Is there something called as Free Will?

August 8, 2009

Dear Harshit / Tainted Blue ( What a name!)

The following is a very interesting and a very illuminating discussion . Have found this on a different internet group several months ago.

Hope you will find it useful and am sure you will share it with people who are also wanting to understand the conflict between free will and action .

Rajaram

Action or Destiny

If you have wondered whether action or destiny rule...the

following conversation explains the paradox very

well...read it when you have some time

The Riddle of Fate and Free-Will Solved

(A dialogue between His Holiness Shri Chandrashekhara

Bharati and a Disciple): [His Holiness was the Sringeri

Mathadhipati 1912-1954.]

H.H. : I hope you are pursuing your studies in the Vedanta

as usual

D. : Though not regularly, I do make some occasional study.

H.H. : In the course of your studies, you may have come

across many doubts.

D. : Yes, one doubt repeatedly comes up to my mind.

H.H. : What is it?

D. : It is the problem of the eternal conflict between fate

and free-will.

What are their respective provinces and how can the

conflict be avoided?

H.H. : If presented in the way you have done it, the

problem would baffle even the highest of thinkers.

D. : What is wrong with my presentation I only stated the

problem and did not even explain how I find it to be a difficult one.

H.H. : Your difficulty arises in the very statement of the

problem.

D. : How?

H.H. : A conflict arises only if there are two things.

There can be no conflict if there is only one thing.

D. : But here there are two things, fate and free-will.

H.H. : Exacly. It is this assumption of yours that is

responsible for your problem.

D. : It is not my assumption at all. How can I ignore the

fact that the two things exist as independent factors, whether I grant

their existence or not?

H.H. : That is where you are wrong again.

D. : How?

H.H. : As a follower of our Sanatana Dharma, you must know

that fate is nothing extraneous to yourself, but only the sum total of

the results of your past actions.

As God is but the dispenser of the fruits of actions,

fate, representing those fruits, is not his creation but only yours.

Free-will is what you exercise when you act now.

D. : Still I do not see how they are not two distinct

things.

H.H. : Have it this way. Fate is past karma; free-will is

present karma.

Both are really one, that is, karma, though they may

differ in the matter of time. There can be no conflict when they are

really one.

D. : But the difference in time is a vital difference which

we cannot possibly overlook.

H.H. : I do not want you to overlook it, but only to study

it more deeply.

The present is before you and, by the exercise of free-will, you can

attempt to shape it.

The past is past and is therefore beyond your vision and

is rightly called adrishta, the unseen. You cannot reasonably

attempt to find out the relative strength of two things unless

both of them are before you. But, by our very definition, free-will,

the present karma, alone is before you and fate, the past karma, is

invisible.

Even if you see two wrestlers right in front of you, you

cannot decide about their relative strength. For, one may have

weight, the other agility; one muscles and the other tenacity; one the

benefit of practice and the other coolness of judgment and so on. We

can go on building arguments on arguments to conclude that a

particular wrestler will be the winner.

But experience shows that each of these qualifications may

fail at any time or may prove to be a disqualification. The

only practical method of determining their relative strength will be to

make them wrestle.

While this is so, how do you expect to find by means of

arguments a solution to the problem of the relative value

of fate and free-will when the former by its very nature is

unseen!

D. : Is there no way then of solving this problem?

H.H. : There is this way. The wrestlers must fight with

each other and prove which of them is the stronger.

D. : In other words, the problem of conflict will get

solved only at the end of the conflict. But at that time the problem will

have ceased to have any practical significance.

H.H. : Not only so, it will cease to exist.

D. : That is, before the conflict begins, the problem is

incapable of solution; and, after the conflict ends, it is no longer

necessary to find a solution.

H.H. : Just so. In either case, it is profitless to embark

on the enquiry as to the relative stregth of fate and free-will.

A Guide

D. : Does Yor Holiness then mean to say that we must resign

ourselves to Fate?

H.H. : Certainly not. On the other hand, you must devote

yourself to free- will.

D. : How can that be?

H.H. : Fate, as I told you, is the resultant of the past

exercise of your free-will. By exercising your free-will in the past,

you brought on the resultant fate.

By exercising your free-will in the present, I want you to wipe

out your past record if it hurts you, or to add to it if

you find it enjoyable.

In any case whether for acquiring more happiness or for

reducing Misery you have to exercise your free-will in the present.

D. : But the exercise of free-will however well-directed,

very often fails to secure the desired result, as fate steps in and

nullifies the action of free-will.

H.H. : You are again ignoring our definition of fate. It is

not an extraneous and a new thing which steps in to nullify your

free-will.

On the other hand, it is already in yourself.

D. : It may be so, but its existence is felt only when it

comes into conflict with free-will. How can we possibly wipe out the

past record when we do not know nor have the means of knowing

what it is

H.H. : Except to a very few highly advanced souls, the past

certainly remains unknown. But even our ignorance of it is very

often an advantage to us.

For, if we happen to know all the results we have accumulated

by our actions in this and our past lives, we will be so

much shocked as to give up in despair any attempt to overcome

or mitigate them. Even in this life, forgetfulnes is a boon which the

merciful God has been pleased to bestow on us, so that we may not

be burdened at any moment with a recollection of all that has happened

in the past.

Similarly, the divine spark in us is ever bright with hope and

makes it possible for us to confidently exercise our free-will. It

is not for us to belittle the significance of these two boons--

forgetfulness of the past and hope for the future.

D. : Our ignorance of the past may be useful in not

deterring the exercise of the free-will, and hope may stimulate that

exercise.

All the same, it cannot be denied that fate very often does present a

formidable obstacle in the way of such exercise.

H.H. : It is not quite correct to say that fate places

obstacles in the way of free-will. On the other hand, by seeming to oppose

our

efforts, it tells us what is the extent of free-will that is

necessary now to bear fruit.

Ordinarily for the purpose of securing a single benefit, a particular

activity is prescribed; but we do not know how intensively or how

repeatedly

that activity has to be pursued or pesisted in.

If we do not succed at the very first attempt, we can easily deduce that

in the past we have exercised our free-will just in the opposite direction,

that the resultant of that past activity has first to be eliminated and

that our present effort must be proportionate to that past activity.

