The End of Men??? New Challenges for Astrologers and Relationships

[Guest guest]

Hi All,

 

I've been a bit behind handling things out in the real

world, and I hope to answer those who have written me

in due course, please be a bit patient.

 

In the meantime, I offer this essay I wrote sometime

back and presented in another astrological online

forum, where it created quite a stir. It follows along

the lines I have presented with the recent book,

" Mismatch " . This is an issue I feel that we in the

astrological cannot afford to ignore under the guise

of hippie/new age fluff or elitist snobbery. We have

to be willing to delve into the hardcore issues of

life and put our minds to work with commonsensical

solutions. The following is one man's attempt to

traverse those waters.

 

Comments, Please...

 

 

The End of Men??? - New Challenges for Astrologers and

Relationships

 

Posted by Mu'Min M. Bey on Thursday, 11 March 2004, at

3:00 a.m.

 

Hi All,

 

Since my last posted comments, I got a number of

offlist emails from

several ladies on the question of what Micheal Moore

calls " The End of

Men " . It was in response, specifically, to my

commentary regarding my

experiences with Black female clients and their

seemingly very hard time

finding suitable mates to partner with.

 

As several of the ladies who have contacted me on this

issue point out,

it is not a " Black " problem, but rather a " women "

problem - perhaps the

better way of putting it is as a " man " problem, since

this is where it

seems to lie?

 

No matter what system you use, what your personal

belief system is,

etc., I think we ALL can agree on several basic facts

of existence for

*most* astrologers:

 

1. That at least half of all clients in any working

astrologer's

practice will have to do with relationship concerns

 

2. That easily 60% of all clients to an astrological

practice are women

 

I can personally say, based on my own experience, that

easily at least

80% of my clientele are women - and virtually ALL of

them want me to

speak on relationship issues with them. Rarely do I

get the purely

business interested client, and a little more often I

get job and health

issue clients. The bulk and mass of them are

relationship oriented.

 

Sometime back, in a post entitled " The Changing Face

of the 9th House " I

cited the studies of several sociologists, who contend

that over the

past twenty years or so, college attendance and

graduation among males

has fallen significantly, in comparison to female

participation and the

like. While I was attacked from certain quarters on

some of the points

made in that post, I felt the overall point I was

making was " lost in

the sauce " . The study shows a drop off not only in

terms of Black men,

but ALL men, including Asians, once highly regarded

accross the board as

the " model minority " .

 

As we all know, in our days and times, things are a

bit more nuanced,

more complex, than the more meat-and-potatoes of our

forebears. Things

that are problematic in one area can lead to problems

in other areas. It

all can get very, very tangled.

 

While I do have a number of White women clients (and

virtually no White

male ones), to date, none of them have approached me

with the same level

of urgency as my Black women clients. It is well

documented, to even the

most casual observer, that on that front there is an

ever-increasing

disparity between the genders insofar as educational

and career

attainment. One only need hang out with a bunch of

" sistas " for an

evening, and it won't be long before you hear the

" lack of eligible

Black men " to marry, date and so on. Barely a week

goes by when I don't

hear these concerns from a Black lady client.

 

But again, as I pointed out, and this is borne out by

several ladies in

this very forum, this is not just a " Black " problem,

although I think we

can all agree that there it is a bit more acute.

 

So, as astrologers, at least this is how I approach

it, the questions

become:

 

1. WHY is there such a disparity in these ways? And,

 

2. What can be done about it, from my position as an

astrologer?

 

Neither of these questions, for me, are easy.

 

As for the first question, I think it has to do with

the years following

the Women's Lib movement of the late 1960s and on into

the 70s and 80s;

more and more women got more and more access to

education (on ALL

levels), which in turn led to more potential for

increased income

earning and status in terms of employment and business

owning

opportunities. The Roe v. Wade decision, along with

advances in

medicine, made it possible for women to decide when if

ever, she will

bear a child, and under what circumstances. She no

longer needed the

support or approval of a man in these areas, and, as

we see in TV

programs like " Sex in the City " women now appreciate

their sexual

freedom on par with men.

 

Astrologically, from the Western standpoint, all of

this occured in the

modern era, as Uranus transited Libra, then Scorpio;

as Pluto transited

the same signs. " Murphy Brown " - instead of

influencing the female

masses, as put forth by VP Dan Qayle - only reflected

the choices of

many, many women in society, for whatever reasons.

 

Meanwhile, on the male side, it is difficult for me to

get a handle on

the question accross the board - and since I am a huge

believer in

speaking about that which one knows, I will answer it

from the

perspective of a Black man - and from my experience in

working with

Black male clients.

