Words of Rishis, Paramparas and Knowledge

[Guest guest]

Namaste friends,

 

Happy Deepavali/Diwali to all of you!

 

> Can you show me the verse of Parasara that explains the

> basis of chaturdasi dosa? Is the story of Chandra

> kidnapping Tara and betraying Guru mentioned in BPHS?

> .... Is it enough to learn sanskrit to derive the real

> meaning of the Maharishi's?

 

Parasara may have left out the philosophical basis, but he did teach various

objective calculations of hora shastra. There are ambiguities in a few places,

but things are quite clear in several places.

 

We can be true to Parasara atleast in the matter of calculations he clearly

defined. We can theorize or experiment in areas where he left ambiguity. But I

do not see why we should deviate from an unambiguous verse on calculations and

come up with a big hypothesis instead.

 

* * *

 

Some people may think that even unambiguously stated things somehow have some

deep meaning that cannot be deciphered through good knowledge of Sanskrit

language and grammar and an understanding of the writing style. However, this

belief is inconsistent with Indian tradition. It is the tradition in India for

people to study Sanskrit well, understand stylistic nuances, hone their

interpretation skills, interpret classics and engage in scholarly debates.

 

Not the entire text of Parasara is a " black box " to one who has studied Sanskrit

well. In fact, if that were to be the case, Parasara would not have created the

text!!

 

* * *

 

Some people may be tempted to believe that Parasara's text is a black box that

should not be interpreted by any scholar today and we should stick to the

interpretation of someone in the past, i.e. from some parampara. But that is

against the spirit of knowledge that has been behind the wealth of knowledge

that exists in India.

 

In the old days in India, even giants with impeccable pedigree (e.g. Adi

Sankaracharya) never won debates by saying " this knowledge is from parampara and

so it is correct " . They actually quoted rishis and debated on the interpretation

of rishis. The words of rishis were taken to be ultimate and it was considered

that those words could be interpreted by scholars and debated.

 

* * *

 

Parampara is for INTERPRETING RISHIS and passing on the interpretation. It is

not for overriding rishis. From time to time, errors do develop in parampara and

they do need to be corrected by going back to the words of rishis.

 

Whenever I found a discrepancy between a teaching of our paramapara and an

unambiguous teaching of Parasara on an objective matter such as a calculation, I

experimented and found Parasara to be correct always.

 

Apart from the current example of chara karaka determination, let me take the

case of drigdasa (on which you can download an article at

VedicAstrologer.org/articles/drik_am.zip). Parasara unambiguously said that

sthira dasa years should be used in drigdasa. But Pt Sanjay Rath taught chara

dasa years. Parasara said that the order of reckoning aspects is zodiacal for

fixed signs and odd dual signs and anti-zodiacal for movable signs and even dual

signs. But Pt Sanjay Rath taught that the order is zodiacal for odd-footed signs

and anti-zodiacal for even-footed signs.

 

In both the cases, the words of Parasara are crystal clear and I see no scope

whatsoever for multiple interpretations. Moreover, when I tried Parasara's

version, it worked nicely and made things much simpler and far more consistent.

 

* * *

 

I have no doubt in my mind that the time-tested method used in India for

millennia is STILL applicable today.

 

Rishis obtain knowledge through direct experience and capture it in

written/spoken form. Scholars from time to time interpret the words of rishis

and debate. Their interpretations are passed down in paramparas. But the problem

is that corruptions may occur from time to time. Some corruptions may be small

and some may be big.

 

If a new scholar finds a previous interpretation passed down in a parampara to

be inconsistent with a rishi's words, he/she corrects it. If necessary, there

may be a scholarly debate. Of course, just the words of rishis are taken as

pramaana (basis), and not the teachings of parampara.

 

This process of correction using the words of rishis as basis ensures that any

corruptions that occur in knowledge are detected and weeded out sooner or later.

This process is vital to the preservation of the knowledge of rishis in various

paramparas.

 

Because human beings have some weaknesses, some obstacles to this process come

up at times. However, Nature will find a way to make it work, eventually.

 

BTW, the article in question on chara karakas is at

VedicAstrologer.org/articles/c_karaka.pdf.

 

Krishnaarpanamastu,

Narasimha

 

Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam

Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana

Spirituality:

Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

 

 

sohamsa , Michal Dziwulski <nearmichal wrote:

>

> Hare Rama Krsna ||

>

> Dear Narasimha,

>

> Can you show me the verse of Parasara that explains the basis of chaturdasi

dosa? Is the story of Chandra kidnapping Tara and betraying Guru mentioned in

BPHS? Perhaps it is, I must be honest with you I have not done justice to this

great work - yet. I know it is mentioned elsewhere. But point is, this and

many other vital Jyotish understanding is found in allied sorces of knowledge

which includes other scriptures and parampara.

>

> Is it enough to learn sanskrit to derive the real meaning of the Maharishi's?

Meaning cannot come from grammar alone. A literal translation is a face value

interpretation. A beggar may find a bag of money, but if what he sees is just

paper, and decides to start a fire with it to stay warm, imagine the loss.

>

> Sincerely,

> Michal

>

> ________________________________

> Narasimha P.V.R. Rao <pvr

> Gopal Goel <gkgoel1937

> Cc: vedic astrology ;

Indian_Astrology_Group_Daily_Digest ; sohamsa

<sohamsa >

> Monday, October 27, 2008 3:06:30 PM

> Re: Char Karka

>

>

> 

> Namaste Sir,

>

> > Seven

> > (7 )CHAR KARKA SCHEME IS FOR MUNDANE

> CHARTS,

> > 5. 8 CHAR KARKA SCHEME IS FOR LIVING BEING

> .

>

> If you or anyone can show me the verse of Parasara

> that says the above, we can discuss your views further.

>

> When mentioning the two schemes, Parasara clearly

> said that the 8-karaka scheme is used when two planets are in the same degree.

> He never talked about " living beings " vs " mundane charts " . Instead he talked

> about matching the degrees of planets to decide 7 vs 8 karaka

> schemes.

>

> A clear guideline of Parasara has been ignored and

> a big hypothesis is made instead. Such a theory with a weak foundation

> fails to convince me.

>

> Best

> regards,

> Narasimha

> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------

> Do

> a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam

> Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana

> Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom

> Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net

> Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org

> Sri

> Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org

> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------

>

> -

> Gopal Goel

> Narasimha Rao

> Cc: vedic astrology ; Indian_Astrology_ Group_Daily_

Digest@grou ps.com ; sohamsa

> Saturday, October 25, 2008 11:43 AM

> Char Karka

>

> Dear Friend,

> Why bring Pt. Sanjay Rath , place your views independently.

> I have again gone through the article of Rath ji and your article

> carefully.I got the impression , that you are try to advocate your

> views instead of trying to understand the real intent of BPH.

> I may like to bring following points to your kind attention:

> 1. Rath ji is your guru , never show disrespect to your guru.

> Such attitude will bring your downfall. Rishi Yajvalkya ,Jaimni

> sometimes taken different line of thinking , but with the permission

> and with due respect to his guru.I think you are in USA too long.

> that is why you do not like to stick these simple norms.

> 2. Parasara had refereed higher authorities in BPHS KIKE 'SEER

> GARG'

> 3. BPHS INTENDS THAT THERE ARE TWO DISTINCT

> SCHEMES OF CHAR KARKAS-7 AS WELL AS 8

> 4 In 7 char karka scheme Rahu is not considered .However , if two planets

> are same zodiac degree in their respective signs, then char Karka

replacement

> occurs and Rahu takes its place as sthir Karka of confusion and

deceit.Seven

> (7 )CHAR KARKA SCHEME IS FOR MUNDANE CHARTS, THAT IS WHY

> PUTRA kARKA IS ABSENT AND RAHU AS STHIR kARKA DOES NOT

> REPRESENT ANY LIVING PERSON BUT DECEIT ETC.