Thus, the obstacle which fate seems to offer is just the gauge

by which we have to guide our present activities.

D. : The obstacle is seen only after the exercise of our free-will; how

can that help us to guide our activities at the start?

H.H. : It need not guide us at the start. At the start, you

must not be obsessed at all with the idea that there will be any

obstacle in your way.

Start with boundless hope and with the presumption that there

is nothing in the way of your exercising the free-will.

If you do not succeed, tell yourself then that there has been

in the past a counter-influence brought on by yourself by

exercising your free-will in the other direction and, therefore, you

must now exercise your free-will with re-doubled vigor and

persistence to achieve your object.

Tell yourself that, inasmuch as the seeming obstacle is of

your own making, it is certainly within your competence to

overcome it.

If you do not succeed even after this renewed effort,

there can be absolutely no justification for despair, for fate being

but a creature of your free-will can never be stronger than your

free-will.

Your failure only means that your present exercise of free-will

is not sufficient to counteract the result of the past exercise of it.

In other words, there is no question of a relative proportion

between fate and free-will as distinct factors in life.

The relative proportion is only as between the intensity of our past

action and the intensity of our present action.

D. : But even so, the relative intensity can be realised

only at the end of our present effort in a particular direction.

H.H. : It is always so in the case of everything which is

adrishta or unseen. Take, for example, a nail driven into a wooden

pillar. When you see it for the first time, you actually see, say, an

inch of it projecting out of the pillar. The rest of it has gone into

the wood and you cannot now see what exact length of the nail is

imbedded in the wood. That length, therefore, is unseen or adrishta,

so far as you are concerned. Beautifully varnished as the pillar is,

you do not know what is the composition of the wood in which the

nail is driven. That also is unseen or adrishta.

Now, suppose you want to pull that nail out, can you tell me

how many pulls will be necessary and how powerful each pull has to

be

D. : How can I? The number and the intensity of the pulls

will depend upon the length which has gone into the wood.

H.H. : Certainly so. And the length which has gone into the

wood is not arbitrary, but depended upon the number of strokes which

drove it in and the intensity of each of such strokes and the

resistance which the wood offered to them.

D. : It is so.

H.H. : The number and intensity of the pulls needed to take

out the nail depend therefore upon the number and intensity of the

strokes which drove it in.

D. : Yes.

H.H. : But the strokes that drove in the nail are now

unseen and unseeable.

They relate to the past and are adrishta.

D. : Yes.

H.H. : Do we stop from pulling out the nail simply because

we happen to be ignorant of the length of the nail in the wood or of the

number and intensity of the strokes which drove it in Or, do we

persist in pulling it out by increasing our effort

D. : Certainly, as practical men we adopt the latter course.

H.H. : Adopt the same course in every effort of yours.

Exert yourself as much as you can. Your will must succeed in the end.

Function of Shastras:

D. : But there certainly are many things which are impossible to attain

even after the utmost exertion.

H.H. : There you are mistaken. There is nothing which is really

unattainable. A thing, however, may be unattainable to us at the

particular stage at which we are, or with the> qualifications that we

possess.

The attainability or otherwise of a particular thing is thus

not an absolute characteristic of that thing but is

relative and proportionate to our capacity to attain it.

D. : The success or failure of an effort can be known

definitely only at the end. How are we then to know beforehand whether with

our present capacity we may or may not exert ourselves to attain a

particular object, and whether it is the right kind of exertion for

the attainment of that object?

H.H. : Your question is certainly a pertinent one. The whole aim of our

Dharma Shastras is to give a detailed answer to your question.

Religion does not fetter man's free-will. It leaves

him quite free to act, but tells him at the same time what is good

for him and what is not.

The resposibility is entirely and solely his. He cannot escape it by

blaming fate, for fate is of his own making, nor by blaming God, for

he is but the dispenser of fruits in accordance with the merits of

actions. You are the master of your own destiny. It is for you to

make it, to better it or to mar it. This is your privilege. This is

your responsibility.

D. : I quite realise this. But often it so happens that I am not really

master of myself. I know, for instance, quite well that a particular

act is wrong; at the same time, I feel impelled to do it.

Similarly, I know that another act is right; at the same time,

however, I feel powerless to do it. It seems that there is some power

which is able to control or defy my free-will. So long as that power is

potent, how can I be called the master of my own destiny Whatis

that power but fate

H.H. : You are evidently confusing together two distinct things. Fate is a

thing quite different from the other one which you call a power.

Suppose you handle an instrument for the first time. You

will do it very clumsily and with great effort.

The next time, however, you use it, you will do so less

clumsily and with less effort. With repeated uses, you

will have learnt to use it easily and without any effort. That is,

the facility and ease with which you use a particular thing increase

with the number of times you use it.

The first time a man steals, he does so with great effort and

much fear; the next time both his effort and fear are much less. As

opportunities increase, stealing will become a normal habit with him

and will require no effort at all. This habit will generate in him a

tendency to steal even when there is no necessity to steal. It is

this tendency which goes by the name vasana. The power which makes

you act as if against your will is only the vasana which itself is of

your own making. This is not fate.

The punishment or reward, in the shape of pain or pleasure,which is the

inevitable consequence of an act, good or bad, is alone the province of

fate or destiny.

The vasana which the doing of an act leaves behind in the mind

in the shape of a taste, a greater facility or a greater tendency for

doing the same act once again, is quite a different thing.

It may be that the punishment or the reward of the past act is, in

ordinary circumstances, unavoidable, if there is no counter-effort;

but the vasana can be easily handled if only we exercise our

free-will correctly.

D. : But the number of vasanas or tendencies that rule our

hearts are endless. How can we possibly control them?

H.H. : The essential nature of a vasana is to seek

expression in outward acts. This characteristic is common to all vasanas,

good and bad.

The stream of vasanas, the vasana sarit, as it is called, has two

currents, the good and the bad.

If you try to dam up the entire stream, there mey be

danger.

The Shastras, therefore, do not ask you to attempt that. On the

other hand, they ask you to submit yourself to be led by the good

vasana current and to resist being led away by the bad vasana

current.

