Ramakrishna's analogy on destiny & free will (Horoscope, free will..)

May 29, 2009

I might be sounding highly ignorant by saying this, but I have certain doubts on

the free-will theory.

If everybody has free-will and it can be stretched to change our destinys, what

about cases like where infants and babies and kids die? (either murdered or

death by sickness, accident). they should be also given the right to exercise

their free will, right, instead of giving death at the budding age? why do they

have to undergo whatever they undergo and some die being abused? why all this?

looking at those examples, though highly ignorant in all these aspects, i

thought that, our past karma (in this case, previous lives) plays too much

important role, to the extent that, whatever tiny percent of free-will we have

wont account much to this life, maybe it will surely affect the next lives.

and also about blessings and curses (remedies), if everybody wears gemstones

etc., and be happy and prosperous forever, why so much pain in the world? is it

that easy to erase all our bad past karmas? i dont know. praying to god

definitely is good, gives us some peace of mind which will indirectly act on the

decisions we take and hence, there might be some good done indirectly. but

that's about it. and if we are sincere in our prayers, maybe God/Goddess will

one day hear us out and help us. That's about it I guess.

Can anyone enlighten me on the above aspect I chose?

--- On Thu, 5/28/09, Narasimha P.V.R. Rao <pvr wrote:

Narasimha P.V.R. Rao <pvr

[vedic astrology] Ramakrishna's analogy on destiny & free will (Re:

Horoscope, free will..)

sohamsa , vedic astrology ,

,

Cc: Jyotish_Ganga

Thursday, May 28, 2009, 8:35 PM

Namaste friends,

> Ramakrishna Paramahamsa compared the results of past actions to be like

> a rope tied around the neck of a goat. Free will is restricted to the

> amount of freedom the rope allows one.

Ramakrishna is a master of explaining the toughest of philosophical points using

the simplest of analogies. His analogies are usually quite apt and brilliant.

Yes, karma or destiny (i.e. the result of past actions) is like a rope tied to

the neck of a goat. The rope restricts the movement of the goat, but does not

determine where the goat goes and what it does! That is upto the goat's free

will.

A thirsty goat may look at a river nearby and despair as it cannot reach the

river due to the rope. It may try and struggle continually, without reaching the

river. Another thirsty goat may realize that it cannot reach the river, accept

that, look around, find a small bucket of water behind it within reach if it

negotiates with the rope and the obstacles. It may turn back, go, drink that

water in the bucket and be happy.

While the destiny as frozen at the time of birth (and as reflected in the

horoscope) is like the rope tying the goat and the surroundings of the goat, the

actions of free will after birth are like the actions of the goat - how it

accepts and negotiates the rope and its surroundings to get what it wants.

* * *

Today's actions (karma) are tomorrow's destiny (karma). Some of today's actions

may impact destiny in a future life. Some of today's actions may modify destiny

for tomorrow (in this life itself!). Let me extend Ramakrishna' s analogy to

explain it.

A goat tied to a tree with a rope may go around the tree a few times in one

direction and the rope may get shorter. It may now be unable to reach places it

was able to reach earlier. Similarly, some bad acts of free will in this life

may tighten the destiny, make things worse and reduce one's options.

It may go around the tree a few times in another direction and the rope may get

longer. It may now be able to reach places it was unable to reach earlier.

Similarly, some good acts of free will in this life may improve the destiny and

make more things possible.

* * *

One's mind is conditioned based on one's destiny. One's surroundings and life

situations faced by one are influenced by one's destinty. One will be pulled in

certain directions. One may feel attraction for another person. Another person

may hate one an, abuse one and throw obstacles. One may not have enough money to

live happily. One may be adored by millions of people. And so on. One faces

different life situations at different times and in different matters.

However, destiny only shows how one (and one's mind) is pulled in various

directions and what life situations one finds oneself in. Irrespective of the

mental conditioning and one's circumstances, one can still choose between

different actions. The actions taken by one are not fixed based on the

horoscope. For example, one person may abuse one badly and one may feel great

anger towards that person, all on account of a previous karmik debt. But, when

badly provoked, one can either succumb to the temptation and fight back or just

ignore and move on.