> 5. 8 CHAR KARKA SCHEME IS FOR LIVING BEING . BPHS

> CLEARLY STATES 8 kARKA IN SERIAL ORDER-AK,AMK,

> BK, MK, PITK,PUTK,GK AND DK.THERE IS ABSOLUTELY

> ON AMBIGUITY OR CONFUSION.

> 6. kindly TRY TO UNDERSTAND THE PURPORT AND REASON

> BEHIND REPLACEMENT OF CHAR KARKA WITH STHIR KARKA.

> THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT AND CRUCIAL TO UNDERSTAND THE SIGNIFICANCE ,AS TO WHY

CHAR KARKA ARE REPLACED BY STHIR

> KARKAS.IN FACT THIS CHAPTER OF BPHS DEALS IN ALL KINDS OF

> KARKAS ACCEPT NAISARGIKA KARKAS. THE SLOKAS IN THIS CHAPTER ARE LIKE SUTRA

AND LOT OF CO-RELATION IS REQUIRED TO DECIPHER

> THEM. CHAR KARKA INDICATE THE HELP AND SUSTENANCE PROVIDED

> BY OTHER LIVING BEING OR LACK OF IT DUE TO THE ACTIONS OF PAST BIRTHS.STHIR

KARKA INDICATE WHEN SUCH LIVING BEING WILL

> PUT TO GRIEF .

> 6. I urge , kindly read the article written by Rathji . It will show the

light.

> Regards,

> G.K.GOEL

> Ph: 09350311433

> Add: L-409, SARITA VIHAR

> NEW DELHI-110 076

> INDIA

[Guest guest]

Dear Narasimha,

 

You may have started with this!! /I guess discussion would be more productive/

 

We are all on the path of reaching better understanding, student and teacher

alike- are we not?

 

What would growth in knowledge mean at all, if we refuse to acknowledge

mistakes, due to some dubiously defined loyalty?

Student-teacher relationship is not fixed, one way relationship, but rather

interactive- who can deny the fact that students help teachers grow, as well,

dispelling the dark, in accordance with their abilities. /if student comes up

with different view, teacher will not discard it as a sin /as good fathers never

do!/,  but will gladly enjoy brightness of the student and engage fully to

understand student's arguments well.

 

Is it not a DUTY of any scholar?

 

Thanks for clarifying this completely.

It helps me personally, in getting better orientation, reducing my doubts and

despair over murky spots.

 

 Warmest wishes,

Anna

 

 

 

 

--- On Mon, 10/27/08, Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr wrote:

 

Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr

Words of Rishis, Paramparas and Knowledge

sohamsa , vedic astrology ,

 

Monday, October 27, 2008, 4:28 PM

 

 

 

 

 

 

Namaste friends,

 

Happy Deepavali/Diwali to all of you!

 

> Can you show me the verse of Parasara that explains the

> basis of chaturdasi dosa? Is the story of Chandra

> kidnapping Tara and betraying Guru mentioned in BPHS?

> .... Is it enough to learn sanskrit to derive the real

> meaning of the Maharishi's?

 

Parasara may have left out the philosophical basis, but he did teach various

objective calculations of hora shastra. There are ambiguities in a few places,

but things are quite clear in several places.

 

We can be true to Parasara atleast in the matter of calculations he clearly

defined. We can theorize or experiment in areas where he left ambiguity. But I

do not see why we should deviate from an unambiguous verse on calculations and

come up with a big hypothesis instead.

 

* * *

 

Some people may think that even unambiguously stated things somehow have some

deep meaning that cannot be deciphered through good knowledge of Sanskrit

language and grammar and an understanding of the writing style. However, this

belief is inconsistent with Indian tradition. It is the tradition in India for

people to study Sanskrit well, understand stylistic nuances, hone their

interpretation skills, interpret classics and engage in scholarly debates.

 

Not the entire text of Parasara is a " black box " to one who has studied Sanskrit

well. In fact, if that were to be the case, Parasara would not have created the

text!!

 

* * *

 

Some people may be tempted to believe that Parasara's text is a black box that

should not be interpreted by any scholar today and we should stick to the

interpretation of someone in the past, i.e. from some parampara. But that is

against the spirit of knowledge that has been behind the wealth of knowledge

that exists in India.

 

In the old days in India, even giants with impeccable pedigree (e.g. Adi

Sankaracharya) never won debates by saying " this knowledge is from parampara and

so it is correct " . They actually quoted rishis and debated on the interpretation

of rishis. The words of rishis were taken to be ultimate and it was considered

that those words could be interpreted by scholars and debated.

 

* * *

 

Parampara is for INTERPRETING RISHIS and passing on the interpretation. It is

not for overriding rishis. From time to time, errors do develop in parampara and

they do need to be corrected by going back to the words of rishis.

 

Whenever I found a discrepancy between a teaching of our paramapara and an

unambiguous teaching of Parasara on an objective matter such as a calculation, I

experimented and found Parasara to be correct always.

 

Apart from the current example of chara karaka determination, let me take the

case of drigdasa (on which you can download an article at VedicAstrologer.

org/articles/ drik_am.zip) . Parasara unambiguously said that sthira dasa years

should be used in drigdasa. But Pt Sanjay Rath taught chara dasa years. Parasara

said that the order of reckoning aspects is zodiacal for fixed signs and odd

dual signs and anti-zodiacal for movable signs and even dual signs. But Pt

Sanjay Rath taught that the order is zodiacal for odd-footed signs and

anti-zodiacal for even-footed signs.

 

In both the cases, the words of Parasara are crystal clear and I see no scope

whatsoever for multiple interpretations. Moreover, when I tried Parasara's

version, it worked nicely and made things much simpler and far more consistent.

 

* * *

 

I have no doubt in my mind that the time-tested method used in India for

millennia is STILL applicable today.

 

Rishis obtain knowledge through direct experience and capture it in

written/spoken form. Scholars from time to time interpret the words of rishis

and debate. Their interpretations are passed down in paramparas. But the problem

is that corruptions may occur from time to time. Some corruptions may be small

and some may be big.

 

If a new scholar finds a previous interpretation passed down in a parampara to

be inconsistent with a rishi's words, he/she corrects it. If necessary, there

may be a scholarly debate. Of course, just the words of rishis are taken as

pramaana (basis), and not the teachings of parampara.

 

This process of correction using the words of rishis as basis ensures that any

corruptions that occur in knowledge are detected and weeded out sooner or later.

This process is vital to the preservation of the knowledge of rishis in various

paramparas.

 

Because human beings have some weaknesses, some obstacles to this process come

up at times. However, Nature will find a way to make it work, eventually.

 

BTW, the article in question on chara karakas is at VedicAstrologer.

org/articles/ c_karaka. pdf.

 

Krishnaarpanamastu,

Narasimha

------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam

Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana

Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom

Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net

Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org

Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org

------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

 

sohamsa@ .com, Michal Dziwulski <nearmichal@ ...> wrote:

>

> Hare Rama Krsna ||

>

> Dear Narasimha,

>

> Can you show me the verse of Parasara that explains the basis of chaturdasi

dosa? Is the story of Chandra kidnapping Tara and betraying Guru mentioned in

BPHS? Perhaps it is, I must be honest with you I have not done justice to this

great work - yet. I know it is mentioned elsewhere. But point is, this and many

other vital Jyotish understanding is found in allied sorces of knowledge which

includes other scriptures and parampara.

>

> Is it enough to learn sanskrit to derive the real meaning of the Maharishi's?

Meaning cannot come from grammar alone. A literal translation is a face value

interpretation. A beggar may find a bag of money, but if what he sees is just

paper, and decides to start a fire with it to stay warm, imagine the loss.