When you know that a particular vasana is rising up in your

mind, you cannot possibly say that you are at its mercy.

You have your wits about you and the responsibility of deciding

whether you will encourage it or not is entirely yours.

The Shastras ennciate in detail what vasanas are good and

have to be encouraged and what vasanas are bad and have to

be overcome.

When, by dint of practice, you have made all your vasanas

good and practically eliminated the charge of any bad vasanas

leading you astray, the Shastras take upon themselves the

function of teaching you how to free your free-will even from the

need of being led by good vasanas.

You will gradually be led on to a stage when your free-will

be entirely free from any sort of coloring due to any vasanas.

At that stage, your mind will be pure as crystal and all motive for

particular action will cease to be. Freedom from the results of

particular actions is an inevitable consequence. Both fate and

vasana disappear. There is freedom for ever more and that

freedom is called Moksha.

http://www.advaita- vedanta.org/ articles/ The_Riddle_ of_Fate_and_ Free.htm

--- On Sun, 8/2/09, Harshit Bapna <hrbapna wrote:Harshit Bapna <hrbapnaRe: Is there something called as "Free Will"? Date: Sunday, August 2, 2009, 10:32 PM

Hi Taintedblue,

I myself is facing this issue of free will for a long time. I have discussed this issue with many learned people.

I am still struggling to get a convincing reply.

Now I feel there are some things which will remain uncertain and cannot be fully solved.

My View:

I believe in GOD. I feel GOD would have given us some free will at some points in life. We can excercise the free will only at some points in life and most of our life is already defined .

I cannot imagine that there is absolutely no free will otherwise we will be just characters in a play and GOD will not be The GOD but a mere powerfull spectator enjoying the play (enjoying the travesties & sufferings of human life).

These are difficult concepts to think or understand and everyone would have their own view. But you should find solace that you are not the only one.

There are many like us who are thinking on those lines. I feel fortunate that God has given us that power.

--harshit

On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 2:05 AM, taintedblue84 <taintedblue84@ .in> wrote:

Hey,I think a question that pops up regularly is that is there something called as free will? Many people might say yes some might say maybe but my belief is that if there is something called as Naadi there cannot be freewill. I will put up a small case study out of my life which might strengthen my opinion.

The story goes back to around 2002. This was the time i was just out of college and was struck by the smaller recession. (9/11 WTC). So out of desperation i went and met an astrologer in Delhi. She is the person who is responsible for building my faith in Astrology. Now she predicted that in the next year i would be perusing my Post graduation either in a city X in India or a Country Y. Now very surprisingly for me, the next year I did get admission to exactly 2 universities in the above mentioned cities. Finally due to some circumstances and some reasoning i choose the Indian city for my Post Graduation.

Then again now in the year 2009, I did visit a Naadi astrologer. Now his leaves suggested that i would have completed my PG from India and would be working in the computers field. Now my questions to the supporters of free will

1) Where is the free will? What i thought in 2003 to be a decision taken by my free will actually happened to be a event already written for me.2) Assuming I had decided to Go to the Country Y, I think this question doesn't even make sense. does it? I mean such a decision can transform your entire life. Does the Naadi leaves have the power to cater to such drastic Free will decisions. I mean to say my career path, my domain everything would have been different. I am just talking about the career related angle here. I am quite sure my personal life would also have been very different had i thought otherwise.

3) And as somebody has written below what about the ripple effect caused by the so called free-will decisions taken by others. I think that's where i end. This has been a long mail. For all those who have reached till here thanks for reading patiently. Do take some time to reply back.

Thanks and Regards

-- -- Harshit Bapna

August 8, 2009

Hi Rajaram,

I like the way the guru have tried to give an explaination of this tough question.

But I have few doubts in this explaination.

1) In the exceprt from your mail can you explain that the coloured part. see below

2) Also If my past actions are determining what life I will leave in this birth.

How come Nadi Astrology tries to give information about my future births since they will be dependent on my deeds in this birth?

D. : In other words, the problem of conflict will get solved only at the

end of the conflict. But at that time the problem will have ceased to

have any practical significance.

H.H. : Not only so, it will cease to exist.

D. : That is, before the conflict begins, the problem is incapable of

solution; and, after the conflict ends, it is no longer necessary to

find a solution.

H.H. : Just so. In either case, it is profitless to embark on the enquiry

as to the relative stregth of fate and free-will.

On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 12:13 PM, Rajaram Yanamandra <rajaram.yanamandra wrote:

Dear Harshit / Tainted Blue ( What a name!)

The following is a very interesting and a very illuminating discussion . Have found this on a different internet group several months ago.

Hope you will find it useful and am sure you will share it with people who are also wanting to understand the conflict between free will and action .

Rajaram

Action or Destiny

Action or DestinyIf you have wondered whether action or destiny rule...thefollowing conversation explains the paradox verywell...read it when you have some timeThe Riddle of Fate and Free-Will Solved

(A dialogue between His Holiness Shri ChandrashekharaBharati and a Disciple): [His Holiness was the SringeriMathadhipati 1912-1954.]H.H. : I hope you are pursuing your studies in the Vedantaas usual

D. : Though not regularly, I do make some occasional study.H.H. : In the course of your studies, you may have comeacross many doubts.D. : Yes, one doubt repeatedly comes up to my mind.H.H. : What is it?

D. : It is the problem of the eternal conflict between fateand free-will.What are their respective provinces and how can theconflict be avoided?H.H. : If presented in the way you have done it, the

problem would baffle even the highest of thinkers.D. : What is wrong with my presentation I only stated theproblem and did not even explain how I find it to be a difficult one.H.H. : Your difficulty arises in the very statement of the

problem.D. : How?H.H. : A conflict arises only if there are two things.There can be no conflict if there is only one thing.D. : But here there are two things, fate and free-will.H.H. : Exacly. It is this assumption of yours that is

responsible for your problem.D. : It is not my assumption at all. How can I ignore thefact that the two things exist as independent factors, whether I granttheir existence or not?H.H. : That is where you are wrong again.

