancient astrologers to locate planetary positions exactly. > > > > > > Chinese astrologers, and perhaps others we haven't yet found > out > > about, though I suspect the Egyptians too, use Ursa Major to tell > the > > time. > > > First of all locate the constellation at a specific date and > time > > and note which architectural feature near your home the 'handle' > is > > pointing to. > > > > > > Ursa Major revolves around the sky once a day but gives a total > > rotation once a year, so by watching it daily you can note the > > movement carefully yourself. > > > > > > The position moves just short of one degree every four minutes, > and > > one degree is about twice the width of the full moon, so it gives > a > > quarter of a revolution every six hours. The position will have > > shifted one degree each day at the same time, or a quarter turn > every > > three months. > > > > > > Over one lifetime this doesn't alter significantly, but over > many > > millennia precession affects it radically which is why there is a > > need to keep watching which star is nearest the north pole, and > > changing the constellation you use in order to tell the time. > > > > > > As I mentioned earlier it takes 4800 years for Thuban to shift > its > > location and give way to Polaris at the North Pole. The total > years > > for this precession of the North to South constellational path is > > 25920 years, and it would affect which constellations are visible > > above or below the horizon, also our clock times would be out of > > synchrony with sun rising and setting times. For instance in year > > 2500 9 o clock would be the new twelve o clock! > > > > > > I also believe this is the method ancient astrologers used to > give > > predictions about the destiny of nations, and of the earth itself. > > > best wishes > > > M > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Original Message ----- > > > gupta089 > > > > > > Thursday, November 15, 2007 4:10 AM > > > Re: Horoscope of Lord Rama/Vachaspati > > > > > > Dear Marg > > > Can u explain how without the aid of telescope > > > ancient people used to see and calculate exact > > > position of planets > > > > > > Dhananjay > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 2007 Report Share Posted November 17, 2007 Dear all, I am quoting here what was purport of the word ' vak' in the Valimiki's times. Apparently, it denotes Veda (the Divine word) whichfor which significator is Jupiter. Obviously we are all discussing with half knowledge with what we know of the meanings of vaak as on date. Hope this clears the air, " word vaak means: enunciator - as given above; This word also means Veda - anaadi nidhano hi eSaa vaak utshR^iSTaa Veda-s emerged from that Absolute, hence vaak is identifiable with that Absolute; and this is grammar - vaak yoga viddduSyati ca apashabde as such vaak is identifiable with grammar. And vaak vid vareNya is 'one who has complete information derived from Veda-s, or, one who elucidates and enunciates what he has learned from Veda-s to others...' regards, Kishore patnaik 98492 70729 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 2007 Report Share Posted November 17, 2007 Dear Kishoreji, In Ramayana the meaning of " Vaka " would represent what views have been expressed by You. In Astrology the views of " Vaka " would change. In judging the singing or oratory powers from a bunch of speakers or singers, again the meaning of " Vaka " would change. It thus becomes a relative term in its meaningful expression wrt what lies in the background, or context to what we are speaking of. regards, Bhaskar. In , " kishore patnaik " <kishorepatnaik09 wrote: > > Dear all, > > I am quoting here what was purport of the word ' vak' in the Valimiki's > times. Apparently, it denotes Veda (the Divine word) whichfor which > significator is Jupiter. Obviously we are all discussing with half knowledge > with what we know of the meanings of vaak as on date. Hope this clears the > air, > > " word vaak means: enunciator - as given above; This word also means > Veda - anaadi > nidhano hi eSaa vaak utshR^iSTaa Veda-s emerged from that Absolute, hence vaak > is identifiable with that Absolute; and this is grammar - vaak yoga > viddduSyati ca apashabde as such vaak is identifiable with grammar. And vaak > vid vareNya is 'one who has complete information derived from Veda- s, or, > one who elucidates and enunciates what he has learned from Veda-s to > others...' > > > regards, > Kishore patnaik > 98492 70729 > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 2007 Report Share Posted November 17, 2007 Dear bhaskarji, namaskar. with all best intentions, we have discussed the question here. Personally, I felt I have spoken with half knowledge with out relevance to the meanings intended by Valmiki. Once I have read the parah, which was given in another context, the coin fell and I understood why Valmiki has used the word vakpati for Jupiter. All these are experiences in life, which God wants us to be humble. regards, Kishore patnaik 98492 70729 On 11/17/07, Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish wrote: > > > Dear Kishoreji, > > In