Destiny places you in different situations. What you do in those situations is

based on how you use your free will. In some cases, free will has a lot of

wiggle room and many options and, in some cases, it has fewer options. But,

usually, you do have several options that may or may not be obvious and the

action you finally choose shapes your destiny in a future birth.

* * *

Please note that the Sanskrit word for destiny is karma and the Sanskrit word

for action is also karma. Basically, actions of today become destiny of

tomorrow. You will get reaction in future to your current actions and destiny is

the sum total of those actions that will come back to you.

Each action of yours that impacts other beings and objects of this universe will

go towards forming your destiny for future. (Here please note that both physical

and mental actions count. Any emotions you feel towards someone else and do not

necessary express outwardly will also impact that person in a subtle manner and

hence counts as an action.)

Horoscope captures the good and bad actions, committed physically or mentally to

other beings, until the current birth, which are to give their reactions in this

life. This is also known as destiny.

It does not fix what you do in various situations in your current life. You have

the ability to make different choices at important crossroads. The choices you

make are your karma (actions) and they shape your destiny for future. They may

either impact your current life itself, or become part of the destiny (as

reflected in the horoscope) in the next life.

* * *

Anybody who tells you that so and so houses show acts of free will does not

understand what free will is. Horoscope is the frozen list of past karmas that

form one's destiny for this life. It is like the rope tying the goat. Acts of

free will are like how the goat negotiates the rope and moves around within the

possible area to do its stuff. That is in the hands of the goat.

The scope and options available to free will can be estimated from the

horoscope, but the exact acts of free will are unpredictable based on horoscope.

To complicate things further, how exactly free will has been used until now in

this life (which cannot be seen from the horoscope) has an impact on the scope

and options available to free will at this time. The exertion of free will until

now may have modified the destiny.

* * *

I am not downplaying astrology. Going back to the original Chiranjeevi

prediction, the prediction that he would come into politics in 2007-2009 and

enjoy some kind of power was made using astrology. When someone is already a

candidate, even a random prediction of success or failure has a 1/2 or 1/3

probability. But, when there are no signs on the ground, a prediction on one's

political entry in a specific timeframe has a very low probability. Such a low

probability prediction made 7 years ahead using astrology came true. Moreover,

we have all seen many cases where astrology worked spectacularly. I am not

saying astrology is nonsense. But I am saying that we do not attempt to

understand its shortcomings.

When someone's free will works in a predictable way, i.e. when one's free will

has very few options and/or one reacts to life situations thrown up by the

destiny in predictable ways, job of an astrologer is easier. But, when free will

has a wide range of options and/or one used the free will powerfully, the gap

between the destiny as reflected by horoscope and the actual destiny as a result

of those actions may make an astrologer fail.

Best regards,

Narasimha

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> --- On Wed, 5/27/09, Shyam V. Srivatsa <shyam.srivatsa@ ...> wrote:

>

> Shyam V. Srivatsa <shyam.srivatsa@ ...>

> Re: Re: Horoscope, free will and high profile charts (Re:

Your prediction on Chiranjeevi)

> sohamsa@ .com

> Wednesday, May 27, 2009, 11:08 AM

>

> Namaste!

>

> Ramakrishna Paramahamsa compared the results of past actions to be like

> a rope tied around the neck of a goat. Free will is restricted to the

> amount of freedom the rope allows one. As one burns more of past karma,

> it is like the rope being loosened and the freedom given increases.

> Ultimately we are all bound by the power of prakriti or maya as one

> chooses to call it.

>

> In psychological terms, ones own thought structures are the rope that

> ties us. Our own conditioned mind restricts us. What a horoscope reveals

> in this sense is often the ropes that bind us. The grace of Guru and the

> power of sadhana burn away these ropes/sanchita karma.

>

> Regards,

>

> Shyam

>

> On Wed, 2009-05-27 at 13:38 +0530, Sanjay Prabhakaran wrote:

> >

> > || Om Gurave Namah ||

> > Dear Srinivasa,

> > Let me give my opinion,

> > Upachaaya houses 3,6,10 and 11 are for free will. Upachaaya means to

> > increase or grow. These houses can increase your level of karma. Most

> > of the houses are considered bad (except 10th) by Parashara. Hence we

> > should try to limit our free will for loading our karma baggage.