 

Insofar as that is concerned, I think part of the

answer for why there

is so great a disparity in terms of educational and

career attainment,

which leads to more similarity that facilitates

relationship and so on,

is due to Black men's voices being devauled, or not

being considered as

important. As Michael Moore points out, all one needs

do is click on the

TV anywhere accross America in order to get the

impression that all

Black men, or nearly all of them, are rogue thugs out

to impregnate

anything moving and shoot up anything alive. There is

not much in the

way of counterbalance, and the " mirror theory " -

something that more

formally psychologically educated among you know very

well - is a

powerful device in the light of the aforementioned

media image

onslaught. For every one " positive " Black male image,

real or perceived,

there easily a dozen on the other side, again, real or

perceived. And

that's just for starters. There are other factors,

both self-inflicted

on the part of those Black men themselves, and

outer-imposed on the

society in which they have little, if any real imput

as to how things

are done and run.

 

Somewhere along the line, from where I sit, it occurs

to me that Black

men in particular, and perhaps men in general to some

extent (and by

this, I mean the average, day to day guy, not the

wealthy cabal types),

have lost relevance in light of the changing times.

Gender roles as we

once knew them are blurred, and in some cases, are

eroding to the point

that they become irrelevant within another generation.

As far as Black

men accross the board goes, in a general sense, they

not only have any

control of how they are seen by the rest of the world,

they also don't

have a " voice " , so to speak. And again, self-inflicted

behavior and the

like, results in what Princeton scholar Cornell West

calls the " nihlism

of the inner city " .

 

There is more to be said about the first question, as

to how and why

things got to be where they are today, and the above

are only a few

musings on my part, from admittedly a rather limited,

yet focused

perspective on a much larger question. I welcome any

feedback and any of

that.

 

As far as the next question, again, I seem to be

stumped, because of the

sheer enormity of the situation, at least as African

Americans are

concerned. Again, I frequently get female clients who

come to me out of

sheer frustration because they cannot find suitable

mates - and major

area of concern for women, I have found, because they

tend to want

someone with a similar experience (which means college

education and the

deportment and values that come with it so often, not

to mention the

employment and income). Again, from the African

American angle, it's a

very, very tough nut to crack.

 

I remember vividly, just a few weeks ago, a Black lady

client coming to

me on the recommendation of a good friend and

colleague. She was

literally in tears over the fact that she could not

find anyone to be

with. Like many women I have seen before, she had a

very strong

background educationally and careerwise, but her

relationship life was

shot - and she was sexually assaulted on several

occasions to boot. Of

course, all of the things we have learned to see in

our days and times,

like Saturn Rx, etc. were there and we did discuss

this - but it still

came down to what I refer to above as " The End of

Men " . She pleaded for

me to help her, and I felt utterly helpless because I

didn't know what

to do. In alot of ways, I still don't now.

 

Studies taken have shown, that among today's Black

women of marriageable

age, only one out of every four will marry in their

lifetime. Other

studies show that as these women outpace their male

counterparts in the

educational and career areas, the chances for marriage

dwindle even

further. For many of these women, they will spend many

years alone,

either as a result of being a victim of circumstance,

and/or by their

own choice.

 

As you can see, this is a very, very complex issue,

and I haven't even

addressed it on in a broader sociological context,

just in terms of the

African American experience.

 

Because it is my view that by definition (at least in

part) we

Astrologers are Social Scientists to the extent that

our primary job is

to understand people and the circumstances out of

which they come, I

contend that it is impossible to look at the person -

themselves or

their astrology - in an isolated, " fishbowl " fashion.

Whenever someone

approaches me to get their chart done, I always keep

in mind that their

chart is nothing but the transit picture of the time

when they were

born. That larger sociological context therefore, will

be a major

calculus into that person's development and potential

outcome, all

things being equal, of course.

 

Many of the women I have discussed, who have come to

me, were born with

Uranus and Pluto either in the late stages of Virgo,

or anywhere between

Libra and Scorpio. These signs, again from the Western

perspective (and

this is one of the great strengths of Western

astrology, by the way, its

" Outer Planets " ), clearly show the fundamental

seachange of our culture

and times with regard to gender roles and the

empowerment that came

along with it...as well as the inherent challenges

that would come along

with it as well. It is the women of these generations,

that many of

these studies are based on. Many of the men (in this

case Black men)

that have been studied also come from these time

periods. Again, another

touch nut to crack.

 

Finally, many ladies have pointed out to me in offlist

email, that they

have found that many of the women they know, seem to

have more of an

interest in things such as therapy and support groups;

they note that

men simply will not do these things unless forced by

court order, etc.