>

> Sincerely,

> Michal

>

> ____________ _________ _________ __

> Narasimha P.V.R. Rao <pvr

> Gopal Goel <gkgoel1937@ ...>

> Cc: vedic astrology; Indian_Astrology_ Group_Daily_

Digest@grou ps.com; sohamsa <sohamsa@ .com>

> Monday, October 27, 2008 3:06:30 PM

> Re: Char Karka

>

>

> 

> Namaste Sir,

>

> > Seven

> > (7 )CHAR KARKA SCHEME IS FOR MUNDANE

> CHARTS,

> > 5. 8 CHAR KARKA SCHEME IS FOR LIVING BEING

> .

>

> If you or anyone can show me the verse of Parasara

> that says the above, we can discuss your views further.

>

> When mentioning the two schemes, Parasara clearly

> said that the 8-karaka scheme is used when two planets are in the same degree.

> He never talked about " living beings " vs " mundane charts " . Instead he talked

> about matching the degrees of planets to decide 7 vs 8 karaka

> schemes.

>

> A clear guideline of Parasara has been ignored and

> a big hypothesis is made instead. Such a theory with a weak foundation

> fails to convince me.

>

> Best

> regards,

> Narasimha

> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------

> Do

> a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam

> Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana

> Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom

> Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net

> Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org

> Sri

> Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org

> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------

>

> -

> Gopal Goel

> Narasimha Rao

> Cc: vedic astrology ; Indian_Astrology_ Group_Daily_

Digest@grou ps.com ; sohamsa

> Saturday, October 25, 2008 11:43 AM

> Char Karka

>

> Dear Friend,

> Why bring Pt. Sanjay Rath , place your views independently.

> I have again gone through the article of Rath ji and your article

> carefully.I got the impression , that you are try to advocate your

> views instead of trying to understand the real intent of BPH.

> I may like to bring following points to your kind attention:

> 1. Rath ji is your guru , never show disrespect to your guru.

> Such attitude will bring your downfall. Rishi Yajvalkya ,Jaimni

> sometimes taken different line of thinking , but with the permission

> and with due respect to his guru.I think you are in USA too long.

> that is why you do not like to stick these simple norms.

> 2. Parasara had refereed higher authorities in BPHS KIKE 'SEER

> GARG'

> 3. BPHS INTENDS THAT THERE ARE TWO DISTINCT

> SCHEMES OF CHAR KARKAS-7 AS WELL AS 8

> 4 In 7 char karka scheme Rahu is not considered .However , if two planets

> are same zodiac degree in their respective signs, then char Karka replacement

> occurs and Rahu takes its place as sthir Karka of confusion and deceit.Seven

> (7 )CHAR KARKA SCHEME IS FOR MUNDANE CHARTS, THAT IS WHY

> PUTRA kARKA IS ABSENT AND RAHU AS STHIR kARKA DOES NOT

> REPRESENT ANY LIVING PERSON BUT DECEIT ETC.

> 5. 8 CHAR KARKA SCHEME IS FOR LIVING BEING . BPHS

> CLEARLY STATES 8 kARKA IN SERIAL ORDER-AK,AMK,

> BK, MK, PITK,PUTK,GK AND DK.THERE IS ABSOLUTELY

> ON AMBIGUITY OR CONFUSION.

> 6. kindly TRY TO UNDERSTAND THE PURPORT AND REASON

> BEHIND REPLACEMENT OF CHAR KARKA WITH STHIR KARKA.

> THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT AND CRUCIAL TO UNDERSTAND THE SIGNIFICANCE ,AS TO WHY

CHAR KARKA ARE REPLACED BY STHIR

> KARKAS.IN FACT THIS CHAPTER OF BPHS DEALS IN ALL KINDS OF

> KARKAS ACCEPT NAISARGIKA KARKAS. THE SLOKAS IN THIS CHAPTER ARE LIKE SUTRA AND

LOT OF CO-RELATION IS REQUIRED TO DECIPHER

> THEM. CHAR KARKA INDICATE THE HELP AND SUSTENANCE PROVIDED

> BY OTHER LIVING BEING OR LACK OF IT DUE TO THE ACTIONS OF PAST BIRTHS.STHIR

KARKA INDICATE WHEN SUCH LIVING BEING WILL

> PUT TO GRIEF .

> 6. I urge , kindly read the article written by Rathji . It will show the

light.

> Regards,

> G.K.GOEL

> Ph: 09350311433

> Add: L-409, SARITA VIHAR

> NEW DELHI-110 076

> INDIA

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hare Rama Krsna ||Dear Narasimha,Fortunately I am not one of these people tempted to believe Parasara's text is a black box etc. I am open to new ideas, but your article is not very convincing, it seems to tell us the earth is flat, after we had learnt that it is round. Like I said before, there is little explanation in your article. Furthermore, you have declined to answer questions. When someone offers a theory publicly, and then avoids answering valid questions that are raised we can only assume that he/she does not have the answers. Still, I will ask again.If Parasara's verses on carakarakas are 'unambiguous' as you say they are, then can you please explain why it is Putra karaka that is merged with Matri karaka and not some other karaka?

Putra karaka indicates progeny (putra means child), which is something specific to the living world, as opposed to the non-living world (buildings cannot have a child, follower etc.). This explanation seems very plausible, simple, and elegant - it is not philosophising but a matter of fact - I'm sure Parasara was aware of this and expected his audience to be also. By omitting Putra karaka there is a clear (unambiguous) distinction being made between the living and non-living as recognised by science and the Bhagavad Gita. It is not at all a leap of faith - pop stars have followers, buildings do not.Drig Dasa. From the following statement it seems that you have made up your own rule not based on Parasara's drigdasa verse, added it to your translation of the rest, and called it 'Parasara's drig dasa'. Is this the case or am I mistaken? If it is indeed your own rule,

furnished from your meditation then it should be called Narasimha's drigdasa so that new students do not get the two (Parasara and Narasimha) confused. Because I fully agree with you that it is the Rishi's words that we must follow: "About a year later it came in a flash after a meditation session. When Narayana dasa starts from the 7th house, we consider the dasa sign to be a progression of the 7th house and hence take the 7th house from dasa sign as the progressed lagna. I thought why not apply the same idea?!! Drigdasa starts from the 9th house. So I thought of taking drigdasa sign as the progression of the 9th house. If I take the 5th hose

from dasa sign, that should be the progressed lagna".Happy Diwali to you too,MichalNarasimha PVR Rao <pvrsohamsa ; vedic astrology ; Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 9:28:23 AM Words of Rishis, Paramparas and Knowledge

 

Namaste friends,

 

Happy Deepavali/Diwali to all of you!

 

> Can you show me the verse of Parasara that explains the

> basis of chaturdasi dosa? Is the story of Chandra

> kidnapping Tara and betraying Guru mentioned in BPHS?

> .... Is it enough to learn sanskrit to derive the real

> meaning of the Maharishi's?

 

Parasara may have left out the philosophical basis, but he did teach various objective calculations of hora shastra. There are ambiguities in a few places, but things are quite clear in several places.

 

We can be true to Parasara atleast in the matter of calculations he clearly defined. We can theorize or experiment in areas where he left ambiguity. But I do not see why we should deviate from an unambiguous verse on calculations and come up with a big hypothesis instead.

 

* * *

 

Some people may think that even unambiguously stated things somehow have some deep meaning that cannot be deciphered through good knowledge of Sanskrit language and grammar and an understanding of the writing style. However, this belief is inconsistent with Indian tradition. It is the tradition in India for people to study Sanskrit well, understand stylistic nuances, hone their interpretation skills, interpret classics and engage in scholarly debates.

 

Not the entire text of Parasara is a "black box" to one who has studied Sanskrit well. In fact, if that were to be the case, Parasara would not have created the text!!

 

* * *

 

Some people may be tempted to believe that Parasara's text is a black box that should not be interpreted by any scholar today and we should stick to the interpretation of someone in the past, i.e. from some parampara. But that is against the spirit of knowledge that has been behind the wealth of knowledge that exists in India.