D. : How?H.H. : As a follower of our Sanatana Dharma, you must knowthat fate is nothing extraneous to yourself, but only the sum total ofthe results of your past actions.As God is but the dispenser of the fruits of actions,

fate, representing those fruits, is not his creation but only yours.Free-will is what you exercise when you act now.D. : Still I do not see how they are not two distinctthings.H.H. : Have it this way. Fate is past karma; free-will is

present karma.Both are really one, that is, karma, though they maydiffer in the matter of time. There can be no conflict when they arereally one.D. : But the difference in time is a vital difference which

we cannot possibly overlook.H.H. : I do not want you to overlook it, but only to studyit more deeply.The present is before you and, by the exercise of free-will, you canattempt to shape it.The past is past and is therefore beyond your vision and

is rightly called adrishta, the unseen. You cannot reasonablyattempt to find out the relative strength of two things unlessboth of them are before you. But, by our very definition, free-will,the present karma, alone is before you and fate, the past karma, is

invisible.Even if you see two wrestlers right in front of you, youcannot decide about their relative strength. For, one may haveweight, the other agility; one muscles and the other tenacity; one thebenefit of practice and the other coolness of judgment and so on. We

can go on building arguments on arguments to conclude that aparticular wrestler will be the winner.But experience shows that each of these qualifications mayfail at any time or may prove to be a disqualification. The

only practical method of determining their relative strength will be tomake them wrestle.While this is so, how do you expect to find by means ofarguments a solution to the problem of the relative value

of fate and free-will when the former by its very nature isunseen!D. : Is there no way then of solving this problem?H.H. : There is this way. The wrestlers must fight witheach other and prove which of them is the stronger.

D. : In other words, the problem of conflict will getsolved only at the end of the conflict. But at that time the problem willhave ceased to have any practical significance.H.H. : Not only so, it will cease to exist.

D. : That is, before the conflict begins, the problem isincapable of solution; and, after the conflict ends, it is no longernecessary to find a solution.H.H. : Just so. In either case, it is profitless to embark

on the enquiry as to the relative stregth of fate and free-will.A GuideD. : Does Yor Holiness then mean to say that we must resignourselves to Fate?H.H. : Certainly not. On the other hand, you must devote

yourself to free- will.D. : How can that be?H.H. : Fate, as I told you, is the resultant of the pastexercise of your free-will. By exercising your free-will in the past,you brought on the resultant fate.

By exercising your free-will in the present, I want you to wipeout your past record if it hurts you, or to add to it ifyou find it enjoyable.In any case whether for acquiring more happiness or forreducing Misery you have to exercise your free-will in the present.

D. : But the exercise of free-will however well-directed,very often fails to secure the desired result, as fate steps in andnullifies the action of free-will.H.H. : You are again ignoring our definition of fate. It is

not an extraneous and a new thing which steps in to nullify yourfree-will.On the other hand, it is already in yourself.D. : It may be so, but its existence is felt only when itcomes into conflict with free-will. How can we possibly wipe out the

past record when we do not know nor have the means of knowingwhat it isH.H. : Except to a very few highly advanced souls, the pastcertainly remains unknown. But even our ignorance of it is veryoften an advantage to us.

For, if we happen to know all the results we have accumulatedby our actions in this and our past lives, we will be somuch shocked as to give up in despair any attempt to overcomeor mitigate them. Even in this life, forgetfulnes is a boon which the

merciful God has been pleased to bestow on us, so that we may notbe burdened at any moment with a recollection of all that has happenedin the past.Similarly, the divine spark in us is ever bright with hope and

makes it possible for us to confidently exercise our free-will. Itis not for us to belittle the significance of these two boons--forgetfulness of the past and hope for the future.D. : Our ignorance of the past may be useful in not

deterring the exercise of the free-will, and hope may stimulate thatexercise.All the same, it cannot be denied that fate very often does present aformidable obstacle in the way of such exercise.H.H. : It is not quite correct to say that fate places

obstacles in the way of free-will. On the other hand, by seeming to opposeourefforts, it tells us what is the extent of free-will that isnecessary now to bear fruit.Ordinarily for the purpose of securing a single benefit, a particular

activity is prescribed; but we do not know how intensively or howrepeatedlythat activity has to be pursued or pesisted in.If we do not succed at the very first attempt, we can easily deduce thatin the past we have exercised our free-will just in the opposite direction,

that the resultant of that past activity has first to be eliminated andthat our present effort must be proportionate to that past activity.Thus, the obstacle which fate seems to offer is just the gaugeby which we have to guide our present activities.

D. : The obstacle is seen only after the exercise of our free-will; howcan that help us to guide our activities at the start?H.H. : It need not guide us at the start. At the start, youmust not be obsessed at all with the idea that there will be any

obstacle in your way.Start with boundless hope and with the presumption that thereis nothing in the way of your exercising the free-will.If you do not succeed, tell yourself then that there has beenin the past a counter-influence brought on by yourself by

exercising your free-will in the other direction and, therefore, youmust now exercise your free-will with re-doubled vigor andpersistence to achieve your object.Tell yourself that, inasmuch as the seeming obstacle is of

your own making, it is certainly within your competence toovercome it.If you do not succeed even after this renewed effort,there can be absolutely no justification for despair, for fate beingbut a creature of your free-will can never be stronger than your

free-will.Your failure only means that your present exercise of free-willis not sufficient to counteract the result of the past exercise of it.In other words, there is no question of a relative proportion

between fate and free-will as distinct factors in life.The relative proportion is only as between the intensity of our pastaction and the intensity of our present action.D. : But even so, the relative intensity can be realised

only at the end of our present effort in a particular direction.H.H. : It is always so in the case of everything which isadrishta or unseen. Take, for example, a nail driven into a woodenpillar. When you see it for the first time, you actually see, say, an

inch of it projecting out of the pillar. The rest of it has gone intothe wood and you cannot now see what exact length of the nail isimbedded in the wood. That length, therefore, is unseen or adrishta,so far as you are concerned. Beautifully varnished as the pillar is,

you do not know what is the composition of the wood in which thenail is driven. That also is unseen or adrishta.Now, suppose you want to pull that nail out, can you tell mehow many pulls will be necessary and how powerful each pull has to

beD. : How can I? The number and the intensity of the pullswill depend upon the length which has gone into the wood.H.H. : Certainly so. And the length which has gone into thewood is not arbitrary, but depended upon the number of strokes which

drove it in and the intensity of each of such strokes and theresistance which the wood offered to them.D. : It is so.H.H. : The number and intensity of the pulls needed to takeout the nail depend therefore upon the number and intensity of the

strokes which drove it in.D. : Yes.H.H. : But the strokes that drove in the nail are nowunseen and unseeable.They relate to the past and are adrishta.D. : Yes.H.H. : Do we stop from pulling out the nail simply because

we happen to be ignorant of the length of the nail in the wood or of thenumber and intensity of the strokes which drove it in Or, do wepersist in pulling it out by increasing our effortD. : Certainly, as practical men we adopt the latter course.

