1776 July 2nd & 4th/the State of India/Amit's Query

[Guest guest]

Hi Amit and thanks for carrying on the discusion. Here are some further points to consider. However, do brace yourself, because I have long considered the time moment of midnight 00:00:00 hours August 15, 1947 in New Delhi to mark objectively the time moment of the birth of the political nation of India. Which mundane advent is the birth of the sovereign State of India.

 

But first a word on nationhood, as such. The use of the concept of the nation in mundane astrology is derived in large part from the political science of the concept. That mundane astrologers have found agreement with political scientists in the use of this concept is largely because astrologers have found over countless generations that the concept shows predictive results. Not clairvoyant predictions, of course, but significant events subsequent to a birth moment can be rationally historically accounted for with a remarkable degree of precision in a reckoning of the originary horoscope, and in charting (forecasting) the future's course.

 

Nationhood ought not be confused, as it too often is, with the societal/cultural unity of a nation. On this societal/cultural basis one may view the reality of daily life on the Subcontinent as one of many nations within the polity of India. So too in appreciating U.S.A. nationhood. America as a societal/cultural phenomenon ante-dates the birth of the U.S.A. The Boyd Chart for July 6, 1775 is a good example of an American horoscope, depicting a significant event in colonial history, but because it cannot be of the U.S.A. in terms of the concepts political science and history, the Boyd Chart is not "a" U.S.A. chart, because there was no U.S.A. (United States) before July 2, 1776. However, by these same considerations it does allow astrologers to rationally debate the possibility of a U.S.A. birth moment on any of these subsequent historic event dates by which time these mundane entities, the American sovereign States did certainly

exist: July 2, 1776 and July 4, 1776 and November 15, 1777 and March 1, 1781 and September 17, 1787 and April 30, 1789. You already know what I believe to be the only candidate among this choice set.

 

So, for mundane astrology nationhood is synonymous with statehood, which is the political nation. And its crucial characteristic is evidenced in this political entity as a sovereign unity. The United States on July 2, 1776 became such a sovereign unity according to the concepts of political science, and as iportantly, on the unanimous judgments of professional historians of American history. Furthermore, an American political unity within the domain of the sovereign State of the Kingdom of Great Britain had been in existence previously to July 1776 by virtue of a pre-existing "union" of 13 of the 26 British Colonies in North America beginning on October 20, 1774. The advent of the U.S.A. sovereign birth was that of 13 politically united Colonies become united sovereign States on July 2, 1776. Hence, the advent of this sovereign unity: the United States.

 

To close for now, I rather see that famous radio broadcast by India's Founding Father, J. Nehru, as the equivalent of a non-enacting Declaration of Independence, its significance as crucially related but apart from the crucial fact of the precise birth moment of the sovereign State of India, which, along with the historical scholarship, I maintain is from the first moment of August 15, 1947.

 

Regards, John

 

amit_patnaik6 <amit_patnaik6 wrote:

Hello John,Excellent explanation and many thanks, I see what you are saying.but for the reasons of disucssion, i would like to ask your opinion about the following.The birth of democracy or a democratic country is not only a consumate resolution on part of the representative of the people, but also, the people themself and the moment of the birth of the country could also be an act which symbolizes the interface where the act of resolution is passed on to people.Like say India, the Speech by J. Nehru to the People in delhi and the whole nation on radio symbolizes the act of resolution on part of the leaders of india and british which i am sure was done much before that.That is the birth chart time of present India.Because the Leader of the People, primarly Jinnah of the Muslim league and Nehru for Congress accepted

Prime-minister Atlee's plan of an independent but divided India on the 3rd of June 1947, presented by Lord Mountbatten.http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebitesize/history/india/partitionrev2.shtmlbut the present India Chart well explains the 12:00 Midnight/Morning of the the 14th/15th of Aug 1947.Similar reasoning when applied to US could well mean 4th of July, when the resolution was passed to be communicated to the people affirmatively.According to your historical knowledge, what time frame would you put that on the 4th of July.Thanks and Warm regards.AmitSAMVA , JohnTWB <jtwbjakarta> wrote:> > Hi Amit & Jorge> KEY WORDS: "Passed" and "Resolved". Both signify agreement duly reached by vote: as in repeated used in the minutes of the sessions of "agreed to, Passed" or