Ramayana the meaning of " Vaka " would represent > what views have been expressed by You. > In Astrology the views of " Vaka " would change. > In judging the singing or oratory powers > from a bunch of speakers or singers, again > the meaning of " Vaka " would change. > > It thus becomes a relative term in its > meaningful expression wrt what lies in the background, > or context to what we are speaking of. > > regards, > Bhaskar. > > In <%40>, " kishore > patnaik " > <kishorepatnaik09 wrote: > > > > Dear all, > > > > I am quoting here what was purport of the word ' vak' in the > Valimiki's > > times. Apparently, it denotes Veda (the Divine word) whichfor which > > significator is Jupiter. Obviously we are all discussing with half > knowledge > > with what we know of the meanings of vaak as on date. Hope this > clears the > > air, > > > > " word vaak means: enunciator - as given above; This word also means > > Veda - anaadi > > nidhano hi eSaa vaak utshR^iSTaa Veda-s emerged from that Absolute, > hence vaak > > is identifiable with that Absolute; and this is grammar - vaak yoga > > viddduSyati ca apashabde as such vaak is identifiable with grammar. > And vaak > > vid vareNya is 'one who has complete information derived from Veda- > s, or, > > one who elucidates and enunciates what he has learned from Veda-s to > > others...' > > > > > > regards, > > Kishore patnaik > > 98492 70729 > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 2007 Report Share Posted November 17, 2007 Dear Dhananjay, Yes best wishes M - gupta089 Friday, November 16, 2007 1:19 PM Re: Horoscope of Lord Rama/Vachaspati Respected Marg It is good for us that u are member of this group. An astronomer in u is present here. Ihave very little knowledge of astronomy, so I am dependent on you. Iwant to know just for my satisfaction because my mind do not allow me to take any thing for granted. Do u think that it was possible for people 2000 or 3000 years before Christ without using special Dhristi or telescope to observe faraway planets such as Sat. for astrological purpose. Ones i read that ancient people do not know about retrogate planets or they had some doubt. Since u have scientific knowledge of astronomy, just say yes or no and i will accept it. What i mean to say that if suppose i start watching sky (with some basic knowledge and assumption) without telescope and continue it for years recording each and every data about the planets and nakashtras then at last will i be able to cast horoscope or develop panchang Suggest me some books on astronomy. Regards Dhananjay , " Marg " <margie9 wrote: > > Hi Dhananjay > I would be interested to hear of any other method also. > > I do think it is very easy to understand the motion and path of the planets without a telescope. All you have to do it look at the sky, know the sky, its seasons and its cyclic motions. The fact that some stars are not so bright is not a problem. > The full moon is a good marker for planetary pathways and this is perhaps why it was singled out as a key marker for events. > best wishes > m > - > gupta089 > > Thursday, November 15, 2007 2:45 PM > Fw: Re: Horoscope of Lord Rama/Vachaspati > > > I HAVE ONE PROBLEM MY MESSAGES ARE POSTED > MUCH AFTER I SEND. > > Interesting Marg > Interesting. > thnks for the reply > People think that i argue very much, this u also > must have noticed when i was dealing with " past > Karma and present Bhagya " in this group. > But i am in search of truth. > It does not matter for me who first invented > zodiac and nakshatra or who is superior or who > is inferior or which ascendent is most perfect. > Indians defeated and pushed back the Alexander > the Great, who suffered heavy loses. > > As we ordinary people believe that ancient seers > in Vedic period possesed (Divya Dhristi)ie super- > natural sight through which they used to see exact > position of planets & nakshatra anywhere anytime. > It is true that Indians were very briliant in > mathematics in the past and they must have divided > the zodiac in 12 division and further into many divisions. > which is easy task. > AS we can today, they were also able to map Sun Moon > & Nakshatras in the sky and calculate their motion. > But it seems impossible to locate the planets > which do not emit light & then do calculation for > their exact path without the aid of telescope, > much earlier the birth of Christ. > > What do u think > Waiting for reply of other members also. > Regards > Dhananjay > > , " Marg " <margie9@> wrote: > > > > Dear Dhananjay and those interested, > > > > First of all sorry for untimely mails my server has had Mercury > retro.....................:-) > > > > I also thought you might enjoy this little method employed by many > ancient astrologers to locate planetary positions exactly. > > > > Chinese astrologers, and perhaps others we haven't yet found out > about, though I suspect the Egyptians too, use Ursa Major to tell the > time. > > First of all locate the constellation at a specific date and time > and note which architectural feature near your home the 'handle' is > pointing to. > > > > Ursa Major revolves around the sky