H.H. : Adopt the same course in every effort of yours.Exert yourself as much as you can. Your will must succeed in the end.Function of Shastras:D. : But there certainly are many things which are impossible to attain

even after the utmost exertion.H.H. : There you are mistaken. There is nothing which is reallyunattainable. A thing, however, may be unattainable to us at theparticular stage at which we are, or with the> qualifications that we

possess.The attainability or otherwise of a particular thing is thusnot an absolute characteristic of that thing but isrelative and proportionate to our capacity to attain it.D. : The success or failure of an effort can be known

definitely only at the end. How are we then to know beforehand whether withour present capacity we may or may not exert ourselves to attain aparticular object, and whether it is the right kind of exertion forthe attainment of that object?

H.H. : Your question is certainly a pertinent one. The whole aim of ourDharma Shastras is to give a detailed answer to your question.Religion does not fetter man's free-will. It leaveshim quite free to act, but tells him at the same time what is good

for him and what is not.The resposibility is entirely and solely his. He cannot escape it byblaming fate, for fate is of his own making, nor by blaming God, forhe is but the dispenser of fruits in accordance with the merits of

actions. You are the master of your own destiny. It is for you tomake it, to better it or to mar it. This is your privilege. This isyour responsibility.D. : I quite realise this. But often it so happens that I am not really

master of myself. I know, for instance, quite well that a particularact is wrong; at the same time, I feel impelled to do it.Similarly, I know that another act is right; at the same time,however, I feel powerless to do it. It seems that there is some power

which is able to control or defy my free-will. So long as that power ispotent, how can I be called the master of my own destiny Whatisthat power but fateH.H. : You are evidently confusing together two distinct things. Fate is a

thing quite different from the other one which you call a power.Suppose you handle an instrument for the first time. Youwill do it very clumsily and with great effort.The next time, however, you use it, you will do so less

clumsily and with less effort. With repeated uses, youwill have learnt to use it easily and without any effort. That is,the facility and ease with which you use a particular thing increasewith the number of times you use it.

The first time a man steals, he does so with great effort andmuch fear; the next time both his effort and fear are much less. Asopportunities increase, stealing will become a normal habit with himand will require no effort at all. This habit will generate in him a

tendency to steal even when there is no necessity to steal. It isthis tendency which goes by the name vasana. The power which makesyou act as if against your will is only the vasana which itself is ofyour own making. This is not fate.

The punishment or reward, in the shape of pain or pleasure,which is theinevitable consequence of an act, good or bad, is alone the province offate or destiny.The vasana which the doing of an act leaves behind in the mind

in the shape of a taste, a greater facility or a greater tendency fordoing the same act once again, is quite a different thing.It may be that the punishment or the reward of the past act is, inordinary circumstances, unavoidable, if there is no counter-effort;

but the vasana can be easily handled if only we exercise ourfree-will correctly.D. : But the number of vasanas or tendencies that rule ourhearts are endless. How can we possibly control them?H.H. : The essential nature of a vasana is to seek

expression in outward acts. This characteristic is common to all vasanas,good and bad.The stream of vasanas, the vasana sarit, as it is called, has twocurrents, the good and the bad.If you try to dam up the entire stream, there mey be

danger.The Shastras, therefore, do not ask you to attempt that. On theother hand, they ask you to submit yourself to be led by the goodvasana current and to resist being led away by the bad vasanacurrent.

When you know that a particular vasana is rising up in yourmind, you cannot possibly say that you are at its mercy.You have your wits about you and the responsibility of decidingwhether you will encourage it or not is entirely yours.

The Shastras ennciate in detail what vasanas are good andhave to be encouraged and what vasanas are bad and have tobe overcome.When, by dint of practice, you have made all your vasanasgood and practically eliminated the charge of any bad vasanas

leading you astray, the Shastras take upon themselves thefunction of teaching you how to free your free-will even from theneed of being led by good vasanas.You will gradually be led on to a stage when your free-will

be entirely free from any sort of coloring due to any vasanas.At that stage, your mind will be pure as crystal and all motive forparticular action will cease to be. Freedom from the results ofparticular actions is an inevitable consequence. Both fate and

vasana disappear. There is freedom for ever more and thatfreedom is called Moksha.http://www.advaita- vedanta.org/ articles/ The_Riddle_ of_Fate_and_ Free.htm

--- On Sun, 8/2/09, Harshit Bapna <hrbapna wrote:

Harshit Bapna <hrbapnaRe: Is there something called as " Free Will " ?

Date: Sunday, August 2, 2009, 10:32 PM

Hi Taintedblue,

I myself is facing this issue of free will for a long time. I have discussed this issue with many learned people.

I am still struggling to get a convincing reply.

Now I feel there are some things which will remain uncertain and cannot be fully solved.

My View:

I believe in GOD. I feel GOD would have given us some free will at some points in life. We can excercise the free will only at some points in life and most of our life is already defined .

I cannot imagine that there is absolutely no free will otherwise we will be just characters in a play and GOD will not be The GOD but a mere powerfull spectator enjoying the play (enjoying the travesties & sufferings of human life).

These are difficult concepts to think or understand and everyone would have their own view. But you should find solace that you are not the only one.

There are many like us who are thinking on those lines. I feel fortunate that God has given us that power.

--harshit

On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 2:05 AM, taintedblue84 <taintedblue84@ .in> wrote:

Hey,I think a question that pops up regularly is that is there something called as free will? Many people might say yes some might say maybe but my belief is that if there is something called as Naadi there cannot be freewill. I will put up a small case study out of my life which might strengthen my opinion.