"agreed to, Resolved". If "Passed", the voted agreement does not yet have finality; finality would then come with subsequent ratification by the authorizing Colonies (States from July 2). If "Resolved", this voted agreement makes it final, as in legally declared and with effect in each of the vote-authorizing States. [in the Journals of Congress: "Resolved" is always italicized for the added emphasis, denoting finality]. Then after, routinely, the office of the secretary prepared copies of each Resolve for distribution to the 13 Colonies (later States). It was for notification purposes only, not requiring ratifying follow-up.> During the first week of July 1776, there was only one major Resolved, agreed to; which enactment had public consequence on the question of Independence. The voted resolve declaring independence and making the United Colonies, at once, United States, on July 2. By contrast, A DECLARATION of July 4th

was only "Passed", not "Resolved". To repeat, the one and only relevant "Resolved" that week was the declaration of independence itself on the afternoon of July 2, 1776. That "Resolved" was the legal declaration, legal for each of the 13 States pursuant to the prior written authorizing instructions empowering the unit vote of each Colony to the Resolution. The instructions were conditional: words to the effect: "If the sentiment of the committee of the whole is UNANIMOUSLY for Independence, you may so vote, or you are to so vote, and thereby declare independence.> The rolling confusions in later histories is as clear as it is unfortunate for astrologers trying to get at the time moment precision of events. It goes like this:..a State Paper, dated July 4, 1776, entitled: "A DECLARATION" incorporates the July 2, 1776 declaration of independence ("lower case") in the ultimate paragraph of this July 4th text. Of paramount

importance: A DECLARATION is not an enacting document (it was "Passed", not "Resolved"), it is a reporting document in the form of a political manifesto. It so turned out, in the figurative end, to become a colossal error not to indicate in the ultimate paragraph of A DECLARATION that independence was declared with legal effect on July 2 (And no doubt all this was much further exacerbated on July 4th by Mercury retrograding in the sidereal 4th degree of Cancer, as well on a numerological 4th day). Later on, in order to heap more confusion on confusion, Congress chose to "re-entitle" the document, A DECLARATION, thus creating what> amounts to the Second, and ever since, Official edition; so it now reads THE UNANIMOUS DECLARATION OF THE THIRTEEN UNITED STATES. This is the document archived in Washington D.C. This Second title and A DECLARATION are the only two legal titles of record during that Era. The so-called, then

since made official title for modernity, DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE, is the one title the actual two documents never knew.> A question for me: Since A DECLARATION was "Passed, ageed to", not "Resolved, agreed to", since as a "Passed" document it wasn't yet with legal effect.... was it accordingly then later ratified ? Answer: YES. But, again, not to ratify the "Resolved" of July 2, but the "Passed" of July 4th; ie, Jefferson's Text was ratified, not the prior official enactment of the (lower case) declaration of independence.

> A DECLARATION, Jefferson's manifesto, was duly ratified by State legislatures on these following dates in 1776: > New York: July 09; New Hampshire: July 16; New Jersey: July 17; Virginia: July 20; Delaware: July 22; North Carolina: July 24; Pennsylvania: July 25; Rhode Island: July 25; Georgia: August 10; Maryland: August 17; Massachusetts: August 28; Connecticut: October 10; South Carolina: October

15. > [sOURCES: "The Declaration of Independence, Its History", by John H. Hazelton, 1906; (Delaware date) "A Gentleman As Well As A Whig, Caesar Rodney" by Jane H. Scott, 2000. Please note that this list of 13 dates completes John H.Hazelton's work of 99 years ago, 1906; Hazelton only found 12; he couldn't locate the Delaware date. This e-mail is the first time ever that anyone is seeing, in print, the complete list of the