> >

> > 3rd House : Kaama or passion related karmas.

> > 11th house: Desire or Wants related karmas.

> > 6th house: Hatred, revenge etc.

> >

> > All the above are one of prime causes of increasing karma. Look at the

> > grahas in above places to see how many factors are forcing you to

> > indulge in those karmas. Malefics generally add more negative karma.

> >

> > 3rd house remedy is best to take Guru Upadesha (7th from 3rd is 9th

> > house).

> > 11th house worship Shiva

> > 6th House worship Vishnu.

> >

> > Warm Regards

> > Sanjay P

>

> sohamsa@ .com, Srinivasa Sunchu <padmanu@> wrote:

> >

> > Om Vishnave Namah

> >

> > Namasthe Narasimha Garu

> >

> > Is there a way or techniques to quantitatively and accurately ascertain how

much is the

> > destiny/baggage part and the free will part.

> > May be this is where modern day astrologers are lagging?

> >

> > Srinivasa

> >

> > --- On Tue, 5/26/09, Narasimha P.V.R. Rao <pvr@> wrote:

> > Namaste,

> >

> > > > how do we know that free will exists?.The so called free will can also

> > > > be an asumption.As far as my experience goes whatever freewill existed

> > > > for humans might have exited.I know majority will never agree but

> > > > still......

> >

> > Well, free will DOES exist. In fact, what exactly is destiny anyway? There

is no destiny if there is no free will, for today's act of free will shapes

tomorrow's destiny.

> >

> > In fact, Vasishtha tells Rama in " Yoga Vaasishtham " that there is nothing

called destiny. He says all that is there is your free will. He says that

actions done in the past using your free will will catch up with you and that

catching up is given the name of destiny. This destiny is thus nothing external,

but acts of your own free will getting back at you.

> >

> > Just as a person who spends all his monthly salary in the first 10 days of

the month may have no money to spend in the next 20 days, similarly people who

abused their free will in the past may be faced with such a weighty destiny that

their free will is useless right now. Such people may feel that there is nothing

called free will.

> >

> > The amount of leeway and wiggle room available for free may may vary from

person to person and situation to situation, but it is a fact that free will

exists and that acts of free will shape one's future.

> >

> > Best regards,

> > Narasimha

> >

> > > , " gopi_b927 " <gopi_b927@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Narasimha garu,

> > > >

> > > > how do we know that free will exists?.The so called free will can also

> > > > be an asumption.As far as my experience goes whatever freewill existed

> > > > for humans might have exited.I know majority will never agree but

> > > > still......

> > > > , " Narasimha P.V.R. Rao " <pvr@>

> > > > wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Namaste,

> > > > >

> > > > > I will share some freewheeling thoughts, in response to your question.

> > > > I am cc'ing this to some astrology lists after removing your name from

> > > > the mail.

> > > > >

> > > > > * * *

> > > > >

> > > > > For those who are unaware of the prediction referred to below, here is

> > > > a little background.

> > > > >

> > > > > I had predicted in print in 2000 that Telugu film actor Chiranjeevi

> > > > would come into politics in 2007-2009 and and enjoy some political

> > > > power. At the time of that prediction, there were no such indications on

> > > > the ground. But he did come into politics in the same timeframe. The

> > > > initial talk was in 2007, he finally formed a party in 2008 and

> > > > elections were in 2009. Though his party did badly, he was elected as a

> > > > legislator (MLA) in May 2009.

> > > > >

> > > > > Thus, the original prediction was quite successful. However, I upped

> > > > the ante last year by suggesting that Chiranjeevi' s party would do well

> > > > in 2009 elections. Though I was not specific regarding his level of

> > > > success and did not predict that he would become the Chief Minister, I

> > > > was honestly expecting his party to do better than they managed. Thus,

> > > > the followup of my original prediction is a failure.