The story goes back to around 2002. This was the time i was just out of college and was struck by the smaller recession. (9/11 WTC). So out of desperation i went and met an astrologer in Delhi. She is the person who is responsible for building my faith in Astrology. Now she predicted that in the next year i would be perusing my Post graduation either in a city X in India or a Country Y. Now very surprisingly for me, the next year I did get admission to exactly 2 universities in the above mentioned cities. Finally due to some circumstances and some reasoning i choose the Indian city for my Post Graduation.

Then again now in the year 2009, I did visit a Naadi astrologer. Now his leaves suggested that i would have completed my PG from India and would be working in the computers field. Now my questions to the supporters of free will

1) Where is the free will? What i thought in 2003 to be a decision taken by my free will actually happened to be a event already written for me.2) Assuming I had decided to Go to the Country Y, I think this question doesn't even make sense. does it? I mean such a decision can transform your entire life. Does the Naadi leaves have the power to cater to such drastic Free will decisions. I mean to say my career path, my domain everything would have been different. I am just talking about the career related angle here. I am quite sure my personal life would also have been very different had i thought otherwise.

3) And as somebody has written below what about the ripple effect caused by the so called free-will decisions taken by others. I think that's where i end. This has been a long mail. For all those who have reached till here thanks for reading patiently. Do take some time to reply back.

Thanks and Regards

-- -- Harshit Bapna

August 21, 2009

dear harshit...

what i want to tell you is ....nadi astrology is a prediction made by some powerfull saints....... who looked ahead in time and made prediction. So for eg.... he would know what is going to happen to you in the year 2009 and what is going to happen in the year 2012 all well in advance...... no matter whatever and however you live and do whatever kind of deeds or karmas as you can call it.

regards

raj--- On Sun, 9/8/09, Harshit Bapna <hrbapna wrote:

Harshit Bapna <hrbapnaRe: Is there something called as "Free Will"? Date: Sunday, 9 August, 2009, 1:03 AM

Hi Rajaram,

I like the way the guru have tried to give an explaination of this tough question.

But I have few doubts in this explaination.

1) In the exceprt from your mail can you explain that the coloured part. see below

2) Also If my past actions are determining what life I will leave in this birth.

How come Nadi Astrology tries to give information about my future births since they will be dependent on my deeds in this birth?

D. : In other words, the problem of conflict will get solved only at the

end of the conflict. But at that time the problem will have ceased to

have any practical significance.

H.H. : Not only so, it will cease to exist.

D. : That is, before the conflict begins, the problem is incapable of

solution; and, after the conflict ends, it is no longer necessary to

find a solution.

H.H. : Just so. In either case, it is profitless to embark on the enquiry

as to the relative stregth of fate and free-will.

On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 12:13 PM, Rajaram Yanamandra <rajaram.yanamandra@ > wrote:

Dear Harshit / Tainted Blue ( What a name!)

The following is a very interesting and a very illuminating discussion . Have found this on a different internet group several months ago.

Hope you will find it useful and am sure you will share it with people who are also wanting to understand the conflict between free will and action .

Rajaram

Action or Destiny Action or DestinyIf you have wondered whether action or destiny rule...thefollowing conversation explains the paradox verywell...read it when you have some timeThe Riddle of Fate and Free-Will Solved(A dialogue between His Holiness Shri ChandrashekharaBharati and a Disciple): [His Holiness was the SringeriMathadhipati 1912-1954.]H.H. : I hope you are pursuing your studies in the Vedantaas usualD. : Though not regularly, I do make some occasional study.H.H. : In the

course of your studies, you may have comeacross many doubts.D. : Yes, one doubt repeatedly comes up to my mind.H.H. : What is it?D. : It is the problem of the eternal conflict between fateand free-will.What are their respective provinces and how can theconflict be avoided?H.H. : If presented in the way you have done it, theproblem would baffle even the highest of thinkers.D. : What is wrong with my presentation I only stated theproblem and did not even explain how I find it to be a difficult one.H.H. : Your difficulty arises in the very statement of theproblem.D. : How?H.H. : A conflict arises only if there are two things.There can be no conflict if there is only one thing.D. : But here there are two things, fate and free-will.H.H. : Exacly. It is this assumption of yours that isresponsible for your problem.D. : It is not my

assumption at all. How can I ignore thefact that the two things exist as independent factors, whether I granttheir existence or not?H..H. : That is where you are wrong again.D. : How?H.H. : As a follower of our Sanatana Dharma, you must knowthat fate is nothing extraneous to yourself, but only the sum total ofthe results of your past actions.As God is but the dispenser of the fruits of actions,fate, representing those fruits, is not his creation but only yours.Free-will is what you exercise when you act now.D. : Still I do not see how they are not two distinctthings.H.H. : Have it this way. Fate is past karma; free-will ispresent karma.Both are really one, that is, karma, though they maydiffer in the matter of time. There can be no conflict when they arereally one.D. : But the difference in time is a vital difference whichwe cannot possibly

overlook.H.H. : I do not want you to overlook it, but only to studyit more deeply.The present is before you and, by the exercise of free-will, you canattempt to shape it.The past is past and is therefore beyond your vision andis rightly called adrishta, the unseen. You cannot reasonablyattempt to find out the relative strength of two things unlessboth of them are before you. But, by our very definition, free-will,the present karma, alone is before you and fate, the past karma, isinvisible.Even if you see two wrestlers right in front of you, youcannot decide about their relative strength. For, one may haveweight, the other agility; one muscles and the other tenacity; one thebenefit of practice and the other coolness of judgment and so on. Wecan go on building arguments on arguments to conclude that aparticular wrestler will be the winner.But experience shows that each of

these qualifications mayfail at any time or may prove to be a disqualification. Theonly practical method of determining their relative strength will be tomake them wrestle.While this is so, how do you expect to find by means ofarguments a solution to the problem of the relative valueof fate and free-will when the former by its very nature isunseen!D. : Is there no way then of solving this problem?H..H. : There is this way. The wrestlers must fight witheach other and prove which of them is the stronger.D. : In other words, the problem of conflict will getsolved only at the end of the conflict. But at that time the problem willhave ceased to have any practical significance.H.H. : Not only so, it will cease to exist.D. : That is, before the conflict begins, the problem isincapable of solution; and, after the conflict ends, it is no longernecessary to find a

solution.H.H. : Just so. In either case, it is profitless to embarkon the enquiry as to the relative stregth of fate and free-will.A GuideD. : Does Yor Holiness then mean to say that we must resignourselves to Fate?H.H. : Certainly not. On the other hand, you must devoteyourself to free- will.D. : How can that be?H.H. : Fate, as I told you, is the resultant of the pastexercise of your free-will. By exercising your free-will in the past,you brought on the resultant fate.By exercising your free-will in the present, I want you to wipeout your past record if it hurts you, or to add to it ifyou find it enjoyable.In any case whether for acquiring more happiness or forreducing Misery you have to exercise your free-will in the present.D. : But the exercise of free-will however well-directed,very often fails to secure the desired result, as fate steps in

andnullifies the action of free-will.H.H. : You are again ignoring our definition of fate. It isnot an extraneous and a new thing which steps in to nullify yourfree-will.On the other hand, it is already in yourself.D. : It may be so, but its existence is felt only when itcomes into conflict with free-will. How can we possibly wipe out thepast record when we do not know nor have the means of knowingwhat it isH.H. : Except to a very few highly advanced souls, the pastcertainly remains unknown. But even our ignorance of it is veryoften an advantage to us.For, if we happen to know all the results we have accumulatedby our actions in this and our past lives, we will be somuch shocked as to give up in despair any attempt to overcomeor mitigate them. Even in this life, forgetfulnes is a boon which themerciful God has been pleased to bestow on us, so that we may notbe

burdened at any moment with a recollection of all that has happenedin the past.Similarly, the divine spark in us is ever bright with hope andmakes it possible for us to confidently exercise our free-will. Itis not for us to belittle the significance of these two boons--forgetfulness of the past and hope for the future.D. : Our ignorance of the past may be useful in notdeterring the exercise of the free-will, and hope may stimulate thatexercise.All the same, it cannot be denied that fate very often does present aformidable obstacle in the way of such exercise.H.H. : It is not quite correct to say that fate placesobstacles in the way of free-will. On the other hand, by seeming to opposeourefforts, it tells us what is the extent of free-will that isnecessary now to bear fruit.Ordinarily for the purpose of securing a single benefit, a particularactivity is prescribed; but we do

not know how intensively or howrepeatedlythat activity has to be pursued or pesisted in.If we do not succed at the very first attempt, we can easily deduce thatin the past we have exercised our free-will just in the opposite direction,that the resultant of that past activity has first to be eliminated andthat our present effort must be proportionate to that past activity.Thus, the obstacle which fate seems to offer is just the gaugeby which we have to guide our present activities.D. : The obstacle is seen only after the exercise of our free-will; howcan that help us to guide our activities at the start?H.H. : It need not guide us at the start. At the start, youmust not be obsessed at all with the idea that there will be anyobstacle in your way.Start with boundless hope and with the presumption that thereis nothing in the way of your exercising the free-will.If you do not

succeed, tell yourself then that there has beenin the past a counter-influence brought on by yourself byexercising your free-will in the other direction and, therefore, youmust now exercise your free-will with re-doubled vigor andpersistence to achieve your object.Tell yourself that, inasmuch as the seeming obstacle is ofyour own making, it is certainly within your competence toovercome it.If you do not succeed even after this renewed effort,there can be absolutely no justification for despair, for fate beingbut a creature of your free-will can never be stronger than yourfree-will.Your failure only means that your present exercise of free-willis not sufficient to counteract the result of the past exercise of it.In other words, there is no question of a relative proportionbetween fate and free-will as distinct factors in life.The relative proportion is only as between the

intensity of our pastaction and the intensity of our present action.D. : But even so, the relative intensity can be realisedonly at the end of our present effort in a particular direction.H.H. : It is always so in the case of everything which isadrishta or unseen. Take, for example, a nail driven into a woodenpillar. When you see it for the first time, you actually see, say, aninch of it projecting out of the pillar. The rest of it has gone intothe wood and you cannot now see what exact length of the nail isimbedded in the wood. That length, therefore, is unseen or adrishta,so far as you are concerned. Beautifully varnished as the pillar is,you do not know what is the composition of the wood in which thenail is driven. That also is unseen or adrishta.Now, suppose you want to pull that nail out, can you tell mehow many pulls will be necessary and how powerful each pull has

tobeD. : How can I? The number and the intensity of the pullswill depend upon the length which has gone into the wood.H.H. : Certainly so. And the length which has gone into thewood is not arbitrary, but depended upon the number of strokes whichdrove it in and the intensity of each of such strokes and theresistance which the wood offered to them.D. : It is so.H.H. : The number and intensity of the pulls needed to takeout the nail depend therefore upon the number and intensity of thestrokes which drove it in.D. : Yes.H..H. : But the strokes that drove in the nail are nowunseen and unseeable.They relate to the past and are adrishta.D. : Yes.H.H. : Do we stop from pulling out the nail simply becausewe happen to be ignorant of the length of the nail in the wood or of thenumber and intensity of the strokes which drove it in Or, do wepersist in

pulling it out by increasing our effortD. : Certainly, as practical men we adopt the latter course.H.H. : Adopt the same course in every effort of yours.Exert yourself as much as you can. Your will must succeed in the end.Function of Shastras:D. : But there certainly are many things which are impossible to attaineven after the utmost exertion.H.H. : There you are mistaken. There is nothing which is reallyunattainable. A thing, however, may be unattainable to us at theparticular stage at which we are, or with the> qualifications that wepossess.The attainability or otherwise of a particular thing is thusnot an absolute characteristic of that thing but isrelative and proportionate to our capacity to attain it.D. : The success or failure of an effort can be knowndefinitely only at the end. How are we then to know beforehand whether withour present capacity we may

or may not exert ourselves to attain aparticular object, and whether it is the right kind of exertion forthe attainment of that object?H.H. : Your question is certainly a pertinent one. The whole aim of ourDharma Shastras is to give a detailed answer to your question.Religion does not fetter man's free-will. It leaveshim quite free to act, but tells him at the same time what is goodfor him and what is not.The resposibility is entirely and solely his. He cannot escape it byblaming fate, for fate is of his own making, nor by blaming God, forhe is but the dispenser of fruits in accordance with the merits ofactions. You are the master of your own destiny. It is for you tomake it, to better it or to mar it. This is your privilege. This isyour responsibility.D. : I quite realise this. But often it so happens that I am not reallymaster of myself. I know, for instance, quite well that a

particularact is wrong; at the same time, I feel impelled to do it.Similarly, I know that another act is right; at the same time,however, I feel powerless to do it. It seems that there is some powerwhich is able to control or defy my free-will. So long as that power ispotent, how can I be called the master of my own destiny Whatisthat power but fateH.H. : You are evidently confusing together two distinct things. Fate is athing quite different from the other one which you call a power..Suppose you handle an instrument for the first time. Youwill do it very clumsily and with great effort.The next time, however, you use it, you will do so lessclumsily and with less effort. With repeated uses, youwill have learnt to use it easily and without any effort. That is,the facility and ease with which you use a particular thing increasewith the number of times you use it.The first time a

man steals, he does so with great effort andmuch fear; the next time both his effort and fear are much less. Asopportunities increase, stealing will become a normal habit with himand will require no effort at all.. This habit will generate in him atendency to steal even when there is no necessity to steal. It isthis tendency which goes by the name vasana. The power which makesyou act as if against your will is only the vasana which itself is ofyour own making. This is not fate.The punishment or reward, in the shape of pain or pleasure,which is theinevitable consequence of an act, good or bad, is alone the province offate or destiny.The vasana which the doing of an act leaves behind in the mindin the shape of a taste, a greater facility or a greater tendency fordoing the same act once again, is quite a different thing.It may be that the punishment or the reward of the past act is,

inordinary circumstances, unavoidable, if there is no counter-effort;but the vasana can be easily handled if only we exercise ourfree-will correctly.D. : But the number of vasanas or tendencies that rule ourhearts are endless. How can we possibly control them?H.H. : The essential nature of a vasana is to seekexpression in outward acts. This characteristic is common to all vasanas,good and bad.The stream of vasanas, the vasana sarit, as it is called, has twocurrents, the good and the bad.If you try to dam up the entire stream, there mey bedanger.The Shastras, therefore, do not ask you to attempt that. On theother hand, they ask you to submit yourself to be led by the goodvasana current and to resist being led away by the bad vasanacurrent.When you know that a particular vasana is rising up in yourmind, you cannot possibly say that you are at its mercy.You have

your wits about you and the responsibility of decidingwhether you will encourage it or not is entirely yours.The Shastras ennciate in detail what vasanas are good andhave to be encouraged and what vasanas are bad and have tobe overcome.When, by dint of practice, you have made all your vasanasgood and practically eliminated the charge of any bad vasanasleading you astray, the Shastras take upon themselves thefunction of teaching you how to free your free-will even from theneed of being led by good vasanas.You will gradually be led on to a stage when your free-willbe entirely free from any sort of coloring due to any vasanas.At that stage, your mind will be pure as crystal and all motive forparticular action will cease to be. Freedom from the results ofparticular actions is an inevitable consequence. Both fate andvasana disappear. There is freedom for ever more and thatfreedom

is called Moksha.http://www.advaita- vedanta.org/ articles/ The_Riddle_ of_Fate_and_ Free.htm--- On Sun, 8/2/09, Harshit Bapna <hrbapna (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote:

Harshit Bapna <hrbapna (AT) gmail (DOT) com>Re: Is there something called as "Free Will"?Sunday, August 2, 2009, 10:32 PM

Hi Taintedblue,

I myself is facing this issue of free will for a long time. I have discussed this issue with many learned people.

I am still struggling to get a convincing reply.

Now I feel there are some things which will remain uncertain and cannot be fully solved.

My View:

I believe in GOD. I feel GOD would have given us some free will at some points in life. We can excercise the free will only at some points in life and most of our life is already defined .

I cannot imagine that there is absolutely no free will otherwise we will be just characters in a play and GOD will not be The GOD but a mere powerfull spectator enjoying the play (enjoying the travesties & sufferings of human life).

These are difficult concepts to think or understand and everyone would have their own view. But you should find solace that you are not the only one.

There are many like us who are thinking on those lines. I feel fortunate that God has given us that power.

--harshit

On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 2:05 AM, taintedblue84 <taintedblue84@ .in> wrote:

Hey,I think a question that pops up regularly is that is there something called as free will? Many people might say yes some might say maybe but my belief is that if there is something called as Naadi there cannot be freewill. I will put up a small case study out of my life which might strengthen my opinion. The story goes back to around 2002. This was the time i was just out of college and was struck by the smaller recession.. (9/11 WTC). So out of desperation i went and met an astrologer in Delhi. She is the person who is responsible for building my faith in Astrology. Now she predicted that in the next year i would be perusing my Post graduation either in a city X in India or a Country Y. Now very surprisingly for me, the next year I did get admission to exactly 2 universities in the above mentioned cities. Finally due to some circumstances and some reasoning i choose the Indian city for my Post Graduation. Then again now

in the year 2009, I did visit a Naadi astrologer. Now his leaves suggested that i would have completed my PG from India and would be working in the computers field. Now my questions to the supporters of free will1) Where is the free will? What i thought in 2003 to be a decision taken by my free will actually happened to be a event already written for me.2) Assuming I had decided to Go to the Country Y, I think this question doesn't even make sense. does it? I mean such a decision can transform your entire life. Does the Naadi leaves have the power to cater to such drastic Free will decisions. I mean to say my career path, my domain everything would have been different. I am just talking about the career related angle here. I am quite sure my personal life would also have been very different had i thought otherwise. 3) And as somebody has written below what about the ripple effect caused by the so called free-will decisions

taken by others. I think that's where i end. This has been a long mail. For all those who have reached till here thanks for reading patiently. Do take some time to reply back. Thanks and Regards

-- -- Harshit Bapna

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