Again, my direct experience with White and other men

is limited within

this context, so again I will speak from both my

direct expereience as a

Black man, and from my experience in my capacity as a

counselor and

observer of Black men in general.

 

For many Black men, probably most of them, to show any

interest or need

in ANY kind of therapy or support group is to make an

admission of an

inherent weakness - and - depending on where you are,

it is an

invitation for others to eat you alive. Many Black men

have learned,

either by direct experience or observation, to adopt

what the

psychological community calls " coping and defense

mechanisms " and

" survival tactics " in order to navigate what many of

them perceive as a

hostile environment. Unfortunately, as with anything

taken to an

extreme, these very behaviors are slowly pushing these

men more and more

out what would be considered the mainstream, which in

turn means more

and more out of the reach and grasp of potential

mates. More Black men

end up in prison, underemployed, unemployed, or die an

early death, than

any other male in the United States. Many have

significant mental health

and/or emotional issues. And, of course, we cannot

rule out the impact

of drugs, from a variety of angles here.

 

As with most things with very complex components to

them, there is no

fast and easy answers to these questions or the issues

they raise; and I

am very wary of anyone who rattles off a few good

sounding, even if well

meaning, cliche's. What I do know is this - that

without Astrology in my

life, I'd probably be dead - or worse, life out a fate

that would be

worse than death. It is because of this that I am

committed to helping

Black men heal, with the knowledge I have learned from

a variety of

sources (and this includes Mr. Tyl). But it's an

uphill struggle. It

takes time, patience, persistence.

 

It's just a damn shame that the Sistas have to linger

in Limbo while we

work the kinks out.

 

Any comments, would sorely be appreciated.

 

Salaam, Mu

 

The End of Men - Clarification

 

Posted by Mu'Min M. Bey on Thursday, 11 March 2004, at

3:46 p.m., in

response to Re: The End of Men??? I think you're

looking at this issue

through the wrong lens..., posted by Liza on Thursday,

11 March 2004, at

1:12 p.m.

 

Hello All,

 

I think it is necessary to attempt to clarify my

position, and reasoning

for posting my thoughts earlier this morning.

 

My reason for posting those thoughts was in response

to a number of

female members of this very Forum, who had responded

to some commentary

I made on another thread, dealing with Vocational

astrology. They were

very interested in what I had to say about the

" spillover " effect in

terms of career and employment, and how it can effect

relationship

(marriage) and family cohesion. While my comments were

made through a

lens that admittedly suggested the experience of a

particular group of

people, these women - NONE of them coming from this

group - ALL reported

similiar situations.

 

In other words, I was talking about African Americans,

and the women who

contacted me where all White.

 

If it were just one or two women who contacted me with

these comments

and concerns, I would have taken it as just personal

observations. But

when I hear 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 women, who in all

likelihood don't know each

other very well, then I'm apt to think that there just

may be something

there. So I looked into one of the piles of research

that I have on my

desk and in my folders.

 

That lead me to mention my " Changing Face of the 9th

House " post, where

I clearly stated that, based on studies that have been

conducted over

the past two decades, that college participation and

graduation rates

have significantly dropped off among males of ALL

racial and ethnic

groups (in America). These studies are easily

available on the Internet,

and one of my sources comes from a book I have

mentioned in this Forum,

entitled Two Nations, by Andrew Hacker. But by no

means, is his book (or

the studies he cites) the end-all, be-all; there are

other studies, many

of them, that also point in the same direction.

 

Up to this point, I have never thought to consider

this issue from a

more panoramic view, because quite simply, my pool of

White clients, of

either gender, is considerably smaller than my African

American and

Indian/foriegn pools. Therefore, until these women

contacted me

yesterday, I had considerable " blindspots " in this

respect. Their

experiences, along with the studies I have mentioned,

were an eye-opener

for me - and hopefully and eye-opener for every one of

you.

 

While it is true that there are solutions and options

for almost any

given situation, it is also true that we should always

consider the

times in which we live, and to do so from a point of

honesty, which

sometimes can hurt. I think it is safe to say that the

situation I speak

to here was not the case even 20 years ago, definitely

not 40 years ago

- within living memory of many here in this Forum.

These circumstances,

coming at a time when the very concept of marriage and

relationship are

being challenged in very fundamental ways (the Gay

Marriage Controversey

and Debate), puts these other concerns on our plate as

astrologers in

very strong and nuanced ways. I know it does for me.

 

I have a client - a Black lady client - who is in her

mid-30s. She went

to and graduated from a very prominent Southern

university, graduated

with honors, and now owns/runs a chain of very

successful businesses.

