Guest guest Posted July 27, 2000 Report Share Posted July 27, 2000 Jaya Jagannath Dear Narasimha, Once again you talk of GMT. What is GMT? Simply because one of the longitudes happens to pass near the house of the Queen (No ofence meant please) does not mean it has any significance. Forget GMT. LMT is fully independant of GMT. It is the Local time of a place. If I take Delhi, then12 Noon LMT is the time when the meridian is at the apex and 6 AM is six hours before this Noon and 6 PM is 6 hours after this Noon. This has NOTHING TO DO WITH GMT. can't you get this? If you want to call 6 AM LMT as 00 Hora local time, then it is fine with me and I would whole heartedly agree with this. Aho Ratra means Day & Night and that is 24 hours. With Best Wishes, Sanjay Rath - Narasimha Rao <pvr <varahamihira > Thursday, July 27, 2000 8:43 PM [sri Guru] Why called hora? > Pranaam Gurudeva, > > > Om Datta Guru > > Dear Beatrice, > > The concept of time is not based on Sunrise. If it were so, > then time > > could not be linear and we can never define the " Astronomical > events with > > any accuracy " unless we all had very perfect calculations about > sunrise in > > everyplace. > > Of course, I will not question the importance of linear > time. I am not talking about time in general, which has > multiple ways of measuring it. > > My only problem is with reference to hora as a measure > of time. Kalyana Verma clearly stated that " hora " comes > from " ahoratra " (day & night). If you start a new > weekday and its first hora at 6 am LMT, there is no > relation between " day & night " and horas at all. Kindly > explain why it called " hora " . The standard definition > of hora based on sunrise makes horas align with ahoratra. > Calling it hora is logical then. > > Secondly, you talked about nice integer numbers when I > pointed out the arbitrariness of 6 am LMT. However, it > all depends on the standardization, which was rather > arbitrary. Though you are taking time in LMT, its value > has a one-to-one correspondence with the standardization > of GMT time. If the standardization was done a little > differently, what you call a " nice integer " now, could > have been a non-integer. If you advocate hora to be a > linear measure of time, I can understand it. But using > " 6 am LMT " is arbitrary. I can't understand why you > don't seem to appreciate this simple point. > > Regarding the fixed/variable length of ghatis, you did > not comment on my point. Longitude of lagna is a > continuous function of time. If the longitudes of BL, > HL and GL are continuous functions of time *except* for > some slight *discontinuity* at sunrise (i.e. sudden > jump), does it make sense to you? Doesn't it make you > uncomfortable? > > Regarding the supposed problem with " horas based on > sunrise " at poles, I did some thinking and I have no > problem with it. If one ahas and one raatra are long, > then ahoratra is long and horas are long. Why is it > unacceptable? You asked " how can Parasara teach > something that is not universal " . Everyone simply > accepted your view that there is some problem at poles > if we take sunrise. However, I question that premise. > It is a problem only if one thinks that way. > > Your sishya, > Narasimha > > > > > > OM TAT SAT > Archive: varahamihira > Info: varahamihira/info.html > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2000 Report Share Posted July 28, 2000 Pranaam Sanjay, I miscalculated. I should have written 320 minutes= 5 hr 20 min. So the GMT times I gave should be moved by 1 hour. But my basic point remains. > If a place is 80 deg east of GMT, then its local mean time > is 80x4=320 minutes=6 hr 20 min ahead of GMT. If GMT is > defined in such a way that it is 11:40 pm now, then LMT at > that place is 6:00 am. If GMT was standardized slightly > differently and it is 11:42 pm now, then LMT at our place > (80 deg east) will be 6:02 am instead. > > LMT of a given place at a given moment has a one-to-one > correspondence with GMT. It is not fully independent of > GMT. Your sishya, Narasimha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2000 Report Share Posted July 28, 2000 Jaya Jagannath Dear Narasimha, I find it rasther amusing that keep on arguing about something like this instead of looking up a simple geography book and trying to get the point. The LMT can have a one to one not only with GMT but with any time zone. For example try to calculate the LMT for Delhi from say Boston time Zone or say Moscow zone. The result is the same. With Best Wishes, Sanjay Rath - Narasimha Rao <pvr <varahamihira > Friday, July 28, 2000 4:12 AM [sri Guru] Re: Why called hora? > Pranaam Sanjay, > > I miscalculated. I should have written 320 minutes= > 5 hr 20 min. So the GMT times I gave should be moved > by 1 hour. But my basic point remains. > > > If a place is 80 deg east of GMT, then its local mean time > > is 80x4=320 minutes=6 hr 20 min ahead of GMT. If GMT is > > defined in such a way that it is 11:40 pm now, then LMT at > > that place is 6:00 am. If GMT was standardized slightly > > differently and it is 11:42 pm now, then LMT at our place > > (80 deg east) will be 6:02 am instead. > > > > LMT of a given place at a given moment has a one-to-one > > correspondence with GMT. It is not fully independent of > > GMT. > > Your sishya, > Narasimha > > > > > > OM TAT SAT > Archive: varahamihira > Info: varahamihira/info.html > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2000 Report Share Posted July 28, 2000 Pranaam Sanjay, This is not " amusing " to me. I said LMT has a one-to-one correspondence with GMT (I did not say " with only GMT " ). First you said LMT is fully independent of GMT. Now you are saying that it has a 1-to-1 correspondence with GMT and not only with GMT but with any timezone. OF COURSE, that's true. But the point you are missing is this: Time as per all the time zones depends on the way GMT was standardized. Based on the location of a place, its difference from GMT (or from any time zone) can be clearly found. However, the exact time (e.g. 6 am) at a place is not independently defined. If the people who standardized GMT made the time a little different, then the time in all time zones would change accordingly. As a result, LMT time at every place would change accordingly. What we call " 6 am LMT at New Delhi on a given date now " could have been called " 6:02 am LMT at New Delhi on the same date " . So my point is that the way you are defining horas is based on an arbitrary standardization. There is nothing *sacred* about 6 am LMT at any place. The exact time at which we say that it is 6 am LMT at a place would've been slightly different, if GMT was defined slightly differently. If you think that LMT at a place is independent of the standardization of GMT and 6 am LMT on a given day would fall at the same moment in time irrespective of the way GMT was standardized, you should carefully think again. That is simply wrong. You are missing a simple point. Please think carefully before telling me that this is amusing and advising me to refer to a geography book. Your sishya, Narasimha > Jaya Jagannath > Dear Narasimha, > I find it rasther amusing that keep on arguing about something like this > instead of looking up a simple geography book and trying to get the point. > The LMT can have a one to one not only with GMT but with any time zone. For > example try to calculate the LMT for Delhi from say Boston time Zone or say > Moscow zone. The result is the same. > With Best Wishes, > Sanjay Rath Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 30, 2000 Report Share Posted July 30, 2000 >the Sun's crossing the midheaven is not an arbitrary point in time >but coincides a >natural phenomenon occurring in all longitudes of the earth. It would seem that midheaven = 12 noon is an observable phenomenon, for every single longitude degree on the planet, only on the equinox day at the equator. That's why a flat figure (6 hours) or a quotient is needed to determine LMT cycles at other locations along the same meridian ending just short of the poles -- the poles themselves would be the points at which all meridians meet. Besides, daylight saving times would make the official, conventional, man-made local time differ more from a natural, deva-made 12 noon midheaven. >[...] the only way to arrive to a circle divided into 12 equal Rasis >and 24 equal >Horas is based on the movement of the Midheaven around the zodiac. Again, the perfect 24 Hora cycle would only be observable at the equator on an equinox day. This is my current understanding. I wish to be corrected by those with higher knowledge. Beatrice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 6, 2000 Report Share Posted August 6, 2000 Jaya JagannathDear Gauranga, Your understanding is correct, but for a few technical points. What you say as ascendant is actually the BHAVA LAGNA which moves @ 1 degree in 4 minutes. The Sun is the Naisargika Atmakaraka and the visiblity of the Sun's upper limb has been used for Poojas and Yagna since time immemorial. The most important point is that the SUN is the Creator or the cause of the Lagna. If there was no Sun (figureatively, Atma or Vishnu) then there would be no need for a body. This is the explanation for the traditional use of the measurement of the time in Ghatika's from Sunrise. Thus if a baby is to be born, then it is the Atma that comes forst and then it enters food, from food to sperm, from sperm to egg and from egg to baby. Thus the Atma causes the Lagna to come into existance. Hence all measurement of Astrological time for the sake of explanation of individual births is from the Sun. However, the Yuga and others are explained on the basis of time. These affect individuals, but are not dependant on the individuals. Thus when Jaimini asks us to measure the Birth time from Sunrise or Sunset to determine the sex of the child, he is teaching an important lesson in giving the primacy to the Atma. He is also teaching a second very important lesson that the Sunrise (symbolising first house) or the sunset (symbolising seventh house) are the two houses of the Satya Peetha as these symbolise the Sun or the house aspected by the Sun (7th). This is the basis for choosing the stronger between the first and seventh house for the starting of all the various types of Rasi Dasa. These two houses become Satya Peetha and the Maya Pada (Arudha Pada) cannot fall in these houses. Thus this also teaches that the Arudha Pada of any house cannot fall in the same house or the seventh from it. With Best Wishes,Sanjay Rath - Gauranga Das <gauranga <varahamihira > Friday, July 28, 2000 8:12 PM Re: [sri Guru] Re: Why called hora? > JAYA JAGANNATHA!> > Dear Gurudeva and Narasimha,> > Pranaams.> > > I am afraid that statement is totally wrong. Local mean time> > (atleast as you computed it in your example) is not "fully> > independent" of GMT. Not at all.> >> > If a place is 80 deg east of GMT, then its local mean time> > is 80x4=320 minutes=6 hr 20 min ahead of GMT. If GMT is> > defined in such a way that it is 11:40 pm now, then LMT at> > that place is 6:00 am. If GMT was standardized slightly> > differently and it is 11:42 pm now, then LMT at our place> > (80 deg east) will be 6:02 am instead.> >> > LMT of a given place at a given moment has a one-to-one> > correspondence with GMT. It is not fully independent of> > GMT.> > I would like to know whether my understanding is correct or not on the following:> > GMT is local mean time for Greenwich, i.e. 12.00 GMT is local noon at Greenwich. The> Ascendant covers the whole zodiac in 24 hours, thus making a 360 degree circle. 24 hours> is 1440 minutes, and this divided by 360 is 4 minutes per degree. So the midheaven (the> point of the Sun's crossing the meridian of the place) moves with the same angular speed> (1 degree per 4 minutes) and therefore this is the equation for calculating the local mean> time for any longitude on the earth. So we might say that GMT is arbitrary, but if we take> any other point, the equation will be the same and give the same result. Therefore the> point of beginning (0 deg longitude) may be any point and LMT may be calculated from it,> be it Greenwich or Ujjain or whatever other place.> > And the Sun's crossing the midheaven is not an arbitrary point in time but coincides a> natural phenomenon occurring in all longitudes of the earth.> > Why Hora? Hora means a half of a sign (15 degrees) and there are 24 of them in the whole> zodiac. So if we take that the Lagna or Midheaven of whatever fixed point of the place> takes exactly 24 Horas to go around the zodiac, then it is more clear why we link the> Horas not to the SUN, but to the MIDHEAVEN. A Hora is the definition based on the Rasi.> And Rasis (especially in the sidereal zodiac) are not based on the Sun, but on the> Nakshatras. So the only way to arrive to a circle divided into 12 equal Rasis and 24 equal> Horas is based on the movement of the Midheaven around the zodiac.> > The movement of the Sun differs a bit, that's why if the Rasis are determined on the basis> of the Sun's position, we arrive to the Tropical Zodiac, which shifts compared to the> sidereal.> > I have only one question after this: Why is the birth tme calculated in Ghatikas from the> Sunrise? this measurement is clearly based on the Sun, and 60 ghatis (especially as they> are equal to 24 Horas) would almost never match a Solar day (lasting from sunrise to> sunrise), only on the days of equinox. Even then in the spring it may differ a bit from> the autumn one.> > So what is the significance in measuring the birth time from sunrise? How do they do that> in the poles?> > Your shishya, Gauranga das> > > --<e|-> Go to Maingate.com to improve the quality of military life.> http://click./1/7635/9/_/2192/_/964798206/> --|e>-> > OM TAT SAT> Archive: varahamihira> Info: varahamihira/info.html> > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2000 Report Share Posted August 27, 2000 Dear Gurudev, My respectful obeisances. Jaya Jagannath! He is also teaching a second very important lesson that the Sunrise (symbolising first house) or the sunset (symbolising seventh house) are the two houses of the Satya Peetha as these symbolise the Sun or the house aspected by the Sun (7th). This is the basis for choosing the stronger between the first and seventh house for the starting of all the various types of Rasi Dasa. WOnderful understanding! Two questions in this regard. What if the 7th is stronger? This means that the sunset is more essensial in the case of the individual. Using the symbolism of the Sun and atma what will that mean? And another one - what to do with the poor guys who live near the Poles. Do their atma never "rise"? your sisya Yasomatinandana das Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 2000 Report Share Posted September 4, 2000 Jaya Jagannath Dear Gauranga, I am giving an important lesson out here. The Sunrise or Lagna is Birth and presided by Brahma, whereas the Sunset is akin to Shiva/ death or end of life and is the other door through which the Atma leaves. Strength is due to the association of Narayana. If Narayana is with Brahma, then He is stronger, if with Shiva, then Shiva is stronger. The rules only help us to determine the side on which Bhagavan is for that side alone is victorious all the time. " Jaya " can ONLY be associated with " Jagannath " or Bhagavan. Now, the Lagna or seventh being stronger only shows which of the two Satya Peetha associate with Bhagavan, it does not dilute the Satya or Truth. In Pooja it will indicate whether the Morning Prayer or evening POrayer is more important. If the Lagna is stronger, then worship Bhagavan more ardently in the morning, while if the seventh is stronger, then in the evening at the sandhya pooja. It also indicates the mood of Bhagavan. In real life, the Lagna in strength shows that the association with Bhagavan is preferred through a " Male Guide " or Guru whereas if the seventh is stronger, then this association with Bhagavan is preferred through a female guide " Shakti " . Such persons with stronger Lagna will prefer words like " Jaya " or " Shri " prefixed before the name of Bhagavan like " Jaya Jagannath " preferred by me (Lagna stronger with Jupiter). On the other hand Srinivas Raju prefers " Hare Krishna " as his 7th house is stronger with saturn. similarly, Srila Prabhupada preferred " Hare Krishna " or " Radhe Krishna " as in His chart, the seventh house is stronger with Saturn (Tamas removal Shakti Radhika- Hara/Hari/Hare) in it. You will find the names of the eight Queens in my book (VRA) under the Krishna Mantra's. If any planet is in the seventh , then prefix this name to that of Krishna and the native will progress rapidly into the Bhakti Marga. As regards the poles, let us be clear that the Hora is for " ONE HOUR " each and is started from six hours before astrological Noon. Thus their Atma rises and sleeps at the given six hours before and after the Mid day. Mid day is the most important reference as it represents Vishnu Gayatri, being the strongest. It (He) is Achyuta (or unchangable) whereas the other Gayatri's may change. With Best Wishes, Sanjay Rath - Yasomatinandana das <yasomati <varahamihira > Sunday, August 27, 2000 7:36 AM Re: [sri Guru] Re: Why called hora? Dear Gurudev, My respectful obeisances. Jaya Jagannath! He is also teaching a second very important lesson that the Sunrise (symbolising first house) or the sunset (symbolising seventh house) are the two houses of the Satya Peetha as these symbolise the Sun or the house aspected by the Sun (7th). This is the basis for choosing the stronger between the first and seventh house for the starting of all the various types of Rasi Dasa. WOnderful understanding! Two questions in this regard. What if the 7th is stronger? This means that the sunset is more essensial in the case of the individual. Using the symbolism of the Sun and atma what will that mean? And another one - what to do with the poor guys who live near the Poles. Do their atma never " rise " ? your sisya Yasomatinandana das Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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