Tried and Tested Remedies for Average Man

[Guest guest]

Namaste Sundeep,

 

> My view is that Narasimhaji is mixing up the results of his

> own personal spiritual progress with the tried and tested

> remedies *for the average man* given by Jyotishis.

 

What I am objecting to is different from " tried and tested remedies for the

average man " .

 

Yes, astrologers and religious people in India have given various remedies for a

long time now and many " average " people followed them with faith, devotion and

discipline and got the material results they desired.

 

However, teachings such as the ones I questioned (*fasting* on some days

bringing " insult to Vishnu " , causing " serious doshas " or bringing " danger to

spouse " ) are hardly a part of " tried and tested " principles. These and several

other remedy principles being advanced in recent years are merely principles

taught in ONE parampara. Moreover, this is a parampara represented by a single

individual today. There is no opportunity for cross-checking the presumed

teachings of this parampara with another representative to whom knowledge was

passed independently. Thus, they are not a part of what one would call " tried

and tested remedies " of Indian astrologers for centuries.

 

* * *

 

Simple and pure-hearted astrologers and religious people across India have given

simple remedies to " average men " successfully for ages. You have debt problems?

Ok, then do Rina Vimochaka Angaraka stotra n times a day for m days. You want

children? Ok, then do Santana Gopala mantra n times a day for m days. Also, who

is your 5th lord? Mars? Ok, then do Subrahmanyashtakam n times everyday for m

days. You want to get married? Who is your 7th lord? Mercury? Ok, then do Vishnu

sahasra naam everyday for n days.

 

Simple stuff like that. And it worked for ages for many faithful " average men " !

 

They used very few horoscopic factors and different groups of Jyotishis used

different sets of common remedies successfully. This shows that there ARE many

paths, not just for spiritual progress but also for material progress through

prayer. In the same chart, various deities and various mantras can give the

desired material result. Most of them did not follow the strict " dos and don'ts "

suggested in this specific parampara that I am questioning.

 

* * *

 

If a village astrologer gave a person a mantra to get married, the person did it

faithfully and devotedly and got married, how exactly did it work?

 

If the mantra works to the fullest, the person experiences the mantra or mantra

devata. This experience changes depending on the mantra and mantra devata, but

this is an absolutely tremendous experience when and if it happens. However,

this does not happen to most people, as they are not ready. If such a complete

experience of a mantra were the goal, various dictums of mantra shastra, a

precise science, would be relevant.

 

Instead, if the person simply uses the mantra as a tool for begging the

compassionate Lord to give the little thing he asked for (a child or marriage or

a job etc), the Lord may give it when the karmik push behind the prayer exceeds

the karmic obstacles. It is not the precision of mantra shastra that works, but

the devotion, faith, surrender and desire of the astrologer and the person doing

the mantra, creating the karmik push behind the mantra. The force of devotion,

faith, surrender and desire in BOTH the persons are important contributing

factors.

 

I suggest that it is the latter that happens in most of the " tried and tested

remedies " given by astrologers and religious people for ages. The guidelines

they used are very few and the desire to help, devotion and faith are primary,

while the actual mantra is secondary. That is why it does not matter that they

are inconsistent and non-uniform in the mantras given.

 

I loosely used the terms commanding vs begging for the above two approaches and

said that most people are beggars.

 

People are mixing up knowledge meant for the former approach with the latter

approach and also adding a lot of further complicated new astrology rules to the

subject rather than sticking to " tried and tested remedies for average man " used

by many for ages. I am not the one mixing up, but they. I am actually suggesting

to take a step back and appreciate how astrologers have successfully given

" tried and tested remedies for average man " for ages and not complicate things

now unnecessarily. The complications being introduced now distract us from the

main problem rather than solving it. What is our main problem in astrological

remedies today?

 

Astrologers are increasingly becoming more egoistic, less spiritually developed

and less pure-hearted now, compared to the simple, pure-hearted and saintly

astrologers of old days. Faith and devotion in general populace are also going

down. So the effectiveness of remedies is going down compared to centuries or

even decades back and people are slowly losing faith even more. For this reason,

what we need to emphasize is *faith and devotion*, and *not* complicated new

technicalities WITHOUT WHICH many astrologers have been giving " tried and tested

remedies for average man " for ages!