13 ratification dates, thanks to Delaware historian Jane Scott., whose book, by the way, features the story of the "afternoon vote" on July 2nd] > If you now refer directly to the text of the Journal entry of July 2nd, it's easy to sort out. Following the Congressional vote of "Resolved" [of the Lee resolution declaring independence], the delegates resolved themselves [ went back into] a committee-of-the-whole posture ["resolved itself" is, of course, a different verb than simply "Resolved"]. The committee.. quote: "have had under consideration the Declaration to them referred" unquote ... This is in the context of considering the draft of Jefferson's A DECLARATION, the political manifesto; Nothing more. Once independence was declared by enacted resolve of the whole Congress, it was then time to start the final editing of Jefferson's renowned text, the political manifesto. It was now propaganda preparation time

for some. As for the final line in the Journal excerpt [pasted here below]. just keep in mind that the Journals were severely edited in 1777 before general publication. By then Jefferson's A DECLARATION had already> morphed to become the referred to as the iconic DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE. It does not imply that Independence was still in the offing, because that had been settled already. > Regards, John> Journals of Congress: July 2,

1776> The Congress resumed the consideration of the resolution agreed to by and reported from the committee of the whole; and the same being read, was agreed to as follows:> Resolved, That these United Colonies are, and, of right, ought to be, Free and Independent States; that they are absolved from all allegiance to the British crown, and that all political connexion between them, and the state of Great Britain, is, and ought to be, totally dissolved.1> > [Note 1: 1 This report, in the writing of Charles Thomson. is in thePapers of the Continental Congress, No. 23, folio 17.]> > Agreeable to the order of the day, the Congress resolved itself into a committee of the whole; aand, after some time,a the president resumed the chair. Mr. [benjamin] Harrison reported, that the committee have had under consideration the declaration to them referred; but, not having had time to go through athe same,a

desired leave to sit again:> > Resolved, That this Congress will, to morrow [July 3], again resolve itself into a committee of the whole, to take into their farther consideration the declaration on independence.> > > amit_patnaik6 <amit_patnaik6> wrote:> Hi John and Jorge,> > I am looking at the information infront of me from various sources,> the "Lee Resolution for independence " was adopted on July 2nd 1776,> proposed on June 7th 1776,Drafted by mostly Jefferson between June> 11th and June 28th... put on the table June 28th 1776 friday.> > Source Library of Congress of the United States of America> > http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=lljc & fileName=005/lljc005.db & recNum=91 & itemLink=r%3Fammem%2Fhlaw%3A%40field%28DOCID%2B%40lit%28jc0051%29%29%230050001 & linkText=1>

> Read this graphic book "Journal of Continental congress" Volume 5,> > Page 504-505, July 1st 1776..."The Congress resolved...have under> consideration...and have agreed to the resolution, which they ordered> him to report....sit again The resolution agreed to by commitee of> the whole being read, the determination thereof was postponed, at the> request of a colony, till to morrow"....> [seems the resolution was agreed upon as in the concept of declaration> of independence but not the draft on the whole]> > Page 507, for July 2nd towards the end of the day... which ended> usually at 19:00 hrs.> "Resolved, that these United Colonies are....ought to be Free and> Indepenedent States; that they are absolved from all allegiance to the> British crown....., totally dissolved" > "Agreeable to...that the committee have had under consideration

the> declaration to them referred; but not having had time to go through> ...leave to sit again"> [seems they adopted the draft as a commitee but not the draft on the> whole, same as above but more resolute]> > If the whole decision was made on the 2nd July 1776, then the> Commitee should have finished it off on the 3rd of July itself. BUT> page 507-509 ,> Page 509 "Agreeable to the order of the day, the Congress...that the> committee , not having finished, desired leave to sit again."> [Not having finished what?, agreeing to the draft on the whole, the> 3rd of July was spend mostly on other resolution and order, why not> the most important one]> > Then almost the first thing they do from the morning hours of 4th of> July to the afternoon hours was adoption on the whole of the> declaration of independence. Page 509-515 and therein sign.>

> Why did they wait till 4th of July to declare and not the 3rd...if> they had adopted on the 2nd?> Was there any differences mitigated during the 3rd July session or> post session?> > Though the commitee adopted on the 2nd of July, there might have been> some apparent delibration in the consummate acceptance of the idealogy> and the draft.> > Please advice.> Amit> > > > > > > >