once a day but gives a total > rotation once a year, so by watching it daily you can note the > movement carefully yourself. > > > > The position moves just short of one degree every four minutes, and > one degree is about twice the width of the full moon, so it gives a > quarter of a revolution every six hours. The position will have > shifted one degree each day at the same time, or a quarter turn every > three months. > > > > Over one lifetime this doesn't alter significantly, but over many > millennia precession affects it radically which is why there is a > need to keep watching which star is nearest the north pole, and > changing the constellation you use in order to tell the time. > > > > As I mentioned earlier it takes 4800 years for Thuban to shift its > location and give way to Polaris at the North Pole. The total years > for this precession of the North to South constellational path is > 25920 years, and it would affect which constellations are visible > above or below the horizon, also our clock times would be out of > synchrony with sun rising and setting times. For instance in year > 2500 9 o clock would be the new twelve o clock! > > > > I also believe this is the method ancient astrologers used to give > predictions about the destiny of nations, and of the earth itself. > > best wishes > > M > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Original Message ----- > > gupta089 > > > > Thursday, November 15, 2007 4:10 AM > > Re: Horoscope of Lord Rama/Vachaspati > > > > Dear Marg > > Can u explain how without the aid of telescope > > ancient people used to see and calculate exact > > position of planets > > > > Dhananjay > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 2007 Report Share Posted November 17, 2007 Respected Satya ji thanks I respect your knowledge and i respect all the members of this group. May lord venus keep us united. Regards Dhananjay , " Satya Sai Kolachina " <skolachi wrote: > > If I may intervene, > > Sri Dhananjay, > > That special drishti possessed by sages is what is called Yoga > drishti. Sages obtain such drishti through their tapasya, or deep > penance. It is a meta-physical concept. Who limit their thought > process only to physical processes and physical evidences, cannot > understand the meta-physical processes unfortunately. With the kind > of corrupted life styles today's humans cannot easily get such yoga > drishti. > > You may accept or not accept what I said. But this is the only answer > you can get. So long as you limit yourself for physical proof or > existence, you will never get answer for this question. > > Also note, that ideally Indian history has nothing to do with the > reference point of birth of Christ. It was just one point of time as > far as Indian history is concerned. For the convenience of today's > dealings in the International community, that reference point is > adopted, just like we take Greenwich mean time as a reference point. > > Best regards, > > Satya Sai Kolachina > > , " gupta089 " <gupta089@> wrote: > > > > Respected Marg > > It is good for us that u are member of this > > group. An astronomer in u is present here. > > Ihave very little knowledge of astronomy, so I am > > dependent on you. > > Iwant to know just for my satisfaction because > > my mind do not allow me to take any thing for granted. > > Do u think that it was possible for people 2000 or > > 3000 years before Christ without using special Dhristi > > or telescope to observe faraway planets such as Sat. > > for astrological purpose. Ones i read that ancient > > people do not know about retrogate planets or they > > had some doubt. > > Since u have scientific knowledge of astronomy, > > just say yes or no and i will accept it. > > What i mean to say that if suppose i start watching > > sky (with some basic knowledge and assumption) without > > telescope and continue it for years recording each > > and every data about the planets and nakashtras then > > at last will i be able to cast horoscope or develop > > panchang > > Suggest me some books on astronomy. > > > > Regards > > Dhananjay > > > > > > , " Marg " <margie9@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi Dhananjay > > > I would be interested to hear of any other method also. > > > > > > I do think it is very easy to understand the motion and path of > the > > planets without a telescope. All you have to do it look at the sky, > > know the sky, its seasons and its cyclic motions. The fact that > some > > stars are not so bright is not a problem. > > > The full moon is a good marker for planetary pathways and this is > > perhaps why it was singled out as a key marker for events. > > > best wishes > > > m > > > - > > > gupta089 > > > > > > Thursday, November 15, 2007 2:45 PM > > > Fw: Re: Horoscope of Lord > Rama/Vachaspati > > > > > > > > > I HAVE ONE PROBLEM MY MESSAGES ARE POSTED > > > MUCH AFTER I SEND. > > > > > > Interesting Marg > > > Interesting. > > > thnks for the reply > > > People think that i argue very much, this u also > > > must have noticed when i was dealing with " past > > > Karma and present Bhagya " in this group. > > > But i am in search