 

* * *

 

I think my main point finally came out the way I wanted. I think I have

fulfilled my dharma with this topic and can now move on. Adios.

 

BTW, regarding religious psychology part at the end: This was just ONE analogy.

My writings on spirituality on are filled with tens of

analogies. I use analogies heavily. You can do a better psycho-analysis if you

study all of them, rather than a one-off analogy!

 

Best regards,

Narasimha

 

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sohamsa , " vedicastrostudent " <vedicastrostudent

wrote:

> Dear Bharatji,

> In essence, I dont see where we disagree? You seem to be exactly echoing what

I say. Is it simply the term idol worship? An idol is a *material*

representation of a deity with some sense of sacredness attached to that

material representation. Of course most Hindus do that (why else are idols kept

in temples.. the majority dont have a clue of Advaita Vedanta, if that's where

you're going with this discussion). And there is nothing wrong with it from my

point of view. Exactly as you say, *most* human beings need material symbols to

focus their faith, and many Hindus choose idols, and Christians use

christ-on-a-cross, and Muslims have the koran, and Sikhs keep the

guru-granth-sahib on a pillow in the gurudwara etc etc. And they all have their

sacred places of worship (all of them are material

representations..).Psychologically speaking, they *all* unconsciously project

the power of the Self/Atma, which they see as God (or a deity), into different

material symbols. Nothing wrong with that, IMHO. Did you by chance mistake my

presenting Abraham's attitude as my own?

>

> Getting back to my real point, which is completely orthogonal to yours (as I

said I agree with all your points). That is this: I think that as one

spiritually progresses, their need for symbols and doing specific rituals on

certain dates etc decreases as their own sense of submission to, and their

awareness of, their true Self increases. But that doesnt mean that all these

facts that Sanjayji, Michal, Zoran etc present are wrong for *the average

person*. My view is that Narasimhaji is mixing up the results of his own

personal spiritual progress with the tried and tested remedies *for the average

man* given by Jyotishis. Put differently, an average ego-obsessed person does

probably need to do all the right things on all the right dates and times to

cultivate the beginnings of a sense of submission. And as that sense grows, he

can afford to relax the rules. So Jyotishis should give remedies for the person

at *his/her* level of spiritual progress, not *theirs*.

>

> This is what I think, but of course I may be wrong.. Do you have some

disagreement with this?

>

> Regards,

>

> Sundeep

>

> sohamsa , Bharat - Hindu Astrology <astrologyhindu@>

wrote:

> >

> > Namaste Sundeep

> >

> > Please pardon my intervention. Hindus are not idol worshipers. And it is the

> > Hindus who know that Lord only is. They do not use the word " one " , since

> > " one " presupposes " two " and " three " ... and so on. Since Lord only is, the

> > entirety is contained within in including all time, space and causation.

> > Every object, every being is contained within the Lord. For an untrained

> > mind, it is difficult to consume this. To focus one's attention to this

> > principle he needs something tangible. So an object that can signify this

> > principle to the person becomes an object of worship. Once this shape is

> > given to the object... it is never considered an Idol. It is worshipped as

> > God itself. Noone goes to the temple and says " Hey Idol, .... " , everyone

> > fold their hands and say " Hey Krishna or Hey Rama or Hey Shiva ..... " .

> >

> > The people who wrongly call hindus idol worshippers are themselves

> > worshipping the idols. What is a cross? What is a the book Koran or the

> > image of Mecca or the words " Allah Hu Akbar " inscribed on a plate? These all

> > are Idols. Aren't they?

> >

> > So long is there a world and realization does not dawn upon oneself, one

> > would need something to focus their mind with. This in our scriptures have

> > been suggested through various ways:

> >

> > 1. Shapes and Symbols

> > 2. Elements

> > 3. Upasanas: Observing the nature and relating it to the Truth. Like endless

> > is the space and time and relating the quality of endless to the Truth.

> > 4. Mantra Japa- Herein the sound reverberates with the certain

> > element/aspect of nature. To that root is added our request. For those who

> > seek the truth, the mantra japa serves as a constant reminder of the what

> > the Truth is. For those how seek certain ends from it, they gain only that

> > much.