> > > > >

> > > > > * * *

> > > > >

> > > > > It is my personal observation that the success rate in high profile

> > > > political predictions is less than in regular predictions like marriage,

> > > > job, childbirth etc in " regular " charts.

> > > > >

> > > > > In some cases, the reason is that the birthdata is not accurate and

> > > > yet we are eager to make predictions. But sometimes we make bad

> > > > predictions with good data too. Of course, it can be a human error in

> > > > judging various factors. However, that human error seems to be a little

> > > > more common in high profile political predictions than in regular

> > > > predictions. What could be the reason?

> > > > >

> > > > > I wonder if the factor of free will that is left out of astrology

> > > > plays a bigger role in political charts. I will try to think loud and

> > > > elaborate what I mean.

> > > > >

> > > > > * * *

> > > > >

> > > > > One's birth chart contains the list of actions committed in previous

> > > > lives using one's free will that are to give their reactions in this

> > > > life. However, as life goes on, one accumulates newer actions committed

> > > > in THIS life using one's free will. What happens at any point of time in

> > > > one's life is a function of ALL actions committed by one until that

> > > > point of time, INCLUDING the actions committed in THIS life until now.

> > > > Some key actions committed using one's free will in THIS life,

> > > > especially at important crossroads in life, should impact the life

> > > > events from then onwards.

> > > > >

> > > > > Many people are weighed down by too many karmas and always playing a

> > > > catchup. In other words, destiny (sum of the actions of previous lives

> > > > which are to give a reaction now) is too weighty and free will in this

> > > > life has little scope. When the options available for the free will in

> > > > this life are limited, there may not be significant actions using free

> > > > will and hence the modifications to destiny based on actions of this

> > > > life may not be big enough. Thus, horoscope may be sufficient to predict

> > > > events.

> > > > >

> > > > > However, highly popular, successful and high profile public

> > > > personalities may have less restrictions and more options available for

> > > > their free will. With their free will being more free and powerful, the

> > > > actions committed by their free will may have a higher weightage. As we

> > > > are able to see only their destiny in the horoscope (free will exercise

> > > > upto birth) and unable to factor in how free will was exercised in this

> > > > life until now, we are perhaps handicapped in our predictions.

> > > > >

> > > > > Whether a political leader is in limelight and becomes MP or the

> > > > leader of opposition in parliament or the Prime Minister, he is enjoying

> > > > some political power. Previous karmas placed him in a position to enjoy

> > > > that power. To predict the specific degree of power and make an accurate

> > > > prediction, is the horoscope sufficient always? Could the exercise of

> > > > free will in this life until now make a difference in some high profile

> > > > charts?

> > > > >

> > > > > * * *

> > > > >

> > > > > I am just thinking loud here. Rather than posing a question and

> > > > answering it myself, I will let learned friends ponder on this for

> > > > themselves.. .

> > > > >

> > > > > Best regards,

> > > > > Narasimha

> > > > >

> > > > > -

> > > > > Dear PVR garu,

> > > > >

> > > > > Namaste.

> > > > >

> > > > > If you don't mind, could you please look in to why your prediction on

> > > > Chiranjeevi failed ?

> > > > >

> > > > > I am not asking this question with a wrong intent. I wanted to

> > > > understand if

> > > > > 1) It is a human error (May be you ignored some data ? )

> > > > > 2) You still can't understand why it failed and you think that was the

> > > > correct prediction to be best of your knowledge.

> > > > >

> > > > > I had a 50-50 faith on astrology 3 years ago and after coming to know

> > > > about you / your lessons I developed strong faith and I thought all the

> > > > failures are not because of astrology but because of astrologer's lack

> > > > of knowledge.

> > > > >

> > > > > If it is case #1, it is okay. But if it is case #2, then we have a

> > > > problem. We will have to conclude that the Jyotish knowledge that is

> > > > available to us at this age is very limited and may not be accurate.

> > > > >

> > > > > Best Regards,

> > > > > <deleted>

May 29, 2009

Karmaashaya (the desire to do karma) emenates from Klesha, and is to be

experienced in present and future lives (Yogasutra,2.12). Klesha is a result of

past sins. When sins and virtues are equal, a jiva is born into human specie.