of truth. > > > It does not matter for me who first invented > > > zodiac and nakshatra or who is superior or who > > > is inferior or which ascendent is most perfect. > > > Indians defeated and pushed back the Alexander > > > the Great, who suffered heavy loses. > > > > > > As we ordinary people believe that ancient seers > > > in Vedic period possesed (Divya Dhristi)ie super- > > > natural sight through which they used to see exact > > > position of planets & nakshatra anywhere anytime. > > > It is true that Indians were very briliant in > > > mathematics in the past and they must have divided > > > the zodiac in 12 division and further into many divisions. > > > which is easy task. > > > AS we can today, they were also able to map Sun Moon > > > & Nakshatras in the sky and calculate their motion. > > > But it seems impossible to locate the planets > > > which do not emit light & then do calculation for > > > their exact path without the aid of telescope, > > > much earlier the birth of Christ. > > > > > > What do u think > > > Waiting for reply of other members also. > > > Regards > > > Dhananjay > > > > > > , " Marg " <margie9@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Dhananjay and those interested, > > > > > > > > First of all sorry for untimely mails my server has had > Mercury > > > retro.....................:-) > > > > > > > > I also thought you might enjoy this little method employed by > > many > > > ancient astrologers to locate planetary positions exactly. > > > > > > > > Chinese astrologers, and perhaps others we haven't yet found > > out > > > about, though I suspect the Egyptians too, use Ursa Major to > tell > > the > > > time. > > > > First of all locate the constellation at a specific date and > > time > > > and note which architectural feature near your home > the 'handle' > > is > > > pointing to. > > > > > > > > Ursa Major revolves around the sky once a day but gives a > total > > > rotation once a year, so by watching it daily you can note the > > > movement carefully yourself. > > > > > > > > The position moves just short of one degree every four > minutes, > > and > > > one degree is about twice the width of the full moon, so it > gives > > a > > > quarter of a revolution every six hours. The position will have > > > shifted one degree each day at the same time, or a quarter turn > > every > > > three months. > > > > > > > > Over one lifetime this doesn't alter significantly, but over > > many > > > millennia precession affects it radically which is why there is > a > > > need to keep watching which star is nearest the north pole, and > > > changing the constellation you use in order to tell the time. > > > > > > > > As I mentioned earlier it takes 4800 years for Thuban to > shift > > its > > > location and give way to Polaris at the North Pole. The total > > years > > > for this precession of the North to South constellational path > is > > > 25920 years, and it would affect which constellations are > visible > > > above or below the horizon, also our clock times would be out > of > > > synchrony with sun rising and setting times. For instance in > year > > > 2500 9 o clock would be the new twelve o clock! > > > > > > > > I also believe this is the method ancient astrologers used to > > give > > > predictions about the destiny of nations, and of the earth > itself. > > > > best wishes > > > > M > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Original Message ----- > > > > gupta089 > > > > > > > > Thursday, November 15, 2007 4:10 AM > > > > Re: Horoscope of Lord Rama/Vachaspati > > > > > > > > Dear Marg > > > > Can u explain how without the aid of telescope > > > > ancient people used to see and calculate exact > > > > position of planets > > > > > > > > Dhananjay > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 2007 Report Share Posted November 17, 2007 Dear Kishore Your point is important. There are so many ways of translating, so many meanings, and so many understandings, that to rely on just one interpretation can be totally misleading. I am sure there are more ways of understanding what Valmiki intended to convey. best wishes M - kishore patnaik Saturday, November 17, 2007 4:29 AM Re: Re: Horoscope of Lord Rama/Vachaspati Dear all, I am quoting here what was purport of the word ' vak' in the Valimiki's times. Apparently, it denotes Veda (the Divine word) whichfor which significator is Jupiter. Obviously we are all discussing with half knowledge with what we know of the meanings of vaak as on date. Hope this clears the air, " word vaak means: enunciator - as given above; This word also means Veda - anaadi nidhano hi eSaa vaak utshR^iSTaa Veda-s emerged from that Absolute, hence vaak is identifiable with that Absolute; and this is grammar - vaak yoga viddduSyati ca apashabde as such vaak is identifiable with grammar. And vaak vid vareNya is 'one who has complete information derived from Veda-s, or, one who elucidates and enunciates what he has learned from Veda-s to others...' regards, Kishore patnaik 98492 70729 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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