About 3 years ago, she was among a considerable number

of my female

clients who were having the most difficult time

finding suitable mates,

and at the time, I was much more cocky (if you can

beleive that, LOL)

and self-assured about the situation, thinking that

fundamental

differences such as formal educational values vs. no

such thing, etc.,

wouldn't make that much of a difference. As I soon

learned from her and

those other lady clients, I was wrong. At the very

least, my views

needed a strong " re-think " . For this woman, having

someone who was " on

her level " was very important, and she had gone the

" opposites attract "

route - and it didn't work. It was a very interesting,

yet difficult,

situation.

 

The last time I spoke with this lady was this time

last year; she had

met a man who was " on her level " (meaning, similar

educational

background, values, earning potential, etc.). The only

thing was, he was

a continental African - which was great for her, but

which also raised

some other questions in terms of potential solutions.

Since Africans who

emigrate here, for the most part, tend to have such

qualifications,

insofar as Black women are concerned who are in that

situation, that

could be an option. Indeed, I have seen other ladies

exercise this

option as well. Time will tell as to whether the

cultural differences

can be ameliorated or not (something I have heard

about from some of

these women; it seems as if they have jumped out of

the frying pan and

into the fire).

 

Over the past 5 years, I have done the most intense

study into this

question being raised here. I have talked to literally

thousands of

women (admittedly, Black women; again, the ladies in

this Forum have

forced another " re-think " ), with so many of them

saying the same things

the lady I am referring to above said. While there is

always something

to be said for internal demons and the like, and they

cannot be

underestimated, there is also something to be said for

50,000 Frenchmen

not being wrong. Again, the studies, conducted by

people who in all

likelihood don't know me and probably would debunk

Astrology, speaks for

itself.

 

Philadelphia, where I live, is a college town. It is

home to Temple

University, University of Pennsylvania, LaSalle

College, Saint Joseph's

University (Go Hawks!) and many more such schools.

During the same

period I was conducting my informal interviews with

women, I also took

it upon myself to puruse the campuses, just to

" eyeball " the male

populations. I have to say, that one can see a

difference, just walking

the campus grounds of any of these schools (the more

well known and

larger ones being mentioned here). The male

populations are getting

smaller.

 

This has to put some level of strain on already

existing relationships,

and the relationship potential of both the men and

women here, although

without a doubt, it is with those women these concerns

are likely to be

the strongest. In fact, in the book I made mention of

earlier, " Brothers

on the Mend " , the author makes special note of these

new circumstances.

Again, this is something that can be applied accross

the board as the

ladies who have contacted me have pointed out. After

all, Candace

Bergen, nor the lady who stars on the TV show " The

Practice " do not

resemble Queen Latifah.

 

Relationships remains the Number One concern on the

minds of those who

will consult any one of us. My thoughts this morning,

and now, are an

attempt to examine a new set of circumstances that can

effect those

concerns in major ways - especially in Times to Come.

 

I hope I have clarified my position and the method of

my madness.

 

Salaam, Mu

 

 

=====

Mu'Min M. Bey

Western and Vedic Astrologer

Check out my site:

muminbey.tripod.com

" The Future of Astrology, is Here... "

AOL IM Screen Name: JediMu

Join the Pan Astrological Forum, Where Freedom in Astrological Thought Lives!

Just send a blank email to panastroforum-

 

 

 

 

 

 

Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Messenger.

http://messenger./

[Guest guest]

Hello Mu,

 

Again an excellent post from you!

 

I will post your article onto another forum? I guess that I know a

lot people who would like to discuss about it.

 

I can understand very well what you are trying to say. The revolt of

women's positions have been also dramatically changing their love-

lives. As a high educated white woman, I have dated several men, who

felt intimidated by my background and also with my strong (scorpio)

personality ;-)

I don't brag about myself and look quite shy and act civilized, but

underneath I am not a softie, which they learn dating me. I

understand that there are a lot of men who feel more comfortable

when they psychologically can " override " a woman. I don't say every

man is like that, let's say the more " insecure " men are more likely

to be like that. You see it is also a white problem, like you

mentioned about Sex and the City where the women are intelligent

with good jobs and strong characters. I believe it will take some

generations before men get used to the emancipation, which followed

too quickly the last 20 years to catch up with. Most men in their

thirties were used to traditional moms, right?

 

Anne

, Mu'Min Bey <mumin_bey>

wrote:

> Hi All,

>

> I've been a bit behind handling things out in the real

> world, and I hope to answer those who have written me

> in due course, please be a bit patient.