 

In the old days in India, even giants with impeccable pedigree (e.g. Adi Sankaracharya) never won debates by saying "this knowledge is from parampara and so it is correct". They actually quoted rishis and debated on the interpretation of rishis. The words of rishis were taken to be ultimate and it was considered that those words could be interpreted by scholars and debated.

 

* * *

 

Parampara is for INTERPRETING RISHIS and passing on the interpretation. It is not for overriding rishis. From time to time, errors do develop in parampara and they do need to be corrected by going back to the words of rishis.

 

Whenever I found a discrepancy between a teaching of our paramapara and an unambiguous teaching of Parasara on an objective matter such as a calculation, I experimented and found Parasara to be correct always.

 

Apart from the current example of chara karaka determination, let me take the case of drigdasa (on which you can download an article at VedicAstrologer. org/articles/ drik_am.zip) . Parasara unambiguously said that sthira dasa years should be used in drigdasa. But Pt Sanjay Rath taught chara dasa years. Parasara said that the order of reckoning aspects is zodiacal for fixed signs and odd dual signs and anti-zodiacal for movable signs and even dual signs. But Pt Sanjay Rath taught that the order is zodiacal for odd-footed signs and anti-zodiacal for even-footed signs.

 

In both the cases, the words of Parasara are crystal clear and I see no scope whatsoever for multiple interpretations. Moreover, when I tried Parasara's version, it worked nicely and made things much simpler and far more consistent.

 

* * *

 

I have no doubt in my mind that the time-tested method used in India for millennia is STILL applicable today.

 

Rishis obtain knowledge through direct experience and capture it in written/spoken form. Scholars from time to time interpret the words of rishis and debate. Their interpretations are passed down in paramparas. But the problem is that corruptions may occur from time to time. Some corruptions may be small and some may be big.

 

If a new scholar finds a previous interpretation passed down in a parampara to be inconsistent with a rishi's words, he/she corrects it. If necessary, there may be a scholarly debate. Of course, just the words of rishis are taken as pramaana (basis), and not the teachings of parampara.

 

This process of correction using the words of rishis as basis ensures that any corruptions that occur in knowledge are detected and weeded out sooner or later. This process is vital to the preservation of the knowledge of rishis in various paramparas.

 

Because human beings have some weaknesses, some obstacles to this process come up at times. However, Nature will find a way to make it work, eventually.

 

BTW, the article in question on chara karakas is at VedicAstrologer. org/articles/ c_karaka. pdf.

 

Krishnaarpanamastu,

Narasimha

------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam

Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana

Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom

Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net

Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org

Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org

------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

 

sohamsa@ .com, Michal Dziwulski <nearmichal@ ...> wrote:

>

> Hare Rama Krsna ||

>

> Dear Narasimha,

>

> Can you show me the verse of Parasara that explains the basis of chaturdasi dosa? Is the story of Chandra kidnapping Tara and betraying Guru mentioned in BPHS? Perhaps it is, I must be honest with you I have not done justice to this great work - yet. I know it is mentioned elsewhere. But point is, this and many other vital Jyotish understanding is found in allied sorces of knowledge which includes other scriptures and parampara.

>

> Is it enough to learn sanskrit to derive the real meaning of the Maharishi's? Meaning cannot come from grammar alone. A literal translation is a face value interpretation. A beggar may find a bag of money, but if what he sees is just paper, and decides to start a fire with it to stay warm, imagine the loss.

>

> Sincerely,

> Michal

>

> ____________ _________ _________ __

> Narasimha P.V.R. Rao <pvr

> Gopal Goel <gkgoel1937@ ...>

> Cc: vedic astrology; Indian_Astrology_ Group_Daily_ Digest@grou ps.com; sohamsa <sohamsa@ .com>

> Monday, October 27, 2008 3:06:30 PM

> Re: Char Karka

>

>

> 

> Namaste Sir,

>

> > Seven

> > (7 )CHAR KARKA SCHEME IS FOR MUNDANE

> CHARTS,

> > 5. 8 CHAR KARKA SCHEME IS FOR LIVING BEING

> .

>

> If you or anyone can show me the verse of Parasara

> that says the above, we can discuss your views further.

>

> When mentioning the two schemes, Parasara clearly

> said that the 8-karaka scheme is used when two planets are in the same degree.

> He never talked about "living beings" vs "mundane charts". Instead he talked

> about matching the degrees of planets to decide 7 vs 8 karaka

> schemes.

>

> A clear guideline of Parasara has been ignored and

> a big hypothesis is made instead. Such a theory with a weak foundation

> fails to convince me.

>

> Best

> regards,

> Narasimha

> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------

> Do

> a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam

> Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana

> Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom

> Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net

> Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org

> Sri

> Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org

> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------

>

> -

> Gopal Goel

> Narasimha Rao

> Cc: vedic astrology ; Indian_Astrology_ Group_Daily_ Digest@grou ps.com ; sohamsa

> Saturday, October 25, 2008 11:43 AM

> Char Karka

>

> Dear Friend,

> Why bring Pt. Sanjay Rath , place your views independently.

> I have again gone through the article of Rath ji and your article

> carefully.I got the impression , that you are try to advocate your

> views instead of trying to understand the real intent of BPH.

> I may like to bring following points to your kind attention:

> 1. Rath ji is your guru , never show disrespect to your guru.

> Such attitude will bring your downfall. Rishi Yajvalkya ,Jaimni

> sometimes taken different line of thinking , but with the permission

> and with due respect to his guru.I think you are in USA too long.

> that is why you do not like to stick these simple norms.

> 2. Parasara had refereed higher authorities in BPHS KIKE 'SEER

> GARG'

> 3. BPHS INTENDS THAT THERE ARE TWO DISTINCT

> SCHEMES OF CHAR KARKAS-7 AS WELL AS 8

> 4 In 7 char karka scheme Rahu is not considered .However , if two planets

> are same zodiac degree in their respective signs, then char Karka replacement

> occurs and Rahu takes its place as sthir Karka of confusion and deceit.Seven

> (7 )CHAR KARKA SCHEME IS FOR MUNDANE CHARTS, THAT IS WHY

> PUTRA kARKA IS ABSENT AND RAHU AS STHIR kARKA DOES NOT

> REPRESENT ANY LIVING PERSON BUT DECEIT ETC.

> 5. 8 CHAR KARKA SCHEME IS FOR LIVING BEING . BPHS

> CLEARLY STATES 8 kARKA IN SERIAL ORDER-AK,AMK,

> BK, MK, PITK,PUTK,GK AND DK.THERE IS ABSOLUTELY

> ON AMBIGUITY OR CONFUSION.

> 6. kindly TRY TO UNDERSTAND THE PURPORT AND REASON

> BEHIND REPLACEMENT OF CHAR KARKA WITH STHIR KARKA.

> THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT AND CRUCIAL TO UNDERSTAND THE SIGNIFICANCE ,AS TO WHY CHAR KARKA ARE REPLACED BY STHIR

> KARKAS.IN FACT THIS CHAPTER OF BPHS DEALS IN ALL KINDS OF

> KARKAS ACCEPT NAISARGIKA KARKAS. THE SLOKAS IN THIS CHAPTER ARE LIKE SUTRA AND LOT OF CO-RELATION IS REQUIRED TO DECIPHER

> THEM. CHAR KARKA INDICATE THE HELP AND SUSTENANCE PROVIDED

> BY OTHER LIVING BEING OR LACK OF IT DUE TO THE ACTIONS OF PAST BIRTHS.STHIR KARKA INDICATE WHEN SUCH LIVING BEING WILL

> PUT TO GRIEF .

> 6. I urge , kindly read the article written by Rathji . It will show the light.

