2-Amit, INder, Rahul & All, Mark Kincaid re. Fate vs Free Will-East VS West Approach! 10/21

[Guest guest]

Dear Friends and Members:

 

Here's a kind of conclusion to this question of freedom vs. determinism...

 

enjoy

 

 

Mark K.

 

 

 

 

Dear Amit, Inder, Rahul, & All:

 

Our reflections on 'free will & determinism', I believe, are important because they really do go to the very heart of our incarnations.

 

If we believe we can change things, that very powerfully helps us, 'change'.

If we don't believe, and instead believe 'more' in fate, then, that affects us, appropriately,

and we're found, 'waiting' more.

 

In Jyotish there are these two notions,.....'Doing'....and 'Waiting'....

 

Interestingly also, these two qualities, or activities, seem to correspond with Jupiter & Mars, for the 'doing',...and Saturn for the 'waiting' or patience.

 

Also, I've found an interesting correlation between which people believe more in Freedom or Determinism, and their various strengths of Jupiter or Saturn.

 

I know a number of individuals who have very strong preferences for determinism, and coincidently they have very dominant Saturns in their charts!

 

Also, the opposite is true. Those who tend to have more success in manifesting 'changes' and improvements in their lives, believe, more, in the possibility of 'freedom', and they, coincidently, tend to have stronger Jupiters, Mar's and Suns.

 

One friend of mine who has Sun & Saturn in her 12th house, and even only 1 degree apart, has had a very frustrating time, making changes and believing in herself, and therefore, fate and " Oh, we have no power to change " , attitude comes easily to her.

 

Looking at 'both' issues, Nature or God, has seemed to feel that 'both' qualities, 'doing' and 'non-doing', both, are important in life.

 

So it shouldn't be surprising to us if 'both' of these views are simultaneously 'right'!

 

The problem is our intellects have a hard time wrapping around this issue, because intellectually, it seems it's an 'either or' problem.

 

Either we're free or we're not.

 

The Truth may be closer to the simultaneously both reality, which may not thoroughly get resolved accept in Consciousness.

 

Because in Consciousness, there is a point to where both qualities, are 'transcended', and the Oneness of life, dominates. In this 'oneness' Truth dawns, and it isn't just on an intellectual level.

 

Let's say for a moment that 'both' freedom and determinism exist.

 

We can see both, maybe they both do exist, even if it's hard for us to understand 'how' they both could.

 

To me, the realities of Saturnian 'determinism' and lack of freedom, is real and yet, we might be able to use this to motivate ourselves.

 

We see countless examples of 'determinism' or 'causality'.

 

We plant a seed, and a very predictable 'tree' pops up.

 

Yes, we do have the freedom to graft that seed, and then a new seed or hybrid, can be made, but the principle is still the same, the future, still, pops up from the past.

 

I also think it's very helpful to accept the fact that in many ways, we don't have a lot of freedom in life.

 

Those who are obviously 'addicted' to things, foods, repeating certain mental and physical patterns, and those with strong compulsions,.... certainly, would argue for 'bondage'.

 

But, they also have a strong wish and hope to get out of their 'binding' predicaments, hence the belief in growth of freedom.

 

I loved the movie Matrix, where Morpheus told Neo, he was completely in prison. " This world is not real. You are dreaming this world, and reality is far from what you think it is. "

 

This movie is very annalogous to 'life'.

 

We may enjoy some freedoms and some binding situations, but ultimately, we are still 'slaves' to our very times, and local places, and even states of consciousness.

 

There are some who put it this way.

 

There is only one true freedom, and that's in the nature of spirit, soul or consciousness, itself.

 

In other words, though we may argue over this or that, 'relative, freedom or bondage';

in truth....

if our very existence, is a kind of bondage....then we may need to try and think, completely beyond the 'box' so to speak....

 

to come and find another kind of freedom....

 

 

When we close the eyes, and the mind or heart, how ever you want to think about it.... enters into quieter and quieter, levels of silence....

a time comes, where all manners of activity, and objects of attention, slip away.

 

In those moments, there comes the direct experience of pure awareness.

 

This 'state' of awareness, is the source of all thoughts, and when we turn inward, and fathom that deep reality, we stir within us, the source of all freedoms and boundries.

 

Also what happens as we enliven this 'state of pure consciousness', within, we interestingly enough, find ourselves more competent, more clear, and more successful at fulfilling our desires.

 

This immediately, brings more of a sense of freedom and lack of restriction and frustration then we did before.

 

As this experience deepens we not only grow in this delightful, fundamental experience of inner freedom, but, we also grow in this ability of manifesting change, in the outer.

 

 

 

In future discussions I think it might be fun, to look exactly at how the Ved, itself, sees freedom and determinism.

 

The Ved is full of the Philosophy of Enlightenment and how it's the only real freedom.

 

But, so many of the different Vedic disciplines or sciences, have as their focus the liberation of particular problems or focus in life, as well.

 

 

Sincerely,

 

 

Mark Kincaid

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

" rahul_10uday " <rahul_10uday

 

Thu, 21 Oct 2004 10:36:14 -0000

 

Fate(Advaita) VS Free Will(Dvaita) -East VS West Approach!

 

 

 

The discussion abt fate & freewill never ends,anyone who is serious

in learning astrology eventually has to grapple with questions

regarding fate and free will. Is our fate linked adamantly to our

moment of birth or is there some wiggle room for free will? If so,

how much?

 

Obviously, astrologers can predict events, which proves there is some

element of fate at work. But at other times predictions fail. This

may either be

1.a reflection on the astrologer's skill level,

2.the accuracy of the predictive system itself

3.there really is the elusive power of free will at play

 

the West, feel very uncomfortable with the idea of fate or destiny

and relish with free will. However, in India it's much

different,it's not uncommon to hear someone resign themselves to a

situation by simply saying " this is just my fate. "

 

However, while on the surface it may appear that Western attitude is

the wiser of the two, After all, how " free " really is our free will

 

when we're limited by our past conditioning? Usually, we're such

creatures of habit that we can't even follow through with our new

year's resolutions of past . Our habits are often so difficult to

change. On the other hand, the attitude of resigning ourselves to our

fate could reflect a level of acceptance and trust that could be

considered very wise.

 

Due to the differences of cultural conditioning, generally the

astrologers of India tend towards a fate orientation, while the

astrologers in the West tends toward a free will orientation. And

it's very easy to err on one side or the other

 

However, there may be exceptions like, In some cases, telling a

client honestly that they're entering a difficult period could help

them " surrender " and come to acceptance of their situation, which

could be a positive relief if they've made continued effort to

improve their situation to no avail,Like if u try hard for material

fullfillments in effected(bad) saturn period ,that much hard saturn

will come at u?

 

 

The path of action, represents " Dvaita " or dualism and is generally a

proponent of a free will orientation followed by modern seer and

proponent of dvaita Paramahansa Yogananda.

 

The path of surrender or non-action, represents " Advaita " or non-

dualism and is generally a proponent of fate orientation followed by

modern seer and proponent of advaita Ramana Maharshi

 

Both of the above conviction command respect in their respective

schools of thought

 

Hope the disussion continues?

Rahul

 

 

 

 

 

 

~! LIFE MEANS STRUGGLE, THE FITTEST WINS SURVIVAL !~