>

> In the meantime, I offer this essay I wrote sometime

> back and presented in another astrological online

> forum, where it created quite a stir. It follows along

> the lines I have presented with the recent book,

> " Mismatch " . This is an issue I feel that we in the

> astrological cannot afford to ignore under the guise

> of hippie/new age fluff or elitist snobbery. We have

> to be willing to delve into the hardcore issues of

> life and put our minds to work with commonsensical

> solutions. The following is one man's attempt to

> traverse those waters.

>

> Comments, Please...

>

>

> The End of Men??? - New Challenges for Astrologers and

> Relationships

>

> Posted by Mu'Min M. Bey on Thursday, 11 March 2004, at

> 3:00 a.m.

>

> Hi All,

>

> Since my last posted comments, I got a number of

> offlist emails from

> several ladies on the question of what Micheal Moore

> calls " The End of

> Men " . It was in response, specifically, to my

> commentary regarding my

> experiences with Black female clients and their

> seemingly very hard time

> finding suitable mates to partner with.

>

> As several of the ladies who have contacted me on this

> issue point out,

> it is not a " Black " problem, but rather a " women "

> problem - perhaps the

> better way of putting it is as a " man " problem, since

> this is where it

> seems to lie?

>

> No matter what system you use, what your personal

> belief system is,

> etc., I think we ALL can agree on several basic facts

> of existence for

> *most* astrologers:

>

> 1. That at least half of all clients in any working

> astrologer's

> practice will have to do with relationship concerns

>

> 2. That easily 60% of all clients to an astrological

> practice are women

>

> I can personally say, based on my own experience, that

> easily at least

> 80% of my clientele are women - and virtually ALL of

> them want me to

> speak on relationship issues with them. Rarely do I

> get the purely

> business interested client, and a little more often I

> get job and health

> issue clients. The bulk and mass of them are

> relationship oriented.

>

> Sometime back, in a post entitled " The Changing Face

> of the 9th House " I

> cited the studies of several sociologists, who contend

> that over the

> past twenty years or so, college attendance and

> graduation among males

> has fallen significantly, in comparison to female

> participation and the

> like. While I was attacked from certain quarters on

> some of the points

> made in that post, I felt the overall point I was

> making was " lost in

> the sauce " . The study shows a drop off not only in

> terms of Black men,

> but ALL men, including Asians, once highly regarded

> accross the board as

> the " model minority " .

>

> As we all know, in our days and times, things are a

> bit more nuanced,

> more complex, than the more meat-and-potatoes of our

> forebears. Things

> that are problematic in one area can lead to problems

> in other areas. It

> all can get very, very tangled.

>

> While I do have a number of White women clients (and

> virtually no White

> male ones), to date, none of them have approached me

> with the same level

> of urgency as my Black women clients. It is well

> documented, to even the

> most casual observer, that on that front there is an

> ever-increasing

> disparity between the genders insofar as educational

> and career

> attainment. One only need hang out with a bunch of

> " sistas " for an

> evening, and it won't be long before you hear the

> " lack of eligible

> Black men " to marry, date and so on. Barely a week

> goes by when I don't

> hear these concerns from a Black lady client.

>

> But again, as I pointed out, and this is borne out by

> several ladies in

> this very forum, this is not just a " Black " problem,

> although I think we

> can all agree that there it is a bit more acute.

>

> So, as astrologers, at least this is how I approach

> it, the questions

> become:

>

> 1. WHY is there such a disparity in these ways? And,

>

> 2. What can be done about it, from my position as an

> astrologer?

>

> Neither of these questions, for me, are easy.

>

> As for the first question, I think it has to do with

> the years following

> the Women's Lib movement of the late 1960s and on into

> the 70s and 80s;

> more and more women got more and more access to

> education (on ALL

> levels), which in turn led to more potential for

> increased income

> earning and status in terms of employment and business

> owning

> opportunities. The Roe v. Wade decision, along with

> advances in

> medicine, made it possible for women to decide when if

> ever, she will

> bear a child, and under what circumstances. She no

> longer needed the

> support or approval of a man in these areas, and, as

> we see in TV

> programs like " Sex in the City " women now appreciate

> their sexual

> freedom on par with men.

>

> Astrologically, from the Western standpoint, all of

> this occured in the

> modern era, as Uranus transited Libra, then Scorpio;

> as Pluto transited

> the same signs. " Murphy Brown " - instead of

> influencing the female

> masses, as put forth by VP Dan Qayle - only reflected

> the choices of

> many, many women in society, for whatever reasons.

>

> Meanwhile, on the male side, it is difficult for me to

> get a handle on

> the question accross the board - and since I am a huge

> believer in

> speaking about that which one knows, I will answer it

> from the

> perspective of a Black man - and from my experience in

> working with

> Black male clients.