> Regards,

> G.K.GOEL

> Ph: 09350311433

> Add: L-409, SARITA VIHAR

> NEW DELHI-110 076

> INDIA

[Guest guest]

Hare Rama Krishna,

 

Dear Narasimha,

I have downloaded from your website a book (Lessons on Vedic

Astrology), which I presume was compiled by your students. Lots of

valuable informations! Excellent.

However I have found something unusual:

 

In Lesson #6 (Lessons on Vedic Astrology)you mention the Tara Mantra

as " Om Tare dustare turye swaha " . Do you have a scriptural reference

to this mantra? Do you have any tantra which discloses this form of

the mantra? or is it " parampara " ?Or the result of personal revelation?

Research?

I did ask this very same question alreday sometimes back, but I

guess you may have overlooked it.(I also have two retrograde

planets...,just like the previous writer). In any case I would really

appreciate if you would answer my question.

 

With deep respect to all,

 

A.J.

 

sohamsa , Michal Dziwulski <nearmichal

wrote:

>

> Hare Rama Krsna ||

>

> Dear Narasimha,

>

> I'm sorry for the use of the word 'omit'. However it is quite sad

that you will pick out a word from my mail and use that as a basis

for not answering the main question. I have some retrograde planets

though, so I don't mind repeating the question for the 5th time:

>

> " Can you please explain why it is Putra karaka that is merged with

Matri karaka and not some other karaka? "

>

> And thank you for clarifying your version of drigdasa and its

interpretation - very creative!

>

> Eagerly awaiting your reply,

> Michal

>

>

>

> ________________________________

> Narasimha P.V.R. Rao <pvr

> sohamsa

> Tuesday, October 28, 2008 5:27:47 PM

> Re: Words of Rishis, Paramparas and Knowledge

>

>

> Namaste Michal,

>

> Regarding your comment on drigdasa: Parasara taught

> drigdasa calculations and not judgment. We faithfully stick to a

rishi's

> words in areas that a rishi has spoken about and use our judgment,

intuition,

> logic and experiments to *fill in* the rest of the details that he

*left open*.

> However, please note that we do NOT use our intuition, logic,

judgment and

> experiments to *override* what a rishi has clearly spoken about.

>

> In the case of drigdasa calculation, I stuck to

> Parasara 100%. However, just teaching calculations is useless to

people of

> today. In order to make the teaching useful to people, I had to

also solve the

> puzzle of how to use it. That is where my contribution comes in.

The simple idea of taking the 5th house from dasa sign as

> lagna is my contribution. However, the

> calculations themselves are strictly based on Parasara. The rule

furnished from

> my meditation supplements Parasara's teachings in an area he did

not

> address.

>

> Regarding 7 karakas: Parasara did NOT tell to

> *omit* PK. He clearly told to *combine* MK and PK into one

portfolio. Period. If

> you want to change Parasara's words because they do not fit with

your

> philosophization, bottomline is you are deviating from the words of

rishi. That

> *would* be a leap of faith. Words of rishis are the pramaana and

not your fancy

> philosophization.

>

> In fact, I do not understand this stress on

> philosophization. Too much philosophization of half-baked knowledge

kills

> knowledge. I would rather learn what rishis have

> taught clearly, without worrying about philosophizing it.

>

> Best

> regards,

> Narasimha

> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -----

----

> Do

> a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam

> Do

> Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana

> Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom

> Free

> Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net

> Free

> Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org

> Sri

> Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org

> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -----

----

>

> sohamsa@ .com, Michal

> Dziwulski <nearmichal@ ..> wrote:

> >

> > Hare Rama Krsna

> ||

> >

> > Dear Narasimha,

> >

> > Fortunately I am not one of

> these people tempted to believe Parasara's text is a black box

etc. I am

> open to new ideas, but your article is not very convincing, it

seems to tell us

> the earth is flat, after we had learnt that it is round. Like I

said

> before, there is little explanation in your article. Furthermore,

you have

> declined to answer questions. When someone offers a theory

publicly, and

> then avoids answering valid questions that are raised we can only

assume that

> he/she does not have the answers. Still, I will ask again.

> >

> > If Parasara's verses on carakarakas are 'unambiguous' as you say

they

> are, then can you please explain why it is Putra karaka that is

merged with

> Matri karaka and not some other karaka? Putra karaka indicates

progeny

> (putra means child), which is something specific to the living

world, as opposed

> to the non-living world (buildings cannot have a child, follower

etc.).

> This explanation seems very plausible, simple, and elegant - it is

not

> philosophising but a matter of fact - I'm sure Parasara was aware

of this and

> expected his audience to be also. By omitting Putra karaka there

is a

> clear (unambiguous) distinction being made between the living and

non-living as

> recognised by science and the Bhagavad Gita. It is not at all a

leap of

> faith - pop stars have followers, buildings do not.

> >

> > Drig

> Dasa. From the following statement it seems that you have made up

your own

> rule not based on Parasara's drigdasa verse, added it to your

translation of the

> rest, and called it 'Parasara's drig dasa'. Is this the case or am

I

> mistaken? If it is indeed your own rule, furnished from your

meditation

> then it should be called Narasimha's drigdasa so that new students

do not get

> the two (Parasara and Narasimha) confused. Because I fully agree

with you

> that it is the Rishi's words that we must

> follow:

> >

> >

> " About a year later it came in a flash after a meditation session.

When

> Narayana dasa starts from the 7th house, we consider the dasa sign

to be a

> progression of the 7th house and hence take the 7th house from dasa

sign as the

> progressed lagna. I thought why not apply the same idea?!!

Drigdasa

> starts from the 9th house. So I thought of taking drigdasa sign as

the

> progression of the 9th house. If I take the 5th hose from dasa

sign, that

> should be the progressed lagna " .

> >

> > Happy Diwali to you

> too,

> > Michal

> >

> > ____________ _________ _________ __

> >

> Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@>

> > sohamsa@ .com; vedic astrology;

 

> >

> Tuesday, October 28, 2008 9:28:23 AM

> > Words of

> Rishis, Paramparas and Knowledge

> >

> >

> > Namaste

> friends,

> >

> > Happy Deepavali/Diwali to all of you!

> >

> >

> > Can you show me the verse of Parasara that explains the

> > > basis

> of chaturdasi dosa? Is the story of Chandra

> > > kidnapping Tara

> and betraying Guru mentioned in BPHS?

> > > .... Is it enough to learn

> sanskrit to derive the real

> > > meaning of the Maharishi's?

> >

> > Parasara may have left out the philosophical basis, but he did

teach

> various objective calculations of hora shastra. There are

ambiguities in a few

> places, but things are quite clear in several places.

> >

> > We can be

> true to Parasara atleast in the matter of calculations he clearly

defined. We

> can theorize or experiment in areas where he left ambiguity. But I

do not see

> why we should deviate from an unambiguous verse on calculations and

come up with

> a big hypothesis instead.

> >

> >

> *

> * *

> >

> > Some people may

> think that even unambiguously stated things somehow have some deep

meaning that

> cannot be deciphered through good knowledge of Sanskrit language

and grammar and

> an understanding of the writing style. However, this belief is

inconsistent with

> Indian tradition. It is the tradition in India for people to study

Sanskrit

> well, understand stylistic nuances, hone their interpretation

skills, interpret

> classics and engage in scholarly debates.

> >

> > Not the entire text

> of Parasara is a " black box " to one who has studied Sanskrit well.

In fact, if

> that were to be the case, Parasara would not have created the text!!

> >

> > *

> * *

> >

> > Some people may

> be tempted to believe that Parasara's text is a black box that

should not be

> interpreted by any scholar today and we should stick to the

interpretation of

> someone in the past, i.e. from some parampara. But that is against

the spirit of

> knowledge that has been behind the wealth of knowledge that exists

in

> India.

> >

> > In the old days in India, even giants with impeccable

> pedigree (e.g. Adi Sankaracharya) never won debates by saying " this

knowledge is

> from parampara and so it is correct " . They actually quoted rishis

and debated on

> the interpretation of rishis. The words of rishis were taken to be

ultimate and

> it was considered that those words could be interpreted by scholars

and

> debated.