> >

> > Therefore Sundeep, I request you to study our culture more and you shall

> > find nothing that is sane and truthful missing from it.

> >

> > Sri Narasimha is suggesting that we do not command the Lord and worship him

> > undertaking any appealing mantra - which essentially means that the more we

> > understand its meaning the idea of the Lord shall become clearer and clearer

> > in our minds. This approach is for spiritual aspirants who are willing to

> > " let go themselves in the hands of the lord " . This is something that one has

> > to realize for oneself and not impose on others. Furthermore, it should not

> > be called " begging " . There is no difference between the Lord and our True

> > Self. To call ourselves beggars is to defile us and Srimad Bhagavad Gita

> > warns against such a self judgement.

> >

> >

> > Most people do not use the above approach, they want specific remedies for

> > their specific problems and that too quickly. The Mantra Shastra helps both

> > approaches. For the students, I think it is this part they should learn as

> > Jyotishas and the above part shall come automatically with their spiritual

> > " growth " and understanding.

> >

> > Hope this helps

> >

> > Thanks and Regards

> > Bharat

> >

> > On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 4:07 AM, vedicastrostudent <

> > vedicastrostudent@> wrote:

> >

> > > Dear Narasimhaji (and it might help others to read this fully too,

> > > trust me you may well be satisfied),

> > >

> > > First, let me say I am not about to either agree/disagree with you. I

> > > am only standing back and observing/categorizing your approach, and

> > > comparing it historical events that will give me a sense of the final

> > > import of your approach.

> > >

> > > If you read about Abraham, the supposed " father " of the three

> > > religions (Christianity, Judaism and Islam) that have together had the

> > > most following among all religions in the world (ever). As far as I

> > > know, he lived in a time of deities and ritual. He is supposedly the

> > > first to have actively sought to bring the notion of one God to the

> > > masses. He destroyed idols much to the dissatisfaction of lots around

> > > him. Apparently God revealed himself to Abraham several times.

> > > Abraham submitted himself completely to the will of God, always,

> > > without question. It seems logical to conclude that he destroyed and

> > > denounced idolatry because he felt, at the very least, that focus on

> > > the multiplicity of deity and webs of rituals took *away* a person's

> > > focus from the real thing - submission to the one and only God (which

> > > is what Abraham was really about i.e. submission to the one and only

> > > God). Before jumping to any conclusions about what I am trying to say,

> > > please read on.

> > >

> > > Me, I'm fascinated by religious psychology, i.e. what drives people to

> > > believe in God and how. I *dont seek to denounce* either Abraham or

> > > the idolaters (Hindus would obviously come to mind here), only to

> > > understand them. The way I have found to unify these two seemingly

> > > contradictory approaches is the following, and perhaps it will help

> > > you as well: God is *eventually only one* of course and " resides " deep

> > > within us, and projects himself (I use " project " in exactly the sense

> > > Michal describes) in various ways into human experience. As people get

> > > spiritually elevated, the projections become less necessary and they

> > > are able to have a more and more direct experience of God.

> > > Consequently, they start forgetting the role the projections

> > > *originally had in the beginning of their path* and consider the most

> > > important thing to be the complete submission to the *growing* inner

> > > light of God within themselves.

> > >

> > > My feeling is that that is what happened to Abraham, and is what is

> > > happening to you as well. Psychologically and astrologically speaking,

> > > the examples you choose to illustrate your point betray your

> > > psychology. You have unconsciously chosen an example of a mountain,

> > > with the *final God experience* sitting on top. That final God

> > > experience is the Sun, astrologically speaking i.e. the source, the

> > > symbol of the growing inner light within *you*. The various paths to

> > > the top that you talk about represent, I think, Mercury, with its

> > > various forms and distinctions (Prithvi tattwa?). As you behold the

> > > Sun, the king, in all his magnificence, everything else pales in

> > > comparison. And sure enough, you start posting that all the paths are

> > > unimportant :-)

> > >

> > > But see, not everyone is there yet, all the distinctions and dates and

> > > rituals are important, because they will unerringly lead one there, as

> > > they did for you. At least that's what I have gathered after listening

> > > to Sanjayji and all the gurus on this group..

> > >

> > > Regards,

> > >

> > > Sundeep