>

> Insofar as that is concerned, I think part of the

> answer for why there

> is so great a disparity in terms of educational and

> career attainment,

> which leads to more similarity that facilitates

> relationship and so on,

> is due to Black men's voices being devauled, or not

> being considered as

> important. As Michael Moore points out, all one needs

> do is click on the

> TV anywhere accross America in order to get the

> impression that all

> Black men, or nearly all of them, are rogue thugs out

> to impregnate

> anything moving and shoot up anything alive. There is

> not much in the

> way of counterbalance, and the " mirror theory " -

> something that more

> formally psychologically educated among you know very

> well - is a

> powerful device in the light of the aforementioned

> media image

> onslaught. For every one " positive " Black male image,

> real or perceived,

> there easily a dozen on the other side, again, real or

> perceived. And

> that's just for starters. There are other factors,

> both self-inflicted

> on the part of those Black men themselves, and

> outer-imposed on the

> society in which they have little, if any real imput

> as to how things

> are done and run.

>

> Somewhere along the line, from where I sit, it occurs

> to me that Black

> men in particular, and perhaps men in general to some

> extent (and by

> this, I mean the average, day to day guy, not the

> wealthy cabal types),

> have lost relevance in light of the changing times.

> Gender roles as we

> once knew them are blurred, and in some cases, are

> eroding to the point

> that they become irrelevant within another generation.

> As far as Black

> men accross the board goes, in a general sense, they

> not only have any

> control of how they are seen by the rest of the world,

> they also don't

> have a " voice " , so to speak. And again, self-inflicted

> behavior and the

> like, results in what Princeton scholar Cornell West

> calls the " nihlism

> of the inner city " .

>

> There is more to be said about the first question, as

> to how and why

> things got to be where they are today, and the above

> are only a few

> musings on my part, from admittedly a rather limited,

> yet focused

> perspective on a much larger question. I welcome any

> feedback and any of

> that.

>

> As far as the next question, again, I seem to be

> stumped, because of the

> sheer enormity of the situation, at least as African

> Americans are

> concerned. Again, I frequently get female clients who

> come to me out of

> sheer frustration because they cannot find suitable

> mates - and major

> area of concern for women, I have found, because they

> tend to want

> someone with a similar experience (which means college

> education and the

> deportment and values that come with it so often, not

> to mention the

> employment and income). Again, from the African

> American angle, it's a

> very, very tough nut to crack.

>

> I remember vividly, just a few weeks ago, a Black lady

> client coming to

> me on the recommendation of a good friend and

> colleague. She was

> literally in tears over the fact that she could not

> find anyone to be

> with. Like many women I have seen before, she had a

> very strong

> background educationally and careerwise, but her

> relationship life was

> shot - and she was sexually assaulted on several

> occasions to boot. Of

> course, all of the things we have learned to see in

> our days and times,

> like Saturn Rx, etc. were there and we did discuss

> this - but it still

> came down to what I refer to above as " The End of

> Men " . She pleaded for

> me to help her, and I felt utterly helpless because I

> didn't know what

> to do. In alot of ways, I still don't now.

>

> Studies taken have shown, that among today's Black

> women of marriageable

> age, only one out of every four will marry in their

> lifetime. Other

> studies show that as these women outpace their male

> counterparts in the

> educational and career areas, the chances for marriage

> dwindle even

> further. For many of these women, they will spend many

> years alone,

> either as a result of being a victim of circumstance,

> and/or by their

> own choice.

>

> As you can see, this is a very, very complex issue,

> and I haven't even

> addressed it on in a broader sociological context,

> just in terms of the

> African American experience.

>

> Because it is my view that by definition (at least in

> part) we

> Astrologers are Social Scientists to the extent that

> our primary job is

> to understand people and the circumstances out of

> which they come, I

> contend that it is impossible to look at the person -

> themselves or

> their astrology - in an isolated, " fishbowl " fashion.

> Whenever someone

> approaches me to get their chart done, I always keep

> in mind that their

> chart is nothing but the transit picture of the time

> when they were

> born. That larger sociological context therefore, will

> be a major

> calculus into that person's development and potential

> outcome, all

> things being equal, of course.

>

> Many of the women I have discussed, who have come to

> me, were born with

> Uranus and Pluto either in the late stages of Virgo,

> or anywhere between

> Libra and Scorpio. These signs, again from the Western

> perspective (and

> this is one of the great strengths of Western

> astrology, by the way, its

> " Outer Planets " ), clearly show the fundamental

> seachange of our culture

> and times with regard to gender roles and the

> empowerment that came

> along with it...as well as the inherent challenges

> that would come along

> with it as well. It is the women of these generations,

> that many of

> these studies are based on. Many of the men (in this

> case Black men)

> that have been studied also come from these time

> periods. Again, another

> touch nut to crack.

>

> Finally, many ladies have pointed out to me in offlist

> email, that they

> have found that many of the women they know, seem to

> have more of an

> interest in things such as therapy and support groups;

> they note that

> men simply will not do these things unless forced by

> court order, etc.

> Again, my direct experience with White and other men

> is limited within

> this context, so again I will speak from both my

> direct expereience as a

> Black man, and from my experience in my capacity as a

> counselor and

> observer of Black men in general.

>

> For many Black men, probably most of them, to show any

> interest or need

> in ANY kind of therapy or support group is to make an

> admission of an

> inherent weakness - and - depending on where you are,

> it is an

> invitation for others to eat you alive. Many Black men

> have learned,

> either by direct experience or observation, to adopt

> what the

> psychological community calls " coping and defense

> mechanisms " and

> " survival tactics " in order to navigate what many of

> them perceive as a

> hostile environment. Unfortunately, as with anything

> taken to an

> extreme, these very behaviors are slowly pushing these

> men more and more

> out what would be considered the mainstream, which in

> turn means more

> and more out of the reach and grasp of potential

> mates. More Black men

> end up in prison, underemployed, unemployed, or die an

> early death, than

> any other male in the United States. Many have

> significant mental health

> and/or emotional issues. And, of course, we cannot

> rule out the impact

> of drugs, from a variety of angles here.

>

> As with most things with very complex components to

> them, there is no

> fast and easy answers to these questions or the issues

> they raise; and I

> am very wary of anyone who rattles off a few good

> sounding, even if well

> meaning, cliche's. What I do know is this - that

> without Astrology in my

> life, I'd probably be dead - or worse, life out a fate

> that would be

> worse than death. It is because of this that I am

> committed to helping

> Black men heal, with the knowledge I have learned from

> a variety of

> sources (and this includes Mr. Tyl). But it's an

> uphill struggle. It

> takes time, patience, persistence.

>

> It's just a damn shame that the Sistas have to linger

> in Limbo while we

> work the kinks out.

>

> Any comments, would sorely be appreciated.

>

> Salaam, Mu

>

> The End of Men - Clarification

>

> Posted by Mu'Min M. Bey on Thursday, 11 March 2004, at

> 3:46 p.m., in

> response to Re: The End of Men??? I think you're

> looking at this issue

> through the wrong lens..., posted by Liza on Thursday,

> 11 March 2004, at

> 1:12 p.m.

>

> Hello All,

>

> I think it is necessary to attempt to clarify my

> position, and reasoning

> for posting my thoughts earlier this morning.

>

> My reason for posting those thoughts was in response

> to a number of

> female members of this very Forum, who had responded

> to some commentary

> I made on another thread, dealing with Vocational

> astrology. They were

> very interested in what I had to say about the

> " spillover " effect in

> terms of career and employment, and how it can effect

> relationship

> (marriage) and family cohesion. While my comments were

> made through a

> lens that admittedly suggested the experience of a

> particular group of

> people, these women - NONE of them coming from this

> group - ALL reported

> similiar situations.

>

> In other words, I was talking about African Americans,

> and the women who

> contacted me where all White.

>

> If it were just one or two women who contacted me with

> these comments

> and concerns, I would have taken it as just personal

> observations. But

> when I hear 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 women, who in all

> likelihood don't know each

> other very well, then I'm apt to think that there just

> may be something

> there. So I looked into one of the piles of research

> that I have on my

> desk and in my folders.

>

> That lead me to mention my " Changing Face of the 9th

> House " post, where

> I clearly stated that, based on studies that have been

> conducted over

> the past two decades, that college participation and

> graduation rates

> have significantly dropped off among males of ALL

> racial and ethnic

> groups (in America). These studies are easily

> available on the Internet,

> and one of my sources comes from a book I have

> mentioned in this Forum,

> entitled Two Nations, by Andrew Hacker. But by no

> means, is his book (or

> the studies he cites) the end-all, be-all; there are

> other studies, many

> of them, that also point in the same direction.

>

> Up to this point, I have never thought to consider

> this issue from a

> more panoramic view, because quite simply, my pool of

> White clients, of

> either gender, is considerably smaller than my African

> American and

> Indian/foriegn pools. Therefore, until these women

> contacted me

> yesterday, I had considerable " blindspots " in this

> respect. Their

> experiences, along with the studies I have mentioned,

> were an eye-opener

> for me - and hopefully and eye-opener for every one of

> you.

>

> While it is true that there are solutions and options

> for almost any

> given situation, it is also true that we should always

> consider the

> times in which we live, and to do so from a point of

> honesty, which

> sometimes can hurt. I think it is safe to say that the

> situation I speak

> to here was not the case even 20 years ago, definitely

> not 40 years ago

> - within living memory of many here in this Forum.

> These circumstances,

> coming at a time when the very concept of marriage and

> relationship are

> being challenged in very fundamental ways (the Gay

> Marriage Controversey

> and Debate), puts these other concerns on our plate as

> astrologers in

> very strong and nuanced ways. I know it does for me.

>

> I have a client - a Black lady client - who is in her

> mid-30s. She went

> to and graduated from a very prominent Southern

> university, graduated

> with honors, and now owns/runs a chain of very

> successful businesses.

> About 3 years ago, she was among a considerable number

> of my female

> clients who were having the most difficult time

> finding suitable mates,

> and at the time, I was much more cocky (if you can

> beleive that, LOL)

> and self-assured about the situation, thinking that

> fundamental

> differences such as formal educational values vs. no

> such thing, etc.,

> wouldn't make that much of a difference. As I soon

> learned from her and

> those other lady clients, I was wrong. At the very

> least, my views

> needed a strong " re-think " . For this woman, having

> someone who was " on

> her level " was very important, and she had gone the

> " opposites attract "

> route - and it didn't work. It was a very interesting,

> yet difficult,

> situation.

>

> The last time I spoke with this lady was this time

> last year; she had

> met a man who was " on her level " (meaning, similar

> educational

> background, values, earning potential, etc.). The only

> thing was, he was

> a continental African - which was great for her, but

> which also raised

> some other questions in terms of potential solutions.

> Since Africans who

> emigrate here, for the most part, tend to have such

> qualifications,

> insofar as Black women are concerned who are in that

> situation, that

> could be an option. Indeed, I have seen other ladies

> exercise this

> option as well. Time will tell as to whether the

> cultural differences

> can be ameliorated or not (something I have heard

> about from some of

> these women; it seems as if they have jumped out of

> the frying pan and

> into the fire).

>

> Over the past 5 years, I have done the most intense

> study into this

> question being raised here. I have talked to literally

> thousands of

> women (admittedly, Black women; again, the ladies in

> this Forum have

> forced another " re-think " ), with so many of them

> saying the same things

> the lady I am referring to above said. While there is

> always something

> to be said for internal demons and the like, and they

> cannot be

> underestimated, there is also something to be said for

> 50,000 Frenchmen

> not being wrong. Again, the studies, conducted by

> people who in all

> likelihood don't know me and probably would debunk

> Astrology, speaks for

> itself.

>

> Philadelphia, where I live, is a college town. It is

> home to Temple

> University, University of Pennsylvania, LaSalle

> College, Saint Joseph's

> University (Go Hawks!) and many more such schools.

> During the same

> period I was conducting my informal interviews with

> women, I also took

> it upon myself to puruse the campuses, just to

> " eyeball " the male

> populations. I have to say, that one can see a

> difference, just walking

> the campus grounds of any of these schools (the more

> well known and

> larger ones being mentioned here). The male

> populations are getting

> smaller.

>

> This has to put some level of strain on already

> existing relationships,

> and the relationship potential of both the men and

> women here, although

> without a doubt, it is with those women these concerns

> are likely to be

> the strongest. In fact, in the book I made mention of

> earlier, " Brothers

> on the Mend " , the author makes special note of these

> new circumstances.

> Again, this is something that can be applied accross

> the board as the

> ladies who have contacted me have pointed out. After

> all, Candace

> Bergen, nor the lady who stars on the TV show " The

> Practice " do not

> resemble Queen Latifah.

>

> Relationships remains the Number One concern on the

> minds of those who

> will consult any one of us. My thoughts this morning,

> and now, are an

> attempt to examine a new set of circumstances that can

> effect those

> concerns in major ways - especially in Times to Come.

>

> I hope I have clarified my position and the method of

> my madness.

>

> Salaam, Mu

>

>

> =====

> Mu'Min M. Bey

> Western and Vedic Astrologer

> Check out my site:

> muminbey.tripod.com

> " The Future of Astrology, is Here... "

> AOL IM Screen Name: JediMu

> Join the Pan Astrological Forum, Where Freedom in Astrological

Thought Lives! Just send a blank email to panastroforum-

@t...

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Messenger.

> http://messenger./