> >

> > *

> * *

> >

> > Parampara is for

> INTERPRETING RISHIS and passing on the interpretation. It is not

for overriding

> rishis. From time to time, errors do develop in parampara and they

do need to be

> corrected by going back to the words of rishis.

> >

> > Whenever I

> found a discrepancy between a teaching of our paramapara and an

unambiguous

> teaching of Parasara on an objective matter such as a calculation,

I

> experimented and found Parasara to be correct always.

> >

> > Apart

> from the current example of chara karaka determination, let me take

the case of

> drigdasa (on which you can download an article at VedicAstrologer.

org/articles/

> drik_am.zip) . Parasara unambiguously said that sthira dasa years

should be used

> in drigdasa. But Pt Sanjay Rath taught chara dasa years. Parasara

said that the

> order of reckoning aspects is zodiacal for fixed signs and odd dual

signs and

> anti-zodiacal for movable signs and even dual signs. But Pt Sanjay

Rath taught

> that the order is zodiacal for odd-footed signs and anti-zodiacal

for

> even-footed signs.

> >

> > In both the cases, the words of Parasara are

> crystal clear and I see no scope whatsoever for multiple

interpretations.

> Moreover, when I tried Parasara's version, it worked nicely and

made things much

> simpler and far more consistent.

> >

> >

> *

> * *

> >

> > I have no doubt

> in my mind that the time-tested method used in India for millennia

is STILL

> applicable today.

> >

> > Rishis obtain knowledge through direct

> experience and capture it in written/spoken form. Scholars from

time to time

> interpret the words of rishis and debate. Their interpretations are

passed down

> in paramparas. But the problem is that corruptions may occur from

time to time.

> Some corruptions may be small and some may be big.

> >

> > If a new

> scholar finds a previous interpretation passed down in a parampara

to be

> inconsistent with a rishi's words, he/she corrects it. If

necessary, there may

> be a scholarly debate. Of course, just the words of rishis are

taken as pramaana

> (basis), and not the teachings of parampara.

> >

> > This process of

> correction using the words of rishis as basis ensures that any

corruptions that

> occur in knowledge are detected and weeded out sooner or later.

This process is

> vital to the preservation of the knowledge of rishis in various

> paramparas.

> >

> > Because human beings have some weaknesses, some

> obstacles to this process come up at times. However, Nature will

find a way to

> make it work, eventually.

> >

> > BTW, the article in question on chara

> karakas is at VedicAstrologer. org/articles/ c_karaka. pdf.

> >

> >

> Krishnaarpanamastu,

> > Narasimha

> > ------------ --------- ---------

> --------- --------- --------- -

> > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam

> > Do

> Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana

> > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom

> >

> Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.

> home.comcast. net

> > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org

> > Sri

> Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org

> > ------------

> --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

> >

> > sohamsa@ .com, Michal Dziwulski

> <nearmichal@ ...> wrote:

> > >

> > > Hare Rama Krsna

> ||

> > >

> > > Dear Narasimha,

> > >

> > > Can you

> show me the verse of Parasara that explains the basis of chaturdasi

dosa?

> Is the story of Chandra kidnapping Tara and betraying Guru

mentioned in

> BPHS? Perhaps it is, I must be honest with you I have not done

justice to

> this great work - yet. I know it is mentioned elsewhere. But

point

> is, this and many other vital Jyotish understanding is found in

allied sorces of

> knowledge which includes other scriptures and parampara.

> > >

> >

> > Is it enough to learn sanskrit to derive the real meaning of the

> Maharishi's? Meaning cannot come from grammar alone. A literal

> translation is a face value interpretation. A beggar may find a

bag of

> money, but if what he sees is just paper, and decides to start a

fire with it to

> stay warm, imagine the loss.

> > >

> > > Sincerely,

> > >

> Michal

> > >

> > > ____________ _________ _________ __

> >

> > Narasimha P.V.R. Rao <pvr@>

> > > Gopal Goel

> <gkgoel1937@ ...>

> > > Cc: vedic astrology;

> Indian_Astrology_ Group_Daily_ Digest@grou ps.com; sohamsa

<sohamsa@ .com>

> > >

> Monday, October 27, 2008 3:06:30 PM

> > > Re:

> Char Karka

> > >

> > >

> > > 

> > > Namaste

> Sir,

> > >

> > > > Seven

> > > > (7 )CHAR

> KARKA SCHEME IS FOR MUNDANE

> > > CHARTS,

> > > > 5. 8 CHAR

> KARKA SCHEME IS FOR LIVING BEING

> > > .

> > >

> > > If

> you or anyone can show me the verse of Parasara

> > > that says the

> above, we can discuss your views further.

> > >

> > > When

> mentioning the two schemes, Parasara clearly

> > > said that the

> 8-karaka scheme is used when two planets are in the same degree.

> > >

> He never talked about " living beings " vs " mundane charts " . Instead

he talked

> > > about matching the degrees of planets to decide 7 vs 8 karaka

> > > schemes.

> > >

> > > A clear guideline of Parasara

> has been ignored and

> > > a big hypothesis is made instead. Such a

> theory with a weak foundation

> > > fails to convince me.

> > >

> > > Best

> > > regards,

> > > Narasimha

> > >

> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -----

----

> >

> > Do

> > > a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam

> >

> > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/

tarpana

> >

> > Spirituality: http://groups. /

> group/vedic- wisdom

> > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net

> > >

> Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org

> > > Sri

> > > Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org

> > >

> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -----

----

> > >

> > > -

> > >

> Gopal Goel

> > > Narasimha Rao

> > > Cc:

> vedic astrology ; Indian_Astrology_ Group_Daily_

Digest@grou ps.com ; sohamsa

> >

> > Saturday, October 25, 2008 11:43 AM

> > > Char

> Karka

> > >

> > > Dear Friend,

> > > Why bring Pt. Sanjay

> Rath , place your views independently.

> > > I have again gone

> through the article of Rath ji and your article

> > > carefully.I

> got the impression , that you are try to advocate your

> > > views

> instead of trying to understand the real intent of BPH.

> > > I may like

> to bring following points to your kind attention:

> > > 1. Rath ji is

> your guru , never show disrespect to your guru.

> > >

> Such attitude will bring your downfall. Rishi Yajvalkya ,Jaimni

> >

> > sometimes taken different line of thinking , but with the

> permission

> > > and with due respect to his guru.I think you

> are in USA too long.

> > > that is why you do not like to

> stick these simple norms.

> > > 2. Parasara had refereed higher

> authorities in BPHS KIKE 'SEER

> > > GARG'

> > > 3. BPHS INTENDS

> THAT THERE ARE TWO DISTINCT

> > > SCHEMES OF CHAR

> KARKAS-7 AS WELL AS 8

> > > 4 In 7 char karka scheme Rahu is not

> considered .However , if two planets

> > > are same

> zodiac degree in their respective signs, then char Karka

> replacement

> > > occurs and Rahu takes its place as sthir

> Karka of confusion and deceit.Seven

> > > (7 )CHAR

> KARKA SCHEME IS FOR MUNDANE CHARTS, THAT IS WHY

> >

> > PUTRA kARKA IS ABSENT AND RAHU AS STHIR

> kARKA DOES NOT

> > > REPRESENT ANY LIVING

> PERSON BUT DECEIT ETC.

> > > 5. 8 CHAR KARKA SCHEME IS FOR LIVING BEING .

> BPHS

> > > CLEARLY STATES 8 kARKA IN SERIAL

> ORDER-AK,AMK,

> > > BK, MK, PITK,PUTK,GK AND DK.THERE IS

> ABSOLUTELY

> > > ON AMBIGUITY OR CONFUSION.

> > > 6. kindly

> TRY TO UNDERSTAND THE PURPORT AND REASON

> > > BEHIND

> REPLACEMENT OF CHAR KARKA WITH STHIR KARKA.

> > > THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT

> AND CRUCIAL TO UNDERSTAND THE SIGNIFICANCE ,AS TO WHY CHAR KARKA

ARE

> REPLACED BY STHIR

> > > KARKAS.IN FACT THIS CHAPTER OF BPHS DEALS IN ALL

> KINDS OF

> > > KARKAS ACCEPT NAISARGIKA KARKAS. THE SLOKAS IN THIS

> CHAPTER ARE LIKE SUTRA AND LOT OF CO-RELATION IS REQUIRED TO

> DECIPHER

> > > THEM. CHAR KARKA INDICATE THE HELP AND SUSTENANCE

> PROVIDED

> > > BY OTHER LIVING BEING OR LACK OF IT DUE TO THE

> ACTIONS OF PAST BIRTHS.STHIR KARKA INDICATE WHEN SUCH LIVING BEING

> WILL

> > > PUT TO GRIEF .

> > > 6. I urge , kindly read the

> article written by Rathji . It will show the light.

> > >

> Regards,

> > > G.K.GOEL

> > > Ph: 09350311433

> >

> > Add: L-409, SARITA VIHAR

> > > NEW DELHI-110 076

> > >

> INDIA

>

[Guest guest]

Sri Matre Namah

 

Dear Michal,

 

i want to say one senence or two to answer your question:

 

Rsihi Parasara did not explain *why* for everything he said in BPHS. To find this we do not have to go past first chapter itself! In trying to conjencture why Parasara said so, we should not change anything he stated i clear terms.

 

In fact Parasara never said why only 9 grahas (why not outer planets etc.,), which was only clarified by Sri Sanjay, by diferentiating between Grahas and planets! (not so obvious for many practicing astologers).

 

i read a lot many discussions between Narasimha and Sanjay starting 1998 till now. Hope this discussion will continue in the same spirit!

 

regards

Vishwanatham

 

On 10/28/08, Michal Dziwulski <nearmichal wrote:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hare Rama Krsna ||Dear Narasimha,I'm sorry for the use of the word 'omit'. However it is quite sad that you will pick out a word from my mail and use that as a basis for not answering the main question. I have some retrograde planets though, so I don't mind repeating the question for the 5th time:

" Can you please explain why it is Putra karaka that is merged with Matri karaka and not some other karaka? " And thank you for clarifying your version of drigdasa and its interpretation - very creative!

Eagerly awaiting your reply,Michal

 

 

Narasimha P.V.R. Rao <pvrsohamsa

Tuesday, October 28, 2008 5:27:47 PM Re: Words of Rishis, Paramparas and Knowledge

 

 

Namaste Michal,

 

Regarding your comment on drigdasa: Parasara taught drigdasa calculations and not judgment. We faithfully stick to a rishi's words in areas that a rishi has spoken about and use our judgment, intuition, logic and experiments to *fill in* the rest of the details that he *left open*. However, please note that we do NOT use our intuition, logic, judgment and experiments to *override* what a rishi has clearly spoken about.

 

In the case of drigdasa calculation, I stuck to Parasara 100%. However, just teaching calculations is useless to people of today. In order to make the teaching useful to people, I had to also solve the puzzle of how to use it. That is where my contribution comes in. The simple idea of taking the 5th house from dasa sign as lagna is my contribution. However, the calculations themselves are strictly based on Parasara. The rule furnished from my meditation supplements Parasara's teachings in an area he did not address.

 

Regarding 7 karakas: Parasara did NOT tell to *omit* PK. He clearly told to *combine* MK and PK into one portfolio. Period. If you want to change Parasara's words because they do not fit with your philosophization, bottomline is you are deviating from the words of rishi. That *would* be a leap of faith. Words of rishis are the pramaana and not your fancy philosophization.

 

In fact, I do not understand this stress on philosophization. Too much philosophization of half-baked knowledge kills knowledge. I would rather learn what rishis have taught clearly, without worrying about philosophizing it.

 

Best regards,Narasimha------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam

Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpanaSpirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom

Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. netFree Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org

Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------

 

 

sohamsa@ .com, Michal Dziwulski <nearmichal@. ..> wrote:

>> Hare Rama Krsna ||> > Dear Narasimha,> > Fortunately I am not one of these people tempted to believe Parasara's text is a black box etc. I am open to new ideas, but your article is not very convincing, it seems to tell us the earth is flat, after we had learnt that it is round. Like I said before, there is little explanation in your article. Furthermore, you have declined to answer questions. When someone offers a theory publicly, and then avoids answering valid questions that are raised we can only assume that he/she does not have the answers. Still, I will ask again.

> > If Parasara's verses on carakarakas are 'unambiguous' as you say they are, then can you please explain why it is Putra karaka that is merged with Matri karaka and not some other karaka? Putra karaka indicates progeny (putra means child), which is something specific to the living world, as opposed to the non-living world (buildings cannot have a child, follower etc.). This explanation seems very plausible, simple, and elegant - it is not philosophising but a matter of fact - I'm sure Parasara was aware of this and expected his audience to be also. By omitting Putra karaka there is a clear (unambiguous) distinction being made between the living and non-living as recognised by science and the Bhagavad Gita. It is not at all a leap of faith - pop stars have followers, buildings do not.

> > Drig Dasa. From the following statement it seems that you have made up your own rule not based on Parasara's drigdasa verse, added it to your translation of the rest, and called it 'Parasara's drig dasa'. Is this the case or am I mistaken? If it is indeed your own rule, furnished from your meditation then it should be called Narasimha's drigdasa so that new students do not get the two (Parasara and Narasimha) confused. Because I fully agree with you that it is the Rishi's words that we must follow:

> > " About a year later it came in a flash after a meditation session. When Narayana dasa starts from the 7th house, we consider the dasa sign to be a progression of the 7th house and hence take the 7th house from dasa sign as the progressed lagna. I thought why not apply the same idea?!! Drigdasa starts from the 9th house. So I thought of taking drigdasa sign as the progression of the 9th house. If I take the 5th hose from dasa sign, that should be the progressed lagna " .

> > Happy Diwali to you too,> Michal> > ____________ _________ _________ __> Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr> sohamsa@ .com; vedic astrology;

> Tuesday, October 28, 2008 9:28:23 AM> Words of Rishis, Paramparas and Knowledge> > > Namaste friends,> > Happy Deepavali/Diwali to all of you!>

> > Can you show me the verse of Parasara that explains the> > basis of chaturdasi dosa? Is the story of Chandra> > kidnapping Tara and betraying Guru mentioned in BPHS?> > .... Is it enough to learn sanskrit to derive the real

> > meaning of the Maharishi's?> > Parasara may have left out the philosophical basis, but he did teach various objective calculations of hora shastra. There are ambiguities in a few places, but things are quite clear in several places.

> > We can be true to Parasara atleast in the matter of calculations he clearly defined. We can theorize or experiment in areas where he left ambiguity. But I do not see why we should deviate from an unambiguous verse on calculations and come up with a big hypothesis instead.

> > * * *> > Some people may think that even unambiguously stated things somehow have some deep meaning that cannot be deciphered through good knowledge of Sanskrit language and grammar and an understanding of the writing style. However, this belief is inconsistent with Indian tradition. It is the tradition in India for people to study Sanskrit well, understand stylistic nuances, hone their interpretation skills, interpret classics and engage in scholarly debates.

> > Not the entire text of Parasara is a " black box " to one who has studied Sanskrit well. In fact, if that were to be the case, Parasara would not have created the text!!> > * * *

> > Some people may be tempted to believe that Parasara's text is a black box that should not be interpreted by any scholar today and we should stick to the interpretation of someone in the past, i.e. from some parampara. But that is against the spirit of knowledge that has been behind the wealth of knowledge that exists in India.

> > In the old days in India, even giants with impeccable pedigree (e.g. Adi Sankaracharya) never won debates by saying " this knowledge is from parampara and so it is correct " . They actually quoted rishis and debated on the interpretation of rishis. The words of rishis were taken to be ultimate and it was considered that those words could be interpreted by scholars and debated.

> > * * *> > Parampara is for INTERPRETING RISHIS and passing on the interpretation. It is not for overriding rishis. From time to time, errors do develop in parampara and they do need to be corrected by going back to the words of rishis.

> > Whenever I found a discrepancy between a teaching of our paramapara and an unambiguous teaching of Parasara on an objective matter such as a calculation, I experimented and found Parasara to be correct always.

> > Apart from the current example of chara karaka determination, let me take the case of drigdasa (on which you can download an article at VedicAstrologer. org/articles/ drik_am.zip) . Parasara unambiguously said that sthira dasa years should be used in drigdasa. But Pt Sanjay Rath taught chara dasa years. Parasara said that the order of reckoning aspects is zodiacal for fixed signs and odd dual signs and anti-zodiacal for movable signs and even dual signs. But Pt Sanjay Rath taught that the order is zodiacal for odd-footed signs and anti-zodiacal for even-footed signs.

> > In both the cases, the words of Parasara are crystal clear and I see no scope whatsoever for multiple interpretations. Moreover, when I tried Parasara's version, it worked nicely and made things much simpler and far more consistent.

> > * * *> > I have no doubt in my mind that the time-tested method used in India for millennia is STILL applicable today.> > Rishis obtain knowledge through direct experience and capture it in written/spoken form. Scholars from time to time interpret the words of rishis and debate. Their interpretations are passed down in paramparas. But the problem is that corruptions may occur from time to time. Some corruptions may be small and some may be big.

> > If a new scholar finds a previous interpretation passed down in a parampara to be inconsistent with a rishi's words, he/she corrects it. If necessary, there may be a scholarly debate. Of course, just the words of rishis are taken as pramaana (basis), and not the teachings of parampara.

> > This process of correction using the words of rishis as basis ensures that any corruptions that occur in knowledge are detected and weeded out sooner or later. This process is vital to the preservation of the knowledge of rishis in various paramparas.

> > Because human beings have some weaknesses, some obstacles to this process come up at times. However, Nature will find a way to make it work, eventually.> > BTW, the article in question on chara karakas is at VedicAstrologer. org/articles/ c_karaka. pdf.

> > Krishnaarpanamastu,> Narasimha> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam

> Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana

> Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom

> Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net> Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org

> Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org

> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > sohamsa@ .com, Michal Dziwulski <nearmichal@ ...> wrote:

> >> > Hare Rama Krsna ||> > > > Dear Narasimha,> > > > Can you show me the verse of Parasara that explains the basis of chaturdasi dosa? Is the story of Chandra kidnapping Tara and betraying Guru mentioned in BPHS? Perhaps it is, I must be honest with you I have not done justice to this great work - yet. I know it is mentioned elsewhere. But point is, this and many other vital Jyotish understanding is found in allied sorces of knowledge which includes other scriptures and parampara.

> > > > Is it enough to learn sanskrit to derive the real meaning of the Maharishi's? Meaning cannot come from grammar alone. A literal translation is a face value interpretation. A beggar may find a bag of money, but if what he sees is just paper, and decides to start a fire with it to stay warm, imagine the loss.

> > > > Sincerely,> > Michal> > > > ____________ _________ _________ __> > Narasimha P.V.R. Rao <pvr@>> > Gopal Goel <gkgoel1937@ ...>

> > Cc: vedic astrology; Indian_Astrology_ Group_Daily_ Digest@grou ps.com; sohamsa <sohamsa@ .com>

> > Monday, October 27, 2008 3:06:30 PM> > Re: Char Karka> > > > > >  > > Namaste Sir,> > > > > Seven > > > (7 )CHAR KARKA SCHEME IS FOR MUNDANE

> > CHARTS,> > > 5. 8 CHAR KARKA SCHEME IS FOR LIVING BEING > > .> > > > If you or anyone can show me the verse of Parasara > > that says the above, we can discuss your views further.

> > > > When mentioning the two schemes, Parasara clearly > > said that the 8-karaka scheme is used when two planets are in the same degree. > > He never talked about " living beings " vs " mundane charts " . Instead he talked

> > about matching the degrees of planets to decide 7 vs 8 karaka > > schemes.> > > > A clear guideline of Parasara has been ignored and > > a big hypothesis is made instead. Such a theory with a weak foundation

> > fails to convince me.> > > > Best > > regards,> > Narasimha> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------> > Do > > a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam

> > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana

> > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom

> > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net> > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org

> > Sri > > Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org

> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- > > > > - > > Gopal Goel > > Narasimha Rao > > Cc: vedic astrology ; Indian_Astrology_ Group_Daily_ Digest@grou ps.com ; sohamsa

> > Saturday, October 25, 2008 11:43 AM> > Char Karka> > > > Dear Friend,> > Why bring Pt. Sanjay Rath , place your views independently.> > I have again gone through the article of Rath ji and your article

> > carefully.I got the impression , that you are try to advocate your> > views instead of trying to understand the real intent of BPH.> > I may like to bring following points to your kind attention:

> > 1. Rath ji is your guru , never show disrespect to your guru.> > Such attitude will bring your downfall. Rishi Yajvalkya ,Jaimni > > sometimes taken different line of thinking , but with the permission

> > and with due respect to his guru.I think you are in USA too long.> > that is why you do not like to stick these simple norms.> > 2. Parasara had refereed higher authorities in BPHS KIKE 'SEER

> > GARG'> > 3. BPHS INTENDS THAT THERE ARE TWO DISTINCT> > SCHEMES OF CHAR KARKAS-7 AS WELL AS 8> > 4 In 7 char karka scheme Rahu is not considered .However , if two planets

> > are same zodiac degree in their respective signs, then char Karka replacement> > occurs and Rahu takes its place as sthir Karka of confusion and deceit.Seven> > (7 )CHAR KARKA SCHEME IS FOR MUNDANE CHARTS, THAT IS WHY

> > PUTRA kARKA IS ABSENT AND RAHU AS STHIR kARKA DOES NOT> > REPRESENT ANY LIVING PERSON BUT DECEIT ETC.> > 5. 8 CHAR KARKA SCHEME IS FOR LIVING BEING . BPHS> > CLEARLY STATES 8 kARKA IN SERIAL ORDER-AK,AMK,

> > BK, MK, PITK,PUTK,GK AND DK.THERE IS ABSOLUTELY> > ON AMBIGUITY OR CONFUSION.> > 6. kindly TRY TO UNDERSTAND THE PURPORT AND REASON > > BEHIND REPLACEMENT OF CHAR KARKA WITH STHIR KARKA.

> > THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT AND CRUCIAL TO UNDERSTAND THE SIGNIFICANCE ,AS TO WHY CHAR KARKA ARE REPLACED BY STHIR> > KARKAS.IN FACT THIS CHAPTER OF BPHS DEALS IN ALL KINDS OF

> > KARKAS ACCEPT NAISARGIKA KARKAS. THE SLOKAS IN THIS CHAPTER ARE LIKE SUTRA AND LOT OF CO-RELATION IS REQUIRED TO DECIPHER> > THEM. CHAR KARKA INDICATE THE HELP AND SUSTENANCE PROVIDED> > BY OTHER LIVING BEING OR LACK OF IT DUE TO THE ACTIONS OF PAST BIRTHS.STHIR KARKA INDICATE WHEN SUCH LIVING BEING WILL

> > PUT TO GRIEF .> > 6. I urge , kindly read the article written by Rathji . It will show the light.> > Regards,> > G.K.GOEL> > Ph: 09350311433> > Add: L-409, SARITA VIHAR

> > NEW DELHI-110 076> > INDIA

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