But if its karmas are not suffient to make it enjoy human life, it will die in

infancy. Death during infancy does not negate the theory of karma. Karma being

done is a mix of destiny anf free will. Destiny works in two ways : external

circumstances, and one's own samskaaras. Samskaara is etymologically dedrived

from sam + kr, and means the totality of past actions which have given rise to

horoscope and Karmaashaya. This Karmaashaya moulds oue free will too, hence all

our will is not really free. When Klista vrittis of chitta are attenuated by

means of kriyaa-yoga (vrata, tapa, & c), then Aklishta vrittis become dominant

and increase the range and area of free will. But as long as Klishta vrittis are

dominant, we are little more

than tools in the hands of destiny.

Following one's own nature and instincts blindly and not try to oppose evil

instincts leads to lower and lower status in future lives (-Gita). That is why

yugas get deteriorated from satayuga to kaliyuga : bad people predominate in

kaliyuga. More and more people give up practising real Dharma and live only

physical existence, forgetting all about spirituality. For real freedom, one

must " swim against the current " ( " vi-tarani " > vaitarani) of circumstances of

society as well as one's own samskaara. Its method is kriya-yoga, explained in

second chapter of Yogasutra. Unless one's samskaara is changed through rigorous

kriyayoga (vratas, tapa, etc), only gems and japa will not change destiny. Gems

and japa bring temporary and minor reliefs, they cannot change major events.

Generally, people want to cheat gods by means of gems and japa; this insincerity

makes gems and japa ineffective. Refusal to reform oneself is a sign of Klishta

nature of vrittis, whose

only remedy is tapa. As the first line of Aghmarshana sukta (Rgveda-x.191)

says, which forms a part of daily sandhyaa-vandana, Rta (moral order) and Satya

(anything that " really exixts " , ie, is in " sattaa " ) are born out of Tapa. Tapa

generates new Rta and Satya in samskaara, and strengthens old ones. This leads

to more room for free will and more intelligence to exersize that free will in

proper manner. Although many moksha-kaaraka yogas are described in Jyotisha, no

one attains Moksha on account of birth time chart, because birth time chart is

a result of past karma, and if past life was fit for moksha then present life

would not have resulted. The very fact that present life has been attained means

that something is wanting, some sins remain to be washed away. And sins cannot

be washed away by doing nothing. In kaliyuga, circumstances are more in favour

of sins. Hence, those who keep vigil of inner and outer circumstances and

exercize free will

judiciously can destroy sins and can thereby increase their freedom gradually,

eventually getting the ultimate freedom from bondage to Karmaashaya and to Flesh

for perfoming those karmas in next lives. Real free will is attained only after

permanent moksha, when both and chitta are got rid of and one's existence is

pure consciousness.

In a bonded state of Jiva, free will is not really free because Mana (mind)

intervenes with its samkalpas according to inertial instincts from Karmaashaya,

and these samkalpas of mind are more often than not misunderstood as free will.

Real free will (propensity to go against the tide of samskaara as well as of

circumstances) is aklishta vritti, which is present only in a minority of

humans. As long as Will is a result of samskaara, it is not really free. The

only source of " free " will is beyong this Jada (unconscious) chitta, and that is

Soul. Soul has power to befool itself by forgetting its separate existence and

to think merely according to unconscious mind, but Soul also has power to

override chitta and take its own decision : this is the real free will and it is

a result of Atma-jnaana. A spiritual Guru is needed for initiation. But as

Bhaagavata Purana says, an ignorant shishya prefers an ignorang guru, esp in

Kaliyuga. Really enlightened gurus,

who live away from pomp and show by renouncing all Maayaa are avoided by media

and public, and are even hated by the majority as little more than beggars (but

it does not mean all sanyaasis are really enlightened gurus, some of them are

cheats).

-VJ

=================== =========

________________________________

serenity forever <serenity_forever4

vedic astrology

Saturday, May 30, 2009 1:28:45 AM

Re: [vedic astrology] Ramakrishna's analogy on destiny & free will (Re: